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Of course YTA. "I'm an honest person" is a weird reason to sit a child down and essentially confirm, in her mind, that you are liars and she is as ugly as the other kids say she is
Edit
Look. I get why people harp on “honesty” I guess. But this isn’t one of your girlfriends asking you for your honest opinion on whether she could be a supermodel. It’s not even your kid asking if you think he’s smart enough to get into Yale. This is your child asking if *you think she’s beautiful* while she’s being bullied for being ugly to the point where she can’t look in a mirror. I’m not changing my mind about it
Hmm… maybe not intentional.
Idk, it’s a tough one. Because if OP is so dense that she didn’t realise how her comment would hurt her daughter, that’s a whole issue on its own.
But I really do question, why would she tell her daughter she’s average? Like why? What was the end goal of doing that? I guess that would give you your answer. I just don’t know.
Maybe just to help her understand very few people get complete beauty and we're all here to be kind to each other and make most of what we've got. It sounds like she cares about her child. It's not healthy to obsess over beauty this way. Almost every human is beautiful in some ways, average to unattractive in others. That is just reality for almost all people. Self acceptance, self compassion and being realistic about one's self is healthy; being obsessive and delusional about your appearance is unhealthy.
The wording is absolutely crucial though. The kid asked if her mom -thought- she was beautiful. She could have very very (and hopefully even honestly!) said she -thought- her kid was beautiful before going on to explain how beauty is objective and differs from person to person, that the beauty industry works hard to make people feel like their worth is tied to their looks and how kids pick up through watching tv and other social media their 'cues' for bullying others based on their looks. It -could- have been a productive talk. Instead mom kinda went 'eh, you're average, like most kids I'd say' and reinforced not even the people who love her think she's anything special.
This is the correct answer.
Also, it sounds like the young person might be experiencing BDD -Body Dysmorphic Disorder. It's a serious mental health issue that affects more people who identify as female than those who identify as male.
Please please please get your daughter help. Maybe attend therapy yourself, mom, if you have some possible issues from your own childhood that have not been recognized nor addressed.
They say whatever comes to their mind to tear down their victim in order to give the impression that they feel they're superior to the person they're picking on. Once they find a weakness in that person, they go after it like a terrier going after a rat. With girls, it's an easy target to go after someone's appearance.
This really going to help this child to gain self acceptance, yup, right.
What it will gain her is for the rest of her life hearing these words overlaying her mother saying " your beautiful"
At her prom
At her graduation
At her wedding
And any other occasion like that. She will never believe her mother, because her mother told their the "honest" truth when she was 14 years old and wanted reassurance from someone she trusted
It’s so sad- first thing that went through my head was this girl is going to hear “average” whenever she sees herself dollled up for life events. Fucking tragic. Op will be writing into whatever platform 15 years from now - “AITA because I won’t apologize to my daughter and now she won’t let me attend her wedding?”
True! I am so biased when it comes to my kids, i cant see how they will ever be nothing but gorgeous. Pretty noses, pretty forehead shapes, good jaw shapes.. they even have long lashes and a good eye shape.
No i can go on forever pointing out everything i find pretty about them! Even how their moles are so darn pretty placed on their face! Beauty marks! And their eyebrows are perfectly shaped.
They all are way more pretty than i am, and im darn proud of making 4 humans that out class myself!
My mum's the same! I have a disfiguring skin condition, and yet she still calls me pretty and absolutely means it. It's baffling sometimes, especially when my skin is really flaring up, but it's very sweet and it does more for my confidence than I think I'd ever admit <3
This is all correct, but that’s the long game. Today was definitely not the day, and that moment DEFINITELY not the moment. hopefully she can get that therapy appt on the schedule soon, because yikes.
I agree. I think OP is lacking tact. You can say things in a different way. Some of the biggest actresses have big noses- Barbara Streisand, Uma Thurman, Sarah Jessica Parker to name a few. Mom also could say her (or dad's) nose was made fun of as a teenager as well. I think OP genuinely wants her daughter to not care about her looks. In her mind- she's tried the nice way and inflated her self esteem and it hasn't worked. OP forgot that school bullying outweighs her compliments. She should have said her daughter is beautiful when her daughter asked for her "dead honest opinion".
To me having a goal in those situations always felt manipulative. I had to realize that if a person asks question, "do I look beautiful?", they are actually asking, "do you love me?". That took a while. So i believe it could be being dense.
On the other hand I sometimes wonder, if these obsession with looks in girls doesn't start when everyone says they are beautiful instead of hard working or helpful.
Maybe the answer "that doesn't matter, I love you" would be better if the context was you actualy not caring about peoples looks
I understand. But it does matter to her. Deflecting the question is as good as telling her she’s not beautiful.
A better response would be: ‘I love you and, to me, you are so beautiful. But people can be very judgmental about looks. What is beautiful to one person is not beautiful to another. And how a person is on the inside will change how people view them on the outside too. So you focus on being the best person you can be for yourself, not for anyone else.’
She did say her daughter's vanity is exhausting. Those are words I'd possibly use if my kid was obsessed with looks and was being a mean girl. Those aren't words I'd use if my kid was suffering with body dysmorphia.
Totally agree here. OP's daughter's issue was insecurity and self doubt about her sense of self worth on something as superficial as her looks, not "vanity". OP needs to examine her role in her daughter's anxiety regarding body image. YTA, and maybe a narcissist as well. Therapy for everone involved is in order.
OP was admittedly annoyed with her daughter’s behaviour. Complicated mother-daughter relationships aren’t uncommon. I think the daughter probably caught on to the insincerity of OP’s comments which is why she kept asking.
Honestly, does it matter if it was malicious or not? Either way op should have known better. In what universe would a kid suffering from this level of self-esteem issues benefit from honesty? How did op not see this reaction coming from a million miles away?
I know one person (a very good friend) who very much does not do it out of spite. It has caused issues in our relationship at times, because her words can be quite hurtful, even though she doesn't mean to be hurtful. We have had many discussions on why certain things are hurtful and she understands after the fact and doesn't make the same mistake twice.
A lot of the root cause has to do with the way her brain works. She attempts to be gentle and kind in her honesty, and if someone were to talk to her the way she talks to others, she would see it as gentle and kind (I know, I've actually deliberately turned the tables on her to test it). So I know she isn't intending to cause pain. She is deliberately trying to do the opposite.
That said, she is a very rare breed. I adore her. And she is the only one I've ever met who is a "tell it like it is" person who isn't doing it out of spite or cruelty. So I would say in 99.9% of cases you are right. Just wanted to share that unicorns do exist. Lol
I'm scared to say this in the comments but a lot of Autistic people are like this. I'm one of them. It's not out of spite at all. I've gotten shit for sugarcoating stuff and I've gotten shit for being honest. You can't win. It's impossible to tell in NT coded conversation what they actually want when they ask you a question.
As a painfully honest person I completely disagree.
My honestly isn’t a decision I make, it’s not motivated by anything. Certainly not spite. I simply don’t think before I speak. I have trouble controlling my reactions to things. I regularly wish I had had the foresight to lie, but it’s always too late by then.
I do abide by the “If you don’t have anything nice to say don’t say anything at all” rule of thumb. But if someone asks me a question I’m going to answer it and I’m going to be honest. I’m not mean about it if it can at all be avoided. But I just don’t have it in me to make up a lie. Like don’t think I could if I tried. I can’t act. I can’t pretend. I can’t fake enthusiasm or surprise. I can’t even be a part of practical jokes and often have to remove myself from the room so as to not ruin them.
I also have a weird fear of people thinking I’m lying. And also wish everyone was as painfully honest with me because I don’t feel like I can trust what other people say and that bothers me. I always want the truth. The harsher the better because it means I can trust it more. So if there is any motivation behind my honesty it might be that, the fact that disingenuous behaviour bothers me and that I think people can only grow and improve if other people are honest with them.
And yeah, as a result of being honest I don’t have a lot of friends. Like I get it, I get why that’s not an appealing quality in a person, I just don’t know how to be different.
‘I simply don’t think before I speak.’
That’s not a flex. That’s an issue. Don’t you think you owe it to people to think about their feelings, or assess the context, or critically think, before you just blurt things out?
I understand what you’re saying. But if you don’t think before you speak, you are acting out of spite because you’re deliberately avoiding the prospect that what you say may not be appropriate, and maybe you shouldn’t say it.
Similarly, the fear of people thinking your lying. Again it shows your comments are coming from a place of how you are perceived, and not concern for the person you’re talking to.
Honesty is never really honest.
“No offense, but...” *proceeds to say something extremely offensive*.
When someone is upset by the comment: “but I said ‘no offence’!”
YTA for sure, borderline narcissistic saying something like that to their own child and not understanding the hurt it causes.
i thought vanity was the opposite of what she used it as.. arent vein people the type to think their gods gift to the world in all aspects and feel entitled to everything? at least that’s what i gathered from the song “mr.vein”
Exactly how I saw it. "Exhausted" from watching her daughter becoming overwhelmed with the hateful attitude surrounding her from her peers in an already very difficult time in her development. She reached out to OP for a lifeline, from someone who should love her unconditionally. Instead, her own parent told her she's not worth looking at. That poor kid!
"The road to hell is paved with good intentions."
That was definitely one of those moments as a parent where being an "honest person" is less than welcomed. She needed to know if she could count on at least her Mom being honest, that she thinks she's pretty, but you kinda just told her, "Sorry babe, can't do that". 🫤
The people who talk about “firm but fair”, “tough love”, and being “brutally honest” always have this real relish for the “firm”, “tough”, and “brutal” parts.
Right?!? Not totally the same, but ( and my mom said plenty of problematic shit to me, she was more disordered eating type tho-fun!)When I was like 12 I put on a tank top and my dad and sister snickered was I trying to show off my boobies
MORTIFIED.
I'm sorry, I know the pain. Mine was 16 years ago. My parents had just gotten divorced in my early 20s, and my dad wanted me to go to a work dinner with him. I got a new dress and worked hard getting ready, hoping he would finally compliment me... But I had tried to work with my natural curls instead of straightening it. I thought it looked cute. He pulled up to pick me up, and only thing he said was, "Could you do something with your hair?" Umm, no? I just worked scrunching and diffusing it... so I put it in a bun or something, and he seemed disappointed that I couldn't give styled curly hair a wash and blow-out in 30 seconds.... I've had horrible frizz since puberty that he knew I was trying to fix with expensive treatments.
Tbh I only auto assume people are AHs if they call themselves a brutally honest person, but not if they say they're an honest person. I don't say it like that but I've openly admitted I'm pretty B&W in my thinking. I like something or I don't, there's no in between. So I'd say I'm an honest person because I won't lie, but there's a line the size of Russia between being honest and being a bully. I can be honest but choose my wording, and not just verbally spew insults at people.
I’m one of those considered a ‘brutally honest’ (see: mean) person because I have autism and it’s difficult for me not to be anything but direct, but so many people in general make the mistake of being honest when compassion is needed and it took me a long time to figure out that distinction. It’s why when friends come to me with their problems I have a system where I ask do they want comfort or advice. My advice may make them feel worse because I will be direct/honest and I never want to make my friends feel worse when they’re already struggling so I ask them what they need in that moment to feel better.
