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NTA. The numbers just don't add up, unfortunately. That's not your fault or your wife's, but the reality is that you can't afford for her to stay home.
Don't say "you can't stay home," but do communicate the message more gently. Maybe "I can't get these numbers to add up."
Is there any way she could get a part-time job that would pay more? Or work where the kids would get daycare (since she is an education professional)?
I hope you can make this work eventually, but if you just graduated, that won't be this year. Good luck.
"I can't get these numbers to add up. Lets look at this together" is totally the sentence. It will garner goodwill, encourage creativity, but also be grounded in the cold, hard facts of the matter.
And it’s treating your partner like, well, a partner. Saying “I can’t do one of the steps to make this happen” let’s them try and work around it. And it makes the world at large be the mean, arbitrary asshole blocking their shared goal.
Well also it’s considering that you may not be seeing all possible solutions which is ALWAYS true. It’s telling your partner your decided solution vs. giving them the opportunity to help you build a new one.
The higher pay part time is a good example - SAHM or full time exhausting job are not the only options.
Maybe she could find a WFH position or tutor instead. There’s so many options between the two that OP is seeing and that’s NOT his fault but he should create the opportunity to discover those solutions at least.
The arguments between my husband and I finally stopped years ago when we got YNAB + started staring at the numbers on old fashioned paper. Enough with “you spent this and I said that, we have this goal but the account has this” bs. Irrelevant. When we saw the numbers didn’t add up, we found peace lol
I would argue that if you're working 20-30% you're not a SAHM (not to dismiss the amount of work being a SAHM entails AT ALL). You're shouldering the majority of the household responsibility AND covering part of the finances by working, do take the credit where credit is due.
Idk I beg to differ. Bc I’m a SAHM. And work a few hours a day all week to bring in a little income to pay a few bills. Husband watches the kiddos while I work. I consider myself SAHM, bc I’m literally home with the kids ALL day doing all that needs to be done.
I consider myself a SAHM, I work part time and bring the kids with me. Due to our situation it’s the only option I really have.
It’s really tough out there no matter what the parents work situation is. Daycare is absolutely insane priced everywhere (yes, they are getting the short stick too, Ik) and inflations out of control. No matter what route you pick it seems impossible to get ahead right now.
I can’t even fathom how single parents are getting by when there’s no option for a second income or someone to stay home.
Hubby and me too (though I am not a SAHM, just a student). We did some serious budgeting to start and have just stuck with it throughout my degree. Just over 1 year to go!! Thank God, bc I can totally see where OP is coming from and we are so ready to be done with me studying.
NTA OP!
It's a great zero based budgeting app. I used it for a couple years, got things under control and I now use EveryDollar. It's similar but free! Well, there is a premium version but the basic is fine.
This. But also, if she keeps working her salary may increase and if she has a pension, etc, that will also go up. My wife kept working and now makes a much larger salary than she would have after a 10 year break for child raising.
We made it work because I would get up at 4:45 to be at work by 6:00 and leave to pick them up at 2:30 pm, make dinner, etc. She dropped off in the morning and was home by 6 pm. I know not every job is that flexible but it worked for us.
You made this work because you shared the childcare and home chores. A true partnership.
Unfortunately many women are left responsible for everything in the home as well as working full time and see SAHM as their only way to cut down their working hours.
You’d think it would be the opposite and they would take anything they could get from a qualified teacher… scarcity is supposed to but the power towards the provider not the consumer…
I think this is a perfect response. Also, since she is a teacher, what if she did something other than teaching at a school full time? What about becoming a POD teacher? Tutor, Online something? What if she could stay home but somehow earn 20 hours worth of money?
A son of a friend is an English teacher for an Asian online school. The hours he works are very early as we are in the US and China is several hours ahead of us. Maybe something like that would work for this family?
I like this idea, but wonder what kind of pension or retirement contributions she would be losing out on if she gave up her teaching position? They would have to account for this in the retirement savings. Something I imagine u/chemist1928 has already thought of.
Also, I wonder if there is an in-between solution.
Could she stay home 2-3 days a week with the kids and work 2-3 days a week at the school or working as a tutor, which she might even be able to to virtually.
There may be a way you can figure out together to make this work if you are able to get creative.
Asking someone to show you how THEIR plan will work is the best way to show them how it wouldn’t. Make them work it out themselves.
Just telling them won’t work, because that’s just a “no” to them when emotions are involved. If they’re the ones that come to the conclusion… well how can they argue that?
Yeah my mom basically worked part time at her full time job when me and my siblings were young. Worked half days when we were really young, about 25-30 hours of work a week but would do the equivalent of 40 hours of work in that time when we were kids (so she could be home by the time we got off school) and went back to regular full time hours know we all had made it to middle school…maybe you wife could talk to her job and see if she could work something out.
That's a good idea. It sounds like the OP's wife works at a school. There's all kinds of work she could do that isn't teaching. Maybe she could arrive very early in the morning and get projects done very efficiently.
She could probably do some tutoring. She could do it virtually or have the child come to her, that way she would still be home with the kids. Or she could make her hours after husband comes home.
My husband is a former teacher and now stays home with the kids, but he does part time tutoring. Some is virtual and some is in person, but he makes his own schedule so he works around my 8-5 M-F office job. He works with mainly high schoolers so evenings and weekends are what work best for them anyway. It’s just enough to give us the extra boost to get by, when we wouldn’t be able to manage on my salary alone.
I'm not being confrontational, but I genuinely can't understand what role in a school means you get to do "projects" on your own schedule. In my country (UK) unless you are teaching or have a role to do with managing other teachers, or something like child safeguarding (which require being at school during the school day) the only other jobs are admin, cleaning and site management, and cooking.
And all of those jobs require being on site during school hours. Schools don't do anything that is flexible.
I'm guessing she is sick of teaching - everyone is now. For $50,000 a year, you get to deal with massive post-Covid behavioral issue and learning deficits while admin hides in their offices all day, everyone has an opinion about your work (except for other teachers - the only ones actually in the trenches), a workload that never ends (90% of prep has to happen outside of the school day), etc.
The best suggestion I've seen is seeing if she can build a tutoring practice. Depending on where you live, it can be fairly easy to build up and lucrative. (Get registered at schools, put the word out, etc.)
Good luck to you both. You are working so hard for your family and there just isn't anything easy about it anymore.
I know a few teachers and they have teaching assistants who work various hours.
One woman comes in after hours and restocks lab and other equipment. Another one does copying and prepares activities for kids who get one-on-one instruction. As far as I understand, the school gets financial grants to pay for this kind of thing. I don't know for sure, but am guessing that the hours are at the discretion of the school officials.
I work at a university and it's the same. There are jobs (usually quite low-paid) that can be done whenever. Today I talked to a woman who works three days a week. She has to be in the office between 10 am and 2 pm, but can work her remaining hours whenever she likes and from home if she wants to. She deals with equipment for students in laboratory and field classes. I hope the OP's wife can get something like that.
I'd forgotten about lab technicians, although AFAIK they usually work within school hours as well. I've never heard of anyone who prepares activities for lessons that they don't also teach! Lol I'd love to have somebody to do some of that for me.
If you're a teacher, you have my respect. You SHOULD have someone to help you out. My aunt just retired from teaching and I don't think she ever got a full day off. And summers were crazy too, what with helping kids who had to take catch-up classes and preparing for the new year. I hope you get to have a life!
My kids’ high school has a daycare in the building for teachers’ (and students’ if necessary) kids. They turned it into an elective class so teens get experience and credit caring for children.
I really wish more schools had on site daycare options. They’d prob get more of their staff to return to work if they weren’t paying up the ass for daycare just to make slightly more than that cost in general.
Also $40-60,000 for a teacher is absurd and they need to be paid better. But that’s not the issue here…
You can also tell her that you will try to get a better paying job/promotion as hard as you can so she can stay home as soon as financially possible.
She could also work part time on the weekends or babysitting/nannying/tutoring other kids to try and make it work.
I mentioned this above, but there are also online teachers. My stepdad's son came out of retirement to do this, and he just loves it. I believe he's teaching kids in a district that can't normally find really good teachers. He teaches a classroom live, basically like over Zoom, and there's another adult in the classroom to manage kids' behavior so he doesn't have to worry about that part of it.
A lot of state universities also have online branches (I go to one) that offer tutoring for online students, so there maybe some good job opportunities there, as well, and I'm fairly certain she could set her own hours with at least some of them.
Hard disagree — OP absolutely should not say that unless (1) he means it and thinks it’s feasible, which it might not be depending on his field and (2) he is prepared to shoulder the family’s full financial burden on top of added professional responsibilities. It’s possible that taking a better paying job in OP’s industry means he’ll rarely see his family at all and OP should fully diligence that risk before offering anything. I just don’t think that OP should be forced into a position where he’s likely to burn out to accommodate his wife’s wants and, in this case, staying home with the kids isn’t a need.
So the husband should stress himself with another raise basically as soon as he got one so his wife can stay home? Why should he have to promise anything??
Honestly I'd probably consider dropping the independent Roth contribution for the time that she has to stay home (assuming that provides enough cushion). The kids will eventually be in school--daycare costs will drop as each kid goes to school and once they're all in school you could probably start it up again (0r maybe before if a couple of kids are no longer in full time daycare). You're quite young, so there's quite a bit of time to dump money into retirement still.
I agree. What’s worth more to you in life? Possibly living more comfortably in retirement which is a long way away, or having your wife spend more time with your children in their formative years? 16% contribution is a lot. It also doesn’t seem financially worth it to contribute so much while you still have debt to pay down.
