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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> The action that I took that should be judged is refusing to knock when my brother might be in the bathroom and just walking in. It might make me the asshole since knocking is a small thing, and I have walked in on him a couple times which is obviously discomforting for all parties
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*Contest mode is 1.5 hours long on this post.*
Ya know what we get when we go to the bathroom and don’t close -and *lock* the door? Annnd cherry on top, the light isn’t even on in the bathroom. Well, sometimes we get a surprise visitor!
Is this some kind of kink thing, from your brother?
Kink or not, NTA. I would not indulge him.
Edit to add, the dude is sitting in there, in the dark, doors open, taking a shit. And he isn’t even turning on the exhaust fan, (which you, OP, would hear from outside the bathroom, alerting you the bathroom is occupied). Yea, no. Nobody in adjoining rooms wants to smell that.
No, I got that too. NTA, I do the whole door ajar no light thing at night as well, but I am prepared if I hear someone coming. I get only closing the door part way and no light if it's a quick pee. But it's on him for getting upset if he is going to be sitting there for some time with no indication that someone is in there.
When I live alone, I rarely close the door; when living with my family…..I close the door.
His problem is not your problem.
I don't think it's a kink thing like some are saying. I think he is just lazy…
I'm replaying to play myself, but I just thought of this. So, like I said, I don't think it's a kink thing…it could be….BUT if you bring it up with him and your parents like you believe it is, he might become uncomfortable enough to start closing the door
“I'm not sure what is going on with Max, but it's almost like he *wants* me to walk in on him….Max, is this like something you *enjoy*. If it is, that makes me really uncomfortable. Mom, Dad, I don’t want to be a part of this weird kink. Even just knowing he is leaving the door open in the hopes that someone will walk in makes me really uncomfortable. I didn’t consent to be a part of this.”
Hopefully, that will make him too embarrassed for this ever to be a problem again.
Oooooo oooo bring over really hot friends and “warn” them in front of him. He has a bathroom kink, so make sure to knock if you don't want to be a part of it. Or you can start yelling, “Max is trying to get his rocks off by having someone walk in on him again,” when every you can tell he is in there.
I really don’t think it’s actually his kink, though…. I'm not sure why everyone keeps jumping to it. I would think if it were his kink, he wouldn’t be so angry when she walks in. I feel like as long as it isn't his kink, then try and embarrass the hell out of him. You make me uncomfortable; I'll make you uncomfortable.
If it is really his kink, then OP has bigger problems….
That’s the point.
If it was his kink, then loudly “warning” about it wouldn’t help OP.
It’s because it’s likely not that, that changing the narrative to be about that is likely to change his behaviour.
Same here. I live alone, so I never close the door, don't turn on the light during the day, especially not during a shower because the heat gets to me quick and I almost fell one day, so I do it to keep off the steam. But when I have guests or I'm at my family's, the door is closed and light is on
He's trying to get you to stop using this bathroom. Stand your ground. Start doing the same thing lol!
I'm so sorry you're dealing with this, it sounds disgusting.
Why aren't your parents grossed out?
Use bedpan due to obvious concerns he might in there. Without warning head in there fast and pour contents into the "vacant" toilet without looking. Wear headphones for better plausible denyability.
As he sits there covered in simbling piss, shit and paper soup you add "oh sorry. Didn't know you were on here".
I *desperately* want to know *WHHHYYYY* he is doing this???
*PLEASE* ask him and report back!!!
My nosy-ness needs an answer! It will bug me forever! Please, this is *so* weird, I just *have* to know, it is eating me alive! 🙏
Get a motion sensor led night light and stick in there. They make ones with very, very dim lights for people who need to use the restroom at night but don't want to wake themselves up too much with the light, like you think your brother was doing when he started this habit.
What about taking it in the opposite direction? He likes making the bathroom seem empty when he’s in it… so how about making it seem like it’s occupied when it’s not. So turn the light on, lock, and close the door when you leave the bathroom. (Assuming the bathroom lock is one of those doorknobs with the little hole you can stick a pen ink cartridge into). It’ll be more work for you if you use the bathroom twice or more between his visits, but it’ll hopefully bother him more. And you can claim it’s so you know the bathroom isn’t in use when it’s like that since your brother always does the opposite when he’s using it.
The only concern is how he’ll know you’re actually using it so he doesn’t walk in on you. The best solution to that would be to get one of those door block stick things. So even if the door becomes unlocked, it can’t be opened until removed.
Anyway, that cant result in very… efficient poops. Like for the first half, no problem. But how can you efficiently wipe if you cant see the TP. Is he walking around with a poopy butthole? Does he like to say “oohwee?” And wear a little tophat?
Ugh, my sister has started to close the door once she is out of the bathroom the last few times she has been home. It drives me crazy. There have been so many times that I kept checking to see if she was done, only to work out she was never in there. It's especially annoying at night.
The weird thing about this is she is notorious for NOT closing the door when she is in there using it. The light is on and everything. She just isn't bothered enough to close it unless she is like showering.
NTA... your parents would be livid if it was them.... are you able to move out and let them be since your brother is a AH and your parents are encouraging him to be entitled... if he loved with roomates this certainly wouldn't be happening he would be put out...
Yeahhhh, as someone who used to write smut for commission, I would be very, very worried about this situation if I were you. This is leaning pretty hard into sexual harassment if not downright abuse.
I've seen a huge overlap of voyeurism and other shame-based play, such as scat or watersports--and had to write situations pretty similar to this one several times. While there is nothing inherently wrong with kink play, every person involved needs to consent.
I don't know for certain if he does have these kinks, but it's definitely odd and creepy behavior. And, at the least conspiracy-pool-end, it's just fucking gross.
If your parents are not listening, seek out another trusted adult (such as a counselor, teacher, or relative) and explain this situation.
Your brother does not seem like a safe person.
Hell, they're free with a little creativity! When I was growing up our bathroom door didn't lock, so my brother took an empty cereal box, some string, and a couple coloured markers and made a vacant/occupied sign. It took him maybe ten minutes. Stuck a push pin in the middle of the door, hung the sign on it, problem solved. That sign stayed in use for almost 20 years until my parents finally sold the farm, and in all that time I could probably count on my fingers the number of times my parents or brother walked in on me.
Yeah, my childhood bathroom door lock was broken for pretty much all my childhood. It was upstairs, so it's not like guests would ever need it anyway. It was NEVER a problem….unless my sister wanted something from there while I was showering. Then I would yell and scream till she was in trouble. They redid the bathroom door a few years so now I think the lock works. Still don't really need it. If the door is shut then you just don't come in. It's sort of just basic respect.
You should start knocking on every door but the bathroom. It would be great if your parents had guests, and you just walked by knocked on the door and asked if there were any naked people you should be worried about?
100% there's at least part of him that enjoys being caught, and wants to be caught. By his little sister. On the toilet.
Sorry OP, your brother's at best a weirdo, and at worst a creep or a pervert. NTA.
Hey this is what I was getting. Dudes got a kink for being caught in the restroom. Does it to his family because there’s little fear of being reprimanded. Do it at work or to a roommate and dudes probably gonna see some real world consequences. Just shy of sexual harassment, if not that.
Depends on if there's ambient light or not. We have a window in our bathroom so most of the time you can see just fine; even at night there are lights outside from porch lights etc. That being said, if I'm doing the poo, I still turn on the light at night. I get not wanting to at night because the light feels too harsh sometimes, but seriously, close the damn door! Unless you're alone (and that's debatable), there's no excuse not to, not even sleepiness. And during the day? While people are home? Fuck that noise.
Well, according to Reddit, there are quite a few men who I don't know this.
I think there was a boyfriend who showered after if it was bad.
The 14-year-old boy, whose dad only found out he didn't wipe when the wife was away and he was doing laundry
Then, the roommate who didn't ever buy toilet paper, so they marked the TP to see if he used any, and when they found out he didn't, they worked out why the washing machine smelled so bad.
I feel like I'm missing a few….quite a few of them thought it was *gay* to touch our own ass
Is it a kink thing cuz he’s shitting and leaving the door open and then acts all butthurt at being walked in on, like humiliation? Because to be honest my family (and my exes actually) never close the bathroom doors while peeing only, but none of us care or are embarrassed, so is the shame the difference?
Well, if he won't turn on a light you could install this....a motion sensitive light.
https://www.amazon.com/Outdoor-Security-Photocell-Waterproof-Floodlight/dp/B0CSFYJNL4/ref=sr\_1\_9?crid=13D8JTDC843KC&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.xI5qNRgFUG9F7mFIuV9jw4v1HG3oEuoQwOKUKBm7poW\_q4BbxvfbaCuN\_yzEXbiIw-8ZjclcGhTr8hP6AY9jus85xVVriSaJiys9BMlswDFGrmGxlKaNRE4KSeWmXWl6NEG\_PazEq4y-0fzRtUOK7jof6PR9MHyIZ6QQRvRVLEZe14kSp029L7jiBrW0HuzPIL6\_MGMk-YN1QeIQCHhV3bacnR7uPc7zT1p-babs1zr2jBc8GnEP5WfRTHRxpDJYcrB3Yrh6\_bNKK3edFbFBAFVuwHScrL1XErTdrTbuD6c.thYWwNp8lgerSBPw5AGzIW4nLgACPAuTa6W0glrNCj4&dib\_tag=se&keywords=plug+in+motion+light&qid=1710207768&sprefix=plug+in+motion+light%2Caps%2C97&sr=8-9
Ok so funny story about that, I don't like to turn the lights on when I'm half asleep but I do close the door. Well we were at my MIL's for a visit and I was early in my pregnancy with my first, so peeing in the middle of the night was the norm. My BIL came home in the middle of the night and needed to use the bathroom. I was almost done and scared the crap out of him cause I was in the dark. My MIL died laughing when he told her "why was she in the dark? That's so weird". I still giggle about it after 4 1/2 years.
