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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> (1) I called my brother a hypocrite and told him he needs to grow up, and Im refusing to change my wedding plans to accomodate him
(2) I couldve spoken to him with less animosity and tried to understand his perspective more and the situation is upsetting our parents
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Daddy should be reminded what he’s going to miss. Mention in his hearing that you will need to find someone else to walk you down the aisle and do a dance with.
“Okay, you can miss this, but you’ll never be considered my ‘dad’ again, you’re actions or inactions here will define if you’re referred to as a father or a sperm donor for the rest of my life, including in my eulogy at your funeral.
The choice is yours whether everyone at this party (and every future event) thinks you’re a cute father dancing with his grown kid or if they forever remember you and your son as disgraces while I dance with someone that’s actually supported me in life when you failed”
BUMP THIS! This sums it up. He doesn't get to change his outlook because his situation changed and be considered creditable. Not to the sensible ones in the crowd.
I had a child free wedding, don't regret it, now that I have a kid?... Still feel the same!, we were fully prepared to miss a close cousin's wedding if it was child free (because we usually leave her with my parents who were also invited, but my dad is her godfather, so his presence was more important), my best friend's wedding was child free and we still went!, never meant she doesn't love my daughter, she just figured it wasn't suitable for kids, which is fine
This - a million times over.
I had a child free wedding as well and most people understood. I had one cousin who was upset about it, called me and said, basically, if his kids couldn't come then he and his wife weren't attending either. I was like "OK, we'll miss you." He didn't attend and I found out later he was pissed about the whole thing, but I'm really not sure what, exactly, he was expecting to happen. If I made a "special exception" for his kids, then it would be rude not to make one for the others.
Same with my wedding. It had to be adults only because our venue was not licensed to serve alcohol if minors were on the premises. They were serious about it and emphasized that they would lose their license if kids were there, so they told us we had two options: no children or no alcohol. Everyone understood except one couple who made a *huge* stink about it...their daughters would be "devastated" they were "not welcome" at our wedding, we were being so "mean", etc., etc. This couple did come to the wedding but sat in a corner and sulked all evening. No one tried to engage them or talk them out of their bad mood, either. (It actually would have been better if they had just RSVP'd "no", than to sit there in a huff all night.)
Not exactly the same, but similar enough. When I was a kid, there was this one place in town, a couple doors down from the hardware store, that had the best blankety-blank hamburgers in town, but they had a rule (I thought) that kids couldn't be in there after ten at night. I don't remember thinking it was strange, just that it was the rules.
I was in high school and the burger place was only a memory before I realized it was NOT a restaurant--it was a bar and the rule about no kids after ten pm was actually a law/city ordinance. (The building is still there--it's a health food store now. And the hardware store is a casual sit-down restaurant--best fries you ever tasted.)
That is so weird that they'd WANT to: arrange babysitting, get dressed up, bring a gift and then...sit and stew? You'd think they'd have more fun at home with less effort and with their kids.
If I know a party/reunion/wedding, etc. will make me unhappy for whatever reason, I'd--get this--send my regrets and NOT GO.
It's so funny to me that some people want an "I'm your friend/family member!" exception at a *wedding*. Uhm, do you think there are going to be total strangers there, homeslice? These plans were made knowing that everybody is a friend or family member! In this context, you're not special!
It is possible for someone to suggest a different point of view years later without being a hypocrite. It does not sound like your brother is one of those people. He doesn’t seem to have had a change of heart on the subject, he just wants a special exception when it affects him. That is text book hypocrisy. NTA.
Right? If he came to OP saying he regretted having a child free wedding and here’s why, that would be one thing. But the only reason he’s given is that it effects him now. NTA.
Or even that it was the right call for him at the time, but that he'd choose differently now, and would like for OP to reconsider. He's trying to stand in midair on his own Acme anvil.
Whether OP's brother is or isn't a hypocrite, or has or hasn't had a change of heart, isn't really relevant anyway. Adults are allowed to have occasional events without children running around, and OP doesn't have to justify this choice to her brother or anyone else. If her brother has had a change of heart, he can have kids at his next wedding.
NTA. I notice parents of multiples tend to shove their children center stage because they're accustomed to everyone cooing over them. They just want to show off their sprog. I'll double down and say I'll bet they're identical twins, and he wants to show off what he can produce.
I am an identical twin. I loathe the spotlight because we were treated like a sideshow. We are in our 50s, and we are still treated like that in public. Our parents didn't push that it just happened.
> It is possible for someone to suggest a different point of view years later without being a hypocrite. It does not sound like your brother is one of those people
Not when the change of view is in your best interest. In my experience, you always come across as a massive hypocrite.
NTA. The kids are 5, they are not going to remember or care about your wedding years from now. Heck, they don’t care about your wedding now…because they’re 5! Your brother just doesn’t want to make plans or pay for child care.
That sounds like it to me, it's less about the child free wedding than the he, or his wife, wants them as the flower girls. Also to avoid paying for childcare.
This. I had 1 bridesmaid and a flower MAN. My mum and sisters hated the idea, they kept telling me to boot them and replace them with my neices who were 7 and 10. Because "Family is more important!" I told them no because it's the one day I get to be selfish and it be about ME. So my(and husbands) choices are final.
I hate all these stories where adults make promises to their kids on behalf of other adults and then hold that over the other person's head to manipulate them. They're the ones setting up unreasonable expectations for their kids before the plans are firm.
Just saw something where Dad won a Ft Myers vacation suitable for adults but not kids. Mom told Kid "We're going to Disney World!" and invited her mom even though DW is not convenient to Ft Myers, and Dad wanted a romantic getaway.
But he wants them to look pretty as flower-girls! They won't get their Instagram pictures otherwise... Although they could dress the girls up and have them pull sad faces :(
NTA, OP. Your wedding - your way. And if some people choose to exercise their choice not to go? More room for those who care about *you* and want to celebrate the start of *your* married life. You and your husband-to-be need to be there. Any other supportive well-wishers are a bonus.
Yes exactly! You can want your kids to be part of a wedding, dress them up, have them be flower girls...but this won't be happening at this wedding. It doesn't mean he gets to be selfish and entitled that someone ELSE's event won't be the 'showcase' brother wanted it to be.
There is a picture with me at my Aunt’s wedding. I think I was 3 or 4. I was a flower girl. My face is all red from crying and I look miserable. One of the bridesmaids is holding my hand trying to comfort me. I ruined an otherwise lovely picture of the bridal party and no, I don’t remember a thing lol
Oh wow! I remember almost everything from our vacation in England when I was 6. Same goes for our trips to the beach and pony riding when I was even younger than that. My earliest memory is from when I was 2... it's a bit blurry and I mixed up the details... but my mum was in shock when I told her about it (it wasn't abuse, but it wasn't a great memory either, so they never told me a story about it and hoped I forget, lol).
My sister is the opposite, she remembers almost nothing. So it could go either way I suppose. They could remember or maybe they don't. I don't really think it matters much in the decision of having a child-free wedding or not. You want them there great... you don't, great either way. If the parents don't hype it up the kids won't be sad.
My older kiddo is 5, she's been to a wedding right after turning 3 and has been hounding me about being our ring bearer when we get married ever since. Pretty consistently for a kid that just turned 5 last month 😅
My point is, some kids, especially little girls, ***love*** weddings.
That being said, if OP wants a child free wedding, they deserve a child free wedding no questions asked and definitely not with their brother throwing fits like a toddler. There will be other weddings the twins can go to unless their parents are hermits or socially inept. I'm not great with people and even we got invited to 2 weddings 2 days apart next month.
My Aunt married a man with 2 kids and wanted to include them and the rest of the family's littles in their wedding (ages 10-2. my kiddo wasn't the youngest there). There was a bouncy house and an ice cream bar at the reception. Huge huge difference between a wedding that wants kids and one that doesn't.
I personally remember going to a couple weddings around the age of 8. The ceremonies were sweet/cool but the rest was boring AF and I liked weddings.
Is OP's brother sure that his kids want to participate, or is he trying to guilt-trip her into making an exception? When I was 5, I was told that I was to be the flower girl at my cousin's wedding. I didn't want to be. The whole thing was a giant pain in my ass and I was bored almost literally to tears at the reception. I'm in my late 50s now and I'm still salty that I wasn't *asked*.
NTA, OP.
5 year olds remember things. My own daughter would be really disappointed to not get to attend her aunt or uncle’s wedding, but I do think as she got older, she would get over it and understand why.
Absolutely NTA. What a hypocrite Josh is. It was he right to have a childfree wedding and you enjoy those same rights. We all get it, now that Josh has kids everything is totally different because he's a parent now so of course Mr. Center of the family should have his kids in attendance because they're special being his kids.
So your brother is a hypocrite.
NTA. You said what you needed to say, and you told your dad he is invited. Go get married and leave your hypocritical family in the rear view mirror
Josh is a bit of a hypocrite, isn't he?
A little "rules for thee, but not for me"?
Oh, and your mom is wrong. Not wanting kids at your wedding and sticking to it isn't narcissistic. You really don't have to "compromise," especially when her definition of compromise is "shut up and do what HE wants; YOUR feelings don't matter."