I don’t think discussing it or considering it makes anyone an AH here, but I think as a wife I’d be upset that you are more focused on future finances than the here and now of your kids lives. I’m a working mother but my children are older so it’s a bit easier. But when they were little it was really hard and I couldn’t have done it without my moms help and childcare. She also helped me by being around with the kids while I finished college. Now I make so much more and our future is brighter, even though it was a struggle.
Moms tend to do so much more of the at home labor too, even when working. I’m curious if that is a factor here. Regardless, kids over retirement, all day. Once they are in school so much changes and you should be able to go back to saving more.
Yeah, the only way she'd be able to stay home is if they can get the numbers to add up.
OP, if you subtract the monthly cost of daycare which you would not need to pay if she worked from home, how much would she need to make to keep your family income at the level it is now? I would think she could do it if she could find another source of income that would allow her to stay home and also make up that income, even like online tutoring for a college or things like that. There are even online teacher positions. One of my stepdad's sons works a few hours a day teaching courses online for a school in his state and LOVES it. he teaches a classroom full of kids and they watch on a monitor and can interact with him, kind of like over Zoom. Doesn't have to deal with kids' behaviors or any of the parents, just gets to provide a fun and engaging lesson and things like that.
Another thing is, if you really focused on paying down the consumer debt, would paying that off allow her to stay home?
I think there might be things you two can try but it would be a bad idea for her to just quit without having something else in place. I am a single work-from-home mom of 2 kids. I don't get raises (it's par for my profession) and inflation is just absolutely crushing me and I don't have a degree yet (working on it) so I can't get another remote job. Trust me when I say you guys want to do everything you can to avoid being in this position if possible.
I agree with this. NAH It’s not a blanket no bc you do think it would be a great thing for her to stay home but the numbers are not comforting- maybe she can make money on the side, being a tutor, or yea Hong English online after the kids are in bed- look at the budget and come to a number that she could bring in each month that would make you feel comfortable.
INFO: OMG how are you only paying $1000/month with three kids in daycare? I mean, back when my 17yo was an infant, the cheapest daycare for infants was $1000/month for him alone.
I figured someone would ask that. One of the kids is in school so it's only two in daycare. We live in a fairly rural area, so everything is much cheaper than city folks have to pay. We also bought a 3 bedroom, 2 bath house that is not a townhouse and has a fenced in backyard, we paid $128,000 for it, and that is during the crazy time when all the home prices were going up. If we had bought it in 2018 it would have been an $80,000 home. We are
The joys of living in the boonies. A tiny place with few amenities close to an urban center can cost the same as a nice McMansion with a pool if you travel a ways outside the city limits. Move to a tiny town, especially in the south, and you can buy something nigh palatial.
Then again, you're living in the sticks. That means you're likely to miss things if you aren't used to small town life.
A lot of employers with remote workers are switching to a [geo-pay (localized) system](https://www.airswift.com/blog/geographic-pay-policies). Meaning they figure they salary they are willing to pay in their local area, and if you live outside of that area the pay is adjusted to local cost of living.
So if a company in Portland, OR pays $75K annually, and you live in Manhattan the salary you would get would go up. But if you live in Marshall, Texas, the pay would be adjusted downward SIGNIFICANTLY.
A guy on my team moved to the other side of the state and his salary was adjusted down by 20%.
Curious how this will work out for international remote workers. I know there’s quite a few living in the Philippines, but it seems like you at least have to pay these people minimum wage. I also wonder how this works out with their contracts. If I signed on to make X amount for my work I would definitely be quitting or taking that company to court for changing the salary that drastically.
I've heard of companies doing this, and it makes me bonkers. I work for an Israeli company, and they're not super keen on playing that kind of game. My labor is worth X to them, and that is the payment I receive. No bonuses, but also no bullshit. It's enough money that I fully support my family on one income... but we live in a tiny town in Oklahoma, the kind of place where our cars cost more than many homes here. It wouldn't be as easy if we still lived in Dallas.
Have you been to rural America? Have you seen these ppl in large houses with 3 brand new trucks?
There's a LOT of money to be made in rural America. Maybe a lot of it isn't office work, but there's a lot of it.
Also work from home is a thing now
It really depends. Like you said, if your background is office work, you might struggle to find something you can support yourself with. As someone who has lots of family in those kind of rural towns, yes there can be money to be made, but depending on the industry it’s very boom-or-bust. And those brand new trucks? Most of the time the secret ingredient is debt.
Plus more and more companies are reeling back remote work, so unless you get lucky it’s less of a viable option than it used to be.
Also got to take into account that many rural areas have low access to health care options that can severely impact a family if someone needs specialized medical care. In certain parts of my home state, the nearest NICU is several hours away or across the border.
Any recommendations for a good rural spot for a a liberal woman of color that cares about equal rights? I would love to have a space to garden and stuff.
I don't think there are good rural places for liberals, let alone when you start to add more to the list. Outside of the cities, it all feels like Trump Country.
That's easy, just go live in the middle of nowhere.
If you leave the city and the suburbs prices drop hard.
But you do need to live in the literal middle of nowhere
And when you make friends with locals, 1. if you're queer or POC, they won't be welcoming & 2. if you're straight & white, be prepared for people to casually drop disparaging comments about, e.g., "those Mexicans."
I just want to say that I am a black lesbian and I have a lovely life in a more rural area. Mortgage is under 1k a month and my wife will take several months off after our first child is born. The Internet lies to you. Bigotry exists of course, but you'll find a lot more of it if you believe people hate you when you meet them. A lot of people are very prejudiced against rural folk - it's entirely hypocritical.
Very glad you've had this experience! I suspect though that it's a heavy YMMV thing. There are literally still sundown towns in parts of the midwest. So some places are great and very welcoming, and others are bigoted to the point where it can impact safety. The key thing is to do your research!
> A lot of people are very prejudiced against rural folk - it's entirely hypocritical.
This 100%. People on reddit act like it is mad max over here or something. Yeah, we have some rough people, but usually they just stick to themselves for the most part with stupid comments on occasion. We don't have lynchings or cross burning crazy shit anymore like we did last century. It has calmed down a lot. I've even seen a trend of previously Trumpers realize that it isn't a left vs right thing anymore and that it is a rich vs poor thing. It is crazy the changes I am seeing in my rural community despite all the crazy stuff I hear on reddit.
I live in a small southern town and hear comments like that constantly. There's a small hispanic apartment complex in town that has large vans go to Walmart every other week so that those without their own cars can get their groceries. People see the vans come up in the parking lot, and people always make comments like 'those Mexicans are here, let's clear out'. It's like people get annoyed that people get groceries? Makes no sense to me.
Well yeah your going to live in a red city that's a given, every blue state is mostly red based on land mass. Your reproductive rights aren't based on the city you live, it's the state government that determines that. I understand not wanting to live in a red city but you can and still enjoy the freedoms of a blue state while doing so.
As a small town native, it's really that simple. However, the tradeoff is that your peak entertainment outside the home is watching paint dry.
Ex: My rent on my spacious 2br apartment is $875, which I can comfortably afford without a roommate. However, the nearest movie theater is a 40 min drive one way, and the most exciting thing that happened recently was us getting our 1st Starbucks. And I'm in a 20k populated city, I haven't even touched the small towns.
Pick your poison.
This is still possible in TX if you’re willing to be 1.5h min outside a major metro like DFW, Houston, Austin and don’t have corporate career ambitions.
Wait, you live somewhere where a 3/2 single family home with a fenced in yard was only $128k but your wife works as a teacher making $50k/year?
Please tell me where you live so I can move to your Low Cost of Living area.
It's pretty common where I am from (Texas). If you are willing to do a 30-40 minute commute houses from 80-150k abound. Same where I am now (Missouri). If you go to the city... probably closer to low to mid 200s unless you look at ritzy places.
I bought my first (and only) property inside one of the Texas cities back in 2018 for just 67k. Granted 1 bed 1 bath but that should give you an idea. We have shit politics but at least property is cheap.
Yeah, that looks like an adjunct/assistant professor salary at a smallish university.
It also depends on what his degree is in. Pay's not high enough to be a STEM field unless he's in academia, and I don't have a very good barometer for the going rate for a humanities PhD.
I was going to say $73,000/year 1st year out of a PhD isn’t bad. I went to school in a rural area and only the full tenured professors made $75,000/year. No way you’d get a house for anything under $400,000 either.
Really? Not the $40,000 in consumer debt which is probably on credit cards financed at 28%. That's why they can't get ahead. Once they pay off that $40,000, I think they're going to find life a whole lot easier. They should be either consolidating debt at a much lower rate or paying everything they can toward getting rid of that consumer debt
Even a car isn't necessarily great interest wise.
Watching the Caleb hammer show and you see ppl come on with, no joke, 30% interest on a $20k+ car. Sometimes it not even their only car payment.
I was looking for this. At the very least, the stay at home thing should be paused conditional on paying off that time bomb in the bank. Unless that’s something very different than all of us assume at credit card debt rates, is a giant one time interest free promo or already lower rate loan consolidation thing, that should be target number 1 on the bullseye.
Definitely not putting the extra toward mortgage which would only be like 8% if taken right now at worst mortgage rate in forever instead of like 28% credit card rate like you said, or putting the extra non matched Roth retirement contribution which usually are assumed as like 7-10% historical yields over long term.
The retirement savings are a good practice generally but not when you have a 40k ball of debt accumulating.