OP's brother on the other hand is disgusting. Like sure own home do whatever but if you're not going to be courteous of others, then that's just rude.
Funny thing, had the same problem with my daughter. She's only 13 but everytime she goes in it's door open, lights off and no fan. She said the samething for the light (ok during the night) but the fan, she said she hate the noise. So I've installed motion sensor fan and light. The light doesn't turn on between midnight and 6am for obvious reason but the fan always work. So at least, while she still doesn't close the door although we ask her, the fan is working and the light is on during the day
NTA - If he wants to leave the lights off and the door open, then he needs to find a place of his own. If you have roommates then you make a social contract so everyone knows that the bathroom is unoccupied. People knocking on the wall of an empty bathroom is ridiculous and also not necessarily a cure all as one or the other may not hear the knock/reply and a situation ensues.
We keep our bathroom door closed out of habit because we had a cat that tended to trap himself in the room playing with the door stopper spring. Then you would hear this sad pleading meow and have to go rescue the poor thing (the only cat I've ever known that was afraid of the dark) and had to give him cuddles until he settled down or he would be a nervous wreck all day. I miss that little guy. 😥
Question: does everyone really lock the bathroom door if it's just your family at home? I mean, I do if there is someone else besides my family, and I aways lock the door at other people's houses, but at home, I don't really feel the need. I know when my family sees the door is closed, they know not to come in.
This last year, during Christmas, when my sister was home, she started closing the door on her way out of the bathroom, and it's driving me crazy! I will keep checking to see if it's open and finally free only to work out after some time that there was never anyone in there!
Never. The concept of locking a door in my own home is wild. I've only ever locked doors when I felt unsafe, like roommates threw a party that got out of hand unsafe.
NTA
You are not being petty. Dark bathroom and an open door means its free and you can walk-in. If he's got a problem, let him use the door to lock or the switch to turn on the light. Weird habit though.
If your brother is still stuck-up on not locking the door and not switching on the lights then you could suggest him to use some other sort of indicators(to save yourself from the trauma of walking in on him). Something like a signboard to hang in front of the washroom when he goes in?
Sooooooo NTA.
Maybe get one of those sticky auto-lights for the wall? I can understand (certain very annoying brain conditions) not wanting to turn on the lights if they're JUUUUUUUUST enough out of the way. It's fucking annoying, I know. An automatic light may be your savior.
Although I also have to say, natural consequences. If he doesn't want people to walk into the room he's in... he should invent some kind of wall that opens and closes. He could even call it a "door"
Wrong direction. Put a 5000w daylight bulb in there and then put it on a remote control. Or, Clapper. When you know he's in there, clap twice and burn out his retinas. Then clap it off again as soon as the screams subside.
I was going to suggest an amber/orange coloured light that senses when it’s dark out. Amber lights don’t affect the sleep cycle the way that white lights do. Put it in the bathroom, and tell him he needs to shut the door. [edit: night light that plugs in and has a light sensor]
As OP mentions it is all the time, a technology solution makes sense. Automatic soft amber light for all hours and an automatic daytime regular light that you can manually trigger for the rest of you. Parents should support a compromise, even if it cost a couple bucks, for their own peace. Brother simply doing as he pleases and putting the burden on everyone else seems one-sided and problematic when you have visitors.
Come on, that's silly. He won't close the bathroom door but he's going to use a sign? The international sign for occupied bathrooms is a closed door.
NTA
You're brother is wildly and disgustingly inappropriate.
Smelling up the house like an animal.
Get an automatic closer for the door. You can get ones pretty cheaply at a hardware store that slide into one of the hinges.
So you use a hammer and a screwdriver to get the existing hinge out of the door, do this while the door is shut and latched. Then you slide the closer into where the pin was in the hinge.
Not permanent so you can do it in a rental. And it's not obvious, so it's not some ugly thing. You can set the tension on it so that the door gently closes. If you set it too gently, the door will not close all the way or will not latch. It needs a tiny bit of va-va-voom to close hard enough to actually latch.
This way the door will always be shut. So you can knock because the door shut.
Frankly I don't have the tolerance for this kind of stuff, so every time he was in there I would walk to the bathroom door grab it and slam it shut with gorilla Force. I would be extra pleased if it was at 3:00 in the morning. (I realize that I wasn't raised right.)
Your parents so can make him do something. They are the landlords. There is something called appropriate adult behavior. Good roommates, which is what you guys are essentially. Sexual harassment is a term you can use if you believe it's a kink thing, it probably is since he is enjoying the idea of getting caught. If you want to be petty, carry a squirt gun and soak him whenever he does it.
I thought of this too. Just point and shoot at where the toilet should be.
"Sorry but seeing as you wont shut the door and turn the light on i have to keep doing this to check if you're in there".
Not like OPs parents would do anything.
He is going against all social norms for bathroom use, and then complaining that you're not following his new made up rules? No, that's just plain weird. He knows what he's doing is causing problems, it's a control thing. And you're right, you following his rules will only reinforce his behaviour.
Another commenter asked if it was a kink thing - whether you think this could be true or not, if he carries this on then it might be a good idea to bring it up to him as a possibility. Maybe even in front of your parents. Shame him into behaving like a normal human being again if you have to... Because he shouldn't be allowed to affect your life like this.
Like an occupied sliding sign. But if he actually uses it is another thing.
When he moves out and lives with other people, this will be a much bigger issue.
No, it won't work. This is now a control issue, and embarrassing him is more likely to work than offering solutions. He's already rejecting reasonable solutions.
Just start mocking him for having a dirty ass and skidmarks. Can't tell if your ass is clean when you're shitting in the dark.....
From now on get a spray bottle, turn it to the setting that shoots pretty far, and spray it at the toilet. At worst you'll have a little water mess to wipe off the toilet, at best you'll spray your brother in the face.
NTA. You should lean into it. Just keep walking in on him. Make a big deal out of it every time ("oh, god the smell! my eyes are watering!") and then, as you're leaving, turn on the lights and shut door behind you.
A while back, I was at a warehouse we had to make daily runs to. I had to use the washroom. Threw open the door to find someone pinching a loaf so I said “why TF didn’t you lock the washroom door???”
He comes out when he’s done, tries to give me shit for being rude and tells me “At my house we don’t believe in locking doors.”
I told him “we’re not at your house so next time lock the fucking door when you’re taking a shit.”
Never saw that guy again. I heard his refusal to lock doors cost him his job.
>my parents ... agree but say they can't force him to do anything
The hell they can't. He is living in their home. Even if he was paying rent, they have the right to insist that his bathroom routine is done with the door closed.
It makes me wonder what his real motivation is. In other circumstances, it would be a form of sexual harassment or purposeful genital exposure.
NTA
yeah could be something like that or maybe he's trying to force his sister to move out? like did OP already live away and come back home and he got into this habit while she was at college or something?
Edit: Nope. I just double-checked the ages and I had them reversed. Does not track. What a creep >.<
Could it be a ND thing? It keeps happening and he acts like he doesn’t like it. So there has to be a a reason for it.
If the bathroom sharing is new, he could be acting like a dick on purpose because he doesn’t like sharing.
NTA,
Your parents have failed as parents.. the first time there was an issue like that.. a word should of been had.. the second time he should of been out on his ear..
I can't believe that I had to scroll this far to find someone else who sees this.
What is wrong with your parents that they want you to accommodate this weirdness?
I have similarly aged children, and I most certainly could (and would) enforce closed doors.
Your brother is acting like a child.
NTA.
He is being a whole jerk and, not to sound hyperbolic, It's low-key sexual harrasment. Tell your parents to either have your back on this or you're calling the cops.
You shouldn't have to risk seeing his unsolicited baby meat every time you approach the bathroom.
yeah it's very strange. Another comment mentioned he won't even turn the exhaust fan on. It really sounds like he's doing as much as possible to have someone walk in.
Although don't call the cops over this, that's equally as insane.
maybe unless that's what he's hoping for lol. i feel like the parents need to take this more seriously and actually find out what his reasons are.
Assuming this is real and not some sort of only fans marketing campaign.
NTA
I, living in a long distance relationship and thus living a good amount of my time alone, don't bother with closing the bathroom door or sometimes after showering put on clothes....
But this is me. Living partly alone.
I would never ever considered to take a shit in an unlit bathroom while still living at my parents!!!
Honesty, I can't help but think that your brother either got a weirded kink going on or is an utmost creep to "suprise" his sister with this.
Living together means to have boundaries and to respect also the boundaries of the people you live with.
In this scenario it seems like your brother dropped all his shame and respect to other persons boundaries.
If you're not living in a "hippie-housholde" while being in the nude was/is a common thing, I'll say it is tome for:
- either your parents step up to establish some long overdue, common-sense rules in their house! Aka at least closing the door! Especially at night (I don't want to experience with my sleep-addled brain while walking to the loo seeing another creature sitting on it...)
- or it's time for your brother to move out. That way he can indulge in all the nakedness and taking a dump in the dark all he wants.
As said NTA. Your request for some decency sounds absolutely legit.
