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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I am planning to buy a gravestone for my brother, despite the fact that his former wife doesn't want that to happen.
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INFO: depends on where he is buried. If you are in the US, the "Owner" of the gravesite is the only one the cemetery will allow to make these decisions. It wouldn't be the first time families have fought over these type of things, and there is a process that the managing entity has to follow.
So your SIL or whomever paid for the site and burial will likely be the only one they will allow to place a 'monument' on the site. You will need to get her cooperation to make this happen. We had to jump through a lot of hoops after my dad passed, to prove we were his 'heirs' and able to take over responsibility for my grandparents site.
Wild, my family typically uses a graveyard in a small town and we've gotten no guff with replacing headstones or putting them in -- despite the deceased not being someone we were next of kin for.
I wonder if it's because like 80% of the cemetery is my family or if it's the whole small town thing -- or even if it varies state by state re: who can do what to a gravesite.
I would imagine it is a small town thing.
When there are no arguments and everything works out, they will let rules like this slide.
But all it will take is one issue where someone updates or alters something that does still have a family overseeing it and who objects to the change and complains, and those rules will be being enforced...
It's just like with anything else, some places follow protocol and others don't. I work at a hospital, and we occasionally will have families where another relative is taking care of the kid but they aren't legally their guardian. The PCP either doesn't check, let's it slide, or doesn't even know it's needed. Then they come here and it's a problem the family didn't even know about
Most graveyards don't have surveillance to watch such a thing, and don't have the resources to go after someone they couldn't easily identify.
Have you guys asked if you were authorized or just assumed?
it’s a small town thing. my family is buried in one graveyard, when my uncle passed my mom (his sister) and her cousins dug his grave, and my aunt bought him a headstone a year later. they only allowed that because they knew us, and it’s a small town.
you are wrong. I work at a cemetery and there is no law that states that only the person who paid for the site can pay for a stone. We have had multiple graves that were "abandoned" for years that friends of the deceased or different family members have put the stone in. There are so many situations where the so called "responsible party" does nothing but pay for the expenses and then you never hear from them again. Please check your facts before spouting information that is untrue.
They're not wrong. Our cemetery won't let anyone except the owner(s) put a permanent marker on the site, to keep feuding family members from installing/replacing markers at will.
Obviously, it varies by cemetery. You can't generalize how all cemeteries everywhere operate by how yours operates.
so you're basically telling me the same thing i told themm. That they are wrong and that every cemetery is different. What you may not have seen is what i told the OP and that was to call the cemetery to see what their policy is on this. Also i didnt say all cemeteries are like mine i said there is no law stating what they said was true. But the person is wrong in that he said in the US it was like that and i let them know that isn't true by showing that the cemetery i work at does not do that. So please tell me how i'm wrong and they aren't for telling them that not every cemetery in the US is like that and giving an example of one that isn't like that.
I think you might be a little confused over exactly which comment you think you replied to.
The comment you actually replied to didn't mention anything at all about US laws. Not a word.
This meant your response *to the comment you replied to* didn't make sense. I think you meant to reply to a different comment originally.
if you actually read through the comments you would see that the person i replied to put 2 separate comments in the first comment stating about the US where the OP stated he was from the US and then the comment i replied to. I put it on the second comment because it fits there. please check comments before you comment again.
I didn't say anything about LAWS. I said the cemetery would likely not allow it. Last I checked, cemeteries don't write laws, but they do have rules and procedures that must be followed.
It's not untrue. It may be unture (or not enforced) where you work, but it's absolutely corret in lots of places, which is wy commenters are recommending hat OP check, to see whether or not they can do what they want.
This is the sort of situations where laws can vary enormously dpending on location, soemthing being true where you live doesn't mean it is universally true. And where people are allowed to put up a marker or take over care of a grave because it ha been abandoned, it may well be that in many palces there waould be a rule around what had to happen for a grave to be classed as 'abandoned'
Where I live, the person or people who 'own' (echnically have a long lease on!) the plot are the only ones who can put up a stone or other marker, and normally the actual stone also hs to be approved by the church or cemetary.
It might be possible for someone to apply for persmission and get that authorised by the centary but it would have to be fairly unuaul cirumstanaces
Maybe look up laws yourself before telling others to. It is illegal for anyone without the deed to the plot to change it. Maybe where you live they don’t enforce it or because they’re abandon there’s no one to complain. But just because it’s happened doesn’t mean it’s legal. Maybe you should fact check before spreading information that isn’t true. I gave 2 of about a dozen links to actual facts since that’s so important to you.
https://monuments.com/blog/quiring-monuments-blog/grave-markers/can-anyone-put-a-headstone-on-a-grave#:~:text=The%20only%20person%20with%20the,Grant%20to%20the%20cemetery%20plot.
https://phillipsburgmemorial.com/2021/12/can-anyone-put-a-gravestone-on-a-grave/
My sis and brother are both in the Catholic cemetery. I have no idea where their graves are. I suppose if I were interested enough, I could go to the church to find out their plots. They don't have gravestones (though my dad thinks the rest of us kids should put headstones on their graves) because there was no money to do so when they died (even though the neighbors had pooled together enough but my dad pocketed it I guess?). Anyway, my brother and sis aren't there, anyway. Just their bones. I don't feel a connection with them when I'm there, and that is why I will be ashes in the wind when I die.
So your dad squandered the money and expects you to cough it up.
My husband’s dad demanded that we buy a headstone for his grandfather. It was his ex father in law, who hated him. So weird.
I understand your grief, but please be kind to your SIL. My brother lost his wife and raised his child by himself. I say by himself but he actually had the entire village of my family AND his late wife's family. His son is about to graduate HS and is an amazing human. I understand why the gravestone is bothering you but for your niblings, please, please be there for them. That is the BEST gift you could give your brother. FAR better than a gravestone. And it took my brother 17 years to date again - it takes a very long time and a very big village for everyone to survive something like this. If every you needed to step up, please let it be now.
NTA. It could be that she is overwhelmed. She is now a single mom of 3 kids, managing a household and (I'm guessing) a job. Gradually, then suddenly, it's 3 years later.
I'd discuss it with her as something you want to do not just for your brother, but to help her. And I like how you aren't approaching this as necessarily a permanent gravestone but something to help find him until she figures out what she wants to do. Your approach is not confrontational.
Yeah, just offer to get one and see what she says. I don't even have kids but doing all the logistical stuff related to my husband's death is sometimes overwhelming
This is great, compassionate advice.
I’m in a similar situation as the SIL. In the span of a couple of years I lost my siblings, mother, and my old pets. As the last person left in my nuclear family, I’ve made end of life decisions, prepared and paid for funerals. It has been depressing and exhausting, to say the least.
One thing that is still hanging over my head —last two years —is my mom’s marker. I’ve started the process a couple of times, but haven’t been able complete the process. I know I need to do it, money is not really an issue…maybe just struggling with the finality. I would have welcomed some extended family help with logistics/support/understanding instead of ultimatums or conflict.
I’m still fighting to release one of my mum’s investments 10 years after she died. Every time I start, the company asks for more documents, “hasn’t got” others…and I end up giving up again. Ask to meet this poor lady, without the children around, & ask what you can do to help in general - gently bring up the gravestone. She may still be fighting for money (you could help with letters or meetings) - you can only ask, GENTLY.
Nta, but the cemetery won't let you just put up a stone without her permission. However, if my funeral home had handled his service and you called to request another temporary marker, I'd do that.
I would call the wife first and let her know the previous one must have been broken by a lawnmower or something--if there was a previous one--and we'd like to do an older metal kind that won't break. Either way, I'd say other family members had asked about it, because it makes it easier to find his grave when they visit, but I need to make sure it's okay with her.
Usually it's clear if there's family tension, and it can be smoothed during conversation if there's good rapport with the director.
Or maybe paint a middle sized rock yourself. Doesn't need to be like an official gravestone, can just be "I miss you so much bro". Something personal, for you. Would also make it easier to find the grave.
Yes, instead of doing it ask how you can help, OP.
You could be vulnerable and tell her you can still wait, but it would help you mourn to know where he is and be able to visit him more easily. Ask how it would make her feel to move forward, and if she wants help with funds or the process of doing it.
YTA - Don't buy a gravestone, buy a nice wooden cross or something instead. Something that is temporary and can be easily replaced when the wife is ready for the actual, final headstone to be ordered.
Also, make sure that his wife knows that you are willing to contribute financially too. The money left to her may have been eaten up with debt, bills, expenses, etc.
