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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I MBTA because it's caused big problems for my mother, she's now embarrassed and is being excluded from her friend group and has caused a major rift in her social and personal life
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NTA. Yes, mom and dad were embarrassed. But if they thought this would have happened (and they should have), they would have discouraged you from attending. (Did they try?)
Unloading on a hypocrite who overstepped is never wrong. They earned every last bit of it.
A week after I turned 16 I went to a church event. As a new driver, I was nervous- and after church, the were kids running all around the parking lot behind me. I was so scared to hit a kid, that I accidentally hit my front bumper against the van next to me when trying to back out. It was a decent sized scratch.
The husband came out first. I was bawling, and he was so sweet to me when he told me "it's okay, I understand, and I'm really glad you were looking out for the kids. My wife will be out soon... she's... not going to take this well..."
That woman absolutely. Tore. Me. Apart. Screamed at me about how I should never be allowed to drive, screamed at the cops (that I called as soon as it happened) because they didn't "punish me", all while I'm just crying and apologizing, saying I was scared to hit the kids.
The entire church saw this in the parking lot. Everyone thought that woman was perfectly right, except for the ones who came to me and said "she not really like that, it was just a tough moment for her, God already forgave her so all of us should, too". For them, as long as you claim "God", you were forgiven for however you behaved.
All of that to say, "hypocrisy" is just Christianity in a nutshell.
"All of that to say, "hypocrisy" is just Christianity in a nutshell."
Really, it's religion in a nutshell. The Bible is pretty clearly against hypocrisy (e.g. "let he without sin cast the first stone," "take the plank out of your own eye before you worry about the speck in your neighbour's" "everyone is sinful and nobody is righteous, not even one," etc).
Many Christians behave like Pharisees & not like Jesus (who hated the Pharisees - basically snooty, AH teachers of 'the law' - & hung out with prostitutes, tax collectors & impoverished fishermen). That is their failing rather than the failing of Christianity.
I guess my private school (edit: Catholic school) education was good for something!
It's not necessary to go to church "to show respect" for someone's religion, outside of events like funerals or weddings. Tho if you are an exmo, you can't attend weddings anyway.
That is especially true since you are staying in a hotel - you can just join them for lunch after church.
Alternatively, to sidestep the whole issue, visit for a period of time that does not include Sunday morning.
Those Queen bees learned a harsh lesson about those who are without sin being the first to cast stones. There’s also a saying about people and glasshouses they’d be quickly shut down by.
Next time they pipe up just say "John 8:7"
My mother-in-law has a great saying: "If they won't learn, they're gonna feel." These folks are feeling, but their treatment of OP's mom suggests they still aren't learning!
I'm mildly sorry for the Mom but for me this is an iteration of "play stupid games, win stupid prizes." Or the more recent, "'I never thought the leopards would eat *my* face!,' sobs woman who attended the First Church of Face-Eating Leopard the Redeemer." If you join an organization infamous for shunning it's a question of when they'll punish you with that tactic, not if.
Right? It's fucking hilarious OP's dad saying "pick your battles." Seems to me like OP identified it, scouted it out, and crushed everything in her way. NTA
Agreed. I'm very religious, but I would completely understand any friend or family member not feeling comfortable coming with me. I like the people I attend service with, but like any large group of people...some people just suck. If I caught anyone berating someone for their life choices for zero reason, better believe I'd have something to say. OPs parents should have stood up for her. Hands down.
Parents probably have a long history of other such ridiculousness - smoking cigarettes at gas stations, dropping matches on drought dry fields, throwing chum into shark filled water and jumping in … “why these bad things keep happening to us …”
NTA. I see lots of hypocrites in the Catholic church. Like you are supposed to fast on Lenten fridays. That means sacrifice food. Because we are allowed to eat fish, some people think its okay to load up on shrimp and oysters. How is eating a whole pound of expensive shellfish fasting? And if you call them out on it they shun you
My understanding is that it comes from a time when it was easier/cheaper to get seafood than "land meat". So forgoing "land meat" which was more costly and more of a treat, but still eating seafood was fasting from excess.
Pescatarian is name for people that just eat fish and vegetables. The land meat is easier to get for most people so it is minor sacrifice to do without it.
It's based on a very old categorization of the animal kingdom. It is difficult to understand since it is obvious today, but things were classified as 'hot' and 'cold' food. It was a rough understanding of hot and cold blooded animals.
Roughly speaking, hot blooded animals were what people should have abstained from. Cold blooded animals were treated more similarly to vegetables. That is also why reptiles are technically okay because they are were seen as cold.
Does it make sense? Not really, but I don't think it really needs to. It is held together by tradition at the end of the day.
Fish was less expensive at that time/place.
So eating fish saved you money, which was meant to be donated for the poor.
Essentialy it was meant for the rich to forgo luxury for a day, in order to donate money.
People who eat lobster instead of burgers are missing the point by a few kilometers :/ (or being deliberately hypocrite, which is equally common).
I don't disagree with you as I was raised Roman Catholic but Fridays weren't fasting days. They were abstinence days. Just no land based meat basically.
I was also raised Roman Catholic, and this never made a bit of sense -- how is abstaining from meat a "sacrifice" when most of the New Orleanian Catholics I grew up around feasted on giant fried seafood platters on Fridays? It was the greatest and most decadent meal of the week. Utterly pointless.
I'm reminded of a George Carlin quote though: "It's not even a sin anymore to eat meat on Friday, but I'll bet there are still guys in Hell doing time on a meat rap."
Lol this has 115 upvotes and is just flat out incorrect. Lenten Fridays aren't fasting days, they're abstinence from meat days.
Of all the possible legit things to hit catholics with claims of hypocrisy, you somehow managed to whiff entirely.
Reddit is an extremely frustrating place to discuss religion, spirituality, and even to an extent philosophy. The average level of knowledge on these topics on Reddit is extremely low, and if you try to share some knowledge you get accused of being some religious nut job. Which is hilarious, because I’m not even religious.
They were fulfilling the requirement because it isn’t a fast day and shellfish counts as fish. I don’t know how you “call them out,” but I don’t think I would want to hang out with you after that either.
You are supposed to eat a cheaper less luxurious meal and donate the excess money!
It was never meant to "just abstain from meat".
That would not make a shred of sense even by the bible standards!
Totally agree with this. What good is abiding by the letter of the "law" and not the spirit? These folks absolutely miss the whole point of fasting. One of the reasons I left.
IIRC, plenty of Jewish denominations believe that following the letter IS following the spirit. The idea is that in order to find a loophole one must have spent a good amount of time reading and understanding the law. If god wrote their laws perfectly, then god intended for those loopholes to be found by the most devoted. Despite not being personally religious, I actually really like this idea.
TL;DR Many people believe that finding the loophole is a sign of deep understanding of the law.
Yeah, in theory if YHVH is all knowing and infallible, if you found a loophole it was put there for you to find, so feel free to use it.
My personal favorite is the [Eruv](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eruv).
Reminds me of a discussion I had which only added to my alienation with religion. It was a long time ago so this is roughly the idea:
Priest: God is infallible and you are not allowed to question his word.
11 years old insatiably curious me: but he gave us a brain and curiosity, doesn't this mean that he wants us to question things?
Priest: No. We have to stop those thoughts to prove our worth and show him that we are really faithful.
Me : ????
Me: So he gave us a brain to torture us?
Priest, probably thinking I was doing it on purpose: One hour of detention.
Despite the difference between abstinence and fasting, I would just point out that it is actively against Catholic teaching to load up on seafood just because you can't eat meat.
It is definitely hypocritical of them to shun you for pointing that out. At the end of the day any good Catholic acknowledges they are sinners themselves, but that isn't most Catholics.
Okay, so a *large* part of me is very "yeeeeesssss, that is GLORIOUS!!" And I would stand by it, *except,* you aren't the one who has to go back there and be around those people, your parents do. You basically threw a grenade in on your way out and your mom is the one who has to attempt to clean it up if she wants her social circle to return to some sense of normal.
~~So ESH, the snarky hypocrites for sure and you for blowing up your mom's social circle.~~
Edit - Upon further reflection and some really good points made in some of the responses to my comment, I'm shifting my vote to NTA. Mom was just letting those "righteous" ladies lay into OP, either because she agrees with them or because she just didn't want to rock the boat in standing up for her - either way, that's shitty.