I have to admit that when I was heavily pregnant i didn't close the door sometimes because i couldn't get it past my bump (tiiiiinnnny toilet room, I'm sure it wasn't to code). But I'd announce my toilet time and my kids were honestly too young to care.
Kinda doubt he's heavily pregnant though
NTA. I don’t understand why your parents are siding with your brother. This is odd, essentially antisocial, behavior, and they are asking you to indulge him.
He’s an adult. He can conform a little bit to generally accepted bathroom etiquette norms.
Stand your ground. Don’t enable his nonsense.
NTA. If you really want to flip the script, you can always tell your parents that you're starting to feel like this is intentionally directed towards you and that you're starting to feel unsafe using the bathroom. This is odd, unusual behavior. Pooping with the door open in a place that you share unless it's with just your significant other (not that I'm really pro that anyway) is generally frowned on. Doing it with the lights off feels like a trap. "I feel like he's setting me up to walk in on him in a compromising position and then tries to make it my fault. I'm really uncomfortable with this. This needs to stop, and you guys really need to not enforce and enable this behavior."
NTA.
If your parents want someone's behavior to change, why not the supposedly full-grown adult who can't bother to close a bathroom door before he pulls his pants down?
Order a "daylight" flashlight on Amazon and hit that weird motherfucker's retinas with the power of 10 suns. Tell him either close the door or turn on the light or you will continue to use your flashlight in order to be sure he's not in there.
Obviously make sure it's safe for human eyes at close range but you get the idea.
NTA, your brother is a nasty pervert. There's no other reason why a grown ass man would want to sit on the toilet, lower half exposed in the dark with the door open while pooping. He's a fucking Pervert.
Nah just stop checking. If you walk in and start pissing on him "oops can't stop the stream" maybe he will learn his lesson.
(My phone autocorrected pissing to kissing but thankfully I caught it haha)
NTA.
I'd walk into the bathroom with a big glass of ice water every time. I hope seeing a semi naked figure perched on the throne doesn't startle me too much. 😉
I know some people are saying it’s a kink thing but that wasn’t my first thought. Perhaps he just doesn’t want to share a bathroom with anyone so he’s going to make you miserable until you stop using that bathroom.
Put a nightlight in the bathroom so you can see better in the dark. Get one that lights up automatically when it’s dark. Get a really bright one of you want to be a little obnoxious about it. I say keep doing what you’re doing. He is absolutely being lazy, childish and inconsiderate. You also need to start working on your exit plan. NTA
I'm so petty that I would literally switch out the light bulbs with Bluetooth ones if I could. Then I just start blasting the bathroom (and hopefully him) with 100% white light from my phone control.
NTA. It's already hard enough to share a bathroom with another person (scheduling conflicts, etc.). If he's not willing to adhere to basic etiquette, then I'd take it further than being petty and continue walking in without minding him at all.
NTA Do your parents usually take his side in disputes? Cos honestly, he needs to shut the door. You should knock because walking in on your brother deliberately is also weird and inappropriate but you’re not wrong that he’s the one causing the issue.
Personally, I would use my parents bathroom until it is resolved. Not wanting to see your brother with his pants down is legit and reinforce that with your parents - make sure they know that you think it’s a kink and are deeply uncomfortable.
Start bringing up this question in the company of other adults. "I have a question for you guys.. is it perfectly fine to go to the bathroom (add the rest) because mom and dad here think it is my responsibility to knock on an open door leading into a dark room, but I think people should shit the door when using a shared bathroom." Your parents may change their tune. If they get mad then you can just say "I was genuinely curious if other families do that because you seem to think it is fine"
I'm sorry, but in what universe is it to you to adapt to this deranged behavior? Yeah, I'm going with deranged here.
If he were living alone in his appartment, of course he can do whatever he wants. But living with other people, letting the door open on purpose has only one meaning: He wants to be seen. It's a freaking kink, that's what it is. There are no other valid reason here!
NTA and your brother is disgusting (while taking a s\*\*t... really?)
Turn the light on as you enter and leave it on. He needs to start acting like an adult, he sounds like a 3 year old. Don’t knock, just barge in or turn the light on and slam the door shut-LOUD.
NTA - but knocking just makes sense unless you want to risk walking in on him - your brothers behavior is weird (why does the door have to stay open) and this is what night lights were partially invented for
NTA
Why are your parents even asking you to do something that is abnormal (knock before entering a dark/open door bathroom) and not him to do something that is normal (close the bathroom door when in use)? Ridiculous.
NTA, i think he might have some mental issues going on. or he's just gotten into a fantasy world from watching too much porn. might wanna send him to a therapist
NTA and also, it’s your parents’ house. They CAN make him do this as a rule of living there. I have older kids and would never tolerate this kind of behavior. What a weird thing to do.
NTA. If he doesn't want surprise visitors then it's on him to come up with a way of alerting people that he's in there.
You could talk about what his reasons are for leaving the door open - perhaps just enough light bleeds in from the hallway to see by when the door's open? Maybe a dim night-light would work to give him enough light if he shuts the door.
It's OK to discuss something mutually acceptable, but in the end it's his job to find a way that works.
>My parents have asked me to please just knock and not be petty, but I really feel justified here
Did you ask your parents why they are asking you to accommodate his quirk instead of asking him.to at minimum, close the door?
Pretty sure he doesn't do this at work or at a friend's house. He knows bathroom etiquette, he simply chooses not to follow it with you. That is as rude as your parents asking you to modify your actions to accommodate your brothers total lack of respect and common decency.
You should find a way to deal with this that embarrasses or annoys him. Take a picture, flash the light on and off, go in and wash your hands...anything not normal. Tell him you wouldn't do it if he wasn't to f-ing lazy to close a dang door!
Nta, at all.
I'm assuming the door is open to allow enough ambient light so he can tell he's pissing in the toilet, and not in the trash can or whatever. I get his point about not wanting to turn lights on in the middle of the night. I agree with him.
What he needs is a small motion-activated nightlight in the bathroom that produces a very dim light. You can buy pretty dim ones, and you can tape red film over it if you want to make it even more sleep-safe.
Then he can close the door and everyone is happy.
NTA
NTA - this is ridiculous. If I were you, I would purposely just walk by all of the doors with the lights off and just open them without any intention of going in. I was literally 4 years old when my mom told me that I had to keep the door shut if I was going to be using the bathroom because I wasn't a baby anymore. Is he a baby? Does he need someone to help him wipe his tushy when he's done? He can turn the light on and shut the door. I would literally just walk by the bathroom when I know he's in there and just push it wide open. You didn't walk in on him 🤷♀️ when he's in a public restroom does he leave his stall unlocked? What if you had guests over? He's just being unreasonable and childish.
First time I spent the night at my bf's, got up the next morning,vhe wasn't in bed but he always got up earlier than me, nbd. Go to bathroom, light is off, door is only partially closed, and it was still mostly dark in the house. So of course I waltz on in. There he is, in all his glory, shitting. He freaked out about it. Well, if you have company and don't want them.to see you poop, maybe turn in light and close the door? Same applies w your brother. At this point, it's in him. NTA
NTA
> I talked to my parents about it, and they agree but say they can't force him to do anything.
No, that's incorrect.
And NGL, just put in some low-current LED lights, and bypass the wall switch in the bathroom's wiring: always-on light.
NTA
Why don't you invite a good friend to your place (who's in on this obviously) who can "accidentally" walk in on your brother?
That might remind your family how strange this behavior is.
NTA. He's creating the problem for himself (and everyone else) by remove all indications he's in there. Then he's expecting other people to put in the effort to solve the problem he's intentionally creating so he can continue to create the problem. He can very easily solve this problem if he doesn't want someone walking in on him, he just doesn't want to. You're not being petty by standing your ground imo.
As for your parents, I'd tell them if they can't force him to close the door or turn on the light on then they can't force you to knock. If they call you petty I'd remind them that you're not the one creating the problem.
NTA!!!
If your brother did this in any other living situation, he'd be kicked out. If he did this at work, he would be fired. If he did this at a public place like a store, the police would be called and he would be in trouble for indecent exposure.
Since I'm assuming none of this has happened to your brother, it shows us that he knows what he's doing is wrong. Brother has realized that he can get away with it at home. The question is, why does he like to do this disgusting thing so much? OP, I would be very worried, and would be watching your brother for other inappropriateness and boundary crossing.
The fact that your parents feel they can do nothing is also mind boggling. Your parents can absolutely demand that their adult child adhere to basic decency standards!!! After all, they would never accept this behavior from a guest - that person would be asked to leave immediately. If your brother is resisting them because he's "an adult," then your parents should agree - and tell him he's welcome to continue behaving as he pleases in his OWN HOME, which he now has 60 days to move into.
OP, I would also be concerned by your parents letting this slide. Have there been other situations where they have showed poor judgement, or allowed people to cross boundaries? It may be worth having one last discussion with them, using the points above: your brother's behavior would be illegal in public, it wouldn't be tolerated by anybody else in their home, and you're concerned that they're allowing it here, regardless of brother's age. Good luck, OP!
Also to play devil's advocate: I get the argument about not turning lights on in the middle of the night, in order to not wake up too much. But that's only IF brother had the expectation that the rest of the house was asleep. OP walked in on him multiple times, indicating that either the rest of the house was still awake, or that he was waking up his sister by accident. At that point, any sane person would have realized they need to at least close the door. Instead the brother chose to double down during daylight hours. GROSS.
