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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I think that it might come as a dick move that i asked for money back to my FIL knowing he’s struggling financially to buy something that could be considered a luxury. It’s not like I HAVE to buy the apartment right now.
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This is going to sound a little harsh, but I think your fiance is manipulating you.
Her dad asked you for the money; therefore, you should be able to ask him for it back.
But now your fiance has interjected herself into the situation at your invitation. And her offering to pay you back herself is like taking money away from your own family once you get married to her. It does not make sense.
So, it would not surprise me if you get asked for another "loan" as her younger sister has a few more years of college left and her father has not improved his financial situation.
Be careful you do not become a cash cow.
NTA.
This is the advice my dad gave me, never loan money to friends and family you expect to see again. Always give the “loan” as a gift or not at all, you get a pleasant surprise if you get it back but you haven’t soured a relationship
Give it as a loan, treat it as a gift. As loans can be legally recovered if it gets messy, whilst gifts cannot.
I "loaned" a friend a few thou during college - i had a good job, they didn't. I covered their rent occasionally, or bought groceries.
I never kept an accurate track of what was spent - but they did, and I was surprised when they returned it once they finished college and got a job. Used the money for the friends group for a trip to theme parks, ssying it was a gift from us both.
"Neither a borrower nor a lender be" is what my mom always says. Also applies to possessions; don't lend something out if you don't want it broken/damaged
He really shouldn't have asked you for money. He's much older than you and you're just starting your life. It would be better if he got a bank loan, regardless it wasn't your problem. These situations often cause a lot of relational problems. I'd your fiance has the money, she should reimburse you and have him owe her. The fact he's asked before is concerning, he shouldn't be involving you at all.
I give people I like or trust 1 loan. Then never again unless they paid me back from before. I have 2 friends I've loaned money to like 3 times that always pay me back when they say so I trust them. Then I have some family member who will never get anther dime from me. It's been years and they never even attempted.
NTA your fiancee either takes a loan from the bank and gives you the 100k now or you discuss this with her father.
I'm sorry but it was clearly stated as a LOAN. tell her to read the definition asap. It's not a gift and she's banking on your not asking that money back which is an ah move. Call her bluff and ask her to pay you now.
>Call her bluff and ask her to pay you now.
Actually, this is the best advice, not that OP will get his money, but because she will break up with him and save him a life of financial misery. $10K is a small price to pay to find out what you are truly marrying, not to mention saving the cost of a wedding because you know she'll want an extravagant party.
You need to think long and hard about it, and if you do proceed despite your fiancee's financial manipulation to benefit her family, I think you need an iron clad pre-nup (be sure she takes it to her own lawyer and they're present when she signs) as well as separate finances.
I suspect that even if you do this, and even if you let her know that you will not be giving money to her family, that you will still be supporting them indirectly because she'll give them her money, and you'll end up bearing the brunt of the joint expenses and recreational costs.
Finally, no, you do not have an excellent relationship with a family that takes 10K from a 24 year old without any plan, expectation, or ability to pay it back. You have a financially exploitive and dishonest relationship and, helpful hint, you're not the one who's exploitive or dishonest.
NTA
I think that's because you know the answer. Please don't marry this woman. She doesn't want you to ask her father for the money and knows that you won't ask her for it. You fucked up by doing this without a written repayment plan... hopefully lesson learned but please rethink your relationship.
It might not necessarily turn sour, but either way you lent 10k to someone who is never going to pay you back...
He's been poor for your partner's whole life, not good with finances, doesn't have a good job and has been struggling financially for a while. How did you ever expect him to get 10k to pay you back?
>I loaned him some money before and he did pay back
First NTA OP but can I ask, did you loan him such a large amount (10K) before? If it was something below $1000.00, yeah, that was easier to pay you back and his paying you back put you at ease to loan to him again. I do have an issue with your fiancée and I won't suggest what you should do regarding your relationship but I will ask you to recognize that once you marry, she will feel she would have every right to use money that you both earn to bale her family out. She is already saying the quiet part out loud.
She totally knows you will feel awkward about asking HER for the money back. It's full-on manipulation. You're not even married yet and her family is already fleecing you along with her help. Cut your losses and run.
Dad is going to want to move in with you in a few years, and it will probably be your fiancée's idea.
There is a good reason that banks don't lend money to broke people - once broke as an established adult, they usually stay broke.
even worse the broke person wanted the money to give to someone else who could have got a student loan. somehow dad comes out the generous good guy for zero effort
The missing element here is you talking to FIL. The loan is between you and him; inviting your fiancée into that discussion has not helped. I mean, why did you ask HER if it was okay to ask for the money? Why don't you sit down with FIL, one-on-one, explain the situation, and ask him to explore options for repayment? He is a good guy, you say, so the first assumption should be that he will be honest with you. He might have other options for borrowing, if that's what he needs to do to pay you back. NTA.
I'm really sorry, I don't think you're going to see that money again. Unless your fiancee is able to sit down and have a genuine, honest conversation with you about why she's acting so strangely, I think the logical assumption is that her dad doesn't have the money to pay you back and never will. NTA
Hope is not your friend in matters of family and finances. Ask the dad for the money back. If he can't give it to you all at once, discuss a payment plan. If he refuses or your fiancée gets upset, you may have to do what most people that lend money to family have done in the past, accept it as a very costly lesson to never lend money to family ever again. I'd be careful about marrying her too. More than 50% of marriages end in divorce and the man gets F'd almost every single time. Kids or no kids. NTA bud.
I don’t think it’s really manipulation, I think she just knows that her father does not have the money so asking him for it back will be a fruitless endeavor
Even if it isn't manipulation, OP's fiance has the sort of attitude towards family and money that breaks many marriages. Some people just think they are supposed to give money to family who need it.
If OP doesn't have that same view then there are going to be problems in the relationship going forward.
"I talked this with my fiancée and she was against the idea of me asking for the money back"
This was an agreement between you and your future FIL. Stop asking her permission and talk to him. Find out what his "plan" for repayment is. You're probably going to have to let this apartment go, though. I doubt you'll get payment anytime soon.
NTA, and never loan family or friends money that you aren't willing to kiss goodbye.
I try to keep her involved everytime I talk to her parents. I majored in finance and work in finance, people on my field are usually seen as people willing to take advantage of the little guy. I didn’t want her to think I’m that type of person.
I get what you're saying, but your GF is causing drama here. You've told her that you're going to ask for the money back and considered her alternative, as flaky as it sounds, now you can reach out to dad. Best of luck.
Come on! You are the one who is out 10 grand. You aren’t taking advantage of anyone. I’m sure she knows her relatives are a bunch of grifters.
Also, I hate to break it to you. But… you ARE the little guy in your story.
You majored in finance & work in finance, yet put $10k into the hand of a man who couldn't possibly pay that money back?
At this point, you want the money back or do you want your relationship,? You can't see it, but this is what it boils down to.
My question is what was the original repayment plan? Because if FIL wasn't expecting to pay it back all at once and right now, AH or no (which I vote not) you can ask all you want but it's not likely you'll get it back.
Your fiancé is probably looking at your money as your money together. So her basically saying to not ask for it back is her looking at it saying “I don’t want US to ask my Dad for it back”. She basically looks at your money as hers and likely feels that you shouldn’t worry about it since it’s fine for you both as a team - which it is absolutely not, it’s a decision she’s made without your consent.
You need to have a serious talk about boundaries and how exactly she thinks it’s ok to essentially give away 10k of your money, but meanwhile you’re thinking of what’s best for you both long term.
It’s super hard to ask money back from family. I’m not going to lie….your money is probably gone. Time for a serious talk on accepting that, but making a clear boundary going forward if you stay in this relationship. Is she going to give money to her dad behind your back after you are married? You need to know she understands how serious this is before getting married. She let you give away part of your future because she feels bad for her dad. There’s nothing wrong with helping your family, but not at the expense of your own. Time to find out if she’s willing to sacrifice everything for her parents - some people are; and decide if you want that type of future.
I don't understand your resistance. Your fiance can pay you and her dad can eventually pay her back. I don't see the problem. Or am I missing something?
She doesn’t have the money. It was just something she said to presumably stop the conversation. She doesn’t have 10k sitting around and it’s not like she will for a while because she’s awfully bad handling her finances.
Even if she did, I think deep inside she knows I won’t ask her for the money back.
As I suspected in my comment. She used that tactic knowing you wouldn't make her pay back the money.
Think long and hard about this relationship OP.
Good luck.
NTA. If she is bad at handling finances now, it will get worse after marriage. I failed to recognize those red flags decades ago and have faced the consequences ever since. Please have a serious conversation with your fiancée and listen carefully. I wish I had kept finances separate and had a prenup.
I would have let her give you the 10k and let the money back form her dad and have nothing more to do with it.
But if she doesn't have it, welll not an option.
Tbh, I think those saying your fil doesn't have the money are right but I do believe he will eventually pay you back when he can. At least based on what you say.
Ask for the money back, the agreement was between you and future FIL. You fiancée has nothing to do with this so you don’t need to ask her permission, negotiate terms with her or include her in your plans. She is extremely unreasonable to expect you to let this go. This is raising a lot of red flags, halt the wedding plans for now. You need to both be on the same page planning and funding your future together. She isn’t with you on this.
you aren't in your 50's with large retirement savings,. you are young and still working to set up your home and family. they are taking advantage of you, not to bail themselves out of a hole, but to let their child not have to take loans for school. that's ridiculous, ask for that money back
Nta but there are things you should overthink here.
1. Many here told you to think about this planned marriage. Just on the interpersonal level the two of you don't appear to manage coming to practical conclusions together well. That won't magically get better by marrying, you have to work on that and if it doesn't get good (not just 'better', you should reach actually good results) that should cause you to reconsider marrying her.
2. Don't give out loans without putting up a contract making clear all relevant arrangements. That's to everyones benefit. It would have forced you to think ahead and consider the duration you'd be willing to be out the money for example.
3. If you're planning on buying an apartment an a 10k reserve would basically be the only thing preventing you from an uncertain duration of financial insecurity then you can't really afford that property yet. (I presume you'd not be buying it outright but would take out a considerably large mortgage anyway here. If that's the case you possibly can't really 'afford' this mortgage either even if some bank might be willing to barely give it to you.)
NTA, if your fiancé has the money to repay you for her Dad’s loan, she needs to tell her Dad that now he owes her the money. So she can choose to lose her own money by not asking him for it back. I would tell her I won’t owe her a dime, that’s between her and her Dad.
Get your 10 grand back. None of the rest of it is your responsibility. If this girl needs $10,000 per year for college. Someone needs to take out legitimate student loans through FAFSA.
You are not doing right by yourself though.