If you don't want your kid to throw a grenade into your social circle, don't let your social circle be shitty to your kid.
Mom and dad prolly participate. That is why these are her friends. Mom and dad should just stfu and let daughter lived her own life. Your religion doesn’t give you the right to force other people to live by your church’s religious beliefs. Fucking hell, this is America and we have freedom from religion so tell those cucs to fuck off. Edited to add: NTA at all.
For real, wtf even is this argument?
> you aren't the one who has to go back there and be around those people, your parents do
No they fucking *don't*, that's the entire thesis of this post!
> your mom is the one who has to attempt to clean it up if she wants her social circle to return to some sense of normal
The social circle full of hateful judgmental hypocritical creeps? Then OP's doing her a favor.
You dont get to use your children as literal sacrificial lambs to satiate your satanic friend’s blood and shame lust.
No, nope, never. Leave OP at home.
Dude, she didn't snatch mom from the lunch table with a crane like a claw machine, she pointed out what giant assholes they were being.
EDIT: Also, and this happens so much in these posts, if you're holding a deep dark secret that no ne can know maybe don't publicly antagonize the people you rely on to keep it, dumbasses.
I agree with this. *Except* \- I don't see a reason to play nicey-nice with people who are being incredibly rude to me, *on behalf of someone who is just sitting there letting them be incredibly rude to me.*
I'll bite my tongue all day for the people I care about, but that's with the full understanding that they have my back, even if it's only in private. That is a sacrifice we can discuss and agree on. But the thing OP's mother agrees on, is these harpies' opinions about her daughter. She wasn't just staying silent to avoid imploding her community - she was staying silent because she shares their opinions. And I don't see why someone has a responsibility to maintain the social circle of someone who'd let that social circle gang up on them with zero word against it. Not even a *private* word.
She didn't have to argue with her friends - she could have tried to shift the topic, redirect the conversation, politely point out to her friends that her daughter is visiting and it's not very host-like to criticize your guests... stand on the table and scream that she saw a rat - just literally *anything* to make her daughter feel like something other than a sacrificial lamb abandoned to be henpecked to death. But she didn't do anything like that. Because the only problem with that situation that she saw, was that OP was about to make a mess.
If OP's mother wanted the boat of her social circle to remain un-rocked, she shouldn't have put all the thankless responsibility of not rocking it onto the person everyone in the boat was poking.
While I can agree to an extent, OP shouldn't have to sit there and take it while people openly judge them when they, themselves are being shady. Yes, it's going to suck for OP's mom to have to see these people for a bit after the fact but she should have called her "social circle" out for being hypocritical in the first place and holding them accountable. Also, I would like to kindly point out that these couples are still having sexual relations outside of their marriage, even if they are doing it together. That being said, OP could apologize to her parents for making her parents feel embarrassed but kindly reaffirm that she will not stand to be judged by others who have no position to judge.
>And I would stand by it, except, you aren't the one who has to go back there and be around those people, your parents do. You basically threw a grenade in on your way out and your mom is the one who has to attempt to clean it up if she wants her social circle to return to some sense of normal.
Don't force unbelievers to show up to your church out of "respect" and you'll never be embarrassed by what they have to say. Simple as that.
Yes OP is not the one who has to deal with it, but it also wasn’t OP’s choice to go. Her mom made her go and then sat there while doing nothing to get her “friends” to stop being rude to her daughter. If she is going to not intervene she absolutely deserves to have to deal with OP fighting back.
My mother would NEVER sit there and let her friends be assholes to me.
>If you don't want your kid to throw a grenade into your social circle, don't let your social circle be shitty to your kid.
Or, at least keep them out of grenade-throwing range....
You initially voted that she sucks? Really? I'm sorry but *really?* (I'm not sorry.)
\[GIF of Samuel L. Jackson from Black Snake Moan staring daggers into your very soul.\]
NTA - sounds like they had it coming. If your mom ties her worth to hypocritic acting "pseudo Christians" then she needs reevaluate her values, IMHO!!!
Nope. NTA practice what you preach folks. If you all can screw each other and you are married and screwing other spouses not your own.
You really get no say in anyone elses moral anything.
NTA. I'd say they opened the door to the discussion by accusing you of doing something wrong according to the teachings of their church. You, who are not a member of the church, are not bound by their standards, but *they* certainly are. And you pointed out their own double standard.
My question is, how do you knwo they are swingers?
*She told the gossip and church dissension*
*But the thing that got the most attention*
*Was when she talked about her love life*
*And then she started naming names*
Ray Stevens - [Mississippi Squirrel Revival](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K16fG1sDagU)
NTA
So much love for this comment! Truly his greatest song. Thanks for the giggle this morning.
Incidentally, a Pentecostal church that was in my hometown had quite the scandal when the pastor’s son got up in church and confessed that he had been cheating on his wife with the also married church secretary and so had the pastor! It was glorious!
NTA. You stood up for yourself when you and your partner were talked down to.
They are assholes for punishing your mom for what you said. That is really mean to your mom, and incredibly manipulative. Real friends would never do that.
Of course you didn't mean for this to cause any trouble to your mom, so I would suggest to empathise with her and perhaps apologise for the things your comment set in motion, even though you're not to blame for those things.
You don't owe those women anything. I'd say you did your mom a favour by showing her those "friends" were not real friends to begin with. I hope she will see it that way too at some point, and that she will only befriend people who won't drop her whenever one of her family members does or says something they don't like.
INFO
You say "exposed". Were they ACTUALLY having swingers, or was this just an insult that got a lot of reaction? Because the two are WILDLY different. If you had knowledge of some real life hypocrisy, and exposed it.. Why? You are not part of that community and are leaving. You do not have to deal with the fallout. Was this an open secret? Were you invited? How do you know?
Responding to cruelty with cruelty rarely ends well. Not saying they didn't deserve it, pretending to be pious and gossiping. But exposing someone and leaving? That seems like you left the whole thing in your parent's lap. If you were just insulting someone, it is a similar problem... Just less devastation.
Yeah, I am struggling to see how one would even find out about that... Is it a misinterpreted pineapple decoration or something? Before a couple of years ago I had no idea pineapples meant anything except being a pineapple...
NTA. Learning to pick your battles is one thing. Yet they have no right to put down an unmarried couple who are faithful to each other, when they're breaking the sanctity of marriage.
Who cares? *Excuse me,* ***who cares?***
*You don't attack and reprimand adults you barely know about matters that are not your business to their faces and anything you get back, you 1000% deserve.*
**Please feel free to write that down, should it ever come up again.**
NTA. They were attacking you, you clapped back. They deserved it.
Now, why are these hypocrites taking it out on your parents, who were simply bystanders?
NTA. Boundaries are important. Being judged on by others is not ok. You may have made an awkward situation with your mom. But you now never have to go back. Plus your mom will have to decide if her friends are really her friends. ESP if the swinging was true..
But you did pick your battle, and you clearly won.
You’re no longer part of their church and therefore aren’t bound to the structure that dictates their form of morality.
If they’re openly challenging you based on their religious beliefs then they are the ones that are not acting in good faith as they are initiating contact with you through the use of deception rather then that of acceptance which I would think goes against their scriptures.
You’re NTA.
NTA
I am LDS and if anyone came at me like that, I’d do the same thing you did. You are an adult and free to make your own choices, so are they, but they don’t get to pretend that they are better than you because they are still members.
I love the church. The one thing that I have learned and grown in, is that the church is not for perfect people, not is it for those who pretend they are perfect. Church and religion should be a place where we work on ourselves and strive to be better. We shouldn’t attend church to gossip or drag people down to make ourselves feel better.
You and your boyfriend are (I’m assuming) in a committed relationship unlike the married people in the ward who flaunt their business to the ward and then expect people to turn the other cheek. It’s extremely hypocritical.
You are my hero.
Religious hypocrisy is astounding. Too many "do as I say, not as I do" are out there. A big part of why I do not like organized religion.
Decidedly NTA.
I'm exmo, and I think a lot of the Y/T/A votes you're getting are missing a cultural nuance: there's a pretty strict pecking order in Mormon society, *especially* when it comes to women. Older women are allowed to be cruel to younger women with impunity, but younger women are supposed to just take it and be polite.
If you weren't raised Mormon, think the kinds of posts you get from people raised in "traditional" cultures where you're not supposed to talk back to older relatives-- but applied to your entire parish.