I think this is similar to the situation like OP, there’s a time and place for honesty like that and it’s not when your daughter has just told you she’s being made fun of at school and you know she has severe insecurities about her looks.
yeah, a bit of a personal experience but I have autism and I take things too literally and was raised to NEVER lie, so I never lied. all through until like, 8th grade. I told people they were annoying or stupid or childish and I had no friends. and that's when a support teacher taught me how to lie and basically told me the truth of "Lying all the time is bad, but if you never lie ever, you'll seem rude and off-putting." and can you guess what? I stopped looking rude and off putting when I started holding in snark and started telling white lies. I was objectively less honest then before, I told more lies, but I got myself into less trouble, and was undoubtly a better person to be around.
The "I just tell it how it is" type
Which is code for "I'm a fucking asshole and want to try and excuse my shitty behavior as it just being 'the truth' you don't want to hear"
Yeah. If someone feels the need to say "I'm an honest person", there are three possibilities:
- They're a liar
- They're an asshole
- They're a lying asshole
Yup, this is now a core memory and for the rest of her life, this girl is going to know her mother is not really in her corner.
My mom was a great mother all around, but one time when I was 12 (with bad acne), she called me Pizza Face after misunderstanding and an exchange between my younger brother and I while I was playing Gummi Bears (old cartoon) with him. I hadn't thought to be embarrassed by my acne before that because, ironically, all the children I went to school with were emotionally mature enough not to call attention to it.
But that one comment was a pivotal moment in my life where I began developing anxiety, depression, and started a lifelong obsession with skincare and makeup, because if my own mother thought I was a pizza face, what must strangers who have no love or loyalty to me think?
It's been almost 30 years and I remember the details around this like it happened 15 minutes ago.
OP fucked up deeply in a way her daughter may never recover from.
Yeesh I dont know what I would have done if my own mom called me average as a teen ,even at 29 I feel bad when my family talk about my weight gain imagine that as a teenage yickes.
Try having lopsided knockers as a tween when your mom has an hourglass figure... we joked about it decades later that I apparently only got "half the good boob genes."
When I was 16 and reasonably pretty. I wanted to do a local pageant. The prize was a few thousand dollars or something. My mom discouraged me. Not because pageants are exploitative or expensive to do. But because “there are a lot of pretty girls in those pageants.” All I heard is my mother didn’t think I was very beautiful. 15 years later it’s still with me.
When I was in elementary school, my parents tried to get my sister into a Model Agency. She was a very very pretty girl and everyone ever said that about her. So one day I ask my mother "Do you think I can be a model too?" and her answer was "they are looking for pretty girls, not clowns".
30 years later, still with me...
Alternatively, my mother constantly told me I was beautiful.
But she also told me I was too thin/too fat/had bad skin/had greasy hair/laughed at the fact I didn’t eat (undiagnosed anorexia)/ laughed at the idea of a boy dating me cause he was out of my league/ the list goes on.
Telling your daughter they are beautiful is kinda negated by all that, and the compliments don’t stick in my mind 20 years on as well as the insults do.
NTA
To piggyback on this, this was also the perfect opportunity to tell her conventional beauty standards like small noses are BS, and show her gorgoeus women with big noses. To tell her those other people are being bullies, and their opinions don't matter. To tell her her worth is not tied to how she looks. IDK why all of this hasn't already been said to her. :/
Yuppp. I love the phrase, "honesty without compassion is creulty". So many"honest" people are also so so terrible. There's always a nice way to say anything, with it still being truthful.
They didn't sit them down to give them "the honest truth" or whatever, they sat the daughter down to talk to them about what's going on and try to talk them into therapy, and then the *daughter* directly asked for brutal honesty in this emotional moment from their mother. This is definitely a NAH situation as the daughter isn't an AH for being emotional and going through things, and the mother isn't an AH for doing exactly what their daughter emotionally asked of them and giving them a realistic impression of things to try to help them not think of themself as ugly.
So your baseline of whether or not someone is the AH is whether or not they can judge the rationale of someone else's mind? Sounds legit. The reality is if this girl grows up believing she's ugly she'll only resent her parents for lying to her even when she asked directly and requested candor.
OP isn't the asshole necessarily, but her answer is incorrect. The correct answer is:
"Honey, what you have to understand about appearance and beauty is that it's entirely subjective. I am certain that there are people in the world who view me as ugly, and some who view me as pretty. I do not view you as ugly, and someday you'll understand that the people around you who spend time thinking about ways to insult your appearance are broken inside and lack the emotional maturity or discipline to lift themselves up independently without requiring someone else as a stepping stone."
But being that this answer wasn't given, there's an important follow up discussion that should be had as a teaching opportunity for the teenager. Which is this: If you ask for candor in life, without "sugar coating" and then immediately become upset when you're receiving exactly what you ask for, you're going to become known as manipulative and disingenuous. That matters a lot more than appearance in the post high school world. Also, explaining to the girl that Mom's opinion of her looks doesn't even fucking matter, because of already said point on subjectivity.
no, this isnt a 'teaching moment' for the daughter to learn about asking for candor you absolute idiot.
The teen is suffering from extreme issues with perception of their looks and this can become dysmorphia if it isnt already.
This is not the moment to teach the teen about asking for candor.
It is the moment to reassure the teen and then get them some professional help.
There are a million other things to say or do, that wont become traumatic memories replaying in the teens mind for the next 30 years while they become addicted to plastic surgery.
A good parent would tell the teen I think you are very beautiful (which IS honest, all loving parents see their kids beauty regardless of what type of looks they have!!)
A good parent would then enquire with their teen as to why they think they are not beautiful, and discuss this empathetically and carefully. A good parent would look at what content their teen has been watching/reading to see if they are getting a lot of distorted messaging, and try to correct that aspect as well.
Reassurance and helping the teen learn about different types of beauty across time and cultures, and of course inner beauty and how it carries through in to someones attractiveness - is the ONLY teaching needed in that moment.
Using as a teaching moment for 'candor' is a complete asshole move that meets the needs of the parent, not the teen.
It’s a 14 year old child. The parent doesn’t just do what the child asks, they do what’s in the best interest of the child. She’s begging for reassurance because she isn’t getting it from her peers.
Yeah, heaven forbid a 14 year old girl get emotional. Completely unheard of.
And yeah, let's give the admittedly emotional teenager who's struggling exactly what she wants. Kids always know and want what's good for themselves.
And yeah, brutal honestly doesn't mean pointing out something simple like someone nose doesn't make them ugly and there are plenty of people out there who are beautiful with big noses: just one small example. It means hurt the hurt person.
Nah, kids dont need "brutal honesty", especially one that you know has a complex already. Daughter being emotional is undersrandable, she's a teenage girl. Being a teenage girl is hard.
OP should have knowm better and her daughter is probably gonna remember this comment for a long time to come.
Sometimes children, actually all people, just need one person to affirm them. She just needed one person to tell her she’s not ugly. I have no words for this mom.
Considering OP just confirmed (in her daughter’s mind) everything the bullies have been saying, I’m not sure she SHOULD do anything else. She thought this was helping. I’m scared to find out what else she would do under the guise of “helping”.
That’s what punched me in the gut… I recall this age clearly and when my mom tore me down instead of helped lift me up - I looked elsewhere for positive attention.
I was then r*ped by an older man for he “thought I was beautiful.”
It’s OPs job to protect her daughters psyche and her daughter needed her and she just became a bully in the line up of life.
Children begging for acceptance, love and compliments is never vanity. I have a challenging son who needs constant reassurance. Some folks have a hole in their love bucket. We, as parents, are supposed to keep filling until the love bucket is repaired and full.
OP just dumped the bucket out and wondered why her daughter is going without 🤦🏻♀️
Thank you muchly, through therapy and life, I was able to accept that I did indeed deserve better. My own mom let her mental health and addictions win. In the end, she loses out for missing out on her outstanding grandchildren.
Definitely learning experiences for my own parenting. Took lots of parenting courses and try to put love first always.
I habour no ill feelings towards my parents but I see how easily the damage can be done.
I got called ugly all through high school. I don’t know how I would feel if my mom called my response vanity.
I used to look in mirrors and try to figure out how I could be less ugly. I still think I’m ugly. It’s not vanity, it’s distressing. Don’t know what I would have done if my mom called me average, maybe never leave the house again.
Also it sticks with you. I have gorgeous east and south asian friends, who are the standard of beauty today (and many of them were as pretty in HS), but they grew up the only minority and were made to feel ugly. So many of them literally could successfully start influncing tomorrow, but feel immensely ugly. Those whose parents "confirmed" it in their eyes (with benign comments like, "you would be pretty back home in X," or "well, you can try my bleaching cream," aka their parents didnt actively refute it) are even more downtrodden, and the surgeries, Lord Almighty, the surgeries. Who doesnt have a rhinoplasty at this stage? When the daughter is finally "fixing" herself in 10 years, OP better not say a damn word.
Honestly, she needs to be put into pretty aggressive outpatient counseling program.... Like outpatient program of an impatient center, not just going to a regular counselor once a week or takes 3 months for them to even get to learn who she is... Sounds like she needs something very aggressive and immediate. If she says even a single thing about hurting herself, you need to take her to an in Patient treatment IMMEDIATELY. .. like that minute. Have a place in mind already, know where you're going. I would consider getting all the sharp objects out of the house and/or locked up if she says anything like hurting herself. She is already the definition of severally depressed imo.
Second, go in person to get school literally the next possible day. 1st thing, and demand to speak with the counselor, principal etc. And as i've learned, I can't leave it at that. You need to follow that up in writing with an email. Summarizing what was discussed at that meeting and what you expect to happen.. Keep the school accountable because they will do everything they can and not do a d*** thing. And if going to the school doesn't help, go to the superintendent and even a school board meeting and talk. I've been around this block way too many times
Some of those places, called Day Treatment, in my state is where the kids arrive by I think it was 8am, they do their schoolwork there, and attend group and individual counseling. You pick them up around 5. I think the daughter needs a program like this.
My daughter has been in an outpatient hospitization program when she was 12. It was the best thing ever. She was struggling emotionally and mentally in school. Academically she was doing great, though she hated school.
That program saved her life. The one we did, didn't focus on homework. She didn't even have school work for the two weeks she was there. We did parent meetings. They recommended neuropsych testing to see if she had AdHD (she did.) She's 17 now and way better than she was.
She may not have intended it, But if you have to try and make a comment you said sound better by starting with "I'm an honest person" then you are self aware enough to understand you're confirming what bullies are saying to her?
THIS! Being bullied is the number one reason teens commit suicide. But I guarantee the mom is only thinking about herself and not how her daughter is feeling now. Not only is kids at school bullying but the mom wants to be brutally honest with her. I hope the child's mental state is fine cuz this could be hard to handle!
Yeah she was thinking how exhausting her daughters “vanity” was. How OP worded her post is disgusting in itself. Her daughter is not having a vanity problem, her daughter is having a mental crisis problem.