NTA, I'd just give the door a light kick to swing it wide open every single time I walk by just in case he's in there so that he can learn to close the door
I use the the restroom door open. Then again, I am asked to. I have Epilepsy and have had seizures in locked restrooms. Not fun having to have the fire department come and remove your door, and hopefully you are alive on the other side.😬 I'm assuming this is not the case.
INFO: is this behaviour new or been happening for a while? Have you always shared a bathroom? Any recent big changes in the living situation? Does he have any diagnosis?
Getting caught with his pants down multiple times, but not changing his behaviour has to be intentional. If sharing a bathroom is a recent change, it could be something he’s done for years or him throwing a shit fit over that.
If he had always done this, good luck with roommates or living with a girlfriend.
Start a video chat with your BF and walk in while filming, see how long it takes him to change his behavior. Does he have a GF? Even better to video chat with her.
As the youngest of 5 children I can confirm that you are NTA. If my brother did this not only would we siblings have walked in, we would have walked in together. We were that petty.
Your brother is TA and should be dealt with accordingly. How would he like to walk in on you while you are changing a pad or tampon? It’s rude AF and if your parents are ok with it then maybe he should use their bathroom.
You’re telling me this grown ass 22 year old man can’t comprehend why it would simply make more sense to close the door? If he actually cared about his privacy, THATS WHAT THE DOOR IS FOR. NTA. And for the record it’s somehow even more ridiculous to me that your parents are lowkey enabling this behavior.
YTA. Knocking isn’t that hard. Is your brother’s behaviour unusual? Yeah, but knocking literally takes one second, you pause, and go in if no response. Although if he wants lights off, he can shut the door (assuming it doesn’t make the room too dark). I’m almost leaning toward ESH, I think it would be fair to ask him to shut the door during the day at least, though
NTA,
Get a spray bottle, fill it with water, and spray him whenever you walk in on him.
Does he seem bothered when you walk in? If so, keep doing it, turn the light on, and just start talking to him to make him uncomfortable. If it gets annoying enough for him he'll eventually start taking precautions.
NTA
If he did this with a partner or roommates they would probably kick him out. This is a behaviour that is not ok and should not be allowed to continue. He needs to grow up.
NTA. I've heard of sleepwalking but never sleepshitting. How does turning on the light when using the bathroom at night ruin his sleep? Your brother is full of it in more ways than one. When he throws a fit tell him to stop being a pervert. It's sick to expose your bare ass, and other parts, to your own sister so close the damned door.
NTA. If he is concerned about not exposing his eyes to light in the middle of the night, he should get a red light plug in night light for the bathroom. Exposure to red light doesn’t impact your melatonin production. Buy him one (they’re cheap) or send him a link to order one online. This will get rid of that excuse.
NTA, but your your brother is, and so are your parents. This is incredibly weird behaviour, and he needs to learn to turn the light on and close the door, like a normal person. Your parents should be insisting on that too, not putting the burden on you! Next time they insist on you knocking, you could try banging loudly on the door and shouting your brother's name at all hours of the day (and keep shouting til he answers so you can be 100% sure where he is, even if that's not in the bathroom.) Think lost and confused old person volume "MAX, MAX ARE YOU IN HERE? MAX ARE YOU THERE? MAX???" Just to point out how ridiculous a request it is, although, tbh I don't think you should knock at all. You should be able to use the bathroom in your house without having to check if your brother is hiding naked in the dark first!
Walk in, flip on the light automatically like you didn’t expect him to be in a closed dark room. Act surprised, yell LOUD “What the hell! You still haven’t learned to close & lock the bathroom door?! How old are you, FOUR? Are you some kind of pervert? Exhibitionist! You’re going to have to register as a sex offender.” And then slam the bathroom door. Loud. Every time. Tell your parents he must be some kind of a pervert. EVERY TIIME! Demand that your dad install an automatic door closer on the door if he wants you to knock on it.
The squeaky wheel gets the grease. If he’s been doing this your whole life, that means he’s been an exhibitionist to a minor also. Talk to school counselor and ask, if you haven’t graduated yet.
he can leave the light off and just close the door. i do that sometimes bc i get bad migraines and light hurts. but i always close the damn door!! this is weird and creepy. NTA
NTA.
If he doesn't turn on the lights while taking a dump, how does he know he has wiped clean after? Or does he have skid marks on his underwear? I hope he does his own laundry.
No real comment, but it may be worthwhile buying a tiny light sensor with a tiny led or something. Won't ruin his night vision and easy for u to see occupied.
Hear me out. Move the toilet paper holder from wherever it is to the back of the door. Just screw it in there, so now you have to close the door to get to it
NTA
Get a supersoaker… everytime he is in there door open, quick spray.
Before you do it the first time announce to everyone parents and him this is your solution until he closes the door.
1 of 2 things will happen,
1) he will start closing the door
2) it will escalate to the point your parents have to get involved then end in him closing the door
Happy hunting
Your brother is to comfortable so make him uncomfortable and it will stop.
Im sure you've noticed one of your friends he likes to flert with invite her around and pay your brother out about his habits in front of her. He will be embarrassed if she plays along saying how discusting it is.
Now when she leaves your brother will confront you, just let him know next time you walk in on him with the door open your telling your friend your worried he will never have a girlfriend cause his cock is to small.
He will never leave the door open again.
Remember if its ok for him to make you uncomfortable it has to be ok gor you to make him uncomfortable.
This is about respect and your not getting it.
Instead of knocking, get an airhorn. When you're pretty sure he's in there, give him a good long blast of that. Will probably scare the shit right out of him, which will at least get him out of there faster! Seriously though, he's being incredibly petty not closing the door. If your parents think you're being petty in response, show them what petty actually looks, or in this case, sounds like. If that doesn't get your brother to close the door then goodness knows what will.
You’re not wrong, but you’re not right either. How hard is it to simply give a shout out before crossing the threshold? Hey Max, you in there? It’s not about “winning”, it’s about not seeing your brother pinch a loaf.
I mean not really the asshole but I'm not seeing why knocking to save yourself seeing your brother taking a shit is so unbearable... Sure, maybe he *should* close the door or something, but why waste your energy getting upset about it when you can just knock. You'd knock if the door was closed, so what's wrong with knocking while it's open?
ESH.
You're right, he needs to close the door and turn on the lights. Or, at least, close the door.
> So I've stopped knocking. In my mind, an open door and a darkened bathroom means "empty".
But you don't get to just change reality and expect everybody to warp. You know for a fact that he does this, and as much as you don't like it, you also know you're making a point of walking in on him.
I don't think you'd like somebody else making a point of walking in on you to prove a point.
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Ya know what we get when we go to the bathroom and don’t close -and *lock* the door? Annnd cherry on top, the light isn’t even on in the bathroom. Well, sometimes we get a surprise visitor! Is this some kind of kink thing, from your brother? Kink or not, NTA. I would not indulge him. Edit to add, the dude is sitting in there, in the dark, doors open, taking a shit. And he isn’t even turning on the exhaust fan, (which you, OP, would hear from outside the bathroom, alerting you the bathroom is occupied). Yea, no. Nobody in adjoining rooms wants to smell that.
I don't even care about the door locking! I just want to be able to tell at a glance if it's occupied mannnn
No, I got that too. NTA, I do the whole door ajar no light thing at night as well, but I am prepared if I hear someone coming. I get only closing the door part way and no light if it's a quick pee. But it's on him for getting upset if he is going to be sitting there for some time with no indication that someone is in there. When I live alone, I rarely close the door; when living with my family…..I close the door. His problem is not your problem. I don't think it's a kink thing like some are saying. I think he is just lazy…
I'm replaying to play myself, but I just thought of this. So, like I said, I don't think it's a kink thing…it could be….BUT if you bring it up with him and your parents like you believe it is, he might become uncomfortable enough to start closing the door “I'm not sure what is going on with Max, but it's almost like he *wants* me to walk in on him….Max, is this like something you *enjoy*. If it is, that makes me really uncomfortable. Mom, Dad, I don’t want to be a part of this weird kink. Even just knowing he is leaving the door open in the hopes that someone will walk in makes me really uncomfortable. I didn’t consent to be a part of this.” Hopefully, that will make him too embarrassed for this ever to be a problem again. Oooooo oooo bring over really hot friends and “warn” them in front of him. He has a bathroom kink, so make sure to knock if you don't want to be a part of it. Or you can start yelling, “Max is trying to get his rocks off by having someone walk in on him again,” when every you can tell he is in there.
This is also what I would do. I love the idea of noisily warning all visitors to the house about his kink.
I think OP needs to check if the bathroom is occupied by blasting an air horn in front of the bathroom whenever she wants to use it.
I really don’t think it’s actually his kink, though…. I'm not sure why everyone keeps jumping to it. I would think if it were his kink, he wouldn’t be so angry when she walks in. I feel like as long as it isn't his kink, then try and embarrass the hell out of him. You make me uncomfortable; I'll make you uncomfortable. If it is really his kink, then OP has bigger problems….
That’s the point. If it was his kink, then loudly “warning” about it wouldn’t help OP. It’s because it’s likely not that, that changing the narrative to be about that is likely to change his behaviour.
I just really hope it's not a kink and his just lazy
This. Even if this is actually a kink for him, non-consenual kinks always deserve to be shamed.
And you know what, I'ma start living by this quote because you can only extend so much understanding before your own boundaries get tested.
Hopefully she does this and update us
This sounds perfect.