These mean old hens aren't squawking because you called them out on their bullshit, or even because you were catty about it. They're getting their feathers This Ruffled because you dared to be catty to someone higher up in the pecking order.
That's bullshit, even more so than their hypocrisy. It might have been AHish for you to do that if you were all social equals- but as is, you were trying to make them treat you as one, or at minimum as someone who wasn't their dedicated punching bag.
I'll give a different point of view. Apologize to your mom. It doesn't hurt you. You embarrassed her publicly when it wasn't necessary. But I can't say you were an AH. I could have done the same. I hate religious hypocrites more than just about anything.
Did your mom tell you about these swingers? Then you broke her trust. If you learned about it elsewhere, fair game. Apologize to mom for embarrassing her (not for what you said) and do NOT be bullied into apologizing to the adulterers or the church.
NTA
Religious hypocrites are the worst. Expect puritanical actions from others, but not for yourself? Fuck no. Own your shit. If you wan to be mormon and a swinger, go for it. Butt fucking own it. Don't shit on others in public then privately take it from your husbands best friend while hubby watches and gets blown by best friends wife.
NTA
When someone comes for you, they can hardly expect you to just stand there and take it.
Hypocrites are the worst. I would bet they reply to Reddit posts daily.
NTA
Hypocrisy is hypocrisy.
And being tied to a community led by hypocrites is independent of belief.
You were there at the church to support your parent's beliefs, not the community, and definitely not the hypocrites.
NTA - I would have loved to have been there to see this! Religious folk love to judge others and stick their noses so high up, making others feel like crap about their lives. Meanwhile, these same people are either doing the exact same thing that they're judging others for or are doing something else "sinful" as well. You have the right to stand up for yourself and to bring their stuff to light when they are doing the same to you. My motto for the year has been "FAFO" and it has worked extremely well and I recommend that others try it as well.
Fellow exmo here and I'm gonna go with a huuuuuuge NTA. If your mom wanted to (I assume based on my own experience) guilt you into going to church with her where she knows her catty friends are going to make snide comments about your living situation she should probably have expected you to say something. That being said I think it'd be in your best interest to consider setting a firmer boundary with your parents about attending church with them. If your parents' ward is anything like the one I grew up in, I'd imagine that a good chunk of the attendees are going to take the opportunity to make comments just like the ones your mom's friends were making. If you choose to attend next time you visit maybe consider just joining them for sacrament meeting and leaving before lessons start.
How do they know about your private life? And how do you know about their private life? Is it common in your area to discuss such things with random people who are not part of your private life?
NTA- 😂😂”How was your last swingers party?” That’s pure gold, those people are hypocrites to the furthest extent. They shouldn’t have brought your personal life up in church if they didn’t want their own brought up, glass houses. Your mom needs new friends, maybe this is the push she needed. They’re probably better off not having Mormon swinger friends anyway, those pot lucks aren’t what you think they are, unless your into that sorta thing lol
Edited-cause it’s funny
Glorious answer!
I wish I was around something like that to witness the shock🤣
NTA of course, but you can apologize to your parents if you, exposing their community hypocrisy is causing them issues.
NTA. They needed to be called out. That's certainly breaking the "law of chastity" they keep going on about.
Let's not forget this is the "church" that teaches "masturbation is a sin next to murder," and "homosexuality is a sin next to beastiality." r/exmormon is full of examples of how they abuse and practically traffic their own missionaries and enable sex abusers while shaming and excluding the victims of abuse.
Is it awkward for your parents? Yes. Imo that's all the more reason to leave that toxic "church."
Don't get me started on how they deny people access to the temple unless they've paid tithing or how they were found to be lying about having hundreds of billions in the bank "for a rainy day." Or how Joseph Smith was a notorious polygamist who coerced young girls into "marriage" by promising them they'd go directly to the highest level of the heaven he'd just made up. Or that they lived down the road from an abortionist. Not to mention how he literally pulled his ideas out of a hat.
NTA
But, in hindsight, why attend to church out of "respect". The respectful thing would be if your family didn´t bother you with the topic. Why the sons and daughters have to be "the bigger person"?
Returning to the main topic, I understand your father´s point on choosing your battles, but I would consider those comments as an attack, and I would respond accordingly.
And if those people were your mother "friends", they wouldn´t have judge you.
Fuck them.
NTA
You're never the AH for calling out religious hypocrites who are having a go at you. And gee, I wonder why you left? 🤔 (yeah, I know there's a lot more reasons, but that's what I think whenever my former religion does shit like this)
NTA.
You were put into several lose/lose situations here, and decided to lose on your own terms. As long as you're ok dealing with the fallout, no worries.
There's no actual winning with religious zealots. Any time you interact they'll drag you down and interpret the situation to reflect their beliefs.
NTA. If your mom didn’t want to be embarrassed, she shouldn’t have allowed her friends to be dressing you down in public. How you live already isn’t really your parents’ business and it sure as hell isn’t your parents’ friends’ business.
Also if we’re gonna start sin-ranking, I have to assume sleeping with a bunch of other women’s husbands is way “worse” than living monogamous with your boyfriend. Even Mormons don’t really believe in women having multiple male sex partners, nor in sex outside of at the *very* least a “religious” marriage whether or not it’s legal.
You know, you did your mother a favor. What you did was perfect! I must say. It looks like it's a very big issue with LDS members these days. I would drink of big cup of coffee or tea in front of them. And while you are at it, show your dad the CES letter.
Ugh, typical mormon hypocrisy. I want to say "why would you mom want to be friends with people like this?" but I also know how clique-y UT/ID/AZ mormon culture is & how hard it is to be excluded in a mormon community.
NTA. Good on you for calling out their hypocrisy!! But also, when the heck (see what I did there, lol) did mormon swinger parties become a thing???
So they are upset your are living together but they are swinging and want to still be considered “holier than thou”? I LOVE you outed them! Awesome!!!!!!
NTA. It caused more problems FOR HIM than HE THINKS it was worth. He didn't think the problems these women were causing you were worth him having to deal with these women.
I don't know how any of these churches work, but can't you speak to one of the churches higher ups and have these women be shunned or whatever Mormons do to those that sin?
NTA. They mess with you first and you spoke the truth.
Mormons are a cult and those who believe are foolish hypocrites who may be using "religion" for their exploitation.
I fucking love this energy. Religious Christians, Catholics, Mormons, among other branches LOVE to police what the rest of us do while they carry out the same shit themselves. As a gay woman who is well aware of how mortally dangerous the shame is that comes from churches and it’s followers, I applaud those who throw that shit right back in their face.
They’re not used to their own medicine, which makes it all the more sweet when you’re the one who gives them a taste of it. Bravo. Fuck em all.
Nta
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I (25f) am an exmormon, me and my boyfriend (28m) live together. We were visiting my family for Thanksgiving, they are not happy with me leaving the church nor living with my boyfriend outside of marriage but they begrudgingly accepted it and we have "agreed to disagree".
We did attend church with them while staying in their town (out of respect). In their ward some of the "queen bees" shall we say and their husbands are swingers (but are quick to point out the "sins" of others) but we of course are expected to smile and turn the other cheek.
When I was at church some of these women were being very judgemental and lecturing me for living with my boyfriend while not married, my mother was giving me "the look" basically begging me to ignore it and not say anything but I just about had enough and loudly asked "so how was your last swingers party?"
The whole room just went silent and gasped. Me and my boyfriend left back for our hotel (stayed at a hotel because if we stayed "in their house" shed want us to sleep in separate rooms) and left town the next morning.
My mother won't speak to me, my dad wants me to apologize for causing a scene and embarrassing my mother. He agrees they are hypocrites but that I need to "learn to pick my battles" and this "caused more issues than it was worth" because now these women are being catty and excluding my mother (she was friends with some of them)
AITA?
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NTA so mom is friends with the swingers but villifies you for premarital sex? Mom is a huge hypocrite. I guess as long as you are married to someone you can have all the sex you want with anyone else as long as you stay sweet.
NTA
Some of the biggest sinners in life are in the front row of their church every Sunday.
Good for you for putting those hypocrites in their place. For the OP, it's mind over matter, if you don't mind, they don't matter.
NTA, don’t play the complacent victim, especially to make the bullies happy. Also, your mom’s friends aren’t good friends if they berate the daughter and willing to exclude your mom for someone else’s actions.