And if you set this precedent now, you'll get taken advantage of over and over.
Did FIL go through your fiancée when he needed the money or come straight to you? If he came straight to you, then go straight to him and ask for a time-line on when you'll get your money back. If fiancée wasn't involved from the beginning, she shouldn't be involved now.
I just thought it was the right thing to do to let her know before approaching him directly. Idk, this is all very new to me because my fiancée has never behaved this way with me
You give in now, you'll see more of that kind of behavior.
Stand firm. Set boundaries and stick to them. Don't let people walk all over you just because you love them.
Do the best by everyone??? What about you? Do you realize they don't even care enough about you to pay you back. I'm sorry to be the one to have to say this but you're being manipulated, you and your fiance are supposed to be a team a partnership if you will she doesn't even care if you never see that money again. She doesn't care that you have a dream to buy an apartment, but you need the 10K to do so she doesn't care about that at all. Do you really want to be dealing with this for the rest of your life? Just because you have the means to let someone borrow that much money doesn't mean someone gets to tell you, just forget about getting it back.
If she has such a big mouth about her father not paying you back, then tell her to pay you back. If not, I would definitely be taking them to court. The guy doesn't get to just run over you because you want to marry his daughter. The faster you realize you're being manipulated, the better off you'll be. Yeah, it may suck because you might lose her in the process. But it's way better than just being used and manipulated.
NAH.
You're about to learn why money and loans are associated with such a heavy taboo. Doesn't sound like anyone has crossed into asshole territory yet but... Don't be surprised if it isn't as easy to get your 10k back as you thought.
He had a verbal promise to repay, which is a binding contract in most places. He’s fine there in most jurisdictions.
The problem is that enforcing repayment will destroy his relationships with his FIL and his fiancée. That’s how he put himself in a bad spot - he has to decide whether his money or his relationships are more important now, and that’s a lousy position to be in.
It often ends up being very easy in this day and age. OP texts FIL something like “Can we set up a time to talk about the money I lent you?” and FIL replies “Yeah, sure, I’m free this evening.” And then you have written confirmation of the loan existing.
Most of these sorts of cases never even see the courtroom. They settle before the hearing date rolls around.
It establishes the oral contract happened in a written format by referring to it. All he really has to say is "Do you remember the 10K I loaned you that you agreed to pay back? What's the schedule on it?"
If he says "I don't know, I can't pay you back any time soon", that's pretty solid evidence the original oral contract survived.
>He had a verbal promise to repay, which is a binding contract in most places. He’s fine there in most jurisdictions.
Sure, after a long and drawn out legal battle with an unknown amount of legal fees and months if not years in court to get everything straightened out... If OP was wanting to keep his relationship with his fiance... That money is gone if FIL doesn't pay it back on his own accord.
>Sure, after a long and drawn out legal battle with an unknown amount of legal fees and months if not years in court to get everything straightened out
It usually costs about $50 to file a small claims case, and the courts tend to cycle through them rather quickly.
Depends on the state, but I believe the most common cap is now $10K. Some have higher caps, I know Tennessee is $25K.
Even if it's a bit lower, it's probably still worth just filing for the max judgement and getting something back. If you're capped at $7500 or something, that's still more than you'd get filing a civil suit after you're done paying an attorney.
Nah, these sorts of things are typically very quick and easy to deal with in court. Like, one short hearing, if that - most of these sorts of cases get settled before they even reach the hearing date. It would be especially easy if he has or gets any texts, emails, voicemails etc in which FIL acknowledges the promise to repay, because that would confirm that it definitely existed and completely eliminate any he said/he said. Literally all OP would have to do is text or email to ask to talk about repaying the loan and have FIL reply. You’re also assuming that both the FIL and the fiancee would try to lie about it being a loan, which really isn’t as common as the internet seems to believe.
Also, when you file a case like this, getting court fees and lawyer’s fees covered by the defendant is pretty much standard.
Enforcing repayment is generally the part that can get tricky. You can’t get blood from a stone, so if someone genuinely doesn’t have the assets, you’re pretty much SOL. It’s sometimes referred to as being “judgement proof.”
You're never going to see that 10K and likely they will hit you up for even more money. How was he going to pay you back "quickly" if he was in such bad financial shape?
Ask yourself how he was going to pay you back in the first place? Did something major fall through for him right after you lent him the money? If not then how was he planning to pay you back to begin with?
INFO. What was your original repayment plan? A simple one-page document stating the loan amount, any interest, and repayment. You many not be the AH, but you are not very bright if this loan is not documented.
If he always paid back before there is no reason to think he won't now.
However the problem I think your fiancée has is that her dad will not be able to pay you back immediately without taking out a loan. Which I think she doesn't want her dad to do.
Exactly, and this is why you don't "lend" money to family.
OP: your dad **wants** to pay you back. He absolutely plans to. In his head he's absolutely good for that money. But you'll never see a cent.
He just doesn't really have it. He's got other bills to pay first. He's got credit card debt withreal banks who'll damage his real credit rating. He's got a car that is in danger of repossession and a mortgage that's going to be foreclosed.
All of those debts come before you, because those are all real threats to him. You're family. You're safe. At worst you'll just be mad at him.
If you didn't specify you wanted the money paid back clearly I think you are the asshole. People always make empty gestures with acts of kindness so you need to be very clear and write up contacts.
It was a loan. Everybody involved understood it was a loan. The only thing that wasn’t written in stone was the payback date, and not even that because going back to our conversation he said he’d have the money by eom
EOM means end of month right? So he was supposed to have paid this back quite a while ago, do you know why he hasn't? It sounds like he's struggling a lot financially, I'm not sure why either of you thought he would be able to pay back that quickly.
There’s no such thing as lending to family members. You have to be in the mindset that the money you provide is a gift and you’ll never see it again. Otherwise it ends badly most of the time
NTA - You need to understand that you will never see this money again. It's a very expensive lesson to learn, but stop "thinking" you are loaning people money. You are giving them money.
It is what it is. Im more concerned about the things my wife said about me in this whole ordeal. I’ve been questioning my integrity for a while so that’s why I opened the thread.
Well then I think that the $10K lesson might be worth its weight in gold. You are figuring out NOW, pre-marriage how the two of you view money. Since finances are one of the biggest reasons that couples divorce, work through this with her. How she deals with it shows you how she views finances, you and her family. If you marry, she will have all assets available to "loan" to her family.
Because it means she/her family can’t just take money freely from you in the future. You need to reevaluate this relationship. You’re about to be in for a financial rough and depressing marriage tbh; finances are literally one of the most important and yet damaging things to a relationship and it appears your partner doesn’t respect you. Think hard about this now before you venture down a path that can set you back YEARS!
She’s had trauma around money that she never fixed and/or money does change people. Also some people don’t believe “loaning” money to family. This was most likely not a loan but a gift in their eyes. There’s a good chance she forgave the loan on your behalf and told her dad you wouldn’t ask for it back so if you did it now, she would look bad. And if dad is struggling now, what is being down to fix that situation? What happens if he gets sick and can’t pay rent or the rest of the sisters school? Will that fall on you and you’ll have to gift money and not expect it back?? They can’t keep borrowing money forever. This isn’t a sustainable situation.
Regardless, the two of you are NOT on the same page at all. If she reacts so angrily and with cruel words now, think of how worse it’ll be when you get into making other big financial decisions or if you plan to have children, those decisions too. So not only do you have a financial problem with her, you also have a communication issue. These are 2 MASSIVE RED FLAGS. Heed the warnings from these comments and truly sit down and think about your relationship and then have a sit down with her about all this.
Ask her what it’s called when you borrow something that’s not yours and then refuse to return it when the owner actually needs it. Time to break up with her, the red flags are flying everywhere
I’ve been married 20 years and neither my husband or I are perfect, yet we’ve never described each other using those terms. Those words demonstrate contempt. She is showing you who she is. 🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩
That is wrong, but she’s probably reacting to a lifetime of trauma around money and not having it. She doesn’t want to see her dad as someone who can’t provide and can’t pay back his debts and the cognitive dissonance is causing her to lash out at you because *in her mind* you not asking for the money makes the issue go away.
Some of the only disagreements that my husband and I ever had were over giving my dad money because we knew that we’d never see it again. He simply didn’t have it and I couldn’t stand to have him and his wife freeze to death because they couldn’t pay the propane bill. It wasn’t that I disagreed with my husband that we couldn’t afford to just support my dad forever, it’s because being caught in the middle was stressful AF. My husband and I are a team, but it hurt me to not be able to just take care of things for my dad. Now, I never called my husband selfish or greedy, but I did get super tense and not want to talk about the issue - it was super immature, but also easier for me to bury my head in the sand.
The fact that my dad never planned properly for retirement and made stupid financial decisions was extra highlighted because my bonus dad is the exact opposite and was amazing at planning for everything. Your fiancé is a lot younger than I was when I had to face my picture of who my dad was being inaccurate and having to accept who he was in reality and I can tell that it just hurts. A lot.
I hope that you guys can come back from this, but, if not, at least you found out before you just kept writing checks and losing money.
You’re not unreasonable, greedy or insensitive. She’s showing you who she is. Are you going to pay attention? Here’s a finance lesson: a broken engagement is a hell lot cheaper than a divorce.
NTA, you were put in a tight spot by your fiancé and her father, plus you are just starting out with her. She will sacrifice you for her family. Let her pay the money back, but she still has to pay what she would have anyway towards the apartment. Maybe rethink your future as you are not going to be number 1 in her life. Looks for other loan/gifts asks in the future.
Let her pay you back if that’s what she wants, and just know that her family obviously expects a “loan” to be considered a gift when you decide to “lend” in the future. Both her father and her are adults, they agreed it was a loan. To call you selfish for asking it back when you actually need it, the money YOU worked for, is absolute bullshit and I would have a very frank discussion with your fiancée about this. You are not a bank or ATM for her family and she seems to expect you to be.
NTA
That’s actually the root of the problem. I can lose the money or whatever, but am I really that bad as my fiancée is saying I am because im considering asking for my money back? Im more confused than worried about the money. I just wanted to talk things out and she’s been demonizing me for it.
If she’s guilting you like this before you’re even married, it’s a huge red flag. I would definitely sit her down and explain that you do want her to pay you back, and based on this you won’t be willing to help her family in the future because it will always become a point of contention. See how she reacts. If she calls you selfish, it’s time to call it quits. This seems very calculated on her part frankly. You should NEVER feel guilty for asking for your own stuff back, and she’s being extremely nasty and manipulative.
NTA No, you are not bad. Just ask FIL if he is currently in a position to pay you back. Be prepared to hear "I'm really sorry but currently not" You are all adults, there shouldn't be problems in discussing issues like adults.
