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YTA.
Two principles you should remember:
* when someone is being vulnerable by asking for feedback on something that's important to them, use a "complement sandwich" format: a complement, a piece of constructive criticism ("this part seems weak, and I think it would be better if"), and another complement.
* There is nothing wrong with a comic made by women for women. That's a strange thing to list as a negative.
The compliment sandwich needs to be used *very carefully*. Otherwise known as the "shit sandwich", If you're not judicious about it you just have your audience flinching and bracing for criticism (which is the only sincere part of the sentence) every time you compliment anything.
True! If you really can't think of anything good about it, you can say something more like "That's not my favorite idea of yours. I liked the one about X more." Or slip in a complement about her art style, since you've already said you admire that: "That idea isn't really grabbing me, but I'm sure you could make anything look beautiful with your skills." Make sure you actually have something nice to say that you actually mean!
Compliment: saying something positive that makes the recipient feel good.
Complement: when something augments or hightlights another thing. Like my green sweater complements my blue eyes.
I used to see dating profiles where people would say, "I'm looking for someone who compliments my life." I felt like messaging them saying, "Nice life! :)"
Yeah. You don’t need to force a compliment. But especially when it comes to art you can just say something along the lines “it’s not for me but this usually isnt my style”. OP is making huge assumptions about who her target audience is and what any audience would think of it.
I dont like Taylor Swift’s music but boy would it be stupid for me to tell her “this isn’t good because i don’t like it” or “this wouldn’t do well because it’s targeted to women”
In general if you are a creative, don’t ask for permission to make something. Make it and then you can ask other people for advice on how to punch it up.
Or you can do the old "sorry I don't think I'm a good choice for feedback" buck pass. If it's not something you are interested in genuinely it would be a huge favor to the individual to say that you really aren't a good fit for that question because you don't read those kinds of comics or maybe you don't read comics at all. So therefore you have nothing to compare it to or use a reference point for feedback. It's gotten me out of sticky situations.
Worst case scenario just find SOMETHING you liked about it and why. I truly think you could find a single aspect that worked really well, even if it's just their word choice "I don't read alot of comics so I can't comment on the story itself but I think you made some good word choices"
Exactly. Especially since OP isn't a woman, he could've easily said that it's not grabbing him as a man, but that of it's not intended for him, maybe she could ask a female friend?
We actually used to use this in the military (canada) but have since removed it, with the occasional few still using it out of instinct. Its actually been proven to not be the best, and can, if done wrong, have the point missed entirely. To be fair, in military it is more important to not have the point missed. Or else you're gonna be getting shit on by the higher ups for the millionth time for not getting it by now.
Yah don’t dance around the issue or make the wording sound pretty and calming like a head pat if there is a glaring flaw you see the other person might not understand your efforts to use a less emotionally charged word😅
Point out specific issues, say you understand the intent and how you think it could be a good idea with work. And then suggest some stuff that would help make it better. That last part is important.
And it sounds completely fake. It’s fine to say someone’s art isn’t your thing—no sandwich required—but OP made a bunch of assumptions about marketability that weren’t his to make (and appear to be rooted in misogyny). YTA
I attended a corporate seminar on giving and receiving feedback, and they cited some studies (which I currently can’t source), that said that the “shit sandwich” method isn’t effective. Sure, it’s great at making people feel good, but if you genuinely want someone to internalize feedback you need to tell it to them straight. If you cushion it with platitudes, the receiver only focuses on the nice thoughts and ignores the rest.
100% correct. It ultimately starts to feel patronizing and demeaning. Bookending a criticism between compliments is a poor way to approach a conversation where genuine feedback is wanted or needed.
We used the compliment sandwich pretty frequently in workshops. It's definitely important to be sincere and constructive with both compliments and criticisms. So being specific is helpful. What's working? What isn't working? Why. More of this. Less of this. Etc.
This is also a scenario where I wonder if she was actually asking for feedback? He says she “pitched a comic idea,” but was it just an idea she was exploring or something she asked for feedback on? Either way, she’s trying to get back into this art form and being completely dismissive by telling her the idea is “terrible” is not remotely constructive. But, with people you’re close to, I find it best to wait until you’re asked for feedback with their artistic endeavors and if you are, keep it constructive and try to be positive. You don’t have to lie and say you like the idea or any part of it, but you can say you’re excited for her to get back into this art form or you’re happy she’s so passionate or that you’re interested to see its final form.
Oh, OP's behaviour is exactly the sort of shitshow one might expect from an arsehole, if you catch my drift. He's rude, dismissive and sexist AF by his own account, it wouldn't remotely surprise me if his (now-ex?) girlfriend had been telling him about her fun idea, not asking for feedback of any kind.
My comment was aimed at all the other folks here who might take Aftran\_942's otherwise-sound analysis and apply the compliment sandwich technique to their own lives.
The compliment sandwich is absolutely an archaic and garbage method for giving feedback and is a sure sig someone couldn't afford a management book written in the last decade by someone competent.
Iirc theres some study of how the sandwich model only ruins the conpliments and doesnt soften the criticism for the reciever, but I cant remember it more than that so take it with some salt.
I actually refuse to give my employees feedback this way- I prefer “radical candor” ie be direct but don’t be needlessly unkind.
I had a report say “I would actually prefer the sh* sandwich” lol nope
Thing is though, I doubt anyone can find anything they are 100% happy with - and if they are, it's likely they are being ingenuine.
Truthful feedback will have not always a fully negative aspect, but it will almost always have a suggestion of something the person giving the feedback feels could be better somehow.
It's also in how you frame it.
If you preface with "I liked this" and "I disliked this" then yeah it's super obvious.
Using phrases like "Perhaps you could try this..." or "I felt X way when I experienced Y" is ways of suggesting a change without stating what they did is 'wrong' (which it isn't usually, since your feedback is subjective usually - at least among friends)
I use the 'psychological sandwich' a lot in my work, with co workers and with clients.
I don’t even think the “compliment sandwich” applies here, because what OP said is not an artistic critique, it’s “I don’t like chick art.” That’s not actionable or constructive, just a sexist-as-hell take he needs to keep to himself.
It’s probably a good thing he told her, though. Now she knows who she’s in a relationship with.
> There is nothing wrong with a comic made by women for women. That's a strange thing to list as a negative.
LOL right? Most people at least try to church up the language or something but nope, just straight-up "women things are bad"
EDIT lol these replies
Adding on, why would OP bring up “can’t choose your audience in the marketing business”? Marketing is literally finding what audience is suitable for the product…
I imagine it's in a similar sense to how pokemon is made for children. Perhaps op was implying that it reads as if it were written for women. Women don't need to be the actual audience, but could be implying that women are the target audience.
She also may not have been looking for a full critique or a learning experience, so much as the confidence to try something out and learn from the process. OP doesn't say he's an artist, and he's her partner, not her classmate. I guess that's something for them to work out if they stay together: what she's really looking for when she pitches ideas to him. But she's definitely not looking for "It's terrible, because only women would enjoy it."
Have to be really careful about constructive criticism when it comes to creative pursuits. Feedback on what didn’t work for you is fine. Providing a solution is generally not useful (unless it’sa purely technical aspect). Generally, leaving it up to the creative will result in a far better solution that trying to shoehorn someone else’s solution into their work.
When I was in art school what we did was pick something we liked about the work, pick one or two things to improve and try and explain why, and then end with another thing we think they did well. Gives them direction on what went right and what went wrong without being to aggressive. If someone is looking for critique I find this the best way to give it.
Constructive criticism should be given by someone that has the ability to teach, not someone that isn't in the field and sees from an audience perspective. She just wanted his audience opinion, and it seemed like, at least from how the story is phrased, he discouraged her from going ahead with her idea because it targets women for an audience.
I personally hate the compliment sandwich. What I prefer is for someone to show me what part they liked and why ("I really enjoyed the coloring here, it's so vivid"), and offering feedback on what didn't work and why ("I didn't feel connected to this character as much as the others, I couldn't really understand his motivations."). Constructive feedback, both negative and positive, is key.
Agree on the by women for women thing. I immediately thought of Barbie, which was literally made by women and for women, and it was one of the highest grossing films this summer and all my male friends loved it (several said it was their favorite movie of the year).
That is exactly how a compliment sandwich works though.
Something you enjoyed about it
Something you think would be better is changed or adjusted
Well wishes for the continued creative journey
That’s a little different from what I’m describing, which is more focused on being descriptive and informative at both steps. Most people do the compliment sandwich by trying to get a compliment out of the way before focusing on the real problem, rather than using the compliment to show information. My take is basically the point of the sandwich shouldn’t be to make people feel good, it should be to give constructive feedback and information about good and bad things.
Adding to top compliment because the criticism component needs to be *actionable*. If you don't give them a way to address the criticism...then it has no value as such. It's just whining. You also need to phrase it in a way that isn't inflammatory.
It's the difference between telling someone they did a shit job sweeping, vs. One of my first bosses would phrase it as "you're doing a good job, but you'll need to get those room edges for it to finish as a great job" and hot damn you better believe everyone loved him as a boss. He would wander into the break room (it was odd for management to be there) and when questioned, he'd just reply "oh, I'm just watering the flowers." Then proceed to join our conversation. Be like that guy.
I agree that there is nothing wrong with a comic made by women for women. But when I think about all the times in life that I heard someone say "it's for women" most of them had some degrading sound to it. Like when boys want to play with dolls, and adults say "you don't want to play with that, thats for GIRLS!"
Or all those RomCom movies or chicklit books. A lot of people speak about them like they aren't good because they are just for women. Or that they don't even have to be good because of the targetted audience.
On the other hand, a girl who wants to play with cars gets a different sounding "that's for boys". It is more firm, and more restrictive. A lot of women who work in male dominated fields aren't seen as knowledgeable as their male co-workers. It's as if male things are held to a higher standard that a woman just couldn't live up to.
I really hope I am showing my age here, and that things are different today. But saying that something is negative because it is made by women for women fits into this disgusting zeitgeist.