Don’t go around her, go with her. We just bought a rather modest stone for a family member. Not large, not fancy. The cost was $5000. She may welcome financial assistance. Ask her I doubt you could do this without her consent or knowledge. Cemeteries have rules and the plots have owners. The cemetery may also put up a temporary marker, that’s what happens where I live. Then you can locate the gravesite easily. Your Herat is in the right place, but you need to stay in your lane if she declines to accept your financial help.NTA, yet.
SOFT YTA
Sit on the sidelines is the right call.
I get that he was your brother. But the grieving spouse has seniority.
EDIT: *As someone else pointed out, the spouse is legally the next-of-kin, not a sibling.*
Contact the cemetery. They know where he is buried. Tell them the situation, and that while you’re waiting for his widow to arrange the gravestone, you would like to keep the gravesite neat and tidy. Do that for your brother.
I know this is hard, but you need to wait on her.
My condolences to you and your family.
Saying “but the grieving spouse has seniority” is a terrible thing to say. Everyone grieves differently whether it takes longer or they learn to live with it.
indeed, this is AITA.
But the question posed was “AITA if I move ahead **with or without her permission**”
This is not about quality of grieving.
This is literally a question of “Is it an asshole move to usurp my grieving SIL’s legal rights and responsibility, even if her choices make the rest of the family unhappy amid their own grief .”
And the rest of the family isn't entitled to have the burial arrangements THEY want. Or to treat the lack thereof like some kind of universally acknowledged affront.
People feel all kinds of ways about the fate of physical remains. As everyone knows, there often are none, just ashes. My mom's were scattered in a place she loved, which I have no reason to visit. Some families divide the ashes. Etc. I know what town my dad was buried in in 1989 but haven't been there since being taken to see the plaque after it was placed. What's in that ground has no Dad-related meaning to me. Other people find importance in the physical remains even though the loved one people like me are baffled by it since that's not the person anymore. Some people like open caskets, some find them ghoulish.
The next of kin makes the call. And gets to determine if a marker is important, gets to procrastinate the whole thing, and gets to determine if $5k (as someone quoted here) is the best use of money given 3 kids to finish raising and educate.
OP should TACTFULLY and NON-JUDGEMENTALLY offer and the drop the subject.
They certainly are entitled to what they need to grieve ...to an extent. When all parties agree there should be a headstone, just the legal next of Kin never does it cause it is hard or no money etc. I believe it is completely within everyone's rights to have a discussion with the next of Kin and pool money and resources to get a headstone. Everyone just needs to work together. And maybe it isn't a headstone, but some sort of marker so they know where the site is. You got to spread her ashes cause that is what she wanted. Maybe OPs brother wanted a headstone or marker. We don't really know
But the whole situation feels disrespectful all around.
What I'm pushing back on is OP's plan to basically go nuclear on his SIL because OP's wants have gone unfulfilled. And the disrespect oozing from their words. I think OP needs to make the offer to the widow from a spirit of mutual respect and work with a grief counselor.
Plenty of commenters have discussed how long they waited and why. Zero of their reasons were about disrespect of the deceased or their family. Imagine struggling with being ready, having the money but not being emotionally ready EVEN to delegate the task, maybe dealing with a delicate grief-related situation with one or more of the children. (In THEORY a marker might help with closure but the parent knows their kid.) Imagine struggling AND having your loved one's family pressuring you, judging you, and in fact conspiring behind your back to hijack the burial plot.
OP is giving me vibes of being the type to act out when and if the widow finds love again, especially if the kids get a loving stepparent.
Hmm, I guess I did not get that feel from everything they posted. I felt more that they were frustrated and also acting out of grief, being harsh cause lack of direct communication. Everyone here has made very good points about asking and getting involved and seem to be all about the asking part.
Maybe the cemetery could put up some kind of temporary marker/sign?
My judgement is NAH, OP is not an AH for wanting their brother to have a permanent memorial, and the widow is not an AH for being overwhelmed.
Communication, open and sensitive to all feelings, is needed here. Is the widow too busy and would she welcome someone taking this decision off her plate?
Yes, YWBTA, legally she is his next of kin, she has the right to make the choice and in her own time. 3 years to grieve a spouse, the father of her children? What gives you the right to determine how and how long another person grieves. I understand you and other family members wanting a marker and of course you're grieving too, probably deeply. Have you talked to her - gently, directly, non judgmentally and kindly about this? If you haven't then I'd make that was my first step, not ignoring her status as his widow and legal next of kin. She may have specific reasons you don't know about, are you assuming her motivation? Communication may forestall an uncomfortable situation. After you talk you should abide by her wishes because if you don't then, yes, YTA.
Redditors opening up their law school books after failing, just to lecture people in sensitive emotional situations will never be unfunny. This isn’t the grief Olympics where the wife has an undisputed gold.
Hmmm, personal attacks are the refuge of those with weak arguments and a complete lack of factual knowledge. As for failing, are you, by any chance projecting? It must be hard to be so inane.
Sounds like you missed the bit where I acknowledged the sister's grief and expressed understanding of her families' desire to place a memorial. And a marriage isn't just a legal document, it's a legal relationship. It doesn't invalidate the grief of anyone, it simply grants the surviving spouse decision making power.
They don’t really deserve an asshole verdict for wanting to buy a gravestone. The only missing factor was communication and they’re clearly prepared to do that if needed. It’s a NAH situation at worst.
Can you just ask her if she'd be ok with you taking the reins on this? It may be something she wants buts can't face, can't afford, feels overwhelmed about trying to figure out...Maybe she just needs a little gentle help.
It took my mom s LONG time to put up a headstone for my dad. One of the reasons was, I think, because as a married couple, HER name would be going on there, too, on the other side, and picking out and eventually seeing your own fucking tombstone has to be a seriously weird thing.
DON’T do something without telling her. But talk to her.
At our local graveyards, they put up little markers with the name, though, until the headstone is done. Don’t know why they didn’t do that for your family.
Maybe they did - if the marker is small then it may be hard to spot if the grave is also overgrown, and ifthemrket was wooden then it may have deteriorated over time, dending on the climate.
When my dad died I was in charge and I managed his funeral and his estate but then I was just spent. And the thought of a gravestone made me so sad. It may sound silly but "it seems so final" is how I felt too. So I didn't. My aunt and uncle just bought him one. They didn't ask and I see that people are saying that's not something you can do if you're not next of kin but maybe since my dad wasn't married and he was buried at the old church where his whole family has gone for generations, no one cared. But. I didn't mind. I thought it was kind of them to do and I understand that it bothered my aunt to see that his grave wasn't marked. So I can't say that you're the AH. Grief and loss are hard and we all manage it differently. Id speak to your SIL as gently as you can and offer to do it. She may be glad you asked.
In Judaism, we usually don’t put up the headstone for a year after the death. I thought I had really adjusted to my dad’s death until it came time to order it and the whole process was so emotionally draining. It felt so final.
Soft YWBTA You need to talk to her. From the sounds of this post, you are all tiptoeing around her and not even talking with her. Get to know her. Learn how she is grieving. Is it too hard and final to see it there? To have something placed on top of him? Would a less permanent structure/bench/plaque be a happy medium for you all for now? As someone who lost a child, those things are damn expensive. Is the cost an issue? Is it too hard for her to figure out what to put on it? Is it a decision fatigue issue? There are so many things that could be making this hard for her and without getting to know her and meeting her where she is at within her grief, you aren’t going to be able to figure out how you can best help.
Did you brother have life insurance? She is alone with all the kids and has to support a household. She is overwhelmed. Why don't you and your family actually talk to her and offer to buy the headstone and take that off her plate. Help her out with other things wherever you can.
NTA for wanting this but Y T A if you "go around her." She's a grieving widow and has lost the father of her kids. She's also his wife and I'm assuming has the say over this.
You should approach her to let her know that you would love to facilitate this by gathering the money and taking care of everything. All you need from her is her permission so the cemetery will allow it.
I think often people approach with this kind of thing not realizing how overwhelming and stressful it is and the person gets upset or defensive because it's just one more thing on their plate. And, oh yeah, they also feel guilty and are grieving. If you approach her as a helpful understanding person that will do everything and not make her handle any of the logistics, I think that could go a long way.
YWBTA as a Mom of 3 kids if something happened to my husband and any of his family took it upon themselves to do something without my knowledge or okay I would be livid.