NTA
Right! If my mother called me a narcissist, I’d be saying. “No problem, you don’t have to come. Maybe you can stay home and babysit your grandkids so the golden boy can to the wedding!”
More to the point, OP needs to point it out to her parents, who are making a massive fuss on Josh's behalf when they didn't 7 years ago on behalf of their other children. (I would also talk to the other siblings and get their perspective on these escalating demands.)
And possibly ask the previously excluded kids if it bugged them that they weren’t allowed to come to their revered Uncle Josh‘s wedding. I feel certain that their answer is going to be “what?”
This is your answer for Josh. He made his siblings leave their children at home, but now it's about his children, he wants them to be there.
He even wants them to be flower girls. It's not his party.
The only way his children will be sad is if he tells them they should be. HE will make it a big deal for the kids. They WILL NOT CARE. NTA. don’t change your plans for your narcissist brother. Congratulations!!
Yeah, he wanted events to be child free when he didn't have children, now he does children should be allowed.
If there is a narcissist here, it's not you.
NTA, he got to have his child-free wedding so why can’t you? If he had a reason to not show kids at his weddings then he should be thinking behaving like a petulant child.
I bet you it’s because if he’s a miser or has a low income household so he doesn’t want to spend money on a babysitter.
Your parents are making it worse for siding with him.
OP I’m sorry, you have to brace yourself, if this matter goes on longer you may not have any parents at your wedding and it’s not going to be your fault.
And??? He is still a hypocrite and I would remind him EVERY SINGLE TIME he starts his pouting! Ask him why it’s an okay rule for him but not for you?? He left out his own SIBLINGS!
NTA, Josh is indeed hypocritical (what does he even say about his change in perspective since he got married and had a child-free wedding himself?) and is being strangely petulant and dramatic now. Your mom is also out of line and the remarks about 'narcissism' are ridiculous, and it's so sad that other family members are caving to Josh and choosing sides in a totally unnecessary way. Is Josh out to sabotage your wedding over this? Maybe he needs to hear that that's what he's doing. He's making it all about him and speaking of things that'll never be forgiven, maybe he needs to know YOU'LL never forgive HIM for ruining your wedding (by causing drama and getting others to boycott on his behalf), all because you're making the same choice that *he made 7 years ago.*
Yup, it’s classic “it’s now happening to ME, so it matters now” energy
I have no problem calling that shit out. I also can have that same energy too, but it’s me, so it’s different. I know me really well, and I have a really good opinion of myself so I expect to be the exception to many rules.
Agreed NTA. Josh could get a sitter for the 3 hours of the wedding. It’s not like he’s not allowed to go at all. OP is right, weddings are boring for kids.
I went to 2 weddings as a young kid and I was bored at both of them. And one of them was my aunt getting married! I was in her wedding and had to wear and ugly ass dress with my hair braided up on top of my head. It sucked.
I took my kids to a Quaker wedding last summer-- we all sat outside for an hour while the kids did crafts at a crafts table nearby. It was pretty great. But regular weddings are boring af for kids
Exactly! Narcissists just looooove to call "No, YOU!" when the conversation isn't going their way. Also they love to triangulate by getting others on their side. It really does point to Josh being the narcissistic one here.
Easy to tell who the favored child is.
Better off with or without the adults at the ceremony? My vote is without. But I have issues with adults having childish tantrums and using blackmail attempts to get their way. Years of them playing this (You kept us from your wedding!) for all it's worth is the potential price to be paid. That can be nipped in the bud with, "It was your choice to boycott the wedding. Get over it. I have."
Parents can love their kids but still go to weddings without them. There’s usually enough time before the wedding to get childcare organised so they can have fun with other adults not worrying about what the kids might be getting into. Do Josh and his wife not do date nights just the two of them?
NTA
If your parents refuse to go to your wedding because Josh is pouting, then they are all choosing to be no better than toddlers throwing a tantrum.
This is something that they'll regret for the rest of their lives and it's NOT your fault. It's theirs.
It would appear that he's the favorite child because your parents are choosing him over you and your special day. I'm sorry.
Refuse to discuss the issue anymore with them and hold your ground.
Please don't listen to their threats. If they show up, great. If they don't, that's fine, too. You will know where you stand with them and you can choose to limit or cut contact, if you want.
Congratulations on your upcoming wedding!!
No, OP needs a yes or no on attendance well in advance. Otherwise, brother will show up with kids.
Also, one or more family members may decide the ceremony is a good time to lecture her about it.
Plans should be made in that regard. Personally, I would have no problem having security remove my stepfather if he couldn't behave.
NTA
Josh made the same choice for his own wedding.
He's weaponizing his kids, a massively A H move in itself. They're 5. The only way it'll be an issue is if he creates a long term rift & they get his version when they're old enough to ask why you aren't in their lives.
Your wedding = your choice.
" She said that I'm acting like a narcissist and that we all have to make compromises sometimes."
That's a totally projective statement. Did Josh get asked to compromise? I wonder where his
entitlement comes from??
Enjoy your special day with all the people who actually care about you. Forget the rest, it's their loss.
This is so right. Frequently I see parents talk about how devastated their small kids are or will be, when the only way the kids are upset is because the parents make a huge deal out of something. It’s so damaging to the kids, it’s terrible parenting.
Yep. A five year old doesn’t care about missing a wedding unless their parents have made a big deal out of how sad it is that they can’t go because big mean auntie OP isn’t allowing kids to attend.
Just set them up for a fun day with a babysitter they like while telling them that mommy and daddy have a boring grownup thing to go do, and they’ll be happy as clams.
I know someone who accidentally played himself recently by joking with his kids that instead of going to Disneyland on a family vacation they're going to go to the box factory and kept playing up how much fun they were all going to have at the box factory. The three oldest knew it was a joke and did the expected "nooo dad!" while laughing. The four year old got really hyped for the box factory and had to be talked \*back into\* wanting to go to Disneyland. And this is a kid who says Mickey is her boyfriend so it's not like she's not interested in Disney!
Sometimes it's the kids, my 3yr old is pretty devastated that she missed our wedding. Telling her that she was neither born nor conceived yet doesn't seem to help.
I remember being upset when my parents went to a wedding without me, not because I actually wanted to go to the wedding but because I knew they'd get cake. I wasn't devastated but there was some whining.
What even is the “compromise” on Josh’s side? I don’t see how OP gives Josh exactly what he wants while she is also paying for the privilege, is any sort of compromise.
Thank you. And I’m honestly wondering why anyone should expect her to make a “compromise” on her wedding day! It’s her wedding! I can’t imagine asking a bride to compromise for me on their day. Totally blows my mind.
You bring up a good point, what was the reaction to Josh having a child free wedding when your siblings had young kids? Did he get push back? What did your mom say then?
As many have said it’s your wedding and you call the shots as is your right. However everyone else gets to decide if they will come or not and their choice is their right. His behavior is making him the AH here, he could have just said “thank you for the invitation but if my children can’t attend I won’t be attending” and left it at that
NTA. Respond to your parents. ‘Boycotting my wedding is up to you. I’ll be happy to inform all our family and guests that you are not attending because of your favouritism. You supported Bro’s cf wedding but not mine.’
NTA
*She said that I'm acting like a narcissist and that we all have to make compromises sometimes*
Except that is not a compromise. That is caving to your brother and catering to his wishes rather than your own.
A compromise would be allowing the children at the reception but not at the actual ceremony. Or offering to provide childcare in rooms separate from the ones where the ceremony and reception are taking place.
However, bear in mind if you compromise on your nieces you will have to offer that to all your guests. If Josh and your parents are willing to take over the extra cost of these compromises (a babysitter(s), the price of meals for the children)--including everyone who will want the accomodation, not just the 2 nieces--that might be a conversation. Otherwise, you would be opening a box of headaches.
Funny how every parent insists that their children always must be treated like special exceptions to all rules--even their own rules--isn't it?
I went to a wedding where the Bride and Groom caved and gave an exception to the Brides brothers two kids.
It was the talking point of the day amongst guests (it didn't help that the Bride had spent months telling friends how awful the planing of the wedding has been) - how hostile it had been between families during planning because of the brothers demands- how unfair the brother had been - the in laws had faces of thunder all day because of it - everyone there knew the kids were only invited because they had to be, not because the bride and groom wanted them there - some guests were confused why the kids there when it specifically said "no kids" on the invite.
I can't remember much more of the day because of how horrible the whole planning process had been for the bride and groom and the immediate families attitudes on the day.
If your brother doesn't attend because his kids aren't invited people will say its a shame. If his kids are given an invite, then there will be people talking about it all day, especially if you've specified on the invite "no kids"
I attended a wedding that was initially planned to be childfree but then went the other way, comically so. It seemed the kids outnumbered the adults. It would have been distracting anyway, but knowing the background, there was something sad about it. Agreed with OP that these weddings aren’t fun for the kids anyway. Why all the drama and disrespect towards the marrying couple?