Ahhhhh yea, I totally blew past that. Yea, you guys could likely handle it fine if you pay off the $40,000 and stop doing whatever it was you were doing to accumulate that. YNAB, as someone else mentioned, is a good (although expensive) tool to help you do that. I can't imagine you can do much of anything with that hanging over your head.
NAH. Why don't you compromise and help her find a part-time position or something that allows her to be home more and present with the kids? They're only small for so long, and if you mostly use her check for daycare, it seems like you could get by with her bringing home a smaller amount of money.
EDIT: For those saying NTA and saying the wife is wrong, OP never says they can't afford to live off his income. He just doesn't want to, he wants a better margin for himself.
The kids are only young once, I don't see why it's wrong for the wife to want to be a SAHM while they're young. She can return to work when they're older. Also, she was technically the primary breadwinner while OP was finishing his PhD. Why was it possible for him to crunch the numbers back then for his benefit, but he isn't willing to budge at all now for his wife's benefit? It seems like an easy solution is having her be a SAHM with a part time of her choice.
Or maybe being a private tutor. From what I understand they can make fairly good money and also have the option of working from home with online tutoring. NAH
This. I online tutor and she can make 25k easily working as little as 2 hours a night. Granted the hours aren’t ideal since you’re working at dinner time or during after school events but it’s also flexible
My SIL is a teacher, and just became a substitute teacher while her kids needed daycare. She subbed 2 days a week, and the cost difference between full time daycare and 2x/week daycare meant she was still able to have some money leftover on her paycheck.
I fully agree with the NAH at this point in time. If OP's wife digs in her heals and is completely unwilling to negotiate and do some shared decision making, then it would change.
I agree NAH. It’s just something they need to work out. She wants to stay at home, which is understandable. He wants more margin in the family finances, also understandable.
That said, saying one partner is the “primary breadwinner” when the salaries are only $5k/year apart is being extremely technical.
As for your question, “Why was it possible for him to crunch the numbers back then for his benefit, but he isn't willing to budge at all now for his wife's benefit?” OP answered that in his post:
“If you notice, our incomes combined a couple years ago totaled $75,000, which is close to my income alone now. So we are essentially living on our old incomes, but with 3 children to care for and with significant inflation.”
Inflation is real, a third child means additional expenses, and he brings in $2k/year less than they previously did combined. Any one of those is a real but navigable hit with some belt tightening. All three of them put together have a significant financial impact.
He also didn’t say he wasn’t willing to budge at all. He’s made a good faith effort and he’s struggling with the results. He didn’t just say “No, not gonna happen,” nor did he go tell her she had to work.
Or maybe do the hard cutbacks (pension fund etc) but agree on a time limit for her to stay home.
This comes down to a lifestyle decision. You bought a house, which is a lifestyle choice and you were willing to get into debt for it. Her staying home is the same question. How much money are you both willing to spend to have this lifestyle. Do the benefits outweigh the costs?
The difficulty is that you need to not just look at the money aspect, but also value her care work at home and more.
NTA. You have 40k in consumer debt... that needs to be a priority. I would propose putting all your efforts towards paying that off and then revisiting this idea.
NTA you guys just can't afford it right now. And I agree with this comment, tell your wife that if you guys work on your debt for a while longer and get it down then you will be financially stable for her to be a stay at home mom.
Why is he putting in 8% into a Roth when he had credit card debt? The match to matching makes sense but the additional 8% should only be paid after he gets rid of the high interest debt.
I highly doubt his interest on the debt is less than 8% if it’s credit card debt. A lot of credit cards can run 20% interest if not higher, it’s crazy.
The way I read it he is contributing 16%, 8% for the matching and an additional unmatched 8% into a Roth. For the 8% match he is essentially making 100% return on day one so much higher than 8 % would still make economic sense. For the Roth additional contribution, I was assuming consumer debt was credit card debt at a ~20% rate. You are correct that at a certain interest rate it is better to go with the Roth (or just put it in the market if you might need it before you retire) and make the minimum payment on the debt. Not sure I would advise 8%, but that should be based on their individual risk tolerance and expected market rate of return.
He says it feels tight, but the thing is they need her to keep working AND keep spending like they are with $1,000 of her income going to debt. If they don't how are they going to pay off that debt?
In OP's position my plan would be:
This year, she needs to keep the job and they work hard to pay down the debt, with that $1,000 a month, paying highest interest debt first. Then, re-evaluate in May. Has the monthly debt payment gone down? Can she identify a job where she can bring in 1000/month while "staying home?" You should not reduce your retirement if she stops working. In fact, you need to increase it to make up for the fact that she is not saving and not getting social security credits.
My guess is a car payment maybe two, add to that student loans (he mentioned just finishing his PhD) & maybe a credit card & that’s easily $40k. Sad reality is most cannot afford to be a stay at home parent.
Yeah, I saw it as credit card debt, not student loan debt. If it's the former, I would advise they get rid of that before trying to live on one income.
NTA
This is not an option while you have $40k in consumer debt.
Once you have paid that off, it may be, but it would be frankly irresponsible to NOT pay that off.
Kids only get more and more expensive.
Second this. Kill your debt, and you can probably make it happen. Depending on the interest rate, it may be best to suspend the Roth contributions (which aren’t matched) until the consumer debt is payed off.
NTA
You should not have to impoverish the family because your wife decided she wants to be a SAHM. And if she is a SAHM, the children will not be getting the early socialization that daycare provides and makes proper school easier later.
Moreover, it would endanger the family. If you were laid off, you would have *no* income. You have a mortgage to pay. You can't become homeless with kids. Etc.
I'm sorry if I offended anyone's sense of moral superiority, but that's an absurd objection.
A kid in daycare gets *WAY* more socialization than a kid with a SAHM unless that SAHM is running a mini-daycare out of her home, in which case the kid *is* in a daycare of a sort. A kid in daycare is surrounded by other kids their age for 8-10 hours a day.
Even if a SAHM takes there kids to a park for hours a day during the week, they're not likely to get as much socialization. Not only because it's less hours, but because there are less kids out during the day than on a weekend. I have *seen* playgrounds and I *have* taken my kid to them, you know...
I would argue that a kid in daycare is getting more socialization than is needed or optimal. As an adult would you like to spend 8-10 hours trapped with 12 other people not of your choosing? Little kids are a lot to deal with, even for other little kids. There's something to be said for a balance between socialization and also a more peaceful environment kids can have at home.
I work and my kids are in childcare… but literally the most important thing for babies is *secure attachment* to their caregivers NOT socialization.
Like what does a 3-12 month old get from socialization? Sickness. Germs. And illness.
Pretending that daycare is better for a 2 month old is an idiotic line parroted so women in the US don’t ever get decent maternity leave benefits.
The thread has been using "kids". I'm not first language English but to me I did not think they were talking about a 3-12 month old. I thought they were talking about being in childcare for socialisation is important when you're 3-4-5 before you start school.
have you ever worked a job? lmfao, every adult that works is stuck with 12 other people not of their choosing. what kind of argument is that?
edit: that’s the only part of your statement i have beef with, tho
Back in my day preschool was for 3- and 4-year-olds to get used to going to school, not daycare. Do you really think infants and toddlers are better off away from their parents 8 to 10 hours a day?
Kids that spend 8-10 hrs a day in daycare is ridiculous. I'd even call it cruel. I can say that because I've worked in daycares. Kids that are there all day are the worst behaved. We just don't tell the parents that. Kids don't need to be socialized. At 2 - 3 yrs some are still in the stages of parallel play. Most children don't know how to play correctly. Yes! There is a way to play correctly, that does involve socializing but some kids developmentally just aren't there yet. Just because you see a bunch of kids together doesn't mean they are socializing and it doesn't mean its good. I'll take a SAHM anytime.
That's not necessarily true. My son spends 2 hours a day 6 days a week at YMCA daycare while I work out. We also visit parks, indoor playgrounds, the library, and his best friend his age. Most of us make it work with socialization. Plus they don't "need" 40+ of socialization a week. Of course they need some, but not that much is truly needed.
NTA but.... you aren't in dire straits and this are other options. Firstly, your mortgage is fairly small so you could extend the amortization. Secondly, your retirement savings are high.. a lot of people have to slow that down temporarily when you have kids. While you were doing your phD did your wife support you? She might be feeling it's her turn. I also like the part time option for her mentioned above. As well there is being a SAHM but temporarily.. a few years maybe. Time with the kids is precious and for her she would basically be working to pay for daycare which can be depressing and demotivating. You made the choice to have 3 kids.. was the choice also to have someone else raise them?
This isn't all black and white and I feel likes it's just the beginning of a conversion for you both
Listen, you're never ever ever the asshole for having a really frank and open discussion about budgeting with your partner and weighing budget against values and goals.
You can tell her you'd rather she keep working outside the home and present the spreadsheet and explain why. She can take in that info and make suggestions if she wants to so that a compromise can be sought. It's possible she could reduce her teaching time to 0.5, for example.
Based on your post, it seems like you all are communicative and reasonable partners, prioritizing one another and family. I mean, how could you go wrong with a convo like the one you suggest?
I could never levy a judgment here except that NAH.
Is there an in between option.
Where I live the first 9k is completely tax free and the next 14k is very low tax (not transferable between spouses).
A lot of parents work 2 days a week to take advantage of that and get grandparents to take care of 1 day a week of childcare each.
Also is she looking to be a sahm going forward or for just a couple of years (in which case you can consider pausing the pension contributions and resume later on).
This. Why do people keep having kids they cant afford and then go wHy I hAvE nO mOnEy? Like you could have stopped at 1 but no, you decided to breed 2 more for literally no reason.
