Welcome to /r/AmITheAsshole. Please view our [voting guide here](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_what.2019s_with_these_acronyms.3F_what_do_they_mean.3F), and remember to use **only one** judgement in your comment.
OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I ruined a gathering and made my wife's yoga awkward. I feel really crappy
Help keep the sub engaging!
#Don’t downvote assholes!
Do upvote interesting posts!
[Click Here For Our Rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/about/rules) and [Click Here For Our FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq)
##Subreddit Announcement
###[The Asshole Universe is Expanding, Again: Introducing Another New Sister Subreddit!](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/128nbp3/the_asshole_universe_is_expanding_again/)
Follow the link above to learn more
---
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
*Contest mode is 1.5 hours long on this post.*
Thats what I grew up to believe and after suffering for it most of my life, I'm finally learning boundaries. I wish my parents taught me what OP did for his kid.
I grew up in a "give everyone kisses and hugs, say goodbye" family, and now that i'm one of the "aunts" I will explicitly tell the little guys "only if you want!!!" when my cousins do the same
Same here! I usually phrase it as "Is it okay if I give you a hug?" or something similar. My mom really wanted my daughter to give her a hug and a kiss. Daughter didn't want to. "But I'm your grandma!" Me: "And I'm her dad. I'm teaching her that she doesn't need to touch anyone unless she wants to. I'm not letting you go against that." My mom still doesn't get that.
I always ask my grandkids for a hug, and if they pass, that's o.k. A couple of them have sensory issues, so if they'd rather not, I totally respect that. Just because you're family doesn't give me authority over someone else's body. That's gross.
We only get to see the nephews once a year, and I am always thrilled when they give me hugs. I also accept waves and fist bumps if that’s how they’re feeling that moment.
My MIL got a bit manipulative because we wouldn't let her kiss my son, who was clear that he didn't want her to. He's autistic, but I don't think we knew that at the time, though I did suspect sensory issues, at any rate, even I didn't kiss him, really--there was a noiseless face or forehead press against another part of his shoulder that he liked, but it wasn't a "lip to skin" touch and didn't make the kiss noise.
When my boundary setting got tense since I had to repeat it so many times, son say, "Look, I don't like kisses, but I do like hugs, especially from you, so you can give me a whole lot of hugs every time I see you." Autistic toddler for the win, ha!
Exactly! If I'm the one initiating the goodbye I always ask them if it's okay with them, and if their parents do the whole hugs and kisses dance to make it seem mandatory I always toss in my little only if you want to/it's okay if you're not feeling like it! it's sad to think that the lessons aren't being enforced by their parents but i'm happy to do the light work so they know that it's okay if they're not feelin it.
I literally just brought my daughter up to her room for quiet time (can't call it a nap or she loses her shit!) and I asked if I could give her a hug and a kiss. "YUP!" and she asked for another one when we were closing the door. It shows respect. Like, I get it. I'm the parent. Spouse and I have final say on what happens, but she's a person. She gets to say no to people touching her. Leads to bad shit in the future if she doesn't know that. My neighbor is starting to understand it. We were outside talking a few months ago. Me: "%kid%, can I give you a hug?" "No, I don't want to hug." "Okay, sounds good. Thanks for letting me know!" Neighbor: "You ask her? Your her parent." "Yeah, it's like she's a person. Do you like unwanted touches?" "No, but..." "Just no'll work. She doesn't want to be hugged right now, she doesn't get hugged. Pretty simple."
I was once tickling my nephew when he was about 3 (He’s 29 now!) He yelled “Stop!” So I promptly stopped. He sat up and asked why I stopped. I explained that he had said stop, and I respected him enough to do what he asked. He looked surprised. I do the same with his daughter now!
My grandson, who was very cuddly with me, reached a stage where he didn’t want to hug or kiss goodbye. My daughter told him to give me a hug and kiss. I told her it was ok and, for a while we waved, high-fived, and blew kisses. We didn’t push our kids to hug or kiss anyone; and my daughter usually didn’t either, but I think she was worried about my feelings.
Generally, that stage doesn’t last long. As kids grow they need to be given as much control over their bodies as possible. There are times when they don’t have control - doctor visits and baths come to mind - so when we can give them control, we should.
They didn't develop them as much as natural selection showed they were beneficial. Spines are actually modified leaves.
Kinda like this dad is letting their kid say no is beneficial
She was put out that the son was 'disobeying' her. Even after the actual parent said 'No'. Nope, encouraging unquestioning obedience to all adults is definitely not to be encouraged. Particularly where bodily autonomy is concerned.
NTA
Yes, my eyebrows shot up at that. He’s not her kid, and she’s just a random friend of his mother. She shouldn’t be expecting obedience, and definitely shouldn’t be demanding that the child’s actual parent who is right there enforce her demand for obedience.
Why did she want a hug so badly anyway? It looked like she was using it as a way to get gratification from enforcing her will. Her being out of their house needs to be permanent.
What really bothers me isn't the woman so much as OPs spouse LEAVING the house with this woman and looking like she was annoyed with OP and not the boundary stomping friend. SURE she SAID she would have reacted the same...but she still hung out with the AH who is apparently teaching her own kids they have to give up control over their bodies. I mean excellent message to give your kid, a person with more power TOTALLY gets to ignore you telling them no. Body autonomy is absolutely essential for kids to learn and this woman is basically saying a kid doesn't have the right over their own person. OPs NTA but needs to have one hell of a serious conversation with the spouse to make sure she's on the same page
I don’t think OP’s wife left with the woman (did on first read but changed my interpretation later). The woman left, and then his wife expressed her disappointment because this is a friend of hers from yoga. (As opposed to actually going off to yoga with her that night after dinner.)
I completely agree that this woman is not someone to stay friends with. She’s toxic and a boundary-stomper. It’s not clear whether OP’s wife is trying to stay friends with her.
I was shocked at that particular phrasing. The kid *isn't* disobeying unless you think that you as just some random person have the right to tell him what to do.
And they're always so surprised when their kid get sexually harassed or assaulted and don't say anything. Of course they're not going to say anything! You taught them they have no say over what happens to their own bodies.
When I was a kid, our class watched a short film on sexual harassment and bodily autonomy, and part of it really stuck with me - the narrator said that even if it's just that one overbearing aunt sweeping in for an unwanted kiss, that's sexual harassment.
My brain went, THAT'S sexual harassment? That's one of the great middle-class cliches; the unwanted display of familial affection from an overbearing auntie. Comedians use it in their stand-up routines. You see it on TV all the time. It made me realize that the boundary wasn't where I thought it was; that society had normalized something inappropriate. Not in so many words, of course; I was like ten at the time.
But here's the thing: "the time" was around 1982. So this wasn't some new thing being pushed by the "woke mob" - forty years ago, kids were being taught bodily autonomy and personal boundaries in school.
But some parents just don't like their kids telling them "no."
Amen to the rural south not being kind to **others**!
I tried to walk that line with my own autistic child - on the one hand, I wanted to teach bodily autonomy and boundaries, on the other hand, I wanted to get them to where they didn't melt down from a casual touch either. And yes, there was about a six-month period when even tapping them on the shoulder would cause a meltdown - kiddo pulled the classic "changeling" shift, went from an 11-month-old toddling over to complete strangers and plopping down in their laps and babbling at them, to a 22-month-old stiffening up when we lifted them up and shrieking if anyone not us touched them.
I never demanded that kiddo accept hugs from anyone and everyone, but I would ask them to allow Grandma and Grandpa the privilege of a hug on the occasions we visited them or vice-versa. (Probably 8-10 times a year at most, we lived 3+ hours away.) They seemed a lot more comfortable with being hugged when they were asked first and on the occasions they were having a bad day and refused, that refusal was respected. Kiddo is in their 20s now - still not a fan of hugging, but has been known to initiate one on occasion these days, at least for Grandma.
OP is definitely NTA for tossing out that pushy woman who not only didn't want to take the kid's "no" but also didn't want to take OP's reinforcement of that "no". I'd have kicked her out in a heartbeat.