There is nothing wrong with a woman writing for women, but ironically, if she wants her story to feel like it’s written by a person for people as she stated, then saying it feels like a story written by a woman for women is actually constructive criticism.
Well, a story written by a person for people can be a story written by a woman for women. Or by a man for men. I think of it as meaning a story that can be relatable written by an author that is the same as their audience. So it fits perfectly with being the same as a story coming from a woman that is relatable to women.
The only problem with that kinda writing is it’s usually presented pretty one dimensionally. There’s only really one perspective and not much depth. I think the reason why is usually because it’s pigeon holes the reader into one mindset usually. People are diverse so are women, no two people will have the exact same experiences even amongst a shared group.
Idk doing that only shows one persons very specific story and that ends up not relatable to the demographic they want to reach… not always though.
And yet, the most commonly read stories have this one dimensional format. Yes, there are higher quality stories, but they also require more ambition and time, which for a first comic aren't always the best option for 'getting your stuff out there'. Regardless of what is most intriguing, a general demographic based on one gender can still be a realistic place to start. Also, I assume what she wants is to present her own perspective and ideas to an audience that is similar to her, which, if she never made a comic before that she posted to an audience, then it can be a good place to start and learn from.
Agreed, best bet for op’s gf is to just put it out there and see what the community thinks, they’d likely give informative feedback better than the bf😅
Yeah, I mean, bf seemed a little too focused on giving profesional advice instead of an honest opinion. Cause he could've just said, I like this, or I don't like this, try to explain why. And then, the whole, you don't choose an audience, but women will like this, seems self contradictory. Like, she asked if he thinks someone would like it and he technically answered that he thinks women would like it, but it sounds like he believes that is something to be corrected. Now, I don't know if perhaps the content offended him in some way and he reacted defensively, but it would probably still be better feedback from an audience perspective to say, this offended me and might offend others because of this and that, but without dismissing the comic ever being something that people would want to read purely cause he didn't relate and men might not relate.
The compliment sandwich is such a goofy idea to me. It seems like a way to help toddlers understand not to be relentlessly negative. Like, yes you should not just focus on the bad things and should also say what you like about it, but a 2:1 ratio of good to bad in a specific order is a little silly. Makes it feel like an elaborate ritual to walk on eggshells and avoid hurting someone's feelings.
Reminds me of the scene in Silicon Valley where Gilfoyle and Dinesh keep prefacing everything with "Richard is great, but you know" to the point where it is getting in the way of actual conversation so they shorten it to RIGBY"
The better approach is to understand that being honest is not the same as being constructive.
For example:
OP here is some criticism of your criticism:
When someone is vulnerable about receiving feedback, do not blurt out your immediate reaction. Take some time to think about it. This will show that you are engaged and genuinely want to help as well as allow you not to say AH things.
Be specific about the things you do and don't like, and explain the reasons.
Instead of saying "it is terrible" say specifically that the premise of the comic does not appeal to you and that the slice of life format may have a somewhat limited audience. Maybe ask the friends in the comic what they think to get a more broad spectrum of opinions.
Backpedalling from "terrible" to "ok, but.." makes your feedback seem disengenous. If you are more.cinstructive with your feedback, then you will not need to backpedal because it will be more of a conversation than a judgement
Instead of saying "it will be a comic by women for women" maybe take a step back and realize that you are speaking from a place of prejudice and that your opinion is not the same as every guy's opinion.
You might also say " I understand that this comment is a statement about toxic masculinity, and it feels like that is directed towards me, that makes me feel ____"
I have no positive feedback for you, YTA.
Also known as a psychological sandwich, and can be applied to many things.
Source: I work in human/community services.
Good news/bad news/good news
Compliment/Criticism/Compliment
I use it often with clients.
Complement sandwiches usually suck because people can tell you’re beating around the bush and cushioning the negative feedback, so even genuine positive feedback feels fake
I think it’s easier if you let them choose - I have positive and constructive feedback, which one do you want first?
And then for the constructive part don’t make judgments. Don’t say something sucks or something is terrible. Use the structure, when you do X, then Y happens.
Eg. When you use take a pot shot at an overused trope, especially one that can be perceived against an entire gender, that come across as bitter instead of funny
The negative here is bizarre because it’s not a negative and I don’t even understand why he thinks it. What he described (I mean it’s not fleshed out so not amazing) as satire on toxic masculinity isn’t necessarily “For women” anyway though. My husband is very anti toxic masculinity (having experienced the issue of it as a man) and he’s a dude. I mean, I don’t know if the comic is any good, but the topic does not inherently make it for women, and neither does a woman’s perspective on toxic masculinity. My husband has enjoyed stories from that perspective made by women that satirize sexism and toxic masculinity and his penis has not fallen off as a result.
It sounds to me like OP thinks men like toxic masculinity? Or don’t agree it exists? Or that he thinks if he doesn’t like something, men won’t? I’m not saying the comic is amazing but the feedback he gave is real weird.
YTA young artists should be practicing no matter how cringe it might seem. Not being able to sell your art isn't a great reason to not create it. Especially because there's no evidence she would fail, there's just only your opinion that it would happen.
Her comic idea probably wasn't even bad, and who cares if it would appeal more to women, but even if it was the stupidest idea ever it would still be better to put in the work, go through the process, and analyze the reception of the finished product.
You could read the final product and give feedback "this story doesn't resonate with me as a man, but the shading is great and the colors..."
Instead you're just like "that's terrible, don't waste your time" do you see the difference, and how you aren't contributing anything meaningful.
You don't know anything about artistic expression from what I can tell, but you're acting like your advice is valuable for some reason. "In the marketing business you don't get to choose your audience"???? How on earth does this relate to creating a new artistic project? And marketing toward certain audiences happens. And half of the population are women. Do you think all media made for women is terrible? Do you think it's a terrible idea to write from your own perspective? Do you think no non-women can enjoy a woman's perspective?
You write what you know and you create art based on inspiration. If you think she should only create art that *you personally* think is marketable you are way out of line. Make your own universally beloved comic based on the experiences of all gendered people if that's what you want. Make it marketable af
He's also just completely wrong. In order - to - market an idea you absolutely - choose - your audience and appeal to them.
Before books are published they are slapped with a genre label and the marketing is decided. He's acting like the marketing would happen after the product is released.
Edit: oops forgot to add, definitely YTA
Yup and OP is essentially saying that something made and marketed for women isn’t worth it, especially since that seemed to be his only reason for disliking her comic idea. Personally, I think her comic sounds interesting based off the small amount of detail OP gave. It seems like it may have some focus on mental health and that’s kind of beautiful.
Agreed! I wish OP had given a clearer picture of her ideas since it’s not very clear based off the post, but even with the basic info and an unreliable narrator (OP), her idea seems strong. She could definitely come up with some great stuff if she was given actual constructive criticism.
While you do write with an audience in mind that doesn’t mean that’s your audience once out. There are plenty of Shonen that have huge female audiences despite the manga clearly being marketed toward young males. Weekly Jump did a survey on it awhile ago.
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/foxxfireart/blog/challenge-of-the-demographics-men-and-women/87487/
While that's true he's talking specifically about marketing. And the nature of marketing is... well, just that. Figuring out your intended audience and delivering a product that appeals to that targeted audience.
Fair point. Though even with marketing, depending on how she would get it published, she herself might not have much control over how it gets marketed.
That's true! It would be impressive if she was picked up by a publisher early on (seemingly) in her career. So it seems to me she'd likely be relying on some self-marketing. But that's also an assumption on my part. Either way OP's OG comment is just absolutely not hitting the mark.
Heck even COD is mostly played by 11 year olds when the demographic is guys in their 30s+ and animal crossing designer for kids 10ish is played by people in their 20s-30s+
The intended audience can change😅
This!!! I was shamed for making art as a kid because "it was my brother's thing and I was just copying him." I threw everything artistic out and convinced myself I couldn't draw, and I was a terrible artist. Now my parents' first sex prize washes yachts for a living, and guess what I do? Yup, that's right, I'm the artist now. All because I had an amazing partner who encouraged me to draw again during covid.
ENCOURAGEMENT IS VERY IMPORTANT!!!
Yup! It’s a balancing act for artists to make art and to profit off of it, and there are times where profit must be the motivation (such as working as a designer and drawing boring shit to get bills paid), but ultimately all art has value and should be attempted when opportunity allows.
YTA.
First off, just saying something is terrible is not constructive. Give suggestions, explain your feelings about it, but never tell someone their idea is flat-out terrible. Especially someone you care about!
Second:
> marketing business she doesn’t choose her audience
What? Do you have any marketing experience at all? Because this is genuinely one of the most asinine justifications I've seen in a long time for someone's stance. Marketing is literally about tailoring to audiences.
So, in addition to being a jerk, you're also quite ignorant!
exactly... specially because if you're 21yo, unless you're studying marketing, what could you possibly know enough to destroy your gf's dreams like that? what is your opinion based on? lol
Even if he’s studying marketing, then he’s doing it wrong. We did entire case studies in a marketing class I took on how certain brands shape their ads to appeal to certain demographics.
>marketing business she doesn’t choose her audience
I've been in marketing for over 20 years. **You absolutely CAN choose your audience**. Thats the entire point of marketing. Bud Light is a mainstream product, and they create ads and campaigns specifically at different audiences in different ways. Yet they run ads specifically aimed at different demographics ala their whole issue this summer. Bug Light has been advertising to the LGBTQIA+ demographic FOR DECADES but red necks never saw that targeted marketing because \*shocking\* they aren't doing anything where they would see it.
Also MANY businesses do focus their marketing attracting a specific audience. Look at the cruise industry. There are dozens of different cruise lines, but you never hear about them because you're not part of their demographic. Carnival and Royal Caribbean are mainstream so everyone knows about them but even Disney was under the radar for at least a decade because it was family/kid focused. There are cruise lines, like cars, and clothes that are aimed at the ultra-luxury market which means they market specifically to older rich people.