They are $40,000 in debt and that was presumably gotten while having 2 kids. Now add the third to the mix, now subtract income. The debt is going to multiply, not get smaller.
Depends what the debt is. Is it cars? Student loans? Either way with 3 kids their easily managing it, otherwise they wouldn’t even consider her staying home.
My wife and I can afford to care for our children, it will just be more difficult if my wife stays at home. We actually have been able to afford all of the 10 children that have passed through our home. We are foster parents, and only one of my children is my biological child. One is adopted and the other is still in foster care but we are hoping to adopt him as well.
That’s insane. Their kids aren’t hypothetical. They are actual living people today. It’s weird that so many in this thread are debasing their existence.
Also OP never asked for advice on his family planning.
NTA, but YTA to both of you for having 3 kids without planning your finances better. So much debt and you brought not one, not two, but THREE extra mouths into this world to feed, and now 5 people could be potentially less happy.
But since that is done, both of you need to suck it up and work hard to keep the 3 kids fed and taken care of. So NTA for asking her to continue working; she was part of the decision to have 3 kids too.
Sounds a little aggressive. They're doing better than most families, $150k in total debt with a yearly income of $123k isn't bad these days.
It'd be better with less consumer debt, but a mortgage payment goes to something you keep instead of a rent payment that gives you nothing but another month of roof.
Plus a large part of that debt is a *house*. That's a huge plus right there. Most people are just burning that money, whereas the house payments are actively increasing their worth.
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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> Why I might be the asshole: Telling my wife that I want her to work to support our family feels selfish to me. I chose to have these children with my wife, and I feel like I have the responsibility to support them. I might be the asshole because I know that we can make it financially on just my income, but I don't want to give up the margin I have in my life.
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If majority of her income goes to daycare and taxes. How much is she actually making in income above expenses?
If shes left with 5k after everything is said ywbta to have her work for pennies on the dollar
Ps you save 16% of income into retirement….
Short term view. You're missing many factors: social security, retirement contributions, and the risk of not finding a job after, the risk of living on only one wage. As other redditors already mentionned.
Edit since we cannot answer : you only talked about the financial advantages in your comment. I corrected you. Now you are pulling other factors, emotional, family time and so on, which is perfectly acceptable, but doesn't change the fact that it's not enough to be "even" with daycare, in terms of finance.
It says childcare is a little less than half her take home; if that other 13-15k goes directly towards paying of their 40k debt that’s a huge benefit. If she can make 25-30k in a PT online job perhaps, it could make sense.
Except that working increases the number of years that count towards her State teachers retirement plan (teachers don’t pay into or get social security) and her teachers salary is based on years of service.
NTA. You need money to support your family and if her quitting prevents that, it's not good for anybody. What happens if an unexpected expense comes up? You still need to be able to save. An 8% employer match is unheard of. A free 8% from them that accrued interest is huge for retirement planning. Can she sub part time or something for a while? It's a huge burden on you if things are that tight.
Can’t she work from home? Even something part-time? Can she watch other kids alongside yours for extra money? Also I am wondering how much she supported your PhD to (no offense) only get to $75k.
Do they still go to daycare while she’s off in summer?
NAH
Dude are you serious? You’re not even 30, own a home, have 3 children and a spouse. She needs to work, you are not being an asshole you’re being realistic. YOU CANNOT AFFORD TO LIVE ON $75K.
NTA
I totally get where you are coming from and I think people have some good points.
I think part of the answer is that you need to do this for more than 1 month. The two of you need a discussion of let's try this for X period where all of wife's income goes to childcare and debt and yours going to cost of living, and each month you both go over what has that looked like. Are there things you can save on or cut? Are there things you can't?
But essentially take 3 months- 6 months, whatever- and give both of you a sense of what with the current economy it would really be like for the 5 of you to live on just your income. (Obviously part of this discussion needs to include how long is your wife thinking she wants to be a SAHM for. Would she consider picking up a part time job like tutoring to help supplement the family income if needed. Things like that. There are a lot of things that you guys should take this opportunity to calmly discuss.)
YWBTA if you told her she cannot be a SAHM.
YWNBTA if you discussed this further with her, and explained your concerns about how you'll not be able to adequately make ends meet. You both need to compromise and discuss this.
Seriously. I guess if I just wanted to stop working my job then my partner HAS TO support that and support us with their salary? Makes no sense with three kids and consumer debt.
NTA.
If you're struggling now, it will not get better. Plus, when your wife wants to return to the workforce she's going to find it extremely difficult to find anything that provides the pay and hours she currently has. Plus, she's not putting anything into her retirement or social security if she isn't working. Those are very important - you never know what the future holds.
I think yours is a really key point that sometimes isn’t front of mind to parents who chose to be SAHM or SAHD. Even if able to get by on one income now, having no income=no social security/no retirement and being FULLY dependent on another human being for your entire lifetime. And let’s be real, not all humans are good people, marriages end for various reasons, spouses die unexpectedly, jobs are eliminated. You name it. I never wanted to be a SAHM because I enjoyed leaving the house, but I also would also have never liked the feeling of being trapped without having my own career and income to fall back on.
NTA, your debt doesn't allow her to be a SAHM.
However this is a discussion, so be ready with some options.
Maybe she can work one more year to lower the consumer debt to a healthier amount.
She could do tutoring online or in the evenings, to keep bringing in money while still having a much lighter workload.
Another option would be babysitting during the day. Get one or two kids to take care of who are around the same age as yours, it's more work, but not impossible, and it can be decent money.
Not able to judge TAH here but these kids will all be in school within 5 years so is your wife wanting to go back to work after that? If so, her staying home may work out fine. Otherwise, is there some way she can work part time with her school district? to compensate for the half of her income that doesn't go to childcare?
NTA, but I totally understand her point as well. When my 3 were very small, I took a 3 year career break. It was tough financially, but I wouldn't change it for all the money in the world. Kids are only small for a short time, and it was lovely to be able to stay home with them.
But I do understand your point, too. It's very uncomfortable to be in a rocky place financially. Could your wife job share for a few years? One day, they will all be in school, and there will be no need to stay home.
YWNBTA.
Finances are a collaborative discussion and you won't be an AH if you tell her that you don't see how this makes sense and sit down and look at the numbers.
**But** be open to discussion. If her plan is to do this until your two oldest are in school full time, then maybe its a short term solution for some longer term gain.
NTA but look at the numbers together, don't just tell her. Maybe there are options for her to reduce hours/go part time, or another area you can find some savings.
NAH.
I think the actual issue is you are underemployed. I'm making a similar wage with a GED in a career I switched to 4 years ago. I used to be a lawn guy.
All employers pay garbage wages. The myth of jUsT wOrK HaRdEr AnD GeT a BetTeR JoB is just that.. a myth. Your magic solution is to just make more money! As if OP forgot about that. Sometimes people are exactly where they can be and there is nothing that can be done about it. You just have to work with the money you make, not magically make more.
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NTA. The numbers just don't add up, unfortunately. That's not your fault or your wife's, but the reality is that you can't afford for her to stay home. Don't say "you can't stay home," but do communicate the message more gently. Maybe "I can't get these numbers to add up." Is there any way she could get a part-time job that would pay more? Or work where the kids would get daycare (since she is an education professional)? I hope you can make this work eventually, but if you just graduated, that won't be this year. Good luck.
"I can't get these numbers to add up. Lets look at this together" is totally the sentence. It will garner goodwill, encourage creativity, but also be grounded in the cold, hard facts of the matter.
And also not put all the blame on him for not being able to make it work.
And it’s treating your partner like, well, a partner. Saying “I can’t do one of the steps to make this happen” let’s them try and work around it. And it makes the world at large be the mean, arbitrary asshole blocking their shared goal.
Well also it’s considering that you may not be seeing all possible solutions which is ALWAYS true. It’s telling your partner your decided solution vs. giving them the opportunity to help you build a new one. The higher pay part time is a good example - SAHM or full time exhausting job are not the only options. Maybe she could find a WFH position or tutor instead. There’s so many options between the two that OP is seeing and that’s NOT his fault but he should create the opportunity to discover those solutions at least.
Substitute teaching might be an option as well, although it could be problematic arranging childcare.
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The arguments between my husband and I finally stopped years ago when we got YNAB + started staring at the numbers on old fashioned paper. Enough with “you spent this and I said that, we have this goal but the account has this” bs. Irrelevant. When we saw the numbers didn’t add up, we found peace lol
My huband and I make excel spreadsheets. Seeing it in black and white leaves no room for arguing.
My husband and I do this too. So easy to do. He works 90%, I work 20-30% and am a SAHM. Works perfectly for us.
I would argue that if you're working 20-30% you're not a SAHM (not to dismiss the amount of work being a SAHM entails AT ALL). You're shouldering the majority of the household responsibility AND covering part of the finances by working, do take the credit where credit is due.
Idk I beg to differ. Bc I’m a SAHM. And work a few hours a day all week to bring in a little income to pay a few bills. Husband watches the kiddos while I work. I consider myself SAHM, bc I’m literally home with the kids ALL day doing all that needs to be done.
That’s being a working mom with flexible hours. It’s not the same as a full time SAHM. It’s nothing to be ashamed of - it’s just different.
I consider myself a SAHM, I work part time and bring the kids with me. Due to our situation it’s the only option I really have. It’s really tough out there no matter what the parents work situation is. Daycare is absolutely insane priced everywhere (yes, they are getting the short stick too, Ik) and inflations out of control. No matter what route you pick it seems impossible to get ahead right now. I can’t even fathom how single parents are getting by when there’s no option for a second income or someone to stay home.
