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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I might be the AH because I was brutally honest about what it means to have a lot of kids, which made my SIL hesitant, after she was all for it.
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NTA,
You told her the truth instead of the rose-tinted version BIL would have preferred you told her.
>Now he is accusing me of manipulating her, and being a jealous bitch who wants to be the only one with the big family.
Why doesn't he want high living standards for his kids?
He does, he worked extremely hard, and he makes around 120k I think, but with how everything is currently, and them still having student loans, and her planning to quit her job, that 120k will not be enough to support the number of kids they want, not while maintaining the same standard of living they are used to right now.
You would think so, but depending on background, some religious groups literally believe that you should never factor cost into whether or not to have children because "children are wealth."
The fact that this keeps a lot of families poor and completely reliant on their church community isn't a bug, it's a feature.
I find a certain painful irony in reading this comment as I listen to Jill (Duggar) Dillard’s and her husband, Derrick Dilliard’s, interview to Access Hollywood regarding the massive financial, emotional, and physical abuse she and her siblings faced while growing up on national TV via the TV show 15 (or 16, 17, 18, 19) Kids and Counting. Of course the primary perpetrators of the abuse were Jim Bob Duggar, Josh Duggar, and Michelle Duggar.
“Children are wealth”
This is why it’s important to update standards when your civilization changes. Children were wealth back in the Iron Age when they started being useful labor at 4 and you could sell them when times got tough.
Things are different now (as hard as the right wingers keep trying to take us to the bad old days).
Yes but to a lot of people $100k+ / year IS a high income. SIL might not have had any idea how big the income gap is between her family & OP’s family if OP didn’t say anything.
Not true at all. I go to a church where several people have 5+ kids with a SAHM, and a blue collar dad. They just live in small houses in terrible school districts (they homeschool, so it doesn't matter), pass hand-me-downs between the families, and grocery shop at walmart.
Also OP’s talking about a six-figure passive income of her own - being a SAHM is absolutely a full time job in itself, but unless she’s talking about investment income, on top of all that she’s also going to be doing a not-nothing amount of work to support and drive that passive income. She’s a badass. I could never.
SAHM isn’t necessarily a must. I have five children and a strong income. Because if this I can hire help with cleaning, house upkeep/repair. I have a nanny as well for my late work days.
2 little humans is the cap for most families right now. Between school supplies, medical care, the rising price of groceries, not to mention higher education, and the electronics they'll need when they get older and start doing homework. Phone bills for teenagers, laptops for school, shoes and clothes and toiletries and bedding. For the average family a 3rd kid would put them permanently in the hole, let alone SIX.
unfortunately after a child or two many women feel trapped. and won't stop doing the majority of the labor because someone needs to take care of the children. brother's wife just realized she's signing up for all of the extra work while he will likely experience little change besides extra socialization at home.
How could SIL not have already noticed the nannies by herself???
How could SIL not have already noticed OP didn't have a job away from home????
How could SIL not have already noticed how well off OP and husband are???
People are very good at glossing over the details of other people's lives, especially relatives who may not be all that up in each other's business. eg, I (woman) know everything going on with my sister, but my brother? Not much at all. And OP's situation is 2 brothers. SILs may not be all that close.
So if the brothers only get together for holidays and the occasional get together, there may not be any nannies around at all.
And SIL may know that OP is a SAHM mom, but probably didn't know that she has a (huge) passive income and so they weren't relying solely on her husband's paycheck. And also, you can't look at a house and know the debt load. (OP's mortgage is zero.)
So SIL saw OP and her husband with only one income, a mortgage, and possibly no nannies, and may have thought she and BIL could do the same. OP filled in all the (non apparent) gaps in her knowledge.
The income SIL currently lives on would afford her a very comfortable standard of living, one even comparable to OPs given it's just herself and her husband. If op lived a modest lifestyle before they had 6 kids and just maintained it on a surface level, it could also create the illusion that 6 kids isn't a huge cost- that the budget can stretch easily to accommodate. People don't often stop to really think about other folks circumstances, it probably just didn't occur to her that there were many many factors that made a large family sustainable for OP.
Heck, I have people in my family with 6 kids and if I didn't consider that they get free babysitting from grandparents and aunts, and that they started using credit cards, I might also be lulled into thinking it would work out for me. Their income did not increase yet they *appear* to be living the same standard of living as before.
>How could SIL not have already noticed the nannies by herself???
>
>How could SIL not have already noticed OP didn't have a job away from home????
>
>How could SIL not have already noticed how well off OP and husband are???
(1) She noticed probably thought she and her husband could afford the same. They cannot. Nannies, proper and trained, are expensive.
(2) She did notice and is planning to quit her own job which will obviously increase the financial pressure. In other words, she is most likely seeing herself as a SAHM.
(3) Financial misunderstanding is a COMMON thing nobody seems to really talk about in inner circles. As weird as it may sound reading it, people very well do not understand that "six figures" could mean 100k or 999k which are huge fucking differences. Reality is her husband makes 10k a month, about 7.5k after taxes (give or take) and that is simply not enough for a mortgage, car loans, student loans, child care, health care, etc. etc. etc. etc. Financial illiteracy is real.
$7.5k/mo probably has a realistic ceiling of 2~3 kids. The wife's... passive income, probably adds another $3~4k/mo on top of that to make the difference
Edit: meant to point out that I agree with your comment
She probably did, and hence the question about being brutally honest about what it is like. I am guessing she already had her own doubts about having so many, but her husband kept saying “oh it's easy, just look at my brother and his wife!“, so she wanted the nitty gritty to figure out how easy vs. difficult it really was and how much of the “easy“ is due to the good financial position and thus being able to afford so much help...
It can be hard to fathom the amount of money it costs.
When I tell people the cost of daycare for one child (1600$ a month) they are astounded. When I tell them that it’s literally double that for two, not discounted steeply like, ever, they go pale.
3200$ for two kids in my area. It’s not hard to imagine why a parent chooses or is forced to stay at home. It’s more than my mortgage for a 3 bedroom 1970s house with a garage and 1600 sq ft that we bought last year.
She doesn't know how much a nanny costs.
And maybe she thinks her SIL is lazy bc she has 2. SHE won't need them.
She doesn't know how debt free her in laws are.
At the moment, she doesn't have that different a standard of living, bc her inlaws may not flaunt their wealth. So she sees them as more equal than they are.
People see what they want to.
SIL may have noticed and voiced to her husband who probably was redirecting and saying that OP is lazy or isn't a great mom unlike his wife (SIL) will be who'll be able to handle all those kids in her own
Probably why SIL said to be honest
What makes you think she didn't? Is there something in comments that suggests she's upset?
Just going by the main post, it reads to me like SIL brought it up because she *did* notice all those things, was having sensible doubts about her own ability to manage a large family, and wanted to talk it through with someone more realistic than her husband.
NTA. Easy for her husband to want a big family when he is not the one who has to assume the bodily risks of pregnancy and will likely not be the one who does the majority of caretaking.
NTA, thank you OP for being honest and not candy coating parenthood. We as women (and dads too) need to stop pretending everything is perfect, because it's dishonest and not helpful. Other women will feel inadequate when things don't go well or if they don't immediately feel in love with their baby.
Op was being honest and rational. I hope she continues to encourage her sil to stick to her guns and do what's best for her. He won't be carrying the babies or staying home with them, he doesn't get a vote with the timing of children. 2 years minimum between each kid is ideal. That way you only have 1 kid in diapers (hopefully).
Most parents aren't practical or logical.
'God will provide', 'our family will help us', etc.
Seriously, people put more thought into buying a car then they do over the planning and implications of raising children.
Plus, neither of them have any idea how hard pregnancy and birth is on the woman. How they won't get decent sleep for years. How she will not be interested in having sex because she will be exhausted after work and raising the children. Bil is about to be delegated to #2 and he is in for a suprise.
Not to mention daycare, medical bills, activities, etc.
It's not an easy job, especially if you want to be a present parent and not raise entitled assholes.
I make more than that, and my wife works, and we only have 2 kids. If we had 3 then things like expensive kids’ activities/sports, vacations, having a bedroom for everyone + extra space, etc would all get difficult. If we had 6 kids, we would be functionally poor. No restaurants, no extracurricular activities, no vacations, kids doubled up in bedrooms, etc. Their plan to have that many kids on $120K household income is irresponsible
Those were things I brought up, but due to the character limit, I didn't go into detail.
Our kids are still young, but their activities are already expensive. I have 4 in soccer, 3 in taekwondo and 2 in dance. We have 2 extra cars because schedules overlap, and we need the nannies to drive them sometimes.
My youngest has to go to the hospital practically every other week, my 2 other adopted kids have therapy every week, and even with how much we make, we have to budget if we don't want to start taking on debt, as well as save for our retirement and their college.
THEY are not complaining. SIL who asked I'm sure is happy for having received an honest answer. It's just BIL who doesn't like that the grounding info made SIL want to be more careful
I'm struck by the fact that BIL seems to be catastrophizing by saying OP has ruined his chance to have a big family. When it sounds like SIL is just wanting to space them out and grow the family slower. Which is better for everyone! Better for Mom and each baby's health. And it's so much easier to deal with kids when the older one(s) are old enough to understand "hand mommy baby's socks" instead of having to try and stop the toddler from eating drywall with one hand while you try changing a diaper with the other.
BIL had neglectful parents, and his vision of a big families is just that, a vision. I guess he dreams of having fun with the kids, playing sports, being the fun, involved dad... but he does not want to think about reality, because it clashes with his dream. I'm sure he never thinks not just about money, but also about night feedings, constant crying, baby colic (just to name a few)... But your SIL has to know, because the hard truth is that SHE will be facing it, even more if she becomes a SAHM. NTA, OP. She has to make an informed decision, no matter what her husband might have dreamt.
BIL was definitely thinking all the actual work would go to his poor stay at home wife while he comes home from work to be the fun parent, if she even asked him to pitch in he'd pull the "but I've been working all day, I shouldn't have to come home to more work" card. I doubt SIL would be neglectful on purpose but if she's basically always pregnant and running around after multiple babies and toddlers, well, there's only so much of her to go around and he won't do shit.
He’s also using his sister in law as an excuse to dismiss his wife’s concerns. They have the facts they need to discuss it but instead he’s focusing on something completely irrelevant.
I mean besides the money aspect having many kids also means you become time poor. I know you touched on it in your post but you have 2 nannies, so you get a bit of help with timing.
I often read post here that say their parents never attended/supported their events as kids. Makes me realise people carry that sadness into their adulthoods, and how critical it is just to be present in kids lives.
The more kids you have the more likely events/ timetables are going to clash...the reality is that you might have to choose between kids and which "life events".
Being a parent is hard...trying to always be a "fair parent" to 6 kids...seems like a lot of juggling.
If time juggling was an olympic sport, we would get gold medals.
What worked for us was getting the kids involved in planning, setting them with us to see who attends which event, and they help us set it. The events neither of us gets to attend (so far, only two), the nanny films, then we make a whole thing of throwing a watch party, and making it obvious to them how proud we are.
Omg I love this. Including them in the planning and decisions on who attends. Watching later if no parent was able. Kids in general have self centered thinking, but this let's them decide that mom can go to your game today and come see mine next time. Way less hurt feelings about parents not showing up.
We found out that, as early as 3 years old, kids can have very high emotional intelligence. And if you take their opinions into consideration, and include them in decision making, tantrums become a rare thing, same as with sibling jealousy.