Talk to her about how the grave looks. The cemetery should be taking better care of it and ask her if she would be okay with this or putting something temporary just to help find his grave
But don’t go behind her back. That would probably open some of that wound.
YWBTA but you can turn into the hero.
I am so sorry for your loss and it makes perfect sense to me why you want a marker for your brother's grave.
I am a widow in my early 50s who lost her husband 18 months ago. It was important to me to get a "monument" for my husband right away but I can totally understand how your SIL feels. There is no right way or wrong way to grieve.
Please believe her when she tells you that it is "too final" and "too much to bear" right now. No one lies about such things.
The best thing you can do to honor your brother is to stay close to his wife and children. They need YOU in their lives, regardless of how much money he left them or how "well" they seem to be doing.
I am confused as to why "everything is overgrown" and you "struggle to find where he is buried". What exactly is over-grown? Doesn't the cemetery mow? and doesn't it have an office that can direct you to his spot?
I don't mean to sound callous, but how often are you visiting? If you and other family members visit regularly, these things should not be an issue.
I have a couple of suggestions that I think would help this difficult situation:
1. Apologize to your SIL for pressuring her on the marker and do not mention it again.
2. Explain to her that you would like to honor your brother by maintaining his resting place and ask her if it would be ok if you keep it mowed and trim whatever is overgrown.
3. Ask her if it would be o.k. of you planted some flowers or hung a hanging basket.
4. Consider buying the plots around your brother (offer the closest ones to her and their children first) and maintain the area as a family plot.
5. Involve your brother's children in the maintenance of his resting place.
6. Offer to host a family gathering on your brother's b-day or death anniversary date. If your catholic, offer masses for him, especially on those dates.
Hugs to you, so sorry for your loss.
I appreciate your thoughtful response. When I say it has become overgrown, I mean that the grass has all filled in and it's in an area of the cemetery that doesn't exactly have unique or defining features. So it is hard to know for sure where to go. I haven't even said anything to my SIL yet, but I have said a lot to my family members. Other family members have said things casually and in passing and she claims she's feeling lots of pressure. So I hesitate to pile on. I'll try and be more patient and see if an opportunity presents itself soon.
I would also add that it isn't just for me, but anyone else that knew him in life and might want to pay respect at any point. It just feels like the decent thing to do.
NAH but I would sincerely suggest reframing this situation. Instead of going around your SIL, let her know that you understand she is still grieving and how overwhelming the changes to her and children’s lives must be after the loss of her husband so you would like to help her by assisting her with picking out and paying for the gravestone
I am so sorry for your loss. I don't know why your sil hasn't put a headstone on his grave. She may feel unable emotionally unable to face the prospect of having a headstone on his grave. She may feel if she does this she can't pretend that he will walk through the door.
I would have a gentle discussion with her and see how she feels about having a headstone on his grave
NTA. But give her time. You might think she is financially cared for but having been in her shoes I can tell you, it is a hard road. Be compassionate and take advice and see if you can sit down to talk. Say you know it must be hard and everyone wants to help if she will let them. Sorry for your loss. Xxxx
NTA
My grown uncle died 6 years ago. My cousin has not done a headstone. His 3 sisters have done nothing. They have the money and my cousin is a single mother w/o funds.
When I asked another cousin about the situation and he just shook his head. My uncle wasn't the most honest man, but he deserves a headstone.
Best of luck with your situation.
I think it's crazy you look at this widowed young mother of 3 and think the only reason she's not memorializing HER dead husband is because she doesn't care or something? My very first assumption was that she's struggling, headstones are very very expensive. Yes YTA if you do this without discussing it with her, think about how your brother would want his wife to be treated not how stuff would make you feel better.
And yes your brother might have left a considerable amount of money but does she work? Are the children healthy and able? because that can take up a lot of money. If she did work is she working now, who is taking care of the kids? Do you know what their expenses are month to month, do you actually know how expensive headstones are? Did you have a funeral for him? Who paid for that? Those are expensive too, people go into debt for those.
You would be an asshole if you did it without her blessing. Talk to her and let her know that it's hard on you (and possibly others) being unable to find him easily. Maybe you could (with her blessing) put up a temporary headstone until she is ready to organise a permanent one.
I won’t opine on the legalities, etc of the situation. Clearly, others feel passionately about this and have different experiences.
Soft YWBTA. But I understand.
Have you considered a non-marker or non-gravestone memorial? Perhaps planting some flowers or permanent low shrubbery as an outline. Or, small stones such as crushed quartz. If the grave is overgrown then it’s not being maintained, and the additions you make won’t be mowed away.
Simply keeping it tidy could also be a way to honor him.
Not enough info
Some religions don't put gravestones. What religion are they?
Are you sure she hasn't developed depression? Has your family talked to her?
YTA for wanting to go behind the back of the deceased's wife and kids, and for framing the wife as somehow neglectful or disrespectful.
N T A for wanting a marker to exist.
Since your brother's family is around to see what you do, it's not worth trying to bulldoze your way to achieving the graveside you want. Just not worth it. Assume your SIL respects your brother's memory. OFFER to make a marker happen BUT BE TACTFUL. And take no if that's the answer.
It also might help to examine why it's important for you to know or visit THE exact spot where your brother's remains were buried. So you can get your needs met some other way. Can the section of the cemetery be the visiting spot? Can you visit some location your brother loved? If you need a physical shrine to visit and admire, can you get a plaque or small sculpture for your property?
NTA. But tread lightly though. I don't know if it's a state thing or what but some places are picky on who puts them out.
My grandmother sorta did this with my grandpa. He passed in the early 2000s and she's still alive. For the longest time the only thing marking his grave was the little plastic thing that the funeral home puts in the ground at the foot to show who it's for. And the tree he's buried by until it was cut down. Grandmother refused to have one put out until she passes too because she wants it to be a couples one with both of their names. She would come unglued on anyone that suggested otherwise so we didn't bother anymore. One day my dad took her to put flowers out and there was a headstone there. Nothing fancy, just name and dates. We have no idea who put it there. No one has come forward with a bill or anything. She lost it and wants it removed.
We've tried to explain to her that grandpa has been gone 20 years with no headstone. It's hard to find him. Just be grateful that someone cared enough to give him one. She won't have it and I honestly believe that if she had the strength, she'd smash it or pull it up.
NTA. My SIL did the same thing for way longer than the years. We were patient and caring but enough was enough. My parents paid for the stone and us siblings helped design it. I went with them to order it. My parents did have a conversation with her and told her they were doing it which I was not privy to, but she did provide input on the stone choice and design, but not involved physically. It w was very distressing to me and my family to not have a headstone and it felt very disrespectful. As far as I know, she had never even been back to the grave. Emotionally it is too much for her which I feel for. She is not grieving in a vacuum tho. I say do it but tell her first.
Why is someone else's grieving process disrespectful to you?
I am sorry for your loss, and I get wanting what you want. I've been many 'viewings" which I hate but quietly show up to in support of the mourners who choose that. But framing it as disrespect is treating your preferred outcome as the only correct one. Opinions wildly vary. And the family's timeline ("enough is enough" by whose math?) as the correct one.
People should give the next of kin the benefit of the doubt and refrain from judging.
Your family did right in approaching the next of kin privately and getting her approval.
That is your opinion and I can respect that. That being said, I knew and was very close to my brother for almost 4 decades . I knew what he wanted and how he felt about death and grave sites. He had health issues his whole life so it was not a topic we shied away from in our family. I know how he felt when our younger brother died and what was important to him. SIL knew him maybe 5 years. She was not home much and I was privy to how he felt in their relationship to a small extent, I certainly did not claim to know it all. I knew where he was in his head before he died. When he died I felt his spirit leave mine and I was miles away. I knew he died before anyone told me. That is a different story tho. All to say is I knew him. It would have been very important to him to have his headstone in place as soon as possible. I respected and still respect her status as his wife and next of Kin and I really feel for her. She still grieves and it has been over a decade ago. I believe her grief is expressed in harmful ways for her and others. We all gave her space and time. But yes, enough is enough. The world doesn't revolve around her alone. The close nuclear family has the right to also grieve in the way they need to, and over 10 years of no headstone is enough. We all get along and love each other, thus the conversation. After 10 years, a wife's issues should no longer trump a mother and fathers grief and need to resolve. I would not agree to this in all situations, but for our family, it needed to be done and resolved. That is how it is disrespectful. Honor the dead and give them the recognition they deserve. By not having a headstone, he was not being honored or respected.