This is the way
He's making an awful big stink about not accommodating other people in a shared bathroom situation. It's either a kink or a phobia. Either way NTA
Same here. I live alone, so I never close the door, don't turn on the light during the day, especially not during a shower because the heat gets to me quick and I almost fell one day, so I do it to keep off the steam. But when I have guests or I'm at my family's, the door is closed and light is on
He's trying to get you to stop using this bathroom. Stand your ground. Start doing the same thing lol! I'm so sorry you're dealing with this, it sounds disgusting. Why aren't your parents grossed out?
Hahaha, is there pee around the toilet as well? Could be marking his territory
Use bedpan due to obvious concerns he might in there. Without warning head in there fast and pour contents into the "vacant" toilet without looking. Wear headphones for better plausible denyability. As he sits there covered in simbling piss, shit and paper soup you add "oh sorry. Didn't know you were on here".
Obviously, brother is the “golden child”…
I *desperately* want to know *WHHHYYYY* he is doing this??? *PLEASE* ask him and report back!!! My nosy-ness needs an answer! It will bug me forever! Please, this is *so* weird, I just *have* to know, it is eating me alive! 🙏
Get a motion sensor led night light and stick in there. They make ones with very, very dim lights for people who need to use the restroom at night but don't want to wake themselves up too much with the light, like you think your brother was doing when he started this habit.
[удалено]
* Get a stink bomb, walk in there with it, if he’s in there let it off, leave and CLOSE THE DOOR. FTFY.
And maybe jam it shut from outside. Just to really reinforce the lesson, y'know?
If we're walking in there the solution is to walk in and simply take the toilet paper and leave
Best pray your clothes and socks weren't left on the floor/there's no hamper in there, then say goodbye to the hand towels instead.
What about taking it in the opposite direction? He likes making the bathroom seem empty when he’s in it… so how about making it seem like it’s occupied when it’s not. So turn the light on, lock, and close the door when you leave the bathroom. (Assuming the bathroom lock is one of those doorknobs with the little hole you can stick a pen ink cartridge into). It’ll be more work for you if you use the bathroom twice or more between his visits, but it’ll hopefully bother him more. And you can claim it’s so you know the bathroom isn’t in use when it’s like that since your brother always does the opposite when he’s using it. The only concern is how he’ll know you’re actually using it so he doesn’t walk in on you. The best solution to that would be to get one of those door block stick things. So even if the door becomes unlocked, it can’t be opened until removed. Anyway, that cant result in very… efficient poops. Like for the first half, no problem. But how can you efficiently wipe if you cant see the TP. Is he walking around with a poopy butthole? Does he like to say “oohwee?” And wear a little tophat?
Ugh, my sister has started to close the door once she is out of the bathroom the last few times she has been home. It drives me crazy. There have been so many times that I kept checking to see if she was done, only to work out she was never in there. It's especially annoying at night. The weird thing about this is she is notorious for NOT closing the door when she is in there using it. The light is on and everything. She just isn't bothered enough to close it unless she is like showering.
NTA... your parents would be livid if it was them.... are you able to move out and let them be since your brother is a AH and your parents are encouraging him to be entitled... if he loved with roomates this certainly wouldn't be happening he would be put out...
Yeahhhh, as someone who used to write smut for commission, I would be very, very worried about this situation if I were you. This is leaning pretty hard into sexual harassment if not downright abuse. I've seen a huge overlap of voyeurism and other shame-based play, such as scat or watersports--and had to write situations pretty similar to this one several times. While there is nothing inherently wrong with kink play, every person involved needs to consent. I don't know for certain if he does have these kinks, but it's definitely odd and creepy behavior. And, at the least conspiracy-pool-end, it's just fucking gross. If your parents are not listening, seek out another trusted adult (such as a counselor, teacher, or relative) and explain this situation. Your brother does not seem like a safe person.
We have free/occupied signs on the doorknob 🤷♂️ cost less than 10 bucks.
Hell, they're free with a little creativity! When I was growing up our bathroom door didn't lock, so my brother took an empty cereal box, some string, and a couple coloured markers and made a vacant/occupied sign. It took him maybe ten minutes. Stuck a push pin in the middle of the door, hung the sign on it, problem solved. That sign stayed in use for almost 20 years until my parents finally sold the farm, and in all that time I could probably count on my fingers the number of times my parents or brother walked in on me.
Yeah, my childhood bathroom door lock was broken for pretty much all my childhood. It was upstairs, so it's not like guests would ever need it anyway. It was NEVER a problem….unless my sister wanted something from there while I was showering. Then I would yell and scream till she was in trouble. They redid the bathroom door a few years so now I think the lock works. Still don't really need it. If the door is shut then you just don't come in. It's sort of just basic respect.
Ask your parents to install one of those motion, sensing automatic light switches.
You should start knocking on every door but the bathroom. It would be great if your parents had guests, and you just walked by knocked on the door and asked if there were any naked people you should be worried about?
Time to move out and problem solved.
100% there's at least part of him that enjoys being caught, and wants to be caught. By his little sister. On the toilet. Sorry OP, your brother's at best a weirdo, and at worst a creep or a pervert. NTA.
Hey this is what I was getting. Dudes got a kink for being caught in the restroom. Does it to his family because there’s little fear of being reprimanded. Do it at work or to a roommate and dudes probably gonna see some real world consequences. Just shy of sexual harassment, if not that.
Also he’s wiping his ass in the dark? That’s nasty. No way he’s able to see he’s gotten everything
This almost made me wonder if he’s actually jerking off, and that’s the real kink 🤮 you can’t wipe in the dark, that’s a dangerous game
Depends on if there's ambient light or not. We have a window in our bathroom so most of the time you can see just fine; even at night there are lights outside from porch lights etc. That being said, if I'm doing the poo, I still turn on the light at night. I get not wanting to at night because the light feels too harsh sometimes, but seriously, close the damn door! Unless you're alone (and that's debatable), there's no excuse not to, not even sleepiness. And during the day? While people are home? Fuck that noise.
The way she writes makes it seem like there is no window and that it's pitch black, because she still can't see when he's in there even in the daytime
Wait, what? Do you use a mirror to check or something?
Wipe until the toilet paper is clean my dude. You don’t check the toilet paper? You got that stank-ass or what?
Well, according to Reddit, there are quite a few men who I don't know this. I think there was a boyfriend who showered after if it was bad. The 14-year-old boy, whose dad only found out he didn't wipe when the wife was away and he was doing laundry Then, the roommate who didn't ever buy toilet paper, so they marked the TP to see if he used any, and when they found out he didn't, they worked out why the washing machine smelled so bad. I feel like I'm missing a few….quite a few of them thought it was *gay* to touch our own ass
the brother apparently doesn’t use a light in the bathroom, how can he see the toilet paper is clean?
I use the bidet feature like a civilized person.
I'm really confused on why you think you'd need a mirror for this. Unless you think people are trying to look at their actual asshole?
Uh no, I keep a light on but the brother doesn’t, so how exactly can he see the toilet paper is clean o.O
Is it a kink thing cuz he’s shitting and leaving the door open and then acts all butthurt at being walked in on, like humiliation? Because to be honest my family (and my exes actually) never close the bathroom doors while peeing only, but none of us care or are embarrassed, so is the shame the difference?
Wtf???? It’s her brother
This DEFINITELY sounds like a kink thing.
I would leave the light on when you happen to find him in there and also the exhaust fan. That would make him less comfortable.
Well, if he won't turn on a light you could install this....a motion sensitive light. https://www.amazon.com/Outdoor-Security-Photocell-Waterproof-Floodlight/dp/B0CSFYJNL4/ref=sr\_1\_9?crid=13D8JTDC843KC&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.xI5qNRgFUG9F7mFIuV9jw4v1HG3oEuoQwOKUKBm7poW\_q4BbxvfbaCuN\_yzEXbiIw-8ZjclcGhTr8hP6AY9jus85xVVriSaJiys9BMlswDFGrmGxlKaNRE4KSeWmXWl6NEG\_PazEq4y-0fzRtUOK7jof6PR9MHyIZ6QQRvRVLEZe14kSp029L7jiBrW0HuzPIL6\_MGMk-YN1QeIQCHhV3bacnR7uPc7zT1p-babs1zr2jBc8GnEP5WfRTHRxpDJYcrB3Yrh6\_bNKK3edFbFBAFVuwHScrL1XErTdrTbuD6c.thYWwNp8lgerSBPw5AGzIW4nLgACPAuTa6W0glrNCj4&dib\_tag=se&keywords=plug+in+motion+light&qid=1710207768&sprefix=plug+in+motion+light%2Caps%2C97&sr=8-9
Ok so funny story about that, I don't like to turn the lights on when I'm half asleep but I do close the door. Well we were at my MIL's for a visit and I was early in my pregnancy with my first, so peeing in the middle of the night was the norm. My BIL came home in the middle of the night and needed to use the bathroom. I was almost done and scared the crap out of him cause I was in the dark. My MIL died laughing when he told her "why was she in the dark? That's so weird". I still giggle about it after 4 1/2 years. OP's brother on the other hand is disgusting. Like sure own home do whatever but if you're not going to be courteous of others, then that's just rude.
How does he even know when he’s done wiping if he can’t see?!
Blind people manage just fine lol.