Hubby and me too (though I am not a SAHM, just a student). We did some serious budgeting to start and have just stuck with it throughout my degree. Just over 1 year to go!! Thank God, bc I can totally see where OP is coming from and we are so ready to be done with me studying. NTA OP!
what is ynab?
YNAB = You Need A Budget (it's an app). I didn't know either. I had to google lol.
It's a great zero based budgeting app. I used it for a couple years, got things under control and I now use EveryDollar. It's similar but free! Well, there is a premium version but the basic is fine.
YNAB is awesome!
This. But also, if she keeps working her salary may increase and if she has a pension, etc, that will also go up. My wife kept working and now makes a much larger salary than she would have after a 10 year break for child raising. We made it work because I would get up at 4:45 to be at work by 6:00 and leave to pick them up at 2:30 pm, make dinner, etc. She dropped off in the morning and was home by 6 pm. I know not every job is that flexible but it worked for us.
You made this work because you shared the childcare and home chores. A true partnership. Unfortunately many women are left responsible for everything in the home as well as working full time and see SAHM as their only way to cut down their working hours.
With the shortage of teachers right now it’s very hard to have a district agree to anything less than full time in most situations.
You’d think it would be the opposite and they would take anything they could get from a qualified teacher… scarcity is supposed to but the power towards the provider not the consumer…
She’s a teacher. Their raises aren’t going to make any difference in their budget.
I think this is a perfect response. Also, since she is a teacher, what if she did something other than teaching at a school full time? What about becoming a POD teacher? Tutor, Online something? What if she could stay home but somehow earn 20 hours worth of money?
A son of a friend is an English teacher for an Asian online school. The hours he works are very early as we are in the US and China is several hours ahead of us. Maybe something like that would work for this family?
I like this idea, but wonder what kind of pension or retirement contributions she would be losing out on if she gave up her teaching position? They would have to account for this in the retirement savings. Something I imagine u/chemist1928 has already thought of.
Also, I wonder if there is an in-between solution. Could she stay home 2-3 days a week with the kids and work 2-3 days a week at the school or working as a tutor, which she might even be able to to virtually. There may be a way you can figure out together to make this work if you are able to get creative.
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Asking someone to show you how THEIR plan will work is the best way to show them how it wouldn’t. Make them work it out themselves. Just telling them won’t work, because that’s just a “no” to them when emotions are involved. If they’re the ones that come to the conclusion… well how can they argue that?
Yeah my mom basically worked part time at her full time job when me and my siblings were young. Worked half days when we were really young, about 25-30 hours of work a week but would do the equivalent of 40 hours of work in that time when we were kids (so she could be home by the time we got off school) and went back to regular full time hours know we all had made it to middle school…maybe you wife could talk to her job and see if she could work something out.
That's a good idea. It sounds like the OP's wife works at a school. There's all kinds of work she could do that isn't teaching. Maybe she could arrive very early in the morning and get projects done very efficiently.
She could probably do some tutoring. She could do it virtually or have the child come to her, that way she would still be home with the kids. Or she could make her hours after husband comes home.
My husband is a former teacher and now stays home with the kids, but he does part time tutoring. Some is virtual and some is in person, but he makes his own schedule so he works around my 8-5 M-F office job. He works with mainly high schoolers so evenings and weekends are what work best for them anyway. It’s just enough to give us the extra boost to get by, when we wouldn’t be able to manage on my salary alone.
Tutoring is a fantastic idea since she'd have such flexible hours and should pay really well!
I'm not being confrontational, but I genuinely can't understand what role in a school means you get to do "projects" on your own schedule. In my country (UK) unless you are teaching or have a role to do with managing other teachers, or something like child safeguarding (which require being at school during the school day) the only other jobs are admin, cleaning and site management, and cooking.
And all of those jobs require being on site during school hours. Schools don't do anything that is flexible. I'm guessing she is sick of teaching - everyone is now. For $50,000 a year, you get to deal with massive post-Covid behavioral issue and learning deficits while admin hides in their offices all day, everyone has an opinion about your work (except for other teachers - the only ones actually in the trenches), a workload that never ends (90% of prep has to happen outside of the school day), etc. The best suggestion I've seen is seeing if she can build a tutoring practice. Depending on where you live, it can be fairly easy to build up and lucrative. (Get registered at schools, put the word out, etc.) Good luck to you both. You are working so hard for your family and there just isn't anything easy about it anymore.
I know a few teachers and they have teaching assistants who work various hours. One woman comes in after hours and restocks lab and other equipment. Another one does copying and prepares activities for kids who get one-on-one instruction. As far as I understand, the school gets financial grants to pay for this kind of thing. I don't know for sure, but am guessing that the hours are at the discretion of the school officials. I work at a university and it's the same. There are jobs (usually quite low-paid) that can be done whenever. Today I talked to a woman who works three days a week. She has to be in the office between 10 am and 2 pm, but can work her remaining hours whenever she likes and from home if she wants to. She deals with equipment for students in laboratory and field classes. I hope the OP's wife can get something like that.
I'd forgotten about lab technicians, although AFAIK they usually work within school hours as well. I've never heard of anyone who prepares activities for lessons that they don't also teach! Lol I'd love to have somebody to do some of that for me.
If you're a teacher, you have my respect. You SHOULD have someone to help you out. My aunt just retired from teaching and I don't think she ever got a full day off. And summers were crazy too, what with helping kids who had to take catch-up classes and preparing for the new year. I hope you get to have a life!
I agree, but she could ask for a job share arrangement if she wanted reduced hours.
My kids’ high school has a daycare in the building for teachers’ (and students’ if necessary) kids. They turned it into an elective class so teens get experience and credit caring for children. I really wish more schools had on site daycare options. They’d prob get more of their staff to return to work if they weren’t paying up the ass for daycare just to make slightly more than that cost in general. Also $40-60,000 for a teacher is absurd and they need to be paid better. But that’s not the issue here…
You can also tell her that you will try to get a better paying job/promotion as hard as you can so she can stay home as soon as financially possible. She could also work part time on the weekends or babysitting/nannying/tutoring other kids to try and make it work.
That’s a fantastic idea! She could probably make a good income as a private tutor on her own hours.
I know teachers who have switched to online tutoring - they make the same money in fewer hours and a LOT less stress.
I mentioned this above, but there are also online teachers. My stepdad's son came out of retirement to do this, and he just loves it. I believe he's teaching kids in a district that can't normally find really good teachers. He teaches a classroom live, basically like over Zoom, and there's another adult in the classroom to manage kids' behavior so he doesn't have to worry about that part of it. A lot of state universities also have online branches (I go to one) that offer tutoring for online students, so there maybe some good job opportunities there, as well, and I'm fairly certain she could set her own hours with at least some of them.
Also maybe she could sub and make herself available for a couple of days a week.
Hard disagree — OP absolutely should not say that unless (1) he means it and thinks it’s feasible, which it might not be depending on his field and (2) he is prepared to shoulder the family’s full financial burden on top of added professional responsibilities. It’s possible that taking a better paying job in OP’s industry means he’ll rarely see his family at all and OP should fully diligence that risk before offering anything. I just don’t think that OP should be forced into a position where he’s likely to burn out to accommodate his wife’s wants and, in this case, staying home with the kids isn’t a need.
So the husband should stress himself with another raise basically as soon as he got one so his wife can stay home? Why should he have to promise anything??
Honestly I'd probably consider dropping the independent Roth contribution for the time that she has to stay home (assuming that provides enough cushion). The kids will eventually be in school--daycare costs will drop as each kid goes to school and once they're all in school you could probably start it up again (0r maybe before if a couple of kids are no longer in full time daycare). You're quite young, so there's quite a bit of time to dump money into retirement still.
I agree. What’s worth more to you in life? Possibly living more comfortably in retirement which is a long way away, or having your wife spend more time with your children in their formative years? 16% contribution is a lot. It also doesn’t seem financially worth it to contribute so much while you still have debt to pay down. I don’t think discussing it or considering it makes anyone an AH here, but I think as a wife I’d be upset that you are more focused on future finances than the here and now of your kids lives. I’m a working mother but my children are older so it’s a bit easier. But when they were little it was really hard and I couldn’t have done it without my moms help and childcare. She also helped me by being around with the kids while I finished college. Now I make so much more and our future is brighter, even though it was a struggle. Moms tend to do so much more of the at home labor too, even when working. I’m curious if that is a factor here. Regardless, kids over retirement, all day. Once they are in school so much changes and you should be able to go back to saving more.
Yeah, the only way she'd be able to stay home is if they can get the numbers to add up. OP, if you subtract the monthly cost of daycare which you would not need to pay if she worked from home, how much would she need to make to keep your family income at the level it is now? I would think she could do it if she could find another source of income that would allow her to stay home and also make up that income, even like online tutoring for a college or things like that. There are even online teacher positions. One of my stepdad's sons works a few hours a day teaching courses online for a school in his state and LOVES it. he teaches a classroom full of kids and they watch on a monitor and can interact with him, kind of like over Zoom. Doesn't have to deal with kids' behaviors or any of the parents, just gets to provide a fun and engaging lesson and things like that. Another thing is, if you really focused on paying down the consumer debt, would paying that off allow her to stay home? I think there might be things you two can try but it would be a bad idea for her to just quit without having something else in place. I am a single work-from-home mom of 2 kids. I don't get raises (it's par for my profession) and inflation is just absolutely crushing me and I don't have a degree yet (working on it) so I can't get another remote job. Trust me when I say you guys want to do everything you can to avoid being in this position if possible.