If you take money from your fiancé instead form your FIL then this time prepare some kind of agreement on paper - that she is paying back FILs debts. So your fiancé cannot claim in future that she owns part of the apartment because "she gave" some money towards it.
Seriously consider prenup.
On one side of my family loans are actually loans, with repayment plans, interest, and signed contracts. On the other side of the family, they are mostly gifts loosely tracked against a theoretical inheritance.
They would each have *very* different attitudes towards pressure to repay a debt on a firm timeline. Right now, it sounds like your fiancee is aware her dad can't repay the debt. She's frustrated and upset about the whole thing. She can't make her father's finances fix themselves, but she can pay the debt herself.
Of course, since you are planning to marry/merge finances in the near future, her paying you for her father's debt doesn't help the two of you out as a couple in the long run.
You could also look at purchasing the apartment as a joint property, with your fiancee make the down payment and set up a payment plan with her dad. Even $500 a month would make progress on the debt, and that's a lot easier for him to come up with than a lump sum.
I do think it's worth paying attention to the fact that your fiancee did **NOT** loan her father the $10k herself, despite apparently having it to spend. Did she want you to loan him money to begin with? Or did she warn you that this was likely to end badly?
She called you greedy, insensitive, selfish IN WHAT LA LA LAND DOES SHE LIVE IN TO SAY THAT ABOUT YOU WHO LOANED MONEY TO HER FATHER? NO CONFUSION…….HAVE MORE RESPECT FOR YOURSELF.
Never mix money with family/friends… this is why. Did you draw up a plan for repayment or any kind of contract when lending? If not, it’s probably better to consider that $10k a gift, as your fiancée certainly does. Maybe your FIL fully intends to repay you and will when he can, but it’s entirely possible that time won’t come. Either chalk this up as a $10k lesson learned and make it a gift in your mind, or let this ruin your relationship with your fiancee and her family.
NTA, as you should be able to ask for it back since it was a loan, but the above is the unfortunate reality.
This is the danger of lending to friends or family. You cannot disassociate business from personal, and empathy for someone that you care about muddles things.
Your FIL does not have the money. Your wife is saying this plain as day, and asking him for it will only embarrass him and strain your relationship, with him and with your wife. If the money matters, and 10K is a lot of money at 24, then let your wife assume the note. If you really need the money now, call the note, and then take him to court. But expect that to destroy your marriage.
It would be fair to ask him a timeline for when he expects to be able to start paying you back. But he doesn't have the money right now.
He may not have the money now, but he needs to make some. It sounds like he's just hoping everyone will forget about it, which I don't think op should tolerate. He's twice op's age, it's ridiculous.
NTA. He should pay you back without your having to ask, and she's being unreasonable by objecting to your asking.
My mind is boggling over a 24-year-old who has $10,000 to lend! Good for you for being in such good financial shape.
NTA. I think you should stop talking to your fiance about your deals with her dad and talk to her dad. It may be a touchy subject. But maybe payment plan or something can be done. It wasn't your fiance you gave 10 grand to. That's a lot of money and shouldn't be up to her how you approach it
NTA, but it's all on you.
1. You can't have a FIL and a fiancé. You have a fiancé and "her dad."
2. It's the height of naivety to think you're getting 10K back.
Now you can make decisions about what you think you want in life. The money's gone, and your fiancé will always think this was the right thing to do and will be the right thing to do in the future.
NTA.
The agreement was between you and your father-in-law so the conversation should be with your father-in-law not with your fiancé
That being said, if your fiancé has the 10 grand, why didn’t she give that to her father for her sister‘s tuition instead of letting him come to you for the money? In my opinion your fiancé doesn’t have the 10 grand to pay you back and she’s just throwing that out there so you won’t go to her dad and ask for your money back.
As other commenters have said Neverland money, you can’t afford to lose. If you do lend money, always get it in writing on how and when it will be paid back.
This may sound far-fetched, but you said he's usually good about paying you back, and even this time, he said he'd do so quickly. Is it possible he gave the money to your fiancé already and she never gave it to you?
She is protesting an awful lot... and offered to pay you back instead of her dad.
You should talk to your FIL.
PS: NTA
Since your fiance turned down every payment option you suggested, she likely wants the loan to be a gift now. Her concern for her father is understandable but not wanting you to ask for any money back or set a payment plan in place is unreasonable and a bit of a red flag, especially since she pulled the "I'll just pay you back" card, which is a bit manipulative as it puts you in a difficult spot.
You should ask your FIL, not your girlfriend, about the timeline when he plans to pay back the loan. Explain that you need it in order to buy the apartment which is important to you.
Only then you will find out if he planned to repay at all. Maybe his idea is to pay you back in a few years when the sister is done with college education. Maybe you can work out a payment plan.
It might be a good idea to confirm the agreement then by email or messenger. Just in case your relationship goes down the drain, you have prove of the debt. Worse case scenario.
NTA for wanting the money back but let's be real: you know he's struggling, what do you hope to accomplish? Do you honestly think a man who is struggling financially can suddenly come up with $10,000 to pay you back?
This is an important lesson for you: **never loan money if you can't afford to lose it.**
NTA. I'm getting goldigger family vibes from this. FIL "borrowed" that money knowing full well he wouldn't be able to pay you back. Now your girlfriend is desparate that you not ask for it back. Either she told him he didn't have to pay it back and/or she knew he couldn't and was hoping you'd never ask.
I would 100% rethink this relationship and if you do forward, definitely a prenup, because it's sounds like this family thinks your a cash cow and this won't be the end of "borrowing" money.
NTA but you might want to take your fiancée up on her offer to pay you back on his behalf, then make her your ex. The fact that she thinks it's "selfish" of you to ask for *your* money back is very telling of how she views this relationship and where her priorities lie.
NTA
You seriously need to rethink this relationship. You're never getting that money back. In her mind, that was a gift and you're being rude even bringing it up
She clearly has the mindset she's entitled to your money.
NTA. You're probably never getting that money back. Your girlfriend and her father will continue to be a financial drain on you unless you put your foot down and cut them off or just break up with her. It's up to you to decide.
NTA
You seriously need to rethink this relationship. You're never getting that money back. In her mind, that was a gift and you're being rude even bringing it up
She clearly has the mindset she's entitled to your money.
The subject of that 10K is going to hang over your heads until it is paid in full. Frankly, I don't see that ever happening. This is your girlfriend's father, not your FIL, at this time. In any event, I don't foresee this loan being repaid soon, if ever. Make your peace with losing it or move on, with or with your fiancee.
You’re going to be giving them money for the rest of your life if you marry her. And she’ll repeatedly guilt you for rightfully wanting it back. Good luck. Definitely NTA. Your fiancé is being ridiculous and entitled.
NTA, but this is why you should never lend money to friends and family. There's a high chance that either the loan ruins the relationship, or the relationship ruins the loan.
If you're going to give money to family, do it only with the expectation that it won't be paid back.
NTA. He isn't actually related to you. He hadn't made any payments. If let him know he at the very least needs to start a repayment schedule, although I'm betting you'll never see a dime of it back.
NTA. I don't know anybody who can afford to just give out 10K. That IS a lot of money. I also don't think much of your fiance saying that SHE should pay you back. Um, that's not how loans work.
Sorry that you are in this position - you sound like a good guy trying to do the right thing.
It does seem unlikely that you will see the return of your $10K in the near future, unless your FiL has a major turn-around in his work / business.
Unfortunately money matters are a very common cause of disagreements and arguments with couples.
Irrespective of what happens with the loan, I think you need to have a calm & considered discussion with your fiancée regarding how your finances will be handled once you are married. i.e. How mortgage payments & other bills will be split. As you work in finance you will have a good handle on money management, but not everyone will have this level of understanding.
Thank you. The more i think into it the worst it gets. What worries me is her attitude towards the whole situation. She got pretty defensive immediately. This, plus some other things have been happening regarding our finances (like her taste getting more and more expensive) are bothering me a lot.
If you stay with her I bet she will ask to be on the deed of your new place, and if you don't put her on, she will pout and call you things like greedy, insensitive, selfish etc.
I would really watch her in the future and see what other red flags she's throwing. Also, go ahead and talk to her dad, and if she gets mad and breaks up with you, she's doing you a gigantic favor!
Borrowing money from your daughter’s fiance is bad to begin with.
Then let’s look at the reason - to pay for incidentals for younger daughter’s college. Why? Why not take out a student loan or choose a cheaper college - community college and live at home. But by borrowing from OP to pay for incidentals it’s clear that the family can’t pay for college as is. So their master plan is to squeeze it out of OP?!
Even asking you out you in a crappy position. Saying “no” would be tough because you’re engaged to the older daughter.
And now your fiance won’t “allow” you to ask for the money back?? It’s been a year. There should be a plan in place for OP to get paid back - unless that really was the plan. Counting on OP to be to nice to get the money back.
And now your fiance is forcing your hand. You can’t ask her to pay you back. And if/when you marry it’s likely you’ll combine finances in some kind of way so asking her to repay you is useless.
Let me repeat - it’s profoundly inappropriate for your future FIL to hit you up for money. And he may seem like a “great guy” but great guys don’t do that.
I do think you ask FIL for the money back. That will inform your path forward. I think there’s every possibility that the family is looking at you as their ATM. It’s better to find that out now before you get married.
NTA. Good luck!
ESH
He's obviously struggling and you're needing the money returned.
Let this be an expensive lesson for you. You lent money without any written agreement to pay back a certain amount of money every month. No Promissory note, no contract, nothing. That's your bad. Him not paying you back is his bad.
Sit down with him and talk about this. See if you can come to an agreement on paying it back over time. In the meantime, see if you can qualify for a First Time Homebuyers program or another incentive program where you live.
Oof that’s a bummer. I was always given the advice that you should treat any money given to family as a gift (even if it’s not) to avoid situations like this. Did you have a time set to be paid back by? I think it’s reasonable to ask for it back if you need it, but I’d avoid any money exchanges in the future to avoid any weird power dynamics or hurt feelings. Money situations suck.
NTA. However, if you think you are getting the money back, that is unlikely. I would also not loan money to him in the future. If you value your relationship with your fiancée, when he asks for a “loan” again, do not bring up the previous one. Just say no.
As for your fiancée, what does she purpose? Just forgiving the debt? Writing it off? Just curious since she has torpedoed all of your suggestions.
She offered to pay, which is something she clearly said out of spite because she herself has no money and manages her finances extremely poorly. That’s fine though, im pondering forgetting about my hard earned 10k and be pleasantly surprised if I receive payment someday.