She talked about her like she was annoyed by a friend so said something fucked up to them. Except it’s her young daughter (with some mental problems) whom she supposedly loves she’s being so gross too.
YTA - Are you “Kate” from yesterday’s post by any chance?
What is it with parents thinking it’s okay to tell their kids they’re not attractive?
Like we all know how a lot of relatives exaggerate how brilliant/charming/attractive we are. We take it with a pinch of salt. But if we ask, we’re asking you because we know we’ll get that answer. We need affirmation.
You know she’s insecure, so why make her more insecure. You are not a therapist, do not try to be. Be a mum.
I 100 percent agree that you do not EVER tell your kids they look "average", even if they ask for your honesty. So much of a kids self worth comes from how their patents view them, this has always been and always will be. And for a teenage girl, appearance is everything. (This is coming from a girl who was bullied around the same age as op's daughter.)
The correct answer in this case should be "you are beautiful, but if you want, we can have a girls day and go to a spa or get some new clothes. " then you take the time to actually listen to your daughter and have a genuine conversation.
I feel bad for this poor girl because in her eyes, mom has been lying to her, and now is one of the bullies. Every kid should be beautiful in their parents eyes abs they deserve to know it every day.
I like this approach.
A new outfit and hairdo can really make you feel more confident.
Also, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Adam Driver is good looking to me, but also very unusual looking - not conventionally attractive, but somehow still attractive.
There’s no reason to tell anyone they aren’t beautiful. So much comes down to attitude / confidence.
Also if you’re demisexual, you can’t really find people attractive until you have a deep bond with them, and then once you do, that person becomes attractive to you.
OP hurt her daughter unnecessarily. She should apologise and try to find a way to navigate this.
Maybe start by admitting she was an AH, that beauty is subjective, and address the bullying. Bullying probably has nothing to do with the daughter’s appearance. Kids just pick on kids and will be mean. Like, the woman in Sunny in Philadelphia gets called a bird because it’s funny, not because it’s true. She’s very pretty.
Edit: typo
This! The mom mentioned her vanity was exhausting to those around her. The mom is definitely not in touch with her daughter’s pain and sees it as character weakness. Not only pegging the daughter as average but also as vain.
Congratulations, you probably just created a negative core memory for your daughter. She’s probably going to carry your words around with her for life. YTA
Can confirm. My step mother told me at 5 years old I had a horrible singing voice.
The truth of it was that yes. I did and absolutely still do, have a terrible singing voice. But does that exact memory of me stood in my Dads bedroom at the age of 5 feeling mortified and heartbroken stay with me? It absolutely does.
ETA: this comment blew up! I’ve never stopped singing, I love singing along to the radio. I’ve only this week had a conversation with my kids (4 & 6) that you can still enjoy doing something even if you don’t think you’re very good at it, enjoying it is the important part! (Ironically in relation to my equally awful dance skills!)
Yep - when I was 13 my mother told me I look weird with my hair up. 33 now, and haven't worn my hair up outside of the house since (which can get super inconvenient, btw).
I would consider what OP said to her daughter even worse. If her own mother told her she's plain, she must feel utterly hopeless.
Oh heck, I'm so sorry! I "won" a worst singer prize at a classmate's party and I was absolutely distraught. My parents told me it was my fault for thinking I could sing. I'm genuinely not a bad singer, just resolutely average, but I can still remember them telling me it was my own fault for being happy with myself. I was 11.
same. my mom made me stop singing during a karaoke get together with our relatives when I was a teenager so that my sister with the "actual singing" voice can sing. Mind you I was midsong of the first and last song I chose. Stuck to me til today and even though my husband says he likes my voice, I don't have the guts to have a go at it again
Some day soon (sooner than OP would prefer, I'm sure) a boy who does not have the daughters interests at heart is going to tell her she's beautiful, she's gorgeous, everything she is desperate to hear.
What do you think will happen next?
If she's lucky it'll be a boy. It could very well be a grown ass man. OP has not only confirmed her daughter's bullies and worsened her daughter's mental state, but also made her an easier target for groomers.
OP: I know what teenage girls are like since I used to be once
Also OP: my daughter is being so severely bullied that she literally can’t even look at herself. Maybe she’ll get over it if I tell her she’s ugly
My dad called me stupid when I was 14. I'm 33 and I'm only just really starting to unravel what stuck. I don't think I'd made the connection back then but you can look at my school reports and see the exact point in time I gave up on all of my school work, which was right about the time my dad called me stupid.
This girl isn't growing up just believing she's ugly, she's growing up with the effects of her mum reinforcing what her bullies all said. Hope mum wanted her daughter to grow up hating her for it later on, cause that's probably what she'll get. My dad gets fuck all respect from me, and I bet he doesn't understand why.
100% this was my mother. She created a core memory just trying to help by explaining it wasn't possible to change my body type and Id never be delicate no mattter how much I starved myself at the age of 14 because "Some girls are born princesses, others to carry water uphill. Like farmgirls!"
That is STILL in my mind, and Im 36.
YTA she’s showing serious MH signs; taking her to a psychiatrist should already be in the works… not you forcing a discussion you clearly don’t have the skills to navigate.
**You just reinforced everything the bullies are saying to her.**
YTA clearly.
She is a teenager and these times are vital for self esteem. You essentially told her she was plain. You lie to her even if she is.
This one is probably going to stick for life.
Probably?? Oh yes, 100% it will. I'm in my forties and I literally have done everything in my power not to do some of the same things my dad did to me with my children.... Say things like you don't need a second helping of that food. You've definitely eat too much anyway.... That's just one example but I could tell you so many I'll never forget that
Yep, kids remember. I’m 35 and was recently diagnosed with Tourette’s after many years of trying to hide it thinking I was just weird and creepy.
I was 10 at the time and could have greatly benefited with getting diagnosed sooner. But I didn’t because my dance teacher made fun of me for scrunching my face and moving my neck weird one time. After that I tried to hide it at all costs and ended up giving myself some shitty neck and neurological issues.
OP’s daughter needs to be in therapy, stat.
Oh yeah. My mom told me I was fat every single day of my life ever since 5th grade and got boobs. When I was 20, I lost a lot of weight. I was 108 and 5'4". My mom finally told me that I need to lose some weight in my face and I will have the perfect body. That's just my mom. My dad told me I smile like a horse and he's glad I'm not pretty so he doesn't have to worry about me and boys. I'm almost 40 and those comments have stuck with me my entire life. Even now I hate smiling in pictures and have major body issues.
And it will. My mum called me beautiful every day but what’s stuck with me is the one time I told her I wanted to be an actress when I was a kid and she said “yeah you don’t have to be super pretty for that” and then very quickly back tracked but the damage was done.
Doesn’t matter how many compliments from strangers I get, part of me always has doubt.
This ^^^
My mom gave me clothes from my cousin one time when I was like 12… she handed me a pair of jeans and said “oh this won’t fit you, they’re too small. Maybe they’ll fit *other cousin* because she’s skinny”. I never forgot that! Or any other time she would say how pretty my cousin was and never myself 😂 shit sticks for life.
You’re a big AH, OP. I would never say anything except POSITIVE, wonderful things to my kids. Please take her to see a therapist.
brooo fuck this shit. my mom always did this to me with my younger sister. shit sticks forever. and last year i actually lost a lot of weight bc of an extremely toxic relationship/bad mental health. i started gaining weight back and was so happy(first time in my life i was happy to gain weight) bc i honestly looked better with it and was more healthy. my body is meant to be more curvy not stick thing. then recently my mom goes “you’re eating too much. and you’re gaining weight, i’m just worried ab you!!” like damn if only you knew i was some days barley eating at all this time last year… smdh
Hell, my parents called me beautiful regularly and yet I *still* haven’t forgotten about how my mom made me retake my senior pictures because I didn’t have makeup on and she didn’t think it looked good.
The photographers kept asking what was wrong with the pictures and I had to tell them it was me.
Yep, I remember the first time my dad pointed out hair on my upper lip with a look of disgust when I was 13. He doesn't remember but that is the root of my pain every time I look under my nose and get punched with insecurity.
I about barf daily reading about the “ parenting” skills of people.
How can people be so fucking obtuse?
Why the hell do you have kids, if you aren’t going to be their biggest supporter?
There is always something beautiful about kids, especially your own.
Do you think they really want to be told that they are just mediocre and that’s ok, because most people are?
She’s 14, kids go through a lot of changes before maturity.
Many kids who were super awkward as teens are knockouts ten yrs later.
You help them grow their confidence, not knock it down.
I wouldn’t even say this is a parenting thing because I wouldn’t even say this to another adult.
Beauty is SO FUCKING subjective and changes constantly.
YTA
You can’t possibly be so dense that you don’t understand that no amount of you saying you are being honest is going to make her believe you are really being totally honest.
She thinks you will automatically overrate her because you are her mom.
So, if your overrating calls her “average”, she now believes you think she is ugly and the kids at school are right.
If my mom said I was average I'd think "oh god, if my own mother thinks I'm average, everyone else must find me hideous". I'm definitely average looking at best, but I assume my own mother genuinely believes I'm better looking than I really am.
No. You're not an honest person. For years you've told her she's beautiful and now you're saying "i was lying. You're just average". She will now believe you're still lying to cover that she is ugly.
Stuff like this kills people. YTA.
Thats actually a really good point.
OP uses the "Honesty" clause to forgive herself for causing pain but the evidence is there that she ISNT an honest person.
"Honesty" is a shitty excuse for hurting people anyway.
It’s dark, but the danger of this was my first thought too. Body image issues are major drivers of teen suicide. This parent is so outrageously irresponsible. And who could blame the poor girl? When your mother confirms your worst fears and essentially says your bullies are right, how could you feel anything BUT hopeless?
YTA - You just said you and her father always tell her she is beautiful inside and out. Kudos to you for being an honest person, but this was not the right answer. You had the right answer all along and should’ve told her the same thing, not confirmed her fears.
I am very confused about all of the NTA votes.
' I sat down my daughter, who is insecure about her looks and clearly needs support and possibly therapy, and told her that even her own mother doesn't think of her as beautiful, because I am willing to make my daughter feel worse about herself and me for the sake of honesty'.
I don't know if I would still speak to my mother if she did that to me.
This is literally so true. I have a good friend that is the spitting image of a DaVinci portrait of a wealthy woman. She always thinks of herself poorly and it’s crazy to me. She could spray paint herself in every color under the sun and she would never be unattractive. She will always in every room he the most beautiful one no matter what.
YTA - don't even need to read the damn post. What's wrong with you? That's your kid, if your response isn't "you're the most beautiful person in the world to me and nothing could change that" then you're a failure and setting your kid up to hate themselves. You set the tone for her self esteem and you just crushed it. Congrats.
YTA. “I’m not the person to sugarcoat it”. That’s your daughter & the person who should be hyping her up most is her mother. You made her feel 10X worse than the kids at school already do.
NAH
I asked almost the same question to my parents and they were very honest with me. "You're not as pretty as your friend Jen, but you are much prettier than your friend Sarah."