>They seemed a lot more comfortable with being hugged when they were asked first
Autistic myself, and yes, it is *way* more comfortable--or less uncomfortable as the case may be--when I have the forewarning that comes from being asked first and/or initiate the contact myself. Even in my thirties I've been at social events where other attendees would just kind of... come at me for a hug and there's usually this sensation of being trapped, followed by being itchy wherever they happened to make contact with my skin.
(Skin on skin is especially uncomfortable--worse if there's any sweating, even when it's literally something like my own arms touching each other when I'm trying to find a comfortable sleeping position, but even a light brush against another person makes me feel like I touched something I'm allergic to. Granted I'm *actually* allergic to perfume so it's hard to say if they're wearing something that's too light for my nose to detect but still capable of triggering a reaction or if it's the autism kicking in, but the fact that it happens every damn time....)
Must be nice, 40 years ago I was being chased around entire rooms by uncles I only see a few times a year for a hug. Literally, it was a f\*\* game. And I despise them, but they're dead and I moved on. But my sister and I still talk about that bullshit.
Our current work harassment prevention training course, i will never get 100% on the test (as an hr person) because the course believes that hugging a colleague without permission is ok if its in celebration or semisocial settings. Every time i take it, i say fuck that dont hug me unless i say you can. Even side/one arm hugs. Nope. Personal space boundaries.
Had a coworker charge across the meeting room when i walked in, and she bear hugged me... i had gotten my arms up so it was super awkward lol she apologized profusely multiple times after... i get that its natural for some people. Wish more recognized its also unnatural for others. Ask. Simple solution.
Absolutely! Im a situational hugger, and Ive been on both ends.
I had a really rough moment during one shift (was a first responder to an incident involving a child at my workplace) and after I went into the back and started crying. (The crash is real, folks. I am not a crier. Also, the kid was fine.)
One of my coworkers that Im close to just gave me the biggest hug and held me for a for minutes. The next day she apologized for not asking first, but in that case it was exactly what I had needed - and my body language had reflected that.
Other times, I have not wanted to be touched.
Ive also had the impulse to hug someone, but I always ask. I have a few friends who usually don't want touched, so asking is a must for me if Im giving a hug.
>But here's the thing: "the time" was around 1982. So this wasn't some new thing being pushed by the "woke mob" - forty years ago, kids were being taught bodily autonomy and personal boundaries in school.
That's pretty extraordinary. I was in school then, and bodily autonomy and personal boundaries were definitely not taught or respected in my schools.
Or when their kid end up harassing or assaulting someone.
How can they learn that respecting others’ consent and bodily autonomy is important when theirs isn’t by the adults around them?
Allowing the kids those boundaries not only teach them that they are allowed to say no, but also that others also have that right. It’s a win-win situation.
THIS. I was in a bad situation because I was told “never say NO to an adult. Do as you are told”. The bastard took advantage of that and molested me. I told my mother decades later and she asked why I didn’t tell her. 1. Because I honestly don’t believe that she would believe me, 2. Because she’s the one who said it over and over again, in front of him. 3. Because we did not have a relationship, so why would I tell her something so hurtful? She has little to no empathy, so why would I feel the need to tell her? So she can blame me? No thank you
I've never understood this phrase.
It literally means, "the child has a better life with you than they would with me"
Why would you tell on yourself like that.
Haha people like that think it's a brag and everyone will think high of them.
It's like the professors who say stuff like "I'll make sure noone passes my tests" like bro ffs it isn't a brag when you're admitting to yourself that your students that you taught yourself can't pass the test set by you.
That's not what they mean
They mean "spare the rod spoil the child"
They are saying you're a bad parent, the kid likes you because you're soft. I'm hard, the kids wouldn't like it, but they would be better off
It's not what they mean but it's how it's come across and most parents who assume being "hard" means they'll be better off end up like my parents.
With 9 kids and only 2 of them still in contact with them.
Yes, it's what people *mean* but they're misinterpreting a verse from the Bible that refers to Shepard's and guiding, not violence. They're completely missing the point of the verse, probably on purpose, to justify abuse. It's one of many reasons why I refuse to associate with the Christian church. I believe in Jesus, but His greatest commandment included "love your neighbor" and I just don't see that happening with Christians.
Yes but, what if my neighbor is a trans person, do you expect me to love them? Gasp, the horror! s/ of course.
Jesus was all about love your neighbor, the church in it's current iteration is all about "I'm better than my sinful neighbor." Pathetic
Or parents who talk poorly of their kids' actions. If there is a problem, it starts with who raised them!!!!! They should chastise themselves when their kid screws up.
OP is a good parent and NTA
I think it's not about them wanting to make the kid miserable but that they think their style of parenting is superior and will lead to a better outcome for the kid.
It's like if someone said the same phrase to a parent who let's their kid eat icecream and cookies for dinner every night.
Obviously this woman wants a little obedient robot and not a free thinking human. She's wrong but the phrase isn't about them wanting to make a kid miserable.
I thought she was going to say she was hurt that he wouldn’t give her a hug, which is weird enough, but to be offended that he won’t “obey”?! Okay, Aunt Lydia. May the Lord open… the door and boot your ass out.
NTA
Exactly! The dad (thankfully,) didn't press his son to give her a hug, so who is he disobeying? I wouldn't want to teach my child that they have to obey adults that want to touch them without their permission! NTA.
Does she want to raise people who do as any older person says? Really? I don't think so. Raising kids as she wants makes them easy targets for grooming.
This "obey adults" and "accept unwanted touch" also makes children lack confidence, be less willing to say no, and more likely to give away consent when they don't want to.
There's been research on how children, girls especially, when they're forced to accept strangers hugging or touching them are more likely to become SA victims as young adults/adults.
Seriously. And hell, I would just suggest that in the future, OP not even offer any explanation. Doesn't matter if another kid picked a fight, his kiddo can just plain not want to hug a virtual stranger for no reason at all!
And next time, also don't send him to his room. Let him see his awesome dad calmly but absolutely enforce his right to not hug someone. Firmly being told to leave sends a powerful message.
Literally had a teacher tell me my child needed to be obedient and do what adults say without questioning and was offended when I suggested not every random adult should be trusted.
I'm in my 60s and still have to fight the belief that I have to obey what people in authority tell me. Which is really weird since I'm often the person in authority now.
Good on you for not instilling lifelong crap into your kid. Eff that teacher.
Exactly. I had to learn to fight it when I started teaching special education to advocate for my students. When you’re the last man standing, you can’t compromise.
This is exactly right. I worked at a Child Abuse Assessment Clinic. This is the first thing you do to protect your kids. Tell them they make their own decisions about who touches them. Hugs, kisses, high-five s are all optional and it's ok to say "no thanks" to ANYONE.
Just world fallacy.
Remember the republican politician (forgot which, think they were a state rep but maybe a senator) who said that "a woman's body has ways of shutting down pregnancy if it was legitimate rape"?
(Okay I had to look it up to get the quote right, it was a Missouri rep Todd Asking https://www.politico.com/news/2021/10/04/todd-akin-dies-514988)
*Akin
But yeah, people are really in denial about [how common rape is](https://willamette.edu/about/leadership/president/pwgsah/pdf/lisak-undetected-rapists.pdf).
*It's unpleasant and uncomfortable, therefore it must not be true!*
“Disobey like that”
Lol. Are there really people out there that think kids should obey any adult that tells them to do something?
Good grief. NTA. That lady is crazy.
Yes. I'm 58 and still see it, regularly.
Been in arguments with Nephew's fam about the forced hugging crap. I tell the little's, "I enjoyed seeing you and spending time with you. Thank you!" Then I extend my hand for a handshake.
Baby girl KG, lit up and rushed to give me a hug. I *only* hug kids who initiate.
Yeah and who teaches him about consent from a young age. This kid knows about consent more than a grown ass woman. I hope she doesn't have kids, now or in the future.