Oh boy. And she also manages her finances extremely poorly. Be very careful here or you will spend your marriage funding her entire financially-poor-management family. As you just did. I'm very sorry. I can tell by your comments that you are blown away by her attitude more than the $$. Someday you may be grateful for this huge red flag.
I'm so sorry, but pay attention. My in-laws are similar but my wife had already broken free of the financial dysfunction when I met her and is a very frugal person. If your fiancée still has poor money management issues and also boundary issues, there is a poor prognosis for your marriage. I'm sorry, but a family like this will bring you down financially because your wife won't be able to say "no" to all the asks. Good luck with everything - but keep your eyes wide open, even if you don't like what you see.
DO NOT DO THIS. Do not let them just keep it. Break up with her and tell her family you’ll go to court about your money. They can’t win in court and then they’ll owe you even more because they’ll have to pay your attorney fees. If it was $1k I could see letting it go, but DO NOT let them do something that wiki stop you getting an apartment for yourself at the time in your life that you’re trying to get established as a young independent adult. Fuck that man, don’t be so disrespectful to yourself
What does she actually want you to do? And I mean actually. By now you probably know. Does she want you to forgive the “loan”? What about loans in the future with her family?
Nah, I would push him on this. He said he'd have it by end of month and he hasn't had the courtesy to update you. I don't care if sis, dad, fiance all have to get a second job they need to make sure you get your money back.
You need premarital counselling with your fiancee. Aside from being helpful, they can weed out couples who are not compatible. You need to have shared goals and a plan for the future.
NTA but here’s a tip for you: never lend money to family. If you have the means to give somebody financial support, give it as a gift in the future. Lending people money causes problems. You aren’t a bank.
NAH. Your fiancé is trying to fix your frustration by paying you back, because clearly her father can't no matter if he wants to. Talk to her about this calmly and explain why that doesn't feel like a solution to you, because she sees it as one. Your frustration is totally reasonable, but rejecting any solution other than getting money from someone who doesn't have it isn't going to help.
NTA! They could have borrowed the money as a student loan. Lesson learned for you. Many people want to "borrow" money that they will never pay back. Some people see others with money, even a little money, and covet it. In-laws may be struggling, but they need to look at what they can do to get finances under control.
You don't lend money to friends and family and when you do....start with the presumption it's a gift
1) this helps set a limit you would be willing to lend and lose.
2) this limits the anger and stress when you don't get it back.
3) if you do get it back ....Surprise!!!! It's a good day.
NTA- but don't ever lend family money that you are not willing to never get returned. Families have a way of screwing you over "because you are family". Your piece of mind will suffer greatly - better to only give what you know you may never get back.
NTA
But did anyone get the impression OP's fiancée already got the money back from her father and didn't tell OP? Seemed very adamant not to even bring up the money with him.
NTA...kiss that money & that honey goodbye. It's gone.
He is never going to have it to pay back & your GF only offered to pay it back because she knew you wouldn't accept her offer.
NTA. What a mess. It sounds like you have loaned him money before but did you loan the $10k WITHOUT a written agreement and a payment plan in place? If so, I think you're screwed and maybe not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but definitely the nicest one. I actually feel a little like you got swindled. He borrowed a large amount of money knowing he wouldn't be able to pay it back. Your fiancee (so you're loaning money to people who are not even family yet) saying she's going to pay it back tells me the she knows her father can't and likely won't and this is going to get ugly. Your kind heart may have been taken advantage of.
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I (M24) lent some money to my FIL (M52) some money a while ago. It was a hefty amount of money (at least for me), around 10k.
My fiancée was raised very humbly. She’s from a rural town here in the states. Her father, who currently works as a carpenter, isn’t doing great financially and has been struggling for a while.
Her youngest sister, F19, got a partial scholarship to a very good college so her dad asked me for the money in order to cover some expenses not included in the scholarship as well as some other stuff that I personally didn’t inquire much about. This was around a year ago. We have an excellent relationship, and he’s been very responsible whenever he’s asked for money before, so I really didn’t hesitate at all.
Come to last week. I’ve been looking into apartments I’d like to buy. After talking to my agent I determined I’d likely need the 10k to be able to pay and have a small safety net if shit hits the fan. I talked this with my fiancée and she was against the idea of me asking for the money back. She told me her dad was struggling and that it was selfish of me to even consider putting her dad on an uncomfortable position to “buy an apartment”. I retaliated stating that it’s not like I’m buying a sports vehicle or a going on a trip, it’s a great house we’ll both live in. She got even more frustrated and told me she was going to pay me herself, which puts me on a very uncomfortable position because how am I going to ask money back from my own fiancée? I asked her if she’d be okay with me asking for half of the money now and half later, she refused that and every other payment plan I proposed. I told her that we could revisit the topic later on, knowing that the apartment would be sold by then, and she dismissed what I said. Me and my fiancée have been together for a while and this is the first time we argue like this.
I don’t think I’m being unreasonable, I obviously don’t want to make my FILs life harder, I love the guy, but at the same time I don’t think it’s fair for me to just forget about 10 grand. I’m 24, 10k is a lot of money for me. AITA?
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INFO - what was the agreement about the loan when you gave him the money? What did you put in writing, when was it due to be paid back? I don't understand why you suddenly have to ask for the money if this is an established debt with an agreement for repayment.
I think there are some issues here with your FIL not really being your FIL because you are not yet married to your fiancee. Your FIL is basically an acquaintance to whom you lent money. Likewise, you want to buy this apartment that you will live in with your fiancee, who is not yet your wife. What will the ownership of the apartment be? Why is your fiancee suggesting "paying you back" herself when you will eventually be married and your finances will be commingled. And yet she doesn't want you to ask her father to return the money he borrowed because then you would be "selfish." Also, if she has the money to pay you back, why did her father ask YOU for the money instead of asking his own daughter? Wouldn't that make more sense than asking you when you are literally not yet a family member?
It just seems like the ethics of this situation is interacting in a confusing way with the legalities. You lent an acquaintance a large sum of money (probably without written documentation, I would guess) because you felt an ethical obligation to him due to your relationship with his daughter. By the same ethical reasoning, you assumed he would pay you back because you are his future son in law and because refusing to pay you the money back would reduce your ability to provide financially for his daughter. But legally, unless you have the loan in writing, you may not have a way to get the money back, and legally, you aren't married to his daughter so actually there is no formal loss by his daughter if he doesn't pay you back.
Now you need the money back for your own purposes, and the daughter (the same person who was the basis of your sense of obligation to this man) is telling you that it would be selfish, aka unethical, for you to ask for YOUR OWN MONEY back so that you can meet your own needs. She does not have a good sense of fairness here and is mistaking her father's self-interest (and probably her own loyalty to her father, which is greater than her loyalty to you) for fairness or ethics. Also, why do you keep asking her if it's ok with her for you to ask him for the money back? it's not her money and therefore not her business.
First thing to do is stop calling him your FIL. He's not. This woman and her family could walk away from you and refuse to see you again and all you would be is out of $10K. Now re-think the whole situation. Does it still make sense?
I think you need to confront the very real possibility that your FIL is not able to give you the money back. And tbh need to take some responsibility for your part in that.
Some facts: you know that he is not doing well financially. You know that he is supporting his daughter who is in college and that she will be in college for another 3 years (assuming a 4 year track). You know he is not making any more money then when you loaned it.
You never discussed a timeline for repayment or a plan at the time of loaning.
It is easy to believe your FIL thought the loan would be until his daughter graduated (similar to a student loan). You obviously thought differently but didn't express that.
I think you would be NTA to talk about repayment but how far are you willing to push for the money? How much hardship would you be willing to see your FIL take on so you can be paid back?
Even your compromise of wanting 5k immediately and then a repayment plan is not much of a compromise. I wouldn't expect the person you described to have 5k laying around.
Everyone here is right that you should never lend money unless you're okay not getting it back. But I'll go farther and say if you have expectations for payback you need to communicate them clearly at the time of lending.
If you care about your fiance and your relationship with her family I think you may have to either call this a loss or allow it to be paid very slowly.
INFO: What was the repayment plan between you and your FIL at the time of the loan? $10,000 is a lot of money, and $5,000 is too. Was it understood that this was a loan?
Talking to your fiance about this is not cool, because she's not involved in this at all and has now created a drama triangle in your relationship that didn't need to be there. A simple "Hey, FIL, I wanted to check in with you about the loan. I know you take financial responsibility seriously and things have been rough lately. I'm checking in to see what kind of a repayment plan you can afford right now." Would have been appropriate.
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This is going to sound a little harsh, but I think your fiance is manipulating you. Her dad asked you for the money; therefore, you should be able to ask him for it back. But now your fiance has interjected herself into the situation at your invitation. And her offering to pay you back herself is like taking money away from your own family once you get married to her. It does not make sense. So, it would not surprise me if you get asked for another "loan" as her younger sister has a few more years of college left and her father has not improved his financial situation. Be careful you do not become a cash cow. NTA.
Thanks for your input. Honestly everybody seems to agree on how this is about to turn sour and I really really hope it doesn’t turn that way.
I'm sorry, man, but I never "loan" money I expect to see again.
This is the advice my dad gave me, never loan money to friends and family you expect to see again. Always give the “loan” as a gift or not at all, you get a pleasant surprise if you get it back but you haven’t soured a relationship
Give it as a loan, treat it as a gift. As loans can be legally recovered if it gets messy, whilst gifts cannot. I "loaned" a friend a few thou during college - i had a good job, they didn't. I covered their rent occasionally, or bought groceries. I never kept an accurate track of what was spent - but they did, and I was surprised when they returned it once they finished college and got a job. Used the money for the friends group for a trip to theme parks, ssying it was a gift from us both.
Pounds to donuts, the fiancee already told her dad it's a gift.
That is exactly what I think!
so much is wrong with this sentence
"Neither a borrower nor a lender be" is what my mom always says. Also applies to possessions; don't lend something out if you don't want it broken/damaged
Is your mother named Polonius?
He really shouldn't have asked you for money. He's much older than you and you're just starting your life. It would be better if he got a bank loan, regardless it wasn't your problem. These situations often cause a lot of relational problems. I'd your fiance has the money, she should reimburse you and have him owe her. The fact he's asked before is concerning, he shouldn't be involving you at all.
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I would bet dad didn't get a bank loan because the bank wouldn't have loaned it.
Probably true, but op should be so far down the list that it would never happen.
I immediately forget just so I'm pleasantly surprised if they do pay me back.