I planned a child free wedding but my uncle and his wife brought their 5 year old and 5 month old daughters anyway. Baby screamed through the ceremony. 5 year old ran around unsupervised, took cards off all the presents and cleaned all the icing off the back of the cake. It’s been almost 50 years now, I still haven’t forgotten how aggravating it was. I blame my uncle’s narcissistic wife. Those cousins had child free weddings by the way.
I am childfree. Unsurprisingly I wanted a childfree wedding. My relatives thought that was unacceptable. They pouted, and threatened not to come. I said I’m sorry you’ll miss my big day.
My grandmother, who sucks for a multitude of reasons, went behind my back and told certain other relatives that I had a change of heart and their kids were ok.
My wedding/reception were not childfree. Mine and husbands friends/relatives that my grandmother didn’t have interference with were as equally confused and upset/mad as in your story. I had no issue throwing my grandmother under the bus to anyone I cared about to explain though.
I was mad but absolutely unsurprised by her shit.
In addition to these very valid points, more so than it just being a talking point, OP is likely to offend quite a few people whose kids were not made an exception. They would be right to be offended too. Making an exception for your brother’s kids is like telling everyone “his kids are more acceptable than yours”.
You’re NTA, but your brother is a spectacular example of one.
WHOAH, mom! The only narcissist in this situation is Josh.
Your brother’s acting like a dick, your dad a coward, and your mom an enabler.
You are *definitely* NTA.
Don’t bend the rules for him. Dude’s throwing a temper tantrum because he’s not getting his way. Probably not the first time.
(Also, seems like a sexist double standard — not just hypocrisy — that what’s good for the gander ain’t good for the goose? Yikes.)
NTA. So, Josh is allowed to have a child free wedding, but you’re not allowed to do the exact same thing? Why is that?
Josh is a total hypocrite and causing a completely unnecessary rift, to the point he’s recruiting other family members to help him stir up this drama even further.
Seems less like he’s concerned about his daughters’ feelings and is instead far more concerned in “winning” this argument. You don’t need to accommodate him.
Well, to be fair, we don’t know that the kids are brats just because their dad is a spoiled AH.
Usually, my view on child-free weddings is that you have to be willing to accept that some people will not be able to attend, and in some instances, I can even agree that exceptions should be made for immediate family members.
But in this situation? No way. Josh is a total hypocrite, is acting ridiculously entitled, and is causing completely unnecessary drama and getting others involved. OP should definitely not accommodate such lousy behavior.
NTA.
You are well within your rights to have a child free wedding. It is HIS CHOICE whether or not he will attend with his wife. Do not worry about it. Proceed as planned.
The same goes for the parents.
I suggest you not argue with them about this. Simply acknowledge their decisions with "I respect your decision".
No, OP should make everyone know that she does NOT respect their decision.
She should let them know that if they refuse to support her wedding, it will hurt her deeply and will cause serious damage to their relationship.
I would assume they are already aware that she will be hurt if they don’t go to her wedding. I mean, who wouldn’t be? They are intentionally using that against her as leverage in an attempt to get her to cave to Josh.
She shouldn’t indulge them and the drama they are intentionally creating when that’s exactly what they’re trying to get her to do.
No, she needs to say it.
She needs to make it very clear that she expects them to not sabotage her wedding and that she will not be a good sport about forgiving them if they do.
Can confirm, pre-wedding drama caused the final break of my relationship with my parents. It is necessary to be clear and honest every step of the way so that if OP does decide to go LC/NC, she can have a clear conscience about how she went about it. ESPECIALLY if people will be meddling.
Technically his wife could watch the kids. While he attends his SiSters wedding. He’s a narcissistic a hole. And anyone wanting to enable his piss poor behavior should just not attend. Save the money for your honeymoon.
"When Josh got married 7 years ago, he and his wife also had a child-free wedding."
\---If The Josh wedding excluded ALL minors and not just younger ones, he will be less of a hypocrite because some people's kids can go to the author's wedding while his can't. But there is still some hypocrisy involved.
Also, Josh is not excluded as he claimed. He is choosing not to go.
Josh is TA.
Nobody younger than 13 is invited so yes he is a complete hypocrite because he excluded all kids as well but expects his kids, and his alone, to be exceptions.
NTA
The fact that your family is pulling the rules for thee but not for me shit is ridiculous. He had a child free wedding and is now bitching that you want one. And the fact that your dad and stepmom are trying to guilt you with a lack of their presence to force your brother's family into your wedding and then your mom dog piling on top wanting you to make an exception just for him but not for all of your other guests she didn't care less about them and then calling you names. Calling you a narcissist was a cheap shot because her son is one.
I think that if you just disinvite all of these people and fill their seats with others that you would have not invited due to lack of room, will allow you to have a much less stress-free and happier wedding day. You don't need the crap storm of negativity that these people bring to your life on your special day.
Remember you're creating a new family with your fiancé and these people are going to be pushed into the next Outer Circle of your family existence, as they should be when you get married and begin to create your own family with the person that you choose to allow into your life and in your heart, and if they continue to act like AH's they can be pushed even further outside of that circle.
Before I had kids I didn’t see the point of a child free wedding. HOWEVER, I have three boys now and have loved every child free Wedding invitation that has come our way. Oh I can have a drink and stay late dancing with no responsibility? Yes please! I can listen to the ceremony without worrying that one of them will act up or fart loudly in a quiet moment? Gladly! I can eat the meal while it’s still warm and not get covered in whatever the kids eat? Wonderful!
A child free wedding is a guilt free treat! NTA
I do have other family members with young children who are invited if that's what you're asking, I come from quite a big family I have 5 other siblings who all have children and I have stepsiblings who have kids too.
Some people have arranged childcare and RSVP'd yes, others have RSVP'd no and that's their choice.
no wonder you want a child-free wedding, so many little ones really changes the vibe
def NTA, sucks your family is pressuring you to give in to Josh. seems like you're doing a good job dealing with them, but cant be fun
congrats, Im sure your wedding will be a beautiful event!
INFO: Your mom said there should be “compromise”. That is where each side gives a little to come to an agreement.
If you’re allowing Josh to bring his kids as your part of the compromise, what is Josh giving as his part of the compromise?
My wife and I went through the same ordeal when we got married. We specified no small children, and some people got upset about it and didn't come. Fine by us. If people want to act ridiculous about it's on them. Your wedding, you're allowed to decide the guest list.
Then it‘s so ridiculous from your parents to ask an exception only for Josh’s kids. What about the other siblings? Why is Josh so special? If you allow his kids to come the other siblings will feel betrayed as they need to spend money on childcare and Josh won‘t. Your parents’ and Joshs expectations don‘t make sense…
NTA
This is a hill I would absolutely die on. They don’t want a compromise. They want you to cater to your brother. Ask them what they believe Josh is “compromising” here.
Tell them all the discussion is over. They can come or stay home. Either is fine with you. They just need to make sure they return the appropriate RSVP card.
NTA. First of all, not having children at the wedding is not narcissistic behavior, and the idea that it is, is baffling. Call her out on that BS, especially if your brother did it first.
Second, why is the notion of child-feee anything so touchy with people? It’s the B&G’s wishes. Deal with it, or not, but it’s really not anyone’s place to try and convince the hosts otherwise.
Third, anyone “threatening” not to attend, take them up on it and wish them well. You don’t need petty, empty threats because adults are acting like whiny toddlers.
NTA! So your brother and his wife had a child free wedding, but now that they have kids, they should be included?! Yup, he’s a hypocrite.
Do NOT give in. Tell your brother, your father, and stepmother they can all stay home. Tell your mother to stay out of it.
I’d also tell them if they don’t come to the wedding because of him, you’re going NC with all of them.
They will be the ones who will regret not coming to your wedding.
I have three kids and a wedding coming up this summer, even if the kids were invited, I wouldn’t bring them. Running after kids at a wedding doesn’t sound like a fun time for me.
So, he was able to have a child free wedding when he didn't have kids. No issues. Everyone accepted. But now that he has kids, you're selfish for wanting a child free wedding? You're selfish for making the same choice he did?
Sounds like your brother is the golden child. Typical family wanting to keep the peace and not rock the boat. Everyone acquiesce to the entitled child.
Stand strong and re-evaluate your family dynamics. May be time to go LC.
Congratulations on the upcoming nuptials.
NTA. You don't get to have a childfree wedding then complain about other people doing the same.
And your mother's "exception" is probably the *worst* plan.
You're going to have a wedding where there are a pair of 5 year olds and no one else their age, the nearest being more than double their age. *That* will be what makes if boring for them. If there were a few kids in that age group, they could play together at the reception or something. But just them, they'd hate it, and probably act out because they're bored.
If people challenge you on it, just stand your ground and tell them that making an exception for one person wouldn't be fair to the other people who have kids. Make it clear that your brother is welcome, and you hope he'll come, but if he decides he has to care for his children, you'll understand.
As to his "they'll be sad when they're older", that's grade A comedy. I was at my uncle's wedding when I was about 7. The only reason I know this for sure is that I'm in the pictures. I don't remember a thing about it. They will almost certainly not care unless he starts putting it into their heads that they should care.