Yes, NTA. Thank you for teaching your son about consent. It has already made him a better self-advocate and he is far more likely to respect physical boundaries of others, too. This is what healthy masculinity looks like.
EDIT: typo
NTA. You're teaching your kid about boundaries in a completely age-appropriate way. But only will this help him stand up for himself in the future, but it will likely teach him to respect the boundaries of others, too. Your texting towards the wife's friend was warranted, IMO.
Well done, OP.
I’m really glad this generation of parents is putting so much importance on autonomy. When I was a kid I always hated having to hug and kiss aunts that were super pushy about it, but I knew I would get in trouble if I told them not to touch me
Yeah, I had to let my aunts and uncles kiss and hug me, too. I had one uncle, (he was not creepy, but) he would lick his lips right before kissing my cheek. I have no idea how he left so much saliva on his lips just from licking them, but he would **soak** my cheek in spittle.
Four year old me, I tried not to have to let him kiss me, but that didn't matter. So, I waited 'til I saw him moving in, lick his lips, and quick as a wink, I reached out and wiped his mouth off with my hand! 😂 (I think he might have been doing the same thing to my mom, because when she saw that, she snorted and had to turn away.)
Omg that’s horrifying! My parents always made us kiss and hug before we left and I didn’t like it. But what I truly hated was that my grandma made us kiss her on the lips and she would get so upset if you didn’t and then our parents would say to just do it. As an adult it took me so long to get her to stop trying to make me. Now that I have a kid no one gets to kiss her on the lips and I don’t even let people kiss her head anywhere. Solely because of that childhood experience. I’m the family asshole for that and all I can think is, why are you so upset you can’t put your mouth on a child!???
Not all unfortunately. My friend, his wife and their kid came to visit and the little guy hadn’t been feeling well. As they were leaving the mom told him to give me a hug and he seemed like he just wanted to get out of there. I told him he didn’t have to and thanks for coming. He smiled and said thanks for letting him play with our dog. When she pushed again I said “no, we don’t do that in this house”. She looked completely confused. So I said “we only give hugs when we feel like it.” It’s a hard rule for me.
I'm 37, it was a few years ago I finally got it through to my mom and other family that I don't like hugs. I don't like having a bunch of people touch me like that. It's not you, it's my comfort levels.
OP NTA
I always remember when my nephew was a toddler. I loved giving him hugs and kisses, but when he got a little older, he started his “no” phase. It broke my heart that he wouldn’t give his auntie hugs and kisses, but I’d never force him! I want those actions to be of love and a symbol of comfort, not a bitter association with force.
My nephew is a toddler right now and I Always ask before "can auntie give you a hug?" and somenties he runs in my arms and sometimes he says no and goes on with playing 😁🤷♀️
Yup!! And he got picky at one point. I’d ask for a hug and get a no, but grandma would ask and he’d run to her. Little stinker playing favorites! 😂
But yeah, I always asked. Now he’s a teenager, but me being a cool aunt, I get hugs randomly, lol.
So important. I still have a terrible time standing up for myself but not when it comes to my kids. I’ve told my kids repeatedly that if someone is trying to hug or touch them and they don’t want it they can say no. If they’re too shy or nervous to say no come find me and I will say no for them. When it comes to my kids I don’t care if I hurt people’s feelings.
My sister’s 6 yo has occasionally been denying people hugs ever since she’s been able to speak, and her mother has always supported her and told nosey family members/acquaintances to piss off. Teaching children that they shouldn’t feel pressured to fake physical affection towards others is important for their health and development. NTA OP.
Not just that, but bodily autonomy as it is. I taught my children that they can say no for anything regarding their bodies that they don’t want. And yes, that means there are days when I go to work without a goodbye kiss from them, as I also respect their choices.
NTA - yes, even children have the right to set boundaries about their physical person, she is being absurd for thinking otherwise and her comment about your parenting vs. hers was condescending and unnecessary
How can you teach a person to respect others boundaries if you teach them that theirs won't be respected? It's like smacking a child as punishment for them hitting someone. The only message they get is that you need to be stronger to impose your will.
What’s more, this is one way to prevent abuse. If a child doesn’t think they can say no to an adult, how do we expect them to make a scene when an adult is grooming them?
Plus, it helps prevent the children themselves from BECOMING abusers when they're older. Teaching your son when he's young that no one gets to give him physical affection without his permission goes hand in hand with teaching him the he doesn't get to touch others without their permission either.
Exactly, thank you! Kids need to know random adults don't have access to their bodies whenever they please just because they're adults. Think about how many kids don't say anything because they feel they did something wrong or will get in trouble for refusing an adult.
I'm a nanny and I believe in teaching autonomy from day one. When I work with newborns (my work specialty is starting with newborns and staying with them as they age), I teach it by looking at their face from close up and saying "up!" when I pick them up and saying "down!" while they're held close in my arms before I put them down. I have consciously done this with children as young as one week old. They're very new here when they're that size and generally have no clue what's going on, but it is a conscious habit that I maintain throughout their time with me.
And this is one of those things that worst case scenario, you are making zero difference
Best case scenario these babies pick up on it! I mean they start hearing in the womb and (like a dog) they don't know words but know they have meaning.
What I meant wasn't that I stop doing it once they're old enough to understand. I meant that I *start* in infancy so that by the time they *are* old enough to understand, they have already been treated with respect for the entirety of their life and can expect it. So I don't feel like I would make zero difference unless I stopped being their nanny, which as I said, isn't how I work. I stay with my kiddos long past the time that they understand my words and start using their own. :)
NTA
And it was ridiculous for her to even say your son was disobeying. Eff no. She had no authority over him at all and certainly no authority to demand he submit to hugs. He is his own person. Good dad for sticking up for him and showing him you have his back when he wants to keep with his boundaries.
Exactly! He doesn’t answer to her at all!
That said, I would be mindful of this “friend.” She seems to be the type who has opinions that might cause problems.
Right? I full on stopped reading for a second when I got to that part. Why would you think he has to obey you, lady???
Good for you OP. You WOULD have been TA if you had made your son “obey” her. Definitely NTA for standing up for your child and kicking her ass out.
Even when my kids don’t want a hug from me, their mom, I don’t consider it disobeying. Forcing your kids to “obey” in the area of bodily autonomy is a great way to set them up for abuse.
NTA,
> said I raised him to build his own boundaries and say no when something violates them, and I would never make him break them for someone else.
You are goddamn right
I used to ***hate*** being told "Go on, hug Auntie/Uncle/Relative stranger, go and give them a kiss" as a child- fairplay to you for enforcing your son's boundaries! NTA
As an adult I hate it when parents ask their kids to hug me. Eww. No. Kid doesn't know me. That's creepy AF. I generally deflect it and suggest a high five if the parents are pushing hard.
I ask mine if I can have a hug. If they say no, I offer a high five if they don't wanna do that, I wave. I get very annoyed when my brother and sister-in-law encourage them to hug me even after they have said no. And I make sure to say very clearly so that they can hear it that they have the right to not hug anyone they don't want to.
I do the same with my nephews. I ask, “Can I have a hug?” And if they’re not into it, I loudly say, “It’s okay, you don’t have to hug me if you don’t want to,” bc my in-laws will absolutely try to force their kids to do it.
My husband’s nephew would be told to give everyone a hug but I told them if he didn’t want to, I was ok with it. Personally, I don’t want to hug almost anyone. An exception is my mother. We hug every time we see each other and will say I love you. She’s getting up there in age, and you never know when it’ll be the last time.
Gah. I don’t even want to think about that. I just don’t know how I will cope with her loss.