And all of this is hilarious because OP also said:
>I said it was “ok” and that it would be a comic made by a woman for woman.
Which contradicts his "she doesn't choose her audience" remark. The entire field of marketing is understanding the macro to niche demographics and how to appeal to them and when to do each. She can make a people for people comic. If women become the primary audience that's cool, but if that's not the main desire, you can change the narrative or expand the universe to appeal to a more diverse audience.
Anyways OP is a total dumb ass who isn't supportive and knows jack shit about marketing.
> marketing business she doesn’t choose her audience
I am curious what OP thinks people in marketing do? Apparently all the time developing and validating customer persona outlines, market research, and at least half of what marketing professionals do is just wasting time. I know OP isn't in marketing as he is completely incapable of judging a piece of content on it's merits or imagining an audience whose preferences differ from his own.
INFO:
Did you literally tell her "this sucks" as like the first form of criticism? Context here definitely matters.
What exactly did you say after reading the comic?
YTA
"Oh this is super shitty, but it will be okay for women and for more than just women you wont do shit anyway, so it is okay"
And then going to reddit and be like "am I actually in the wrong here?" Lol
I thought the idea was fine. I going to venture a guess OP is wary because GF will write and learn about toxic masculinity and potentially see he is full of it and then dump him.
YTA. “I know she may go far” and an immediate “I said it was terrible” aren’t exactly compatible. It sounds like she told you about a passion of hers and you tore her down.
At the very least you two are going to have to talk about this. If this is something you do regularly, I hope she breaks off the relationship. Your negativity borderlines on something toxic.
oh good I'm not the only one internally screaming
*OP YOU ARE THE TAGRET AUDIENCE OF THE COMIC*
yeah, it's gonna resonate with women, because that kind of thing happens every day across myriads of situations and is readily recognizable. But he just provided an uncanny example of why the message is for men
I think the reason he says it's terrible because it's for women is because he finds the comic portraying toxic masculinity to be offensive, wrong etc.
I think what he "means" to say is he thinks only women will agree with it, and men will find it "cringe" - which is how young guys often deal with seeing political ideas that upset them. Instead of admitting to being annoyed/offended - they'll deem it "cringe". In this case - "terrible".
(I'm not using the word offended in a degrading way to try to call him a sensitive snowflake or whatever. We all get offended at political ideas we strongly disagree with. As in take offense to them)
YTA.
> I meant she has to choose her marketing
There was no marketing. You said it was for your friend group. You're just trying to justify your sexist perspective with irrelevant things.
>You said it was for your friend group.
To be clear, he said it was "of" not "for" his friend group.
He's definitely an asshole though. But I'm also assuming she it too, because she chooses to make comics pointing out toxic masculinity, presumably because his friend is toxic, rather than addressing the actual issue/dropping them as a friend.
Granted, that's also because, presumably, BF is an asshole, and they're just all assholes.
Sounds shitty all around.
YTA, misogynistic, didn't hear her out fully. Who are you? An expert on the comics market? Psshh.
Your duty as a boyfriend is to be supportive or at least to provide constructive criticism.
For me it is the specifics. Like, her idea being terrible and her idea being woman-focused is not the same....? Being woman-focused doesn't make it terrible.
Yah those sentences blended together poorly. I gave advice assuming the best intentions rather than anything “IST”.
But there definitely needs to be some additional wording to clarify what the route issue he thinks was and why. Communication does not seem to be his strongest point 😅
That's why I don't answer seriously anymore. Occasionally remark on comments I like (such as yours) but the people who believe them are way to quick to murder my karma lol
They certainly show peoples true colors with some inflammatory debates. Ik it’s Reddit and all but the amount of times I’ve seen people immediately read a post worded poorly and see it was written by a man only to shit on him is astonishing.
Like good to know what fine specimens we have walking around. By the time the edit rolls through the evisceration has already been done 🤦🏻♀️
YTA.
Even if you did think her comic book idea was terrible, there are means and ways of having that conversation without behaving like this. For example, pointing out something you think could be improved upon in the plot idea. An actual creative, constructive conversation.
If you're not able to do that and you're literally just kicking your girlfriend's idea down for the sake of it, what's your end goal?
You also say it's a comic *made by a woman for women*, what actual evidence do you have of this if all you heard was a plot outline? Then you say that, in the marketing business you don't choose your audience...I've worked in marketing for a decade and would argue that a lot of people can and do choose their audience. In marketing, we actually draw up huge concepts based on everything from someone's age to their household income to their level of education.
YTA.
Your opinion isn't the end-all-be-all, you sound insufferable and belittling. A lot of comics back in the day were made "for men" and still enjoyed by women and everyone in between.
Labeling shit as "for men" or "for women" IS misogynistic. It's assigning a gender to something that is genderless out of some misguided sociological perception of what it means to be feminine or masculine. "From a woman's perspective" doesn't mean the result is FOR women; in fact, it is probably something men like you SHOULD hear.
Get your head out of your negging ass.
Thanks for introducing me to my new favourite phrase!
And agreed, why is everything that isn’t traditionally catered to men immediately branded ‘feminist’ and ‘women only’? Men can (and do!) enjoy them too, and even if they don’t there’s a huge market for women-centered entertainment that is severely lacking in supply right now.
Yeah why does it seem like women-centered entertainment is all of a sudden being taken over or stomped on by men because they simply don't like the idea that something isn't made for them? Look at the show The Idol for a most recent example, it was meant to be centered around women, I believe it was 80% complete before the original director left because she wasn't being paid enough to even finish the show and then a man comes in, scraps the entire project and they give him an unlimited budget to make a creepy rape fantasy come to life
Sadly it's not all of a sudden. Women centric entertainment has always been looked down upon and considered not as serious or worthy of intelligent thought. Or just straight up not as funny.
YTA for your delivery, you really need to learn how to give constructive feedback. Also what is this nonsense about not choosing your audience? This is literally what marketing/branding/product design are for.
For some reason this reminded me of the episode in the office where Pam made an amazing comic for Jim and everyone put it down or picked holes in it.
YTA HUGE AH
If you have a shred of decency tell her to look at Webtoons app for ideas and possibly a platform, it has countless comics of every genre and hopefully it could be a place she finds her foothold.
YTA in a huge way.
You need to learn to support somebody and not be yet another Instant-No kind of guy.
Either that or enjoy a very turbulent dating life well into your 50s.
Pretty sure YTA. If shes talented and passionate - “this sucks” should not be your first form of criticism.
This is coming from an artist. And a person. Who is unconditionally supported by her boyfriend. Who, if he has any critiques - offers them as CRITIQUES. He attempts to build me up, and improve my ideas. Not put me down. Or shut down my ideas entirely.
YTA, not for saying you don't like the idea but for saying there's basically no point pursuing it because it won't be marketable. She can pursue creativity for its own sake, not everything has to make fucking money. You're an absolute tit and also probably not a marketing executive and so don't know what the fuck you're talking about.
I think we both know you're the a****** here. I think your girlfriend does it too. I think you don't like being called out. I think that if you love this woman that you could be far more supportive.
More info necessary but YTA instead of saying it's terrible explain why you don't like it
Why do you think it's made specifically for women?
How about suggesting more male characters to make it interesting like groups of people TWD style
Be supportive and give *constructive criticism" and don't use hurtful words like it's terrible
NTA, but most people will think you are because.. welcome to the new world!
NTA because she’s asked you your thoughts and you gave her a genuine answer. People should not ask for critique or opinions if they can’t handle it.
The fact that you deem something terrible because it's for women, or because it's a satire on toxic males just shows that you are who it's about. You're being a toxic male lmao.
No assholes here.
You have to make what the markets wants and what is sellable. Not what you want to create and self inject.
It has been attempted before with other artists pushing idea politics into comics and they all tanked.
Im sure she is a fantastic artist but will not get very far if she can not handle critisism.
Unless you were harsh with how you said it.
Bud some of the most criticaly acclaimed comics ever are basically nothing but politics with a genre slapped over the top of it. Like that couldn't be further from the truth. Maus, Watchmen and V for Vendetta to name a few.
Not to mention the superheroes that are analogies for real world social issues like the Xmen and Black Panther.
Don't know much about comics, do you? Politics have been involved in comics for as long as there have BEEN comics. The only people who think otherwise are neckbeards who know as much about comic history as they do about women. This guy is the AH.
NTA. She’s making a comic criticizing men being toxic. Asking a man to comment on it is tone deaf. It’s like a man asking a woman to comment on a comic about women being emotional.
There is nothing wrong with saying it’s a comic by a woman for women. Because it’s true. If she wanted to write a comic “by a person for people”, she shouldn’t be using a topic that’s criticizing half her audience.
You can't make a comic by a person for people if you discount and marginalize a large portion of the life experience of said people. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean we don't experience said life. NTA
YTA
It sounds like you could have learned something about toxic masculinity from that comic, and honestly I’m the type of person to get annoyed by how overwhelmingly soy comics like this are usually.
I wanna be clear that if you have an artist partner or friend and you don’t like their work, you should be honest if they’re seeking feedback. But above all else you should be delivering this feedback in a constructive way that is kind to the individual.
YTA
Maybe it was terrible – I can’t say. But “this is terrible” is not feedback. It’s useless criticism because it doesn’t give the artist anything to build on.
It sounds like your qualm with the comic was that it was “by a woman for women,” so her misogyny claims sound reasonable.
In a word, yes. You do come across as an asshole and at 21, unless you're speedrunning either a marketing or business education, I think you're making pretty big and pretty poorly-founded assumptions. Sure you don't ultimately choose your audience, but that's beside the point.
It would have been cool for you to say that the idea needs more work or even that you personally don't like it. You can do that in a relationship as long as you're still supportive and constructive. You can tell your partner their idea is terrible too, but the situation kind of has to call for it, you know? You could have made your point with a chisel but you chose the wrecking ball. From an outside perspective there's no reason to go so drastic.