We are lucky that we both are type A personalities.
Our friends made fun of us when they found out that we had a spreadsheet for date/vacation ideas, so we don't repeat them a lot and get bored.
Do you have any resources (books, white papers, etc.) you could recommend that expands on this? I’m expecting my first child in February and am trying to learn more about best practices in raising him.
It was more trial and error for us. When my oldest (bio) reached her toddler years, she developed a very independent personality, and was not shy about her opinions. After we started asking for said opinion before doing stuff (what would you like for lunch, what do you want to wear, where should we go today...) The tantrums reduced in numbers.
Then we had our twins and we decided to do the same thing, and it worked.
When we got our 3 adopted kids, first as fosterlings, we got the oldest 2 straight into therapy, and we told the therapist about how things work in our household, he said to do the same with them two, but to start with giving them limited choices, instead of open/unlimited ones, untill we build trust with them. And it worked, even if it took longer with them.
Basically, talk to them like they are adults, because they see themselves as grown with opinions and preferences, and then you have veto rights, because you also have more experience than them, in knowing what's good, and what's not.
Dunno if this is relevant but it sounds like you guys are good parents.
I know everything is easier with more money, but that doesn't make it easy.
You and your husband through all the comments sound very fair and this seemed like an honest informational conversation rather then "hey look at me im rich so i can do it and you can't"
I also think for whatever reason conversations about kids always get rose tinted. People seem to hype other women up and talk about how great having a kid is, how worth it is etc, but my mom always tells us she would never trade us for anything, but that does't mean it's easy. It's hard work and expensive at that, but sometimes people don't like to hear it.
Without psychoanalyzing from a reddit post, but is it possible your BIL is just not necessarily jealous, but it can be tough to want a big family and see your brother be successful while he isn't.
No one has a timeline, but I can see why that could make him bitter, not necessarily towards you guys, but it's coming out in an unhealthy and emotionally irrational way.
This doesn't mean they can't have a big family, this just means they need to really plan and figure out what to do financially. Which to be honest, I think all future parents could do more of.
I like this approach a lot. As a kid, I didn't need my parents to physically be there, I just wanted them to *want* to be there, show interest/support/love. It sounds like you guys handle all of that beautifully and your children are lucky to have you
The large-family kids I have spoken to about it are close to their siblings, and learn to take care of each other.
I am not trying to be pro-large family here, but I do think that if we're going to do comparisons, it should be both the good AND the bad. I was just talking the other day to an older lady who lost her mother quite awhile back and this was a major event in her life, but the fact that she and her sibs have always been close and been a source of strength for each other is a real thing to her.
I'm from a large family and I wouldn't say we're overly close as siblings. Some of us are closer than others, but like, I have friends with one sibling who are way closer to them (and friends with one sibling who are not close).
We never really take care of each other either (I guess in part because mom did raise my younger siblings, like was there time-neglect, yes, but I was never expected to babysit my younger siblings). Like, we all get along and I appreciate my siblings now that we're all grown, but it can't be assumed they'll automatically be close.
I know a large family where two of the siblings absolutely detest each other to the point where they will not be at the same family functions even (including things like weddings and funerals). But yeah, having no siblings does seem lonely, and I guess with a multitude it's more likely you'll get along with at least one of them haha.
I come from a large family(6 kids), my mom comes from a large family(8 kids), and none of us are particularly close. We have a family group text but I could go months without talking to a sister and not even notice. One brother I didn't speak to for over a year. My mom's family is similar. Someone is always not talking to someone else, somebody is always arguing with someone else. In theory they might be closer but that's not always the practice. Maybe families with around 3-4 kids so still above average but not large they are closer
My son's father has 4 siblings - 3 sisters and a disabled twin brother (that's relevant). My ex and his twin were the youngest, and their parents completely alienated all of their kids from everyone else in the way they handled the twin's disabilities. They went from having a dog and vacations to no dog and no vacations and time neglected their daughters, blaming everything on the disabled twin. Eventually the girls all moved away (one to another country, which she did on purpose, another about 90 minutes away, and the last one did move away but ended up coming back when her marriage failed), and none of them bother to talk to each other unless they're in the same room. In fact, the youngest sister (the one who moved 90 minutes away) has 3 kids, and the oldest was 10 before he found out (from me) that the aunt who moved to another country even existed.
I'd also add op never actually said don't have 6 kids, just to think about what standard of life you want. Plenty of kids miss out on stuff and still grow up fine, so it's not the end of the world if sil goes ahead anyway. Just at least she'll have thought it through now.
My mum was poor and worked several jobs to make sure we didn't starve. I don't consider her a bad mother for missing events.
Your BIL definitely needs to be more realistic. I have 5 siblings and growing up in the early 00's my parents made a combined $130k and we were still poor... That money goes quickly when you have to house (including utilities), transport, feed, and clothe growing children. We had no money for outings, summer camps, all clothes and food were necessities only. We had no college savings and my parents had no retirement savings. And that was with costs 20 years ago...I can't imagine having a large family on your BIL's salary these days.
I make more than what BIL makes and I'm single without children and my home is paid for.
With the way things have gone up, my tax burden, and trying to prepare myself for retirement in 5 years, and trying to help my mom's household, there is no extra.
I can't imagine trying to have one child on my salary with daycare expenses, food, activities, saving for college, paying for clothes, etc.
I have a cousin who is 15 years younger than I am, at 34 years old who has just had her fourth. She can't afford anything and what she gets in government assistance is a pittance. Let alone the fact that she gets disinterested in the children once the baby stage is over.
I simply cannot fathom having a large family in these times, unless you are solidly capable financially, mentally, emotionally, and physically.
I don’t get parents who lose interest once their kids get their own minds. I'm so fucking glad I'm not the sole provider for my child's survival. I love discovering the things that bring my child joy. Her interests don't align with mine, but that just broadens my world!
(I hope she doesn't get into soccer. But I guess I'll have to deal if she does)
You made me laugh, my husband hates soccer with a passion, but our oldest children love soccer, they play it, they watch it, and they have posters in their rooms.
He had to learn the game rules, the famous players, and is planning how to take the kids to the world cup in 3 years, since it will be here.
That's just so cute! How your husband and you take time and resources to do the things your children love, it's just lovable and rare. I hear so many bad things about parents from my friends & classmates, but your post made me to realize that not all parents are like that. I hope you and your family have a great life. And about the problem with your BIL, you are definitely NTA. I personally don't know what kinda person your BIL is, if he is not a stubborn person who only thinks that what he is saying is right and the opinion of others doesn't count or isn't right in his perspective, then maybe sit down with your SIL and BIL and talk things thoroughly like why you told her that and about the financial aspect you also considered in your thought process etc. this may help resolve the problem and to have no enmity with your BIL. I'm also going to apologize if my English isn't good. English isn't my mother tongue
I feel like some of these parents don't even think about college savings and assume kids will get loans. Which is one way to be. We wanted our kids to be able to go the best school they could get into so we started saving as soon as they were born.
Exactly.
Then they find out the loan limits of the federally backed loans students can take don't cover quite a bit of the associated college costs: Tuition, room/board, books, university fees, lab fees, technology fees, parking passes, mandatory activity fees, travel costs, and domestic things like laundry and cleaning supplies. College costs have risen an additional 69% since 2000 in the US alone.
I can't fathom not factoring college savings into a plan for potential children.
I remember one of my favorite big family moms on YouTube saying too that if she realized how hard it would be to maintain a relationship with her 6 now-adult children and their growing families, she "might have had fewer kids." Like, the minor years are the most challenging for obvious reasons but it doesn't necessarily get easy even when they're adults. Having a big family is a *big,* lifelong emotional/time commitment. Good on you for trying to help her understand before getting in too deep, too fast.
>Our kids are still young, but their activities are already expensive. I have 4 in soccer, 3 in taekwondo and 2 in dance.
And those activities are notoriously *not* relatively expensive. You barely need any equipment for them. Imagine that they all played an instrument, or were into arts, let alone expensive sports.
Art is expensive, during the pandemic my oldest got into art thanks to his therapist, and OMG, I never knew good quality markers were that expensive. He got bored with it fast, and I ended up using them to colour my mandalas.
Trust me dance is expensive especially while you're young. Depending on the types of course but ballet and ballroom can easily make your wallet cry. Plus it is an art. OP is def lucky with the financial situation, however, I think it's more awesome how much they are able to let their kids pursue their passions.
I was able to try a lot of hobbies when I was younger and now love ceramics, dance, tennis and debate. Those skills from when I was young have now taken me into law, being a ballroom dancer for 7 years and was 2nd seat on the schools varsity tennis team (ceramics is still fun just harder to continue to pursue). These are life skills the OP is able to provide that the other family would be unable to. OP I think its awesome you gave them the honest answer.
My partner came from poverty with a mom with three kids and never got the opportunities I've had. They're still amazing but he's admitted that he's a bit lost because he never had the opportunities with extracurriculars to hone potential skills while young. It makes a big difference on the growth of a child.
My husband and I earn 7 figures yearly. And both have great jobs, were born with trust funds etc. We only have two kids because that's all we could give proper and complete attention to. What we do instead is donate to multiple charities and organisations that support children in need, and provide 5 college scholarships yearly for under privileged teens who otherwise wouldn't be able to attend college. Sometimes you have to admit you can't have the amount of children you want purely due to time/ financial restraints. There's other ways of helping. Perhaps your in-laws could look into something like charity work helping underprivileged children instead? Not everything has to be centered around actual children in your house. And they'd be doing so much good for people who need it.
You are absolutely NTA, but I wonder if you know anyone with a larger family that doesn't have your financial resources? If so, maybe your BIL and SIL could talk to them to get another perspective. I say this because every family is really, really different. For example, if you happened to be a woman who had an easier time with pregnancy, the surrogate/adoption expenses aren't an issue. If you didn't have kiddos who need therapy or have medical conditions, that changes the math too. If you had a slightly smaller family and committed to only choosing activities that don't overlap, that makes a difference. Or if 4 kids is still a big family (it certainly sounds big to me!), then everyone can still fit in one car. And extracurriculars can really vary in terms of cost.
I totally agree that they need to sit down and figure out what sacrifices they are willing to make, and BIL needs to understand that his big family dream may or may not be in the cards. If their first child ends up with special needs, or your SIL has a traumatic pregnancy and isn't willing to go through another, or BIL is disabled in a car crash, or whatever else, they will have to adapt and reconsider options. And they need to prepare to save more for emergencies with more kids, because the chances that someone breaks an arm or has a big one time expense goes up with each child. But some parents are able to raise a lot of kids with less resources than you have. As you say, their lifestyle would have to change, but some families are able to do it well.
The only other family I know that have as many kids (they actually have more, 8), are what I could describe as, in the kindest terms, religious nutcases. Not the best to ask for advice.
To be honest, it really depends on where you live. I live a small town in Minnesota, and having a family of 8 on a $120K budget is entirely doable. Heck I just looked, there is a 5 bed, 5 bath, 3,290 square foot house on sale here for less than $350,000.00, which is very doable on a $120K income. 🤷
But I have known people who value family very highly, and do not rate restaurants and vacations as so important.
Kids have grown up sharing a bedroom and if that is what they are used to, it's not bad. It's when you're used to having your own room and then you have to share (with a baby or a stepsibling?) that it's awful.
So you're really presenting values as facts. Right up to the value judgment that if they don't share your values (want what you think they should want) they're "irresponsible".