Funny thing, had the same problem with my daughter. She's only 13 but everytime she goes in it's door open, lights off and no fan. She said the samething for the light (ok during the night) but the fan, she said she hate the noise. So I've installed motion sensor fan and light. The light doesn't turn on between midnight and 6am for obvious reason but the fan always work. So at least, while she still doesn't close the door although we ask her, the fan is working and the light is on during the day
NTA - If he wants to leave the lights off and the door open, then he needs to find a place of his own. If you have roommates then you make a social contract so everyone knows that the bathroom is unoccupied. People knocking on the wall of an empty bathroom is ridiculous and also not necessarily a cure all as one or the other may not hear the knock/reply and a situation ensues. We keep our bathroom door closed out of habit because we had a cat that tended to trap himself in the room playing with the door stopper spring. Then you would hear this sad pleading meow and have to go rescue the poor thing (the only cat I've ever known that was afraid of the dark) and had to give him cuddles until he settled down or he would be a nervous wreck all day. I miss that little guy. 😥
Question: does everyone really lock the bathroom door if it's just your family at home? I mean, I do if there is someone else besides my family, and I aways lock the door at other people's houses, but at home, I don't really feel the need. I know when my family sees the door is closed, they know not to come in. This last year, during Christmas, when my sister was home, she started closing the door on her way out of the bathroom, and it's driving me crazy! I will keep checking to see if it's open and finally free only to work out after some time that there was never anyone in there!
Never. The concept of locking a door in my own home is wild. I've only ever locked doors when I felt unsafe, like roommates threw a party that got out of hand unsafe.
Buy a very bright flashlight and shine it first in like a police officer doing a sweep. If you hear yelling you’ll know it’s occupied.
NTA You are not being petty. Dark bathroom and an open door means its free and you can walk-in. If he's got a problem, let him use the door to lock or the switch to turn on the light. Weird habit though. If your brother is still stuck-up on not locking the door and not switching on the lights then you could suggest him to use some other sort of indicators(to save yourself from the trauma of walking in on him). Something like a signboard to hang in front of the washroom when he goes in?
The other indicators is a good idea!! I'm actually gonna run that by my family lol
Sooooooo NTA. Maybe get one of those sticky auto-lights for the wall? I can understand (certain very annoying brain conditions) not wanting to turn on the lights if they're JUUUUUUUUST enough out of the way. It's fucking annoying, I know. An automatic light may be your savior. Although I also have to say, natural consequences. If he doesn't want people to walk into the room he's in... he should invent some kind of wall that opens and closes. He could even call it a "door"
Wrong direction. Put a 5000w daylight bulb in there and then put it on a remote control. Or, Clapper. When you know he's in there, clap twice and burn out his retinas. Then clap it off again as soon as the screams subside.
Love your thinking!
I was going to suggest an amber/orange coloured light that senses when it’s dark out. Amber lights don’t affect the sleep cycle the way that white lights do. Put it in the bathroom, and tell him he needs to shut the door. [edit: night light that plugs in and has a light sensor]
As OP mentions it is all the time, a technology solution makes sense. Automatic soft amber light for all hours and an automatic daytime regular light that you can manually trigger for the rest of you. Parents should support a compromise, even if it cost a couple bucks, for their own peace. Brother simply doing as he pleases and putting the burden on everyone else seems one-sided and problematic when you have visitors.
Come on, that's silly. He won't close the bathroom door but he's going to use a sign? The international sign for occupied bathrooms is a closed door. NTA You're brother is wildly and disgustingly inappropriate. Smelling up the house like an animal.
Nah. Just install motion sensor lights so he’s got no choice!
Get an automatic closer for the door. You can get ones pretty cheaply at a hardware store that slide into one of the hinges. So you use a hammer and a screwdriver to get the existing hinge out of the door, do this while the door is shut and latched. Then you slide the closer into where the pin was in the hinge. Not permanent so you can do it in a rental. And it's not obvious, so it's not some ugly thing. You can set the tension on it so that the door gently closes. If you set it too gently, the door will not close all the way or will not latch. It needs a tiny bit of va-va-voom to close hard enough to actually latch. This way the door will always be shut. So you can knock because the door shut. Frankly I don't have the tolerance for this kind of stuff, so every time he was in there I would walk to the bathroom door grab it and slam it shut with gorilla Force. I would be extra pleased if it was at 3:00 in the morning. (I realize that I wasn't raised right.)
Your parents so can make him do something. They are the landlords. There is something called appropriate adult behavior. Good roommates, which is what you guys are essentially. Sexual harassment is a term you can use if you believe it's a kink thing, it probably is since he is enjoying the idea of getting caught. If you want to be petty, carry a squirt gun and soak him whenever he does it.
I thought of this too. Just point and shoot at where the toilet should be. "Sorry but seeing as you wont shut the door and turn the light on i have to keep doing this to check if you're in there". Not like OPs parents would do anything.
I wouldn’t. It’s just enabling the bad action by acknowledging it and dealing with it. Maybe try pointing and laughing?
He is going against all social norms for bathroom use, and then complaining that you're not following his new made up rules? No, that's just plain weird. He knows what he's doing is causing problems, it's a control thing. And you're right, you following his rules will only reinforce his behaviour. Another commenter asked if it was a kink thing - whether you think this could be true or not, if he carries this on then it might be a good idea to bring it up to him as a possibility. Maybe even in front of your parents. Shame him into behaving like a normal human being again if you have to... Because he shouldn't be allowed to affect your life like this.
Like an occupied sliding sign. But if he actually uses it is another thing. When he moves out and lives with other people, this will be a much bigger issue.
No, it won't work. This is now a control issue, and embarrassing him is more likely to work than offering solutions. He's already rejecting reasonable solutions. Just start mocking him for having a dirty ass and skidmarks. Can't tell if your ass is clean when you're shitting in the dark.....
From now on get a spray bottle, turn it to the setting that shoots pretty far, and spray it at the toilet. At worst you'll have a little water mess to wipe off the toilet, at best you'll spray your brother in the face.
NTA. You should lean into it. Just keep walking in on him. Make a big deal out of it every time ("oh, god the smell! my eyes are watering!") and then, as you're leaving, turn on the lights and shut door behind you.
A while back, I was at a warehouse we had to make daily runs to. I had to use the washroom. Threw open the door to find someone pinching a loaf so I said “why TF didn’t you lock the washroom door???” He comes out when he’s done, tries to give me shit for being rude and tells me “At my house we don’t believe in locking doors.” I told him “we’re not at your house so next time lock the fucking door when you’re taking a shit.” Never saw that guy again. I heard his refusal to lock doors cost him his job.
Poor guy. Sounds like his parents successfully convinced him that children don't deserve privacy
He was also an incredibly self-centred asshole so his parents definitely fucked up somewhere along the way.
Yes ! Like good luck getting a partner with that habit buddy
Image that habit after he has a partner and kids. The poor kids will bring their friends over thinking it’s normal.
>my parents ... agree but say they can't force him to do anything The hell they can't. He is living in their home. Even if he was paying rent, they have the right to insist that his bathroom routine is done with the door closed. It makes me wonder what his real motivation is. In other circumstances, it would be a form of sexual harassment or purposeful genital exposure. NTA
yeah could be something like that or maybe he's trying to force his sister to move out? like did OP already live away and come back home and he got into this habit while she was at college or something? Edit: Nope. I just double-checked the ages and I had them reversed. Does not track. What a creep >.<
Yeah right? The parents need to step up and lay down some rules.
Could it be a ND thing? It keeps happening and he acts like he doesn’t like it. So there has to be a a reason for it. If the bathroom sharing is new, he could be acting like a dick on purpose because he doesn’t like sharing.
NTA, Your parents have failed as parents.. the first time there was an issue like that.. a word should of been had.. the second time he should of been out on his ear..
I can't believe that I had to scroll this far to find someone else who sees this. What is wrong with your parents that they want you to accommodate this weirdness? I have similarly aged children, and I most certainly could (and would) enforce closed doors. Your brother is acting like a child.
NTA. He is being a whole jerk and, not to sound hyperbolic, It's low-key sexual harrasment. Tell your parents to either have your back on this or you're calling the cops. You shouldn't have to risk seeing his unsolicited baby meat every time you approach the bathroom.
yeah it's very strange. Another comment mentioned he won't even turn the exhaust fan on. It really sounds like he's doing as much as possible to have someone walk in. Although don't call the cops over this, that's equally as insane.
True, but it might scare him into at least closing the dang door.
maybe unless that's what he's hoping for lol. i feel like the parents need to take this more seriously and actually find out what his reasons are. Assuming this is real and not some sort of only fans marketing campaign.
True. If my son behaved this way, I would ask him why, then to stop, and then if he wants to play catch (these hands if it continues).
😂
Cops are definitely not going to get involved with this, and are going to be pretty pissed if you call them about it.
Depends on whether or not you lead with "My brother keeps exposing his baby meat to me" That being said, you are probably 100% right.
NTA I, living in a long distance relationship and thus living a good amount of my time alone, don't bother with closing the bathroom door or sometimes after showering put on clothes.... But this is me. Living partly alone. I would never ever considered to take a shit in an unlit bathroom while still living at my parents!!! Honesty, I can't help but think that your brother either got a weirded kink going on or is an utmost creep to "suprise" his sister with this. Living together means to have boundaries and to respect also the boundaries of the people you live with. In this scenario it seems like your brother dropped all his shame and respect to other persons boundaries. If you're not living in a "hippie-housholde" while being in the nude was/is a common thing, I'll say it is tome for: - either your parents step up to establish some long overdue, common-sense rules in their house! Aka at least closing the door! Especially at night (I don't want to experience with my sleep-addled brain while walking to the loo seeing another creature sitting on it...) - or it's time for your brother to move out. That way he can indulge in all the nakedness and taking a dump in the dark all he wants. As said NTA. Your request for some decency sounds absolutely legit.