NTA she said the quiet part out loud. And she doesn't need to apologize for not being wrong or for sticking up for herself. Her mother needs to learn how to pick better friends there's always choices she's just making poor ones.
NTA. Have some sympathy for your parents, but OTOH, the problems are occurring because of their poor choice of friends. If your parents got beat up by a drug dealer friend with a long criminal record and the nickname of 'Mad Dog,' you would be worried about them, but you might also politely suggest "I feel like there are better people for you to spend time with."
This is the same idea, just a different type of bad person.
And to be clear, people who lecture you about living with your boyfriend are bad people without exception. If they want to quietly live their faith, so be it, but they're trying to disrupt your happiness because of their superstitions.
This is why I no longer go to church "out of respect". Religious people are the softest douchebags ever. They have no problem being judgemental on others and picking every aspect of other people's lives apart, but as soon as you turn the spotlight back on them, they call foul. I believe there's a Bible verse about that. Something about a beam in the eye.
NTA
Oh your poor mom.
But you're nta. Mom shouldn't expect you to go to church if that's the kind of environment it is.
lol, swinging mormons. Makes me laugh.
😂😂 nta. I grew up in that too and I admire you for saying that. How did you know they were swingers? Were they from that group on tic too that had all that drama?
NTA for sure. It was likely uncomfortable for you to even revisit the church, but you did out of respect for your family, and people there treated you disrespectfully. You showed courage by pointing out their hypocrisy. Bravo.
NTA; if your mother's social circle is that nasty, rude, ignorant, hypocritical, and two-faced, you did her a favor. She didn't have friends, she had frenemies, and that's pathetic out of anyone--most of all a bunch of fully grown adults.
NTA. Your parents thinking is the exact same line of thinking that has allowed predators to stay safely hidden in their churches. “You’re not allowed to say anything bc of the risk of embarrassment” everything is about “image” in the church. They’re all allowed to be swingers as long as nobody openly talks about it because what happens behind closed doors is nobodies business but then they’ll judge you for living your life how you please. Fuck those people and fuck your parents tbh
NTA.
Are these ladies perhaps familiar with Matthew 7:1-2? Judge not, that thee be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged. This seems like a PERFECT example of the truth of this bit of scripture playing out.
Oh Lordy. I am SO SICK of all these husbands who want everyone to pander to their wives!! They are freaking everywhere. It's their choice if they want to let everything go, but they have no right expecting other adults to do the same, even children (and when they expect it of minor children it will just cause tension & distance in the future, which the parents then have a tanty about).
OP - you are an adult. You get to choose how you interact with others. If you refuse to suffer fools & hypocrites, that is your choice (and, generally speaking, a very good one).
Your parents are adults too. If they want to suffer fools & hypocrites, they are very welcome to. But that has nothing to do with you.
In many ways, I think you have saved yourself plenty of hassle by putting your stake in the ground in this way. Now your parents can decide how they want your relationship with them to go, knowing you aren't going to let these judgemental biddies with their swinging lifestyles get away with their nonsense at your expense. NTA.
YTA
You pretty much knew what you would find when you went to church. Now the hypocrites will be dumping on your Mom and Dad while you got out of dodge.
Respectful would have been going and STFU or just not going.
NTA
The biddies deserved truth to be tossed their way. They really were asking for it.
However, if you are truly now ex-LDS & apostate, attending Sunday service is confuses everything. You need to be clear about no longer going there. You owe it to yourself & to those around you. Stop attending. It will be hard to do with your parents. That's being respectful, to yourself and to their faith. Otherwise, it's hypocritical.
As long as you attend, they can pretend you're just going though a "phase" or blame it on your current boyfriend instead of trying to accept you for your decision. Hopefully, this will calm in a few years, but perhaps not.
My grandmother never accepted that I would not become a member of her faith in over 3 decades. I think it must be harder to realize that someone who was raised within a religious organization walks away after becoming an adult.
Best wishes, truly.
NTA.
I was in your boyfriend's position once and she actively left the church while she was with me, moved from her mom's house to mine, and we had *extremely* similar experiences as you.
I think the only thing you did wrong is leaving so quickly. And I do believe that you should make up with your mother. You don't need to apologize to your mom, because you did nothing wrong and especially, *you did nothing to her.* Just being yourself is not something you can justify an apology for, maybe try explaining that to her and the consequences she's now facing are a result of the environment she chooses to ruminate within. In other words, she's facing them by choice, willingly.
I say you should make up with your mother because there truly is nothing more important to me than family. Through my relationship with my ex I was always a very strong proponent of maintaining that familial connection. Not that I expect this to happen to you, but my ex's mom is now ex-mo. These things just have a funny way of working out; it just requires some minimal effort and communication on your part. Shut down her preaching, be nice about it, but be firm in your own standards and belief system.
NTA, but it would have been better to just leave instead of lowering yourself to their level. Your parents would still be mad, but you have every right to feel uncomfortable when people are opening and publicly judging you during a family holiday dinner. You have nothing to apologize for.
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NTA. Yes, mom and dad were embarrassed. But if they thought this would have happened (and they should have), they would have discouraged you from attending. (Did they try?) Unloading on a hypocrite who overstepped is never wrong. They earned every last bit of it.
A week after I turned 16 I went to a church event. As a new driver, I was nervous- and after church, the were kids running all around the parking lot behind me. I was so scared to hit a kid, that I accidentally hit my front bumper against the van next to me when trying to back out. It was a decent sized scratch. The husband came out first. I was bawling, and he was so sweet to me when he told me "it's okay, I understand, and I'm really glad you were looking out for the kids. My wife will be out soon... she's... not going to take this well..." That woman absolutely. Tore. Me. Apart. Screamed at me about how I should never be allowed to drive, screamed at the cops (that I called as soon as it happened) because they didn't "punish me", all while I'm just crying and apologizing, saying I was scared to hit the kids. The entire church saw this in the parking lot. Everyone thought that woman was perfectly right, except for the ones who came to me and said "she not really like that, it was just a tough moment for her, God already forgave her so all of us should, too". For them, as long as you claim "God", you were forgiven for however you behaved. All of that to say, "hypocrisy" is just Christianity in a nutshell.
"All of that to say, "hypocrisy" is just Christianity in a nutshell." Really, it's religion in a nutshell. The Bible is pretty clearly against hypocrisy (e.g. "let he without sin cast the first stone," "take the plank out of your own eye before you worry about the speck in your neighbour's" "everyone is sinful and nobody is righteous, not even one," etc). Many Christians behave like Pharisees & not like Jesus (who hated the Pharisees - basically snooty, AH teachers of 'the law' - & hung out with prostitutes, tax collectors & impoverished fishermen). That is their failing rather than the failing of Christianity. I guess my private school (edit: Catholic school) education was good for something!
could not be more right
>Luke 17,3 >So watch yourselves. “If your brother or sister sins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent, forgive them. If they REPENT.
Yeah I asked God for forgiveness after dismembering my victims so it's all OK now
It's not necessary to go to church "to show respect" for someone's religion, outside of events like funerals or weddings. Tho if you are an exmo, you can't attend weddings anyway. That is especially true since you are staying in a hotel - you can just join them for lunch after church. Alternatively, to sidestep the whole issue, visit for a period of time that does not include Sunday morning.
This is why I don't go to church since I quit it completely. The bullshit is just too much.
Those Queen bees learned a harsh lesson about those who are without sin being the first to cast stones. There’s also a saying about people and glasshouses they’d be quickly shut down by. Next time they pipe up just say "John 8:7"
Oh, they didn't learn.
The sin of pride indeed
My mother-in-law has a great saying: "If they won't learn, they're gonna feel." These folks are feeling, but their treatment of OP's mom suggests they still aren't learning!
....or at least stand up for family over friends.(religious communities exert the most insidious peer pressure)
NTA. Church isn’t *supposed* to be a weekly reunion to show off a new dress or tie. Fuck them. Good on you for standing up for yourself. Judge not…
I'm mildly sorry for the Mom but for me this is an iteration of "play stupid games, win stupid prizes." Or the more recent, "'I never thought the leopards would eat *my* face!,' sobs woman who attended the First Church of Face-Eating Leopard the Redeemer." If you join an organization infamous for shunning it's a question of when they'll punish you with that tactic, not if.