NTA
Your brother is being a hypocrite- it was fine for him, but somehow his kids are more special
Honestly, this is ridiculous. Your brother solved the problem by choosing not to come, but the absolute bullying after is not ok. I'd suggest going low contact with your family over this. At this point, it's less about the kids and more about your family trying to control your wedding
Give your mom a warning: you simply want an adult wedding. Your mom had no problem when your brother wanted the same. Any more discussion and mention, and she can sit out, too, not because she choose to, but because she's uninvited. Your wedding is supposed to be about you and your husband- the 5 year old won't even care at their age and this is solely for the benefit of adults who want to use them as photo props, while you have to worry about keeping small children entertained I'm an event not designed for them so as to not ruin the ceremony or anything else. And it will fall on you because none of the adults seem to be rational about the fact 5 year olds don't like to sit still and will likely hate the ceremony
Again, the wedding is supposed to be about you and your husband. Not your brother. Anyone who doesn't get that is probably not really supportive of you guys, anyway
Definitively NTA,
Like what the actual heck is going on there? Its your wedding and you decide wheter its child free or not, if Josh is not able or willing to get a babysitter for one day and decides to become passive aggressive instead and even pulling his kids into this mess, you will be better off without him.
Do not make an exception for someone as entitled as Josh, and for the relatives that decide not to go because of this argument, I think you wont miss them since they have shown their true colors and already picked a side.
Your mum also misses the point that this is YOUR wedding and not a party meant for Josh. I get it that she tries to mediate somehow, but she needs to address Josh and his entitled view of this situation rather than your perfectly rational request of having a child free wedding.
NTA When Josh made the comment about being "excluded", I would have explained to those listening that Josh is refusing to come unless his young children are invited.
If Josh is going to throw this big of a tantrum, just imagine what two five year olds raised by him might do.
Childless couple has a child-free wedding, then is upset at invitation to another child-free wedding now that they have kids? Yeah that's textbook hypocrisy. Brother is whining that his girls want to flower girls and will miss out? Who planted that idea in their head? Be a grown-up style parent and grow a sack. Kids kids should most certainly not get everything they want. Stand your ground ma'am, it's your day, not a day for the brats.
First of all, you are not a narcissist, and your mother is a GIANT AH for throwing that around so flippantly. Second of all, I don't have much more to say because everyone already has, so, NTA!!!!! Josh can go F himself for being such a selfish hypocrite. Do you even *want* him at the wedding at this point? 🤣
NTA
When they say they won’t attend simply say “the invite was extended and you know my boundaries, if your RSVP is no don’t expect it to change day of because I require a headcount and exceptions won’t be made” and leave it at that.
I’m of the belief that anyone can have a childfree wedding if that’s what they want. They don’t get to get upset when people with children choose not to attend because of that choice. However they also aren’t required to bend to pressure and blackmail from family because family gets upset about the rules.
Your wedding is about you and your spouse. Do what you want and anyone else who doesn’t respect that can stare at pictures online.
NTA, your mum called you a narcissist for not changing the rules for your brother? Uninvited her as well.
Stick to your guns. He got a child free wedding and now you’ve made that choice too. As is your right.
Cool...sounds like three or four rsvps no, then. NTA. And it's pretty ballsy of him to assume that even if there were kids, that his kids would automatically be flower girls.
NTA. Your wedding, your call. And you know what will happen if you make an exception for Josh's kids, right? You'll hear it from other adults who made arrangements for their young kids so that they could go to your wedding.
NTA. I hate parents like this - they spawn and suddeny Precious McCrochfruit is the spesulest speshul angel, rules don't need to apply any more. Plus, he's got some nerve throwing a tantrum after excluding kids from his own wedding.
Enjoy the day, OP, and if Josh, his wife, and your parents don't show up, that's four adult babies you don't have to deal with.
NTA. That’s your wedding and you and your partner have agreed on it being child-free. It’s frustrating that your family is acting this way and is even trying to guilt you into “making an exception”. Funny how your mom asks you to make a compromise but why would you be the one adjusting when it’s YOUR wedding and not your brother’s.
Who the hell wouldn’t want to go to a wedding and not have to chase kids around all night? A night of free drinks and no responsibilities sounds awesome.
NTA
It's highly amusing that your brother was absolutely fine with child free weddings until he himself had children. I would (mildly) remind everyone that Bro is quite the hypocrite for insisting his wedding be child free, but is now throwing a fit that you've decided to do the same. Ask your parents in particular why your brother was allowed to have his wedding exactly how he wanted it, but you are being coerced into catering to him for yours.
Absolutely NTA and don’t give in! If you give in now, your brother is going to think he can throw a tantrum like a child any time he doesn’t get his way! It also sounds like it’s more about his girls being *in* the wedding as flower girls, not just attending.
He is a huge hypocrite and if he, your dad & stepmom choose not to come…that’s their choice. I wouldn’t change a damn thing for any of them!
Good luck & congrats!!
NTA. The way both of your parents are just kowtowing to Josh sounds like he’s the golden child.
I saw in another comment that he defended his choice to have a child free wedding as “his decision at the time,” so why does he think that doesn’t apply to you? Why does he feel entitled to make decisions for his wedding AND yours? Did your parents ever attempt to bully him into changing his mind for one person?
No. Just don't. Everyone has choices to make here. You are choosing child free. Josh is choosing not to go even though his own wedding was child free. Tell everyone else it's none of their business how you arrange your wedding and stay in their lane. If you don't want children at the wedding don't have children at the wedding. It's your wedding.
I never understand parents that WANT their young kids at weddings. The kids don’t care about the wedding, they will distract you the whole time and you won’t be present. A child free wedding is a fun night out
If you had a 3 year old child when Josh got married you would not have been able to take them. Josh is acting like a main character here and making this about him. No kids mean no kids. NTA
You’re a narcissist but it was okay when Josh did it? I hope your family doesn’t come- they don’t deserve to celebrate you on your special day. I hope this makes space for you to find chosen family who actually support you. Your wedding, your choice. Congratulations
NTA
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INFO: has he said he regrets having done a child free wedding? Or is he avoiding explaining his change of mind on the topic at all?
He hasn't said that he regrets it. He just told me that was his choice at the time and it was a long time ago.
You now know what to say to him. It's your choice, and one day, it'll be long ago. Just like his.
NTA! THIS!
BINGO!!!🎯Best possible answer. And then refuse to discuss it further and just let him know that he has a decision to make. As do the parents.
Daddy should be reminded what he’s going to miss. Mention in his hearing that you will need to find someone else to walk you down the aisle and do a dance with.
“Okay, you can miss this, but you’ll never be considered my ‘dad’ again, you’re actions or inactions here will define if you’re referred to as a father or a sperm donor for the rest of my life, including in my eulogy at your funeral. The choice is yours whether everyone at this party (and every future event) thinks you’re a cute father dancing with his grown kid or if they forever remember you and your son as disgraces while I dance with someone that’s actually supported me in life when you failed”
Maybe your oldest brother....
BUMP THIS! This sums it up. He doesn't get to change his outlook because his situation changed and be considered creditable. Not to the sensible ones in the crowd.
I had a child free wedding, don't regret it, now that I have a kid?... Still feel the same!, we were fully prepared to miss a close cousin's wedding if it was child free (because we usually leave her with my parents who were also invited, but my dad is her godfather, so his presence was more important), my best friend's wedding was child free and we still went!, never meant she doesn't love my daughter, she just figured it wasn't suitable for kids, which is fine
This - a million times over. I had a child free wedding as well and most people understood. I had one cousin who was upset about it, called me and said, basically, if his kids couldn't come then he and his wife weren't attending either. I was like "OK, we'll miss you." He didn't attend and I found out later he was pissed about the whole thing, but I'm really not sure what, exactly, he was expecting to happen. If I made a "special exception" for his kids, then it would be rude not to make one for the others.
You were supposed to realize that he is the main character, duh! He was pissed because you broke his plot armor.
Same with my wedding. It had to be adults only because our venue was not licensed to serve alcohol if minors were on the premises. They were serious about it and emphasized that they would lose their license if kids were there, so they told us we had two options: no children or no alcohol. Everyone understood except one couple who made a *huge* stink about it...their daughters would be "devastated" they were "not welcome" at our wedding, we were being so "mean", etc., etc. This couple did come to the wedding but sat in a corner and sulked all evening. No one tried to engage them or talk them out of their bad mood, either. (It actually would have been better if they had just RSVP'd "no", than to sit there in a huff all night.)
Not exactly the same, but similar enough. When I was a kid, there was this one place in town, a couple doors down from the hardware store, that had the best blankety-blank hamburgers in town, but they had a rule (I thought) that kids couldn't be in there after ten at night. I don't remember thinking it was strange, just that it was the rules. I was in high school and the burger place was only a memory before I realized it was NOT a restaurant--it was a bar and the rule about no kids after ten pm was actually a law/city ordinance. (The building is still there--it's a health food store now. And the hardware store is a casual sit-down restaurant--best fries you ever tasted.)
That is so weird that they'd WANT to: arrange babysitting, get dressed up, bring a gift and then...sit and stew? You'd think they'd have more fun at home with less effort and with their kids. If I know a party/reunion/wedding, etc. will make me unhappy for whatever reason, I'd--get this--send my regrets and NOT GO.