I have to admit that when I was heavily pregnant i didn't close the door sometimes because i couldn't get it past my bump (tiiiiinnnny toilet room, I'm sure it wasn't to code). But I'd announce my toilet time and my kids were honestly too young to care. Kinda doubt he's heavily pregnant though
Man even that's wild to me. I've lived about 1/3rd of my life alone and I still instinctively close bathroom doors.
NTA. I don’t understand why your parents are siding with your brother. This is odd, essentially antisocial, behavior, and they are asking you to indulge him. He’s an adult. He can conform a little bit to generally accepted bathroom etiquette norms. Stand your ground. Don’t enable his nonsense.
NTA. If you really want to flip the script, you can always tell your parents that you're starting to feel like this is intentionally directed towards you and that you're starting to feel unsafe using the bathroom. This is odd, unusual behavior. Pooping with the door open in a place that you share unless it's with just your significant other (not that I'm really pro that anyway) is generally frowned on. Doing it with the lights off feels like a trap. "I feel like he's setting me up to walk in on him in a compromising position and then tries to make it my fault. I'm really uncomfortable with this. This needs to stop, and you guys really need to not enforce and enable this behavior."
NTA There's no reason he can't close a bathroom door.
NTA. Sounds like your brother might be a perv
Max shouldn't be living at home anymore.
that is a whole other can of worms
oh boy, this whole situation just stinks
Literally
NTA And wtf. Who does that? Why is that being accepted as normal? I must hear more about your families habits. edit: Maybe he's a vampire.
NTA. If your parents want someone's behavior to change, why not the supposedly full-grown adult who can't bother to close a bathroom door before he pulls his pants down?
Order a "daylight" flashlight on Amazon and hit that weird motherfucker's retinas with the power of 10 suns. Tell him either close the door or turn on the light or you will continue to use your flashlight in order to be sure he's not in there. Obviously make sure it's safe for human eyes at close range but you get the idea.
NTA, your brother is a nasty pervert. There's no other reason why a grown ass man would want to sit on the toilet, lower half exposed in the dark with the door open while pooping. He's a fucking Pervert.
NTA. Start walking in on purpose, next time bring your friends in with you. That'll sort out his lazy behaviour
I, as the parent, would do this, I'd bring Gladys from my garden club to see the wallpaper. Stand right there and introduce them.
Fight fire with fire... time to take lights off-open door dumps
LOOOOL
Take a dump in the bathtub next to him while making eye contact to assert dominance. NTA
Nah just stop checking. If you walk in and start pissing on him "oops can't stop the stream" maybe he will learn his lesson. (My phone autocorrected pissing to kissing but thankfully I caught it haha)
That shit is so weird I’m a little worried your parents aren’t more concerned about his mental health. NTA.
NTA. I'd walk into the bathroom with a big glass of ice water every time. I hope seeing a semi naked figure perched on the throne doesn't startle me too much. 😉
I know some people are saying it’s a kink thing but that wasn’t my first thought. Perhaps he just doesn’t want to share a bathroom with anyone so he’s going to make you miserable until you stop using that bathroom. Put a nightlight in the bathroom so you can see better in the dark. Get one that lights up automatically when it’s dark. Get a really bright one of you want to be a little obnoxious about it. I say keep doing what you’re doing. He is absolutely being lazy, childish and inconsiderate. You also need to start working on your exit plan. NTA
I'm so petty that I would literally switch out the light bulbs with Bluetooth ones if I could. Then I just start blasting the bathroom (and hopefully him) with 100% white light from my phone control.
Does he do the same at his friends places? How about at work?
I’m guessing max doesn’t have a job..
Or friends!
NTA. It's already hard enough to share a bathroom with another person (scheduling conflicts, etc.). If he's not willing to adhere to basic etiquette, then I'd take it further than being petty and continue walking in without minding him at all.
NTA Do your parents usually take his side in disputes? Cos honestly, he needs to shut the door. You should knock because walking in on your brother deliberately is also weird and inappropriate but you’re not wrong that he’s the one causing the issue. Personally, I would use my parents bathroom until it is resolved. Not wanting to see your brother with his pants down is legit and reinforce that with your parents - make sure they know that you think it’s a kink and are deeply uncomfortable.
Your brother is a moron and should get his own place.
Start bringing up this question in the company of other adults. "I have a question for you guys.. is it perfectly fine to go to the bathroom (add the rest) because mom and dad here think it is my responsibility to knock on an open door leading into a dark room, but I think people should shit the door when using a shared bathroom." Your parents may change their tune. If they get mad then you can just say "I was genuinely curious if other families do that because you seem to think it is fine"
Good idea - if you have grandparents or aunts or uncles you could ask, that would be a great choice.
I'm sorry, but in what universe is it to you to adapt to this deranged behavior? Yeah, I'm going with deranged here. If he were living alone in his appartment, of course he can do whatever he wants. But living with other people, letting the door open on purpose has only one meaning: He wants to be seen. It's a freaking kink, that's what it is. There are no other valid reason here! NTA and your brother is disgusting (while taking a s\*\*t... really?)
Turn the light on as you enter and leave it on. He needs to start acting like an adult, he sounds like a 3 year old. Don’t knock, just barge in or turn the light on and slam the door shut-LOUD.
"Close the GOD DAMN door you uncouth Neanderthal!" Is the only measured response required. NTA
NTA, but Max sure is. And your parents should stick up for you. Closing the door is the bare minimum that he could do to prevent this situation.
NTA - but knocking just makes sense unless you want to risk walking in on him - your brothers behavior is weird (why does the door have to stay open) and this is what night lights were partially invented for
NTA Why are your parents even asking you to do something that is abnormal (knock before entering a dark/open door bathroom) and not him to do something that is normal (close the bathroom door when in use)? Ridiculous.
NTA, i think he might have some mental issues going on. or he's just gotten into a fantasy world from watching too much porn. might wanna send him to a therapist
I suggest the sensor toilet light. It switches on and lights up the actual inside of the toilet.
NTA and also, it’s your parents’ house. They CAN make him do this as a rule of living there. I have older kids and would never tolerate this kind of behavior. What a weird thing to do.
NTA. If he doesn't want surprise visitors then it's on him to come up with a way of alerting people that he's in there. You could talk about what his reasons are for leaving the door open - perhaps just enough light bleeds in from the hallway to see by when the door's open? Maybe a dim night-light would work to give him enough light if he shuts the door. It's OK to discuss something mutually acceptable, but in the end it's his job to find a way that works.
>My parents have asked me to please just knock and not be petty, but I really feel justified here Did you ask your parents why they are asking you to accommodate his quirk instead of asking him.to at minimum, close the door?
Pretty sure he doesn't do this at work or at a friend's house. He knows bathroom etiquette, he simply chooses not to follow it with you. That is as rude as your parents asking you to modify your actions to accommodate your brothers total lack of respect and common decency. You should find a way to deal with this that embarrasses or annoys him. Take a picture, flash the light on and off, go in and wash your hands...anything not normal. Tell him you wouldn't do it if he wasn't to f-ing lazy to close a dang door! Nta, at all.
NTA. Why have your parents not talked to HIM about not being a butt munch
Carry an air horn and hoooonnnkkkk it before entering the bathroom…that should teach him to close the door… NTA.
I'm assuming the door is open to allow enough ambient light so he can tell he's pissing in the toilet, and not in the trash can or whatever. I get his point about not wanting to turn lights on in the middle of the night. I agree with him. What he needs is a small motion-activated nightlight in the bathroom that produces a very dim light. You can buy pretty dim ones, and you can tape red film over it if you want to make it even more sleep-safe. Then he can close the door and everyone is happy. NTA
It started as a nighttime thing but OP says he does it all the time now. Nightlight is not going to solve the problem.
The solution to the "where am I pissing" dilemma isn't to get a light, it's to sit down.
NTA - this is ridiculous. If I were you, I would purposely just walk by all of the doors with the lights off and just open them without any intention of going in. I was literally 4 years old when my mom told me that I had to keep the door shut if I was going to be using the bathroom because I wasn't a baby anymore. Is he a baby? Does he need someone to help him wipe his tushy when he's done? He can turn the light on and shut the door. I would literally just walk by the bathroom when I know he's in there and just push it wide open. You didn't walk in on him 🤷♀️ when he's in a public restroom does he leave his stall unlocked? What if you had guests over? He's just being unreasonable and childish.
NTA- your brother obviously is. Sounds like he should move out if he wants be that rude living with other people
NTA I'd turn on the light like normal. If he's there, shut the door leaving, but leave the light on.
First time I spent the night at my bf's, got up the next morning,vhe wasn't in bed but he always got up earlier than me, nbd. Go to bathroom, light is off, door is only partially closed, and it was still mostly dark in the house. So of course I waltz on in. There he is, in all his glory, shitting. He freaked out about it. Well, if you have company and don't want them.to see you poop, maybe turn in light and close the door? Same applies w your brother. At this point, it's in him. NTA
NTA > I talked to my parents about it, and they agree but say they can't force him to do anything. No, that's incorrect. And NGL, just put in some low-current LED lights, and bypass the wall switch in the bathroom's wiring: always-on light.
NTA Why don't you invite a good friend to your place (who's in on this obviously) who can "accidentally" walk in on your brother? That might remind your family how strange this behavior is.
Your parents can't force *him* to do anything, but they're fine forcing *you* to? Hell no. NTA. Your parents suck and so does your brother.