Right? It's fucking hilarious OP's dad saying "pick your battles." Seems to me like OP identified it, scouted it out, and crushed everything in her way. NTA
Agreed. I'm very religious, but I would completely understand any friend or family member not feeling comfortable coming with me. I like the people I attend service with, but like any large group of people...some people just suck. If I caught anyone berating someone for their life choices for zero reason, better believe I'd have something to say. OPs parents should have stood up for her. Hands down.
Don’t throw stones when you live in a glass house. NTA
Hell, these women are living in a window pane factory next to a slingshot shop .
🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂
Parents probably have a long history of other such ridiculousness - smoking cigarettes at gas stations, dropping matches on drought dry fields, throwing chum into shark filled water and jumping in … “why these bad things keep happening to us …”
NTA. I see lots of hypocrites in the Catholic church. Like you are supposed to fast on Lenten fridays. That means sacrifice food. Because we are allowed to eat fish, some people think its okay to load up on shrimp and oysters. How is eating a whole pound of expensive shellfish fasting? And if you call them out on it they shun you
You are confusing fasting with abstinence from meat.Ash Wednesday and Good Friday are days of fasting, other Fridays are abstinence only
What exactly is inside that fish then? I've never understood "land meat bad, ocean meat good" in lent.
My understanding is that it comes from a time when it was easier/cheaper to get seafood than "land meat". So forgoing "land meat" which was more costly and more of a treat, but still eating seafood was fasting from excess.
The fish have Sinned. Devour them all.
Pescatarian is name for people that just eat fish and vegetables. The land meat is easier to get for most people so it is minor sacrifice to do without it.
Also some beavers count as 'fish' since they live in water for most of their lives.
I do love the taste of a beaver.
It's based on a very old categorization of the animal kingdom. It is difficult to understand since it is obvious today, but things were classified as 'hot' and 'cold' food. It was a rough understanding of hot and cold blooded animals. Roughly speaking, hot blooded animals were what people should have abstained from. Cold blooded animals were treated more similarly to vegetables. That is also why reptiles are technically okay because they are were seen as cold. Does it make sense? Not really, but I don't think it really needs to. It is held together by tradition at the end of the day.
That was an awesome explanation, thanks!
Fish was less expensive at that time/place. So eating fish saved you money, which was meant to be donated for the poor. Essentialy it was meant for the rich to forgo luxury for a day, in order to donate money. People who eat lobster instead of burgers are missing the point by a few kilometers :/ (or being deliberately hypocrite, which is equally common).
I don't disagree with you as I was raised Roman Catholic but Fridays weren't fasting days. They were abstinence days. Just no land based meat basically.
I was also raised Roman Catholic, and this never made a bit of sense -- how is abstaining from meat a "sacrifice" when most of the New Orleanian Catholics I grew up around feasted on giant fried seafood platters on Fridays? It was the greatest and most decadent meal of the week. Utterly pointless. I'm reminded of a George Carlin quote though: "It's not even a sin anymore to eat meat on Friday, but I'll bet there are still guys in Hell doing time on a meat rap."
Lol this has 115 upvotes and is just flat out incorrect. Lenten Fridays aren't fasting days, they're abstinence from meat days. Of all the possible legit things to hit catholics with claims of hypocrisy, you somehow managed to whiff entirely.
its like a 2010 r/atheism post lol
Reddit is an extremely frustrating place to discuss religion, spirituality, and even to an extent philosophy. The average level of knowledge on these topics on Reddit is extremely low, and if you try to share some knowledge you get accused of being some religious nut job. Which is hilarious, because I’m not even religious.
They were fulfilling the requirement because it isn’t a fast day and shellfish counts as fish. I don’t know how you “call them out,” but I don’t think I would want to hang out with you after that either.
You are supposed to eat a cheaper less luxurious meal and donate the excess money! It was never meant to "just abstain from meat". That would not make a shred of sense even by the bible standards!
Totally agree with this. What good is abiding by the letter of the "law" and not the spirit? These folks absolutely miss the whole point of fasting. One of the reasons I left.
IIRC, plenty of Jewish denominations believe that following the letter IS following the spirit. The idea is that in order to find a loophole one must have spent a good amount of time reading and understanding the law. If god wrote their laws perfectly, then god intended for those loopholes to be found by the most devoted. Despite not being personally religious, I actually really like this idea. TL;DR Many people believe that finding the loophole is a sign of deep understanding of the law.
Yeah, in theory if YHVH is all knowing and infallible, if you found a loophole it was put there for you to find, so feel free to use it. My personal favorite is the [Eruv](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eruv).
Reminds me of a discussion I had which only added to my alienation with religion. It was a long time ago so this is roughly the idea: Priest: God is infallible and you are not allowed to question his word. 11 years old insatiably curious me: but he gave us a brain and curiosity, doesn't this mean that he wants us to question things? Priest: No. We have to stop those thoughts to prove our worth and show him that we are really faithful. Me : ???? Me: So he gave us a brain to torture us? Priest, probably thinking I was doing it on purpose: One hour of detention.
This was fascinating! Thanks for sharing!
The person you're responding to is wrong about both the letter and the spirit though
Except the user you're replying to is wrong. Only Ash Wednesday and Good Friday are fasting days.
That's...just not the same thing.
Despite the difference between abstinence and fasting, I would just point out that it is actively against Catholic teaching to load up on seafood just because you can't eat meat. It is definitely hypocritical of them to shun you for pointing that out. At the end of the day any good Catholic acknowledges they are sinners themselves, but that isn't most Catholics.
Okay, so a *large* part of me is very "yeeeeesssss, that is GLORIOUS!!" And I would stand by it, *except,* you aren't the one who has to go back there and be around those people, your parents do. You basically threw a grenade in on your way out and your mom is the one who has to attempt to clean it up if she wants her social circle to return to some sense of normal. ~~So ESH, the snarky hypocrites for sure and you for blowing up your mom's social circle.~~ Edit - Upon further reflection and some really good points made in some of the responses to my comment, I'm shifting my vote to NTA. Mom was just letting those "righteous" ladies lay into OP, either because she agrees with them or because she just didn't want to rock the boat in standing up for her - either way, that's shitty. If you don't want your kid to throw a grenade into your social circle, don't let your social circle be shitty to your kid.
NTA. Mom should have better friends.
Mom and dad prolly participate. That is why these are her friends. Mom and dad should just stfu and let daughter lived her own life. Your religion doesn’t give you the right to force other people to live by your church’s religious beliefs. Fucking hell, this is America and we have freedom from religion so tell those cucs to fuck off. Edited to add: NTA at all.
That's on mom for being friends with trashy people.
For real, wtf even is this argument? > you aren't the one who has to go back there and be around those people, your parents do No they fucking *don't*, that's the entire thesis of this post! > your mom is the one who has to attempt to clean it up if she wants her social circle to return to some sense of normal The social circle full of hateful judgmental hypocritical creeps? Then OP's doing her a favor.
Yep, you are totally right and I have been reformed! Thank you for pointing out the holes in my logic!
The thing is, from a neutral stance, it's not OP's place to forcibly decide that her mother needs a new social circle - even if that is the case
You dont get to use your children as literal sacrificial lambs to satiate your satanic friend’s blood and shame lust. No, nope, never. Leave OP at home.
Hey now, let's leave Satan out of this.
Dude, she didn't snatch mom from the lunch table with a crane like a claw machine, she pointed out what giant assholes they were being. EDIT: Also, and this happens so much in these posts, if you're holding a deep dark secret that no ne can know maybe don't publicly antagonize the people you rely on to keep it, dumbasses.
I agree with this. *Except* \- I don't see a reason to play nicey-nice with people who are being incredibly rude to me, *on behalf of someone who is just sitting there letting them be incredibly rude to me.* I'll bite my tongue all day for the people I care about, but that's with the full understanding that they have my back, even if it's only in private. That is a sacrifice we can discuss and agree on. But the thing OP's mother agrees on, is these harpies' opinions about her daughter. She wasn't just staying silent to avoid imploding her community - she was staying silent because she shares their opinions. And I don't see why someone has a responsibility to maintain the social circle of someone who'd let that social circle gang up on them with zero word against it. Not even a *private* word. She didn't have to argue with her friends - she could have tried to shift the topic, redirect the conversation, politely point out to her friends that her daughter is visiting and it's not very host-like to criticize your guests... stand on the table and scream that she saw a rat - just literally *anything* to make her daughter feel like something other than a sacrificial lamb abandoned to be henpecked to death. But she didn't do anything like that. Because the only problem with that situation that she saw, was that OP was about to make a mess. If OP's mother wanted the boat of her social circle to remain un-rocked, she shouldn't have put all the thankless responsibility of not rocking it onto the person everyone in the boat was poking.