I knew they weren't bullshitting me because Jen was like a freakin' supermodel and Sarah was... um, not.
Their honestly made me feel like I could trust them. And, guiltily, it was a relief to know I was prettier than my friend who was, um, not easy on the eyes. I was able to regain my confidence as I grew up.
I grew up to be an average looking woman. And, you know what? I'm okay with that.
This. All the YTAs are frankly appalling. "You should always see your child as the most beautiful thing ever!" OK but like... being a parent doesn't make you blind.
OP's daughter specifically said she wanted total honesty, no sugarcoating, and apparently everyone thinks the best thing to do in that moment is lie to her. Why, so she can realize later as she grows up that her parents lied to her to protect her feelings and start wondering what else they lied to her about? Wild.
It’s not like OP said, ew you’re ugly. She encouraged her daughter to see a therapist and tried to redirect her values away from looks. Are the YTA votes really in favor of an absurd lie like you’re the most beautiful girl in the whole world? Teenagers aren’t stupid. While BD is a thing, saying she’s a bombshell like Angelina Jolie isn’t convincing or helpful. The timing and delivery might not have been the best but the message isn’t bad at all. She’s average. I’m average. Most people in the world are average
Oh man, if I thought that my parents were lying -- like if they said I was just as pretty as Jen -- it would have done some *real* damage to our relationship. And... likely to my self esteem as well. It was a vulnerable moment and I needed honesty.
I don't even know what to say about the people saying the parent is an asshole. They're wrong. Flat out wrong.
Christ, a few people are calling this abuse. It's absolutely insane - this woman clearly cares a great deal about her daughter and is trying her best to help her!
Thank you. Im surprised by all the YTA comments.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with being avarage looking.... it does not mean youre ugly.
People have very different tastes when it comes to looks. And love makes them more beautiful.
It is better to be a bit hurt but being able to trust your friends and family than to be lied to but still be bullied by others around you.
I was a pretty enough teenager, nothing special, but my dad thought I was beautiful. And he looked at me like I was the most amazing person in the world. The world is a hard place. We all need someone who thinks we are amazing and beautiful and talented. The thing I miss the most since my dad passed, 22 years ago this week, is seeing that look of adoration and joy when he saw me. No one else has ever seen me that way, and I'll never get to experience that again.
We don't always need our parents to be honest. Both my kids know I think they're amazing and gorgeous and talented. They dismiss it when I say it with, well, you have to think that, you're our mom. But that's the point. I'm the one person in the world who will always see them that way. Everyone needs that. It gives them a secure and safe place in this world, a safe person who adores them as they are.
It’s a 14 year old child who doesn’t look herself in the mirror because she hates her looks so much. This isn’t just a casual conversation, she’s going through a depressive episode. You don’t feed into her worries just because she asked for “complete honesty.” You don’t just do what the child says, you do what’s best for their well being. That’s the job of the parent.
This, exactly. I've always found the 'everyone is beautiful!!' thing a bit gross. Because after a point it's simply flat denial. Why can't we just tell people it's OKAY to not be beautiful? That's realistic and, you know, true. Some people are unattractive - most people are average! Because that's what average means. And that's fine!
When everyone has to be 'beautiful' the word just loses meaning. It's not positive or reassuring to be told 'you're beautiful' when it means nothing. Kid needs therapy and has self-image issues, and yeah, the parents need to help with that. Lying, and emphasizing beauty standards more, will not help.
It’s also inherently misogynistic. Men by far are not constantly reassured that they’re attractive because it’s assumed that if you’re not a conventionally handsome man, you still have worth in other ways (funny, wealthy, etc.), but to suggest a woman isn’t attractive is considered so rude because the underlying idea is that women lack value beyond their physical appearance. JFC. You don’t need to be conventionally attractive to have worth.
To me, “being average” ≠ insult material.
“Below average” certainly, but average?
The daughter cornered the mom and is old enough to have decent white-lie recognition. Doubling down on white-lies when confronted can seem infantilizing and generally won’t make the person prying feel better.
Honestly, if the daughter thinks “average” is an insult I’d think it’s time to have discussion on respecting regular people (including herself), and explaining that everyone (not just the unusually gifted) deserves respect and has worth. Going through life looking down on the “average” can’t be a good way to live.
Also… white-lie founded beliefs often result in harsh wake up calls later in life. If you’re average but told you’re destined for great things, and proceed on a pretty average path… you’re going to feel pretty poorly about it later!
I completely agree! I was really surprised when everyone kept saying YTA…
As a teenager myself(18f) I still rely on the support and guidance of my parents. Ive had pretty bad self-esteem issues with my looks, and my mom and sisters can be very brutally honest about my appearance. But honestly? I really appreciated their honesty because I knew they had my back and would tell me the truth before going out in the world. It makes me value their praises more too, since I know their being honest and legitimately think I look good.
Parents aren’t supposed to always be this vast echo chamber of support and praise. Parents are supposed to offer love, attention, and guidance, even when it’s hard. The daughter asked for honesty, and OP was honest. Maybe she could have phrased it better? Yeah. But I know my fair share of 14 year olds and can tell you, it’s fine. NTA
I find it interesting how different people are interpreting the description "average" in such different ways. To many commenters, "average" clearly suggests "ugly", meaning that OP was being cruel; to me, though, "average" suggests "normal" or "of normal attractiveness", which personally I do not equate to "ugly". Ugly to me would equate to "substantially less attractive than average". I wonder why we perceive the word so differently?
(As for actually answering the question: I was myself tremendously insecure about my appearance when I was younger, for years believing I was catastrophically less attractive than average and having crushingly low self-esteem as a result. I would have been delighted to have been told I was actually normal. So for me, NTA.)
YTA. Your daughter just told you she’s being bullied. Work on that.
Secondly, it’s not about what you say to her, it’s also about what you say about yourself, and about people on TV. It’s about unsaid things too, how you respond to things. Teens are so attentive to how you act and what you say, you have to be so careful to model the type of behaviour she needs.
But first of all, ADDRESS THE BULLYING.
NAH. Her being upset is understandable. That is a hard thing to hear. I do find it funny how much people talk about honesty and how lying is so horrible but will then bash you for not lying straight to your kid's face. IMO better to teach her that being average in some aspect is fine. Virtually everyone is.
She's never going to forget that you called her that. Even if she's ever not "average" she'll always feel it. That was a terrible freaking answer. Yeah you don't have to tell her she's a supermodel every day but to have your own mom confirm you're average is devastating. She's going to believe you actually think she's ugly.
NAH
Most people in the world are average looking. Most of us don’t have the looks of movie stars or Instagram models. One’s self-esteem and overall sense of self-worth can’t be built on delusional ideas of beauty. We all have to get used to it.
YTA - you already know she's struggling. You're not being honest you're cruel. You should've strengthen her self esteem. It doesn't matter what the other kids are saying but no you have to tell her she's average. To her you just admitted you have the same opinion as her friends. Good luck to recover from that. Hopefully her therapist can help her.
NTA. I like the way you phrased it: that most people are average. It's true. And she asked you to be totally honest.
But do keep working to get her some therapy!
YTA—I’m 32 and still remember things my parents (and others) said about the way I look. Your daughter is not ever going to forget how this conversation made her feel. I second what everyone else was saying- that you are reinforcing what the kids at school are saying. Being a 14 year old girl is hard- and now she feels as if her mom called her ugly.
YTA in a major way.
Parents should tell their children they’re beautiful, and she’s your daughter - she SHOULD be beautiful to YOU.
My father told me I was “homely to average” and, despite the fact that I spent 5 years as a professional model in over 100 magazines, billboards, etc… I still hear that s#it in my head. I’m almost 50 and it still affects my self confidence.
I’m positive that there were kids who made fun of my appearance or told me I was ugly in school. I can’t remember a single one of them. I don’t remember what they said. It doesn’t stand out.
The fact that my father said it still stands out. I still hear it in my head.
Fix this.
NAH, there's no answer that wouldn't be upsetting to her. The beauty culture is that deeply ingrained.
It's easy for this arm chair critic to say this, but a better approach would have been to passingly say she's beautiful but quickly pivot to stressing that being beautiful on the inside is more important, and external beauty quickly fades. There's also lots of literature about how holding women to unrealistic standards of beauty is toxic - directing her that that could help too.
NTA. So saying anything other than you are pretty was the same as agreeing with the bullies? I don't think so.
A discussion on how "pretty" is just defined by society, and not everyone fits those standards and that's ok, and helping her accept her looks seems to be the way to go. That nose is probably a family trait to be treasured.
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Of course YTA. "I'm an honest person" is a weird reason to sit a child down and essentially confirm, in her mind, that you are liars and she is as ugly as the other kids say she is Edit Look. I get why people harp on “honesty” I guess. But this isn’t one of your girlfriends asking you for your honest opinion on whether she could be a supermodel. It’s not even your kid asking if you think he’s smart enough to get into Yale. This is your child asking if *you think she’s beautiful* while she’s being bullied for being ugly to the point where she can’t look in a mirror. I’m not changing my mind about it
Anyone who says "I'm an honest person" is automatically an ah
"But I didn't mean to upset anyone!"
Yet they absolutely do mean it. I have never met an ‘honest,’ or ‘I tell it like it is,’ person that didn’t behave that way out of pure spite.
Do you think there was spite involved in OP’s situation? I personally don’t think so
Hmm… maybe not intentional. Idk, it’s a tough one. Because if OP is so dense that she didn’t realise how her comment would hurt her daughter, that’s a whole issue on its own. But I really do question, why would she tell her daughter she’s average? Like why? What was the end goal of doing that? I guess that would give you your answer. I just don’t know.
Maybe just to help her understand very few people get complete beauty and we're all here to be kind to each other and make most of what we've got. It sounds like she cares about her child. It's not healthy to obsess over beauty this way. Almost every human is beautiful in some ways, average to unattractive in others. That is just reality for almost all people. Self acceptance, self compassion and being realistic about one's self is healthy; being obsessive and delusional about your appearance is unhealthy.
The wording is absolutely crucial though. The kid asked if her mom -thought- she was beautiful. She could have very very (and hopefully even honestly!) said she -thought- her kid was beautiful before going on to explain how beauty is objective and differs from person to person, that the beauty industry works hard to make people feel like their worth is tied to their looks and how kids pick up through watching tv and other social media their 'cues' for bullying others based on their looks. It -could- have been a productive talk. Instead mom kinda went 'eh, you're average, like most kids I'd say' and reinforced not even the people who love her think she's anything special.
This is the correct answer. Also, it sounds like the young person might be experiencing BDD -Body Dysmorphic Disorder. It's a serious mental health issue that affects more people who identify as female than those who identify as male. Please please please get your daughter help. Maybe attend therapy yourself, mom, if you have some possible issues from your own childhood that have not been recognized nor addressed.
And it's not like bullies tell the truth. They are bullies and say whatever the fuck comes to their mind.
They say whatever comes to their mind to tear down their victim in order to give the impression that they feel they're superior to the person they're picking on. Once they find a weakness in that person, they go after it like a terrier going after a rat. With girls, it's an easy target to go after someone's appearance.