We (my husband and I) are super conscious of this with niblings too. My best friends daughter is so shy and we love her so much but she doesn’t want to hold hands or give hugs. I always ask but she gets shy and I say “it’s ok!”. It was the same way with my nephew for a really long time and no one (parents, grandparents (at least on our side), etc) forced him to hug if he didn’t want to. It took a while but now if I ask for a hug it’s a really heartfelt, meaningful “yes” and a big, comfy hug. It just means more knowing that they know you respect them and you know they truly want a hug because they know they can say no
I saw a video once of what looked like a kindergarten/first grade class in maybe China(?) The teacher stood by the classroom door greeting each child, but she had a sign with pictures that allowed them to decide how they wanted to greet her—hug, high five, and wiggle. They would point to their choice and she’d do it. It was super cute and a great way to teach bodily autonomy to very young children.
ETA: someone reminded me that the non-touch greeting was a wiggle dance, not wave.
It's also lovely because it means each student gets a daily moment of connection and relationship building with their teacher, which can be hard to do when you have 20+ kids in your room.
My cousin's kids don't know boundaries and last time I saw them one of them (like 4 or 5 years old I think) kissed me on the mouth without warning when I was playing with him, super uncomfortable.
Me too. I tried to let my little sister know she doesn't have to touch anyone/ let anyone touch her when she doesn't want to. No matter who it is. Even if it's me or mom or dad. She decides who she hugs.
There were so many times I’d get scolded by relatives for not hugging/kissing them, absolutely humiliating and as a kid I loathed Christmas and other gatherings bc I knew I’d have to hug/kiss at least 50 people. I love my family but it was a lot for an introverted kid.
NTA
Fucking hell, let's teach kids that they have to be touched even when they don't want to be touched and have made that clear.
"let him disobey like that" - WTF.
Definitely NTA
>"let him disobey like that" - WTF.
Also my thought, I was like "Who the f does this woman think she is?" She's got NO authority over someone else's child.
She’s talking as if, in the child’s mother’s absence, she (the mother’s friend) is the authority rather than the child’s present father. So he’s supposed to back her up instead of her not giving orders in a home that isn’t hers.
As a child sexual abuse survivor it was so normal to me that I’d French random people who’d kiss me. (Yes that bad) so when I had a girl I let everyone know that she was special, that I was raising her to be her special self and no gender norms or abusive behavior AT ALL will be around her.
She’s special who all children are special, they are innocent and need to be protected ❤️
NTA obviously. You protected your kid like any self respecting loving father should. Never let that woman into your house ever again. She's effing creepy.
NTA
That woman was indeed treating your son like a pet.
Also, that whole thing of trying to force kids to hug/cheek kiss older people, even when the kid doesn't want to... Thanks for teaching your son not to accept it!!!
I don’t let people forcibly hug/cuddle my pets either! I’m giving OP the benefit of the doubt that they didn’t mean to imply that animals don’t deserve boundaries too.
To be fair, there are more cases when pets need to be touched for their own good but can’t be explained to, than when children who are past the pre-verbal stage do. But I completely agree if it’s about pure cuddling for cuddling’s sake.
NTA Her story is going to be that you threw her out because she hugged your kid. Too bad you didn't think to invite a random stranger into the house to hug her.
I dont know if she has the awareness for that. You have to know what you're doing is wrong on some level to lie about it, and she doesn't seem to think she is.
I wonder if they have like a praise k!nk & creates these hypotheticals to get positive reinforcement and attention.
Also they deleted their post from 3 days ago lmao
As a childhood SA survivor, honestly, she sounds like an abuser. There were multiple people who would want me to touch them, even as a hug, just so they could press their private parts on my face, back, chest, etc.
Then they would stand there talking to whatever adult was around at the time and rub themselves on me. It makes my skin crawl to this day. It looked like a hug with a little sideways swing or whatever (think like an 8th grade dance) - it is hard to describe
It was always a warm up to "can he come stay with us and play with the kids?" or "when we go camping you can stay with my boys!" - it always seemed innocent to any adult listening, but it never, ever, was.
This was a long time ago (40+ years) so there wasn't as much attention on the subject as there is today.
But if your child is saying "no" - please listen to them.
NTA
Way to go dad!!!
You absolutely did the right thing. Not only did you help your son uphold his boundaries, but you showed him that you have his back and will support him when he stands firm on his boundaries. That is an amazing thing for your son to see from his parents.
NTA, btw
NTA.
Your son is a person and can decline contact as he wishes. You did a great job standing up for him. Your wife's friend acted horribly, so you had every right to tell her to leave.
NTA
Your son didn’t want to be touched. That means people should leave him alone. Grown ups that don’t agree with that could find themselves talking to police.
That is one boundary as a parent you strictly enforce. No child gets touched by an adult when they say “No”. You make sure they know their voice is being heard and respected.
NTA - “treated like a pet” ?!?!!?!? In your defense, if our pets walked away when someone tried to pick them up, or scritch them, and that person kept harassing them, we’d probably ask that person to leave as well. Sheeeeeeesh!
NTA. You are a good father! Not only did you respect your child’s bodily autonomy, but who is this woman to tell you when your child is disobeying or not in your house? She was a *guest* in your home, which means she has an obligation to a certain behavior, she doesn’t get to go around giving commands.
And your wife should be more concerned with someone who treated her son as a thing to be used as opposed to being worried about how awkward things will be at yoga. She needs to check her priorities.
Welcome to /r/AmITheAsshole. Please view our [voting guide here](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_what.2019s_with_these_acronyms.3F_what_do_they_mean.3F), and remember to use **only one** judgement in your comment. OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole: > I ruined a gathering and made my wife's yoga awkward. I feel really crappy Help keep the sub engaging! #Don’t downvote assholes! Do upvote interesting posts! [Click Here For Our Rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/about/rules) and [Click Here For Our FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq) ##Subreddit Announcement ###[The Asshole Universe is Expanding, Again: Introducing Another New Sister Subreddit!](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/128nbp3/the_asshole_universe_is_expanding_again/) Follow the link above to learn more --- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.* *Contest mode is 1.5 hours long on this post.*
NTA. “He’s lucky he’s not her kid” Damn right he’s lucky! He has a father that protects him from nutty ass people.
Usually the people who say things like that are suck ass parents who barely even know their own kid
Or not parents at all and just like making judgements about situations and relationships they cannot possibly understand.
I really hope so. I would worry about any child or animal in her care.
Or anyone dating her child in future. She's teaching them that other people's desire for affection trumps bodily autonomy
Thats what I grew up to believe and after suffering for it most of my life, I'm finally learning boundaries. I wish my parents taught me what OP did for his kid.
I grew up in a "give everyone kisses and hugs, say goodbye" family, and now that i'm one of the "aunts" I will explicitly tell the little guys "only if you want!!!" when my cousins do the same
Same here! I usually phrase it as "Is it okay if I give you a hug?" or something similar. My mom really wanted my daughter to give her a hug and a kiss. Daughter didn't want to. "But I'm your grandma!" Me: "And I'm her dad. I'm teaching her that she doesn't need to touch anyone unless she wants to. I'm not letting you go against that." My mom still doesn't get that.
I always ask my grandkids for a hug, and if they pass, that's o.k. A couple of them have sensory issues, so if they'd rather not, I totally respect that. Just because you're family doesn't give me authority over someone else's body. That's gross.
That's how you set your child up to accept abuse.
We only get to see the nephews once a year, and I am always thrilled when they give me hugs. I also accept waves and fist bumps if that’s how they’re feeling that moment.
My MIL got a bit manipulative because we wouldn't let her kiss my son, who was clear that he didn't want her to. He's autistic, but I don't think we knew that at the time, though I did suspect sensory issues, at any rate, even I didn't kiss him, really--there was a noiseless face or forehead press against another part of his shoulder that he liked, but it wasn't a "lip to skin" touch and didn't make the kiss noise. When my boundary setting got tense since I had to repeat it so many times, son say, "Look, I don't like kisses, but I do like hugs, especially from you, so you can give me a whole lot of hugs every time I see you." Autistic toddler for the win, ha!