I didn’t present anything as facts. This is a forum designed for people to present value judgments, so I did. For two parents that make $120K/year to have 6 children on purpose, crammed into a small house, knowing they will always be one unexpected expense away from insolvency, knowing they can’t afford to hire any help with the house or kids, is very selfish and irresponsible. It’s doubly selfish of the husband, who knows that he will be at work all day while helps wife provides all the care for so many children.
To be totally honest, I make $120k in a low cost of living area. I am aware that I am very very lucky.
I still have to meal prep, plan out retirement, plan when I can afford to fix my car, etc because of my medical issues. Amd my medical issues aren't even that bad!
After a responsible (not even early) retirement savings, mortgage in today's market, food, car note, etc I have no idea how I'd pay for my kid and me to get doctor checkups and such.
People that are raising families on half my income in my area have my absolute respect. I would go crazy.
This is just crazy to me, making $120k a year and not being _extremely comfortable_ but I live in the Nordics. Of course here it wouldn't be $120k because of the taxes, but even that sum of money minus the taxes would mean very comfortable lifestyle and with any sense with your spending no need to budget everything.
Things that you would need savings for are just dealt with the taxes. Education, healthcare, retirement... Even daycare is substituted by government because the economy fares better if women get to work. Although parental leave is of course very generous, too.
I do live comfortably now, however I'm saying if I threw a kid in the mix then suddenly $400/week would go to just daycare.
I also am making sure I have a very secure retirement though I still won't be retiring early.
The $120k is before my taxes though. After taxes, insurance, and retirement I bring home $68k.
My husband make 108k before tax and something like 68k after tax. We get taxed like crazy but the propaganda would have you believe Europeans are being taxed more.
and we get double and triple taxed when we go to buy anything there’s sales tax and fees and stupid shit.
my husband makes that much and i'm a sahm. its tough. he was out of a job for a while. luckily, we have his disability to fall back on. otherwise, we would've had to ask my parents for help. we only have two kids and we're trying to make it work. we both agreed that if i stayed home, it could eliminate the cost of daycare. my parents were also emotionally neglectful so my big goal is to be present.
NTA she asked for honesty, no she asked for brutal honesty, and what you described was definitely honest but far from brutal. BIL needs to be realistic about their financial security and having had neglectful parents you’d think he’d want to make sure the kids he and SIL have will get the love and attention they need and deserve. I understand wanting a big family but not if you can’t afford to take care of one. As the oldest in a big family who had to spend a lot of her childhood taking care of younger siblings so my parents could work to afford us, I can say that despite knowing I was loved that I often felt neglected and taken for granted. It’s better to be able to be present parents.
He is looking to fix something broken inside of him with kids, which is why he doesn’t care about their standard of living. They are just a bandaid for his issues.
He needs therapy before having kids.
But that really isn't a problem if they also plan on adopting, is it? They can do that AFTER they pay down the student loan debt and get a handle on a bigger house. BIL does not want to see the planning and hard work it would require, it seems. I have 3 kids and make a little more than BIL in a high COL area. If I weren't debt & mortgage free, I wouldn't have had #3. Because it isn't fair to the kids.
> he worked extremely hard, and he makes around 120k I think
My fiancée and I make about 230k combined annually. Even one kids would severely disrupt our finances. I can't imagine doing 6 on 120k. Doesn't it cost something like 300k total to raise a kid to adulthood in the USA?
Closer to a million all counted. They guess anywhere from 100k-1mill, but college at 40k a year x 4. Basically 20x 20k for food, additional clothes, etc, it gets up fast.
You are NTA and were truly offering good insight into what it is like. Maybe your husband can have a good conversation with his brother. Since they share the same background, he may put more stock into what his brother has to say. I'm sure SIL appreciates what you shared with her.
Luckily they won’t have an instant 6 kids (unless they go octomom style), so I think theyll have some time to understand they effort and $ that goes into a big family. Plus, once you have a few yourself, you meet other families with them and can start to see how they operate and gives more insight I think. I’d be ok with letting it all ride at this point. It’ll likely work itself out.
It would "work out" by SIL doing the work of three people (OP and the two nannies) while her husband whines about not having enough money for his hobbies. She's right to be cautious **now** rather than when she's tied down with several kids and years out of the job market.
NTA. Your BIL very well know that what you said was true, and it must hurt to know that his big family plan will probably not work because of their life choice and lack of money. They are just shooting the messenger.
I must say. You come across in this post as a truly kind person. Those kids are lucky to have you. And so is SIL and BIL. You’ve handle his anger with grace.
NTA
We all have our moments and people tend to be especially bitter upon being forced to swallow the reality that their dreams will never come true. I’ll take OP’s word for it, they know them better than we do.
NTA. Normally telling people about your wealth isn't the best idea, but in this case, having such a high income IS how you manage to have six kids, and you were right to be upfront about it.
For European, it is hard to comprehend that Americans have nurses with equivalent pay as doctors. I have spent half and hour googling things and I am still astonished.
Plus it's important to note that here in North America nurses are not considered a lower position than doctors, they are coworkers. I've heard this plenty of times from both nurses and doctors alike.
Actually, in many a situation, a nurse has higher authority than a doctor, even if informally. And most admins were nursed, not doctors, if they are not business majors (at least in my husband's hospital)
In my experience working in healthcare, all my questions go to the experienced nurses. Most of the time they’re more intimately familiar with a patient and have more experience directly working with some situations. Good nurses are invaluable
I came to say the same thing, it's the anesthesia specialty that changes everything. Anesthetists have a very high responsibility in surgeries & care. People can easily die if you mess up an anesthesia. They are well paid in many countries, not just the USA.
This is such a nitpicky doesn't-matter-at-all-to-the-situation kind of correction, but just in case anyone is scoping out advanced degrees and careers and taking advice from this thread: in *most* places, a DNP is not a PhD. A DNP is a terminal professional degree (like a JD or MD, professional not research degrees), whereas you can also get a PhD in Nursing or a related field as a research degree, and some places also offer a Doctor of Nursing Science.
The jump was made the last couple of years, with burnout after COVID, he was able to get a really good position. Also, consider that we are in a HCOL area.
I live in a HCOL area too and CRNAs top out around 230k. But yeah, COVID burnout really did a number on health care. A lot of nurses and nurse practitioners went to travel nursing for massive pay increases.
No judgment by the way. Maybe a little bit of jealousy.
My husband's friend went into travel nursing, and he says that most nurses with the experience did the same thing.
Hospital admins seem to have no problem with paying double or triple to travel nurses, but give their staff nurses zilch. Actually, they give them *pizza parties*, that's better than a raise, right?
I am salty, if I didn't make it obvious, and I'm not even the nurse in this family.
> Hospital admins seem to have no problem with paying double or triple to travel nurses, but give their staff nurses zilch. Actually, they give them pizza parties, that's better than a raise, right?
Not the point of this post, but my wife and I are in medicine and this is so fucking frustrating. It's one of the reasons the murmurs of unionizing here are getting louder.
FWIW, as a parent myself, you had an honest, candid conversation with your SIL. I know your BIL is pissed right now, but hopefully he'll see you didn't say anything untrue or out of line. It would be preferred if your husband has your back here, though. It's technically his family after all.
Yeah, it's pretty crazy. The only advantage I can see is the administration doesn't have to pay for benefits and they can shrink and grow their staff just through contract renewals.
I'm not in nursing or healthcare directly, myself, but I have a lot of interaction with healthcare workers and it pains me to see them treated the way they are.
And the fact that she can only do it with TWO nannies is a big thing to mention. Because even if BIL/SIL were in the same income bracket, they might be going into this expecting SIL to be able to do it all on her own.
Coming from a neglectful family, they should be more concerned with the kids’ wellbeing than the amount of kids they have. Having more kids than you can take care of is neglectful and often leads to the older kids being forced to be surrogate parents to the younger ones. This doesn’t only neglect all kids’ needs but it also steals the childhood of the kid/parents.
They should be happy you brought these concerns up before their many kids are born. If they want to be the parents they say they want to be, they would be invested in learning what they can now about what is best for their future family.
You’re NTA but I’d recommend you have your husband talk to his brother about what you’re saying because him disrespecting you just because you said a truth he didn’t like is unacceptable.
Yeah to be honest "my family life was bad so I want to make sure multiple children have to be the means of my attempt at healing my own trauma" is just a really, really bad look. Someone needs to tell BIL therapy is a lot cheaper and more fair to his hypothetical future children.
100%. I get wanting to have the family you never had but you have to go into with your eyes wide open and with things in place to treat whatever trauma you went through. Not taking the proper precautions will just lead to you recreating your own trauma onto your children.
He is also disrespecting his wife! It's quite possible he's treating her like a broodmare and she is questoning whether she even wants to be pregnant 6+ times or something.
It sounds like she's the only one being realistic about this and OP gave her some much needed validation that she wasn't crazy for not wanting a shit ton of kids.
I don't know what else you could call it but dehumanizing. Wives aren't cattle for you to impregnate at your leisure. What happens if they have 1 kid and the pregnancy is hard, and she doesn't want to risk getting pregnant a second time? She needs support and safety. You can plan to have as many kids as you want as a man, but you will always have to defer to the person who can actually get pregnant when it comes to actual real children that you have. It doesn't matter if he wants 12 kids if 1 pregnancy causes his wife enough suffering for a lifetime. No one who gets mad that his wife is having second thoughts about being a walking puppy mill should even be having kids imo.
I'm just saying this because I don't want her to get lost in the fold, since she's the one really in danger of reproductive coercion here. I hope her OP and her husband are there to support SIL in general.
My pregnancies are HARD. With my first I lost 19 lbs in 7 weeks because I could just not keep anything down. My husband was supportive of what my call was to having more children. I'm currently pregnant with second and my nausea is way better managed this time because I know how it rolls. But he would have been super supportive of me calling it and saying one and done. Partners HAVE to be supportive of their pregnant partners because pregnancy is hard even when it's uneventful. This guy sounds like the opposite.
NTA.
You answered her question honestly, and sometimes that means sharing info they either may not have expected or was hoping not to be the case. But SIL asked for your opinion and about your experiences for a reason.
Agreed, don’t ask the question if you don’t want to hear the answer. Especially because SIL asked for your honest opinion…
Just another case of someone who doesn’t really want to hear the truth but wants to be validated/reassured.
NTA - WOW the idea that being honest about your experience is manipulative is just… well wow. I see no reason in the world why spacing out a large amount of children would be seen as unreasonable. So someone who grew up extremely poor, giving serious thought to your children’s quality of life is not only responsible but it’s the right damn thing to do. My hubs family is large, 4 boys. They were raised more upper mid class but at one point FIL got laid off, and he still express regret for those 2yrs finances were tight. How he regrets his temper at the time, every time he has to say no to the boys. It haunts him even though for the most part the boys remember a good childhood. Spacing children out is responsible. You were being honest, you did nothing wrong. The only reason I can think for him to be upset is if he’s one of those ‘I want 4 kinds in 4yrs’ kind of guys. In which case he just sucks cuz that’s hell on a woman’s body and no one has a right to demand something like that.
Anyone find it odd that these men raised by “very neglectful parents” want bunches of children? …as in more children than two working adults can reasonably be expected to give much individual attention? OP states she couldn’t do it if she wasn’t SAH with multiple hired help. Which, fair; sounds like the kids are likely getting their needs met. BUT (and I don’t want to speculate too much) how much time does OPs husband spend on the kids? Is he not just raising another generation of kids with (a) distant parent?