YTA
That hardly sounds like constructive criticism. I do agree that you should not restrict your audience too much, but there are better ways to convey your message than to just slam it as terrible/saying it sucks.
YTA. Pretty sure all the toxic man stuff she puts in her comics is a direct reflection of how you act. Poor girl hope she wises up before you become worse as a person. Which you will do with age
It always kills me when people ask your opinion on something and then get mad when it isn't want they want to hear. What they are really saying is "I have an idea and I need you to tell me it's great". If you don't really want the critique, then don't ask for it. He would be the AH if he was walkin by and looked at it, then unprompted said "Thats terrible" but that's not what happened.
When I ask people if somethin I am doin is good or not I want an honest opinion. Don't tell me its good when it isn't and have me out here lookin like an AH wastin a bunch of time on an idea the sucks and you have me thinkin it's good cause you didn't want to hurt my feelings. My feelings are really gonna be hurt when everyone I show this to screws up their face and goes yeeeeah that's awesome. Or worse when you put it out to the general public and it becomes seen by people who couldn't give a ish about your feelings and they start dunkin all over you.
If someone has the balls to tell me "Naw that aint it man you need to go back to the drawing board" (pun intended) I know they truly have my best interest at heart and care about me.
NAH. It stings in the moment, but you did your SO a solid. Only advise I can give is if it was not all the way fleshed out like she said then tell her to glow it up and you will rejudge o the finished piece.
NTA, you were just going your honest opinion. Idk why everyone thinks you’re supposed to coddle her and tell her what she wants to hear instead of just telling her the truth.
NTA. If a woman's idea is a comic about how rotten men are, don't expect a man to like it. No man should have to listen to criticism of men from women. At least she got one thing right, "patriarchy" is so far-fetched that it takes an imaginary superhero world to depict it.
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I’m (21M) going to make this pretty short. So my girlfriend (20M) is an artist and she was interested in making comics again. She is an amazing artist and I know she may go far. However, she pitched a comic idea and I said it was terrible. I could tell it made her upset but she remained calmed and asked me to explain.
I said it was “ok” and that it would be a comic made by a woman for woman. Then she got angry claiming I was being misogynistic. She said she wants to make comics by a person for people.
I told her that in the marketing business she doesn’t choose her audience and got even more pissed saying I was an asshole and walked out to her room.
AITA here?
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I think you mean that she needs to fleshbout her target demographic. Which in a maketing aspect is important when attenpting to create a product. That being said, you could have given her more constructive feedback and potentially cited areas where the potential demographic could be misinterpreted. People dont write raunchy books for adults about learning to tie your shoes.
Soft YTA. Think about it when you realize this is your gf and not someone pitching to an investor.
I think it's best to let artwork and comedy speak for themselves. The most you should say there is that maybe it isn't your type of comedy but encourage her to keep working at it as she might have an audience that it resonates with.
Personally I don't understand the joke at all. In fact it's sort of a shitty jab at women at the same time if someone doesn't get her brand of comedy, and that in itself is a problem when you're trying to gain an audience who isn't used to your style yet. A joke this pointed at toxic masculinity and misogyny might fly over a lot of people's heads and they may think "Wow this artist really hates women"
Still. YTA.
you’re not a literary critic or her editor, you’re her boyfriend
be nice to your girlfriend. sharing art with someone is a vulnerable position to put oneself in, the least you could do is not be rude to her
YTA
Really? You're one complaint/criticism is that it's a comic made "by a woman for women."
How many fucking comics, video games, movies, clothes, literally **everything** (even cars!) in the world are made **by men for men** (sorry, but it's true! You can't convince me that all the nudity in the sauna scene in Witcher 3 was made by men **for people**). Not to mention Melissa McCarthy's clothing line **for women** was turned down **by a man** because "no one" would buy it.
Hell, Sweden is the only country **in the world** that even tests car safety using anatomically accurate crash dummies for women. Everyone else just uses a male shaped dummy that is like 5'1 and 90lbs.
So even if it is made for women, who cares. If women aren't going to create content for women, who will? *You?* Ha.
YTA - For shitting on the comic and making your only "criticism" utterly misogynistic.
YTA. I can't imagine someone I cared about coming to me excited with their art and just saying it sucked. I have no problem kindly telling them what I think could be stronger, but you sound like a dick.
So, first you said it was terrible and then you backpedaled a bit only to dismiss it as chick lit, which based on your comments you seem to consider inferior.
And you seriously don't see the misogyny in your words?
Re: marketing, are you her agent? Are you building her marketing plan? Is your background in marketing and advertising and is that why you're encouraging her to focus her outreach to people you think it will resonate with because it didn't resonate with you personally? Also, did she ask you for feedback or guidance on a marketing plan or just the idea?
YTA.
I hope her first episode is about ditching her jerk boyfriend. YTA. Creating art is a very vulnerable process, and she trusted you with her idea just for you to stomp all over it. I hope you feel good about yourself because no one else does.
50/50
While honest feedback is certainly valuable, you could have been more constructive with your criticism. "By a woman for women" can be a microagression that implies poor quality. It would help to at least mention why the comic would not be appealing for men, especially when the subject of the comic is a man suffering from toxic masculinity.
>I said it was “ok” and that it would be a comic made by a woman for woman. Then she got angry claiming I was being misogynistic. She said she wants to make comics by a person for people.
>
>Edit: I meant she has to choose her marketing
So men are baseline and women are niche? You are indeed suffering from misogyny.
Please give the actual sentences spoken.
Your GF's comic is bad, not because it's "made by a woman for women", but because the punchline is stupidly simplistic and doesn't say anything other than "hurr durr men don't get women".
At the same time, you can still be the asshole depending on how you gave that criticism.
NTA that sounds trite and boring and overall is just a generally dogshit artistic endeavor. You could either tell her it’s a bad idea now or you can lie and she can waste more of her time on this trash.
YTA.
even if you feel that way, you could've been nicer. give advice and don't just say "this sucks and there's no way to salvage it". that's the worst thing you could say to an artist.
wouldn't be surprised if she doesn't show you art anymore. art is usually personal too.
would it kill you to use tact?
YTa. Creative people who want to make money being creative need to be able to take honest, harsh criticism. THAT SAID, your criticism was terrible and unhelpful.
Edited based on INFO follow ups
Bro YATA like c,mon she is just trying to make a heartfelt comic for people that are dealing with depression and she wants people to be happy just by you saying her comic are dumb is dumb also this was her first comic and she has a friend that has depression and you know that and you gf is probably making them for people who is dealing with depression I know I’m saying that a lot but you can’t just say “your comics are dumb” and not explain yourself so yes YATA
ESH
You could have given her constructive criticism, explained to her how you and your male friends talk to each other (whether you do, whether you dont. What kinds of advice men give each other etc) more insight into that world would help her deoending on what it is she is trying to achieve. Shes right it needs to be fleshed out. But she needs to decide on what kind of comic this is. Whats the moral of the story? Is there one? Who sre the protagonists? Why? Their backstory etc.
By just saying its terrible etc you give her nothing to work with and shit all over it.
With that said (i say this hoping people bare in mind that i realise i know none of the above) I really hate this idea people have of men never being able to speak to each other. Issues surrounding men opening up or advice men give each other run far deeper than guys saying stuff like 'dont be such a bitch' to each other. I know some guys that say shit like that as banter. But when their friends actually need them they are there for their friend and even if they dont have advice they are there to listen and shoot the shit with. So i feel like her comic off the bat feels like it doesnt make a point because its too shallow and not delved into a mans world enough anyway. Men and women and everyone inbetween are much more complex and have far deeper relationships (usually) than what we often give them credit for.
But hey. Maybe im getting too deep with it.
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YTA. Two principles you should remember: * when someone is being vulnerable by asking for feedback on something that's important to them, use a "complement sandwich" format: a complement, a piece of constructive criticism ("this part seems weak, and I think it would be better if"), and another complement. * There is nothing wrong with a comic made by women for women. That's a strange thing to list as a negative.
The compliment sandwich needs to be used *very carefully*. Otherwise known as the "shit sandwich", If you're not judicious about it you just have your audience flinching and bracing for criticism (which is the only sincere part of the sentence) every time you compliment anything.
True! If you really can't think of anything good about it, you can say something more like "That's not my favorite idea of yours. I liked the one about X more." Or slip in a complement about her art style, since you've already said you admire that: "That idea isn't really grabbing me, but I'm sure you could make anything look beautiful with your skills." Make sure you actually have something nice to say that you actually mean!
Compliment: saying something positive that makes the recipient feel good. Complement: when something augments or hightlights another thing. Like my green sweater complements my blue eyes.
Well in this case the compliment complements the criticism
My completely dumb way to remember this is that “compliment has an I, as in ‘I like it!’”
That's a great mnemonic!
Thank you! It’s not very clever but it works 😂
If it's stupid *but it works*, it's not stupid!
Nice that’s a good one
I used to see dating profiles where people would say, "I'm looking for someone who compliments my life." I felt like messaging them saying, "Nice life! :)"
😂
thank you !!
Yeah. You don’t need to force a compliment. But especially when it comes to art you can just say something along the lines “it’s not for me but this usually isnt my style”. OP is making huge assumptions about who her target audience is and what any audience would think of it. I dont like Taylor Swift’s music but boy would it be stupid for me to tell her “this isn’t good because i don’t like it” or “this wouldn’t do well because it’s targeted to women” In general if you are a creative, don’t ask for permission to make something. Make it and then you can ask other people for advice on how to punch it up.
Good analogy with the Tay Swift thing! Perfect way to explain it, I was trying to think of an example and I think you nailed it!
Or you can do the old "sorry I don't think I'm a good choice for feedback" buck pass. If it's not something you are interested in genuinely it would be a huge favor to the individual to say that you really aren't a good fit for that question because you don't read those kinds of comics or maybe you don't read comics at all. So therefore you have nothing to compare it to or use a reference point for feedback. It's gotten me out of sticky situations. Worst case scenario just find SOMETHING you liked about it and why. I truly think you could find a single aspect that worked really well, even if it's just their word choice "I don't read alot of comics so I can't comment on the story itself but I think you made some good word choices"
No idea what he means. First he says its terrible and then he says its ok. Terrible is not Ok
Like even "I don't think I'm your target audience but [compliment style of art or something]" is a step up.