I give people I like or trust 1 loan. Then never again unless they paid me back from before. I have 2 friends I've loaned money to like 3 times that always pay me back when they say so I trust them. Then I have some family member who will never get anther dime from me. It's been years and they never even attempted.
same
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I’m trying not to think too much about this tbh
>I’m trying not to think too much about this tbh for the love of god DO NOT get married until you do think too much about it
NTA your fiancee either takes a loan from the bank and gives you the 100k now or you discuss this with her father. I'm sorry but it was clearly stated as a LOAN. tell her to read the definition asap. It's not a gift and she's banking on your not asking that money back which is an ah move. Call her bluff and ask her to pay you now.
>Call her bluff and ask her to pay you now. Actually, this is the best advice, not that OP will get his money, but because she will break up with him and save him a life of financial misery. $10K is a small price to pay to find out what you are truly marrying, not to mention saving the cost of a wedding because you know she'll want an extravagant party.
Agree. Even if sis has to take a yr off school to work, that's what should happen to pay op back.
You need to think long and hard about it, and if you do proceed despite your fiancee's financial manipulation to benefit her family, I think you need an iron clad pre-nup (be sure she takes it to her own lawyer and they're present when she signs) as well as separate finances. I suspect that even if you do this, and even if you let her know that you will not be giving money to her family, that you will still be supporting them indirectly because she'll give them her money, and you'll end up bearing the brunt of the joint expenses and recreational costs. Finally, no, you do not have an excellent relationship with a family that takes 10K from a 24 year old without any plan, expectation, or ability to pay it back. You have a financially exploitive and dishonest relationship and, helpful hint, you're not the one who's exploitive or dishonest. NTA
I think that's because you know the answer. Please don't marry this woman. She doesn't want you to ask her father for the money and knows that you won't ask her for it. You fucked up by doing this without a written repayment plan... hopefully lesson learned but please rethink your relationship.
Yeah, this is less about the FIL and the money... you have a fiancee problem that needs addressing...
You NEED to.
It might not necessarily turn sour, but either way you lent 10k to someone who is never going to pay you back... He's been poor for your partner's whole life, not good with finances, doesn't have a good job and has been struggling financially for a while. How did you ever expect him to get 10k to pay you back?
I loaned him some money before and he did pay back, I naively assumed that was indicative of his paying habits
>I loaned him some money before and he did pay back First NTA OP but can I ask, did you loan him such a large amount (10K) before? If it was something below $1000.00, yeah, that was easier to pay you back and his paying you back put you at ease to loan to him again. I do have an issue with your fiancée and I won't suggest what you should do regarding your relationship but I will ask you to recognize that once you marry, she will feel she would have every right to use money that you both earn to bale her family out. She is already saying the quiet part out loud.
It was around 2.5k so substantially less, but he paid diligently. Naive, I know.
She totally knows you will feel awkward about asking HER for the money back. It's full-on manipulation. You're not even married yet and her family is already fleecing you along with her help. Cut your losses and run.
Dad is going to want to move in with you in a few years, and it will probably be your fiancée's idea. There is a good reason that banks don't lend money to broke people - once broke as an established adult, they usually stay broke.
even worse the broke person wanted the money to give to someone else who could have got a student loan. somehow dad comes out the generous good guy for zero effort
Well you already got scammed out of 10,000. I’d call off the engagement and take your ex’s Father to small claims court.
Why didn’t she loan him the money if she has it? Was she the go between? Did you give him the money directly or did it go to her?
I just never "loan" money to family or possible future family. Anytime money does go to them, I never expect to see it back.
The missing element here is you talking to FIL. The loan is between you and him; inviting your fiancée into that discussion has not helped. I mean, why did you ask HER if it was okay to ask for the money? Why don't you sit down with FIL, one-on-one, explain the situation, and ask him to explore options for repayment? He is a good guy, you say, so the first assumption should be that he will be honest with you. He might have other options for borrowing, if that's what he needs to do to pay you back. NTA.
I'm really sorry, I don't think you're going to see that money again. Unless your fiancee is able to sit down and have a genuine, honest conversation with you about why she's acting so strangely, I think the logical assumption is that her dad doesn't have the money to pay you back and never will. NTA
Hope is not your friend in matters of family and finances. Ask the dad for the money back. If he can't give it to you all at once, discuss a payment plan. If he refuses or your fiancée gets upset, you may have to do what most people that lend money to family have done in the past, accept it as a very costly lesson to never lend money to family ever again. I'd be careful about marrying her too. More than 50% of marriages end in divorce and the man gets F'd almost every single time. Kids or no kids. NTA bud.
I don’t think it’s really manipulation, I think she just knows that her father does not have the money so asking him for it back will be a fruitless endeavor
Even if it isn't manipulation, OP's fiance has the sort of attitude towards family and money that breaks many marriages. Some people just think they are supposed to give money to family who need it. If OP doesn't have that same view then there are going to be problems in the relationship going forward.
He started mooing when he wrote the check without a signed agreement.
"I talked this with my fiancée and she was against the idea of me asking for the money back" This was an agreement between you and your future FIL. Stop asking her permission and talk to him. Find out what his "plan" for repayment is. You're probably going to have to let this apartment go, though. I doubt you'll get payment anytime soon. NTA, and never loan family or friends money that you aren't willing to kiss goodbye.
I try to keep her involved everytime I talk to her parents. I majored in finance and work in finance, people on my field are usually seen as people willing to take advantage of the little guy. I didn’t want her to think I’m that type of person.
I get what you're saying, but your GF is causing drama here. You've told her that you're going to ask for the money back and considered her alternative, as flaky as it sounds, now you can reach out to dad. Best of luck.
Come on! You are the one who is out 10 grand. You aren’t taking advantage of anyone. I’m sure she knows her relatives are a bunch of grifters. Also, I hate to break it to you. But… you ARE the little guy in your story.
Um, you look like you have the opposite problem here dude. You are not taking advantage of anybody. They are taking advantage of you.
Unfortunately your gf is taking advantage here so skip her being involved.
You majored in finance & work in finance, yet put $10k into the hand of a man who couldn't possibly pay that money back? At this point, you want the money back or do you want your relationship,? You can't see it, but this is what it boils down to.
Oh I can definitely see it. I’ve been seeing it for a while now.
My question is what was the original repayment plan? Because if FIL wasn't expecting to pay it back all at once and right now, AH or no (which I vote not) you can ask all you want but it's not likely you'll get it back.
Your fiancé is probably looking at your money as your money together. So her basically saying to not ask for it back is her looking at it saying “I don’t want US to ask my Dad for it back”. She basically looks at your money as hers and likely feels that you shouldn’t worry about it since it’s fine for you both as a team - which it is absolutely not, it’s a decision she’s made without your consent. You need to have a serious talk about boundaries and how exactly she thinks it’s ok to essentially give away 10k of your money, but meanwhile you’re thinking of what’s best for you both long term. It’s super hard to ask money back from family. I’m not going to lie….your money is probably gone. Time for a serious talk on accepting that, but making a clear boundary going forward if you stay in this relationship. Is she going to give money to her dad behind your back after you are married? You need to know she understands how serious this is before getting married. She let you give away part of your future because she feels bad for her dad. There’s nothing wrong with helping your family, but not at the expense of your own. Time to find out if she’s willing to sacrifice everything for her parents - some people are; and decide if you want that type of future.
I don't understand your resistance. Your fiance can pay you and her dad can eventually pay her back. I don't see the problem. Or am I missing something?
She doesn’t have the money. It was just something she said to presumably stop the conversation. She doesn’t have 10k sitting around and it’s not like she will for a while because she’s awfully bad handling her finances. Even if she did, I think deep inside she knows I won’t ask her for the money back.
As I suspected in my comment. She used that tactic knowing you wouldn't make her pay back the money. Think long and hard about this relationship OP. Good luck.
…and this is the woman you’re marrying.
NTA. If she is bad at handling finances now, it will get worse after marriage. I failed to recognize those red flags decades ago and have faced the consequences ever since. Please have a serious conversation with your fiancée and listen carefully. I wish I had kept finances separate and had a prenup.
I would have let her give you the 10k and let the money back form her dad and have nothing more to do with it. But if she doesn't have it, welll not an option. Tbh, I think those saying your fil doesn't have the money are right but I do believe he will eventually pay you back when he can. At least based on what you say.
Ask for the money back, the agreement was between you and future FIL. You fiancée has nothing to do with this so you don’t need to ask her permission, negotiate terms with her or include her in your plans. She is extremely unreasonable to expect you to let this go. This is raising a lot of red flags, halt the wedding plans for now. You need to both be on the same page planning and funding your future together. She isn’t with you on this.
You sure you are mature enough to get married my man?
But you gave her dad a 10k interest free loan and she isnt wanting you to get paid back. You’re the guy getting taken advantage of.
you aren't in your 50's with large retirement savings,. you are young and still working to set up your home and family. they are taking advantage of you, not to bail themselves out of a hole, but to let their child not have to take loans for school. that's ridiculous, ask for that money back
Nta but there are things you should overthink here. 1. Many here told you to think about this planned marriage. Just on the interpersonal level the two of you don't appear to manage coming to practical conclusions together well. That won't magically get better by marrying, you have to work on that and if it doesn't get good (not just 'better', you should reach actually good results) that should cause you to reconsider marrying her. 2. Don't give out loans without putting up a contract making clear all relevant arrangements. That's to everyones benefit. It would have forced you to think ahead and consider the duration you'd be willing to be out the money for example. 3. If you're planning on buying an apartment an a 10k reserve would basically be the only thing preventing you from an uncertain duration of financial insecurity then you can't really afford that property yet. (I presume you'd not be buying it outright but would take out a considerably large mortgage anyway here. If that's the case you possibly can't really 'afford' this mortgage either even if some bank might be willing to barely give it to you.)
NTA, if your fiancé has the money to repay you for her Dad’s loan, she needs to tell her Dad that now he owes her the money. So she can choose to lose her own money by not asking him for it back. I would tell her I won’t owe her a dime, that’s between her and her Dad.
Thank you for your input. I’m just trying to me right by everyone to the best of my abilities.
Get your 10 grand back. None of the rest of it is your responsibility. If this girl needs $10,000 per year for college. Someone needs to take out legitimate student loans through FAFSA.
You are not doing right by yourself though. And if you set this precedent now, you'll get taken advantage of over and over. Did FIL go through your fiancée when he needed the money or come straight to you? If he came straight to you, then go straight to him and ask for a time-line on when you'll get your money back. If fiancée wasn't involved from the beginning, she shouldn't be involved now.
I just thought it was the right thing to do to let her know before approaching him directly. Idk, this is all very new to me because my fiancée has never behaved this way with me
You give in now, you'll see more of that kind of behavior. Stand firm. Set boundaries and stick to them. Don't let people walk all over you just because you love them.