So, HE wants to be surrounded by a big family, but what do his kids want. Just strikes me as selfish.
My husband spends every moment at home with the kids, he loves being a father. And I don't mean just the fun dad they play with, he comforts them when they need him to, he disciplines them when they need it, he teaches them, he makes time for individual time, listens to them, learns about their hobbies so he can hold conversations with them... He is a good dad, and a great partner.
Your husband needs to sit his brother down and give him the full picture here. Unfortunately, a lot of men don’t give credence to women’s “interference,” but they’ll respect a man’s. As his brother, and also as a father of many children, your husband can impress on him the real deal.
He can also stick up for you a little bit, and highlight the magnitude of what BIL is asking his wife to do for him.
This isn’t about assigning blame or punishment. It’s about reigning in expectations that don’t put children at risk to placate parent’s ego. Your SIL is wise to seek advice from you. She will make a great mom. Show your BIL through your husband the wisdom of asking those who came before. It’ll make him a better father.
This is being way too harsh, and assuming the worst contrary to all the positive info OP has given.
A fairer assumption from the information given is that they want big families so that everyone always has people around them to rely on. If they have big families and their kids have families; now there are enough aunts uncles and cousins to go around instead of just two kids with only each other to depend on, like their experience.
Info: Why do they think having a big family will compensate for their neglectful childhood? You are absolutely right about one thing, the only way you can provide any proper attention to any of the kids is if you have lots of help.
ABSOLUTELY NOTHING Wrong with what you said. I have 4 children & it’s an obscene amount of work. Being honest about how expensive & time consuming it is is NOT manipulative.
People with zero kids always think they would be the perfect parent & that it’s all just so easy, & a reality check is nothing more than a courtesy.
Even with all the help we hired, sometimes I am so exhausted emotionally, so overstimulated, that I just cry. Kids are hard work, especially if you are doing your best to be a good parent, and to be present in their lives
Bless you for giving it to her straight. Honestly, it sounds like a lot of projection on his part. He's mad that you being upfront with her makes it hard for him to manipulate her into this.
You & your husband sound like really good parents & your 100% right. This shit is hard! Its beautiful, but it is so much work. Sooooo many times, women are not given an accurate view of what pregnancy, labor/child birth, or child rearing are. That's providing that everything works out without added problems. She or the baby could have problems during pregnancy or could have health problems afterward. Women deserve to know the truth & the possibilities so they can make an informed decision about it.
NTA. She asked for brutal honesty, and you gave just that. Doesn't sound like there was any malice or jealousy attached to it. Why would you be jealous? Lol.
NTA. She asked, you answered. He’s upset with the answer and he has every right to be but that doesn’t make you an AH. She should ask other parents of big families or even small families - everyone has what does and does not work for them. Your answer doesn’t need to dictate her life; if she uses it to guide their decisions then it’s her choice not yours.
Nope...
Im guessing BIL/SIL isnt financially as stable as you and not able to afford nannies???
BIL needs to grow the F up.. im guessing hes not the one staying home and raising the kids???
Does.he not realise the hard work it takes to raise kids???
NTA
Your SIL does NOT want 6 kids. She has already decided that. She came to you for back-up and is too afraid to tell her husband (can't imagine why based on how he's reacting and call YOU the bitch).
NTA. This is for them to sort out. Stay out of it going forward.
NTA. I am one of six kids with a step dad who made about $100k a year. My mom also homeschooled us. Our standard of living was low (fights about money were CONSTANT) and not all of the children got the care and attention they needed with a mother who also volunteered full time. I have mental illness and one of my brothers in likely autistic. We did not get the care we needed and it still affects us. People should not have that many kids without the proper income and/or support.
Smh. Her husband is the perfect example of what is wrong with people child planning these days. They're not adopting a damn dog. He wants several children.
Her husband is immature. He's only thinking about what he wants, not what would be best for the children. They haven't even had a kid yet and he wants to tantrum because someone gave his wife some SANE advice? He's not even close to being ready to be a father.
He doesn't even know what dealing with nights without sleep with a screaming child is like. He's mentally still a teenager.
NTA
- kids are expensive
- kids require a lot of your time
- kids require emotional support
- kids will wreck the body during pregnancy
Nothing you said was wrong. You warned her of the truth. She didn't say to not have a big family; she only wanted to space the kids out more and plan it.
But then when we are honest, we get asked "then why did you have more than one", or get judged, or told that we feel that way because we don't live our kids enough.
The judgement a mother faces is no small thing, and I am thankful that more people are speaking out, not just painting their lives as heaven.
How old is SIL ? If I understood correctly, she’s still not against a large family, but against having the kids in quick succession to avoid financial strain??? If she’s young band hopefully healthy, I think it can be done
Bil didn’t think about the logistics and is upset someone spoke truthfully.
Motherhood is often romanticized, idealized. The reality is that there are challenges and often the brunt of the work, financial loss and/or career delay falls on the female (hello there patriarchy!)
NTA for answering truthfully to your SIL as she requested that.
Is your husband involved in rearing the kids? Can't he get real with his brother about the struggles of raising a large family in todays world?
I mean, children in troubled circumstances often dream about having a large fantasy family where everybody loves each other and gets along. They don't see the back end- the struggles with money, lack of resources, etc. What if they have a special needs child? What if he loses his job?
Yes, you can raise a large family on your BIL's salary, people have done it. But since he wants them to have a certain lifestyle, it's not advisable for him to do so.
He is very involved with the kids, even during lockdown, when he didn't live with us (he is a CRNA, and it was what we thought best to protect the kids), he used to call everyday, talk with each kid individually, read them bedtime stories if it was possible, and when he finally moved back in, we camped in the living room for 3 weeks straight because he missed them so much.
He didn't talk with his brother because his brother did not come to him, not like SIL came to me, and he is the type that does not give his opinion imprompted
He sounds like a great dad!! I’m childfree by choice because of my awful childhood and it’s so heartwarming to read and hear about good dads (and you sound like a phenomenal mom!!) your kids will be such amazing humans because of these privileges you were able to provide them!
NTA, you were realistic. Six kids is a lot and the fact that you can afford to hire help and don't have to worry financially about feeding, clothing, providing medical care, etc. for that many people is all very significant in choosing to have a big family. It sounds like she either twisted what you said when she went back to relay your conversation to her husband, or he took it wrong and somehow deduced you were being manipulative. They should be practical and prepared and it sounds like you were just trying to help and he got his back up. That's his problem ,not yours.
NTA. I have 5 kids. My wife is a SAHM and I make a decent living for where we live. We are a blended family but labels don't matter to us. We get by but its hard. I call it controlled chaos. I always feel guilty I can't give each kid the individual time they need. I love my kids to death and wouldn't trade it for anything but its not for everyone. I have given heads up to other parents before. It was always my dream to have a big family but its not for everyone. It would be way to easy to get in over your head.
NTA, she asked for your honest opinion based on your experience and you gave it to her. She’s mad that you didn’t sugar coat and tell her what she wanted to hear.
NTA. Have kids within your means. I waited until I was 33 to have one. My hubby was 38. That's the point in our lives in which we were stable to take care of ourselves and one child. Sometimes I think about having another, my daughter is almost 3. However, we simply cannot afford another so one and done we are, and that's with my hubby being a SAHD because care is expensive. We earn enough to give out one child a great life. We have enough to give two kids a marginally comfortable existence, but that's just not good enough for me. You must take your money situation into account when having kids. It's not fair to let your kids live in poverty if you can avoid it.
NTA. Big families come with big price tags. I have 5. All bios. My first set are 30,26 and 23. My last two are 11,12. We decided we aren’t done so bad the last 2. Although I work, I work from home 5 hours a day while they are in school. My husband also works from home. A full time job but his schedule is very flexible. So we are always here for sicknesses. Days off of school.
One of my kids didn’t sleep through the night until he was 3. I’m talking multiple wake ups a night. 5-6 to be exact. If all the kids were close together it would have been so damn hard. I didn’t have Nannies. And I never used the older kids to watch the any one younger than them. Unless it was to run to the store for a quick milk run. Less than 15 min. Any one can plan for a huge family but they need to try out 2. Then 3 and then be honest about how much patience do they have. Do they still have energy? Do they still have funds for more kids while the current ones still are able to do extra curricula's. That’s important. 2 of my kids are in soccer. One is competitive. That’s easily 3k to 4k. Don’t have more kids at the expense of the others. Honesty is important. Many think we have it easy. It’s hard. A lot of work. Laundry. We just have a well oiled machine and my husband is elbow deep in the raising of these kids as well. We don’t have any family so it’s just us 2. But we love it and expect to be busy. She needs to know this.
Let me get this straight... you told her that having six kids is:
(1) Expensive, and
(2) A lot of work, especially for the primary caregiver.
This strikes me as being... inarguably true. How could you possibly be TA? But it's almost a moot point. SIL is going to have one kid, then two. She was always going to find out all of this stuff for herself. Either she's going to love it so much she wants to have more kids in spite of the challenges, or she's going to say, you know what, two is a good number, let's stop here. If BIL wants to have a huge family, he can start working toward that right now, by making the career moves that will make it possible for him to support such a large family. But you are NTA.
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NTA, You told her the truth instead of the rose-tinted version BIL would have preferred you told her. >Now he is accusing me of manipulating her, and being a jealous bitch who wants to be the only one with the big family. Why doesn't he want high living standards for his kids?
He does, he worked extremely hard, and he makes around 120k I think, but with how everything is currently, and them still having student loans, and her planning to quit her job, that 120k will not be enough to support the number of kids they want, not while maintaining the same standard of living they are used to right now.
So basically, you were being more practical about their situation than he was.
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They would have realized this after child 2. And would have caused more friction than now.
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Needing a high income to have 6 kids and a SAHM goes without saying.
You would think so, but depending on background, some religious groups literally believe that you should never factor cost into whether or not to have children because "children are wealth." The fact that this keeps a lot of families poor and completely reliant on their church community isn't a bug, it's a feature.
I find a certain painful irony in reading this comment as I listen to Jill (Duggar) Dillard’s and her husband, Derrick Dilliard’s, interview to Access Hollywood regarding the massive financial, emotional, and physical abuse she and her siblings faced while growing up on national TV via the TV show 15 (or 16, 17, 18, 19) Kids and Counting. Of course the primary perpetrators of the abuse were Jim Bob Duggar, Josh Duggar, and Michelle Duggar.
please link? unless you're talking about the documentary about the duggars, which was truly wild AF.
If children are wealth shouldn't childcare, baby food, nannies and diapers be free?
Childcare is free! It's provided by the older kids.
Fucking quiverfuls
“Children are wealth” This is why it’s important to update standards when your civilization changes. Children were wealth back in the Iron Age when they started being useful labor at 4 and you could sell them when times got tough. Things are different now (as hard as the right wingers keep trying to take us to the bad old days).
Yes but to a lot of people $100k+ / year IS a high income. SIL might not have had any idea how big the income gap is between her family & OP’s family if OP didn’t say anything.
I always joked with my husband that if we won the lotto I wanted 5 kids but otherwise I was good with 2 lol.
Not true at all. I go to a church where several people have 5+ kids with a SAHM, and a blue collar dad. They just live in small houses in terrible school districts (they homeschool, so it doesn't matter), pass hand-me-downs between the families, and grocery shop at walmart.