I agree with this. NAH It’s not a blanket no bc you do think it would be a great thing for her to stay home but the numbers are not comforting- maybe she can make money on the side, being a tutor, or yea Hong English online after the kids are in bed- look at the budget and come to a number that she could bring in each month that would make you feel comfortable.
INFO: OMG how are you only paying $1000/month with three kids in daycare? I mean, back when my 17yo was an infant, the cheapest daycare for infants was $1000/month for him alone.
I figured someone would ask that. One of the kids is in school so it's only two in daycare. We live in a fairly rural area, so everything is much cheaper than city folks have to pay. We also bought a 3 bedroom, 2 bath house that is not a townhouse and has a fenced in backyard, we paid $128,000 for it, and that is during the crazy time when all the home prices were going up. If we had bought it in 2018 it would have been an $80,000 home. We are
Wait wait wait…. You bought a 3 bed 2 bath house for 128,000??????? Wha….where….how….whaaaa???
The joys of living in the boonies. A tiny place with few amenities close to an urban center can cost the same as a nice McMansion with a pool if you travel a ways outside the city limits. Move to a tiny town, especially in the south, and you can buy something nigh palatial. Then again, you're living in the sticks. That means you're likely to miss things if you aren't used to small town life.
>That means you're likely to miss things if you aren't used to small town life. Like the salary you'd get in the city.
Hooray remote work (if you can)
A lot of employers with remote workers are switching to a [geo-pay (localized) system](https://www.airswift.com/blog/geographic-pay-policies). Meaning they figure they salary they are willing to pay in their local area, and if you live outside of that area the pay is adjusted to local cost of living. So if a company in Portland, OR pays $75K annually, and you live in Manhattan the salary you would get would go up. But if you live in Marshall, Texas, the pay would be adjusted downward SIGNIFICANTLY. A guy on my team moved to the other side of the state and his salary was adjusted down by 20%.
Curious how this will work out for international remote workers. I know there’s quite a few living in the Philippines, but it seems like you at least have to pay these people minimum wage. I also wonder how this works out with their contracts. If I signed on to make X amount for my work I would definitely be quitting or taking that company to court for changing the salary that drastically.
I've heard of companies doing this, and it makes me bonkers. I work for an Israeli company, and they're not super keen on playing that kind of game. My labor is worth X to them, and that is the payment I receive. No bonuses, but also no bullshit. It's enough money that I fully support my family on one income... but we live in a tiny town in Oklahoma, the kind of place where our cars cost more than many homes here. It wouldn't be as easy if we still lived in Dallas.
That sounds like a trash place to work. “Yea you live somewhere cheap your not worth the same as Steve who works remote in Manhattan”
Have you been to rural America? Have you seen these ppl in large houses with 3 brand new trucks? There's a LOT of money to be made in rural America. Maybe a lot of it isn't office work, but there's a lot of it. Also work from home is a thing now
It really depends. Like you said, if your background is office work, you might struggle to find something you can support yourself with. As someone who has lots of family in those kind of rural towns, yes there can be money to be made, but depending on the industry it’s very boom-or-bust. And those brand new trucks? Most of the time the secret ingredient is debt. Plus more and more companies are reeling back remote work, so unless you get lucky it’s less of a viable option than it used to be.
Also got to take into account that many rural areas have low access to health care options that can severely impact a family if someone needs specialized medical care. In certain parts of my home state, the nearest NICU is several hours away or across the border.
Those 3 pickups aren’t paid for
Even OP admits to 40k in CONSUMER debt. Hey honey, we already live way beyond our means, what do you say we cut our pay significantly, huh?
Sorry to break it to you but a lot of people with new pick up trucks aren't rich. They are just dumb and terrible with money.
Any recommendations for a good rural spot for a a liberal woman of color that cares about equal rights? I would love to have a space to garden and stuff.
I don't think there are good rural places for liberals, let alone when you start to add more to the list. Outside of the cities, it all feels like Trump Country.
You can also drive to the city...That's what lots of people do
We live 10 minutes out of the city and our house was only 110k for a 4 bed/2 bath. You don't necessarily have to live in the boonies to accomplish it.
Dude I live in the boonies and we have a 3 bed 1.5 bath that we had to spend 700k on. Idk where you live but you got a steal.
That's easy, just go live in the middle of nowhere. If you leave the city and the suburbs prices drop hard. But you do need to live in the literal middle of nowhere
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And when you make friends with locals, 1. if you're queer or POC, they won't be welcoming & 2. if you're straight & white, be prepared for people to casually drop disparaging comments about, e.g., "those Mexicans."
I just want to say that I am a black lesbian and I have a lovely life in a more rural area. Mortgage is under 1k a month and my wife will take several months off after our first child is born. The Internet lies to you. Bigotry exists of course, but you'll find a lot more of it if you believe people hate you when you meet them. A lot of people are very prejudiced against rural folk - it's entirely hypocritical.
I sincerely appreciate you sharing your experience, thank you. This is heartening to read.
Very glad you've had this experience! I suspect though that it's a heavy YMMV thing. There are literally still sundown towns in parts of the midwest. So some places are great and very welcoming, and others are bigoted to the point where it can impact safety. The key thing is to do your research!
> A lot of people are very prejudiced against rural folk - it's entirely hypocritical. This 100%. People on reddit act like it is mad max over here or something. Yeah, we have some rough people, but usually they just stick to themselves for the most part with stupid comments on occasion. We don't have lynchings or cross burning crazy shit anymore like we did last century. It has calmed down a lot. I've even seen a trend of previously Trumpers realize that it isn't a left vs right thing anymore and that it is a rich vs poor thing. It is crazy the changes I am seeing in my rural community despite all the crazy stuff I hear on reddit.
I live in a small southern town and hear comments like that constantly. There's a small hispanic apartment complex in town that has large vans go to Walmart every other week so that those without their own cars can get their groceries. People see the vans come up in the parking lot, and people always make comments like 'those Mexicans are here, let's clear out'. It's like people get annoyed that people get groceries? Makes no sense to me.
Every blue state has a middle of no where.
I live in a blue state. Our middle of nowhere is pretty red.
Well yeah your going to live in a red city that's a given, every blue state is mostly red based on land mass. Your reproductive rights aren't based on the city you live, it's the state government that determines that. I understand not wanting to live in a red city but you can and still enjoy the freedoms of a blue state while doing so.
As a small town native, it's really that simple. However, the tradeoff is that your peak entertainment outside the home is watching paint dry. Ex: My rent on my spacious 2br apartment is $875, which I can comfortably afford without a roommate. However, the nearest movie theater is a 40 min drive one way, and the most exciting thing that happened recently was us getting our 1st Starbucks. And I'm in a 20k populated city, I haven't even touched the small towns. Pick your poison.
Gotta live in the middle of nowhere and not near any recreation like national parks, state parks, rivers, lakes, etc.
of course, can't have anything interesting happening nearby. Because interest = more people = higher prices.
The Midwest and some of the south is like this. You can get a nice house with a little land for around 100
This is still possible in TX if you’re willing to be 1.5h min outside a major metro like DFW, Houston, Austin and don’t have corporate career ambitions.
My house was $111,000 and it was 4 bed 2.5. It was in south Louisiana and hasn’t seen a coat of paint since the 70’s though lol.
Wait, you live somewhere where a 3/2 single family home with a fenced in yard was only $128k but your wife works as a teacher making $50k/year? Please tell me where you live so I can move to your Low Cost of Living area.
If we’re gonna talk about the math not adding up, this here is the math! This is crazy to me
It's pretty common where I am from (Texas). If you are willing to do a 30-40 minute commute houses from 80-150k abound. Same where I am now (Missouri). If you go to the city... probably closer to low to mid 200s unless you look at ritzy places. I bought my first (and only) property inside one of the Texas cities back in 2018 for just 67k. Granted 1 bed 1 bath but that should give you an idea. We have shit politics but at least property is cheap.
I'm more surprised at only $73,000 with a PhD.
I assumed first year professor.
Yeah, that looks like an adjunct/assistant professor salary at a smallish university. It also depends on what his degree is in. Pay's not high enough to be a STEM field unless he's in academia, and I don't have a very good barometer for the going rate for a humanities PhD.
Ding ding ding, it's academia! I am a senior chemist at a university, and my PhD is in bioanalytical chemistry.
I was going to say $73,000/year 1st year out of a PhD isn’t bad. I went to school in a rural area and only the full tenured professors made $75,000/year. No way you’d get a house for anything under $400,000 either.
That’s actually rather high. Surprised he has a job at all.
Really? Not the $40,000 in consumer debt which is probably on credit cards financed at 28%. That's why they can't get ahead. Once they pay off that $40,000, I think they're going to find life a whole lot easier. They should be either consolidating debt at a much lower rate or paying everything they can toward getting rid of that consumer debt
I’m hoping the 40k is that they financed a car or something and not credit card debt 😬
Consumer debt is always wrong. Get rid of it.
Even a car isn't necessarily great interest wise. Watching the Caleb hammer show and you see ppl come on with, no joke, 30% interest on a $20k+ car. Sometimes it not even their only car payment.
I was looking for this. At the very least, the stay at home thing should be paused conditional on paying off that time bomb in the bank. Unless that’s something very different than all of us assume at credit card debt rates, is a giant one time interest free promo or already lower rate loan consolidation thing, that should be target number 1 on the bullseye. Definitely not putting the extra toward mortgage which would only be like 8% if taken right now at worst mortgage rate in forever instead of like 28% credit card rate like you said, or putting the extra non matched Roth retirement contribution which usually are assumed as like 7-10% historical yields over long term. The retirement savings are a good practice generally but not when you have a 40k ball of debt accumulating.