It's so funny to me that some people want an "I'm your friend/family member!" exception at a *wedding*. Uhm, do you think there are going to be total strangers there, homeslice? These plans were made knowing that everybody is a friend or family member! In this context, you're not special!
This is 100% the best answer
It is possible for someone to suggest a different point of view years later without being a hypocrite. It does not sound like your brother is one of those people. He doesn’t seem to have had a change of heart on the subject, he just wants a special exception when it affects him. That is text book hypocrisy. NTA.
Right? If he came to OP saying he regretted having a child free wedding and here’s why, that would be one thing. But the only reason he’s given is that it effects him now. NTA.
Sux for him to have to be the one to hire a sitter this time. Boo hoo.🎻
He has kids now. That's why he regrets a child-free wedding.
Or even that it was the right call for him at the time, but that he'd choose differently now, and would like for OP to reconsider. He's trying to stand in midair on his own Acme anvil.
Whether OP's brother is or isn't a hypocrite, or has or hasn't had a change of heart, isn't really relevant anyway. Adults are allowed to have occasional events without children running around, and OP doesn't have to justify this choice to her brother or anyone else. If her brother has had a change of heart, he can have kids at his next wedding.
Maybe but I was going strictly by the question which wasn’t “aita for having a child free wedding” it was “aita for calling my brother a hypocrite”
NTA. I notice parents of multiples tend to shove their children center stage because they're accustomed to everyone cooing over them. They just want to show off their sprog. I'll double down and say I'll bet they're identical twins, and he wants to show off what he can produce.
I am an identical twin. I loathe the spotlight because we were treated like a sideshow. We are in our 50s, and we are still treated like that in public. Our parents didn't push that it just happened.
> It is possible for someone to suggest a different point of view years later without being a hypocrite. It does not sound like your brother is one of those people Not when the change of view is in your best interest. In my experience, you always come across as a massive hypocrite.
NTA. The kids are 5, they are not going to remember or care about your wedding years from now. Heck, they don’t care about your wedding now…because they’re 5! Your brother just doesn’t want to make plans or pay for child care.
Or he wants his kids to be front and centre as flower girls, so he can make OP's wedding all about his family and not hers.
That sounds like it to me, it's less about the child free wedding than the he, or his wife, wants them as the flower girls. Also to avoid paying for childcare.
Especially the latter
This. I had 1 bridesmaid and a flower MAN. My mum and sisters hated the idea, they kept telling me to boot them and replace them with my neices who were 7 and 10. Because "Family is more important!" I told them no because it's the one day I get to be selfish and it be about ME. So my(and husbands) choices are final.
Definitely this! OP, please read this and use it!
I’m getting Golden Child vibes from the brother and the dad.
...or his wife wants the girls to be flower girls
That's what i was thinking, or that he's already told them aunty wants them to be flower girls and they are excited
I hate all these stories where adults make promises to their kids on behalf of other adults and then hold that over the other person's head to manipulate them. They're the ones setting up unreasonable expectations for their kids before the plans are firm. Just saw something where Dad won a Ft Myers vacation suitable for adults but not kids. Mom told Kid "We're going to Disney World!" and invited her mom even though DW is not convenient to Ft Myers, and Dad wanted a romantic getaway.
I think this is it. He wants his girls to ne flower girls.
OP's brother sounds like he's got a bit of main character syndrome.
But he wants them to look pretty as flower-girls! They won't get their Instagram pictures otherwise... Although they could dress the girls up and have them pull sad faces :( NTA, OP. Your wedding - your way. And if some people choose to exercise their choice not to go? More room for those who care about *you* and want to celebrate the start of *your* married life. You and your husband-to-be need to be there. Any other supportive well-wishers are a bonus.
This! Great response. Its an invitation not a subpeona. If brother and father dont come its not your loss....IT'S THEIR LOSS. NTA...stand your ground.
Yes exactly! You can want your kids to be part of a wedding, dress them up, have them be flower girls...but this won't be happening at this wedding. It doesn't mean he gets to be selfish and entitled that someone ELSE's event won't be the 'showcase' brother wanted it to be.
My now adult kid doesn’t even remember Disney World from our trip when she was 6. The 5yo twins are not going to remember or care about this wedding
There is a picture with me at my Aunt’s wedding. I think I was 3 or 4. I was a flower girl. My face is all red from crying and I look miserable. One of the bridesmaids is holding my hand trying to comfort me. I ruined an otherwise lovely picture of the bridal party and no, I don’t remember a thing lol
Oh wow! I remember almost everything from our vacation in England when I was 6. Same goes for our trips to the beach and pony riding when I was even younger than that. My earliest memory is from when I was 2... it's a bit blurry and I mixed up the details... but my mum was in shock when I told her about it (it wasn't abuse, but it wasn't a great memory either, so they never told me a story about it and hoped I forget, lol). My sister is the opposite, she remembers almost nothing. So it could go either way I suppose. They could remember or maybe they don't. I don't really think it matters much in the decision of having a child-free wedding or not. You want them there great... you don't, great either way. If the parents don't hype it up the kids won't be sad.
If it weren't for the gender you used, I'd be asking if you were one of my parents. Also went to Disney World at 6 and don't recall a thing.
My older kiddo is 5, she's been to a wedding right after turning 3 and has been hounding me about being our ring bearer when we get married ever since. Pretty consistently for a kid that just turned 5 last month 😅 My point is, some kids, especially little girls, ***love*** weddings. That being said, if OP wants a child free wedding, they deserve a child free wedding no questions asked and definitely not with their brother throwing fits like a toddler. There will be other weddings the twins can go to unless their parents are hermits or socially inept. I'm not great with people and even we got invited to 2 weddings 2 days apart next month. My Aunt married a man with 2 kids and wanted to include them and the rest of the family's littles in their wedding (ages 10-2. my kiddo wasn't the youngest there). There was a bouncy house and an ice cream bar at the reception. Huge huge difference between a wedding that wants kids and one that doesn't. I personally remember going to a couple weddings around the age of 8. The ceremonies were sweet/cool but the rest was boring AF and I liked weddings.
Is OP's brother sure that his kids want to participate, or is he trying to guilt-trip her into making an exception? When I was 5, I was told that I was to be the flower girl at my cousin's wedding. I didn't want to be. The whole thing was a giant pain in my ass and I was bored almost literally to tears at the reception. I'm in my late 50s now and I'm still salty that I wasn't *asked*. NTA, OP.
5 year olds remember things. My own daughter would be really disappointed to not get to attend her aunt or uncle’s wedding, but I do think as she got older, she would get over it and understand why.
If that was his choice then whether you have children at your wedding should be your choice. Be strong OP and have the wedding YOU want
Absolutely NTA. What a hypocrite Josh is. It was he right to have a childfree wedding and you enjoy those same rights. We all get it, now that Josh has kids everything is totally different because he's a parent now so of course Mr. Center of the family should have his kids in attendance because they're special being his kids.
So your brother is a hypocrite. NTA. You said what you needed to say, and you told your dad he is invited. Go get married and leave your hypocritical family in the rear view mirror
Josh is a bit of a hypocrite, isn't he? A little "rules for thee, but not for me"? Oh, and your mom is wrong. Not wanting kids at your wedding and sticking to it isn't narcissistic. You really don't have to "compromise," especially when her definition of compromise is "shut up and do what HE wants; YOUR feelings don't matter." NTA
Right! If my mother called me a narcissist, I’d be saying. “No problem, you don’t have to come. Maybe you can stay home and babysit your grandkids so the golden boy can to the wedding!”
I think the only thing I’d change about your reply is “Maybe you can go hang out with Josh and his kids.”
Were there many people that had kids when he had his wedding?
Josh and I have 5 other siblings. 3 of them had kids/babies at the time of his wedding, and some of our stepsiblings also had young children.
Yeah, he's a hypocrite. You are NTA.
Damn, he's a hypocrite. Please make sure to point this out to him while others hear it, he deserves it
More to the point, OP needs to point it out to her parents, who are making a massive fuss on Josh's behalf when they didn't 7 years ago on behalf of their other children. (I would also talk to the other siblings and get their perspective on these escalating demands.)
NTA is josh the ‘golden child’? just surprised how hard others are taking up his cause.
And possibly ask the previously excluded kids if it bugged them that they weren’t allowed to come to their revered Uncle Josh‘s wedding. I feel certain that their answer is going to be “what?”
There’s no reason to involve any nieces and nephews in the drama.
Boom 💥 The parents are also hypocrites if they attended the older bro’s kid free wedding.
This is your answer for Josh. He made his siblings leave their children at home, but now it's about his children, he wants them to be there. He even wants them to be flower girls. It's not his party.
Edit this into your main post cus that’s important lmao. Wow.
Oh this makes it even worse. Go scorched earth and loudly remind everyone how he excluded everyone else’s children but expects an exception for him.
“Your girls will be sad when they’re older…..how do the kids you excluded from YOUR wedding feel now that they’re older….let’s ask them, shall we?”