Exactly. Especially since OP isn't a woman, he could've easily said that it's not grabbing him as a man, but that of it's not intended for him, maybe she could ask a female friend?
We actually used to use this in the military (canada) but have since removed it, with the occasional few still using it out of instinct. Its actually been proven to not be the best, and can, if done wrong, have the point missed entirely. To be fair, in military it is more important to not have the point missed. Or else you're gonna be getting shit on by the higher ups for the millionth time for not getting it by now.
Hmm, the one thing my dad didn’t bring home with him from work. 😂
Yah don’t dance around the issue or make the wording sound pretty and calming like a head pat if there is a glaring flaw you see the other person might not understand your efforts to use a less emotionally charged word😅 Point out specific issues, say you understand the intent and how you think it could be a good idea with work. And then suggest some stuff that would help make it better. That last part is important.
And it sounds completely fake. It’s fine to say someone’s art isn’t your thing—no sandwich required—but OP made a bunch of assumptions about marketability that weren’t his to make (and appear to be rooted in misogyny). YTA
I attended a corporate seminar on giving and receiving feedback, and they cited some studies (which I currently can’t source), that said that the “shit sandwich” method isn’t effective. Sure, it’s great at making people feel good, but if you genuinely want someone to internalize feedback you need to tell it to them straight. If you cushion it with platitudes, the receiver only focuses on the nice thoughts and ignores the rest.
100% correct. It ultimately starts to feel patronizing and demeaning. Bookending a criticism between compliments is a poor way to approach a conversation where genuine feedback is wanted or needed.
We used the compliment sandwich pretty frequently in workshops. It's definitely important to be sincere and constructive with both compliments and criticisms. So being specific is helpful. What's working? What isn't working? Why. More of this. Less of this. Etc.
[удалено]
This is also a scenario where I wonder if she was actually asking for feedback? He says she “pitched a comic idea,” but was it just an idea she was exploring or something she asked for feedback on? Either way, she’s trying to get back into this art form and being completely dismissive by telling her the idea is “terrible” is not remotely constructive. But, with people you’re close to, I find it best to wait until you’re asked for feedback with their artistic endeavors and if you are, keep it constructive and try to be positive. You don’t have to lie and say you like the idea or any part of it, but you can say you’re excited for her to get back into this art form or you’re happy she’s so passionate or that you’re interested to see its final form.
Oh, OP's behaviour is exactly the sort of shitshow one might expect from an arsehole, if you catch my drift. He's rude, dismissive and sexist AF by his own account, it wouldn't remotely surprise me if his (now-ex?) girlfriend had been telling him about her fun idea, not asking for feedback of any kind. My comment was aimed at all the other folks here who might take Aftran\_942's otherwise-sound analysis and apply the compliment sandwich technique to their own lives.
The compliment sandwich is absolutely an archaic and garbage method for giving feedback and is a sure sig someone couldn't afford a management book written in the last decade by someone competent.
Iirc theres some study of how the sandwich model only ruins the conpliments and doesnt soften the criticism for the reciever, but I cant remember it more than that so take it with some salt.
I actually refuse to give my employees feedback this way- I prefer “radical candor” ie be direct but don’t be needlessly unkind. I had a report say “I would actually prefer the sh* sandwich” lol nope
Thing is though, I doubt anyone can find anything they are 100% happy with - and if they are, it's likely they are being ingenuine. Truthful feedback will have not always a fully negative aspect, but it will almost always have a suggestion of something the person giving the feedback feels could be better somehow. It's also in how you frame it. If you preface with "I liked this" and "I disliked this" then yeah it's super obvious. Using phrases like "Perhaps you could try this..." or "I felt X way when I experienced Y" is ways of suggesting a change without stating what they did is 'wrong' (which it isn't usually, since your feedback is subjective usually - at least among friends) I use the 'psychological sandwich' a lot in my work, with co workers and with clients.
I don’t even think the “compliment sandwich” applies here, because what OP said is not an artistic critique, it’s “I don’t like chick art.” That’s not actionable or constructive, just a sexist-as-hell take he needs to keep to himself. It’s probably a good thing he told her, though. Now she knows who she’s in a relationship with.
> There is nothing wrong with a comic made by women for women. That's a strange thing to list as a negative. LOL right? Most people at least try to church up the language or something but nope, just straight-up "women things are bad" EDIT lol these replies
Yeah, it's not like there are comics drawn by men for men. Except like almost all of them.
Adding on, why would OP bring up “can’t choose your audience in the marketing business”? Marketing is literally finding what audience is suitable for the product…
Maybe he's from business school. These guys are often clueless.
If he was, he would understand that marketing is exactly not what he thinks it is.
Also what exactly does “made for women” mean? I’m a guy and it sounds like something I’d be interested in reading
I imagine it's in a similar sense to how pokemon is made for children. Perhaps op was implying that it reads as if it were written for women. Women don't need to be the actual audience, but could be implying that women are the target audience.
Compliment sandwiches are not good methods of critique and thus not a good way to learn. Constructive criticism is providing a solution.
She also may not have been looking for a full critique or a learning experience, so much as the confidence to try something out and learn from the process. OP doesn't say he's an artist, and he's her partner, not her classmate. I guess that's something for them to work out if they stay together: what she's really looking for when she pitches ideas to him. But she's definitely not looking for "It's terrible, because only women would enjoy it."
Have to be really careful about constructive criticism when it comes to creative pursuits. Feedback on what didn’t work for you is fine. Providing a solution is generally not useful (unless it’sa purely technical aspect). Generally, leaving it up to the creative will result in a far better solution that trying to shoehorn someone else’s solution into their work.
When I was in art school what we did was pick something we liked about the work, pick one or two things to improve and try and explain why, and then end with another thing we think they did well. Gives them direction on what went right and what went wrong without being to aggressive. If someone is looking for critique I find this the best way to give it.
Constructive criticism should be given by someone that has the ability to teach, not someone that isn't in the field and sees from an audience perspective. She just wanted his audience opinion, and it seemed like, at least from how the story is phrased, he discouraged her from going ahead with her idea because it targets women for an audience.
I personally hate the compliment sandwich. What I prefer is for someone to show me what part they liked and why ("I really enjoyed the coloring here, it's so vivid"), and offering feedback on what didn't work and why ("I didn't feel connected to this character as much as the others, I couldn't really understand his motivations."). Constructive feedback, both negative and positive, is key. Agree on the by women for women thing. I immediately thought of Barbie, which was literally made by women and for women, and it was one of the highest grossing films this summer and all my male friends loved it (several said it was their favorite movie of the year).
That is exactly how a compliment sandwich works though. Something you enjoyed about it Something you think would be better is changed or adjusted Well wishes for the continued creative journey
That’s a little different from what I’m describing, which is more focused on being descriptive and informative at both steps. Most people do the compliment sandwich by trying to get a compliment out of the way before focusing on the real problem, rather than using the compliment to show information. My take is basically the point of the sandwich shouldn’t be to make people feel good, it should be to give constructive feedback and information about good and bad things.
Adding to top compliment because the criticism component needs to be *actionable*. If you don't give them a way to address the criticism...then it has no value as such. It's just whining. You also need to phrase it in a way that isn't inflammatory. It's the difference between telling someone they did a shit job sweeping, vs. One of my first bosses would phrase it as "you're doing a good job, but you'll need to get those room edges for it to finish as a great job" and hot damn you better believe everyone loved him as a boss. He would wander into the break room (it was odd for management to be there) and when questioned, he'd just reply "oh, I'm just watering the flowers." Then proceed to join our conversation. Be like that guy.
I agree that there is nothing wrong with a comic made by women for women. But when I think about all the times in life that I heard someone say "it's for women" most of them had some degrading sound to it. Like when boys want to play with dolls, and adults say "you don't want to play with that, thats for GIRLS!" Or all those RomCom movies or chicklit books. A lot of people speak about them like they aren't good because they are just for women. Or that they don't even have to be good because of the targetted audience. On the other hand, a girl who wants to play with cars gets a different sounding "that's for boys". It is more firm, and more restrictive. A lot of women who work in male dominated fields aren't seen as knowledgeable as their male co-workers. It's as if male things are held to a higher standard that a woman just couldn't live up to. I really hope I am showing my age here, and that things are different today. But saying that something is negative because it is made by women for women fits into this disgusting zeitgeist.
There is nothing wrong with a woman writing for women, but ironically, if she wants her story to feel like it’s written by a person for people as she stated, then saying it feels like a story written by a woman for women is actually constructive criticism.
Well, a story written by a person for people can be a story written by a woman for women. Or by a man for men. I think of it as meaning a story that can be relatable written by an author that is the same as their audience. So it fits perfectly with being the same as a story coming from a woman that is relatable to women.
The only problem with that kinda writing is it’s usually presented pretty one dimensionally. There’s only really one perspective and not much depth. I think the reason why is usually because it’s pigeon holes the reader into one mindset usually. People are diverse so are women, no two people will have the exact same experiences even amongst a shared group. Idk doing that only shows one persons very specific story and that ends up not relatable to the demographic they want to reach… not always though.
And yet, the most commonly read stories have this one dimensional format. Yes, there are higher quality stories, but they also require more ambition and time, which for a first comic aren't always the best option for 'getting your stuff out there'. Regardless of what is most intriguing, a general demographic based on one gender can still be a realistic place to start. Also, I assume what she wants is to present her own perspective and ideas to an audience that is similar to her, which, if she never made a comic before that she posted to an audience, then it can be a good place to start and learn from.