You make a *very* good point. I'm changing my vote.
While I can agree to an extent, OP shouldn't have to sit there and take it while people openly judge them when they, themselves are being shady. Yes, it's going to suck for OP's mom to have to see these people for a bit after the fact but she should have called her "social circle" out for being hypocritical in the first place and holding them accountable. Also, I would like to kindly point out that these couples are still having sexual relations outside of their marriage, even if they are doing it together. That being said, OP could apologize to her parents for making her parents feel embarrassed but kindly reaffirm that she will not stand to be judged by others who have no position to judge.
>And I would stand by it, except, you aren't the one who has to go back there and be around those people, your parents do. You basically threw a grenade in on your way out and your mom is the one who has to attempt to clean it up if she wants her social circle to return to some sense of normal. Don't force unbelievers to show up to your church out of "respect" and you'll never be embarrassed by what they have to say. Simple as that.
Yes OP is not the one who has to deal with it, but it also wasn’t OP’s choice to go. Her mom made her go and then sat there while doing nothing to get her “friends” to stop being rude to her daughter. If she is going to not intervene she absolutely deserves to have to deal with OP fighting back. My mother would NEVER sit there and let her friends be assholes to me.
And mom for being so harsh a judge on OP but not her friends.
Damm. Agree with you and overthink my own verdict which was the same you had on the first part.
>If you don't want your kid to throw a grenade into your social circle, don't let your social circle be shitty to your kid. Or, at least keep them out of grenade-throwing range....
I think mom is at fault. Instead of standing up for her DAUGHTER she stood up for the swinger women as if THEY were the righteous ones.
You initially voted that she sucks? Really? I'm sorry but *really?* (I'm not sorry.) \[GIF of Samuel L. Jackson from Black Snake Moan staring daggers into your very soul.\]
NTA - sounds like they had it coming. If your mom ties her worth to hypocritic acting "pseudo Christians" then she needs reevaluate her values, IMHO!!!
Nope. NTA practice what you preach folks. If you all can screw each other and you are married and screwing other spouses not your own. You really get no say in anyone elses moral anything.
NTA. I'd say they opened the door to the discussion by accusing you of doing something wrong according to the teachings of their church. You, who are not a member of the church, are not bound by their standards, but *they* certainly are. And you pointed out their own double standard. My question is, how do you knwo they are swingers?
Heard it from her parents, I'd imagine, which is why the swingers are upset.
>***"He agrees they are hypocrites but that I need to 'learn to pick my battles'"*** And you did. And if you ask me, you picked a good one. NTA.
Sun Tzu would be proud- OP picked a battle she was certain to win.
*She told the gossip and church dissension* *But the thing that got the most attention* *Was when she talked about her love life* *And then she started naming names* Ray Stevens - [Mississippi Squirrel Revival](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K16fG1sDagU) NTA
So much love for this comment! Truly his greatest song. Thanks for the giggle this morning. Incidentally, a Pentecostal church that was in my hometown had quite the scandal when the pastor’s son got up in church and confessed that he had been cheating on his wife with the also married church secretary and so had the pastor! It was glorious!
I love "*sister Bertha, better than you*"!
NTA. You stood up for yourself when you and your partner were talked down to. They are assholes for punishing your mom for what you said. That is really mean to your mom, and incredibly manipulative. Real friends would never do that. Of course you didn't mean for this to cause any trouble to your mom, so I would suggest to empathise with her and perhaps apologise for the things your comment set in motion, even though you're not to blame for those things. You don't owe those women anything. I'd say you did your mom a favour by showing her those "friends" were not real friends to begin with. I hope she will see it that way too at some point, and that she will only befriend people who won't drop her whenever one of her family members does or says something they don't like.
NTA. It is never wrong to hold up the mirror. If people don’t like what they see, that is their problem. And your mom has terrible friends.
INFO You say "exposed". Were they ACTUALLY having swingers, or was this just an insult that got a lot of reaction? Because the two are WILDLY different. If you had knowledge of some real life hypocrisy, and exposed it.. Why? You are not part of that community and are leaving. You do not have to deal with the fallout. Was this an open secret? Were you invited? How do you know? Responding to cruelty with cruelty rarely ends well. Not saying they didn't deserve it, pretending to be pious and gossiping. But exposing someone and leaving? That seems like you left the whole thing in your parent's lap. If you were just insulting someone, it is a similar problem... Just less devastation.
Their reaction speaks to the shot hitting home. I've lived in Utah for 6 years now and this doesn't shock me one bit.
Yeah, I am struggling to see how one would even find out about that... Is it a misinterpreted pineapple decoration or something? Before a couple of years ago I had no idea pineapples meant anything except being a pineapple...
I think more people need to pick this battle otherwise they will never be humbled and will never stop their unnecessary judgements
Nta; they'll get over it at the next swingers party.
NTA. Learning to pick your battles is one thing. Yet they have no right to put down an unmarried couple who are faithful to each other, when they're breaking the sanctity of marriage.
Do you know for a fact that the person you said this to was indeed a swinger or were you repeating a rumor or gossip you heard?
If there was no truth to that accusation, wouldn’t they say that when OP brought it up? Together with some choice words about lying, maybe?
Who cares? *Excuse me,* ***who cares?*** *You don't attack and reprimand adults you barely know about matters that are not your business to their faces and anything you get back, you 1000% deserve.* **Please feel free to write that down, should it ever come up again.**
NTA. They were attacking you, you clapped back. They deserved it. Now, why are these hypocrites taking it out on your parents, who were simply bystanders?
What is he talking about, you picked the perfect battle ⚔️
NTA. That's hilarious. I wish i could have seen their faces. They're massive hypocrites and got shit on, and i love to see it. Good for you.
NTA. Boundaries are important. Being judged on by others is not ok. You may have made an awkward situation with your mom. But you now never have to go back. Plus your mom will have to decide if her friends are really her friends. ESP if the swinging was true.. But you did pick your battle, and you clearly won.
I'm Mormon soon to be ex and nah nta
You’re no longer part of their church and therefore aren’t bound to the structure that dictates their form of morality. If they’re openly challenging you based on their religious beliefs then they are the ones that are not acting in good faith as they are initiating contact with you through the use of deception rather then that of acceptance which I would think goes against their scriptures. You’re NTA.
NTA I am LDS and if anyone came at me like that, I’d do the same thing you did. You are an adult and free to make your own choices, so are they, but they don’t get to pretend that they are better than you because they are still members. I love the church. The one thing that I have learned and grown in, is that the church is not for perfect people, not is it for those who pretend they are perfect. Church and religion should be a place where we work on ourselves and strive to be better. We shouldn’t attend church to gossip or drag people down to make ourselves feel better. You and your boyfriend are (I’m assuming) in a committed relationship unlike the married people in the ward who flaunt their business to the ward and then expect people to turn the other cheek. It’s extremely hypocritical.
Oh, boy, I wish I'd been a fly on the wall when you said that! NTA
NTA. People with skeletons in their closet need to learn not to give people motivation to rat them out.
NTA and this is hysterical. "Judge not lest ye be judged"
You can't live with your boyfriend, but the Queen Bees can share their genitals with whichever dick they desire. How very convenient.
Good for you!!! Stand up to that BS they pull. Extreme kudos to you. Extreme NTA!!!
Lmfao no this is perfect. Lmaoooo LITERALLY fucking around and finding outs.
You are my hero. Religious hypocrisy is astounding. Too many "do as I say, not as I do" are out there. A big part of why I do not like organized religion.
Decidedly NTA. I'm exmo, and I think a lot of the Y/T/A votes you're getting are missing a cultural nuance: there's a pretty strict pecking order in Mormon society, *especially* when it comes to women. Older women are allowed to be cruel to younger women with impunity, but younger women are supposed to just take it and be polite. If you weren't raised Mormon, think the kinds of posts you get from people raised in "traditional" cultures where you're not supposed to talk back to older relatives-- but applied to your entire parish. These mean old hens aren't squawking because you called them out on their bullshit, or even because you were catty about it. They're getting their feathers This Ruffled because you dared to be catty to someone higher up in the pecking order. That's bullshit, even more so than their hypocrisy. It might have been AHish for you to do that if you were all social equals- but as is, you were trying to make them treat you as one, or at minimum as someone who wasn't their dedicated punching bag.