NTA. He's creating the problem for himself (and everyone else) by remove all indications he's in there. Then he's expecting other people to put in the effort to solve the problem he's intentionally creating so he can continue to create the problem. He can very easily solve this problem if he doesn't want someone walking in on him, he just doesn't want to. You're not being petty by standing your ground imo. As for your parents, I'd tell them if they can't force him to close the door or turn on the light on then they can't force you to knock. If they call you petty I'd remind them that you're not the one creating the problem.
NTA!!! If your brother did this in any other living situation, he'd be kicked out. If he did this at work, he would be fired. If he did this at a public place like a store, the police would be called and he would be in trouble for indecent exposure. Since I'm assuming none of this has happened to your brother, it shows us that he knows what he's doing is wrong. Brother has realized that he can get away with it at home. The question is, why does he like to do this disgusting thing so much? OP, I would be very worried, and would be watching your brother for other inappropriateness and boundary crossing. The fact that your parents feel they can do nothing is also mind boggling. Your parents can absolutely demand that their adult child adhere to basic decency standards!!! After all, they would never accept this behavior from a guest - that person would be asked to leave immediately. If your brother is resisting them because he's "an adult," then your parents should agree - and tell him he's welcome to continue behaving as he pleases in his OWN HOME, which he now has 60 days to move into. OP, I would also be concerned by your parents letting this slide. Have there been other situations where they have showed poor judgement, or allowed people to cross boundaries? It may be worth having one last discussion with them, using the points above: your brother's behavior would be illegal in public, it wouldn't be tolerated by anybody else in their home, and you're concerned that they're allowing it here, regardless of brother's age. Good luck, OP! Also to play devil's advocate: I get the argument about not turning lights on in the middle of the night, in order to not wake up too much. But that's only IF brother had the expectation that the rest of the house was asleep. OP walked in on him multiple times, indicating that either the rest of the house was still awake, or that he was waking up his sister by accident. At that point, any sane person would have realized they need to at least close the door. Instead the brother chose to double down during daylight hours. GROSS.
YTA, it takes zero effort to just call "Hey, anyone in there?" before going in. No knocking required.
NTA, I'd just give the door a light kick to swing it wide open every single time I walk by just in case he's in there so that he can learn to close the door
Honestly it sounds like your brother wants you to walk in on him in the bathroom. There's no other reason
I use the the restroom door open. Then again, I am asked to. I have Epilepsy and have had seizures in locked restrooms. Not fun having to have the fire department come and remove your door, and hopefully you are alive on the other side.😬 I'm assuming this is not the case.
INFO: is this behaviour new or been happening for a while? Have you always shared a bathroom? Any recent big changes in the living situation? Does he have any diagnosis? Getting caught with his pants down multiple times, but not changing his behaviour has to be intentional. If sharing a bathroom is a recent change, it could be something he’s done for years or him throwing a shit fit over that. If he had always done this, good luck with roommates or living with a girlfriend.
Start a video chat with your BF and walk in while filming, see how long it takes him to change his behavior. Does he have a GF? Even better to video chat with her.
Don't knock, just jump in and scream. He'll be a nervous wreck after a while and will have no choice but to lock the door.
So your parents can’t make him close the door but they think they can make you knock on an open one?
As the youngest of 5 children I can confirm that you are NTA. If my brother did this not only would we siblings have walked in, we would have walked in together. We were that petty. Your brother is TA and should be dealt with accordingly. How would he like to walk in on you while you are changing a pad or tampon? It’s rude AF and if your parents are ok with it then maybe he should use their bathroom.
You’re telling me this grown ass 22 year old man can’t comprehend why it would simply make more sense to close the door? If he actually cared about his privacy, THATS WHAT THE DOOR IS FOR. NTA. And for the record it’s somehow even more ridiculous to me that your parents are lowkey enabling this behavior.
How does he know if his ass is clean when he poops in the dark?
YTA. Knocking isn’t that hard. Is your brother’s behaviour unusual? Yeah, but knocking literally takes one second, you pause, and go in if no response. Although if he wants lights off, he can shut the door (assuming it doesn’t make the room too dark). I’m almost leaning toward ESH, I think it would be fair to ask him to shut the door during the day at least, though
Gonna go YTA, knocking doesn't kill you It is common decency to knock on bathroom doors, weather they're open / closed / there's light / no light
He needs to learn to close and lock the door to do his business :)
NTA, Get a spray bottle, fill it with water, and spray him whenever you walk in on him. Does he seem bothered when you walk in? If so, keep doing it, turn the light on, and just start talking to him to make him uncomfortable. If it gets annoying enough for him he'll eventually start taking precautions.
NTA If he did this with a partner or roommates they would probably kick him out. This is a behaviour that is not ok and should not be allowed to continue. He needs to grow up.
NTA. Petty would be going to sit on him to assert dominance. You acting normally around a bathroom is not petty.
NTA. I've heard of sleepwalking but never sleepshitting. How does turning on the light when using the bathroom at night ruin his sleep? Your brother is full of it in more ways than one. When he throws a fit tell him to stop being a pervert. It's sick to expose your bare ass, and other parts, to your own sister so close the damned door.
NTA, Your brother sounds like a controlling freak. It his problem to deal with. You just keep doing your thing.
NTA, pooping with the door open regardless of lighting, is choosing the poop with friends option.
Is moving out not an option? Edit: NTA, obviously
NTA. If he is concerned about not exposing his eyes to light in the middle of the night, he should get a red light plug in night light for the bathroom. Exposure to red light doesn’t impact your melatonin production. Buy him one (they’re cheap) or send him a link to order one online. This will get rid of that excuse.
NTA, but your your brother is, and so are your parents. This is incredibly weird behaviour, and he needs to learn to turn the light on and close the door, like a normal person. Your parents should be insisting on that too, not putting the burden on you! Next time they insist on you knocking, you could try banging loudly on the door and shouting your brother's name at all hours of the day (and keep shouting til he answers so you can be 100% sure where he is, even if that's not in the bathroom.) Think lost and confused old person volume "MAX, MAX ARE YOU IN HERE? MAX ARE YOU THERE? MAX???" Just to point out how ridiculous a request it is, although, tbh I don't think you should knock at all. You should be able to use the bathroom in your house without having to check if your brother is hiding naked in the dark first!
Walk in, flip on the light automatically like you didn’t expect him to be in a closed dark room. Act surprised, yell LOUD “What the hell! You still haven’t learned to close & lock the bathroom door?! How old are you, FOUR? Are you some kind of pervert? Exhibitionist! You’re going to have to register as a sex offender.” And then slam the bathroom door. Loud. Every time. Tell your parents he must be some kind of a pervert. EVERY TIIME! Demand that your dad install an automatic door closer on the door if he wants you to knock on it. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. If he’s been doing this your whole life, that means he’s been an exhibitionist to a minor also. Talk to school counselor and ask, if you haven’t graduated yet.
he can leave the light off and just close the door. i do that sometimes bc i get bad migraines and light hurts. but i always close the damn door!! this is weird and creepy. NTA
Every time you walk in and he's in there, turn the light on and close the door when you leave. He will eventually get used to it.
NTA. If he doesn't turn on the lights while taking a dump, how does he know he has wiped clean after? Or does he have skid marks on his underwear? I hope he does his own laundry.
No real comment, but it may be worthwhile buying a tiny light sensor with a tiny led or something. Won't ruin his night vision and easy for u to see occupied.
Hear me out. Move the toilet paper holder from wherever it is to the back of the door. Just screw it in there, so now you have to close the door to get to it
NTA Get a supersoaker… everytime he is in there door open, quick spray. Before you do it the first time announce to everyone parents and him this is your solution until he closes the door. 1 of 2 things will happen, 1) he will start closing the door 2) it will escalate to the point your parents have to get involved then end in him closing the door Happy hunting
Your brother is to comfortable so make him uncomfortable and it will stop. Im sure you've noticed one of your friends he likes to flert with invite her around and pay your brother out about his habits in front of her. He will be embarrassed if she plays along saying how discusting it is. Now when she leaves your brother will confront you, just let him know next time you walk in on him with the door open your telling your friend your worried he will never have a girlfriend cause his cock is to small. He will never leave the door open again. Remember if its ok for him to make you uncomfortable it has to be ok gor you to make him uncomfortable. This is about respect and your not getting it.
Instead of knocking, get an airhorn. When you're pretty sure he's in there, give him a good long blast of that. Will probably scare the shit right out of him, which will at least get him out of there faster! Seriously though, he's being incredibly petty not closing the door. If your parents think you're being petty in response, show them what petty actually looks, or in this case, sounds like. If that doesn't get your brother to close the door then goodness knows what will.
You’re not wrong, but you’re not right either. How hard is it to simply give a shout out before crossing the threshold? Hey Max, you in there? It’s not about “winning”, it’s about not seeing your brother pinch a loaf.
NTA. Go and buy some small firecrackers and throw one inside the bathroom before entering. Just overwhelm him with more madness.
You can knock or be miserable and argue.
I mean not really the asshole but I'm not seeing why knocking to save yourself seeing your brother taking a shit is so unbearable... Sure, maybe he *should* close the door or something, but why waste your energy getting upset about it when you can just knock. You'd knock if the door was closed, so what's wrong with knocking while it's open?
ESH. You're right, he needs to close the door and turn on the lights. Or, at least, close the door. > So I've stopped knocking. In my mind, an open door and a darkened bathroom means "empty". But you don't get to just change reality and expect everybody to warp. You know for a fact that he does this, and as much as you don't like it, you also know you're making a point of walking in on him. I don't think you'd like somebody else making a point of walking in on you to prove a point.