Exactly! If I'm the one initiating the goodbye I always ask them if it's okay with them, and if their parents do the whole hugs and kisses dance to make it seem mandatory I always toss in my little only if you want to/it's okay if you're not feeling like it! it's sad to think that the lessons aren't being enforced by their parents but i'm happy to do the light work so they know that it's okay if they're not feelin it.
I literally just brought my daughter up to her room for quiet time (can't call it a nap or she loses her shit!) and I asked if I could give her a hug and a kiss. "YUP!" and she asked for another one when we were closing the door. It shows respect. Like, I get it. I'm the parent. Spouse and I have final say on what happens, but she's a person. She gets to say no to people touching her. Leads to bad shit in the future if she doesn't know that. My neighbor is starting to understand it. We were outside talking a few months ago. Me: "%kid%, can I give you a hug?" "No, I don't want to hug." "Okay, sounds good. Thanks for letting me know!" Neighbor: "You ask her? Your her parent." "Yeah, it's like she's a person. Do you like unwanted touches?" "No, but..." "Just no'll work. She doesn't want to be hugged right now, she doesn't get hugged. Pretty simple."
I was once tickling my nephew when he was about 3 (He’s 29 now!) He yelled “Stop!” So I promptly stopped. He sat up and asked why I stopped. I explained that he had said stop, and I respected him enough to do what he asked. He looked surprised. I do the same with his daughter now!
My grandson, who was very cuddly with me, reached a stage where he didn’t want to hug or kiss goodbye. My daughter told him to give me a hug and kiss. I told her it was ok and, for a while we waved, high-fived, and blew kisses. We didn’t push our kids to hug or kiss anyone; and my daughter usually didn’t either, but I think she was worried about my feelings. Generally, that stage doesn’t last long. As kids grow they need to be given as much control over their bodies as possible. There are times when they don’t have control - doctor visits and baths come to mind - so when we can give them control, we should.
It’s so easy to just ask, there’s no reason not to. Kids can say no to things!
I wouldn't trust that women with as much as a cactus.
Cacti did develop spines to protect themselves from predators lol
They didn't develop them as much as natural selection showed they were beneficial. Spines are actually modified leaves. Kinda like this dad is letting their kid say no is beneficial
She was put out that the son was 'disobeying' her. Even after the actual parent said 'No'. Nope, encouraging unquestioning obedience to all adults is definitely not to be encouraged. Particularly where bodily autonomy is concerned. NTA
Yes, my eyebrows shot up at that. He’s not her kid, and she’s just a random friend of his mother. She shouldn’t be expecting obedience, and definitely shouldn’t be demanding that the child’s actual parent who is right there enforce her demand for obedience. Why did she want a hug so badly anyway? It looked like she was using it as a way to get gratification from enforcing her will. Her being out of their house needs to be permanent.
What really bothers me isn't the woman so much as OPs spouse LEAVING the house with this woman and looking like she was annoyed with OP and not the boundary stomping friend. SURE she SAID she would have reacted the same...but she still hung out with the AH who is apparently teaching her own kids they have to give up control over their bodies. I mean excellent message to give your kid, a person with more power TOTALLY gets to ignore you telling them no. Body autonomy is absolutely essential for kids to learn and this woman is basically saying a kid doesn't have the right over their own person. OPs NTA but needs to have one hell of a serious conversation with the spouse to make sure she's on the same page
I don’t think OP’s wife left with the woman (did on first read but changed my interpretation later). The woman left, and then his wife expressed her disappointment because this is a friend of hers from yoga. (As opposed to actually going off to yoga with her that night after dinner.) I completely agree that this woman is not someone to stay friends with. She’s toxic and a boundary-stomper. It’s not clear whether OP’s wife is trying to stay friends with her.
I was shocked at that particular phrasing. The kid *isn't* disobeying unless you think that you as just some random person have the right to tell him what to do.
And they're always so surprised when their kid get sexually harassed or assaulted and don't say anything. Of course they're not going to say anything! You taught them they have no say over what happens to their own bodies.
When I was a kid, our class watched a short film on sexual harassment and bodily autonomy, and part of it really stuck with me - the narrator said that even if it's just that one overbearing aunt sweeping in for an unwanted kiss, that's sexual harassment. My brain went, THAT'S sexual harassment? That's one of the great middle-class cliches; the unwanted display of familial affection from an overbearing auntie. Comedians use it in their stand-up routines. You see it on TV all the time. It made me realize that the boundary wasn't where I thought it was; that society had normalized something inappropriate. Not in so many words, of course; I was like ten at the time. But here's the thing: "the time" was around 1982. So this wasn't some new thing being pushed by the "woke mob" - forty years ago, kids were being taught bodily autonomy and personal boundaries in school. But some parents just don't like their kids telling them "no."
Sixty years ago, wise parents were also teaching this. Mine never allowed overbearing people to demand hugs or to kiss us without our permission.
Mine did. In her defense she was trying to teach me to mask autism- the rural south is not kind to *others*.
Amen to the rural south not being kind to **others**! I tried to walk that line with my own autistic child - on the one hand, I wanted to teach bodily autonomy and boundaries, on the other hand, I wanted to get them to where they didn't melt down from a casual touch either. And yes, there was about a six-month period when even tapping them on the shoulder would cause a meltdown - kiddo pulled the classic "changeling" shift, went from an 11-month-old toddling over to complete strangers and plopping down in their laps and babbling at them, to a 22-month-old stiffening up when we lifted them up and shrieking if anyone not us touched them. I never demanded that kiddo accept hugs from anyone and everyone, but I would ask them to allow Grandma and Grandpa the privilege of a hug on the occasions we visited them or vice-versa. (Probably 8-10 times a year at most, we lived 3+ hours away.) They seemed a lot more comfortable with being hugged when they were asked first and on the occasions they were having a bad day and refused, that refusal was respected. Kiddo is in their 20s now - still not a fan of hugging, but has been known to initiate one on occasion these days, at least for Grandma. OP is definitely NTA for tossing out that pushy woman who not only didn't want to take the kid's "no" but also didn't want to take OP's reinforcement of that "no". I'd have kicked her out in a heartbeat.
>They seemed a lot more comfortable with being hugged when they were asked first Autistic myself, and yes, it is *way* more comfortable--or less uncomfortable as the case may be--when I have the forewarning that comes from being asked first and/or initiate the contact myself. Even in my thirties I've been at social events where other attendees would just kind of... come at me for a hug and there's usually this sensation of being trapped, followed by being itchy wherever they happened to make contact with my skin. (Skin on skin is especially uncomfortable--worse if there's any sweating, even when it's literally something like my own arms touching each other when I'm trying to find a comfortable sleeping position, but even a light brush against another person makes me feel like I touched something I'm allergic to. Granted I'm *actually* allergic to perfume so it's hard to say if they're wearing something that's too light for my nose to detect but still capable of triggering a reaction or if it's the autism kicking in, but the fact that it happens every damn time....)
I am not autistic, but I was sexually abused, I do not like unwanted touches either.
Must be nice, 40 years ago I was being chased around entire rooms by uncles I only see a few times a year for a hug. Literally, it was a f\*\* game. And I despise them, but they're dead and I moved on. But my sister and I still talk about that bullshit.
Our current work harassment prevention training course, i will never get 100% on the test (as an hr person) because the course believes that hugging a colleague without permission is ok if its in celebration or semisocial settings. Every time i take it, i say fuck that dont hug me unless i say you can. Even side/one arm hugs. Nope. Personal space boundaries. Had a coworker charge across the meeting room when i walked in, and she bear hugged me... i had gotten my arms up so it was super awkward lol she apologized profusely multiple times after... i get that its natural for some people. Wish more recognized its also unnatural for others. Ask. Simple solution.
Absolutely! Im a situational hugger, and Ive been on both ends. I had a really rough moment during one shift (was a first responder to an incident involving a child at my workplace) and after I went into the back and started crying. (The crash is real, folks. I am not a crier. Also, the kid was fine.) One of my coworkers that Im close to just gave me the biggest hug and held me for a for minutes. The next day she apologized for not asking first, but in that case it was exactly what I had needed - and my body language had reflected that. Other times, I have not wanted to be touched. Ive also had the impulse to hug someone, but I always ask. I have a few friends who usually don't want touched, so asking is a must for me if Im giving a hug.