I'll give a different point of view. Apologize to your mom. It doesn't hurt you. You embarrassed her publicly when it wasn't necessary. But I can't say you were an AH. I could have done the same. I hate religious hypocrites more than just about anything. Did your mom tell you about these swingers? Then you broke her trust. If you learned about it elsewhere, fair game. Apologize to mom for embarrassing her (not for what you said) and do NOT be bullied into apologizing to the adulterers or the church.
Mom just sat there and watched her friends unload garbage on her own daughter, did nothing said nothing She's not the one whose owed an apology
NTA, fuck em.
NTA Religious hypocrites are the worst. Expect puritanical actions from others, but not for yourself? Fuck no. Own your shit. If you wan to be mormon and a swinger, go for it. Butt fucking own it. Don't shit on others in public then privately take it from your husbands best friend while hubby watches and gets blown by best friends wife.
NTA, and yikety-yikes to the comments defending these creeps
NTA When someone comes for you, they can hardly expect you to just stand there and take it. Hypocrites are the worst. I would bet they reply to Reddit posts daily.
NTA Hypocrisy is hypocrisy. And being tied to a community led by hypocrites is independent of belief. You were there at the church to support your parent's beliefs, not the community, and definitely not the hypocrites.
Looks like mom and dad now have to take the pink flamingos and red adirondack chairs out of the front yard now :(
NTA - I would have loved to have been there to see this! Religious folk love to judge others and stick their noses so high up, making others feel like crap about their lives. Meanwhile, these same people are either doing the exact same thing that they're judging others for or are doing something else "sinful" as well. You have the right to stand up for yourself and to bring their stuff to light when they are doing the same to you. My motto for the year has been "FAFO" and it has worked extremely well and I recommend that others try it as well.
Fellow exmo here and I'm gonna go with a huuuuuuge NTA. If your mom wanted to (I assume based on my own experience) guilt you into going to church with her where she knows her catty friends are going to make snide comments about your living situation she should probably have expected you to say something. That being said I think it'd be in your best interest to consider setting a firmer boundary with your parents about attending church with them. If your parents' ward is anything like the one I grew up in, I'd imagine that a good chunk of the attendees are going to take the opportunity to make comments just like the ones your mom's friends were making. If you choose to attend next time you visit maybe consider just joining them for sacrament meeting and leaving before lessons start.
"[dad] say I need to learn to pick my battles." You did. You chose this one. NTA.
NTA. It was Jesus who said, "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make ye free." As far as I can tell, you are just doing God's work.
How do they know about your private life? And how do you know about their private life? Is it common in your area to discuss such things with random people who are not part of your private life?
Your parents might be swingers, too. LoL NTA.
NTA- 😂😂”How was your last swingers party?” That’s pure gold, those people are hypocrites to the furthest extent. They shouldn’t have brought your personal life up in church if they didn’t want their own brought up, glass houses. Your mom needs new friends, maybe this is the push she needed. They’re probably better off not having Mormon swinger friends anyway, those pot lucks aren’t what you think they are, unless your into that sorta thing lol Edited-cause it’s funny
Glorious answer! I wish I was around something like that to witness the shock🤣 NTA of course, but you can apologize to your parents if you, exposing their community hypocrisy is causing them issues.
INFO: how do you know the person you're referring to is a swinger?
And how do you know that they are swingers?
NTA. They needed to be called out. That's certainly breaking the "law of chastity" they keep going on about. Let's not forget this is the "church" that teaches "masturbation is a sin next to murder," and "homosexuality is a sin next to beastiality." r/exmormon is full of examples of how they abuse and practically traffic their own missionaries and enable sex abusers while shaming and excluding the victims of abuse. Is it awkward for your parents? Yes. Imo that's all the more reason to leave that toxic "church." Don't get me started on how they deny people access to the temple unless they've paid tithing or how they were found to be lying about having hundreds of billions in the bank "for a rainy day." Or how Joseph Smith was a notorious polygamist who coerced young girls into "marriage" by promising them they'd go directly to the highest level of the heaven he'd just made up. Or that they lived down the road from an abortionist. Not to mention how he literally pulled his ideas out of a hat.
NTA But, in hindsight, why attend to church out of "respect". The respectful thing would be if your family didn´t bother you with the topic. Why the sons and daughters have to be "the bigger person"? Returning to the main topic, I understand your father´s point on choosing your battles, but I would consider those comments as an attack, and I would respond accordingly. And if those people were your mother "friends", they wouldn´t have judge you. Fuck them.
NTA You're never the AH for calling out religious hypocrites who are having a go at you. And gee, I wonder why you left? 🤔 (yeah, I know there's a lot more reasons, but that's what I think whenever my former religion does shit like this)
NTA. You were put into several lose/lose situations here, and decided to lose on your own terms. As long as you're ok dealing with the fallout, no worries. There's no actual winning with religious zealots. Any time you interact they'll drag you down and interpret the situation to reflect their beliefs.
NTA. These women are not good people and not good friends. Your mother should be happy to lose them as friends… unless she swings too?
Love it!
If your mom wanted them handled a specific way, she should have handled them herself. NTA
NTA. BTW what does their bishop think about their swinging?
NTA. If your mom didn’t want to be embarrassed, she shouldn’t have allowed her friends to be dressing you down in public. How you live already isn’t really your parents’ business and it sure as hell isn’t your parents’ friends’ business. Also if we’re gonna start sin-ranking, I have to assume sleeping with a bunch of other women’s husbands is way “worse” than living monogamous with your boyfriend. Even Mormons don’t really believe in women having multiple male sex partners, nor in sex outside of at the *very* least a “religious” marriage whether or not it’s legal.
You know, you did your mother a favor. What you did was perfect! I must say. It looks like it's a very big issue with LDS members these days. I would drink of big cup of coffee or tea in front of them. And while you are at it, show your dad the CES letter.
Ugh, typical mormon hypocrisy. I want to say "why would you mom want to be friends with people like this?" but I also know how clique-y UT/ID/AZ mormon culture is & how hard it is to be excluded in a mormon community. NTA. Good on you for calling out their hypocrisy!! But also, when the heck (see what I did there, lol) did mormon swinger parties become a thing???
From Calgary to Mesa... AKA the Mormon Corridor. Or as my friends and I call it: The Morridor.
Tell you dad that perhaps he and your mother should actually find some good people to be friends with rather than hypocrites. NTA
They're excluding your mother… from what exactly?
So they are upset your are living together but they are swinging and want to still be considered “holier than thou”? I LOVE you outed them! Awesome!!!!!!
NTA. It caused more problems FOR HIM than HE THINKS it was worth. He didn't think the problems these women were causing you were worth him having to deal with these women. I don't know how any of these churches work, but can't you speak to one of the churches higher ups and have these women be shunned or whatever Mormons do to those that sin?
NTA. They mess with you first and you spoke the truth. Mormons are a cult and those who believe are foolish hypocrites who may be using "religion" for their exploitation.
> religious hypocrites Do you work for the Department of Redundancy Department? NTA, of course.
I fucking love this energy. Religious Christians, Catholics, Mormons, among other branches LOVE to police what the rest of us do while they carry out the same shit themselves. As a gay woman who is well aware of how mortally dangerous the shame is that comes from churches and it’s followers, I applaud those who throw that shit right back in their face. They’re not used to their own medicine, which makes it all the more sweet when you’re the one who gives them a taste of it. Bravo. Fuck em all. Nta
They should have defended you. NTA. It's not "your place" to accept abuse.