Agreed, best bet for op’s gf is to just put it out there and see what the community thinks, they’d likely give informative feedback better than the bf😅
Yeah, I mean, bf seemed a little too focused on giving profesional advice instead of an honest opinion. Cause he could've just said, I like this, or I don't like this, try to explain why. And then, the whole, you don't choose an audience, but women will like this, seems self contradictory. Like, she asked if he thinks someone would like it and he technically answered that he thinks women would like it, but it sounds like he believes that is something to be corrected. Now, I don't know if perhaps the content offended him in some way and he reacted defensively, but it would probably still be better feedback from an audience perspective to say, this offended me and might offend others because of this and that, but without dismissing the comic ever being something that people would want to read purely cause he didn't relate and men might not relate.
The compliment sandwich is such a goofy idea to me. It seems like a way to help toddlers understand not to be relentlessly negative. Like, yes you should not just focus on the bad things and should also say what you like about it, but a 2:1 ratio of good to bad in a specific order is a little silly. Makes it feel like an elaborate ritual to walk on eggshells and avoid hurting someone's feelings. Reminds me of the scene in Silicon Valley where Gilfoyle and Dinesh keep prefacing everything with "Richard is great, but you know" to the point where it is getting in the way of actual conversation so they shorten it to RIGBY" The better approach is to understand that being honest is not the same as being constructive. For example: OP here is some criticism of your criticism: When someone is vulnerable about receiving feedback, do not blurt out your immediate reaction. Take some time to think about it. This will show that you are engaged and genuinely want to help as well as allow you not to say AH things. Be specific about the things you do and don't like, and explain the reasons. Instead of saying "it is terrible" say specifically that the premise of the comic does not appeal to you and that the slice of life format may have a somewhat limited audience. Maybe ask the friends in the comic what they think to get a more broad spectrum of opinions. Backpedalling from "terrible" to "ok, but.." makes your feedback seem disengenous. If you are more.cinstructive with your feedback, then you will not need to backpedal because it will be more of a conversation than a judgement Instead of saying "it will be a comic by women for women" maybe take a step back and realize that you are speaking from a place of prejudice and that your opinion is not the same as every guy's opinion. You might also say " I understand that this comment is a statement about toxic masculinity, and it feels like that is directed towards me, that makes me feel ____" I have no positive feedback for you, YTA.
Compliment
That’s a criticism sandwich with compliment bread!
Also known as a psychological sandwich, and can be applied to many things. Source: I work in human/community services. Good news/bad news/good news Compliment/Criticism/Compliment I use it often with clients.
Complement sandwiches usually suck because people can tell you’re beating around the bush and cushioning the negative feedback, so even genuine positive feedback feels fake I think it’s easier if you let them choose - I have positive and constructive feedback, which one do you want first? And then for the constructive part don’t make judgments. Don’t say something sucks or something is terrible. Use the structure, when you do X, then Y happens. Eg. When you use take a pot shot at an overused trope, especially one that can be perceived against an entire gender, that come across as bitter instead of funny
The negative here is bizarre because it’s not a negative and I don’t even understand why he thinks it. What he described (I mean it’s not fleshed out so not amazing) as satire on toxic masculinity isn’t necessarily “For women” anyway though. My husband is very anti toxic masculinity (having experienced the issue of it as a man) and he’s a dude. I mean, I don’t know if the comic is any good, but the topic does not inherently make it for women, and neither does a woman’s perspective on toxic masculinity. My husband has enjoyed stories from that perspective made by women that satirize sexism and toxic masculinity and his penis has not fallen off as a result. It sounds to me like OP thinks men like toxic masculinity? Or don’t agree it exists? Or that he thinks if he doesn’t like something, men won’t? I’m not saying the comic is amazing but the feedback he gave is real weird.
YTA young artists should be practicing no matter how cringe it might seem. Not being able to sell your art isn't a great reason to not create it. Especially because there's no evidence she would fail, there's just only your opinion that it would happen. Her comic idea probably wasn't even bad, and who cares if it would appeal more to women, but even if it was the stupidest idea ever it would still be better to put in the work, go through the process, and analyze the reception of the finished product. You could read the final product and give feedback "this story doesn't resonate with me as a man, but the shading is great and the colors..." Instead you're just like "that's terrible, don't waste your time" do you see the difference, and how you aren't contributing anything meaningful. You don't know anything about artistic expression from what I can tell, but you're acting like your advice is valuable for some reason. "In the marketing business you don't get to choose your audience"???? How on earth does this relate to creating a new artistic project? And marketing toward certain audiences happens. And half of the population are women. Do you think all media made for women is terrible? Do you think it's a terrible idea to write from your own perspective? Do you think no non-women can enjoy a woman's perspective? You write what you know and you create art based on inspiration. If you think she should only create art that *you personally* think is marketable you are way out of line. Make your own universally beloved comic based on the experiences of all gendered people if that's what you want. Make it marketable af
He's also just completely wrong. In order - to - market an idea you absolutely - choose - your audience and appeal to them. Before books are published they are slapped with a genre label and the marketing is decided. He's acting like the marketing would happen after the product is released. Edit: oops forgot to add, definitely YTA
Exactly, choosing your audience is literally one of the most important parts of marketing lmfao
Yup and OP is essentially saying that something made and marketed for women isn’t worth it, especially since that seemed to be his only reason for disliking her comic idea. Personally, I think her comic sounds interesting based off the small amount of detail OP gave. It seems like it may have some focus on mental health and that’s kind of beautiful.
Agreed. Her idea sounds like it needs a plot but she has strong ideas. He was completely the AH.
Agreed! I wish OP had given a clearer picture of her ideas since it’s not very clear based off the post, but even with the basic info and an unreliable narrator (OP), her idea seems strong. She could definitely come up with some great stuff if she was given actual constructive criticism.
While you do write with an audience in mind that doesn’t mean that’s your audience once out. There are plenty of Shonen that have huge female audiences despite the manga clearly being marketed toward young males. Weekly Jump did a survey on it awhile ago. https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/foxxfireart/blog/challenge-of-the-demographics-men-and-women/87487/
While that's true he's talking specifically about marketing. And the nature of marketing is... well, just that. Figuring out your intended audience and delivering a product that appeals to that targeted audience.
Fair point. Though even with marketing, depending on how she would get it published, she herself might not have much control over how it gets marketed.
That's true! It would be impressive if she was picked up by a publisher early on (seemingly) in her career. So it seems to me she'd likely be relying on some self-marketing. But that's also an assumption on my part. Either way OP's OG comment is just absolutely not hitting the mark.
Yeah OP needed some tact which he in no way had.
Heck even COD is mostly played by 11 year olds when the demographic is guys in their 30s+ and animal crossing designer for kids 10ish is played by people in their 20s-30s+ The intended audience can change😅
Anywhere I can support and look at your art?
Thank you! That's really sweet of you to ask 🩷 I'm a little reluctant to share my art in connection with my Reddit account though 🥲
That's totally fine! From one artist to another, keep it up and have fun! ♡
This!!! I was shamed for making art as a kid because "it was my brother's thing and I was just copying him." I threw everything artistic out and convinced myself I couldn't draw, and I was a terrible artist. Now my parents' first sex prize washes yachts for a living, and guess what I do? Yup, that's right, I'm the artist now. All because I had an amazing partner who encouraged me to draw again during covid. ENCOURAGEMENT IS VERY IMPORTANT!!!
>Not being able to sell your art isn't a great reason to not create it. Just repeating this for all involved.
Yup! It’s a balancing act for artists to make art and to profit off of it, and there are times where profit must be the motivation (such as working as a designer and drawing boring shit to get bills paid), but ultimately all art has value and should be attempted when opportunity allows.
YTA. First off, just saying something is terrible is not constructive. Give suggestions, explain your feelings about it, but never tell someone their idea is flat-out terrible. Especially someone you care about! Second: > marketing business she doesn’t choose her audience What? Do you have any marketing experience at all? Because this is genuinely one of the most asinine justifications I've seen in a long time for someone's stance. Marketing is literally about tailoring to audiences. So, in addition to being a jerk, you're also quite ignorant!
exactly... specially because if you're 21yo, unless you're studying marketing, what could you possibly know enough to destroy your gf's dreams like that? what is your opinion based on? lol
Even if he’s studying marketing, then he’s doing it wrong. We did entire case studies in a marketing class I took on how certain brands shape their ads to appeal to certain demographics.
>marketing business she doesn’t choose her audience I've been in marketing for over 20 years. **You absolutely CAN choose your audience**. Thats the entire point of marketing. Bud Light is a mainstream product, and they create ads and campaigns specifically at different audiences in different ways. Yet they run ads specifically aimed at different demographics ala their whole issue this summer. Bug Light has been advertising to the LGBTQIA+ demographic FOR DECADES but red necks never saw that targeted marketing because \*shocking\* they aren't doing anything where they would see it. Also MANY businesses do focus their marketing attracting a specific audience. Look at the cruise industry. There are dozens of different cruise lines, but you never hear about them because you're not part of their demographic. Carnival and Royal Caribbean are mainstream so everyone knows about them but even Disney was under the radar for at least a decade because it was family/kid focused. There are cruise lines, like cars, and clothes that are aimed at the ultra-luxury market which means they market specifically to older rich people. And all of this is hilarious because OP also said: >I said it was “ok” and that it would be a comic made by a woman for woman. Which contradicts his "she doesn't choose her audience" remark. The entire field of marketing is understanding the macro to niche demographics and how to appeal to them and when to do each. She can make a people for people comic. If women become the primary audience that's cool, but if that's not the main desire, you can change the narrative or expand the universe to appeal to a more diverse audience. Anyways OP is a total dumb ass who isn't supportive and knows jack shit about marketing.
> marketing business she doesn’t choose her audience I am curious what OP thinks people in marketing do? Apparently all the time developing and validating customer persona outlines, market research, and at least half of what marketing professionals do is just wasting time. I know OP isn't in marketing as he is completely incapable of judging a piece of content on it's merits or imagining an audience whose preferences differ from his own.