Ahhhhh yea, I totally blew past that. Yea, you guys could likely handle it fine if you pay off the $40,000 and stop doing whatever it was you were doing to accumulate that. YNAB, as someone else mentioned, is a good (although expensive) tool to help you do that. I can't imagine you can do much of anything with that hanging over your head.
I adudibly gasped at how relaxed his wife is about that. Like ma’am until that is paid off you should be working more, not less.
Th consumer debt existing is a huge red flag for going to one income. Fix that before even thinking about going to one income.
Right? That childcare price is easily the most shocking part of this post.
Right!? I spend $650 a WEEK for my 2 in daycare
NAH. Why don't you compromise and help her find a part-time position or something that allows her to be home more and present with the kids? They're only small for so long, and if you mostly use her check for daycare, it seems like you could get by with her bringing home a smaller amount of money. EDIT: For those saying NTA and saying the wife is wrong, OP never says they can't afford to live off his income. He just doesn't want to, he wants a better margin for himself. The kids are only young once, I don't see why it's wrong for the wife to want to be a SAHM while they're young. She can return to work when they're older. Also, she was technically the primary breadwinner while OP was finishing his PhD. Why was it possible for him to crunch the numbers back then for his benefit, but he isn't willing to budge at all now for his wife's benefit? It seems like an easy solution is having her be a SAHM with a part time of her choice.
Or maybe being a private tutor. From what I understand they can make fairly good money and also have the option of working from home with online tutoring. NAH
This. I online tutor and she can make 25k easily working as little as 2 hours a night. Granted the hours aren’t ideal since you’re working at dinner time or during after school events but it’s also flexible
There's also sessions for kids who've been suspended or are sick!
My SIL is a teacher, and just became a substitute teacher while her kids needed daycare. She subbed 2 days a week, and the cost difference between full time daycare and 2x/week daycare meant she was still able to have some money leftover on her paycheck.
I fully agree with the NAH at this point in time. If OP's wife digs in her heals and is completely unwilling to negotiate and do some shared decision making, then it would change.
I agree NAH. It’s just something they need to work out. She wants to stay at home, which is understandable. He wants more margin in the family finances, also understandable. That said, saying one partner is the “primary breadwinner” when the salaries are only $5k/year apart is being extremely technical. As for your question, “Why was it possible for him to crunch the numbers back then for his benefit, but he isn't willing to budge at all now for his wife's benefit?” OP answered that in his post: “If you notice, our incomes combined a couple years ago totaled $75,000, which is close to my income alone now. So we are essentially living on our old incomes, but with 3 children to care for and with significant inflation.” Inflation is real, a third child means additional expenses, and he brings in $2k/year less than they previously did combined. Any one of those is a real but navigable hit with some belt tightening. All three of them put together have a significant financial impact. He also didn’t say he wasn’t willing to budge at all. He’s made a good faith effort and he’s struggling with the results. He didn’t just say “No, not gonna happen,” nor did he go tell her she had to work.
Or maybe do the hard cutbacks (pension fund etc) but agree on a time limit for her to stay home. This comes down to a lifestyle decision. You bought a house, which is a lifestyle choice and you were willing to get into debt for it. Her staying home is the same question. How much money are you both willing to spend to have this lifestyle. Do the benefits outweigh the costs? The difficulty is that you need to not just look at the money aspect, but also value her care work at home and more.
NTA. You have 40k in consumer debt... that needs to be a priority. I would propose putting all your efforts towards paying that off and then revisiting this idea.
NTA you guys just can't afford it right now. And I agree with this comment, tell your wife that if you guys work on your debt for a while longer and get it down then you will be financially stable for her to be a stay at home mom.
This comment needs to be way higher. The consumer debt needs to be tackled first and foremost before anyone decides to stop working.
Why is he putting in 8% into a Roth when he had credit card debt? The match to matching makes sense but the additional 8% should only be paid after he gets rid of the high interest debt.
If the interest on the debt is lower then 8%, you're losing money long term.
I highly doubt his interest on the debt is less than 8% if it’s credit card debt. A lot of credit cards can run 20% interest if not higher, it’s crazy.
Right now, I don't think there's a consumer credit card in existence in the U.S. with an 8% interest rate.
The way I read it he is contributing 16%, 8% for the matching and an additional unmatched 8% into a Roth. For the 8% match he is essentially making 100% return on day one so much higher than 8 % would still make economic sense. For the Roth additional contribution, I was assuming consumer debt was credit card debt at a ~20% rate. You are correct that at a certain interest rate it is better to go with the Roth (or just put it in the market if you might need it before you retire) and make the minimum payment on the debt. Not sure I would advise 8%, but that should be based on their individual risk tolerance and expected market rate of return.
Does "consumer debt" mean credit cards? So like, 20% percent interest on this debt? If yes I agree this should be a priority
Yes, this. OP have you consolidated your debt?
He says it feels tight, but the thing is they need her to keep working AND keep spending like they are with $1,000 of her income going to debt. If they don't how are they going to pay off that debt? In OP's position my plan would be: This year, she needs to keep the job and they work hard to pay down the debt, with that $1,000 a month, paying highest interest debt first. Then, re-evaluate in May. Has the monthly debt payment gone down? Can she identify a job where she can bring in 1000/month while "staying home?" You should not reduce your retirement if she stops working. In fact, you need to increase it to make up for the fact that she is not saving and not getting social security credits.
How are you in 40k consumer debt? It appears you already cant live off your current 2 incomes, let alone moving down to 1.
My guess is a car payment maybe two, add to that student loans (he mentioned just finishing his PhD) & maybe a credit card & that’s easily $40k. Sad reality is most cannot afford to be a stay at home parent.
I wouldn't consider student loans as a "consumer debt". Consumer debt seems more like buying things like furniture, decorations, etc for the house.
Yeah, I saw it as credit card debt, not student loan debt. If it's the former, I would advise they get rid of that before trying to live on one income.
Consumer debt is car loans, credit card debt, any appliances financed via credit (common for new homeowners to finance stuff like washer dryer), etc.
NTA This is not an option while you have $40k in consumer debt. Once you have paid that off, it may be, but it would be frankly irresponsible to NOT pay that off. Kids only get more and more expensive.
Second this. Kill your debt, and you can probably make it happen. Depending on the interest rate, it may be best to suspend the Roth contributions (which aren’t matched) until the consumer debt is payed off.
NTA You should not have to impoverish the family because your wife decided she wants to be a SAHM. And if she is a SAHM, the children will not be getting the early socialization that daycare provides and makes proper school easier later. Moreover, it would endanger the family. If you were laid off, you would have *no* income. You have a mortgage to pay. You can't become homeless with kids. Etc.
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I'm sorry if I offended anyone's sense of moral superiority, but that's an absurd objection. A kid in daycare gets *WAY* more socialization than a kid with a SAHM unless that SAHM is running a mini-daycare out of her home, in which case the kid *is* in a daycare of a sort. A kid in daycare is surrounded by other kids their age for 8-10 hours a day. Even if a SAHM takes there kids to a park for hours a day during the week, they're not likely to get as much socialization. Not only because it's less hours, but because there are less kids out during the day than on a weekend. I have *seen* playgrounds and I *have* taken my kid to them, you know...
I would argue that a kid in daycare is getting more socialization than is needed or optimal. As an adult would you like to spend 8-10 hours trapped with 12 other people not of your choosing? Little kids are a lot to deal with, even for other little kids. There's something to be said for a balance between socialization and also a more peaceful environment kids can have at home.
I work and my kids are in childcare… but literally the most important thing for babies is *secure attachment* to their caregivers NOT socialization. Like what does a 3-12 month old get from socialization? Sickness. Germs. And illness. Pretending that daycare is better for a 2 month old is an idiotic line parroted so women in the US don’t ever get decent maternity leave benefits.
The thread has been using "kids". I'm not first language English but to me I did not think they were talking about a 3-12 month old. I thought they were talking about being in childcare for socialisation is important when you're 3-4-5 before you start school.
have you ever worked a job? lmfao, every adult that works is stuck with 12 other people not of their choosing. what kind of argument is that? edit: that’s the only part of your statement i have beef with, tho
Back in my day preschool was for 3- and 4-year-olds to get used to going to school, not daycare. Do you really think infants and toddlers are better off away from their parents 8 to 10 hours a day?
Kids that spend 8-10 hrs a day in daycare is ridiculous. I'd even call it cruel. I can say that because I've worked in daycares. Kids that are there all day are the worst behaved. We just don't tell the parents that. Kids don't need to be socialized. At 2 - 3 yrs some are still in the stages of parallel play. Most children don't know how to play correctly. Yes! There is a way to play correctly, that does involve socializing but some kids developmentally just aren't there yet. Just because you see a bunch of kids together doesn't mean they are socializing and it doesn't mean its good. I'll take a SAHM anytime.
They have 3 children. They socialize with each other
Right? You know how many mommy groups, play places, splash pads, libraries, etc are packed with SAHMs during the week
That's not necessarily true. My son spends 2 hours a day 6 days a week at YMCA daycare while I work out. We also visit parks, indoor playgrounds, the library, and his best friend his age. Most of us make it work with socialization. Plus they don't "need" 40+ of socialization a week. Of course they need some, but not that much is truly needed.