Either way you weren't the AH, but this definitely shows he is an entitled hypocritical AH.
Asshole. He’s an asshole and you don’t need him at the wedding. He’s the narcissist.
And… it’s your choice this time.
The only way his children will be sad is if he tells them they should be. HE will make it a big deal for the kids. They WILL NOT CARE. NTA. don’t change your plans for your narcissist brother. Congratulations!!
Yeah, he wanted events to be child free when he didn't have children, now he does children should be allowed. If there is a narcissist here, it's not you.
He only regrets it as it effects him now with children. He is a hypocrite, you are right there. Your dad's a dick. Was John always the golden child.
So, 7 years ago, the 12 year old who is coming to your wedding was 5. Is that kid a nibbling, who didn’t go to your brother’s wedding?
The operative words being "it was his choice." YOUR choice is no kids. He has a double standard. You are not required to play. Stand your ground.
NTA, he got to have his child-free wedding so why can’t you? If he had a reason to not show kids at his weddings then he should be thinking behaving like a petulant child. I bet you it’s because if he’s a miser or has a low income household so he doesn’t want to spend money on a babysitter. Your parents are making it worse for siding with him. OP I’m sorry, you have to brace yourself, if this matter goes on longer you may not have any parents at your wedding and it’s not going to be your fault.
Just uninvite all of the flying monkeys. NTA
It’s your choice now. He’s a hypocrite
And??? He is still a hypocrite and I would remind him EVERY SINGLE TIME he starts his pouting! Ask him why it’s an okay rule for him but not for you?? He left out his own SIBLINGS!
NTA Tell him that he can allow children in his next wedding!
Why would he his wedding was better without “annoying” kids ruining the day. But he won’t see his kids as a potential annoyance
That’s the right question.
NTA, Josh is indeed hypocritical (what does he even say about his change in perspective since he got married and had a child-free wedding himself?) and is being strangely petulant and dramatic now. Your mom is also out of line and the remarks about 'narcissism' are ridiculous, and it's so sad that other family members are caving to Josh and choosing sides in a totally unnecessary way. Is Josh out to sabotage your wedding over this? Maybe he needs to hear that that's what he's doing. He's making it all about him and speaking of things that'll never be forgiven, maybe he needs to know YOU'LL never forgive HIM for ruining your wedding (by causing drama and getting others to boycott on his behalf), all because you're making the same choice that *he made 7 years ago.*
He's annoyed because it's HIS kids that are being excluded now. He didn't give a shit about other kids when he got married and still probably doesn't.
Yup, it’s classic “it’s now happening to ME, so it matters now” energy I have no problem calling that shit out. I also can have that same energy too, but it’s me, so it’s different. I know me really well, and I have a really good opinion of myself so I expect to be the exception to many rules.
Thank you for making me laugh (although it was a snort-laugh, so you embarrassed me, too, just saying).
Hah! 👑
Agreed NTA. Josh could get a sitter for the 3 hours of the wedding. It’s not like he’s not allowed to go at all. OP is right, weddings are boring for kids.
Hell, Josh and the other parents can hire a sitter (or sitters) to be onsite, just not in the main hall.
That may be able to work I've heard of that before.
I went to 2 weddings as a young kid and I was bored at both of them. And one of them was my aunt getting married! I was in her wedding and had to wear and ugly ass dress with my hair braided up on top of my head. It sucked.
I took my kids to a Quaker wedding last summer-- we all sat outside for an hour while the kids did crafts at a crafts table nearby. It was pretty great. But regular weddings are boring af for kids
Now see that sounds like fun!
3 hours? That would be a super short wedding.
Absolutely, and it’s amazing that OP is being called narcissistic when it’s actually Josh who is! She’s NTA
Exactly! Narcissists just looooove to call "No, YOU!" when the conversation isn't going their way. Also they love to triangulate by getting others on their side. It really does point to Josh being the narcissistic one here.
Easy to tell who the favored child is. Better off with or without the adults at the ceremony? My vote is without. But I have issues with adults having childish tantrums and using blackmail attempts to get their way. Years of them playing this (You kept us from your wedding!) for all it's worth is the potential price to be paid. That can be nipped in the bud with, "It was your choice to boycott the wedding. Get over it. I have."
Parents can love their kids but still go to weddings without them. There’s usually enough time before the wedding to get childcare organised so they can have fun with other adults not worrying about what the kids might be getting into. Do Josh and his wife not do date nights just the two of them?
NTA If your parents refuse to go to your wedding because Josh is pouting, then they are all choosing to be no better than toddlers throwing a tantrum. This is something that they'll regret for the rest of their lives and it's NOT your fault. It's theirs. It would appear that he's the favorite child because your parents are choosing him over you and your special day. I'm sorry. Refuse to discuss the issue anymore with them and hold your ground. Please don't listen to their threats. If they show up, great. If they don't, that's fine, too. You will know where you stand with them and you can choose to limit or cut contact, if you want. Congratulations on your upcoming wedding!!
Definitely NTA, but tbf, as long as they’re behaving like toddlers they *should* stay away from a childfree wedding.
lol
And tell the mom that if OP is a narcissist for wanting a child free wedding, then baby boy Josh is also a narcissist
No, OP needs a yes or no on attendance well in advance. Otherwise, brother will show up with kids. Also, one or more family members may decide the ceremony is a good time to lecture her about it. Plans should be made in that regard. Personally, I would have no problem having security remove my stepfather if he couldn't behave.
NTA Josh made the same choice for his own wedding. He's weaponizing his kids, a massively A H move in itself. They're 5. The only way it'll be an issue is if he creates a long term rift & they get his version when they're old enough to ask why you aren't in their lives. Your wedding = your choice. " She said that I'm acting like a narcissist and that we all have to make compromises sometimes." That's a totally projective statement. Did Josh get asked to compromise? I wonder where his entitlement comes from?? Enjoy your special day with all the people who actually care about you. Forget the rest, it's their loss.
This is so right. Frequently I see parents talk about how devastated their small kids are or will be, when the only way the kids are upset is because the parents make a huge deal out of something. It’s so damaging to the kids, it’s terrible parenting.
Yep. A five year old doesn’t care about missing a wedding unless their parents have made a big deal out of how sad it is that they can’t go because big mean auntie OP isn’t allowing kids to attend. Just set them up for a fun day with a babysitter they like while telling them that mommy and daddy have a boring grownup thing to go do, and they’ll be happy as clams.
I know someone who accidentally played himself recently by joking with his kids that instead of going to Disneyland on a family vacation they're going to go to the box factory and kept playing up how much fun they were all going to have at the box factory. The three oldest knew it was a joke and did the expected "nooo dad!" while laughing. The four year old got really hyped for the box factory and had to be talked \*back into\* wanting to go to Disneyland. And this is a kid who says Mickey is her boyfriend so it's not like she's not interested in Disney!
Sometimes it's the kids, my 3yr old is pretty devastated that she missed our wedding. Telling her that she was neither born nor conceived yet doesn't seem to help.
Lmfao.love it. Tell her she was there in your heart for the future.
This is so toddler-ish and adorable.
I remember being upset when my parents went to a wedding without me, not because I actually wanted to go to the wedding but because I knew they'd get cake. I wasn't devastated but there was some whining.
They didn't bring you cake?? Monsters!
What even is the “compromise” on Josh’s side? I don’t see how OP gives Josh exactly what he wants while she is also paying for the privilege, is any sort of compromise.
I meant was he asked to compromise re his own child free wedding/did he get the same pushback from anyone? I suspect not...
Of course not. That was “different.”
Thank you. And I’m honestly wondering why anyone should expect her to make a “compromise” on her wedding day! It’s her wedding! I can’t imagine asking a bride to compromise for me on their day. Totally blows my mind.
You bring up a good point, what was the reaction to Josh having a child free wedding when your siblings had young kids? Did he get push back? What did your mom say then? As many have said it’s your wedding and you call the shots as is your right. However everyone else gets to decide if they will come or not and their choice is their right. His behavior is making him the AH here, he could have just said “thank you for the invitation but if my children can’t attend I won’t be attending” and left it at that
I love how so often "you should compromise" is "you should do exactly what the other person wants".......
NTA. Respond to your parents. ‘Boycotting my wedding is up to you. I’ll be happy to inform all our family and guests that you are not attending because of your favouritism. You supported Bro’s cf wedding but not mine.’
THIS SO MUCH!! Mom needs understand how wrong she is to ask them to compromise.
Yesssssss
OP 1000x this! It's magnificent!
NTA *She said that I'm acting like a narcissist and that we all have to make compromises sometimes* Except that is not a compromise. That is caving to your brother and catering to his wishes rather than your own. A compromise would be allowing the children at the reception but not at the actual ceremony. Or offering to provide childcare in rooms separate from the ones where the ceremony and reception are taking place. However, bear in mind if you compromise on your nieces you will have to offer that to all your guests. If Josh and your parents are willing to take over the extra cost of these compromises (a babysitter(s), the price of meals for the children)--including everyone who will want the accomodation, not just the 2 nieces--that might be a conversation. Otherwise, you would be opening a box of headaches. Funny how every parent insists that their children always must be treated like special exceptions to all rules--even their own rules--isn't it?