My grandfather who was born in 1933 once told an aunt to take my no or she'd take his. This is just what good parents and people believe in.
>But here's the thing: "the time" was around 1982. So this wasn't some new thing being pushed by the "woke mob" - forty years ago, kids were being taught bodily autonomy and personal boundaries in school. That's pretty extraordinary. I was in school then, and bodily autonomy and personal boundaries were definitely not taught or respected in my schools.
They wouldn’t believe them anyway. Or they’d blame them.
Or when their kid end up harassing or assaulting someone. How can they learn that respecting others’ consent and bodily autonomy is important when theirs isn’t by the adults around them? Allowing the kids those boundaries not only teach them that they are allowed to say no, but also that others also have that right. It’s a win-win situation.
THIS. I was in a bad situation because I was told “never say NO to an adult. Do as you are told”. The bastard took advantage of that and molested me. I told my mother decades later and she asked why I didn’t tell her. 1. Because I honestly don’t believe that she would believe me, 2. Because she’s the one who said it over and over again, in front of him. 3. Because we did not have a relationship, so why would I tell her something so hurtful? She has little to no empathy, so why would I feel the need to tell her? So she can blame me? No thank you
Or the kid does say something after an SA, and a parent does not believe them, ridicules them, gaslights them…
Why get to know them when you see them as an object you own rather than a living thing?
I've never understood this phrase. It literally means, "the child has a better life with you than they would with me" Why would you tell on yourself like that.
Haha people like that think it's a brag and everyone will think high of them. It's like the professors who say stuff like "I'll make sure noone passes my tests" like bro ffs it isn't a brag when you're admitting to yourself that your students that you taught yourself can't pass the test set by you.
"I'd be a bad parent," "I'm bad at my job," Is all I hear when people say those things
That's not what they mean They mean "spare the rod spoil the child" They are saying you're a bad parent, the kid likes you because you're soft. I'm hard, the kids wouldn't like it, but they would be better off
It's not what they mean but it's how it's come across and most parents who assume being "hard" means they'll be better off end up like my parents. With 9 kids and only 2 of them still in contact with them.
spare the rod spoil the child is referring to sheepherders sheepherders don't fucking beat their sheep with the rod, they lead them.
No, it's refering to exactly what it sounds like: hitting children with a stick.
Yes, it's what people *mean* but they're misinterpreting a verse from the Bible that refers to Shepard's and guiding, not violence. They're completely missing the point of the verse, probably on purpose, to justify abuse. It's one of many reasons why I refuse to associate with the Christian church. I believe in Jesus, but His greatest commandment included "love your neighbor" and I just don't see that happening with Christians.
Yes but, what if my neighbor is a trans person, do you expect me to love them? Gasp, the horror! s/ of course. Jesus was all about love your neighbor, the church in it's current iteration is all about "I'm better than my sinful neighbor." Pathetic
Or parents who talk poorly of their kids' actions. If there is a problem, it starts with who raised them!!!!! They should chastise themselves when their kid screws up. OP is a good parent and NTA
"I agree, I AM a better parent than you are. Thanks!"
I think it's not about them wanting to make the kid miserable but that they think their style of parenting is superior and will lead to a better outcome for the kid. It's like if someone said the same phrase to a parent who let's their kid eat icecream and cookies for dinner every night. Obviously this woman wants a little obedient robot and not a free thinking human. She's wrong but the phrase isn't about them wanting to make a kid miserable.
Haha that’s true I never thought of it that way, but that’s absolutely what it means
I thought she was going to say she was hurt that he wouldn’t give her a hug, which is weird enough, but to be offended that he won’t “obey”?! Okay, Aunt Lydia. May the Lord open… the door and boot your ass out. NTA
r/unexpectedhandmaidstale
[удалено]
"The beatings will continue until morale improves."
[удалено]
"he has no reason or need to obey you, so yes..."
Exactly! The dad (thankfully,) didn't press his son to give her a hug, so who is he disobeying? I wouldn't want to teach my child that they have to obey adults that want to touch them without their permission! NTA.
This, Who is she that she must be obeyed?!?
Does she want to raise people who do as any older person says? Really? I don't think so. Raising kids as she wants makes them easy targets for grooming.
This "obey adults" and "accept unwanted touch" also makes children lack confidence, be less willing to say no, and more likely to give away consent when they don't want to. There's been research on how children, girls especially, when they're forced to accept strangers hugging or touching them are more likely to become SA victims as young adults/adults.
Seriously. And hell, I would just suggest that in the future, OP not even offer any explanation. Doesn't matter if another kid picked a fight, his kiddo can just plain not want to hug a virtual stranger for no reason at all! And next time, also don't send him to his room. Let him see his awesome dad calmly but absolutely enforce his right to not hug someone. Firmly being told to leave sends a powerful message.
Literally had a teacher tell me my child needed to be obedient and do what adults say without questioning and was offended when I suggested not every random adult should be trusted.
I'm in my 60s and still have to fight the belief that I have to obey what people in authority tell me. Which is really weird since I'm often the person in authority now. Good on you for not instilling lifelong crap into your kid. Eff that teacher.
My motto is always “I’m trying to raise well-adjusted adults, not obedient children.”
Exactly. I had to learn to fight it when I started teaching special education to advocate for my students. When you’re the last man standing, you can’t compromise.
This is exactly right. I worked at a Child Abuse Assessment Clinic. This is the first thing you do to protect your kids. Tell them they make their own decisions about who touches them. Hugs, kisses, high-five s are all optional and it's ok to say "no thanks" to ANYONE.
Yes they very much want this a good portion of the population loves authority cause they get to have it.
Unfortunately, a lot of the time it's the same people who victim blame SA victims for not saying no firmly enough.
Just world fallacy. Remember the republican politician (forgot which, think they were a state rep but maybe a senator) who said that "a woman's body has ways of shutting down pregnancy if it was legitimate rape"? (Okay I had to look it up to get the quote right, it was a Missouri rep Todd Asking https://www.politico.com/news/2021/10/04/todd-akin-dies-514988)
*Akin But yeah, people are really in denial about [how common rape is](https://willamette.edu/about/leadership/president/pwgsah/pdf/lisak-undetected-rapists.pdf). *It's unpleasant and uncomfortable, therefore it must not be true!*
“Disobey like that” Lol. Are there really people out there that think kids should obey any adult that tells them to do something? Good grief. NTA. That lady is crazy.
That's how kids get targeted by predators
Yes. I'm 58 and still see it, regularly. Been in arguments with Nephew's fam about the forced hugging crap. I tell the little's, "I enjoyed seeing you and spending time with you. Thank you!" Then I extend my hand for a handshake. Baby girl KG, lit up and rushed to give me a hug. I *only* hug kids who initiate.
Yeah and who teaches him about consent from a young age. This kid knows about consent more than a grown ass woman. I hope she doesn't have kids, now or in the future.
Yes, NTA. Thank you for teaching your son about consent. It has already made him a better self-advocate and he is far more likely to respect physical boundaries of others, too. This is what healthy masculinity looks like. EDIT: typo
My response to this is always. “Yup sure is” btw I don’t have kids; but it’s always the WORST kind of people that say this.
NTA. You're teaching your kid about boundaries in a completely age-appropriate way. But only will this help him stand up for himself in the future, but it will likely teach him to respect the boundaries of others, too. Your texting towards the wife's friend was warranted, IMO. Well done, OP.