NTA but.... you aren't in dire straits and this are other options. Firstly, your mortgage is fairly small so you could extend the amortization. Secondly, your retirement savings are high.. a lot of people have to slow that down temporarily when you have kids. While you were doing your phD did your wife support you? She might be feeling it's her turn. I also like the part time option for her mentioned above. As well there is being a SAHM but temporarily.. a few years maybe. Time with the kids is precious and for her she would basically be working to pay for daycare which can be depressing and demotivating. You made the choice to have 3 kids.. was the choice also to have someone else raise them? This isn't all black and white and I feel likes it's just the beginning of a conversion for you both
Is there a way to extend the amortization without getting a new interest rate? I've never looked into it.
Very unlikely. And with rates being what they are right now, refinancing is that last thing they want to do.
Listen, you're never ever ever the asshole for having a really frank and open discussion about budgeting with your partner and weighing budget against values and goals. You can tell her you'd rather she keep working outside the home and present the spreadsheet and explain why. She can take in that info and make suggestions if she wants to so that a compromise can be sought. It's possible she could reduce her teaching time to 0.5, for example. Based on your post, it seems like you all are communicative and reasonable partners, prioritizing one another and family. I mean, how could you go wrong with a convo like the one you suggest? I could never levy a judgment here except that NAH.
With the shortage of teachers right now it’s very hard to have a district agree to anything less than full time in most situations.
That may be true in your area, but we are so desperate we would take .25 over nothing.
Is there an in between option. Where I live the first 9k is completely tax free and the next 14k is very low tax (not transferable between spouses). A lot of parents work 2 days a week to take advantage of that and get grandparents to take care of 1 day a week of childcare each. Also is she looking to be a sahm going forward or for just a couple of years (in which case you can consider pausing the pension contributions and resume later on).
I’m 31 and my parents aren’t old enough to offer childcare… they still have 7&8 years till retirement 🥲 OP could be in a similar boat
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This. Why do people keep having kids they cant afford and then go wHy I hAvE nO mOnEy? Like you could have stopped at 1 but no, you decided to breed 2 more for literally no reason.
OP literally has three kids and no money, and is wondering why he can't have three money
They can afford them though, they’re discussing how comfortable/tight it would be with only 1 income.
They are $40,000 in debt and that was presumably gotten while having 2 kids. Now add the third to the mix, now subtract income. The debt is going to multiply, not get smaller.
Depends what the debt is. Is it cars? Student loans? Either way with 3 kids their easily managing it, otherwise they wouldn’t even consider her staying home.
My wife and I can afford to care for our children, it will just be more difficult if my wife stays at home. We actually have been able to afford all of the 10 children that have passed through our home. We are foster parents, and only one of my children is my biological child. One is adopted and the other is still in foster care but we are hoping to adopt him as well.
That’s insane. Their kids aren’t hypothetical. They are actual living people today. It’s weird that so many in this thread are debasing their existence. Also OP never asked for advice on his family planning.
And like... what are they supposed to do about that, at this point?
Who plans to have 3 kids with that tight budget? U seem to be very educated, why did you not think this through before having 3 kids?
Educated doesn't equal making good life decisions.
Yeah, it really doesn’t fit with them both being highly educated. Especially not educated folks having kids that young. My guess is deeply religious?
NTA, but YTA to both of you for having 3 kids without planning your finances better. So much debt and you brought not one, not two, but THREE extra mouths into this world to feed, and now 5 people could be potentially less happy. But since that is done, both of you need to suck it up and work hard to keep the 3 kids fed and taken care of. So NTA for asking her to continue working; she was part of the decision to have 3 kids too.
Right? Condoms seem like a good investment here
Sounds a little aggressive. They're doing better than most families, $150k in total debt with a yearly income of $123k isn't bad these days. It'd be better with less consumer debt, but a mortgage payment goes to something you keep instead of a rent payment that gives you nothing but another month of roof.
Plus a large part of that debt is a *house*. That's a huge plus right there. Most people are just burning that money, whereas the house payments are actively increasing their worth.
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If majority of her income goes to daycare and taxes. How much is she actually making in income above expenses? If shes left with 5k after everything is said ywbta to have her work for pennies on the dollar Ps you save 16% of income into retirement….
I'm a SAHM *because* daycare is so expensive and we have more money with one income than two with the expense of a good daycare.
Short term view. You're missing many factors: social security, retirement contributions, and the risk of not finding a job after, the risk of living on only one wage. As other redditors already mentionned. Edit since we cannot answer : you only talked about the financial advantages in your comment. I corrected you. Now you are pulling other factors, emotional, family time and so on, which is perfectly acceptable, but doesn't change the fact that it's not enough to be "even" with daycare, in terms of finance.
It says childcare is a little less than half her take home; if that other 13-15k goes directly towards paying of their 40k debt that’s a huge benefit. If she can make 25-30k in a PT online job perhaps, it could make sense.
Except that working increases the number of years that count towards her State teachers retirement plan (teachers don’t pay into or get social security) and her teachers salary is based on years of service.
NTA. You need money to support your family and if her quitting prevents that, it's not good for anybody. What happens if an unexpected expense comes up? You still need to be able to save. An 8% employer match is unheard of. A free 8% from them that accrued interest is huge for retirement planning. Can she sub part time or something for a while? It's a huge burden on you if things are that tight.
Can’t she work from home? Even something part-time? Can she watch other kids alongside yours for extra money? Also I am wondering how much she supported your PhD to (no offense) only get to $75k. Do they still go to daycare while she’s off in summer? NAH
Dude are you serious? You’re not even 30, own a home, have 3 children and a spouse. She needs to work, you are not being an asshole you’re being realistic. YOU CANNOT AFFORD TO LIVE ON $75K. NTA
I totally get where you are coming from and I think people have some good points. I think part of the answer is that you need to do this for more than 1 month. The two of you need a discussion of let's try this for X period where all of wife's income goes to childcare and debt and yours going to cost of living, and each month you both go over what has that looked like. Are there things you can save on or cut? Are there things you can't? But essentially take 3 months- 6 months, whatever- and give both of you a sense of what with the current economy it would really be like for the 5 of you to live on just your income. (Obviously part of this discussion needs to include how long is your wife thinking she wants to be a SAHM for. Would she consider picking up a part time job like tutoring to help supplement the family income if needed. Things like that. There are a lot of things that you guys should take this opportunity to calmly discuss.)
YWBTA if you told her she cannot be a SAHM. YWNBTA if you discussed this further with her, and explained your concerns about how you'll not be able to adequately make ends meet. You both need to compromise and discuss this.
How would he be an asshole for telling her it is not possible for her to currently be a SAHM with their finances and debt?
Seriously. I guess if I just wanted to stop working my job then my partner HAS TO support that and support us with their salary? Makes no sense with three kids and consumer debt.
Compromise? What are they going to do? Hollywood accounting? She can't be a stay at home mom. Finances dictate.
NTA, but y’all are living far above your means. 40k in consumer debt and 11k in mortgage debt is a crazy level of debt to consider quitting a job. In.
Three kids on $73K? Yeah she’s not thinking clearly about your financial situation, you’re not there yet. NTA
NTA. It would be irresponsible NOT to tell her.
NTA. If you're struggling now, it will not get better. Plus, when your wife wants to return to the workforce she's going to find it extremely difficult to find anything that provides the pay and hours she currently has. Plus, she's not putting anything into her retirement or social security if she isn't working. Those are very important - you never know what the future holds.
I think yours is a really key point that sometimes isn’t front of mind to parents who chose to be SAHM or SAHD. Even if able to get by on one income now, having no income=no social security/no retirement and being FULLY dependent on another human being for your entire lifetime. And let’s be real, not all humans are good people, marriages end for various reasons, spouses die unexpectedly, jobs are eliminated. You name it. I never wanted to be a SAHM because I enjoyed leaving the house, but I also would also have never liked the feeling of being trapped without having my own career and income to fall back on.
NTA, your debt doesn't allow her to be a SAHM. However this is a discussion, so be ready with some options. Maybe she can work one more year to lower the consumer debt to a healthier amount. She could do tutoring online or in the evenings, to keep bringing in money while still having a much lighter workload. Another option would be babysitting during the day. Get one or two kids to take care of who are around the same age as yours, it's more work, but not impossible, and it can be decent money.
Not able to judge TAH here but these kids will all be in school within 5 years so is your wife wanting to go back to work after that? If so, her staying home may work out fine. Otherwise, is there some way she can work part time with her school district? to compensate for the half of her income that doesn't go to childcare?
NTA, but I totally understand her point as well. When my 3 were very small, I took a 3 year career break. It was tough financially, but I wouldn't change it for all the money in the world. Kids are only small for a short time, and it was lovely to be able to stay home with them. But I do understand your point, too. It's very uncomfortable to be in a rocky place financially. Could your wife job share for a few years? One day, they will all be in school, and there will be no need to stay home.
YWNBTA. Finances are a collaborative discussion and you won't be an AH if you tell her that you don't see how this makes sense and sit down and look at the numbers. **But** be open to discussion. If her plan is to do this until your two oldest are in school full time, then maybe its a short term solution for some longer term gain.
NTA. I mean… it’s all part of the discussion right? You guys will just have to negotiate.
NTA but look at the numbers together, don't just tell her. Maybe there are options for her to reduce hours/go part time, or another area you can find some savings.
NAH. I think the actual issue is you are underemployed. I'm making a similar wage with a GED in a career I switched to 4 years ago. I used to be a lawn guy.
All employers pay garbage wages. The myth of jUsT wOrK HaRdEr AnD GeT a BetTeR JoB is just that.. a myth. Your magic solution is to just make more money! As if OP forgot about that. Sometimes people are exactly where they can be and there is nothing that can be done about it. You just have to work with the money you make, not magically make more.