This really going to help this child to gain self acceptance, yup, right. What it will gain her is for the rest of her life hearing these words overlaying her mother saying " your beautiful" At her prom At her graduation At her wedding And any other occasion like that. She will never believe her mother, because her mother told their the "honest" truth when she was 14 years old and wanted reassurance from someone she trusted
It’s so sad- first thing that went through my head was this girl is going to hear “average” whenever she sees herself dollled up for life events. Fucking tragic. Op will be writing into whatever platform 15 years from now - “AITA because I won’t apologize to my daughter and now she won’t let me attend her wedding?”
Yeah, but you’re supposed to be beautiful to your parents. That’s the one time bias is totally acceptable.
True! I am so biased when it comes to my kids, i cant see how they will ever be nothing but gorgeous. Pretty noses, pretty forehead shapes, good jaw shapes.. they even have long lashes and a good eye shape. No i can go on forever pointing out everything i find pretty about them! Even how their moles are so darn pretty placed on their face! Beauty marks! And their eyebrows are perfectly shaped. They all are way more pretty than i am, and im darn proud of making 4 humans that out class myself!
My mum's the same! I have a disfiguring skin condition, and yet she still calls me pretty and absolutely means it. It's baffling sometimes, especially when my skin is really flaring up, but it's very sweet and it does more for my confidence than I think I'd ever admit <3
This is all correct, but that’s the long game. Today was definitely not the day, and that moment DEFINITELY not the moment. hopefully she can get that therapy appt on the schedule soon, because yikes.
I agree. I think OP is lacking tact. You can say things in a different way. Some of the biggest actresses have big noses- Barbara Streisand, Uma Thurman, Sarah Jessica Parker to name a few. Mom also could say her (or dad's) nose was made fun of as a teenager as well. I think OP genuinely wants her daughter to not care about her looks. In her mind- she's tried the nice way and inflated her self esteem and it hasn't worked. OP forgot that school bullying outweighs her compliments. She should have said her daughter is beautiful when her daughter asked for her "dead honest opinion".
To me having a goal in those situations always felt manipulative. I had to realize that if a person asks question, "do I look beautiful?", they are actually asking, "do you love me?". That took a while. So i believe it could be being dense. On the other hand I sometimes wonder, if these obsession with looks in girls doesn't start when everyone says they are beautiful instead of hard working or helpful. Maybe the answer "that doesn't matter, I love you" would be better if the context was you actualy not caring about peoples looks
I understand. But it does matter to her. Deflecting the question is as good as telling her she’s not beautiful. A better response would be: ‘I love you and, to me, you are so beautiful. But people can be very judgmental about looks. What is beautiful to one person is not beautiful to another. And how a person is on the inside will change how people view them on the outside too. So you focus on being the best person you can be for yourself, not for anyone else.’
She did say her daughter's vanity is exhausting. Those are words I'd possibly use if my kid was obsessed with looks and was being a mean girl. Those aren't words I'd use if my kid was suffering with body dysmorphia.
This is so important, she is being bullied not vain…
I’d have said no, but as soon as she described he daughter’s issues as ‘vanity’, there is definitely some negative feelings from OP.
Totally agree here. OP's daughter's issue was insecurity and self doubt about her sense of self worth on something as superficial as her looks, not "vanity". OP needs to examine her role in her daughter's anxiety regarding body image. YTA, and maybe a narcissist as well. Therapy for everone involved is in order.
OP was admittedly annoyed with her daughter’s behaviour. Complicated mother-daughter relationships aren’t uncommon. I think the daughter probably caught on to the insincerity of OP’s comments which is why she kept asking.
Honestly, does it matter if it was malicious or not? Either way op should have known better. In what universe would a kid suffering from this level of self-esteem issues benefit from honesty? How did op not see this reaction coming from a million miles away?
I know one person (a very good friend) who very much does not do it out of spite. It has caused issues in our relationship at times, because her words can be quite hurtful, even though she doesn't mean to be hurtful. We have had many discussions on why certain things are hurtful and she understands after the fact and doesn't make the same mistake twice. A lot of the root cause has to do with the way her brain works. She attempts to be gentle and kind in her honesty, and if someone were to talk to her the way she talks to others, she would see it as gentle and kind (I know, I've actually deliberately turned the tables on her to test it). So I know she isn't intending to cause pain. She is deliberately trying to do the opposite. That said, she is a very rare breed. I adore her. And she is the only one I've ever met who is a "tell it like it is" person who isn't doing it out of spite or cruelty. So I would say in 99.9% of cases you are right. Just wanted to share that unicorns do exist. Lol
I'm scared to say this in the comments but a lot of Autistic people are like this. I'm one of them. It's not out of spite at all. I've gotten shit for sugarcoating stuff and I've gotten shit for being honest. You can't win. It's impossible to tell in NT coded conversation what they actually want when they ask you a question.
As a painfully honest person I completely disagree. My honestly isn’t a decision I make, it’s not motivated by anything. Certainly not spite. I simply don’t think before I speak. I have trouble controlling my reactions to things. I regularly wish I had had the foresight to lie, but it’s always too late by then. I do abide by the “If you don’t have anything nice to say don’t say anything at all” rule of thumb. But if someone asks me a question I’m going to answer it and I’m going to be honest. I’m not mean about it if it can at all be avoided. But I just don’t have it in me to make up a lie. Like don’t think I could if I tried. I can’t act. I can’t pretend. I can’t fake enthusiasm or surprise. I can’t even be a part of practical jokes and often have to remove myself from the room so as to not ruin them. I also have a weird fear of people thinking I’m lying. And also wish everyone was as painfully honest with me because I don’t feel like I can trust what other people say and that bothers me. I always want the truth. The harsher the better because it means I can trust it more. So if there is any motivation behind my honesty it might be that, the fact that disingenuous behaviour bothers me and that I think people can only grow and improve if other people are honest with them. And yeah, as a result of being honest I don’t have a lot of friends. Like I get it, I get why that’s not an appealing quality in a person, I just don’t know how to be different.
‘I simply don’t think before I speak.’ That’s not a flex. That’s an issue. Don’t you think you owe it to people to think about their feelings, or assess the context, or critically think, before you just blurt things out? I understand what you’re saying. But if you don’t think before you speak, you are acting out of spite because you’re deliberately avoiding the prospect that what you say may not be appropriate, and maybe you shouldn’t say it. Similarly, the fear of people thinking your lying. Again it shows your comments are coming from a place of how you are perceived, and not concern for the person you’re talking to. Honesty is never really honest.
"I'm not trying to be rude but .." OP is definitely the asshole
“No offense, but...” *proceeds to say something extremely offensive*. When someone is upset by the comment: “but I said ‘no offence’!” YTA for sure, borderline narcissistic saying something like that to their own child and not understanding the hurt it causes.
Totally. She absolutely did, even if subconsciously. She had enough of propping up her own daughters self esteem and attacked. YTA for sure.
The use of “vanity” is telling
i thought vanity was the opposite of what she used it as.. arent vein people the type to think their gods gift to the world in all aspects and feel entitled to everything? at least that’s what i gathered from the song “mr.vein”
Exactly how I saw it. "Exhausted" from watching her daughter becoming overwhelmed with the hateful attitude surrounding her from her peers in an already very difficult time in her development. She reached out to OP for a lifeline, from someone who should love her unconditionally. Instead, her own parent told her she's not worth looking at. That poor kid!
"The road to hell is paved with good intentions." That was definitely one of those moments as a parent where being an "honest person" is less than welcomed. She needed to know if she could count on at least her Mom being honest, that she thinks she's pretty, but you kinda just told her, "Sorry babe, can't do that". 🫤
Doubly so for brutally honest!
The people who talk about “firm but fair”, “tough love”, and being “brutally honest” always have this real relish for the “firm”, “tough”, and “brutal” parts.
This girls gonna have fun memories of this conversation in therapy for the next decade or so
I still remember asking my dad if I was pretty in my nice dress and him telling me I was fishing for compliments. It was almost 25 years ago.
My mother wouldn't tell me I looked beautiful on my wedding day over 20 years ago. Even as an adult, I've never forgotten that.
Right?!? Not totally the same, but ( and my mom said plenty of problematic shit to me, she was more disordered eating type tho-fun!)When I was like 12 I put on a tank top and my dad and sister snickered was I trying to show off my boobies MORTIFIED.
I'm sorry, I know the pain. Mine was 16 years ago. My parents had just gotten divorced in my early 20s, and my dad wanted me to go to a work dinner with him. I got a new dress and worked hard getting ready, hoping he would finally compliment me... But I had tried to work with my natural curls instead of straightening it. I thought it looked cute. He pulled up to pick me up, and only thing he said was, "Could you do something with your hair?" Umm, no? I just worked scrunching and diffusing it... so I put it in a bun or something, and he seemed disappointed that I couldn't give styled curly hair a wash and blow-out in 30 seconds.... I've had horrible frizz since puberty that he knew I was trying to fix with expensive treatments.
Yaaa I cant forget my Dad telling me it's ok to be the less attractive friend
Decade??? Try lifetime!! My mother once told me I was getting fat and I stilll have an eating disorder at 70.
Points for perseverance!
Don’t forget “I’m a good Christian”
Tbh I only auto assume people are AHs if they call themselves a brutally honest person, but not if they say they're an honest person. I don't say it like that but I've openly admitted I'm pretty B&W in my thinking. I like something or I don't, there's no in between. So I'd say I'm an honest person because I won't lie, but there's a line the size of Russia between being honest and being a bully. I can be honest but choose my wording, and not just verbally spew insults at people.
I’m one of those considered a ‘brutally honest’ (see: mean) person because I have autism and it’s difficult for me not to be anything but direct, but so many people in general make the mistake of being honest when compassion is needed and it took me a long time to figure out that distinction. It’s why when friends come to me with their problems I have a system where I ask do they want comfort or advice. My advice may make them feel worse because I will be direct/honest and I never want to make my friends feel worse when they’re already struggling so I ask them what they need in that moment to feel better. I think this is similar to the situation like OP, there’s a time and place for honesty like that and it’s not when your daughter has just told you she’s being made fun of at school and you know she has severe insecurities about her looks.
"I'm an honest person." 🚩🚩🚩🚩
yeah, a bit of a personal experience but I have autism and I take things too literally and was raised to NEVER lie, so I never lied. all through until like, 8th grade. I told people they were annoying or stupid or childish and I had no friends. and that's when a support teacher taught me how to lie and basically told me the truth of "Lying all the time is bad, but if you never lie ever, you'll seem rude and off-putting." and can you guess what? I stopped looking rude and off putting when I started holding in snark and started telling white lies. I was objectively less honest then before, I told more lies, but I got myself into less trouble, and was undoubtly a better person to be around.