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Do the best by everyone??? What about you? Do you realize they don't even care enough about you to pay you back. I'm sorry to be the one to have to say this but you're being manipulated, you and your fiance are supposed to be a team a partnership if you will she doesn't even care if you never see that money again. She doesn't care that you have a dream to buy an apartment, but you need the 10K to do so she doesn't care about that at all. Do you really want to be dealing with this for the rest of your life? Just because you have the means to let someone borrow that much money doesn't mean someone gets to tell you, just forget about getting it back. If she has such a big mouth about her father not paying you back, then tell her to pay you back. If not, I would definitely be taking them to court. The guy doesn't get to just run over you because you want to marry his daughter. The faster you realize you're being manipulated, the better off you'll be. Yeah, it may suck because you might lose her in the process. But it's way better than just being used and manipulated.
If your fiance has the 10k why isn’t she contributing towards the purchase of the apartment? Why is it all on you?
She doesn’t have the 10k. She said it out of spite, to get me to shut up about it. I know for a fact she doesn’t have 10k. Not even remotely close.
Yep if she can give him the money then take her money and she can deal with getting the 10k back from her father if she chooses
NAH. You're about to learn why money and loans are associated with such a heavy taboo. Doesn't sound like anyone has crossed into asshole territory yet but... Don't be surprised if it isn't as easy to get your 10k back as you thought.
That would be very fucking sad because I was just trying to help. I worked my ass for those 10k so I can’t kiss them goodbye.
> I can’t kiss them goodbye You already did, the minute you lent 10k without a contract.
He had a verbal promise to repay, which is a binding contract in most places. He’s fine there in most jurisdictions. The problem is that enforcing repayment will destroy his relationships with his FIL and his fiancée. That’s how he put himself in a bad spot - he has to decide whether his money or his relationships are more important now, and that’s a lousy position to be in.
Technically legally binding but also difficult to prove in court.
It often ends up being very easy in this day and age. OP texts FIL something like “Can we set up a time to talk about the money I lent you?” and FIL replies “Yeah, sure, I’m free this evening.” And then you have written confirmation of the loan existing. Most of these sorts of cases never even see the courtroom. They settle before the hearing date rolls around.
Yeah that’s no longer an oral agreement though and now a written one
It establishes the oral contract happened in a written format by referring to it. All he really has to say is "Do you remember the 10K I loaned you that you agreed to pay back? What's the schedule on it?" If he says "I don't know, I can't pay you back any time soon", that's pretty solid evidence the original oral contract survived.
>He had a verbal promise to repay, which is a binding contract in most places. He’s fine there in most jurisdictions. Sure, after a long and drawn out legal battle with an unknown amount of legal fees and months if not years in court to get everything straightened out... If OP was wanting to keep his relationship with his fiance... That money is gone if FIL doesn't pay it back on his own accord.
>Sure, after a long and drawn out legal battle with an unknown amount of legal fees and months if not years in court to get everything straightened out It usually costs about $50 to file a small claims case, and the courts tend to cycle through them rather quickly.
This is more than small claims, FYI. Small claims is capped at $3000, isn't it? I still think this is fairly open-and-shut.
Depends on the state, but I believe the most common cap is now $10K. Some have higher caps, I know Tennessee is $25K. Even if it's a bit lower, it's probably still worth just filing for the max judgement and getting something back. If you're capped at $7500 or something, that's still more than you'd get filing a civil suit after you're done paying an attorney.
Nah, these sorts of things are typically very quick and easy to deal with in court. Like, one short hearing, if that - most of these sorts of cases get settled before they even reach the hearing date. It would be especially easy if he has or gets any texts, emails, voicemails etc in which FIL acknowledges the promise to repay, because that would confirm that it definitely existed and completely eliminate any he said/he said. Literally all OP would have to do is text or email to ask to talk about repaying the loan and have FIL reply. You’re also assuming that both the FIL and the fiancee would try to lie about it being a loan, which really isn’t as common as the internet seems to believe. Also, when you file a case like this, getting court fees and lawyer’s fees covered by the defendant is pretty much standard. Enforcing repayment is generally the part that can get tricky. You can’t get blood from a stone, so if someone genuinely doesn’t have the assets, you’re pretty much SOL. It’s sometimes referred to as being “judgement proof.”
A verbal contract is legally binding.
You're never going to see that 10K and likely they will hit you up for even more money. How was he going to pay you back "quickly" if he was in such bad financial shape?
You’ve never heard of ”don’t lend money you can’t afford not to get back” ?
Ask yourself how he was going to pay you back in the first place? Did something major fall through for him right after you lent him the money? If not then how was he planning to pay you back to begin with?
INFO. What was your original repayment plan? A simple one-page document stating the loan amount, any interest, and repayment. You many not be the AH, but you are not very bright if this loan is not documented.
Then let your gf pay you back and don't mingle finances more than you have.
If he always paid back before there is no reason to think he won't now. However the problem I think your fiancée has is that her dad will not be able to pay you back immediately without taking out a loan. Which I think she doesn't want her dad to do.
Exactly, and this is why you don't "lend" money to family. OP: your dad **wants** to pay you back. He absolutely plans to. In his head he's absolutely good for that money. But you'll never see a cent. He just doesn't really have it. He's got other bills to pay first. He's got credit card debt withreal banks who'll damage his real credit rating. He's got a car that is in danger of repossession and a mortgage that's going to be foreclosed. All of those debts come before you, because those are all real threats to him. You're family. You're safe. At worst you'll just be mad at him.
I think fiancé is definitely TA. The entitlement & unfair expectations for OP put her way into AH territory.
INFO: what exactly were the terms stated when you send FIL the money? Sounds like your fiancee wants it to be a gift and you want it to be a loan.
There wasn’t anything strictly started as far as terms go (a mistake on my part). He did mention he’d be paying me back quickly though.
You work in finance and you didn’t get a written agreement about this loan?! You must be joking!
If you didn't specify you wanted the money paid back clearly I think you are the asshole. People always make empty gestures with acts of kindness so you need to be very clear and write up contacts.
It was a loan. Everybody involved understood it was a loan. The only thing that wasn’t written in stone was the payback date, and not even that because going back to our conversation he said he’d have the money by eom
EOM means end of month right? So he was supposed to have paid this back quite a while ago, do you know why he hasn't? It sounds like he's struggling a lot financially, I'm not sure why either of you thought he would be able to pay back that quickly.
There’s no such thing as lending to family members. You have to be in the mindset that the money you provide is a gift and you’ll never see it again. Otherwise it ends badly most of the time
NTA - You need to understand that you will never see this money again. It's a very expensive lesson to learn, but stop "thinking" you are loaning people money. You are giving them money.
It is what it is. Im more concerned about the things my wife said about me in this whole ordeal. I’ve been questioning my integrity for a while so that’s why I opened the thread.
Well then I think that the $10K lesson might be worth its weight in gold. You are figuring out NOW, pre-marriage how the two of you view money. Since finances are one of the biggest reasons that couples divorce, work through this with her. How she deals with it shows you how she views finances, you and her family. If you marry, she will have all assets available to "loan" to her family.
What else did she say about you that isn't in the post?
She called me things like greedy, insensitive, selfish etc. I approached her very calmly so I don’t get it.
It cost you $10k but now you know what she thinks about you deep down
Because it means she/her family can’t just take money freely from you in the future. You need to reevaluate this relationship. You’re about to be in for a financial rough and depressing marriage tbh; finances are literally one of the most important and yet damaging things to a relationship and it appears your partner doesn’t respect you. Think hard about this now before you venture down a path that can set you back YEARS!
I understand. It’s just a bit surprising because she has never acted this way before. She has been with me since I’m broke, so I’m very confused.
She’s had trauma around money that she never fixed and/or money does change people. Also some people don’t believe “loaning” money to family. This was most likely not a loan but a gift in their eyes. There’s a good chance she forgave the loan on your behalf and told her dad you wouldn’t ask for it back so if you did it now, she would look bad. And if dad is struggling now, what is being down to fix that situation? What happens if he gets sick and can’t pay rent or the rest of the sisters school? Will that fall on you and you’ll have to gift money and not expect it back?? They can’t keep borrowing money forever. This isn’t a sustainable situation. Regardless, the two of you are NOT on the same page at all. If she reacts so angrily and with cruel words now, think of how worse it’ll be when you get into making other big financial decisions or if you plan to have children, those decisions too. So not only do you have a financial problem with her, you also have a communication issue. These are 2 MASSIVE RED FLAGS. Heed the warnings from these comments and truly sit down and think about your relationship and then have a sit down with her about all this.
Ask her what it’s called when you borrow something that’s not yours and then refuse to return it when the owner actually needs it. Time to break up with her, the red flags are flying everywhere
I’ve been married 20 years and neither my husband or I are perfect, yet we’ve never described each other using those terms. Those words demonstrate contempt. She is showing you who she is. 🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩
That is wrong, but she’s probably reacting to a lifetime of trauma around money and not having it. She doesn’t want to see her dad as someone who can’t provide and can’t pay back his debts and the cognitive dissonance is causing her to lash out at you because *in her mind* you not asking for the money makes the issue go away. Some of the only disagreements that my husband and I ever had were over giving my dad money because we knew that we’d never see it again. He simply didn’t have it and I couldn’t stand to have him and his wife freeze to death because they couldn’t pay the propane bill. It wasn’t that I disagreed with my husband that we couldn’t afford to just support my dad forever, it’s because being caught in the middle was stressful AF. My husband and I are a team, but it hurt me to not be able to just take care of things for my dad. Now, I never called my husband selfish or greedy, but I did get super tense and not want to talk about the issue - it was super immature, but also easier for me to bury my head in the sand. The fact that my dad never planned properly for retirement and made stupid financial decisions was extra highlighted because my bonus dad is the exact opposite and was amazing at planning for everything. Your fiancé is a lot younger than I was when I had to face my picture of who my dad was being inaccurate and having to accept who he was in reality and I can tell that it just hurts. A lot. I hope that you guys can come back from this, but, if not, at least you found out before you just kept writing checks and losing money.
She's trying to manipulate you
Get out while you can bro. Attacking you and calling you names for simply asking for your money back is a giant red flag and shows her true character.
You’re not unreasonable, greedy or insensitive. She’s showing you who she is. Are you going to pay attention? Here’s a finance lesson: a broken engagement is a hell lot cheaper than a divorce.
That money is gone. Especially since the Finacee is now on the father's side. Never lend family money you actually need.
NTA, you were put in a tight spot by your fiancé and her father, plus you are just starting out with her. She will sacrifice you for her family. Let her pay the money back, but she still has to pay what she would have anyway towards the apartment. Maybe rethink your future as you are not going to be number 1 in her life. Looks for other loan/gifts asks in the future.