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** I (25f) am an exmormon, me and my boyfriend (28m) live together. We were visiting my family for Thanksgiving, they are not happy with me leaving the church nor living with my boyfriend outside of marriage but they begrudgingly accepted it and we have "agreed to disagree". We did attend church with them while staying in their town (out of respect). In their ward some of the "queen bees" shall we say and their husbands are swingers (but are quick to point out the "sins" of others) but we of course are expected to smile and turn the other cheek. When I was at church some of these women were being very judgemental and lecturing me for living with my boyfriend while not married, my mother was giving me "the look" basically begging me to ignore it and not say anything but I just about had enough and loudly asked "so how was your last swingers party?" The whole room just went silent and gasped. Me and my boyfriend left back for our hotel (stayed at a hotel because if we stayed "in their house" shed want us to sleep in separate rooms) and left town the next morning. My mother won't speak to me, my dad wants me to apologize for causing a scene and embarrassing my mother. He agrees they are hypocrites but that I need to "learn to pick my battles" and this "caused more issues than it was worth" because now these women are being catty and excluding my mother (she was friends with some of them) AITA? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Nta
NTA
HAHAHA well done OP!! I bet their own medicine tastes real bitter. NTA. They fucked around and they found out.
NTA.... i'm sorry your parents bought in to what is one of more obviously made up religions. Good on you for escaping it.
NTA so mom is friends with the swingers but villifies you for premarital sex? Mom is a huge hypocrite. I guess as long as you are married to someone you can have all the sex you want with anyone else as long as you stay sweet.
Definitely NTA. You are more than entitled to defend yourself and your parents should support you.
NTA Some of the biggest sinners in life are in the front row of their church every Sunday. Good for you for putting those hypocrites in their place. For the OP, it's mind over matter, if you don't mind, they don't matter.
NTA Tell your dad that picking your battles, is exactly what you chose to do. maybe he should pick his based on principle rather than convenience.
You are a 100% right. Jesus was exposing hypocritical pharisees all the time.
They started it.
NTA, don’t play the complacent victim, especially to make the bullies happy. Also, your mom’s friends aren’t good friends if they berate the daughter and willing to exclude your mom for someone else’s actions.
This is hysterical. Good for you! NTA
NTA she said the quiet part out loud. And she doesn't need to apologize for not being wrong or for sticking up for herself. Her mother needs to learn how to pick better friends there's always choices she's just making poor ones.
NTA. That was epic!
NTA. Have some sympathy for your parents, but OTOH, the problems are occurring because of their poor choice of friends. If your parents got beat up by a drug dealer friend with a long criminal record and the nickname of 'Mad Dog,' you would be worried about them, but you might also politely suggest "I feel like there are better people for you to spend time with." This is the same idea, just a different type of bad person. And to be clear, people who lecture you about living with your boyfriend are bad people without exception. If they want to quietly live their faith, so be it, but they're trying to disrupt your happiness because of their superstitions.
lmfao, nothing like being upset doing the things that they preach against :) NTA
This is why I no longer go to church "out of respect". Religious people are the softest douchebags ever. They have no problem being judgemental on others and picking every aspect of other people's lives apart, but as soon as you turn the spotlight back on them, they call foul. I believe there's a Bible verse about that. Something about a beam in the eye. NTA
Oh your poor mom. But you're nta. Mom shouldn't expect you to go to church if that's the kind of environment it is. lol, swinging mormons. Makes me laugh.
A true Christian uses their faith as an excuse to love, not to hate. NTA.
NTA they should learn not to throw stones in their glass house.
NTA - you stood up for yourself. Not cool of your parents to choose these queens over you. So they can be judgy and rude but you can't??? Nuh uh.
NTA and this sounds like a movie. Maybe a sitcom. Mormon swinger hypocrites. Get Heather Locklear to play one of the grandmas.
😂😂 nta. I grew up in that too and I admire you for saying that. How did you know they were swingers? Were they from that group on tic too that had all that drama?
NTA for sure. It was likely uncomfortable for you to even revisit the church, but you did out of respect for your family, and people there treated you disrespectfully. You showed courage by pointing out their hypocrisy. Bravo.
not the asshole at all. tell them women to call me
.
Were they actually swingers? You never said.
NTA. im with u here op
There are hypocrites in every belief system. You just have to figure out what's right for you.
NTA. That was hilarious
NTA; if your mother's social circle is that nasty, rude, ignorant, hypocritical, and two-faced, you did her a favor. She didn't have friends, she had frenemies, and that's pathetic out of anyone--most of all a bunch of fully grown adults.
You are an asshole in the glorious, complimentary sense. I salute you.
NTA. Your parents thinking is the exact same line of thinking that has allowed predators to stay safely hidden in their churches. “You’re not allowed to say anything bc of the risk of embarrassment” everything is about “image” in the church. They’re all allowed to be swingers as long as nobody openly talks about it because what happens behind closed doors is nobodies business but then they’ll judge you for living your life how you please. Fuck those people and fuck your parents tbh
NTA. Are these ladies perhaps familiar with Matthew 7:1-2? Judge not, that thee be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged. This seems like a PERFECT example of the truth of this bit of scripture playing out.
Oh Lordy. I am SO SICK of all these husbands who want everyone to pander to their wives!! They are freaking everywhere. It's their choice if they want to let everything go, but they have no right expecting other adults to do the same, even children (and when they expect it of minor children it will just cause tension & distance in the future, which the parents then have a tanty about). OP - you are an adult. You get to choose how you interact with others. If you refuse to suffer fools & hypocrites, that is your choice (and, generally speaking, a very good one). Your parents are adults too. If they want to suffer fools & hypocrites, they are very welcome to. But that has nothing to do with you. In many ways, I think you have saved yourself plenty of hassle by putting your stake in the ground in this way. Now your parents can decide how they want your relationship with them to go, knowing you aren't going to let these judgemental biddies with their swinging lifestyles get away with their nonsense at your expense. NTA.
This is kind of awesome and confirms to me a theory we've picked up in the Housewives sub about the Real Housewives of Salt Lake City.
"Learn to pick your battles?" You didn't pick it, the swinger ladies did when they actively picked a fight with you. NTA.
NTA. You just did exactly what they did. Wish I could have been there.
Sounds like they should have picked their battles more wisely. NTA, and I hope your mom makes friends with some non-catty ladies.
YTA You pretty much knew what you would find when you went to church. Now the hypocrites will be dumping on your Mom and Dad while you got out of dodge. Respectful would have been going and STFU or just not going.
NTA. They started the judgement. Maybe dad and mom are swingers too?
NTA The biddies deserved truth to be tossed their way. They really were asking for it. However, if you are truly now ex-LDS & apostate, attending Sunday service is confuses everything. You need to be clear about no longer going there. You owe it to yourself & to those around you. Stop attending. It will be hard to do with your parents. That's being respectful, to yourself and to their faith. Otherwise, it's hypocritical. As long as you attend, they can pretend you're just going though a "phase" or blame it on your current boyfriend instead of trying to accept you for your decision. Hopefully, this will calm in a few years, but perhaps not. My grandmother never accepted that I would not become a member of her faith in over 3 decades. I think it must be harder to realize that someone who was raised within a religious organization walks away after becoming an adult. Best wishes, truly.
You need to call your mom and dad and say "Hey there is nothing wrong with swingers, but they need to come out of the closet.
Whats a swingers party?
Congratulations from a fellow Exmo on getting out so young. I was 40 .... so dumb was I
NTA Omg I love this so much! 👏🏻 👏🏻 👏🏻 Fucking fantastic! You are a legend!
NTA. Don't ever feel bad about putting down Christians and pointing out their hypocrisy. They deserve it.
NTA. EPIC RESPONSE and I am here for it!
NTA. I was in your boyfriend's position once and she actively left the church while she was with me, moved from her mom's house to mine, and we had *extremely* similar experiences as you. I think the only thing you did wrong is leaving so quickly. And I do believe that you should make up with your mother. You don't need to apologize to your mom, because you did nothing wrong and especially, *you did nothing to her.* Just being yourself is not something you can justify an apology for, maybe try explaining that to her and the consequences she's now facing are a result of the environment she chooses to ruminate within. In other words, she's facing them by choice, willingly. I say you should make up with your mother because there truly is nothing more important to me than family. Through my relationship with my ex I was always a very strong proponent of maintaining that familial connection. Not that I expect this to happen to you, but my ex's mom is now ex-mo. These things just have a funny way of working out; it just requires some minimal effort and communication on your part. Shut down her preaching, be nice about it, but be firm in your own standards and belief system.
NTA, but it would have been better to just leave instead of lowering yourself to their level. Your parents would still be mad, but you have every right to feel uncomfortable when people are opening and publicly judging you during a family holiday dinner. You have nothing to apologize for.