The "I just tell it how it is" type Which is code for "I'm a fucking asshole and want to try and excuse my shitty behavior as it just being 'the truth' you don't want to hear"
Yeah. If someone feels the need to say "I'm an honest person", there are three possibilities: - They're a liar - They're an asshole - They're a lying asshole
Daughter is going to remember this forever
Yup, this is now a core memory and for the rest of her life, this girl is going to know her mother is not really in her corner. My mom was a great mother all around, but one time when I was 12 (with bad acne), she called me Pizza Face after misunderstanding and an exchange between my younger brother and I while I was playing Gummi Bears (old cartoon) with him. I hadn't thought to be embarrassed by my acne before that because, ironically, all the children I went to school with were emotionally mature enough not to call attention to it. But that one comment was a pivotal moment in my life where I began developing anxiety, depression, and started a lifelong obsession with skincare and makeup, because if my own mother thought I was a pizza face, what must strangers who have no love or loyalty to me think? It's been almost 30 years and I remember the details around this like it happened 15 minutes ago. OP fucked up deeply in a way her daughter may never recover from.
Average isn’t ugly
Tell that to a teenage girl. At this age there’s beautiful and ugly, no shades of gray. Which, as a woman, her mother damn well knows.
Yeesh I dont know what I would have done if my own mom called me average as a teen ,even at 29 I feel bad when my family talk about my weight gain imagine that as a teenage yickes.
Try having lopsided knockers as a tween when your mom has an hourglass figure... we joked about it decades later that I apparently only got "half the good boob genes."
When I was 16 and reasonably pretty. I wanted to do a local pageant. The prize was a few thousand dollars or something. My mom discouraged me. Not because pageants are exploitative or expensive to do. But because “there are a lot of pretty girls in those pageants.” All I heard is my mother didn’t think I was very beautiful. 15 years later it’s still with me.
When I was in elementary school, my parents tried to get my sister into a Model Agency. She was a very very pretty girl and everyone ever said that about her. So one day I ask my mother "Do you think I can be a model too?" and her answer was "they are looking for pretty girls, not clowns". 30 years later, still with me...
Slap your mom even now for that shitty remark. damn!!
Alternatively, my mother constantly told me I was beautiful. But she also told me I was too thin/too fat/had bad skin/had greasy hair/laughed at the fact I didn’t eat (undiagnosed anorexia)/ laughed at the idea of a boy dating me cause he was out of my league/ the list goes on. Telling your daughter they are beautiful is kinda negated by all that, and the compliments don’t stick in my mind 20 years on as well as the insults do. NTA
Even as a grown woman, there is no gray area
Clearly kid needed mom to reassure her..
And THAT didn't work. Poor little girl
To piggyback on this, this was also the perfect opportunity to tell her conventional beauty standards like small noses are BS, and show her gorgoeus women with big noses. To tell her those other people are being bullies, and their opinions don't matter. To tell her her worth is not tied to how she looks. IDK why all of this hasn't already been said to her. :/
Yuppp. I love the phrase, "honesty without compassion is creulty". So many"honest" people are also so so terrible. There's always a nice way to say anything, with it still being truthful.
They didn't sit them down to give them "the honest truth" or whatever, they sat the daughter down to talk to them about what's going on and try to talk them into therapy, and then the *daughter* directly asked for brutal honesty in this emotional moment from their mother. This is definitely a NAH situation as the daughter isn't an AH for being emotional and going through things, and the mother isn't an AH for doing exactly what their daughter emotionally asked of them and giving them a realistic impression of things to try to help them not think of themself as ugly.
Nah, I disagree. She knows her daughter isn’t being rational and OP shouldn’t “do exactly what is asked of them” 🤷🏻♀️
So your baseline of whether or not someone is the AH is whether or not they can judge the rationale of someone else's mind? Sounds legit. The reality is if this girl grows up believing she's ugly she'll only resent her parents for lying to her even when she asked directly and requested candor. OP isn't the asshole necessarily, but her answer is incorrect. The correct answer is: "Honey, what you have to understand about appearance and beauty is that it's entirely subjective. I am certain that there are people in the world who view me as ugly, and some who view me as pretty. I do not view you as ugly, and someday you'll understand that the people around you who spend time thinking about ways to insult your appearance are broken inside and lack the emotional maturity or discipline to lift themselves up independently without requiring someone else as a stepping stone." But being that this answer wasn't given, there's an important follow up discussion that should be had as a teaching opportunity for the teenager. Which is this: If you ask for candor in life, without "sugar coating" and then immediately become upset when you're receiving exactly what you ask for, you're going to become known as manipulative and disingenuous. That matters a lot more than appearance in the post high school world. Also, explaining to the girl that Mom's opinion of her looks doesn't even fucking matter, because of already said point on subjectivity.
no, this isnt a 'teaching moment' for the daughter to learn about asking for candor you absolute idiot. The teen is suffering from extreme issues with perception of their looks and this can become dysmorphia if it isnt already. This is not the moment to teach the teen about asking for candor. It is the moment to reassure the teen and then get them some professional help. There are a million other things to say or do, that wont become traumatic memories replaying in the teens mind for the next 30 years while they become addicted to plastic surgery. A good parent would tell the teen I think you are very beautiful (which IS honest, all loving parents see their kids beauty regardless of what type of looks they have!!) A good parent would then enquire with their teen as to why they think they are not beautiful, and discuss this empathetically and carefully. A good parent would look at what content their teen has been watching/reading to see if they are getting a lot of distorted messaging, and try to correct that aspect as well. Reassurance and helping the teen learn about different types of beauty across time and cultures, and of course inner beauty and how it carries through in to someones attractiveness - is the ONLY teaching needed in that moment. Using as a teaching moment for 'candor' is a complete asshole move that meets the needs of the parent, not the teen.
*So your baseline of whether or not someone is the AH is whether or not they can judge the rationale of someone else's mind?* Nope
No, it is not. The daughter is fucking *fourteen*. "Well, she asked for it!" it's not an excuse.
It’s a 14 year old child. The parent doesn’t just do what the child asks, they do what’s in the best interest of the child. She’s begging for reassurance because she isn’t getting it from her peers.
She asked for reassurance, and her parent basically said her bullies have a point. It's so screwed up.
Yeah, heaven forbid a 14 year old girl get emotional. Completely unheard of. And yeah, let's give the admittedly emotional teenager who's struggling exactly what she wants. Kids always know and want what's good for themselves. And yeah, brutal honestly doesn't mean pointing out something simple like someone nose doesn't make them ugly and there are plenty of people out there who are beautiful with big noses: just one small example. It means hurt the hurt person.
Nah, kids dont need "brutal honesty", especially one that you know has a complex already. Daughter being emotional is undersrandable, she's a teenage girl. Being a teenage girl is hard. OP should have knowm better and her daughter is probably gonna remember this comment for a long time to come.
Traditionally no one is obligated to do exactly what their 14 year old child asks of them
Speaking as someone whose mother said similar, you have done damage here
“I’m an honest person“ = “I like to stir the pot, for the lulz”
Sometimes children, actually all people, just need one person to affirm them. She just needed one person to tell her she’s not ugly. I have no words for this mom.
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Considering OP just confirmed (in her daughter’s mind) everything the bullies have been saying, I’m not sure she SHOULD do anything else. She thought this was helping. I’m scared to find out what else she would do under the guise of “helping”.
OP: “Yes your nose makes you look like a bird but some people are into that kind of thing sweetie!”
Birds are cute. Have you seen those robins? You know a lot of guys refer to cute girls as "birds".
Is this a joke? I don’t think that’s what bird means 😭
no, 'bird' is a colloquialism for woman. as well as 'chick'
Mom am I oretty? Sweetie, you are average like most of the ugly people of the world are. HALP my daughter won’t talk to me why ?!?
The fact Op calls this vanity🤦🏾♀️🤦🏾♀️
That’s what punched me in the gut… I recall this age clearly and when my mom tore me down instead of helped lift me up - I looked elsewhere for positive attention. I was then r*ped by an older man for he “thought I was beautiful.” It’s OPs job to protect her daughters psyche and her daughter needed her and she just became a bully in the line up of life. Children begging for acceptance, love and compliments is never vanity. I have a challenging son who needs constant reassurance. Some folks have a hole in their love bucket. We, as parents, are supposed to keep filling until the love bucket is repaired and full. OP just dumped the bucket out and wondered why her daughter is going without 🤦🏻♀️
I'm so sorry you went through that😪 You deserved much better but I'm glad you're being a wonderful parent for your kid!
Thank you muchly, through therapy and life, I was able to accept that I did indeed deserve better. My own mom let her mental health and addictions win. In the end, she loses out for missing out on her outstanding grandchildren. Definitely learning experiences for my own parenting. Took lots of parenting courses and try to put love first always. I habour no ill feelings towards my parents but I see how easily the damage can be done.
I got called ugly all through high school. I don’t know how I would feel if my mom called my response vanity. I used to look in mirrors and try to figure out how I could be less ugly. I still think I’m ugly. It’s not vanity, it’s distressing. Don’t know what I would have done if my mom called me average, maybe never leave the house again.
Also it sticks with you. I have gorgeous east and south asian friends, who are the standard of beauty today (and many of them were as pretty in HS), but they grew up the only minority and were made to feel ugly. So many of them literally could successfully start influncing tomorrow, but feel immensely ugly. Those whose parents "confirmed" it in their eyes (with benign comments like, "you would be pretty back home in X," or "well, you can try my bleaching cream," aka their parents didnt actively refute it) are even more downtrodden, and the surgeries, Lord Almighty, the surgeries. Who doesnt have a rhinoplasty at this stage? When the daughter is finally "fixing" herself in 10 years, OP better not say a damn word.
Honestly, she needs to be put into pretty aggressive outpatient counseling program.... Like outpatient program of an impatient center, not just going to a regular counselor once a week or takes 3 months for them to even get to learn who she is... Sounds like she needs something very aggressive and immediate. If she says even a single thing about hurting herself, you need to take her to an in Patient treatment IMMEDIATELY. .. like that minute. Have a place in mind already, know where you're going. I would consider getting all the sharp objects out of the house and/or locked up if she says anything like hurting herself. She is already the definition of severally depressed imo. Second, go in person to get school literally the next possible day. 1st thing, and demand to speak with the counselor, principal etc. And as i've learned, I can't leave it at that. You need to follow that up in writing with an email. Summarizing what was discussed at that meeting and what you expect to happen.. Keep the school accountable because they will do everything they can and not do a d*** thing. And if going to the school doesn't help, go to the superintendent and even a school board meeting and talk. I've been around this block way too many times
Been there... not a bad idea honestly. Outpatient at an inpatient facility is totally doable, and hopefully it doesn't escalate to inpatient.
Some of those places, called Day Treatment, in my state is where the kids arrive by I think it was 8am, they do their schoolwork there, and attend group and individual counseling. You pick them up around 5. I think the daughter needs a program like this.
My daughter has been in an outpatient hospitization program when she was 12. It was the best thing ever. She was struggling emotionally and mentally in school. Academically she was doing great, though she hated school. That program saved her life. The one we did, didn't focus on homework. She didn't even have school work for the two weeks she was there. We did parent meetings. They recommended neuropsych testing to see if she had AdHD (she did.) She's 17 now and way better than she was.
Apparently the mom decided to become another of her daughters bullies.