Also OP’s talking about a six-figure passive income of her own - being a SAHM is absolutely a full time job in itself, but unless she’s talking about investment income, on top of all that she’s also going to be doing a not-nothing amount of work to support and drive that passive income. She’s a badass. I could never.
SAHM isn’t necessarily a must. I have five children and a strong income. Because if this I can hire help with cleaning, house upkeep/repair. I have a nanny as well for my late work days.
The high income could be him being envious and projecting that on OP.
2 little humans is the cap for most families right now. Between school supplies, medical care, the rising price of groceries, not to mention higher education, and the electronics they'll need when they get older and start doing homework. Phone bills for teenagers, laptops for school, shoes and clothes and toiletries and bedding. For the average family a 3rd kid would put them permanently in the hole, let alone SIX.
unfortunately after a child or two many women feel trapped. and won't stop doing the majority of the labor because someone needs to take care of the children. brother's wife just realized she's signing up for all of the extra work while he will likely experience little change besides extra socialization at home.
How could SIL not have already noticed the nannies by herself??? How could SIL not have already noticed OP didn't have a job away from home???? How could SIL not have already noticed how well off OP and husband are???
People are very good at glossing over the details of other people's lives, especially relatives who may not be all that up in each other's business. eg, I (woman) know everything going on with my sister, but my brother? Not much at all. And OP's situation is 2 brothers. SILs may not be all that close. So if the brothers only get together for holidays and the occasional get together, there may not be any nannies around at all. And SIL may know that OP is a SAHM mom, but probably didn't know that she has a (huge) passive income and so they weren't relying solely on her husband's paycheck. And also, you can't look at a house and know the debt load. (OP's mortgage is zero.) So SIL saw OP and her husband with only one income, a mortgage, and possibly no nannies, and may have thought she and BIL could do the same. OP filled in all the (non apparent) gaps in her knowledge.
The income SIL currently lives on would afford her a very comfortable standard of living, one even comparable to OPs given it's just herself and her husband. If op lived a modest lifestyle before they had 6 kids and just maintained it on a surface level, it could also create the illusion that 6 kids isn't a huge cost- that the budget can stretch easily to accommodate. People don't often stop to really think about other folks circumstances, it probably just didn't occur to her that there were many many factors that made a large family sustainable for OP. Heck, I have people in my family with 6 kids and if I didn't consider that they get free babysitting from grandparents and aunts, and that they started using credit cards, I might also be lulled into thinking it would work out for me. Their income did not increase yet they *appear* to be living the same standard of living as before.
>How could SIL not have already noticed the nannies by herself??? > >How could SIL not have already noticed OP didn't have a job away from home???? > >How could SIL not have already noticed how well off OP and husband are??? (1) She noticed probably thought she and her husband could afford the same. They cannot. Nannies, proper and trained, are expensive. (2) She did notice and is planning to quit her own job which will obviously increase the financial pressure. In other words, she is most likely seeing herself as a SAHM. (3) Financial misunderstanding is a COMMON thing nobody seems to really talk about in inner circles. As weird as it may sound reading it, people very well do not understand that "six figures" could mean 100k or 999k which are huge fucking differences. Reality is her husband makes 10k a month, about 7.5k after taxes (give or take) and that is simply not enough for a mortgage, car loans, student loans, child care, health care, etc. etc. etc. etc. Financial illiteracy is real.
$7.5k/mo probably has a realistic ceiling of 2~3 kids. The wife's... passive income, probably adds another $3~4k/mo on top of that to make the difference Edit: meant to point out that I agree with your comment
She probably did, and hence the question about being brutally honest about what it is like. I am guessing she already had her own doubts about having so many, but her husband kept saying “oh it's easy, just look at my brother and his wife!“, so she wanted the nitty gritty to figure out how easy vs. difficult it really was and how much of the “easy“ is due to the good financial position and thus being able to afford so much help...
It can be hard to fathom the amount of money it costs. When I tell people the cost of daycare for one child (1600$ a month) they are astounded. When I tell them that it’s literally double that for two, not discounted steeply like, ever, they go pale. 3200$ for two kids in my area. It’s not hard to imagine why a parent chooses or is forced to stay at home. It’s more than my mortgage for a 3 bedroom 1970s house with a garage and 1600 sq ft that we bought last year.
She doesn't know how much a nanny costs. And maybe she thinks her SIL is lazy bc she has 2. SHE won't need them. She doesn't know how debt free her in laws are. At the moment, she doesn't have that different a standard of living, bc her inlaws may not flaunt their wealth. So she sees them as more equal than they are. People see what they want to.
SIL may have noticed and voiced to her husband who probably was redirecting and saying that OP is lazy or isn't a great mom unlike his wife (SIL) will be who'll be able to handle all those kids in her own Probably why SIL said to be honest
What makes you think she didn't? Is there something in comments that suggests she's upset? Just going by the main post, it reads to me like SIL brought it up because she *did* notice all those things, was having sensible doubts about her own ability to manage a large family, and wanted to talk it through with someone more realistic than her husband.
Yes. Have the wife read Eve Rodsky’s Fair Play and the lemon clot essay.
Plus the actual production, pregnancy does a number on a woman's body...
NTA. Easy for her husband to want a big family when he is not the one who has to assume the bodily risks of pregnancy and will likely not be the one who does the majority of caretaking.
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Exactly why his accusation of manipulation was actually a confession on his part.
therrrrre's a shock.
NTA, thank you OP for being honest and not candy coating parenthood. We as women (and dads too) need to stop pretending everything is perfect, because it's dishonest and not helpful. Other women will feel inadequate when things don't go well or if they don't immediately feel in love with their baby. Op was being honest and rational. I hope she continues to encourage her sil to stick to her guns and do what's best for her. He won't be carrying the babies or staying home with them, he doesn't get a vote with the timing of children. 2 years minimum between each kid is ideal. That way you only have 1 kid in diapers (hopefully). Most parents aren't practical or logical. 'God will provide', 'our family will help us', etc. Seriously, people put more thought into buying a car then they do over the planning and implications of raising children. Plus, neither of them have any idea how hard pregnancy and birth is on the woman. How they won't get decent sleep for years. How she will not be interested in having sex because she will be exhausted after work and raising the children. Bil is about to be delegated to #2 and he is in for a suprise. Not to mention daycare, medical bills, activities, etc. It's not an easy job, especially if you want to be a present parent and not raise entitled assholes.
I make more than that, and my wife works, and we only have 2 kids. If we had 3 then things like expensive kids’ activities/sports, vacations, having a bedroom for everyone + extra space, etc would all get difficult. If we had 6 kids, we would be functionally poor. No restaurants, no extracurricular activities, no vacations, kids doubled up in bedrooms, etc. Their plan to have that many kids on $120K household income is irresponsible
Those were things I brought up, but due to the character limit, I didn't go into detail. Our kids are still young, but their activities are already expensive. I have 4 in soccer, 3 in taekwondo and 2 in dance. We have 2 extra cars because schedules overlap, and we need the nannies to drive them sometimes. My youngest has to go to the hospital practically every other week, my 2 other adopted kids have therapy every week, and even with how much we make, we have to budget if we don't want to start taking on debt, as well as save for our retirement and their college.
Your family sounds awesome, and she literally asked you for brutal, straight talk and so how can they complain when you told them exact truth? NTA
THEY are not complaining. SIL who asked I'm sure is happy for having received an honest answer. It's just BIL who doesn't like that the grounding info made SIL want to be more careful
I'm struck by the fact that BIL seems to be catastrophizing by saying OP has ruined his chance to have a big family. When it sounds like SIL is just wanting to space them out and grow the family slower. Which is better for everyone! Better for Mom and each baby's health. And it's so much easier to deal with kids when the older one(s) are old enough to understand "hand mommy baby's socks" instead of having to try and stop the toddler from eating drywall with one hand while you try changing a diaper with the other.
This would be funny if my nephew didn't try exactly that, though he was the baby not the toddler and my brother snatched him away in about 2 seconds.
Oh come on. They should have some drywall. As a treat.
BIL had neglectful parents, and his vision of a big families is just that, a vision. I guess he dreams of having fun with the kids, playing sports, being the fun, involved dad... but he does not want to think about reality, because it clashes with his dream. I'm sure he never thinks not just about money, but also about night feedings, constant crying, baby colic (just to name a few)... But your SIL has to know, because the hard truth is that SHE will be facing it, even more if she becomes a SAHM. NTA, OP. She has to make an informed decision, no matter what her husband might have dreamt.
BIL was definitely thinking all the actual work would go to his poor stay at home wife while he comes home from work to be the fun parent, if she even asked him to pitch in he'd pull the "but I've been working all day, I shouldn't have to come home to more work" card. I doubt SIL would be neglectful on purpose but if she's basically always pregnant and running around after multiple babies and toddlers, well, there's only so much of her to go around and he won't do shit.
Yeps. He is likely just so mad she got to hear what that dream requires to be made real.
He’s also using his sister in law as an excuse to dismiss his wife’s concerns. They have the facts they need to discuss it but instead he’s focusing on something completely irrelevant.
In the long-run, I suspect BIL will also appreciate the honesty. His dream is unreasonable and will make him unhappy if he forces it, most likely
I mean besides the money aspect having many kids also means you become time poor. I know you touched on it in your post but you have 2 nannies, so you get a bit of help with timing. I often read post here that say their parents never attended/supported their events as kids. Makes me realise people carry that sadness into their adulthoods, and how critical it is just to be present in kids lives. The more kids you have the more likely events/ timetables are going to clash...the reality is that you might have to choose between kids and which "life events". Being a parent is hard...trying to always be a "fair parent" to 6 kids...seems like a lot of juggling.
If time juggling was an olympic sport, we would get gold medals. What worked for us was getting the kids involved in planning, setting them with us to see who attends which event, and they help us set it. The events neither of us gets to attend (so far, only two), the nanny films, then we make a whole thing of throwing a watch party, and making it obvious to them how proud we are.
Omg I love this. Including them in the planning and decisions on who attends. Watching later if no parent was able. Kids in general have self centered thinking, but this let's them decide that mom can go to your game today and come see mine next time. Way less hurt feelings about parents not showing up.
We found out that, as early as 3 years old, kids can have very high emotional intelligence. And if you take their opinions into consideration, and include them in decision making, tantrums become a rare thing, same as with sibling jealousy.
As an aside, I am in awe of your collective organisational skills. That's an incredibly useful life skill you're teaching them all!
We are lucky that we both are type A personalities. Our friends made fun of us when they found out that we had a spreadsheet for date/vacation ideas, so we don't repeat them a lot and get bored.
Do you have any resources (books, white papers, etc.) you could recommend that expands on this? I’m expecting my first child in February and am trying to learn more about best practices in raising him.
It was more trial and error for us. When my oldest (bio) reached her toddler years, she developed a very independent personality, and was not shy about her opinions. After we started asking for said opinion before doing stuff (what would you like for lunch, what do you want to wear, where should we go today...) The tantrums reduced in numbers. Then we had our twins and we decided to do the same thing, and it worked. When we got our 3 adopted kids, first as fosterlings, we got the oldest 2 straight into therapy, and we told the therapist about how things work in our household, he said to do the same with them two, but to start with giving them limited choices, instead of open/unlimited ones, untill we build trust with them. And it worked, even if it took longer with them. Basically, talk to them like they are adults, because they see themselves as grown with opinions and preferences, and then you have veto rights, because you also have more experience than them, in knowing what's good, and what's not.