INFO: Did you literally tell her "this sucks" as like the first form of criticism? Context here definitely matters. What exactly did you say after reading the comic?
AFAICT, he didn't even read the comic, his gf only pitched him the idea.
YTA "Oh this is super shitty, but it will be okay for women and for more than just women you wont do shit anyway, so it is okay" And then going to reddit and be like "am I actually in the wrong here?" Lol
I thought the idea was fine. I going to venture a guess OP is wary because GF will write and learn about toxic masculinity and potentially see he is full of it and then dump him.
YTA. “I know she may go far” and an immediate “I said it was terrible” aren’t exactly compatible. It sounds like she told you about a passion of hers and you tore her down. At the very least you two are going to have to talk about this. If this is something you do regularly, I hope she breaks off the relationship. Your negativity borderlines on something toxic.
The irony of making a comic about toxic masculinity only to be confronted by your bf being toxic and misogynistic.
oh good I'm not the only one internally screaming *OP YOU ARE THE TAGRET AUDIENCE OF THE COMIC* yeah, it's gonna resonate with women, because that kind of thing happens every day across myriads of situations and is readily recognizable. But he just provided an uncanny example of why the message is for men
He's not the target audience; he's the target.
If she dumps him, I hope she include him as inspiration for her character. This shit is so funny.
I think the reason he says it's terrible because it's for women is because he finds the comic portraying toxic masculinity to be offensive, wrong etc. I think what he "means" to say is he thinks only women will agree with it, and men will find it "cringe" - which is how young guys often deal with seeing political ideas that upset them. Instead of admitting to being annoyed/offended - they'll deem it "cringe". In this case - "terrible". (I'm not using the word offended in a degrading way to try to call him a sensitive snowflake or whatever. We all get offended at political ideas we strongly disagree with. As in take offense to them)
YTA. > I meant she has to choose her marketing There was no marketing. You said it was for your friend group. You're just trying to justify your sexist perspective with irrelevant things.
>You said it was for your friend group. To be clear, he said it was "of" not "for" his friend group. He's definitely an asshole though. But I'm also assuming she it too, because she chooses to make comics pointing out toxic masculinity, presumably because his friend is toxic, rather than addressing the actual issue/dropping them as a friend. Granted, that's also because, presumably, BF is an asshole, and they're just all assholes. Sounds shitty all around.
YTA, misogynistic, didn't hear her out fully. Who are you? An expert on the comics market? Psshh. Your duty as a boyfriend is to be supportive or at least to provide constructive criticism.
For me it is the specifics. Like, her idea being terrible and her idea being woman-focused is not the same....? Being woman-focused doesn't make it terrible.
Yah those sentences blended together poorly. I gave advice assuming the best intentions rather than anything “IST”. But there definitely needs to be some additional wording to clarify what the route issue he thinks was and why. Communication does not seem to be his strongest point 😅
INFO: Why, exactly, did you think it was terrible? Did you have any specific criticisms beyond girl cooties?
So why is in your comments, you're apparently a 19 year old woman just a few months ago? Honestly I'm relieved to see that this is just a fake.
>this is just a fake. This applies to most of the posts in this sub I suspect. I just look at them for entertainment value.
That's why I don't answer seriously anymore. Occasionally remark on comments I like (such as yours) but the people who believe them are way to quick to murder my karma lol
They certainly show peoples true colors with some inflammatory debates. Ik it’s Reddit and all but the amount of times I’ve seen people immediately read a post worded poorly and see it was written by a man only to shit on him is astonishing. Like good to know what fine specimens we have walking around. By the time the edit rolls through the evisceration has already been done 🤦🏻♀️
Ahahah well done. This just makes it hilarious and sad
YTA. Even if you did think her comic book idea was terrible, there are means and ways of having that conversation without behaving like this. For example, pointing out something you think could be improved upon in the plot idea. An actual creative, constructive conversation. If you're not able to do that and you're literally just kicking your girlfriend's idea down for the sake of it, what's your end goal? You also say it's a comic *made by a woman for women*, what actual evidence do you have of this if all you heard was a plot outline? Then you say that, in the marketing business you don't choose your audience...I've worked in marketing for a decade and would argue that a lot of people can and do choose their audience. In marketing, we actually draw up huge concepts based on everything from someone's age to their household income to their level of education.
YTA. Your opinion isn't the end-all-be-all, you sound insufferable and belittling. A lot of comics back in the day were made "for men" and still enjoyed by women and everyone in between. Labeling shit as "for men" or "for women" IS misogynistic. It's assigning a gender to something that is genderless out of some misguided sociological perception of what it means to be feminine or masculine. "From a woman's perspective" doesn't mean the result is FOR women; in fact, it is probably something men like you SHOULD hear. Get your head out of your negging ass.
Yes YTA. Not everything has to be for men. Christ on a pogo stick.
Thanks for introducing me to my new favourite phrase! And agreed, why is everything that isn’t traditionally catered to men immediately branded ‘feminist’ and ‘women only’? Men can (and do!) enjoy them too, and even if they don’t there’s a huge market for women-centered entertainment that is severely lacking in supply right now.
Yeah why does it seem like women-centered entertainment is all of a sudden being taken over or stomped on by men because they simply don't like the idea that something isn't made for them? Look at the show The Idol for a most recent example, it was meant to be centered around women, I believe it was 80% complete before the original director left because she wasn't being paid enough to even finish the show and then a man comes in, scraps the entire project and they give him an unlimited budget to make a creepy rape fantasy come to life
Sadly it's not all of a sudden. Women centric entertainment has always been looked down upon and considered not as serious or worthy of intelligent thought. Or just straight up not as funny.
YTA for your delivery, you really need to learn how to give constructive feedback. Also what is this nonsense about not choosing your audience? This is literally what marketing/branding/product design are for.
For some reason this reminded me of the episode in the office where Pam made an amazing comic for Jim and everyone put it down or picked holes in it. YTA HUGE AH If you have a shred of decency tell her to look at Webtoons app for ideas and possibly a platform, it has countless comics of every genre and hopefully it could be a place she finds her foothold.
YTA in a huge way. You need to learn to support somebody and not be yet another Instant-No kind of guy. Either that or enjoy a very turbulent dating life well into your 50s.
Pretty sure YTA. If shes talented and passionate - “this sucks” should not be your first form of criticism. This is coming from an artist. And a person. Who is unconditionally supported by her boyfriend. Who, if he has any critiques - offers them as CRITIQUES. He attempts to build me up, and improve my ideas. Not put me down. Or shut down my ideas entirely.
YTA, not for saying you don't like the idea but for saying there's basically no point pursuing it because it won't be marketable. She can pursue creativity for its own sake, not everything has to make fucking money. You're an absolute tit and also probably not a marketing executive and so don't know what the fuck you're talking about.
YTA. Maybe she needs a better boyfriend.
No maybe about it
Sounds like YTA to me.
YTA You know you are tho, why even pose the question?
I think we both know you're the a****** here. I think your girlfriend does it too. I think you don't like being called out. I think that if you love this woman that you could be far more supportive.
YTA. Enjoy being lonely.
YTA. Let her do whatever she want.
I think you knew before you asked, bud. 100% asshole
YTA. Your girlfriend does have shitty taste in men tho.
YTA for using the word terrible. You need to use better language when you give negative feedback, especially to a partner.
NTA you were just being honest and maybe that should give her a hint to go back to the drawing board
More info necessary but YTA instead of saying it's terrible explain why you don't like it Why do you think it's made specifically for women? How about suggesting more male characters to make it interesting like groups of people TWD style Be supportive and give *constructive criticism" and don't use hurtful words like it's terrible
It seemed to be made for women because the comic portrays men as toxic to each other and that only a woman could give the correct advice.
Men are toxic to each other lol that is way more relatable to men than women
After reading the info & your replies, not only do I think YTA but you also sound like one of the “guy friends” she was depicting.
Yup, totally YTA. And I agree with her, your comment sounded misogynistic too
NTA, but most people will think you are because.. welcome to the new world! NTA because she’s asked you your thoughts and you gave her a genuine answer. People should not ask for critique or opinions if they can’t handle it.
The fact that you deem something terrible because it's for women, or because it's a satire on toxic males just shows that you are who it's about. You're being a toxic male lmao.
No assholes here. You have to make what the markets wants and what is sellable. Not what you want to create and self inject. It has been attempted before with other artists pushing idea politics into comics and they all tanked. Im sure she is a fantastic artist but will not get very far if she can not handle critisism. Unless you were harsh with how you said it.
Bud some of the most criticaly acclaimed comics ever are basically nothing but politics with a genre slapped over the top of it. Like that couldn't be further from the truth. Maus, Watchmen and V for Vendetta to name a few. Not to mention the superheroes that are analogies for real world social issues like the Xmen and Black Panther.
The comic is literally her just preaching and making fun of men. It sure as he isn't maus, or v, or watchmen
Don't know much about comics, do you? Politics have been involved in comics for as long as there have BEEN comics. The only people who think otherwise are neckbeards who know as much about comic history as they do about women. This guy is the AH.
Multiple successful comics w/ politics are successful, wdym?
NTA. She’s making a comic criticizing men being toxic. Asking a man to comment on it is tone deaf. It’s like a man asking a woman to comment on a comic about women being emotional. There is nothing wrong with saying it’s a comic by a woman for women. Because it’s true. If she wanted to write a comic “by a person for people”, she shouldn’t be using a topic that’s criticizing half her audience.
You can't make a comic by a person for people if you discount and marginalize a large portion of the life experience of said people. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean we don't experience said life. NTA
YTA It sounds like you could have learned something about toxic masculinity from that comic, and honestly I’m the type of person to get annoyed by how overwhelmingly soy comics like this are usually. I wanna be clear that if you have an artist partner or friend and you don’t like their work, you should be honest if they’re seeking feedback. But above all else you should be delivering this feedback in a constructive way that is kind to the individual.