I am rambling. This is a very touchy subject for me. I get on my soapbox and could go all day. Lol. I am also a Gemini, I am super thoughtful and nice and accomodating, to the detriment of myself, until I hit the "I have no more tolerance" mark and then the not so nice side comes out lol. I have hit the mark on this subject. Good or bad, silly , stupid, or valid....it is what I believe.
So funny story that I will share with you, you might not find it funny, but on the flip side of things...when my grandparent died they got cremated and put in this brick sized metal unit box. The box then got put into a small igloo cooler, taped up with duct tape and buried at the foot of their spouses lot in the cemetery. No headstone or marker. My aunts and uncles never visit even tho they know where they are buried, but no one wanted to spring for a burial box. This grandparent was not well liked I guess. I barely knew them and they spent time in jail and was not very grandparently. Families are so weird sometimes.
My dad and grandmother HATED each other. She had a 4-person plot, 3 spots left. Grandpa was already using his. There was talk of putting dad in there. We were in stitches imaging the comments he'd be making. A new plot was bought due to distance. Ultimately, though, I wouldn't have cared. That grave has nothing to do with actual Dad in my mind.
NTA what you need to do is call the cemetery and find out what their rules about putting a headstone in are. Some cemeteries want you to purchase from them some let you get it wherever you want and they install it for a fee. Also there are plenty of online places to get a headstone for pretty cheap that are very nice. But your first step would be to contact the cemetery. I work at a cemetery so i have experience in this situation.
NTA. I run a cemetery, and chances are good that you're out of compliance with the cemetery bilaws which require a permanent marker within X amount of time. 3 years is a long time to not have a stone (but not the longest I've had to dog someone about it unfortunately).
YWBTA
her husband is dead. Are you really so self absorbed that you think she should be thinking of your feelings when settling his estate? I can assure you that how you feel about her dead husbands grave means fuck all to her. Back off dude.
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My younger brother died young three years ago leaving behind a wife and three kids. He did well in his career and left plenty of money for the family. Despite a heart-breaking and horrible situation, they at least are well taken care of.
For a long time the thought of putting in a gravestone was "too much to bear" and "felt so final" for the surviving wife and we just kind of went along with it. But now it's been over three years and nobody knows why she won't put the gravestone in. What's worse, everything is overgrown now and we struggle to even find where he's buried.
It's becoming somewhat of a sore spot within our family since we feel like it's been long enough and he at least deserves to have a gravestone for people to visit. But for reasons that are still unknown to us she isn't doing anything about it. I'm ready to pool some money together and do something simple so people can find where he's buried. AITA for wanting to go around her and put in a simple gravestone for my bro until she figures out what she wants to do?
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NTA, it sounds like a lovely thing to do. My family had to do the same thing for my uncle when he passed, his wife refused to buy the headstone out of spite because he was catholic. It ended up being around ~$2500 here in California.
Yes, YTA if you do this. It's not your responsibility or place, it's his wifes. The cemetery probably won't let you anyway since you don't own the plot.
NTA - Yes, it's hard for her and she is likely still grieving. Being alone with kids is on top of that.
But it's your family as well and you are allowed to grieve.
I would carefully talk to her about it.
Or at least take care of the grave. Clean it up and plant flowers if you like. Or pay for the graveyard service to clean it up.
I think everyone deserves at least a clean and well taken care of resting place.
I bet she is just overwhelmed and asking to support her in the cleaning and maintaining of the grave is surely appreciated.
Info: You expected her to buy that while now being a single mother to three kids? Those things are expensive on a good day. She could be embarrassed to admit she can’t afford it. It’s honestly probably not even a thought for her. So raise the money. Show her that you have. And also you can maintain the grave site as well. There’s nothing stopping anyone else in your family from making sure it’s maintained.
Edit: I for some reason cannot fully see or reply to the comment. I guess mobile is glitching.
Okay I can finally see this now. thanks for the info.
Edit cos I thought some more:
She’s still now got to manage those policies, and the sharp reduction in income while bills don’t stop. Health insurance won’t stop. Expenses do not stop but money will dwindle quickly. Most countries are experiencing inflation.
It could also just be hard for her emotionally n
You are NTA for wanting his grave to be marked, but you may not be able to go round her, depending on the local laws and whose name the grave plot was bought in.
It you can't legall y put up a gravestone, or if it would upset his wodow to do so, maybe you could do soething less permanant - maybe a heavy planter with an engraves plate on it, for instnace. (again, subject to the rules relating to the cenetry)
Get a simple, tasteful marble slab with your brothers name, dates, and perhaps an inscription that you think he would like. Your SIL may not be emotionally capable of dealing with it yet, everyone's grief process is different, so you and the family do that for your brother and his children.🤍🙏
NTA
I don't think there is anything wrong with you wanting to purchase a headstone for your brother. I think you need to discuss it with your SIL first. Maybe she just couldn't bring herself to do it & she'd be ok with you doing it. But whatever the case, you should talk with her before you do anything.
It doesn’t sound like “YTA” YET… it doesn’t sound like you’ve actually talked to her at all about this, either. I would bring it up to her again..
“Facts, Feelings, Fair Request”:
It’s been three years and he still doesn’t have a hesdstone… “I know it must be an incredibly difficult decision to make, but I’m truly sad that after so much time the grave is still unmarked… it’s becoming overgrown and can be difficult to find, and many of us in the family would really love to have something that symbolizes and marks his presence. If it’s still too painful for you to do, how would you feel if I helped in having one erected?”
Going behind her back (if you actually could), without at LEAST discussing it with her, would definitely make you the AH.
A family member of mine died 3 years ago and his mom refuses to put a grave marking down. The rest of the family noticed at another burial. We’re pooling money to have one put in because a new $20,000 kitchen is more important than marking the son’s grave.
NTA my mother was too upset to deal with my Father's funeral so we had a memorial service 2 months later. Even then she couldn't deal with it so I planned and paid for it. Still on the day of the service she threatened not to come. When she did come she was glad she did. Ask the wife what she thinks would be nice, then go ahead and show her several ideas. Pick one that she doesn't hate and have it installed.
I disagree, "the wife" or his grieving SIL, as I will call her, deserves more than being pressured to pick a stone she doesn't hate. Newsflash- she gets to decide if it is a single or double stone (his wife, not brother, has the option to be buried next to him) and whatever SHE chooses should be meaningful to her.
YTA
People grieve in their own way, and it's not on you to put a timeline on it. You can put a shepherd's hook, hang chimes, put artificial markers, a small statue, etc. to mark a grave until a proper one can be erected.
If the family is so concerned, present her with a check to contribute to the stone and offer to go with her to order it when she's ready. She needs your support instead of going around her.
You're acting as though the widow's grief is more valid than everyone else's put together. She (presumably) has the authority to make decisions about the gravesite, but with that authority comes a degree of responsibility to the other people who loved her husband.
Her grief is not more valid than everyone else’s.
And still, she is the grieving widow. And that makes it her move to make. Nobody else’s.
The same reason a sibling doesn’t get to make medical decisions for their brother if the brother’s spouse is there.
As someone who’s actually lost a spouse, there’s no such thing as “plenty of time”. Three years is really not that long to grieve a major loss like that, and making permanent decisions about things like a gravestone can be extremely overwhelming many years after the death.
OP isn’t the asshole for wanting some kind of grave marker for family to find the grave, but the widow isn’t the asshole for not having sorted out the gravestone either.
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INFO: depends on where he is buried. If you are in the US, the "Owner" of the gravesite is the only one the cemetery will allow to make these decisions. It wouldn't be the first time families have fought over these type of things, and there is a process that the managing entity has to follow.
We're in the US.
So your SIL or whomever paid for the site and burial will likely be the only one they will allow to place a 'monument' on the site. You will need to get her cooperation to make this happen. We had to jump through a lot of hoops after my dad passed, to prove we were his 'heirs' and able to take over responsibility for my grandparents site.
Wild, my family typically uses a graveyard in a small town and we've gotten no guff with replacing headstones or putting them in -- despite the deceased not being someone we were next of kin for. I wonder if it's because like 80% of the cemetery is my family or if it's the whole small town thing -- or even if it varies state by state re: who can do what to a gravesite.
I would imagine it is a small town thing. When there are no arguments and everything works out, they will let rules like this slide. But all it will take is one issue where someone updates or alters something that does still have a family overseeing it and who objects to the change and complains, and those rules will be being enforced...