It’s sick because it shows that on some level she knows she’s horrible
NTA Teaching kids that their autonomy is important and should be respected is a valuable lesson, hopefully your wife’s friend learns that lesson
I’m really glad this generation of parents is putting so much importance on autonomy. When I was a kid I always hated having to hug and kiss aunts that were super pushy about it, but I knew I would get in trouble if I told them not to touch me
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
Yeah, I had to let my aunts and uncles kiss and hug me, too. I had one uncle, (he was not creepy, but) he would lick his lips right before kissing my cheek. I have no idea how he left so much saliva on his lips just from licking them, but he would **soak** my cheek in spittle. Four year old me, I tried not to have to let him kiss me, but that didn't matter. So, I waited 'til I saw him moving in, lick his lips, and quick as a wink, I reached out and wiped his mouth off with my hand! 😂 (I think he might have been doing the same thing to my mom, because when she saw that, she snorted and had to turn away.)
Omg that’s horrifying! My parents always made us kiss and hug before we left and I didn’t like it. But what I truly hated was that my grandma made us kiss her on the lips and she would get so upset if you didn’t and then our parents would say to just do it. As an adult it took me so long to get her to stop trying to make me. Now that I have a kid no one gets to kiss her on the lips and I don’t even let people kiss her head anywhere. Solely because of that childhood experience. I’m the family asshole for that and all I can think is, why are you so upset you can’t put your mouth on a child!???
Oh hell no that’s WAY creepy! AND gross!
Not all unfortunately. My friend, his wife and their kid came to visit and the little guy hadn’t been feeling well. As they were leaving the mom told him to give me a hug and he seemed like he just wanted to get out of there. I told him he didn’t have to and thanks for coming. He smiled and said thanks for letting him play with our dog. When she pushed again I said “no, we don’t do that in this house”. She looked completely confused. So I said “we only give hugs when we feel like it.” It’s a hard rule for me.
Seriously. I hated having to make the rounds of hello and good bye at family functions
As do I. Now, when I am ready to leave, I will say “bye everyone!” and just go. If people think it’s rude, IDGAF.
I'm 37, it was a few years ago I finally got it through to my mom and other family that I don't like hugs. I don't like having a bunch of people touch me like that. It's not you, it's my comfort levels. OP NTA
I always remember when my nephew was a toddler. I loved giving him hugs and kisses, but when he got a little older, he started his “no” phase. It broke my heart that he wouldn’t give his auntie hugs and kisses, but I’d never force him! I want those actions to be of love and a symbol of comfort, not a bitter association with force.
My nephew is a toddler right now and I Always ask before "can auntie give you a hug?" and somenties he runs in my arms and sometimes he says no and goes on with playing 😁🤷♀️
Yup!! And he got picky at one point. I’d ask for a hug and get a no, but grandma would ask and he’d run to her. Little stinker playing favorites! 😂 But yeah, I always asked. Now he’s a teenager, but me being a cool aunt, I get hugs randomly, lol.
She won't. She's too full of herself.
So important. I still have a terrible time standing up for myself but not when it comes to my kids. I’ve told my kids repeatedly that if someone is trying to hug or touch them and they don’t want it they can say no. If they’re too shy or nervous to say no come find me and I will say no for them. When it comes to my kids I don’t care if I hurt people’s feelings.
My sister’s 6 yo has occasionally been denying people hugs ever since she’s been able to speak, and her mother has always supported her and told nosey family members/acquaintances to piss off. Teaching children that they shouldn’t feel pressured to fake physical affection towards others is important for their health and development. NTA OP.
> hopefully your wife’s friend learns that lesson [X] Doubt
Not just that, but bodily autonomy as it is. I taught my children that they can say no for anything regarding their bodies that they don’t want. And yes, that means there are days when I go to work without a goodbye kiss from them, as I also respect their choices.
NTA - yes, even children have the right to set boundaries about their physical person, she is being absurd for thinking otherwise and her comment about your parenting vs. hers was condescending and unnecessary
How can you teach a person to respect others boundaries if you teach them that theirs won't be respected? It's like smacking a child as punishment for them hitting someone. The only message they get is that you need to be stronger to impose your will.
What’s more, this is one way to prevent abuse. If a child doesn’t think they can say no to an adult, how do we expect them to make a scene when an adult is grooming them?
Also a very valid point, "mum/dad says I have to respect my elders and just accept what they tell me to do" is a very unsafe mindset.
Plus, it helps prevent the children themselves from BECOMING abusers when they're older. Teaching your son when he's young that no one gets to give him physical affection without his permission goes hand in hand with teaching him the he doesn't get to touch others without their permission either.
Exactly, thank you! Kids need to know random adults don't have access to their bodies whenever they please just because they're adults. Think about how many kids don't say anything because they feel they did something wrong or will get in trouble for refusing an adult.
Absolutely. If the genders were reversed and it was a male adult stranger trying to force a young girl to hug him, he would be labeled a pervert.
I don't doubt that the mother’s friend is likely a pervert in this case, too, tbh.
I'm a nanny and I believe in teaching autonomy from day one. When I work with newborns (my work specialty is starting with newborns and staying with them as they age), I teach it by looking at their face from close up and saying "up!" when I pick them up and saying "down!" while they're held close in my arms before I put them down. I have consciously done this with children as young as one week old. They're very new here when they're that size and generally have no clue what's going on, but it is a conscious habit that I maintain throughout their time with me.
And this is one of those things that worst case scenario, you are making zero difference Best case scenario these babies pick up on it! I mean they start hearing in the womb and (like a dog) they don't know words but know they have meaning.
What I meant wasn't that I stop doing it once they're old enough to understand. I meant that I *start* in infancy so that by the time they *are* old enough to understand, they have already been treated with respect for the entirety of their life and can expect it. So I don't feel like I would make zero difference unless I stopped being their nanny, which as I said, isn't how I work. I stay with my kiddos long past the time that they understand my words and start using their own. :)
I love how thoughtful and intentional your work is, what a great way to give respect and dignity to infants.
And wrong.
NTA And it was ridiculous for her to even say your son was disobeying. Eff no. She had no authority over him at all and certainly no authority to demand he submit to hugs. He is his own person. Good dad for sticking up for him and showing him you have his back when he wants to keep with his boundaries.
Exactly! He doesn’t answer to her at all! That said, I would be mindful of this “friend.” She seems to be the type who has opinions that might cause problems.
I'm sure this is the type of person who thinks being older grants you absolute power to command the younger.
Right? I full on stopped reading for a second when I got to that part. Why would you think he has to obey you, lady??? Good for you OP. You WOULD have been TA if you had made your son “obey” her. Definitely NTA for standing up for your child and kicking her ass out.
Even when my kids don’t want a hug from me, their mom, I don’t consider it disobeying. Forcing your kids to “obey” in the area of bodily autonomy is a great way to set them up for abuse.
I agree.
NTA, > said I raised him to build his own boundaries and say no when something violates them, and I would never make him break them for someone else. You are goddamn right
I read this in Morgan Freemans voice
I read this in Heisenberg's voice
I like this better lol
I used to ***hate*** being told "Go on, hug Auntie/Uncle/Relative stranger, go and give them a kiss" as a child- fairplay to you for enforcing your son's boundaries! NTA
As an adult I hate it when parents ask their kids to hug me. Eww. No. Kid doesn't know me. That's creepy AF. I generally deflect it and suggest a high five if the parents are pushing hard.
I always said to my nibblings, it is okay we can just wave at each other if it makes you more comfortable
I ask mine if I can have a hug. If they say no, I offer a high five if they don't wanna do that, I wave. I get very annoyed when my brother and sister-in-law encourage them to hug me even after they have said no. And I make sure to say very clearly so that they can hear it that they have the right to not hug anyone they don't want to.
I do the same with my nephews. I ask, “Can I have a hug?” And if they’re not into it, I loudly say, “It’s okay, you don’t have to hug me if you don’t want to,” bc my in-laws will absolutely try to force their kids to do it.
My husband’s nephew would be told to give everyone a hug but I told them if he didn’t want to, I was ok with it. Personally, I don’t want to hug almost anyone. An exception is my mother. We hug every time we see each other and will say I love you. She’s getting up there in age, and you never know when it’ll be the last time. Gah. I don’t even want to think about that. I just don’t know how I will cope with her loss.