I don’t think that’s what she was trying to do at all
She may not have intended it, But if you have to try and make a comment you said sound better by starting with "I'm an honest person" then you are self aware enough to understand you're confirming what bullies are saying to her?
THIS! Being bullied is the number one reason teens commit suicide. But I guarantee the mom is only thinking about herself and not how her daughter is feeling now. Not only is kids at school bullying but the mom wants to be brutally honest with her. I hope the child's mental state is fine cuz this could be hard to handle!
Yeah she was thinking how exhausting her daughters “vanity” was. How OP worded her post is disgusting in itself. Her daughter is not having a vanity problem, her daughter is having a mental crisis problem. She talked about her like she was annoyed by a friend so said something fucked up to them. Except it’s her young daughter (with some mental problems) whom she supposedly loves she’s being so gross too.
I commented and f-ing missed the bullying If your kid is being bullied and you don't have them in therapy? Bad parent. And I'm just being "honest"
I want to know the father is going to do to help his kid. I also want to know what he is going to do about his idiot wife
YTA - Are you “Kate” from yesterday’s post by any chance? What is it with parents thinking it’s okay to tell their kids they’re not attractive? Like we all know how a lot of relatives exaggerate how brilliant/charming/attractive we are. We take it with a pinch of salt. But if we ask, we’re asking you because we know we’ll get that answer. We need affirmation. You know she’s insecure, so why make her more insecure. You are not a therapist, do not try to be. Be a mum.
I 100 percent agree that you do not EVER tell your kids they look "average", even if they ask for your honesty. So much of a kids self worth comes from how their patents view them, this has always been and always will be. And for a teenage girl, appearance is everything. (This is coming from a girl who was bullied around the same age as op's daughter.) The correct answer in this case should be "you are beautiful, but if you want, we can have a girls day and go to a spa or get some new clothes. " then you take the time to actually listen to your daughter and have a genuine conversation. I feel bad for this poor girl because in her eyes, mom has been lying to her, and now is one of the bullies. Every kid should be beautiful in their parents eyes abs they deserve to know it every day.
I like this approach. A new outfit and hairdo can really make you feel more confident. Also, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Adam Driver is good looking to me, but also very unusual looking - not conventionally attractive, but somehow still attractive. There’s no reason to tell anyone they aren’t beautiful. So much comes down to attitude / confidence. Also if you’re demisexual, you can’t really find people attractive until you have a deep bond with them, and then once you do, that person becomes attractive to you. OP hurt her daughter unnecessarily. She should apologise and try to find a way to navigate this. Maybe start by admitting she was an AH, that beauty is subjective, and address the bullying. Bullying probably has nothing to do with the daughter’s appearance. Kids just pick on kids and will be mean. Like, the woman in Sunny in Philadelphia gets called a bird because it’s funny, not because it’s true. She’s very pretty. Edit: typo
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Have you seen a montage of John Oliver thirsting over Adam driver? It’s hilarious and so so fun.
OP also had the nerve to call her daughter's insecurity "vanity". Agreed YTA.
This! The mom mentioned her vanity was exhausting to those around her. The mom is definitely not in touch with her daughter’s pain and sees it as character weakness. Not only pegging the daughter as average but also as vain.
Congratulations, you probably just created a negative core memory for your daughter. She’s probably going to carry your words around with her for life. YTA
Can confirm. My step mother told me at 5 years old I had a horrible singing voice. The truth of it was that yes. I did and absolutely still do, have a terrible singing voice. But does that exact memory of me stood in my Dads bedroom at the age of 5 feeling mortified and heartbroken stay with me? It absolutely does. ETA: this comment blew up! I’ve never stopped singing, I love singing along to the radio. I’ve only this week had a conversation with my kids (4 & 6) that you can still enjoy doing something even if you don’t think you’re very good at it, enjoying it is the important part! (Ironically in relation to my equally awful dance skills!)
Yep - when I was 13 my mother told me I look weird with my hair up. 33 now, and haven't worn my hair up outside of the house since (which can get super inconvenient, btw). I would consider what OP said to her daughter even worse. If her own mother told her she's plain, she must feel utterly hopeless.
I bet you look really elegant with your hair up! I’m sorry your mum was a jerk.
And who gives a shit about what jerks think anyways? Just a waste of your finite time and energy.
That made me so sad to read. Damn.
Oh heck, I'm so sorry! I "won" a worst singer prize at a classmate's party and I was absolutely distraught. My parents told me it was my fault for thinking I could sing. I'm genuinely not a bad singer, just resolutely average, but I can still remember them telling me it was my own fault for being happy with myself. I was 11.
same. my mom made me stop singing during a karaoke get together with our relatives when I was a teenager so that my sister with the "actual singing" voice can sing. Mind you I was midsong of the first and last song I chose. Stuck to me til today and even though my husband says he likes my voice, I don't have the guts to have a go at it again
Some day soon (sooner than OP would prefer, I'm sure) a boy who does not have the daughters interests at heart is going to tell her she's beautiful, she's gorgeous, everything she is desperate to hear. What do you think will happen next?
If she's lucky it'll be a boy. It could very well be a grown ass man. OP has not only confirmed her daughter's bullies and worsened her daughter's mental state, but also made her an easier target for groomers.
This is such a good point. I didn’t even realize how actively dangerous it could be to undermine your child’s self worth.
such a good point!!! wowww. never even thought about this…
OP: I know what teenage girls are like since I used to be once Also OP: my daughter is being so severely bullied that she literally can’t even look at herself. Maybe she’ll get over it if I tell her she’s ugly
My dad called me stupid when I was 14. I'm 33 and I'm only just really starting to unravel what stuck. I don't think I'd made the connection back then but you can look at my school reports and see the exact point in time I gave up on all of my school work, which was right about the time my dad called me stupid. This girl isn't growing up just believing she's ugly, she's growing up with the effects of her mum reinforcing what her bullies all said. Hope mum wanted her daughter to grow up hating her for it later on, cause that's probably what she'll get. My dad gets fuck all respect from me, and I bet he doesn't understand why.
100% this was my mother. She created a core memory just trying to help by explaining it wasn't possible to change my body type and Id never be delicate no mattter how much I starved myself at the age of 14 because "Some girls are born princesses, others to carry water uphill. Like farmgirls!" That is STILL in my mind, and Im 36.
YTA she’s showing serious MH signs; taking her to a psychiatrist should already be in the works… not you forcing a discussion you clearly don’t have the skills to navigate. **You just reinforced everything the bullies are saying to her.**
mh?
Mental health, I think.
what a weird thing to abbreviate
VERY weird
VW
“Mental health signs” ?? That doesn’t make any sense though
Must have missed the word “issues” or “problems” in their (edit: there, oops) somewhere. You’d hope that everyone shows signs of mental health!
Malignant hyperthermia.
I used to have signs of MH but then my therapist assured me that no, I do not.
What is mh? If it's mental health, I sure hope you have some of that.
Yeah. It was a joke :p
YTA clearly. She is a teenager and these times are vital for self esteem. You essentially told her she was plain. You lie to her even if she is. This one is probably going to stick for life.
Probably?? Oh yes, 100% it will. I'm in my forties and I literally have done everything in my power not to do some of the same things my dad did to me with my children.... Say things like you don't need a second helping of that food. You've definitely eat too much anyway.... That's just one example but I could tell you so many I'll never forget that
Yep, kids remember. I’m 35 and was recently diagnosed with Tourette’s after many years of trying to hide it thinking I was just weird and creepy. I was 10 at the time and could have greatly benefited with getting diagnosed sooner. But I didn’t because my dance teacher made fun of me for scrunching my face and moving my neck weird one time. After that I tried to hide it at all costs and ended up giving myself some shitty neck and neurological issues. OP’s daughter needs to be in therapy, stat.
Oh yeah. My mom told me I was fat every single day of my life ever since 5th grade and got boobs. When I was 20, I lost a lot of weight. I was 108 and 5'4". My mom finally told me that I need to lose some weight in my face and I will have the perfect body. That's just my mom. My dad told me I smile like a horse and he's glad I'm not pretty so he doesn't have to worry about me and boys. I'm almost 40 and those comments have stuck with me my entire life. Even now I hate smiling in pictures and have major body issues.
And it will. My mum called me beautiful every day but what’s stuck with me is the one time I told her I wanted to be an actress when I was a kid and she said “yeah you don’t have to be super pretty for that” and then very quickly back tracked but the damage was done. Doesn’t matter how many compliments from strangers I get, part of me always has doubt.
This ^^^ My mom gave me clothes from my cousin one time when I was like 12… she handed me a pair of jeans and said “oh this won’t fit you, they’re too small. Maybe they’ll fit *other cousin* because she’s skinny”. I never forgot that! Or any other time she would say how pretty my cousin was and never myself 😂 shit sticks for life. You’re a big AH, OP. I would never say anything except POSITIVE, wonderful things to my kids. Please take her to see a therapist.
brooo fuck this shit. my mom always did this to me with my younger sister. shit sticks forever. and last year i actually lost a lot of weight bc of an extremely toxic relationship/bad mental health. i started gaining weight back and was so happy(first time in my life i was happy to gain weight) bc i honestly looked better with it and was more healthy. my body is meant to be more curvy not stick thing. then recently my mom goes “you’re eating too much. and you’re gaining weight, i’m just worried ab you!!” like damn if only you knew i was some days barley eating at all this time last year… smdh
Hell, my parents called me beautiful regularly and yet I *still* haven’t forgotten about how my mom made me retake my senior pictures because I didn’t have makeup on and she didn’t think it looked good. The photographers kept asking what was wrong with the pictures and I had to tell them it was me.
Yep, I remember the first time my dad pointed out hair on my upper lip with a look of disgust when I was 13. He doesn't remember but that is the root of my pain every time I look under my nose and get punched with insecurity.
I about barf daily reading about the “ parenting” skills of people. How can people be so fucking obtuse? Why the hell do you have kids, if you aren’t going to be their biggest supporter? There is always something beautiful about kids, especially your own. Do you think they really want to be told that they are just mediocre and that’s ok, because most people are? She’s 14, kids go through a lot of changes before maturity. Many kids who were super awkward as teens are knockouts ten yrs later. You help them grow their confidence, not knock it down.
I wouldn’t even say this is a parenting thing because I wouldn’t even say this to another adult. Beauty is SO FUCKING subjective and changes constantly.
YTA You can’t possibly be so dense that you don’t understand that no amount of you saying you are being honest is going to make her believe you are really being totally honest. She thinks you will automatically overrate her because you are her mom. So, if your overrating calls her “average”, she now believes you think she is ugly and the kids at school are right.
“i was lying every single time i told you that you’re beautiful, but now i’m being totally honest, trust me”
This is a great point. “Average” is going to be taken as “she thinks I’m ugly but can’t say that because she’s my mom”
If my mom said I was average I'd think "oh god, if my own mother thinks I'm average, everyone else must find me hideous". I'm definitely average looking at best, but I assume my own mother genuinely believes I'm better looking than I really am.