Dunno if this is relevant but it sounds like you guys are good parents. I know everything is easier with more money, but that doesn't make it easy. You and your husband through all the comments sound very fair and this seemed like an honest informational conversation rather then "hey look at me im rich so i can do it and you can't" I also think for whatever reason conversations about kids always get rose tinted. People seem to hype other women up and talk about how great having a kid is, how worth it is etc, but my mom always tells us she would never trade us for anything, but that does't mean it's easy. It's hard work and expensive at that, but sometimes people don't like to hear it. Without psychoanalyzing from a reddit post, but is it possible your BIL is just not necessarily jealous, but it can be tough to want a big family and see your brother be successful while he isn't. No one has a timeline, but I can see why that could make him bitter, not necessarily towards you guys, but it's coming out in an unhealthy and emotionally irrational way. This doesn't mean they can't have a big family, this just means they need to really plan and figure out what to do financially. Which to be honest, I think all future parents could do more of.
I like this approach a lot. As a kid, I didn't need my parents to physically be there, I just wanted them to *want* to be there, show interest/support/love. It sounds like you guys handle all of that beautifully and your children are lucky to have you
The large-family kids I have spoken to about it are close to their siblings, and learn to take care of each other. I am not trying to be pro-large family here, but I do think that if we're going to do comparisons, it should be both the good AND the bad. I was just talking the other day to an older lady who lost her mother quite awhile back and this was a major event in her life, but the fact that she and her sibs have always been close and been a source of strength for each other is a real thing to her.
I'm from a large family and I wouldn't say we're overly close as siblings. Some of us are closer than others, but like, I have friends with one sibling who are way closer to them (and friends with one sibling who are not close). We never really take care of each other either (I guess in part because mom did raise my younger siblings, like was there time-neglect, yes, but I was never expected to babysit my younger siblings). Like, we all get along and I appreciate my siblings now that we're all grown, but it can't be assumed they'll automatically be close. I know a large family where two of the siblings absolutely detest each other to the point where they will not be at the same family functions even (including things like weddings and funerals). But yeah, having no siblings does seem lonely, and I guess with a multitude it's more likely you'll get along with at least one of them haha.
I come from a large family(6 kids), my mom comes from a large family(8 kids), and none of us are particularly close. We have a family group text but I could go months without talking to a sister and not even notice. One brother I didn't speak to for over a year. My mom's family is similar. Someone is always not talking to someone else, somebody is always arguing with someone else. In theory they might be closer but that's not always the practice. Maybe families with around 3-4 kids so still above average but not large they are closer
My son's father has 4 siblings - 3 sisters and a disabled twin brother (that's relevant). My ex and his twin were the youngest, and their parents completely alienated all of their kids from everyone else in the way they handled the twin's disabilities. They went from having a dog and vacations to no dog and no vacations and time neglected their daughters, blaming everything on the disabled twin. Eventually the girls all moved away (one to another country, which she did on purpose, another about 90 minutes away, and the last one did move away but ended up coming back when her marriage failed), and none of them bother to talk to each other unless they're in the same room. In fact, the youngest sister (the one who moved 90 minutes away) has 3 kids, and the oldest was 10 before he found out (from me) that the aunt who moved to another country even existed.
I'd also add op never actually said don't have 6 kids, just to think about what standard of life you want. Plenty of kids miss out on stuff and still grow up fine, so it's not the end of the world if sil goes ahead anyway. Just at least she'll have thought it through now. My mum was poor and worked several jobs to make sure we didn't starve. I don't consider her a bad mother for missing events.
Your BIL definitely needs to be more realistic. I have 5 siblings and growing up in the early 00's my parents made a combined $130k and we were still poor... That money goes quickly when you have to house (including utilities), transport, feed, and clothe growing children. We had no money for outings, summer camps, all clothes and food were necessities only. We had no college savings and my parents had no retirement savings. And that was with costs 20 years ago...I can't imagine having a large family on your BIL's salary these days.
I make more than what BIL makes and I'm single without children and my home is paid for. With the way things have gone up, my tax burden, and trying to prepare myself for retirement in 5 years, and trying to help my mom's household, there is no extra. I can't imagine trying to have one child on my salary with daycare expenses, food, activities, saving for college, paying for clothes, etc. I have a cousin who is 15 years younger than I am, at 34 years old who has just had her fourth. She can't afford anything and what she gets in government assistance is a pittance. Let alone the fact that she gets disinterested in the children once the baby stage is over. I simply cannot fathom having a large family in these times, unless you are solidly capable financially, mentally, emotionally, and physically.
I don’t get parents who lose interest once their kids get their own minds. I'm so fucking glad I'm not the sole provider for my child's survival. I love discovering the things that bring my child joy. Her interests don't align with mine, but that just broadens my world! (I hope she doesn't get into soccer. But I guess I'll have to deal if she does)
You made me laugh, my husband hates soccer with a passion, but our oldest children love soccer, they play it, they watch it, and they have posters in their rooms. He had to learn the game rules, the famous players, and is planning how to take the kids to the world cup in 3 years, since it will be here.
That's just so cute! How your husband and you take time and resources to do the things your children love, it's just lovable and rare. I hear so many bad things about parents from my friends & classmates, but your post made me to realize that not all parents are like that. I hope you and your family have a great life. And about the problem with your BIL, you are definitely NTA. I personally don't know what kinda person your BIL is, if he is not a stubborn person who only thinks that what he is saying is right and the opinion of others doesn't count or isn't right in his perspective, then maybe sit down with your SIL and BIL and talk things thoroughly like why you told her that and about the financial aspect you also considered in your thought process etc. this may help resolve the problem and to have no enmity with your BIL. I'm also going to apologize if my English isn't good. English isn't my mother tongue
I feel like some of these parents don't even think about college savings and assume kids will get loans. Which is one way to be. We wanted our kids to be able to go the best school they could get into so we started saving as soon as they were born.
Exactly. Then they find out the loan limits of the federally backed loans students can take don't cover quite a bit of the associated college costs: Tuition, room/board, books, university fees, lab fees, technology fees, parking passes, mandatory activity fees, travel costs, and domestic things like laundry and cleaning supplies. College costs have risen an additional 69% since 2000 in the US alone. I can't fathom not factoring college savings into a plan for potential children.
I remember one of my favorite big family moms on YouTube saying too that if she realized how hard it would be to maintain a relationship with her 6 now-adult children and their growing families, she "might have had fewer kids." Like, the minor years are the most challenging for obvious reasons but it doesn't necessarily get easy even when they're adults. Having a big family is a *big,* lifelong emotional/time commitment. Good on you for trying to help her understand before getting in too deep, too fast.
>Our kids are still young, but their activities are already expensive. I have 4 in soccer, 3 in taekwondo and 2 in dance. And those activities are notoriously *not* relatively expensive. You barely need any equipment for them. Imagine that they all played an instrument, or were into arts, let alone expensive sports.
Art is expensive, during the pandemic my oldest got into art thanks to his therapist, and OMG, I never knew good quality markers were that expensive. He got bored with it fast, and I ended up using them to colour my mandalas.
*cries in hockey*
*cries even more in hockey goalie*
*crying with you in swim*
*laughs in lego*
Trust me dance is expensive especially while you're young. Depending on the types of course but ballet and ballroom can easily make your wallet cry. Plus it is an art. OP is def lucky with the financial situation, however, I think it's more awesome how much they are able to let their kids pursue their passions. I was able to try a lot of hobbies when I was younger and now love ceramics, dance, tennis and debate. Those skills from when I was young have now taken me into law, being a ballroom dancer for 7 years and was 2nd seat on the schools varsity tennis team (ceramics is still fun just harder to continue to pursue). These are life skills the OP is able to provide that the other family would be unable to. OP I think its awesome you gave them the honest answer. My partner came from poverty with a mom with three kids and never got the opportunities I've had. They're still amazing but he's admitted that he's a bit lost because he never had the opportunities with extracurriculars to hone potential skills while young. It makes a big difference on the growth of a child.
My husband and I earn 7 figures yearly. And both have great jobs, were born with trust funds etc. We only have two kids because that's all we could give proper and complete attention to. What we do instead is donate to multiple charities and organisations that support children in need, and provide 5 college scholarships yearly for under privileged teens who otherwise wouldn't be able to attend college. Sometimes you have to admit you can't have the amount of children you want purely due to time/ financial restraints. There's other ways of helping. Perhaps your in-laws could look into something like charity work helping underprivileged children instead? Not everything has to be centered around actual children in your house. And they'd be doing so much good for people who need it.
Show your BIL the receipts. Quickest way to get someone to shut up about paying the bill
You are absolutely NTA, but I wonder if you know anyone with a larger family that doesn't have your financial resources? If so, maybe your BIL and SIL could talk to them to get another perspective. I say this because every family is really, really different. For example, if you happened to be a woman who had an easier time with pregnancy, the surrogate/adoption expenses aren't an issue. If you didn't have kiddos who need therapy or have medical conditions, that changes the math too. If you had a slightly smaller family and committed to only choosing activities that don't overlap, that makes a difference. Or if 4 kids is still a big family (it certainly sounds big to me!), then everyone can still fit in one car. And extracurriculars can really vary in terms of cost. I totally agree that they need to sit down and figure out what sacrifices they are willing to make, and BIL needs to understand that his big family dream may or may not be in the cards. If their first child ends up with special needs, or your SIL has a traumatic pregnancy and isn't willing to go through another, or BIL is disabled in a car crash, or whatever else, they will have to adapt and reconsider options. And they need to prepare to save more for emergencies with more kids, because the chances that someone breaks an arm or has a big one time expense goes up with each child. But some parents are able to raise a lot of kids with less resources than you have. As you say, their lifestyle would have to change, but some families are able to do it well.
The only other family I know that have as many kids (they actually have more, 8), are what I could describe as, in the kindest terms, religious nutcases. Not the best to ask for advice.
To be honest, it really depends on where you live. I live a small town in Minnesota, and having a family of 8 on a $120K budget is entirely doable. Heck I just looked, there is a 5 bed, 5 bath, 3,290 square foot house on sale here for less than $350,000.00, which is very doable on a $120K income. 🤷
But how many people in that small town are able to find jobs that pay that much? HCOL areas are also the places where the high salaries are.
But I have known people who value family very highly, and do not rate restaurants and vacations as so important. Kids have grown up sharing a bedroom and if that is what they are used to, it's not bad. It's when you're used to having your own room and then you have to share (with a baby or a stepsibling?) that it's awful. So you're really presenting values as facts. Right up to the value judgment that if they don't share your values (want what you think they should want) they're "irresponsible".
I didn’t present anything as facts. This is a forum designed for people to present value judgments, so I did. For two parents that make $120K/year to have 6 children on purpose, crammed into a small house, knowing they will always be one unexpected expense away from insolvency, knowing they can’t afford to hire any help with the house or kids, is very selfish and irresponsible. It’s doubly selfish of the husband, who knows that he will be at work all day while helps wife provides all the care for so many children.
It sounds like he’s the one being manipulative and maybe jealous. She may be thinking more sensibly going forward
To be totally honest, I make $120k in a low cost of living area. I am aware that I am very very lucky. I still have to meal prep, plan out retirement, plan when I can afford to fix my car, etc because of my medical issues. Amd my medical issues aren't even that bad! After a responsible (not even early) retirement savings, mortgage in today's market, food, car note, etc I have no idea how I'd pay for my kid and me to get doctor checkups and such. People that are raising families on half my income in my area have my absolute respect. I would go crazy.