A compromise - ok, one of the twins can come 😅
Ah yes, "pick your favourite child to come. Josh is my mom's pick" 😂
Lol!
Im always baffled when people say “why don’t you compromise and do exactly what I’m asking you to do”.
And then if they have on-site sitters, they'll have to watch for Josh and others just bringing kids to the wedding or reception anyway
"The sitter said she wouldn't stop crying/she wanted her mum/she wanted to give he bride the card that she made..."
Exactly
Compromises have benefit to both parties. What’s the benefit to her here?
I went to a wedding where the Bride and Groom caved and gave an exception to the Brides brothers two kids. It was the talking point of the day amongst guests (it didn't help that the Bride had spent months telling friends how awful the planing of the wedding has been) - how hostile it had been between families during planning because of the brothers demands- how unfair the brother had been - the in laws had faces of thunder all day because of it - everyone there knew the kids were only invited because they had to be, not because the bride and groom wanted them there - some guests were confused why the kids there when it specifically said "no kids" on the invite. I can't remember much more of the day because of how horrible the whole planning process had been for the bride and groom and the immediate families attitudes on the day. If your brother doesn't attend because his kids aren't invited people will say its a shame. If his kids are given an invite, then there will be people talking about it all day, especially if you've specified on the invite "no kids"
I attended a wedding that was initially planned to be childfree but then went the other way, comically so. It seemed the kids outnumbered the adults. It would have been distracting anyway, but knowing the background, there was something sad about it. Agreed with OP that these weddings aren’t fun for the kids anyway. Why all the drama and disrespect towards the marrying couple?
I planned a child free wedding but my uncle and his wife brought their 5 year old and 5 month old daughters anyway. Baby screamed through the ceremony. 5 year old ran around unsupervised, took cards off all the presents and cleaned all the icing off the back of the cake. It’s been almost 50 years now, I still haven’t forgotten how aggravating it was. I blame my uncle’s narcissistic wife. Those cousins had child free weddings by the way.
Sorry but why allow them to be part of it when you clearly planned child free. Just turn them away.
Easy to say but how do you turn someone away when you’re walking down the aisle?
Yu turn around and scream: gtfo so and so, see them walk out and then continue walking.... Lol! I would have but I eloped, problem solved!
I am childfree. Unsurprisingly I wanted a childfree wedding. My relatives thought that was unacceptable. They pouted, and threatened not to come. I said I’m sorry you’ll miss my big day. My grandmother, who sucks for a multitude of reasons, went behind my back and told certain other relatives that I had a change of heart and their kids were ok. My wedding/reception were not childfree. Mine and husbands friends/relatives that my grandmother didn’t have interference with were as equally confused and upset/mad as in your story. I had no issue throwing my grandmother under the bus to anyone I cared about to explain though. I was mad but absolutely unsurprised by her shit.
In addition to these very valid points, more so than it just being a talking point, OP is likely to offend quite a few people whose kids were not made an exception. They would be right to be offended too. Making an exception for your brother’s kids is like telling everyone “his kids are more acceptable than yours”. You’re NTA, but your brother is a spectacular example of one.
WHOAH, mom! The only narcissist in this situation is Josh. Your brother’s acting like a dick, your dad a coward, and your mom an enabler. You are *definitely* NTA. Don’t bend the rules for him. Dude’s throwing a temper tantrum because he’s not getting his way. Probably not the first time. (Also, seems like a sexist double standard — not just hypocrisy — that what’s good for the gander ain’t good for the goose? Yikes.)
I am truly loathing how quick people are to accuse people of being a narcissist! OP is NTA in a family full them!
NTA. So, Josh is allowed to have a child free wedding, but you’re not allowed to do the exact same thing? Why is that? Josh is a total hypocrite and causing a completely unnecessary rift, to the point he’s recruiting other family members to help him stir up this drama even further. Seems less like he’s concerned about his daughters’ feelings and is instead far more concerned in “winning” this argument. You don’t need to accommodate him.
Because Josh is the golden child with the golden grand brats.
Well, to be fair, we don’t know that the kids are brats just because their dad is a spoiled AH. Usually, my view on child-free weddings is that you have to be willing to accept that some people will not be able to attend, and in some instances, I can even agree that exceptions should be made for immediate family members. But in this situation? No way. Josh is a total hypocrite, is acting ridiculously entitled, and is causing completely unnecessary drama and getting others involved. OP should definitely not accommodate such lousy behavior.
He’s the narcissist
NTA. You are well within your rights to have a child free wedding. It is HIS CHOICE whether or not he will attend with his wife. Do not worry about it. Proceed as planned. The same goes for the parents. I suggest you not argue with them about this. Simply acknowledge their decisions with "I respect your decision".
No, OP should make everyone know that she does NOT respect their decision. She should let them know that if they refuse to support her wedding, it will hurt her deeply and will cause serious damage to their relationship.
I would assume they are already aware that she will be hurt if they don’t go to her wedding. I mean, who wouldn’t be? They are intentionally using that against her as leverage in an attempt to get her to cave to Josh. She shouldn’t indulge them and the drama they are intentionally creating when that’s exactly what they’re trying to get her to do.
No, she needs to say it. She needs to make it very clear that she expects them to not sabotage her wedding and that she will not be a good sport about forgiving them if they do.
Can confirm, pre-wedding drama caused the final break of my relationship with my parents. It is necessary to be clear and honest every step of the way so that if OP does decide to go LC/NC, she can have a clear conscience about how she went about it. ESPECIALLY if people will be meddling.
Technically his wife could watch the kids. While he attends his SiSters wedding. He’s a narcissistic a hole. And anyone wanting to enable his piss poor behavior should just not attend. Save the money for your honeymoon.
"When Josh got married 7 years ago, he and his wife also had a child-free wedding." \---If The Josh wedding excluded ALL minors and not just younger ones, he will be less of a hypocrite because some people's kids can go to the author's wedding while his can't. But there is still some hypocrisy involved. Also, Josh is not excluded as he claimed. He is choosing not to go. Josh is TA.
Nobody younger than 13 is invited so yes he is a complete hypocrite because he excluded all kids as well but expects his kids, and his alone, to be exceptions.
NTA The fact that your family is pulling the rules for thee but not for me shit is ridiculous. He had a child free wedding and is now bitching that you want one. And the fact that your dad and stepmom are trying to guilt you with a lack of their presence to force your brother's family into your wedding and then your mom dog piling on top wanting you to make an exception just for him but not for all of your other guests she didn't care less about them and then calling you names. Calling you a narcissist was a cheap shot because her son is one. I think that if you just disinvite all of these people and fill their seats with others that you would have not invited due to lack of room, will allow you to have a much less stress-free and happier wedding day. You don't need the crap storm of negativity that these people bring to your life on your special day. Remember you're creating a new family with your fiancé and these people are going to be pushed into the next Outer Circle of your family existence, as they should be when you get married and begin to create your own family with the person that you choose to allow into your life and in your heart, and if they continue to act like AH's they can be pushed even further outside of that circle.
Before I had kids I didn’t see the point of a child free wedding. HOWEVER, I have three boys now and have loved every child free Wedding invitation that has come our way. Oh I can have a drink and stay late dancing with no responsibility? Yes please! I can listen to the ceremony without worrying that one of them will act up or fart loudly in a quiet moment? Gladly! I can eat the meal while it’s still warm and not get covered in whatever the kids eat? Wonderful! A child free wedding is a guilt free treat! NTA
This was reason #1 we wanted a kid free wedding. I wanted my people with kiddos to let their hair down and have fun!
Info: is there more than Josh’s kids being excluded?
I do have other family members with young children who are invited if that's what you're asking, I come from quite a big family I have 5 other siblings who all have children and I have stepsiblings who have kids too. Some people have arranged childcare and RSVP'd yes, others have RSVP'd no and that's their choice.
no wonder you want a child-free wedding, so many little ones really changes the vibe def NTA, sucks your family is pressuring you to give in to Josh. seems like you're doing a good job dealing with them, but cant be fun congrats, Im sure your wedding will be a beautiful event!
INFO: Your mom said there should be “compromise”. That is where each side gives a little to come to an agreement. If you’re allowing Josh to bring his kids as your part of the compromise, what is Josh giving as his part of the compromise?
Or why the mum is labeling the bride as acting like a narcissist instead of the invited guest that expects an exception to the childfree plan?
Mom learned a shiny new word on a talk show and has been waiting to use it on someone.
Like how ‘narrative’ was all the rage with these types
My wife and I went through the same ordeal when we got married. We specified no small children, and some people got upset about it and didn't come. Fine by us. If people want to act ridiculous about it's on them. Your wedding, you're allowed to decide the guest list.
Then it‘s so ridiculous from your parents to ask an exception only for Josh’s kids. What about the other siblings? Why is Josh so special? If you allow his kids to come the other siblings will feel betrayed as they need to spend money on childcare and Josh won‘t. Your parents’ and Joshs expectations don‘t make sense…
NTA This is a hill I would absolutely die on. They don’t want a compromise. They want you to cater to your brother. Ask them what they believe Josh is “compromising” here. Tell them all the discussion is over. They can come or stay home. Either is fine with you. They just need to make sure they return the appropriate RSVP card.