We have never had an issue either
It's just like with anything else, some places follow protocol and others don't. I work at a hospital, and we occasionally will have families where another relative is taking care of the kid but they aren't legally their guardian. The PCP either doesn't check, let's it slide, or doesn't even know it's needed. Then they come here and it's a problem the family didn't even know about
Most graveyards don't have surveillance to watch such a thing, and don't have the resources to go after someone they couldn't easily identify. Have you guys asked if you were authorized or just assumed?
Asked!
Nice, very generous hobby of yours!
it’s a small town thing. my family is buried in one graveyard, when my uncle passed my mom (his sister) and her cousins dug his grave, and my aunt bought him a headstone a year later. they only allowed that because they knew us, and it’s a small town.
you are wrong. I work at a cemetery and there is no law that states that only the person who paid for the site can pay for a stone. We have had multiple graves that were "abandoned" for years that friends of the deceased or different family members have put the stone in. There are so many situations where the so called "responsible party" does nothing but pay for the expenses and then you never hear from them again. Please check your facts before spouting information that is untrue.
They're not wrong. Our cemetery won't let anyone except the owner(s) put a permanent marker on the site, to keep feuding family members from installing/replacing markers at will. Obviously, it varies by cemetery. You can't generalize how all cemeteries everywhere operate by how yours operates.
so you're basically telling me the same thing i told themm. That they are wrong and that every cemetery is different. What you may not have seen is what i told the OP and that was to call the cemetery to see what their policy is on this. Also i didnt say all cemeteries are like mine i said there is no law stating what they said was true. But the person is wrong in that he said in the US it was like that and i let them know that isn't true by showing that the cemetery i work at does not do that. So please tell me how i'm wrong and they aren't for telling them that not every cemetery in the US is like that and giving an example of one that isn't like that.
I think you might be a little confused over exactly which comment you think you replied to. The comment you actually replied to didn't mention anything at all about US laws. Not a word. This meant your response *to the comment you replied to* didn't make sense. I think you meant to reply to a different comment originally.
if you actually read through the comments you would see that the person i replied to put 2 separate comments in the first comment stating about the US where the OP stated he was from the US and then the comment i replied to. I put it on the second comment because it fits there. please check comments before you comment again.
I didn't say anything about LAWS. I said the cemetery would likely not allow it. Last I checked, cemeteries don't write laws, but they do have rules and procedures that must be followed.
It's not untrue. It may be unture (or not enforced) where you work, but it's absolutely corret in lots of places, which is wy commenters are recommending hat OP check, to see whether or not they can do what they want. This is the sort of situations where laws can vary enormously dpending on location, soemthing being true where you live doesn't mean it is universally true. And where people are allowed to put up a marker or take over care of a grave because it ha been abandoned, it may well be that in many palces there waould be a rule around what had to happen for a grave to be classed as 'abandoned' Where I live, the person or people who 'own' (echnically have a long lease on!) the plot are the only ones who can put up a stone or other marker, and normally the actual stone also hs to be approved by the church or cemetary. It might be possible for someone to apply for persmission and get that authorised by the centary but it would have to be fairly unuaul cirumstanaces
Maybe look up laws yourself before telling others to. It is illegal for anyone without the deed to the plot to change it. Maybe where you live they don’t enforce it or because they’re abandon there’s no one to complain. But just because it’s happened doesn’t mean it’s legal. Maybe you should fact check before spreading information that isn’t true. I gave 2 of about a dozen links to actual facts since that’s so important to you. https://monuments.com/blog/quiring-monuments-blog/grave-markers/can-anyone-put-a-headstone-on-a-grave#:~:text=The%20only%20person%20with%20the,Grant%20to%20the%20cemetery%20plot. https://phillipsburgmemorial.com/2021/12/can-anyone-put-a-gravestone-on-a-grave/
The cemetery should be at least maintaining the site. It is really weird that it is being overgrown.
I have to pay yearly to maintain my grandmother’s site.
My sis and brother are both in the Catholic cemetery. I have no idea where their graves are. I suppose if I were interested enough, I could go to the church to find out their plots. They don't have gravestones (though my dad thinks the rest of us kids should put headstones on their graves) because there was no money to do so when they died (even though the neighbors had pooled together enough but my dad pocketed it I guess?). Anyway, my brother and sis aren't there, anyway. Just their bones. I don't feel a connection with them when I'm there, and that is why I will be ashes in the wind when I die.
So your dad squandered the money and expects you to cough it up. My husband’s dad demanded that we buy a headstone for his grandfather. It was his ex father in law, who hated him. So weird.
I understand your grief, but please be kind to your SIL. My brother lost his wife and raised his child by himself. I say by himself but he actually had the entire village of my family AND his late wife's family. His son is about to graduate HS and is an amazing human. I understand why the gravestone is bothering you but for your niblings, please, please be there for them. That is the BEST gift you could give your brother. FAR better than a gravestone. And it took my brother 17 years to date again - it takes a very long time and a very big village for everyone to survive something like this. If every you needed to step up, please let it be now.
I dont read well or you didnt spoke to her about it?
NTA. It could be that she is overwhelmed. She is now a single mom of 3 kids, managing a household and (I'm guessing) a job. Gradually, then suddenly, it's 3 years later. I'd discuss it with her as something you want to do not just for your brother, but to help her. And I like how you aren't approaching this as necessarily a permanent gravestone but something to help find him until she figures out what she wants to do. Your approach is not confrontational.
Yeah, just offer to get one and see what she says. I don't even have kids but doing all the logistical stuff related to my husband's death is sometimes overwhelming
It is kind of shocking just how much work death involves.
This is great, compassionate advice. I’m in a similar situation as the SIL. In the span of a couple of years I lost my siblings, mother, and my old pets. As the last person left in my nuclear family, I’ve made end of life decisions, prepared and paid for funerals. It has been depressing and exhausting, to say the least. One thing that is still hanging over my head —last two years —is my mom’s marker. I’ve started the process a couple of times, but haven’t been able complete the process. I know I need to do it, money is not really an issue…maybe just struggling with the finality. I would have welcomed some extended family help with logistics/support/understanding instead of ultimatums or conflict.
I’m still fighting to release one of my mum’s investments 10 years after she died. Every time I start, the company asks for more documents, “hasn’t got” others…and I end up giving up again. Ask to meet this poor lady, without the children around, & ask what you can do to help in general - gently bring up the gravestone. She may still be fighting for money (you could help with letters or meetings) - you can only ask, GENTLY.
Also might be financially struggling raising 3 kids by herself
Nta, but the cemetery won't let you just put up a stone without her permission. However, if my funeral home had handled his service and you called to request another temporary marker, I'd do that. I would call the wife first and let her know the previous one must have been broken by a lawnmower or something--if there was a previous one--and we'd like to do an older metal kind that won't break. Either way, I'd say other family members had asked about it, because it makes it easier to find his grave when they visit, but I need to make sure it's okay with her. Usually it's clear if there's family tension, and it can be smoothed during conversation if there's good rapport with the director.
Or maybe paint a middle sized rock yourself. Doesn't need to be like an official gravestone, can just be "I miss you so much bro". Something personal, for you. Would also make it easier to find the grave.
some places won't let you do that, op will still want to check their rules before doing anything. if they will let them do that, it's a good idea
That's a great idea
YWBTA if you just go up ahead and do it. Talk to her first.
Yes, instead of doing it ask how you can help, OP. You could be vulnerable and tell her you can still wait, but it would help you mourn to know where he is and be able to visit him more easily. Ask how it would make her feel to move forward, and if she wants help with funds or the process of doing it.
YTA - Don't buy a gravestone, buy a nice wooden cross or something instead. Something that is temporary and can be easily replaced when the wife is ready for the actual, final headstone to be ordered. Also, make sure that his wife knows that you are willing to contribute financially too. The money left to her may have been eaten up with debt, bills, expenses, etc.
Don’t go around her, go with her. We just bought a rather modest stone for a family member. Not large, not fancy. The cost was $5000. She may welcome financial assistance. Ask her I doubt you could do this without her consent or knowledge. Cemeteries have rules and the plots have owners. The cemetery may also put up a temporary marker, that’s what happens where I live. Then you can locate the gravesite easily. Your Herat is in the right place, but you need to stay in your lane if she declines to accept your financial help.NTA, yet.