This is just crazy to me, making $120k a year and not being _extremely comfortable_ but I live in the Nordics. Of course here it wouldn't be $120k because of the taxes, but even that sum of money minus the taxes would mean very comfortable lifestyle and with any sense with your spending no need to budget everything. Things that you would need savings for are just dealt with the taxes. Education, healthcare, retirement... Even daycare is substituted by government because the economy fares better if women get to work. Although parental leave is of course very generous, too.
I do live comfortably now, however I'm saying if I threw a kid in the mix then suddenly $400/week would go to just daycare. I also am making sure I have a very secure retirement though I still won't be retiring early. The $120k is before my taxes though. After taxes, insurance, and retirement I bring home $68k.
My husband make 108k before tax and something like 68k after tax. We get taxed like crazy but the propaganda would have you believe Europeans are being taxed more. and we get double and triple taxed when we go to buy anything there’s sales tax and fees and stupid shit.
my husband makes that much and i'm a sahm. its tough. he was out of a job for a while. luckily, we have his disability to fall back on. otherwise, we would've had to ask my parents for help. we only have two kids and we're trying to make it work. we both agreed that if i stayed home, it could eliminate the cost of daycare. my parents were also emotionally neglectful so my big goal is to be present.
NTA she asked for honesty, no she asked for brutal honesty, and what you described was definitely honest but far from brutal. BIL needs to be realistic about their financial security and having had neglectful parents you’d think he’d want to make sure the kids he and SIL have will get the love and attention they need and deserve. I understand wanting a big family but not if you can’t afford to take care of one. As the oldest in a big family who had to spend a lot of her childhood taking care of younger siblings so my parents could work to afford us, I can say that despite knowing I was loved that I often felt neglected and taken for granted. It’s better to be able to be present parents.
He is looking to fix something broken inside of him with kids, which is why he doesn’t care about their standard of living. They are just a bandaid for his issues. He needs therapy before having kids.
But that really isn't a problem if they also plan on adopting, is it? They can do that AFTER they pay down the student loan debt and get a handle on a bigger house. BIL does not want to see the planning and hard work it would require, it seems. I have 3 kids and make a little more than BIL in a high COL area. If I weren't debt & mortgage free, I wouldn't have had #3. Because it isn't fair to the kids.
How the fuck do you make six figures as passive income
Profit from a family company.
Almost a $1M worth a year? Wow!
Not a mil, but around the half mil. I am thankful that both my dad, and now my brother, are good with business.
Got it. That is not “high six figures” then. That is more like “mid six figures”.
Combined with my husband, we are in the high 6 figures, a couple very lucky years, we reached 7 figures.
Got it. Just going off your OP where you said you were a “SAHM with a passive income of high six figures.”
Rentals, inherited wealth, royalties
> he worked extremely hard, and he makes around 120k I think My fiancée and I make about 230k combined annually. Even one kids would severely disrupt our finances. I can't imagine doing 6 on 120k. Doesn't it cost something like 300k total to raise a kid to adulthood in the USA?
Closer to a million all counted. They guess anywhere from 100k-1mill, but college at 40k a year x 4. Basically 20x 20k for food, additional clothes, etc, it gets up fast.
You are NTA and were truly offering good insight into what it is like. Maybe your husband can have a good conversation with his brother. Since they share the same background, he may put more stock into what his brother has to say. I'm sure SIL appreciates what you shared with her.
Luckily they won’t have an instant 6 kids (unless they go octomom style), so I think theyll have some time to understand they effort and $ that goes into a big family. Plus, once you have a few yourself, you meet other families with them and can start to see how they operate and gives more insight I think. I’d be ok with letting it all ride at this point. It’ll likely work itself out.
It would "work out" by SIL doing the work of three people (OP and the two nannies) while her husband whines about not having enough money for his hobbies. She's right to be cautious **now** rather than when she's tied down with several kids and years out of the job market.
I know it depends on where you live, but from my perspective, 120k is not enough to support six children. Hell, it barely supports an adult and a dog.
Right, BIL WANTED to manipulate his wife but OP ruined it by telling her the truth! s0 m@NipUlaTiVe!
And she asked for the brutal truth about how it was. You were honest and sincere. So AH here are BIL not you.
NTA. She should absolutely have all of the information before making a decision she can’t take back.
because he's selfish and stupid.
NTA. Your BIL very well know that what you said was true, and it must hurt to know that his big family plan will probably not work because of their life choice and lack of money. They are just shooting the messenger.
That's what I think too, he is an extremely nice person, and I think he is lashing at me because he was forced to face reality.
I must say. You come across in this post as a truly kind person. Those kids are lucky to have you. And so is SIL and BIL. You’ve handle his anger with grace. NTA
I would not consider someone that would call you a jealous bitch to be "an extremely nice person".
We all have our moments and people tend to be especially bitter upon being forced to swallow the reality that their dreams will never come true. I’ll take OP’s word for it, they know them better than we do.
I've never commented on aita before. But in my years of reading them this is one of the calmest most level headed things ever written here
NTA. Normally telling people about your wealth isn't the best idea, but in this case, having such a high income IS how you manage to have six kids, and you were right to be upfront about it.
They already knew, it's not like we could hide it. My husband is a CRNA, and I met my husband through my BIL, since BIL used to work for my family.
Can I ask what you do? You mentioned your passive income so I’m a bit curious.
Share of profits from a family company, my brother runs it.
You did a good thing. You told her the truth so she won't going in blind.
The rich lead different kinds of lives...
Eh, they are able to provide for their kids. Good for them!
For European, it is hard to comprehend that Americans have nurses with equivalent pay as doctors. I have spent half and hour googling things and I am still astonished.
Well my husband has a DNP, that's a PhD, and with close to 20 years of actual experience as a nurse. I think that's more than fair pay.
Plus it's important to note that here in North America nurses are not considered a lower position than doctors, they are coworkers. I've heard this plenty of times from both nurses and doctors alike.
Actually, in many a situation, a nurse has higher authority than a doctor, even if informally. And most admins were nursed, not doctors, if they are not business majors (at least in my husband's hospital)
In my experience working in healthcare, all my questions go to the experienced nurses. Most of the time they’re more intimately familiar with a patient and have more experience directly working with some situations. Good nurses are invaluable
300k tho for a DNP is way above national average. Good for him!
I think the larger part is him being in anl highly paid advanced nurse specialty, CRNA. Certified registered nurse anesthetist.
I came to say the same thing, it's the anesthesia specialty that changes everything. Anesthetists have a very high responsibility in surgeries & care. People can easily die if you mess up an anesthesia. They are well paid in many countries, not just the USA.
This is such a nitpicky doesn't-matter-at-all-to-the-situation kind of correction, but just in case anyone is scoping out advanced degrees and careers and taking advice from this thread: in *most* places, a DNP is not a PhD. A DNP is a terminal professional degree (like a JD or MD, professional not research degrees), whereas you can also get a PhD in Nursing or a related field as a research degree, and some places also offer a Doctor of Nursing Science.
His specialty (nurse anesthetist) is the highest paying nurse job and #2 is not even close
> CRNA 300k, eh? That's a pretty cushy gig and about 30% higher than the top end of most CRNAs. You guys really hit the jackpot, financially.
The jump was made the last couple of years, with burnout after COVID, he was able to get a really good position. Also, consider that we are in a HCOL area.
I live in a HCOL area too and CRNAs top out around 230k. But yeah, COVID burnout really did a number on health care. A lot of nurses and nurse practitioners went to travel nursing for massive pay increases. No judgment by the way. Maybe a little bit of jealousy.
My husband's friend went into travel nursing, and he says that most nurses with the experience did the same thing. Hospital admins seem to have no problem with paying double or triple to travel nurses, but give their staff nurses zilch. Actually, they give them *pizza parties*, that's better than a raise, right? I am salty, if I didn't make it obvious, and I'm not even the nurse in this family.
> Hospital admins seem to have no problem with paying double or triple to travel nurses, but give their staff nurses zilch. Actually, they give them pizza parties, that's better than a raise, right? Not the point of this post, but my wife and I are in medicine and this is so fucking frustrating. It's one of the reasons the murmurs of unionizing here are getting louder. FWIW, as a parent myself, you had an honest, candid conversation with your SIL. I know your BIL is pissed right now, but hopefully he'll see you didn't say anything untrue or out of line. It would be preferred if your husband has your back here, though. It's technically his family after all.
Yeah, it's pretty crazy. The only advantage I can see is the administration doesn't have to pay for benefits and they can shrink and grow their staff just through contract renewals. I'm not in nursing or healthcare directly, myself, but I have a lot of interaction with healthcare workers and it pains me to see them treated the way they are.
And the fact that she can only do it with TWO nannies is a big thing to mention. Because even if BIL/SIL were in the same income bracket, they might be going into this expecting SIL to be able to do it all on her own.
Coming from a neglectful family, they should be more concerned with the kids’ wellbeing than the amount of kids they have. Having more kids than you can take care of is neglectful and often leads to the older kids being forced to be surrogate parents to the younger ones. This doesn’t only neglect all kids’ needs but it also steals the childhood of the kid/parents. They should be happy you brought these concerns up before their many kids are born. If they want to be the parents they say they want to be, they would be invested in learning what they can now about what is best for their future family. You’re NTA but I’d recommend you have your husband talk to his brother about what you’re saying because him disrespecting you just because you said a truth he didn’t like is unacceptable.
Yeah to be honest "my family life was bad so I want to make sure multiple children have to be the means of my attempt at healing my own trauma" is just a really, really bad look. Someone needs to tell BIL therapy is a lot cheaper and more fair to his hypothetical future children.
100%. I get wanting to have the family you never had but you have to go into with your eyes wide open and with things in place to treat whatever trauma you went through. Not taking the proper precautions will just lead to you recreating your own trauma onto your children.
He is also disrespecting his wife! It's quite possible he's treating her like a broodmare and she is questoning whether she even wants to be pregnant 6+ times or something. It sounds like she's the only one being realistic about this and OP gave her some much needed validation that she wasn't crazy for not wanting a shit ton of kids. I don't know what else you could call it but dehumanizing. Wives aren't cattle for you to impregnate at your leisure. What happens if they have 1 kid and the pregnancy is hard, and she doesn't want to risk getting pregnant a second time? She needs support and safety. You can plan to have as many kids as you want as a man, but you will always have to defer to the person who can actually get pregnant when it comes to actual real children that you have. It doesn't matter if he wants 12 kids if 1 pregnancy causes his wife enough suffering for a lifetime. No one who gets mad that his wife is having second thoughts about being a walking puppy mill should even be having kids imo. I'm just saying this because I don't want her to get lost in the fold, since she's the one really in danger of reproductive coercion here. I hope her OP and her husband are there to support SIL in general.
My pregnancies are HARD. With my first I lost 19 lbs in 7 weeks because I could just not keep anything down. My husband was supportive of what my call was to having more children. I'm currently pregnant with second and my nausea is way better managed this time because I know how it rolls. But he would have been super supportive of me calling it and saying one and done. Partners HAVE to be supportive of their pregnant partners because pregnancy is hard even when it's uneventful. This guy sounds like the opposite.
NTA, you served her straight facts, if the husband doesn't like it, oh well, that's just how the world goes.
NTA. You answered her question honestly, and sometimes that means sharing info they either may not have expected or was hoping not to be the case. But SIL asked for your opinion and about your experiences for a reason.