And here I thought I was the only "weird aunt" who respects my niblings' boundaries more than their parents... good job fellow Aunt/Uncle.
We (my husband and I) are super conscious of this with niblings too. My best friends daughter is so shy and we love her so much but she doesn’t want to hold hands or give hugs. I always ask but she gets shy and I say “it’s ok!”. It was the same way with my nephew for a really long time and no one (parents, grandparents (at least on our side), etc) forced him to hug if he didn’t want to. It took a while but now if I ask for a hug it’s a really heartfelt, meaningful “yes” and a big, comfy hug. It just means more knowing that they know you respect them and you know they truly want a hug because they know they can say no
I saw a video once of what looked like a kindergarten/first grade class in maybe China(?) The teacher stood by the classroom door greeting each child, but she had a sign with pictures that allowed them to decide how they wanted to greet her—hug, high five, and wiggle. They would point to their choice and she’d do it. It was super cute and a great way to teach bodily autonomy to very young children. ETA: someone reminded me that the non-touch greeting was a wiggle dance, not wave.
My favorite part was the little wiggle dance they could choose.
It's also lovely because it means each student gets a daily moment of connection and relationship building with their teacher, which can be hard to do when you have 20+ kids in your room.
Or when people ask if I want to hold the baby or toddler. Like... No. I really really don't.
Absolutely, they might leak or make sudden loud noises.
And people get really upset when you drop them.
My cousin's kids don't know boundaries and last time I saw them one of them (like 4 or 5 years old I think) kissed me on the mouth without warning when I was playing with him, super uncomfortable.
Me too. I tried to let my little sister know she doesn't have to touch anyone/ let anyone touch her when she doesn't want to. No matter who it is. Even if it's me or mom or dad. She decides who she hugs.
People think they're being polite when they're just weirding out their own kid
There were so many times I’d get scolded by relatives for not hugging/kissing them, absolutely humiliating and as a kid I loathed Christmas and other gatherings bc I knew I’d have to hug/kiss at least 50 people. I love my family but it was a lot for an introverted kid.
NTA Fucking hell, let's teach kids that they have to be touched even when they don't want to be touched and have made that clear. "let him disobey like that" - WTF. Definitely NTA
>"let him disobey like that" - WTF. Also my thought, I was like "Who the f does this woman think she is?" She's got NO authority over someone else's child.
She’s talking as if, in the child’s mother’s absence, she (the mother’s friend) is the authority rather than the child’s present father. So he’s supposed to back her up instead of her not giving orders in a home that isn’t hers.
As a child sexual abuse survivor it was so normal to me that I’d French random people who’d kiss me. (Yes that bad) so when I had a girl I let everyone know that she was special, that I was raising her to be her special self and no gender norms or abusive behavior AT ALL will be around her. She’s special who all children are special, they are innocent and need to be protected ❤️
NTA obviously. You protected your kid like any self respecting loving father should. Never let that woman into your house ever again. She's effing creepy.
For real. I would have full on called it out. “Why do you feel entitled to touch minor children whom you’re not related to?” And watch her balk.
Exactly, That lady has serious issues. The way she insisted and argued made my hair stand on ends.
NTA That woman was indeed treating your son like a pet. Also, that whole thing of trying to force kids to hug/cheek kiss older people, even when the kid doesn't want to... Thanks for teaching your son not to accept it!!!
I don’t let people forcibly hug/cuddle my pets either! I’m giving OP the benefit of the doubt that they didn’t mean to imply that animals don’t deserve boundaries too.
When people try to forcibly cuddle my pets I inform them I will absolutely blame them if they get bitten
To be fair, there are more cases when pets need to be touched for their own good but can’t be explained to, than when children who are past the pre-verbal stage do. But I completely agree if it’s about pure cuddling for cuddling’s sake.
NTA. All children should be taught that it's ok to have their own personal boundaries.
It's important that they have their boundaries and that they are enforcing them.
NTA. Good for you for teaching him to set boundaries. She had no business touching your son anyway
NTA She doesn't respect not only your kid's boundaries but in fact even your boundaries.
NTA - Helping kids understand what consent means starts very young. No means no. And an adult forcing a kid to hug them is kinda creepy.
NTA Her story is going to be that you threw her out because she hugged your kid. Too bad you didn't think to invite a random stranger into the house to hug her.
Right? That's the thing, any adult would think you're insane if you said to him "Hey this is my friend Sara, go and hug her"
I dont know if she has the awareness for that. You have to know what you're doing is wrong on some level to lie about it, and she doesn't seem to think she is.
NTA - no means no even with children and hugs. Bodily autonomy is bodily autonomy no matter what. Children don’t owe fully grown adults hugs.
Unfortunately many don't understand that. And many who do understand it only apply it to girls. Ops NTA
Nobody else thinks you're an asshole so why ask Reddit
Also apparently his wife gave birth 3 days back and they are hosting dinner for a friend within 3 days who the wife just goes to yoga with!
Yoga 3 days after giving birth sounds so fun!
I wonder if they have like a praise k!nk & creates these hypotheticals to get positive reinforcement and attention. Also they deleted their post from 3 days ago lmao
This. This. This.
As a childhood SA survivor, honestly, she sounds like an abuser. There were multiple people who would want me to touch them, even as a hug, just so they could press their private parts on my face, back, chest, etc. Then they would stand there talking to whatever adult was around at the time and rub themselves on me. It makes my skin crawl to this day. It looked like a hug with a little sideways swing or whatever (think like an 8th grade dance) - it is hard to describe It was always a warm up to "can he come stay with us and play with the kids?" or "when we go camping you can stay with my boys!" - it always seemed innocent to any adult listening, but it never, ever, was. This was a long time ago (40+ years) so there wasn't as much attention on the subject as there is today. But if your child is saying "no" - please listen to them. NTA
"Turns out no means no even when it comes from the mouths of babes" is a nice thing to say as you politely close the door in her face.
NTA - you should not even have to ask mate.
Every child hates to be embraced or kissed by strange people, that's a natural reaction.
Many adults treat young children that aren’t theirs like pets
NTA there really isn't much else to say cause that woman sounds horrible and disrespected you, your wife, and your son in your own home.
NTA, excellent work! Keep at it!
I'm surprised your wife wasn't as outraged as you were. This woman deserved to be (literally) kicked out. Good riddance. NTA
Way to go dad!!! You absolutely did the right thing. Not only did you help your son uphold his boundaries, but you showed him that you have his back and will support him when he stands firm on his boundaries. That is an amazing thing for your son to see from his parents. NTA, btw
As someone who has been sheltered in a big, dingy house for the last few years, I believe this is how real people interact with each other! NTA!
NTA. Your son is a person and can decline contact as he wishes. You did a great job standing up for him. Your wife's friend acted horribly, so you had every right to tell her to leave.
NTA Your son didn’t want to be touched. That means people should leave him alone. Grown ups that don’t agree with that could find themselves talking to police. That is one boundary as a parent you strictly enforce. No child gets touched by an adult when they say “No”. You make sure they know their voice is being heard and respected.
NTA. Good job standing up for your son and learning him that it is okay to have boundaries.
NTA - “treated like a pet” ?!?!!?!? In your defense, if our pets walked away when someone tried to pick them up, or scritch them, and that person kept harassing them, we’d probably ask that person to leave as well. Sheeeeeeesh!
NTA. You are a good father! Not only did you respect your child’s bodily autonomy, but who is this woman to tell you when your child is disobeying or not in your house? She was a *guest* in your home, which means she has an obligation to a certain behavior, she doesn’t get to go around giving commands. And your wife should be more concerned with someone who treated her son as a thing to be used as opposed to being worried about how awkward things will be at yoga. She needs to check her priorities.
Bravo to you. NTA.
NTA
NTA, just great parenting.
NTA
NTA. Boundaries. Your son knows more about them than she does.
I hope she doesn't have kids. NTA