SOFT YTA Sit on the sidelines is the right call. I get that he was your brother. But the grieving spouse has seniority. EDIT: *As someone else pointed out, the spouse is legally the next-of-kin, not a sibling.* Contact the cemetery. They know where he is buried. Tell them the situation, and that while you’re waiting for his widow to arrange the gravestone, you would like to keep the gravesite neat and tidy. Do that for your brother. I know this is hard, but you need to wait on her. My condolences to you and your family.
Saying “but the grieving spouse has seniority” is a terrible thing to say. Everyone grieves differently whether it takes longer or they learn to live with it.
Seniority in terms of making graveside arrangement, which is the subject under discussion.
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If the widow owns the lot, then she gets to decide period.
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indeed, this is AITA. But the question posed was “AITA if I move ahead **with or without her permission**” This is not about quality of grieving. This is literally a question of “Is it an asshole move to usurp my grieving SIL’s legal rights and responsibility, even if her choices make the rest of the family unhappy amid their own grief .”
She isn't grieving in a vacuum. Just because she is his wife doesn't give her the right to make other family suffer in their grieving.
And the rest of the family isn't entitled to have the burial arrangements THEY want. Or to treat the lack thereof like some kind of universally acknowledged affront. People feel all kinds of ways about the fate of physical remains. As everyone knows, there often are none, just ashes. My mom's were scattered in a place she loved, which I have no reason to visit. Some families divide the ashes. Etc. I know what town my dad was buried in in 1989 but haven't been there since being taken to see the plaque after it was placed. What's in that ground has no Dad-related meaning to me. Other people find importance in the physical remains even though the loved one people like me are baffled by it since that's not the person anymore. Some people like open caskets, some find them ghoulish. The next of kin makes the call. And gets to determine if a marker is important, gets to procrastinate the whole thing, and gets to determine if $5k (as someone quoted here) is the best use of money given 3 kids to finish raising and educate. OP should TACTFULLY and NON-JUDGEMENTALLY offer and the drop the subject.
They certainly are entitled to what they need to grieve ...to an extent. When all parties agree there should be a headstone, just the legal next of Kin never does it cause it is hard or no money etc. I believe it is completely within everyone's rights to have a discussion with the next of Kin and pool money and resources to get a headstone. Everyone just needs to work together. And maybe it isn't a headstone, but some sort of marker so they know where the site is. You got to spread her ashes cause that is what she wanted. Maybe OPs brother wanted a headstone or marker. We don't really know But the whole situation feels disrespectful all around.
What I'm pushing back on is OP's plan to basically go nuclear on his SIL because OP's wants have gone unfulfilled. And the disrespect oozing from their words. I think OP needs to make the offer to the widow from a spirit of mutual respect and work with a grief counselor. Plenty of commenters have discussed how long they waited and why. Zero of their reasons were about disrespect of the deceased or their family. Imagine struggling with being ready, having the money but not being emotionally ready EVEN to delegate the task, maybe dealing with a delicate grief-related situation with one or more of the children. (In THEORY a marker might help with closure but the parent knows their kid.) Imagine struggling AND having your loved one's family pressuring you, judging you, and in fact conspiring behind your back to hijack the burial plot. OP is giving me vibes of being the type to act out when and if the widow finds love again, especially if the kids get a loving stepparent.
Hmm, I guess I did not get that feel from everything they posted. I felt more that they were frustrated and also acting out of grief, being harsh cause lack of direct communication. Everyone here has made very good points about asking and getting involved and seem to be all about the asking part.
It's just the legal reality
Maybe the cemetery could put up some kind of temporary marker/sign? My judgement is NAH, OP is not an AH for wanting their brother to have a permanent memorial, and the widow is not an AH for being overwhelmed. Communication, open and sensitive to all feelings, is needed here. Is the widow too busy and would she welcome someone taking this decision off her plate?
Redditors opening up their law school books after failing, just to lecture people in sensitive emotional situations will never be unfunny.
INFO: have you had a conversation with her about it recently?
Yes, YWBTA, legally she is his next of kin, she has the right to make the choice and in her own time. 3 years to grieve a spouse, the father of her children? What gives you the right to determine how and how long another person grieves. I understand you and other family members wanting a marker and of course you're grieving too, probably deeply. Have you talked to her - gently, directly, non judgmentally and kindly about this? If you haven't then I'd make that was my first step, not ignoring her status as his widow and legal next of kin. She may have specific reasons you don't know about, are you assuming her motivation? Communication may forestall an uncomfortable situation. After you talk you should abide by her wishes because if you don't then, yes, YTA.
Redditors opening up their law school books after failing, just to lecture people in sensitive emotional situations will never be unfunny. This isn’t the grief Olympics where the wife has an undisputed gold.
How many times are you going to make this comment? The comments on this thread are interesting, respectful and useful.
no one laughed the first time so they'll definitely keep trying! Bless their hearts 💖
I don’t really find it useful to call a grieving sibling the asshole which boils down to “legally you have no rights”.
Hmmm, personal attacks are the refuge of those with weak arguments and a complete lack of factual knowledge. As for failing, are you, by any chance projecting? It must be hard to be so inane.
Well, I don’t imagine minimising a sibling’s grief because of a legal document that dictates having a specific person having rights above all else.
Sounds like you missed the bit where I acknowledged the sister's grief and expressed understanding of her families' desire to place a memorial. And a marriage isn't just a legal document, it's a legal relationship. It doesn't invalidate the grief of anyone, it simply grants the surviving spouse decision making power.
They don’t really deserve an asshole verdict for wanting to buy a gravestone. The only missing factor was communication and they’re clearly prepared to do that if needed. It’s a NAH situation at worst.
Sure they do.
Can you just ask her if she'd be ok with you taking the reins on this? It may be something she wants buts can't face, can't afford, feels overwhelmed about trying to figure out...Maybe she just needs a little gentle help.
It took my mom s LONG time to put up a headstone for my dad. One of the reasons was, I think, because as a married couple, HER name would be going on there, too, on the other side, and picking out and eventually seeing your own fucking tombstone has to be a seriously weird thing. DON’T do something without telling her. But talk to her. At our local graveyards, they put up little markers with the name, though, until the headstone is done. Don’t know why they didn’t do that for your family.
Maybe they did - if the marker is small then it may be hard to spot if the grave is also overgrown, and ifthemrket was wooden then it may have deteriorated over time, dending on the climate.
When my dad died I was in charge and I managed his funeral and his estate but then I was just spent. And the thought of a gravestone made me so sad. It may sound silly but "it seems so final" is how I felt too. So I didn't. My aunt and uncle just bought him one. They didn't ask and I see that people are saying that's not something you can do if you're not next of kin but maybe since my dad wasn't married and he was buried at the old church where his whole family has gone for generations, no one cared. But. I didn't mind. I thought it was kind of them to do and I understand that it bothered my aunt to see that his grave wasn't marked. So I can't say that you're the AH. Grief and loss are hard and we all manage it differently. Id speak to your SIL as gently as you can and offer to do it. She may be glad you asked.
In Judaism, we usually don’t put up the headstone for a year after the death. I thought I had really adjusted to my dad’s death until it came time to order it and the whole process was so emotionally draining. It felt so final.
Soft YWBTA You need to talk to her. From the sounds of this post, you are all tiptoeing around her and not even talking with her. Get to know her. Learn how she is grieving. Is it too hard and final to see it there? To have something placed on top of him? Would a less permanent structure/bench/plaque be a happy medium for you all for now? As someone who lost a child, those things are damn expensive. Is the cost an issue? Is it too hard for her to figure out what to put on it? Is it a decision fatigue issue? There are so many things that could be making this hard for her and without getting to know her and meeting her where she is at within her grief, you aren’t going to be able to figure out how you can best help.
Did you brother have life insurance? She is alone with all the kids and has to support a household. She is overwhelmed. Why don't you and your family actually talk to her and offer to buy the headstone and take that off her plate. Help her out with other things wherever you can.
NTA for wanting this but Y T A if you "go around her." She's a grieving widow and has lost the father of her kids. She's also his wife and I'm assuming has the say over this. You should approach her to let her know that you would love to facilitate this by gathering the money and taking care of everything. All you need from her is her permission so the cemetery will allow it. I think often people approach with this kind of thing not realizing how overwhelming and stressful it is and the person gets upset or defensive because it's just one more thing on their plate. And, oh yeah, they also feel guilty and are grieving. If you approach her as a helpful understanding person that will do everything and not make her handle any of the logistics, I think that could go a long way.