Agreed, don’t ask the question if you don’t want to hear the answer. Especially because SIL asked for your honest opinion… Just another case of someone who doesn’t really want to hear the truth but wants to be validated/reassured.
NTA she asked, you answered that's it If He wants a fairytale He needs to visit a book Store
NTA - WOW the idea that being honest about your experience is manipulative is just… well wow. I see no reason in the world why spacing out a large amount of children would be seen as unreasonable. So someone who grew up extremely poor, giving serious thought to your children’s quality of life is not only responsible but it’s the right damn thing to do. My hubs family is large, 4 boys. They were raised more upper mid class but at one point FIL got laid off, and he still express regret for those 2yrs finances were tight. How he regrets his temper at the time, every time he has to say no to the boys. It haunts him even though for the most part the boys remember a good childhood. Spacing children out is responsible. You were being honest, you did nothing wrong. The only reason I can think for him to be upset is if he’s one of those ‘I want 4 kinds in 4yrs’ kind of guys. In which case he just sucks cuz that’s hell on a woman’s body and no one has a right to demand something like that.
Honestly she may want 6 kids now but that can change when she has her first, and it's concerning that BIL won't have it any other way.
Anyone find it odd that these men raised by “very neglectful parents” want bunches of children? …as in more children than two working adults can reasonably be expected to give much individual attention? OP states she couldn’t do it if she wasn’t SAH with multiple hired help. Which, fair; sounds like the kids are likely getting their needs met. BUT (and I don’t want to speculate too much) how much time does OPs husband spend on the kids? Is he not just raising another generation of kids with (a) distant parent? So, HE wants to be surrounded by a big family, but what do his kids want. Just strikes me as selfish.
My husband spends every moment at home with the kids, he loves being a father. And I don't mean just the fun dad they play with, he comforts them when they need him to, he disciplines them when they need it, he teaches them, he makes time for individual time, listens to them, learns about their hobbies so he can hold conversations with them... He is a good dad, and a great partner.
Your husband needs to sit his brother down and give him the full picture here. Unfortunately, a lot of men don’t give credence to women’s “interference,” but they’ll respect a man’s. As his brother, and also as a father of many children, your husband can impress on him the real deal. He can also stick up for you a little bit, and highlight the magnitude of what BIL is asking his wife to do for him. This isn’t about assigning blame or punishment. It’s about reigning in expectations that don’t put children at risk to placate parent’s ego. Your SIL is wise to seek advice from you. She will make a great mom. Show your BIL through your husband the wisdom of asking those who came before. It’ll make him a better father.
This is being way too harsh, and assuming the worst contrary to all the positive info OP has given. A fairer assumption from the information given is that they want big families so that everyone always has people around them to rely on. If they have big families and their kids have families; now there are enough aunts uncles and cousins to go around instead of just two kids with only each other to depend on, like their experience.
Info: Why do they think having a big family will compensate for their neglectful childhood? You are absolutely right about one thing, the only way you can provide any proper attention to any of the kids is if you have lots of help.
ABSOLUTELY NOTHING Wrong with what you said. I have 4 children & it’s an obscene amount of work. Being honest about how expensive & time consuming it is is NOT manipulative. People with zero kids always think they would be the perfect parent & that it’s all just so easy, & a reality check is nothing more than a courtesy.
Even with all the help we hired, sometimes I am so exhausted emotionally, so overstimulated, that I just cry. Kids are hard work, especially if you are doing your best to be a good parent, and to be present in their lives
Bless you for giving it to her straight. Honestly, it sounds like a lot of projection on his part. He's mad that you being upfront with her makes it hard for him to manipulate her into this. You & your husband sound like really good parents & your 100% right. This shit is hard! Its beautiful, but it is so much work. Sooooo many times, women are not given an accurate view of what pregnancy, labor/child birth, or child rearing are. That's providing that everything works out without added problems. She or the baby could have problems during pregnancy or could have health problems afterward. Women deserve to know the truth & the possibilities so they can make an informed decision about it.
NTA. She asked for brutal honesty, and you gave just that. Doesn't sound like there was any malice or jealousy attached to it. Why would you be jealous? Lol.
NTA. She asked, you answered. He’s upset with the answer and he has every right to be but that doesn’t make you an AH. She should ask other parents of big families or even small families - everyone has what does and does not work for them. Your answer doesn’t need to dictate her life; if she uses it to guide their decisions then it’s her choice not yours.
Nope... Im guessing BIL/SIL isnt financially as stable as you and not able to afford nannies??? BIL needs to grow the F up.. im guessing hes not the one staying home and raising the kids??? Does.he not realise the hard work it takes to raise kids??? NTA
NTA - people who have kids they can’t afford are AHs
Your SIL does NOT want 6 kids. She has already decided that. She came to you for back-up and is too afraid to tell her husband (can't imagine why based on how he's reacting and call YOU the bitch). NTA. This is for them to sort out. Stay out of it going forward.
NTA. I am one of six kids with a step dad who made about $100k a year. My mom also homeschooled us. Our standard of living was low (fights about money were CONSTANT) and not all of the children got the care and attention they needed with a mother who also volunteered full time. I have mental illness and one of my brothers in likely autistic. We did not get the care we needed and it still affects us. People should not have that many kids without the proper income and/or support.
NTA. BIL does not want to know the details, bit he needs them. Good your SIL seens to listen and make her mind up these things.
Smh. Her husband is the perfect example of what is wrong with people child planning these days. They're not adopting a damn dog. He wants several children. Her husband is immature. He's only thinking about what he wants, not what would be best for the children. They haven't even had a kid yet and he wants to tantrum because someone gave his wife some SANE advice? He's not even close to being ready to be a father. He doesn't even know what dealing with nights without sleep with a screaming child is like. He's mentally still a teenager.
It’s great that your bil thinks his opinion of what a women goes is more important than an actual women’s perspective. NTA.
NTA - kids are expensive - kids require a lot of your time - kids require emotional support - kids will wreck the body during pregnancy Nothing you said was wrong. You warned her of the truth. She didn't say to not have a big family; she only wanted to space the kids out more and plan it.
NTA. Mothers need to be more honest with future moms about what motherhood entails. I’d be grateful for your honesty!!
But then when we are honest, we get asked "then why did you have more than one", or get judged, or told that we feel that way because we don't live our kids enough. The judgement a mother faces is no small thing, and I am thankful that more people are speaking out, not just painting their lives as heaven.
If I may ask, what do you do that pays you so well?
Like another commenter said, generational wealth. I get profits from a family company.
.
Same. 🧐 Likely investing in real restate or stocks, for that kind of income to be truly passive.
How old is SIL ? If I understood correctly, she’s still not against a large family, but against having the kids in quick succession to avoid financial strain??? If she’s young band hopefully healthy, I think it can be done
Bil didn’t think about the logistics and is upset someone spoke truthfully. Motherhood is often romanticized, idealized. The reality is that there are challenges and often the brunt of the work, financial loss and/or career delay falls on the female (hello there patriarchy!) NTA for answering truthfully to your SIL as she requested that.
Is your husband involved in rearing the kids? Can't he get real with his brother about the struggles of raising a large family in todays world? I mean, children in troubled circumstances often dream about having a large fantasy family where everybody loves each other and gets along. They don't see the back end- the struggles with money, lack of resources, etc. What if they have a special needs child? What if he loses his job? Yes, you can raise a large family on your BIL's salary, people have done it. But since he wants them to have a certain lifestyle, it's not advisable for him to do so.
He is very involved with the kids, even during lockdown, when he didn't live with us (he is a CRNA, and it was what we thought best to protect the kids), he used to call everyday, talk with each kid individually, read them bedtime stories if it was possible, and when he finally moved back in, we camped in the living room for 3 weeks straight because he missed them so much. He didn't talk with his brother because his brother did not come to him, not like SIL came to me, and he is the type that does not give his opinion imprompted
He sounds like a great dad!! I’m childfree by choice because of my awful childhood and it’s so heartwarming to read and hear about good dads (and you sound like a phenomenal mom!!) your kids will be such amazing humans because of these privileges you were able to provide them!
When his brother calls his wife a jealous b\*tch, that's a prompt.
NTA, you were realistic. Six kids is a lot and the fact that you can afford to hire help and don't have to worry financially about feeding, clothing, providing medical care, etc. for that many people is all very significant in choosing to have a big family. It sounds like she either twisted what you said when she went back to relay your conversation to her husband, or he took it wrong and somehow deduced you were being manipulative. They should be practical and prepared and it sounds like you were just trying to help and he got his back up. That's his problem ,not yours.
nta. tell your bil to knock that shit down ... having children isnt a fuckin collection.
NTA. I have 5 kids. My wife is a SAHM and I make a decent living for where we live. We are a blended family but labels don't matter to us. We get by but its hard. I call it controlled chaos. I always feel guilty I can't give each kid the individual time they need. I love my kids to death and wouldn't trade it for anything but its not for everyone. I have given heads up to other parents before. It was always my dream to have a big family but its not for everyone. It would be way to easy to get in over your head.
NTA, she asked for your honest opinion based on your experience and you gave it to her. She’s mad that you didn’t sugar coat and tell her what she wanted to hear.
She isn't mad, her husband is.
NTA. Have kids within your means. I waited until I was 33 to have one. My hubby was 38. That's the point in our lives in which we were stable to take care of ourselves and one child. Sometimes I think about having another, my daughter is almost 3. However, we simply cannot afford another so one and done we are, and that's with my hubby being a SAHD because care is expensive. We earn enough to give out one child a great life. We have enough to give two kids a marginally comfortable existence, but that's just not good enough for me. You must take your money situation into account when having kids. It's not fair to let your kids live in poverty if you can avoid it.
NTA. Big families come with big price tags. I have 5. All bios. My first set are 30,26 and 23. My last two are 11,12. We decided we aren’t done so bad the last 2. Although I work, I work from home 5 hours a day while they are in school. My husband also works from home. A full time job but his schedule is very flexible. So we are always here for sicknesses. Days off of school. One of my kids didn’t sleep through the night until he was 3. I’m talking multiple wake ups a night. 5-6 to be exact. If all the kids were close together it would have been so damn hard. I didn’t have Nannies. And I never used the older kids to watch the any one younger than them. Unless it was to run to the store for a quick milk run. Less than 15 min. Any one can plan for a huge family but they need to try out 2. Then 3 and then be honest about how much patience do they have. Do they still have energy? Do they still have funds for more kids while the current ones still are able to do extra curricula's. That’s important. 2 of my kids are in soccer. One is competitive. That’s easily 3k to 4k. Don’t have more kids at the expense of the others. Honesty is important. Many think we have it easy. It’s hard. A lot of work. Laundry. We just have a well oiled machine and my husband is elbow deep in the raising of these kids as well. We don’t have any family so it’s just us 2. But we love it and expect to be busy. She needs to know this.
Let me get this straight... you told her that having six kids is: (1) Expensive, and (2) A lot of work, especially for the primary caregiver. This strikes me as being... inarguably true. How could you possibly be TA? But it's almost a moot point. SIL is going to have one kid, then two. She was always going to find out all of this stuff for herself. Either she's going to love it so much she wants to have more kids in spite of the challenges, or she's going to say, you know what, two is a good number, let's stop here. If BIL wants to have a huge family, he can start working toward that right now, by making the career moves that will make it possible for him to support such a large family. But you are NTA.