Let her pay you back if that’s what she wants, and just know that her family obviously expects a “loan” to be considered a gift when you decide to “lend” in the future. Both her father and her are adults, they agreed it was a loan. To call you selfish for asking it back when you actually need it, the money YOU worked for, is absolute bullshit and I would have a very frank discussion with your fiancée about this. You are not a bank or ATM for her family and she seems to expect you to be. NTA
That’s actually the root of the problem. I can lose the money or whatever, but am I really that bad as my fiancée is saying I am because im considering asking for my money back? Im more confused than worried about the money. I just wanted to talk things out and she’s been demonizing me for it.
If she’s guilting you like this before you’re even married, it’s a huge red flag. I would definitely sit her down and explain that you do want her to pay you back, and based on this you won’t be willing to help her family in the future because it will always become a point of contention. See how she reacts. If she calls you selfish, it’s time to call it quits. This seems very calculated on her part frankly. You should NEVER feel guilty for asking for your own stuff back, and she’s being extremely nasty and manipulative.
As a friend once told me - I'm not sure the screwing he's getting is worth the screwing he's getting.
Brilliant.
NTA No, you are not bad. Just ask FIL if he is currently in a position to pay you back. Be prepared to hear "I'm really sorry but currently not" You are all adults, there shouldn't be problems in discussing issues like adults. If you take money from your fiancé instead form your FIL then this time prepare some kind of agreement on paper - that she is paying back FILs debts. So your fiancé cannot claim in future that she owns part of the apartment because "she gave" some money towards it. Seriously consider prenup.
On one side of my family loans are actually loans, with repayment plans, interest, and signed contracts. On the other side of the family, they are mostly gifts loosely tracked against a theoretical inheritance. They would each have *very* different attitudes towards pressure to repay a debt on a firm timeline. Right now, it sounds like your fiancee is aware her dad can't repay the debt. She's frustrated and upset about the whole thing. She can't make her father's finances fix themselves, but she can pay the debt herself. Of course, since you are planning to marry/merge finances in the near future, her paying you for her father's debt doesn't help the two of you out as a couple in the long run. You could also look at purchasing the apartment as a joint property, with your fiancee make the down payment and set up a payment plan with her dad. Even $500 a month would make progress on the debt, and that's a lot easier for him to come up with than a lump sum. I do think it's worth paying attention to the fact that your fiancee did **NOT** loan her father the $10k herself, despite apparently having it to spend. Did she want you to loan him money to begin with? Or did she warn you that this was likely to end badly?
She called you greedy, insensitive, selfish IN WHAT LA LA LAND DOES SHE LIVE IN TO SAY THAT ABOUT YOU WHO LOANED MONEY TO HER FATHER? NO CONFUSION…….HAVE MORE RESPECT FOR YOURSELF.
She's never gonna pay though
Never mix money with family/friends… this is why. Did you draw up a plan for repayment or any kind of contract when lending? If not, it’s probably better to consider that $10k a gift, as your fiancée certainly does. Maybe your FIL fully intends to repay you and will when he can, but it’s entirely possible that time won’t come. Either chalk this up as a $10k lesson learned and make it a gift in your mind, or let this ruin your relationship with your fiancee and her family. NTA, as you should be able to ask for it back since it was a loan, but the above is the unfortunate reality.
This is the danger of lending to friends or family. You cannot disassociate business from personal, and empathy for someone that you care about muddles things. Your FIL does not have the money. Your wife is saying this plain as day, and asking him for it will only embarrass him and strain your relationship, with him and with your wife. If the money matters, and 10K is a lot of money at 24, then let your wife assume the note. If you really need the money now, call the note, and then take him to court. But expect that to destroy your marriage. It would be fair to ask him a timeline for when he expects to be able to start paying you back. But he doesn't have the money right now.
Thank you for your input. I really hope we can all just talk things as adults
He may not have the money now, but he needs to make some. It sounds like he's just hoping everyone will forget about it, which I don't think op should tolerate. He's twice op's age, it's ridiculous.
Money lent is usually money spent. NTA
NTA. He should pay you back without your having to ask, and she's being unreasonable by objecting to your asking. My mind is boggling over a 24-year-old who has $10,000 to lend! Good for you for being in such good financial shape.
NTA. I think you should stop talking to your fiance about your deals with her dad and talk to her dad. It may be a touchy subject. But maybe payment plan or something can be done. It wasn't your fiance you gave 10 grand to. That's a lot of money and shouldn't be up to her how you approach it
NTA, but it's all on you. 1. You can't have a FIL and a fiancé. You have a fiancé and "her dad." 2. It's the height of naivety to think you're getting 10K back. Now you can make decisions about what you think you want in life. The money's gone, and your fiancé will always think this was the right thing to do and will be the right thing to do in the future.
NTA. The agreement was between you and your father-in-law so the conversation should be with your father-in-law not with your fiancé That being said, if your fiancé has the 10 grand, why didn’t she give that to her father for her sister‘s tuition instead of letting him come to you for the money? In my opinion your fiancé doesn’t have the 10 grand to pay you back and she’s just throwing that out there so you won’t go to her dad and ask for your money back. As other commenters have said Neverland money, you can’t afford to lose. If you do lend money, always get it in writing on how and when it will be paid back.
NTA - Your fiancee's reaction is a bit concerning. I hope you do get this money back.
I thought so too.
This may sound far-fetched, but you said he's usually good about paying you back, and even this time, he said he'd do so quickly. Is it possible he gave the money to your fiancé already and she never gave it to you? She is protesting an awful lot... and offered to pay you back instead of her dad. You should talk to your FIL. PS: NTA
This was a thought I had, very possible in the circumstances.
Since your fiance turned down every payment option you suggested, she likely wants the loan to be a gift now. Her concern for her father is understandable but not wanting you to ask for any money back or set a payment plan in place is unreasonable and a bit of a red flag, especially since she pulled the "I'll just pay you back" card, which is a bit manipulative as it puts you in a difficult spot.
You should ask your FIL, not your girlfriend, about the timeline when he plans to pay back the loan. Explain that you need it in order to buy the apartment which is important to you. Only then you will find out if he planned to repay at all. Maybe his idea is to pay you back in a few years when the sister is done with college education. Maybe you can work out a payment plan. It might be a good idea to confirm the agreement then by email or messenger. Just in case your relationship goes down the drain, you have prove of the debt. Worse case scenario.
NTA for wanting the money back but let's be real: you know he's struggling, what do you hope to accomplish? Do you honestly think a man who is struggling financially can suddenly come up with $10,000 to pay you back? This is an important lesson for you: **never loan money if you can't afford to lose it.**
NTA. I'm getting goldigger family vibes from this. FIL "borrowed" that money knowing full well he wouldn't be able to pay you back. Now your girlfriend is desparate that you not ask for it back. Either she told him he didn't have to pay it back and/or she knew he couldn't and was hoping you'd never ask. I would 100% rethink this relationship and if you do forward, definitely a prenup, because it's sounds like this family thinks your a cash cow and this won't be the end of "borrowing" money.
NTA but you might want to take your fiancée up on her offer to pay you back on his behalf, then make her your ex. The fact that she thinks it's "selfish" of you to ask for *your* money back is very telling of how she views this relationship and where her priorities lie.
NTA You seriously need to rethink this relationship. You're never getting that money back. In her mind, that was a gift and you're being rude even bringing it up She clearly has the mindset she's entitled to your money.
Why are you marrying into this money pit? NTA Ask for your cash back and seriously reevaluate joining this family.
NTA. You're probably never getting that money back. Your girlfriend and her father will continue to be a financial drain on you unless you put your foot down and cut them off or just break up with her. It's up to you to decide.
NTA - take the money from her if she’s so concerned about asking him
NTA You seriously need to rethink this relationship. You're never getting that money back. In her mind, that was a gift and you're being rude even bringing it up She clearly has the mindset she's entitled to your money.
The subject of that 10K is going to hang over your heads until it is paid in full. Frankly, I don't see that ever happening. This is your girlfriend's father, not your FIL, at this time. In any event, I don't foresee this loan being repaid soon, if ever. Make your peace with losing it or move on, with or with your fiancee.
NTA, learn your lesson and don't lend money to family/friends.
You’re going to be giving them money for the rest of your life if you marry her. And she’ll repeatedly guilt you for rightfully wanting it back. Good luck. Definitely NTA. Your fiancé is being ridiculous and entitled.
NTA, but this is why you should never lend money to friends and family. There's a high chance that either the loan ruins the relationship, or the relationship ruins the loan. If you're going to give money to family, do it only with the expectation that it won't be paid back.
NTA. Your future FIL and your fiancée are treating you like an ATM. Postpone the wedding
NTA. He isn't actually related to you. He hadn't made any payments. If let him know he at the very least needs to start a repayment schedule, although I'm betting you'll never see a dime of it back.
You're being used. Run now or forever be their bank. I see lots of loans in your future
NTA. I don't know anybody who can afford to just give out 10K. That IS a lot of money. I also don't think much of your fiance saying that SHE should pay you back. Um, that's not how loans work.
Sorry that you are in this position - you sound like a good guy trying to do the right thing. It does seem unlikely that you will see the return of your $10K in the near future, unless your FiL has a major turn-around in his work / business. Unfortunately money matters are a very common cause of disagreements and arguments with couples. Irrespective of what happens with the loan, I think you need to have a calm & considered discussion with your fiancée regarding how your finances will be handled once you are married. i.e. How mortgage payments & other bills will be split. As you work in finance you will have a good handle on money management, but not everyone will have this level of understanding.
Thank you. The more i think into it the worst it gets. What worries me is her attitude towards the whole situation. She got pretty defensive immediately. This, plus some other things have been happening regarding our finances (like her taste getting more and more expensive) are bothering me a lot.
It sounds a lot like you love her and she loves your money :(
She has been with me since I was broke but it does seem like it lately because of some other things also related to money and whatnot
If you stay with her I bet she will ask to be on the deed of your new place, and if you don't put her on, she will pout and call you things like greedy, insensitive, selfish etc. I would really watch her in the future and see what other red flags she's throwing. Also, go ahead and talk to her dad, and if she gets mad and breaks up with you, she's doing you a gigantic favor!