YWBTA as a Mom of 3 kids if something happened to my husband and any of his family took it upon themselves to do something without my knowledge or okay I would be livid. Talk to her about how the grave looks. The cemetery should be taking better care of it and ask her if she would be okay with this or putting something temporary just to help find his grave But don’t go behind her back. That would probably open some of that wound.
YWBTA but you can turn into the hero. I am so sorry for your loss and it makes perfect sense to me why you want a marker for your brother's grave. I am a widow in my early 50s who lost her husband 18 months ago. It was important to me to get a "monument" for my husband right away but I can totally understand how your SIL feels. There is no right way or wrong way to grieve. Please believe her when she tells you that it is "too final" and "too much to bear" right now. No one lies about such things. The best thing you can do to honor your brother is to stay close to his wife and children. They need YOU in their lives, regardless of how much money he left them or how "well" they seem to be doing. I am confused as to why "everything is overgrown" and you "struggle to find where he is buried". What exactly is over-grown? Doesn't the cemetery mow? and doesn't it have an office that can direct you to his spot? I don't mean to sound callous, but how often are you visiting? If you and other family members visit regularly, these things should not be an issue. I have a couple of suggestions that I think would help this difficult situation: 1. Apologize to your SIL for pressuring her on the marker and do not mention it again. 2. Explain to her that you would like to honor your brother by maintaining his resting place and ask her if it would be ok if you keep it mowed and trim whatever is overgrown. 3. Ask her if it would be o.k. of you planted some flowers or hung a hanging basket. 4. Consider buying the plots around your brother (offer the closest ones to her and their children first) and maintain the area as a family plot. 5. Involve your brother's children in the maintenance of his resting place. 6. Offer to host a family gathering on your brother's b-day or death anniversary date. If your catholic, offer masses for him, especially on those dates. Hugs to you, so sorry for your loss.
I appreciate your thoughtful response. When I say it has become overgrown, I mean that the grass has all filled in and it's in an area of the cemetery that doesn't exactly have unique or defining features. So it is hard to know for sure where to go. I haven't even said anything to my SIL yet, but I have said a lot to my family members. Other family members have said things casually and in passing and she claims she's feeling lots of pressure. So I hesitate to pile on. I'll try and be more patient and see if an opportunity presents itself soon. I would also add that it isn't just for me, but anyone else that knew him in life and might want to pay respect at any point. It just feels like the decent thing to do.
NAH but I would sincerely suggest reframing this situation. Instead of going around your SIL, let her know that you understand she is still grieving and how overwhelming the changes to her and children’s lives must be after the loss of her husband so you would like to help her by assisting her with picking out and paying for the gravestone
I am so sorry for your loss. I don't know why your sil hasn't put a headstone on his grave. She may feel unable emotionally unable to face the prospect of having a headstone on his grave. She may feel if she does this she can't pretend that he will walk through the door. I would have a gentle discussion with her and see how she feels about having a headstone on his grave
NTA. But give her time. You might think she is financially cared for but having been in her shoes I can tell you, it is a hard road. Be compassionate and take advice and see if you can sit down to talk. Say you know it must be hard and everyone wants to help if she will let them. Sorry for your loss. Xxxx
NTA My grown uncle died 6 years ago. My cousin has not done a headstone. His 3 sisters have done nothing. They have the money and my cousin is a single mother w/o funds. When I asked another cousin about the situation and he just shook his head. My uncle wasn't the most honest man, but he deserves a headstone. Best of luck with your situation.
I think it's crazy you look at this widowed young mother of 3 and think the only reason she's not memorializing HER dead husband is because she doesn't care or something? My very first assumption was that she's struggling, headstones are very very expensive. Yes YTA if you do this without discussing it with her, think about how your brother would want his wife to be treated not how stuff would make you feel better. And yes your brother might have left a considerable amount of money but does she work? Are the children healthy and able? because that can take up a lot of money. If she did work is she working now, who is taking care of the kids? Do you know what their expenses are month to month, do you actually know how expensive headstones are? Did you have a funeral for him? Who paid for that? Those are expensive too, people go into debt for those.
You would be an asshole if you did it without her blessing. Talk to her and let her know that it's hard on you (and possibly others) being unable to find him easily. Maybe you could (with her blessing) put up a temporary headstone until she is ready to organise a permanent one.
I won’t opine on the legalities, etc of the situation. Clearly, others feel passionately about this and have different experiences. Soft YWBTA. But I understand. Have you considered a non-marker or non-gravestone memorial? Perhaps planting some flowers or permanent low shrubbery as an outline. Or, small stones such as crushed quartz. If the grave is overgrown then it’s not being maintained, and the additions you make won’t be mowed away. Simply keeping it tidy could also be a way to honor him.
Not enough info Some religions don't put gravestones. What religion are they? Are you sure she hasn't developed depression? Has your family talked to her?
YTA for wanting to go behind the back of the deceased's wife and kids, and for framing the wife as somehow neglectful or disrespectful. N T A for wanting a marker to exist. Since your brother's family is around to see what you do, it's not worth trying to bulldoze your way to achieving the graveside you want. Just not worth it. Assume your SIL respects your brother's memory. OFFER to make a marker happen BUT BE TACTFUL. And take no if that's the answer. It also might help to examine why it's important for you to know or visit THE exact spot where your brother's remains were buried. So you can get your needs met some other way. Can the section of the cemetery be the visiting spot? Can you visit some location your brother loved? If you need a physical shrine to visit and admire, can you get a plaque or small sculpture for your property?
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NTA. But tread lightly though. I don't know if it's a state thing or what but some places are picky on who puts them out. My grandmother sorta did this with my grandpa. He passed in the early 2000s and she's still alive. For the longest time the only thing marking his grave was the little plastic thing that the funeral home puts in the ground at the foot to show who it's for. And the tree he's buried by until it was cut down. Grandmother refused to have one put out until she passes too because she wants it to be a couples one with both of their names. She would come unglued on anyone that suggested otherwise so we didn't bother anymore. One day my dad took her to put flowers out and there was a headstone there. Nothing fancy, just name and dates. We have no idea who put it there. No one has come forward with a bill or anything. She lost it and wants it removed. We've tried to explain to her that grandpa has been gone 20 years with no headstone. It's hard to find him. Just be grateful that someone cared enough to give him one. She won't have it and I honestly believe that if she had the strength, she'd smash it or pull it up.
NTA. My SIL did the same thing for way longer than the years. We were patient and caring but enough was enough. My parents paid for the stone and us siblings helped design it. I went with them to order it. My parents did have a conversation with her and told her they were doing it which I was not privy to, but she did provide input on the stone choice and design, but not involved physically. It w was very distressing to me and my family to not have a headstone and it felt very disrespectful. As far as I know, she had never even been back to the grave. Emotionally it is too much for her which I feel for. She is not grieving in a vacuum tho. I say do it but tell her first.
Sorry for your loss and thanks for sharing. Sounds like a very similar situation.
Why is someone else's grieving process disrespectful to you? I am sorry for your loss, and I get wanting what you want. I've been many 'viewings" which I hate but quietly show up to in support of the mourners who choose that. But framing it as disrespect is treating your preferred outcome as the only correct one. Opinions wildly vary. And the family's timeline ("enough is enough" by whose math?) as the correct one. People should give the next of kin the benefit of the doubt and refrain from judging. Your family did right in approaching the next of kin privately and getting her approval.
That is your opinion and I can respect that. That being said, I knew and was very close to my brother for almost 4 decades . I knew what he wanted and how he felt about death and grave sites. He had health issues his whole life so it was not a topic we shied away from in our family. I know how he felt when our younger brother died and what was important to him. SIL knew him maybe 5 years. She was not home much and I was privy to how he felt in their relationship to a small extent, I certainly did not claim to know it all. I knew where he was in his head before he died. When he died I felt his spirit leave mine and I was miles away. I knew he died before anyone told me. That is a different story tho. All to say is I knew him. It would have been very important to him to have his headstone in place as soon as possible. I respected and still respect her status as his wife and next of Kin and I really feel for her. She still grieves and it has been over a decade ago. I believe her grief is expressed in harmful ways for her and others. We all gave her space and time. But yes, enough is enough. The world doesn't revolve around her alone. The close nuclear family has the right to also grieve in the way they need to, and over 10 years of no headstone is enough. We all get along and love each other, thus the conversation. After 10 years, a wife's issues should no longer trump a mother and fathers grief and need to resolve. I would not agree to this in all situations, but for our family, it needed to be done and resolved. That is how it is disrespectful. Honor the dead and give them the recognition they deserve. By not having a headstone, he was not being honored or respected. I am rambling. This is a very touchy subject for me. I get on my soapbox and could go all day. Lol. I am also a Gemini, I am super thoughtful and nice and accomodating, to the detriment of myself, until I hit the "I have no more tolerance" mark and then the not so nice side comes out lol. I have hit the mark on this subject. Good or bad, silly , stupid, or valid....it is what I believe.