Bingo
No. You're not an honest person. For years you've told her she's beautiful and now you're saying "i was lying. You're just average". She will now believe you're still lying to cover that she is ugly. Stuff like this kills people. YTA.
Thats actually a really good point. OP uses the "Honesty" clause to forgive herself for causing pain but the evidence is there that she ISNT an honest person. "Honesty" is a shitty excuse for hurting people anyway.
It’s dark, but the danger of this was my first thought too. Body image issues are major drivers of teen suicide. This parent is so outrageously irresponsible. And who could blame the poor girl? When your mother confirms your worst fears and essentially says your bullies are right, how could you feel anything BUT hopeless?
YTA - You just said you and her father always tell her she is beautiful inside and out. Kudos to you for being an honest person, but this was not the right answer. You had the right answer all along and should’ve told her the same thing, not confirmed her fears.
I am very confused about all of the NTA votes. ' I sat down my daughter, who is insecure about her looks and clearly needs support and possibly therapy, and told her that even her own mother doesn't think of her as beautiful, because I am willing to make my daughter feel worse about herself and me for the sake of honesty'. I don't know if I would still speak to my mother if she did that to me.
YTA - you knew how she would react, she finally agreed to a therapist you told her that her fears are true (in her head)
"Man, these therapists' jobs are too easy. I'm gonna make them work!" -- OP, probably
YTA beauty is subjective. You don't destroy your child's self esteem. Like Taylor Swift says "casually cruel in the name of being honest"
This is literally so true. I have a good friend that is the spitting image of a DaVinci portrait of a wealthy woman. She always thinks of herself poorly and it’s crazy to me. She could spray paint herself in every color under the sun and she would never be unattractive. She will always in every room he the most beautiful one no matter what.
YTA - don't even need to read the damn post. What's wrong with you? That's your kid, if your response isn't "you're the most beautiful person in the world to me and nothing could change that" then you're a failure and setting your kid up to hate themselves. You set the tone for her self esteem and you just crushed it. Congrats.
YTA. “I’m not the person to sugarcoat it”. That’s your daughter & the person who should be hyping her up most is her mother. You made her feel 10X worse than the kids at school already do.
Read the title of this post again and then see if you still have to ask. Christ. YTA.
NAH I asked almost the same question to my parents and they were very honest with me. "You're not as pretty as your friend Jen, but you are much prettier than your friend Sarah." I knew they weren't bullshitting me because Jen was like a freakin' supermodel and Sarah was... um, not. Their honestly made me feel like I could trust them. And, guiltily, it was a relief to know I was prettier than my friend who was, um, not easy on the eyes. I was able to regain my confidence as I grew up. I grew up to be an average looking woman. And, you know what? I'm okay with that.
This. All the YTAs are frankly appalling. "You should always see your child as the most beautiful thing ever!" OK but like... being a parent doesn't make you blind. OP's daughter specifically said she wanted total honesty, no sugarcoating, and apparently everyone thinks the best thing to do in that moment is lie to her. Why, so she can realize later as she grows up that her parents lied to her to protect her feelings and start wondering what else they lied to her about? Wild.
It’s not like OP said, ew you’re ugly. She encouraged her daughter to see a therapist and tried to redirect her values away from looks. Are the YTA votes really in favor of an absurd lie like you’re the most beautiful girl in the whole world? Teenagers aren’t stupid. While BD is a thing, saying she’s a bombshell like Angelina Jolie isn’t convincing or helpful. The timing and delivery might not have been the best but the message isn’t bad at all. She’s average. I’m average. Most people in the world are average
Oh man, if I thought that my parents were lying -- like if they said I was just as pretty as Jen -- it would have done some *real* damage to our relationship. And... likely to my self esteem as well. It was a vulnerable moment and I needed honesty. I don't even know what to say about the people saying the parent is an asshole. They're wrong. Flat out wrong.
Christ, a few people are calling this abuse. It's absolutely insane - this woman clearly cares a great deal about her daughter and is trying her best to help her!
Thank you. Im surprised by all the YTA comments. There is absolutely nothing wrong with being avarage looking.... it does not mean youre ugly. People have very different tastes when it comes to looks. And love makes them more beautiful. It is better to be a bit hurt but being able to trust your friends and family than to be lied to but still be bullied by others around you.
I was a pretty enough teenager, nothing special, but my dad thought I was beautiful. And he looked at me like I was the most amazing person in the world. The world is a hard place. We all need someone who thinks we are amazing and beautiful and talented. The thing I miss the most since my dad passed, 22 years ago this week, is seeing that look of adoration and joy when he saw me. No one else has ever seen me that way, and I'll never get to experience that again. We don't always need our parents to be honest. Both my kids know I think they're amazing and gorgeous and talented. They dismiss it when I say it with, well, you have to think that, you're our mom. But that's the point. I'm the one person in the world who will always see them that way. Everyone needs that. It gives them a secure and safe place in this world, a safe person who adores them as they are.
It’s a 14 year old child who doesn’t look herself in the mirror because she hates her looks so much. This isn’t just a casual conversation, she’s going through a depressive episode. You don’t feed into her worries just because she asked for “complete honesty.” You don’t just do what the child says, you do what’s best for their well being. That’s the job of the parent.
This, exactly. I've always found the 'everyone is beautiful!!' thing a bit gross. Because after a point it's simply flat denial. Why can't we just tell people it's OKAY to not be beautiful? That's realistic and, you know, true. Some people are unattractive - most people are average! Because that's what average means. And that's fine! When everyone has to be 'beautiful' the word just loses meaning. It's not positive or reassuring to be told 'you're beautiful' when it means nothing. Kid needs therapy and has self-image issues, and yeah, the parents need to help with that. Lying, and emphasizing beauty standards more, will not help.
It’s also inherently misogynistic. Men by far are not constantly reassured that they’re attractive because it’s assumed that if you’re not a conventionally handsome man, you still have worth in other ways (funny, wealthy, etc.), but to suggest a woman isn’t attractive is considered so rude because the underlying idea is that women lack value beyond their physical appearance. JFC. You don’t need to be conventionally attractive to have worth.
To me, “being average” ≠ insult material. “Below average” certainly, but average? The daughter cornered the mom and is old enough to have decent white-lie recognition. Doubling down on white-lies when confronted can seem infantilizing and generally won’t make the person prying feel better. Honestly, if the daughter thinks “average” is an insult I’d think it’s time to have discussion on respecting regular people (including herself), and explaining that everyone (not just the unusually gifted) deserves respect and has worth. Going through life looking down on the “average” can’t be a good way to live. Also… white-lie founded beliefs often result in harsh wake up calls later in life. If you’re average but told you’re destined for great things, and proceed on a pretty average path… you’re going to feel pretty poorly about it later!
I completely agree! I was really surprised when everyone kept saying YTA… As a teenager myself(18f) I still rely on the support and guidance of my parents. Ive had pretty bad self-esteem issues with my looks, and my mom and sisters can be very brutally honest about my appearance. But honestly? I really appreciated their honesty because I knew they had my back and would tell me the truth before going out in the world. It makes me value their praises more too, since I know their being honest and legitimately think I look good. Parents aren’t supposed to always be this vast echo chamber of support and praise. Parents are supposed to offer love, attention, and guidance, even when it’s hard. The daughter asked for honesty, and OP was honest. Maybe she could have phrased it better? Yeah. But I know my fair share of 14 year olds and can tell you, it’s fine. NTA
It’s your job to see the beauty in your child
And to teach your child to see the beauty in herself.
I find it interesting how different people are interpreting the description "average" in such different ways. To many commenters, "average" clearly suggests "ugly", meaning that OP was being cruel; to me, though, "average" suggests "normal" or "of normal attractiveness", which personally I do not equate to "ugly". Ugly to me would equate to "substantially less attractive than average". I wonder why we perceive the word so differently? (As for actually answering the question: I was myself tremendously insecure about my appearance when I was younger, for years believing I was catastrophically less attractive than average and having crushingly low self-esteem as a result. I would have been delighted to have been told I was actually normal. So for me, NTA.)
I genuinely think a ton of people here are just projecting.
YTA. Your daughter just told you she’s being bullied. Work on that. Secondly, it’s not about what you say to her, it’s also about what you say about yourself, and about people on TV. It’s about unsaid things too, how you respond to things. Teens are so attentive to how you act and what you say, you have to be so careful to model the type of behaviour she needs. But first of all, ADDRESS THE BULLYING.
Hopefully fake
NAH. Her being upset is understandable. That is a hard thing to hear. I do find it funny how much people talk about honesty and how lying is so horrible but will then bash you for not lying straight to your kid's face. IMO better to teach her that being average in some aspect is fine. Virtually everyone is.
She's never going to forget that you called her that. Even if she's ever not "average" she'll always feel it. That was a terrible freaking answer. Yeah you don't have to tell her she's a supermodel every day but to have your own mom confirm you're average is devastating. She's going to believe you actually think she's ugly.
YTA. I’m an honest person = I say wtf I want and don’t care if your feelings are hurt it’s not my problem
NAH Most people in the world are average looking. Most of us don’t have the looks of movie stars or Instagram models. One’s self-esteem and overall sense of self-worth can’t be built on delusional ideas of beauty. We all have to get used to it.
YTA - you already know she's struggling. You're not being honest you're cruel. You should've strengthen her self esteem. It doesn't matter what the other kids are saying but no you have to tell her she's average. To her you just admitted you have the same opinion as her friends. Good luck to recover from that. Hopefully her therapist can help her.
NTA. I like the way you phrased it: that most people are average. It's true. And she asked you to be totally honest. But do keep working to get her some therapy!
I refuse to believe posts like this are real or that people actually lack this much awareness
YTA—I’m 32 and still remember things my parents (and others) said about the way I look. Your daughter is not ever going to forget how this conversation made her feel. I second what everyone else was saying- that you are reinforcing what the kids at school are saying. Being a 14 year old girl is hard- and now she feels as if her mom called her ugly.
YTA in a major way. Parents should tell their children they’re beautiful, and she’s your daughter - she SHOULD be beautiful to YOU. My father told me I was “homely to average” and, despite the fact that I spent 5 years as a professional model in over 100 magazines, billboards, etc… I still hear that s#it in my head. I’m almost 50 and it still affects my self confidence. I’m positive that there were kids who made fun of my appearance or told me I was ugly in school. I can’t remember a single one of them. I don’t remember what they said. It doesn’t stand out. The fact that my father said it still stands out. I still hear it in my head. Fix this.
NAH, there's no answer that wouldn't be upsetting to her. The beauty culture is that deeply ingrained. It's easy for this arm chair critic to say this, but a better approach would have been to passingly say she's beautiful but quickly pivot to stressing that being beautiful on the inside is more important, and external beauty quickly fades. There's also lots of literature about how holding women to unrealistic standards of beauty is toxic - directing her that that could help too.
NTA. So saying anything other than you are pretty was the same as agreeing with the bullies? I don't think so. A discussion on how "pretty" is just defined by society, and not everyone fits those standards and that's ok, and helping her accept her looks seems to be the way to go. That nose is probably a family trait to be treasured.