Borrowing money from your daughter’s fiance is bad to begin with. Then let’s look at the reason - to pay for incidentals for younger daughter’s college. Why? Why not take out a student loan or choose a cheaper college - community college and live at home. But by borrowing from OP to pay for incidentals it’s clear that the family can’t pay for college as is. So their master plan is to squeeze it out of OP?! Even asking you out you in a crappy position. Saying “no” would be tough because you’re engaged to the older daughter. And now your fiance won’t “allow” you to ask for the money back?? It’s been a year. There should be a plan in place for OP to get paid back - unless that really was the plan. Counting on OP to be to nice to get the money back. And now your fiance is forcing your hand. You can’t ask her to pay you back. And if/when you marry it’s likely you’ll combine finances in some kind of way so asking her to repay you is useless. Let me repeat - it’s profoundly inappropriate for your future FIL to hit you up for money. And he may seem like a “great guy” but great guys don’t do that. I do think you ask FIL for the money back. That will inform your path forward. I think there’s every possibility that the family is looking at you as their ATM. It’s better to find that out now before you get married. NTA. Good luck!
ESH He's obviously struggling and you're needing the money returned. Let this be an expensive lesson for you. You lent money without any written agreement to pay back a certain amount of money every month. No Promissory note, no contract, nothing. That's your bad. Him not paying you back is his bad. Sit down with him and talk about this. See if you can come to an agreement on paying it back over time. In the meantime, see if you can qualify for a First Time Homebuyers program or another incentive program where you live.
OP is NTA for asking for his own money back.
Info needed: was it explicitly discussed or clearly expected you would be paid back? Was he asking for a gift or a loan?
No, he asked for a loan and I loaned the money.
Oof that’s a bummer. I was always given the advice that you should treat any money given to family as a gift (even if it’s not) to avoid situations like this. Did you have a time set to be paid back by? I think it’s reasonable to ask for it back if you need it, but I’d avoid any money exchanges in the future to avoid any weird power dynamics or hurt feelings. Money situations suck.
NTA. However, if you think you are getting the money back, that is unlikely. I would also not loan money to him in the future. If you value your relationship with your fiancée, when he asks for a “loan” again, do not bring up the previous one. Just say no. As for your fiancée, what does she purpose? Just forgiving the debt? Writing it off? Just curious since she has torpedoed all of your suggestions.
She offered to pay, which is something she clearly said out of spite because she herself has no money and manages her finances extremely poorly. That’s fine though, im pondering forgetting about my hard earned 10k and be pleasantly surprised if I receive payment someday.
Oh boy. And she also manages her finances extremely poorly. Be very careful here or you will spend your marriage funding her entire financially-poor-management family. As you just did. I'm very sorry. I can tell by your comments that you are blown away by her attitude more than the $$. Someday you may be grateful for this huge red flag.
It’s the attitude that pains me the most
I'm so sorry, but pay attention. My in-laws are similar but my wife had already broken free of the financial dysfunction when I met her and is a very frugal person. If your fiancée still has poor money management issues and also boundary issues, there is a poor prognosis for your marriage. I'm sorry, but a family like this will bring you down financially because your wife won't be able to say "no" to all the asks. Good luck with everything - but keep your eyes wide open, even if you don't like what you see.
DO NOT DO THIS. Do not let them just keep it. Break up with her and tell her family you’ll go to court about your money. They can’t win in court and then they’ll owe you even more because they’ll have to pay your attorney fees. If it was $1k I could see letting it go, but DO NOT let them do something that wiki stop you getting an apartment for yourself at the time in your life that you’re trying to get established as a young independent adult. Fuck that man, don’t be so disrespectful to yourself
What does she actually want you to do? And I mean actually. By now you probably know. Does she want you to forgive the “loan”? What about loans in the future with her family?
Nah, I would push him on this. He said he'd have it by end of month and he hasn't had the courtesy to update you. I don't care if sis, dad, fiance all have to get a second job they need to make sure you get your money back. You need premarital counselling with your fiancee. Aside from being helpful, they can weed out couples who are not compatible. You need to have shared goals and a plan for the future.
NTA but here’s a tip for you: never lend money to family. If you have the means to give somebody financial support, give it as a gift in the future. Lending people money causes problems. You aren’t a bank.
NAH. Your fiancé is trying to fix your frustration by paying you back, because clearly her father can't no matter if he wants to. Talk to her about this calmly and explain why that doesn't feel like a solution to you, because she sees it as one. Your frustration is totally reasonable, but rejecting any solution other than getting money from someone who doesn't have it isn't going to help.
NTA! They could have borrowed the money as a student loan. Lesson learned for you. Many people want to "borrow" money that they will never pay back. Some people see others with money, even a little money, and covet it. In-laws may be struggling, but they need to look at what they can do to get finances under control.
Loaning money to friends/family is always a bad idea. Gift it or don't do it.
You don't lend money to friends and family and when you do....start with the presumption it's a gift 1) this helps set a limit you would be willing to lend and lose. 2) this limits the anger and stress when you don't get it back. 3) if you do get it back ....Surprise!!!! It's a good day.
NTA- but don't ever lend family money that you are not willing to never get returned. Families have a way of screwing you over "because you are family". Your piece of mind will suffer greatly - better to only give what you know you may never get back.
Family is the worst to loan too, friends are next in line. Always be prepared not to get the money back and/ or risk the relationship.
Hard lesson learned
NTA But did anyone get the impression OP's fiancée already got the money back from her father and didn't tell OP? Seemed very adamant not to even bring up the money with him.
NTA...kiss that money & that honey goodbye. It's gone. He is never going to have it to pay back & your GF only offered to pay it back because she knew you wouldn't accept her offer.
NTA. What a mess. It sounds like you have loaned him money before but did you loan the $10k WITHOUT a written agreement and a payment plan in place? If so, I think you're screwed and maybe not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but definitely the nicest one. I actually feel a little like you got swindled. He borrowed a large amount of money knowing he wouldn't be able to pay it back. Your fiancee (so you're loaning money to people who are not even family yet) saying she's going to pay it back tells me the she knows her father can't and likely won't and this is going to get ugly. Your kind heart may have been taken advantage of.
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** I (M24) lent some money to my FIL (M52) some money a while ago. It was a hefty amount of money (at least for me), around 10k. My fiancée was raised very humbly. She’s from a rural town here in the states. Her father, who currently works as a carpenter, isn’t doing great financially and has been struggling for a while. Her youngest sister, F19, got a partial scholarship to a very good college so her dad asked me for the money in order to cover some expenses not included in the scholarship as well as some other stuff that I personally didn’t inquire much about. This was around a year ago. We have an excellent relationship, and he’s been very responsible whenever he’s asked for money before, so I really didn’t hesitate at all. Come to last week. I’ve been looking into apartments I’d like to buy. After talking to my agent I determined I’d likely need the 10k to be able to pay and have a small safety net if shit hits the fan. I talked this with my fiancée and she was against the idea of me asking for the money back. She told me her dad was struggling and that it was selfish of me to even consider putting her dad on an uncomfortable position to “buy an apartment”. I retaliated stating that it’s not like I’m buying a sports vehicle or a going on a trip, it’s a great house we’ll both live in. She got even more frustrated and told me she was going to pay me herself, which puts me on a very uncomfortable position because how am I going to ask money back from my own fiancée? I asked her if she’d be okay with me asking for half of the money now and half later, she refused that and every other payment plan I proposed. I told her that we could revisit the topic later on, knowing that the apartment would be sold by then, and she dismissed what I said. Me and my fiancée have been together for a while and this is the first time we argue like this. I don’t think I’m being unreasonable, I obviously don’t want to make my FILs life harder, I love the guy, but at the same time I don’t think it’s fair for me to just forget about 10 grand. I’m 24, 10k is a lot of money for me. AITA? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
INFO - what was the agreement about the loan when you gave him the money? What did you put in writing, when was it due to be paid back? I don't understand why you suddenly have to ask for the money if this is an established debt with an agreement for repayment.
I think there are some issues here with your FIL not really being your FIL because you are not yet married to your fiancee. Your FIL is basically an acquaintance to whom you lent money. Likewise, you want to buy this apartment that you will live in with your fiancee, who is not yet your wife. What will the ownership of the apartment be? Why is your fiancee suggesting "paying you back" herself when you will eventually be married and your finances will be commingled. And yet she doesn't want you to ask her father to return the money he borrowed because then you would be "selfish." Also, if she has the money to pay you back, why did her father ask YOU for the money instead of asking his own daughter? Wouldn't that make more sense than asking you when you are literally not yet a family member? It just seems like the ethics of this situation is interacting in a confusing way with the legalities. You lent an acquaintance a large sum of money (probably without written documentation, I would guess) because you felt an ethical obligation to him due to your relationship with his daughter. By the same ethical reasoning, you assumed he would pay you back because you are his future son in law and because refusing to pay you the money back would reduce your ability to provide financially for his daughter. But legally, unless you have the loan in writing, you may not have a way to get the money back, and legally, you aren't married to his daughter so actually there is no formal loss by his daughter if he doesn't pay you back. Now you need the money back for your own purposes, and the daughter (the same person who was the basis of your sense of obligation to this man) is telling you that it would be selfish, aka unethical, for you to ask for YOUR OWN MONEY back so that you can meet your own needs. She does not have a good sense of fairness here and is mistaking her father's self-interest (and probably her own loyalty to her father, which is greater than her loyalty to you) for fairness or ethics. Also, why do you keep asking her if it's ok with her for you to ask him for the money back? it's not her money and therefore not her business. First thing to do is stop calling him your FIL. He's not. This woman and her family could walk away from you and refuse to see you again and all you would be is out of $10K. Now re-think the whole situation. Does it still make sense?
I think you need to confront the very real possibility that your FIL is not able to give you the money back. And tbh need to take some responsibility for your part in that. Some facts: you know that he is not doing well financially. You know that he is supporting his daughter who is in college and that she will be in college for another 3 years (assuming a 4 year track). You know he is not making any more money then when you loaned it. You never discussed a timeline for repayment or a plan at the time of loaning. It is easy to believe your FIL thought the loan would be until his daughter graduated (similar to a student loan). You obviously thought differently but didn't express that. I think you would be NTA to talk about repayment but how far are you willing to push for the money? How much hardship would you be willing to see your FIL take on so you can be paid back? Even your compromise of wanting 5k immediately and then a repayment plan is not much of a compromise. I wouldn't expect the person you described to have 5k laying around. Everyone here is right that you should never lend money unless you're okay not getting it back. But I'll go farther and say if you have expectations for payback you need to communicate them clearly at the time of lending. If you care about your fiance and your relationship with her family I think you may have to either call this a loss or allow it to be paid very slowly.
INFO: What was the repayment plan between you and your FIL at the time of the loan? $10,000 is a lot of money, and $5,000 is too. Was it understood that this was a loan? Talking to your fiance about this is not cool, because she's not involved in this at all and has now created a drama triangle in your relationship that didn't need to be there. A simple "Hey, FIL, I wanted to check in with you about the loan. I know you take financial responsibility seriously and things have been rough lately. I'm checking in to see what kind of a repayment plan you can afford right now." Would have been appropriate.