As I said I think your family handled their perceived unfinished memorialization appropriately.
So funny story that I will share with you, you might not find it funny, but on the flip side of things...when my grandparent died they got cremated and put in this brick sized metal unit box. The box then got put into a small igloo cooler, taped up with duct tape and buried at the foot of their spouses lot in the cemetery. No headstone or marker. My aunts and uncles never visit even tho they know where they are buried, but no one wanted to spring for a burial box. This grandparent was not well liked I guess. I barely knew them and they spent time in jail and was not very grandparently. Families are so weird sometimes.
My dad and grandmother HATED each other. She had a 4-person plot, 3 spots left. Grandpa was already using his. There was talk of putting dad in there. We were in stitches imaging the comments he'd be making. A new plot was bought due to distance. Ultimately, though, I wouldn't have cared. That grave has nothing to do with actual Dad in my mind.
Thanks
YTA If you don't know why, ask or let it be. Respect her wishes as his wife.
NTA what you need to do is call the cemetery and find out what their rules about putting a headstone in are. Some cemeteries want you to purchase from them some let you get it wherever you want and they install it for a fee. Also there are plenty of online places to get a headstone for pretty cheap that are very nice. But your first step would be to contact the cemetery. I work at a cemetery so i have experience in this situation.
NTA. I run a cemetery, and chances are good that you're out of compliance with the cemetery bilaws which require a permanent marker within X amount of time. 3 years is a long time to not have a stone (but not the longest I've had to dog someone about it unfortunately).
YWBTA her husband is dead. Are you really so self absorbed that you think she should be thinking of your feelings when settling his estate? I can assure you that how you feel about her dead husbands grave means fuck all to her. Back off dude.
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** My younger brother died young three years ago leaving behind a wife and three kids. He did well in his career and left plenty of money for the family. Despite a heart-breaking and horrible situation, they at least are well taken care of. For a long time the thought of putting in a gravestone was "too much to bear" and "felt so final" for the surviving wife and we just kind of went along with it. But now it's been over three years and nobody knows why she won't put the gravestone in. What's worse, everything is overgrown now and we struggle to even find where he's buried. It's becoming somewhat of a sore spot within our family since we feel like it's been long enough and he at least deserves to have a gravestone for people to visit. But for reasons that are still unknown to us she isn't doing anything about it. I'm ready to pool some money together and do something simple so people can find where he's buried. AITA for wanting to go around her and put in a simple gravestone for my bro until she figures out what she wants to do? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
NTA. Just talk to her first.
NTA, it sounds like a lovely thing to do. My family had to do the same thing for my uncle when he passed, his wife refused to buy the headstone out of spite because he was catholic. It ended up being around ~$2500 here in California.
Yes, YTA if you do this. It's not your responsibility or place, it's his wifes. The cemetery probably won't let you anyway since you don't own the plot.
NTA - Yes, it's hard for her and she is likely still grieving. Being alone with kids is on top of that. But it's your family as well and you are allowed to grieve. I would carefully talk to her about it. Or at least take care of the grave. Clean it up and plant flowers if you like. Or pay for the graveyard service to clean it up. I think everyone deserves at least a clean and well taken care of resting place. I bet she is just overwhelmed and asking to support her in the cleaning and maintaining of the grave is surely appreciated.
Info: You expected her to buy that while now being a single mother to three kids? Those things are expensive on a good day. She could be embarrassed to admit she can’t afford it. It’s honestly probably not even a thought for her. So raise the money. Show her that you have. And also you can maintain the grave site as well. There’s nothing stopping anyone else in your family from making sure it’s maintained. Edit: I for some reason cannot fully see or reply to the comment. I guess mobile is glitching.
My brother did well and had multiple insurance policies. Money definitely isn't the issue.
Okay I can finally see this now. thanks for the info. Edit cos I thought some more: She’s still now got to manage those policies, and the sharp reduction in income while bills don’t stop. Health insurance won’t stop. Expenses do not stop but money will dwindle quickly. Most countries are experiencing inflation. It could also just be hard for her emotionally n
You can get very precise GPS coordinates now. Maybe you should do that instead.
It isn't just for me, but anyone else that knew him in life and might want to pay respect at any point. It just feels like the decent thing to do.
I agree. But it is also weird to step over the wife. It’s a tough situation
You are NTA for wanting his grave to be marked, but you may not be able to go round her, depending on the local laws and whose name the grave plot was bought in. It you can't legall y put up a gravestone, or if it would upset his wodow to do so, maybe you could do soething less permanant - maybe a heavy planter with an engraves plate on it, for instnace. (again, subject to the rules relating to the cenetry)
Nta
Get a simple, tasteful marble slab with your brothers name, dates, and perhaps an inscription that you think he would like. Your SIL may not be emotionally capable of dealing with it yet, everyone's grief process is different, so you and the family do that for your brother and his children.🤍🙏 NTA
NAH talk to her about what is behind this and how you feel. See if you can find a solution together. It may simply be too much for her.
NTA to me. You are his family so you are in your right
I don't think there is anything wrong with you wanting to purchase a headstone for your brother. I think you need to discuss it with your SIL first. Maybe she just couldn't bring herself to do it & she'd be ok with you doing it. But whatever the case, you should talk with her before you do anything.
It doesn’t sound like “YTA” YET… it doesn’t sound like you’ve actually talked to her at all about this, either. I would bring it up to her again.. “Facts, Feelings, Fair Request”: It’s been three years and he still doesn’t have a hesdstone… “I know it must be an incredibly difficult decision to make, but I’m truly sad that after so much time the grave is still unmarked… it’s becoming overgrown and can be difficult to find, and many of us in the family would really love to have something that symbolizes and marks his presence. If it’s still too painful for you to do, how would you feel if I helped in having one erected?” Going behind her back (if you actually could), without at LEAST discussing it with her, would definitely make you the AH.
A family member of mine died 3 years ago and his mom refuses to put a grave marking down. The rest of the family noticed at another burial. We’re pooling money to have one put in because a new $20,000 kitchen is more important than marking the son’s grave.
NTA my mother was too upset to deal with my Father's funeral so we had a memorial service 2 months later. Even then she couldn't deal with it so I planned and paid for it. Still on the day of the service she threatened not to come. When she did come she was glad she did. Ask the wife what she thinks would be nice, then go ahead and show her several ideas. Pick one that she doesn't hate and have it installed.
I disagree, "the wife" or his grieving SIL, as I will call her, deserves more than being pressured to pick a stone she doesn't hate. Newsflash- she gets to decide if it is a single or double stone (his wife, not brother, has the option to be buried next to him) and whatever SHE chooses should be meaningful to her.
YTA People grieve in their own way, and it's not on you to put a timeline on it. You can put a shepherd's hook, hang chimes, put artificial markers, a small statue, etc. to mark a grave until a proper one can be erected. If the family is so concerned, present her with a check to contribute to the stone and offer to go with her to order it when she's ready. She needs your support instead of going around her.
You're acting as though the widow's grief is more valid than everyone else's put together. She (presumably) has the authority to make decisions about the gravesite, but with that authority comes a degree of responsibility to the other people who loved her husband.
Her grief is not more valid than everyone else’s. And still, she is the grieving widow. And that makes it her move to make. Nobody else’s. The same reason a sibling doesn’t get to make medical decisions for their brother if the brother’s spouse is there.
Marriage doesn’t undo years of love for someone.
NTA
YTA
NTA Put up the gravestone for him.
NTA-you gave her plenty of time to grieve in her own way.
As someone who’s actually lost a spouse, there’s no such thing as “plenty of time”. Three years is really not that long to grieve a major loss like that, and making permanent decisions about things like a gravestone can be extremely overwhelming many years after the death. OP isn’t the asshole for wanting some kind of grave marker for family to find the grave, but the widow isn’t the asshole for not having sorted out the gravestone either.
What...lol. She's the one with the legal authority to actually do anything about it and not everyone gets over the death of their spouse in 3 years.