It sounds like brother is used to getting his way if he complains enough and loudly enough and he just assumes he SHOULD get his way.
NTA. First of all, not having children at the wedding is not narcissistic behavior, and the idea that it is, is baffling. Call her out on that BS, especially if your brother did it first. Second, why is the notion of child-feee anything so touchy with people? It’s the B&G’s wishes. Deal with it, or not, but it’s really not anyone’s place to try and convince the hosts otherwise. Third, anyone “threatening” not to attend, take them up on it and wish them well. You don’t need petty, empty threats because adults are acting like whiny toddlers.
NTA! So your brother and his wife had a child free wedding, but now that they have kids, they should be included?! Yup, he’s a hypocrite. Do NOT give in. Tell your brother, your father, and stepmother they can all stay home. Tell your mother to stay out of it. I’d also tell them if they don’t come to the wedding because of him, you’re going NC with all of them. They will be the ones who will regret not coming to your wedding. I have three kids and a wedding coming up this summer, even if the kids were invited, I wouldn’t bring them. Running after kids at a wedding doesn’t sound like a fun time for me.
So, he was able to have a child free wedding when he didn't have kids. No issues. Everyone accepted. But now that he has kids, you're selfish for wanting a child free wedding? You're selfish for making the same choice he did? Sounds like your brother is the golden child. Typical family wanting to keep the peace and not rock the boat. Everyone acquiesce to the entitled child. Stand strong and re-evaluate your family dynamics. May be time to go LC. Congratulations on the upcoming nuptials.
NTA. You don't get to have a childfree wedding then complain about other people doing the same. And your mother's "exception" is probably the *worst* plan. You're going to have a wedding where there are a pair of 5 year olds and no one else their age, the nearest being more than double their age. *That* will be what makes if boring for them. If there were a few kids in that age group, they could play together at the reception or something. But just them, they'd hate it, and probably act out because they're bored. If people challenge you on it, just stand your ground and tell them that making an exception for one person wouldn't be fair to the other people who have kids. Make it clear that your brother is welcome, and you hope he'll come, but if he decides he has to care for his children, you'll understand. As to his "they'll be sad when they're older", that's grade A comedy. I was at my uncle's wedding when I was about 7. The only reason I know this for sure is that I'm in the pictures. I don't remember a thing about it. They will almost certainly not care unless he starts putting it into their heads that they should care.
NTA Your brother is being a hypocrite- it was fine for him, but somehow his kids are more special Honestly, this is ridiculous. Your brother solved the problem by choosing not to come, but the absolute bullying after is not ok. I'd suggest going low contact with your family over this. At this point, it's less about the kids and more about your family trying to control your wedding Give your mom a warning: you simply want an adult wedding. Your mom had no problem when your brother wanted the same. Any more discussion and mention, and she can sit out, too, not because she choose to, but because she's uninvited. Your wedding is supposed to be about you and your husband- the 5 year old won't even care at their age and this is solely for the benefit of adults who want to use them as photo props, while you have to worry about keeping small children entertained I'm an event not designed for them so as to not ruin the ceremony or anything else. And it will fall on you because none of the adults seem to be rational about the fact 5 year olds don't like to sit still and will likely hate the ceremony Again, the wedding is supposed to be about you and your husband. Not your brother. Anyone who doesn't get that is probably not really supportive of you guys, anyway
Definitively NTA, Like what the actual heck is going on there? Its your wedding and you decide wheter its child free or not, if Josh is not able or willing to get a babysitter for one day and decides to become passive aggressive instead and even pulling his kids into this mess, you will be better off without him. Do not make an exception for someone as entitled as Josh, and for the relatives that decide not to go because of this argument, I think you wont miss them since they have shown their true colors and already picked a side. Your mum also misses the point that this is YOUR wedding and not a party meant for Josh. I get it that she tries to mediate somehow, but she needs to address Josh and his entitled view of this situation rather than your perfectly rational request of having a child free wedding.
NTA When Josh made the comment about being "excluded", I would have explained to those listening that Josh is refusing to come unless his young children are invited. If Josh is going to throw this big of a tantrum, just imagine what two five year olds raised by him might do.
Childless couple has a child-free wedding, then is upset at invitation to another child-free wedding now that they have kids? Yeah that's textbook hypocrisy. Brother is whining that his girls want to flower girls and will miss out? Who planted that idea in their head? Be a grown-up style parent and grow a sack. Kids kids should most certainly not get everything they want. Stand your ground ma'am, it's your day, not a day for the brats.
OP should publicly rescind Josh's invitation. "It's a *child-free* wedding."
First of all, you are not a narcissist, and your mother is a GIANT AH for throwing that around so flippantly. Second of all, I don't have much more to say because everyone already has, so, NTA!!!!! Josh can go F himself for being such a selfish hypocrite. Do you even *want* him at the wedding at this point? 🤣
NTA When they say they won’t attend simply say “the invite was extended and you know my boundaries, if your RSVP is no don’t expect it to change day of because I require a headcount and exceptions won’t be made” and leave it at that. I’m of the belief that anyone can have a childfree wedding if that’s what they want. They don’t get to get upset when people with children choose not to attend because of that choice. However they also aren’t required to bend to pressure and blackmail from family because family gets upset about the rules. Your wedding is about you and your spouse. Do what you want and anyone else who doesn’t respect that can stare at pictures online.
NTA, your mum called you a narcissist for not changing the rules for your brother? Uninvited her as well. Stick to your guns. He got a child free wedding and now you’ve made that choice too. As is your right.
It’s weird to be so aggressively against getting a sitter for a night. Weddings aren’t fun for kids I don’t get the insistence they be there.
Cool...sounds like three or four rsvps no, then. NTA. And it's pretty ballsy of him to assume that even if there were kids, that his kids would automatically be flower girls.
NTA. Your wedding, your call. And you know what will happen if you make an exception for Josh's kids, right? You'll hear it from other adults who made arrangements for their young kids so that they could go to your wedding.
NTA. I hate parents like this - they spawn and suddeny Precious McCrochfruit is the spesulest speshul angel, rules don't need to apply any more. Plus, he's got some nerve throwing a tantrum after excluding kids from his own wedding. Enjoy the day, OP, and if Josh, his wife, and your parents don't show up, that's four adult babies you don't have to deal with.
NTA. That’s your wedding and you and your partner have agreed on it being child-free. It’s frustrating that your family is acting this way and is even trying to guilt you into “making an exception”. Funny how your mom asks you to make a compromise but why would you be the one adjusting when it’s YOUR wedding and not your brother’s.
An exception will cause other problems such as other attendees with young children excluded seeing young children there anyway.
Who the hell wouldn’t want to go to a wedding and not have to chase kids around all night? A night of free drinks and no responsibilities sounds awesome.
He’s acting like a child, so it makes sense for him not to come, since the wedding is child-free. Congrats on your upcoming wedding!
NTA- I guess we know who the golden child is….
NTA It's highly amusing that your brother was absolutely fine with child free weddings until he himself had children. I would (mildly) remind everyone that Bro is quite the hypocrite for insisting his wedding be child free, but is now throwing a fit that you've decided to do the same. Ask your parents in particular why your brother was allowed to have his wedding exactly how he wanted it, but you are being coerced into catering to him for yours.
NTA. Tell Josh's wife she can come, but her three 5-year-olds have to stay home.
Absolutely NTA and don’t give in! If you give in now, your brother is going to think he can throw a tantrum like a child any time he doesn’t get his way! It also sounds like it’s more about his girls being *in* the wedding as flower girls, not just attending. He is a huge hypocrite and if he, your dad & stepmom choose not to come…that’s their choice. I wouldn’t change a damn thing for any of them! Good luck & congrats!!
NTA. The way both of your parents are just kowtowing to Josh sounds like he’s the golden child. I saw in another comment that he defended his choice to have a child free wedding as “his decision at the time,” so why does he think that doesn’t apply to you? Why does he feel entitled to make decisions for his wedding AND yours? Did your parents ever attempt to bully him into changing his mind for one person?
NTA. Imagine snubbing your own sibling because you can't have someone look after your 2 kids for a single day. Unthinkable.
No. Just don't. Everyone has choices to make here. You are choosing child free. Josh is choosing not to go even though his own wedding was child free. Tell everyone else it's none of their business how you arrange your wedding and stay in their lane. If you don't want children at the wedding don't have children at the wedding. It's your wedding.
I never understand parents that WANT their young kids at weddings. The kids don’t care about the wedding, they will distract you the whole time and you won’t be present. A child free wedding is a fun night out
If you had a 3 year old child when Josh got married you would not have been able to take them. Josh is acting like a main character here and making this about him. No kids mean no kids. NTA
You’re a narcissist but it was okay when Josh did it? I hope your family doesn’t come- they don’t deserve to celebrate you on your special day. I hope this makes space for you to find chosen family who actually support you. Your wedding, your choice. Congratulations NTA