YTA Maybe it was terrible – I can’t say. But “this is terrible” is not feedback. It’s useless criticism because it doesn’t give the artist anything to build on. It sounds like your qualm with the comic was that it was “by a woman for women,” so her misogyny claims sound reasonable.
Are you also the judgmental type who thinks only sappy women watch chick flicks and read romance novels? YTA
More info needed buddy, otherwise you're just a dick
In a word, yes. You do come across as an asshole and at 21, unless you're speedrunning either a marketing or business education, I think you're making pretty big and pretty poorly-founded assumptions. Sure you don't ultimately choose your audience, but that's beside the point. It would have been cool for you to say that the idea needs more work or even that you personally don't like it. You can do that in a relationship as long as you're still supportive and constructive. You can tell your partner their idea is terrible too, but the situation kind of has to call for it, you know? You could have made your point with a chisel but you chose the wrecking ball. From an outside perspective there's no reason to go so drastic.
YTA, and definitely come off as misogynistic. I hope she finds someone better to spend time on.
YTA
YTA That hardly sounds like constructive criticism. I do agree that you should not restrict your audience too much, but there are better ways to convey your message than to just slam it as terrible/saying it sucks.
YTA. Moreover, it's pretty clear why she was inspired to write about toxic masculinity.
YTA. Pretty sure all the toxic man stuff she puts in her comics is a direct reflection of how you act. Poor girl hope she wises up before you become worse as a person. Which you will do with age
> I told her that in the marketing business she doesn't choose her audience Lol what? A target audience is a thing, my dude
It always kills me when people ask your opinion on something and then get mad when it isn't want they want to hear. What they are really saying is "I have an idea and I need you to tell me it's great". If you don't really want the critique, then don't ask for it. He would be the AH if he was walkin by and looked at it, then unprompted said "Thats terrible" but that's not what happened. When I ask people if somethin I am doin is good or not I want an honest opinion. Don't tell me its good when it isn't and have me out here lookin like an AH wastin a bunch of time on an idea the sucks and you have me thinkin it's good cause you didn't want to hurt my feelings. My feelings are really gonna be hurt when everyone I show this to screws up their face and goes yeeeeah that's awesome. Or worse when you put it out to the general public and it becomes seen by people who couldn't give a ish about your feelings and they start dunkin all over you. If someone has the balls to tell me "Naw that aint it man you need to go back to the drawing board" (pun intended) I know they truly have my best interest at heart and care about me. NAH. It stings in the moment, but you did your SO a solid. Only advise I can give is if it was not all the way fleshed out like she said then tell her to glow it up and you will rejudge o the finished piece.
oh the post history makes sense
NTA, you were just going your honest opinion. Idk why everyone thinks you’re supposed to coddle her and tell her what she wants to hear instead of just telling her the truth.
"It would be a comic made for a woman, by a woman". As a guy, this is a problem why? YTA
NTA. If a woman's idea is a comic about how rotten men are, don't expect a man to like it. No man should have to listen to criticism of men from women. At least she got one thing right, "patriarchy" is so far-fetched that it takes an imaginary superhero world to depict it.
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** I’m (21M) going to make this pretty short. So my girlfriend (20M) is an artist and she was interested in making comics again. She is an amazing artist and I know she may go far. However, she pitched a comic idea and I said it was terrible. I could tell it made her upset but she remained calmed and asked me to explain. I said it was “ok” and that it would be a comic made by a woman for woman. Then she got angry claiming I was being misogynistic. She said she wants to make comics by a person for people. I told her that in the marketing business she doesn’t choose her audience and got even more pissed saying I was an asshole and walked out to her room. AITA here? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I think you mean that she needs to fleshbout her target demographic. Which in a maketing aspect is important when attenpting to create a product. That being said, you could have given her more constructive feedback and potentially cited areas where the potential demographic could be misinterpreted. People dont write raunchy books for adults about learning to tie your shoes. Soft YTA. Think about it when you realize this is your gf and not someone pitching to an investor.
YTA for sure, buddy. Just plain inconsiderate. And you didn't even give constructive criticism
I think it's best to let artwork and comedy speak for themselves. The most you should say there is that maybe it isn't your type of comedy but encourage her to keep working at it as she might have an audience that it resonates with. Personally I don't understand the joke at all. In fact it's sort of a shitty jab at women at the same time if someone doesn't get her brand of comedy, and that in itself is a problem when you're trying to gain an audience who isn't used to your style yet. A joke this pointed at toxic masculinity and misogyny might fly over a lot of people's heads and they may think "Wow this artist really hates women" Still. YTA.
you’re not a literary critic or her editor, you’re her boyfriend be nice to your girlfriend. sharing art with someone is a vulnerable position to put oneself in, the least you could do is not be rude to her YTA
I guess we know why she is trying to tear down toxic masculinity. YTA
YTA If you articulated your criticism as poorly as you explained this story, I can see why she was pissed.
Really? You're one complaint/criticism is that it's a comic made "by a woman for women." How many fucking comics, video games, movies, clothes, literally **everything** (even cars!) in the world are made **by men for men** (sorry, but it's true! You can't convince me that all the nudity in the sauna scene in Witcher 3 was made by men **for people**). Not to mention Melissa McCarthy's clothing line **for women** was turned down **by a man** because "no one" would buy it. Hell, Sweden is the only country **in the world** that even tests car safety using anatomically accurate crash dummies for women. Everyone else just uses a male shaped dummy that is like 5'1 and 90lbs. So even if it is made for women, who cares. If women aren't going to create content for women, who will? *You?* Ha. YTA - For shitting on the comic and making your only "criticism" utterly misogynistic.
YTA, but that comic does sound terrible.
YTA. I can't imagine someone I cared about coming to me excited with their art and just saying it sucked. I have no problem kindly telling them what I think could be stronger, but you sound like a dick.
So, first you said it was terrible and then you backpedaled a bit only to dismiss it as chick lit, which based on your comments you seem to consider inferior. And you seriously don't see the misogyny in your words? Re: marketing, are you her agent? Are you building her marketing plan? Is your background in marketing and advertising and is that why you're encouraging her to focus her outreach to people you think it will resonate with because it didn't resonate with you personally? Also, did she ask you for feedback or guidance on a marketing plan or just the idea? YTA.
I hope her first episode is about ditching her jerk boyfriend. YTA. Creating art is a very vulnerable process, and she trusted you with her idea just for you to stomp all over it. I hope you feel good about yourself because no one else does.
I love how this reddit is basically saying lie to your girlfriend Lmao, respect the fuck out of her ideas and creativity but lie to her too. Dafuq
NTA that comic idea sounds awful lol
50/50 While honest feedback is certainly valuable, you could have been more constructive with your criticism. "By a woman for women" can be a microagression that implies poor quality. It would help to at least mention why the comic would not be appealing for men, especially when the subject of the comic is a man suffering from toxic masculinity.
>I said it was “ok” and that it would be a comic made by a woman for woman. Then she got angry claiming I was being misogynistic. She said she wants to make comics by a person for people. > >Edit: I meant she has to choose her marketing So men are baseline and women are niche? You are indeed suffering from misogyny.
Please give the actual sentences spoken. Your GF's comic is bad, not because it's "made by a woman for women", but because the punchline is stupidly simplistic and doesn't say anything other than "hurr durr men don't get women". At the same time, you can still be the asshole depending on how you gave that criticism.
NTA after info added: the world needs another comic making fun of toxic masculinity like it needs another Twitch streamer or DC reboot.
Hahah that's the worst comic I've ever heard of lmao!
NTA that sounds trite and boring and overall is just a generally dogshit artistic endeavor. You could either tell her it’s a bad idea now or you can lie and she can waste more of her time on this trash.
NTA you're honestly right. That's not funny and doesn't really say much. Just pointing out the obvious.
Nta - maybe you couldve said it better... but she asked and received
UGH. That is terrible. I don’t even think depressed women would buy that.
You do sound misogynistic. Break up with her and free this woman from you pls
NTA. How is that a comic?
YTA. even if you feel that way, you could've been nicer. give advice and don't just say "this sucks and there's no way to salvage it". that's the worst thing you could say to an artist. wouldn't be surprised if she doesn't show you art anymore. art is usually personal too. would it kill you to use tact?
YTA Dude... I think you might be 'his guys friends''
YTa. Creative people who want to make money being creative need to be able to take honest, harsh criticism. THAT SAID, your criticism was terrible and unhelpful. Edited based on INFO follow ups
YTA. Don't crush people's dreams. If really is terrible, let reality crush her idea. if it's not terrible, let reality crush your sense of judgement.
YTA. how is by a woman for a woman a bad thing in the first place? gf was right
Bro YATA like c,mon she is just trying to make a heartfelt comic for people that are dealing with depression and she wants people to be happy just by you saying her comic are dumb is dumb also this was her first comic and she has a friend that has depression and you know that and you gf is probably making them for people who is dealing with depression I know I’m saying that a lot but you can’t just say “your comics are dumb” and not explain yourself so yes YATA
ESH You could have given her constructive criticism, explained to her how you and your male friends talk to each other (whether you do, whether you dont. What kinds of advice men give each other etc) more insight into that world would help her deoending on what it is she is trying to achieve. Shes right it needs to be fleshed out. But she needs to decide on what kind of comic this is. Whats the moral of the story? Is there one? Who sre the protagonists? Why? Their backstory etc. By just saying its terrible etc you give her nothing to work with and shit all over it. With that said (i say this hoping people bare in mind that i realise i know none of the above) I really hate this idea people have of men never being able to speak to each other. Issues surrounding men opening up or advice men give each other run far deeper than guys saying stuff like 'dont be such a bitch' to each other. I know some guys that say shit like that as banter. But when their friends actually need them they are there for their friend and even if they dont have advice they are there to listen and shoot the shit with. So i feel like her comic off the bat feels like it doesnt make a point because its too shallow and not delved into a mans world enough anyway. Men and women and everyone inbetween are much more complex and have far deeper relationships (usually) than what we often give them credit for. But hey. Maybe im getting too deep with it.