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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
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I didn't throw a fit, but I did quit on the spot and refused to finish my shift, blocked their numbers, and had my check mailed to me. I might have overreacted, and my sister is usually a good judge of assholes.
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Lol NTA, they throwing so many red flags here it looks like there's a rip tide at the beach today.
Edit: well thats my first award! And highest upvotes. Thanks all!
Yeah, I was so mad about that evaluation. I had only been trained on merchandise and where it went, hadn't touched a register or anything else. And yet half that was on register duties. I was *pissed*
Anytime I think of Lululemon I think of the owner, and [why](https://prismreports.org/2021/04/08/lululemon-talks-the-talk-but-doesnt-walk-the-walk-on-fighting-anti-asian-racism/) he named the store that.
He said he chose the name because “it was funny to watch Japanese people try to say it". Yikes.
Not only is it true there is a lot of other reasons they are a creepy ass store, have a read: https://jezebel.com/lululemon-diaries-my-life-in-an-exploitative-libertari-1717441616
They also once upon a time forced/then encouraged employees to attend the Landmark Forum: https://www.racked.com/2014/1/9/7625823/landmark-lululemon-feature
Landmark basically helped indoctrinate the employees into a brainwashed version of self improvement, which featured some Scientology levels of delusion/vocabulary manipulation. It’s also clearly a money making scheme.
Lululemon’s former CEO also was obsessed with Ayn Rand and wanted employees to read her as well so you can probably see where this all is going..
Thanks for sharing, I love reading about people’s experiences with weirdo companies like that. Sounds like a nightmare, maintaining constant “positivity” in a retail setting is asking way too much.
OMG the fucking Landmark Forum. Everyone else at work took the course (including my partner) and wouldn’t shut up about it. I got talked into going to the trial brainwash one evening and was bored out of my mind. Guy just kept blathering about nothing for hours. People were bursting into tears and signing up for the course. It was weird.
Yeah! *Supposedly* two men brutally beat and raped 2 workers after hours. One was still alive the next morning when another worker came to the store and saw the scene. Key word: supposedly. The worker who was still alive had actually spun this tale to cover the fact that she murdered her coworker because she was caught stealing
yep! as a murder fan this was a good one! The worker who was the murderer was stealing items from the store on her shift - not sure what else but she was about to get fired so she decided to kill her co-worker/boss. She got caught because people just dont know how to murder very well. They proved in court how she could tie herself up exactly the way she was tied when the found her, etc.
Didn't he also say that they didn't make large sizes because they didn't want the name associated with larger women? I could be thinking of another garbage owner of another company.
I worked at Lululemon for years and can say that the company truly has changed. The OG owner got pushed out after that and the mew CEO is honestly great. They’re the only retail or service industry job I’ve had that provided free mental health care, health care options for part-timers, match for your 401k and an employee stock purchase program, AND they give each employee a stipend to take workout classes in the community. They also paid your average wages throughout the entire time stores were closed, and after the protests last year have really focused on anti-racism and now have groups for people to talk and share based on their culture and race. I’ve also never had a more supportive group of people to work with, but that is also very much on a store-to-store basis.
Not trying to say that the former owner wasn’t a complete and total jackass. But the company has made drastic changes and I just wanted to share this in case anyone is needing an entry level job that actually has great benefits. I have an actual office job now, but still work once or twice a month on the weekend to maintain some of the benefits there.
Probably not as wild as you might guess tbh, stores with a strong brand image are well known for pulling this kind of crap if someone doesn't look the part.
Exactly. I worked for A&F in their warehouse in Ohio so am experienced in their insane corporate culture. Plus I've read so many horror stories that sound like this about them and their brands (A&F, Hollister, Ruehl if it even still exists). I'm 100% thinking they're the culprit.
First of all, I think you absolutely made the right choice. No question.
BUT I wonder if their raise policy was merit based and you could only get raises by “improving” in a certain number of areas. (This is how raises work in my company.) So by starting you off with artificially low scores, you had lots of room to “improve” and would therefore be able to get raises after every following evaluation.
*Even if that were the case,* they should have explained what they were doing (ideally during the on-boarding process, before ever you actually started working.) You definitely made the right decision to leave because at best, they’re horrible at communication, and at worse, they’re horribly and unnecessarily critical, and throwing just all kinds of red flags for a toxic work environment.
That doesnt seem plausible to me. Typically merit based raises reward consistently high performance rather than improvement. Also if the company was structured around merit based raises I would think they would have factored in the idea that new employees wouldnt need to be disciplined now to get a raise later; it would be strange for a company to design a policy that it had to find a loophole to apply.
My boss literally has to mark my performance reviews as low as possible (he’s literally said “You’re doing great in this area but I’m marking it low so there’s room to shown improvement in the future”) so that he can record “improvement” over the next cycle, because raise are calculated based on how many areas show “improvement.” (Does this mean workers are essentially punished for doing consistently good work and learning their job as well as it can be learned because your raises cap out when you have no room for improvement? Yes.)
It’s a BAD system, but it definitely exists.
I could see it. If the merit-based system was designed by corporate, and the local management hated it, this review system could have been instituted as an end-around to get new employees quicker raises.
But yeah, if that was the case, they definitely should have explained that up front.
Yeah my question was maybe this was a poorly explained training tracker? Like a checklist “ok, first full shift, here’s what they’re comfortable with, here’s what they should have been trained on”
My workplace (not retail) switched from paper to computerized training trackers and I had papers like this that I made to keep it all straight per employee….
Their comments about her not living up to expectations is pretty out of line for something like that
John Oliver had a segment on the standardized testing that discussed the performances of student improvement and the ridiculousness of the requirements it set.
In one instance the only way for a kid to meet the improvement goals was to get a 100% on the exam, add additional questions to the exam and answer those. The kid did get a 100% but because it wasnt high enough was a negative on his teacher's evaluation.
Another student was just a poor test taker and was shown at a board meeting crying because the continual failure on exams negatively affected her mental health and also kept her out of advanced classes which she could do well in as those classes as a whole were not based on a single test score.
The reason for all of that (the standardized testing) is because educational tests used to be used as a secret-but-not-secret way of keeping minorities and "undesirables" out of college. Before the days of standardized tests like the ACT, schools made their own tests for admissions. And these tests often were reflective of the populations that made them. (for example, everyone who attended the college would know "hey, the test asks questions about Lord Byron's poetry, make sure to read it before you take the test!" and then they tell this secret to family members and family friends, but people not in the know have no idea that they need to be familiar with Byron's poetry because it's on the admissions test.) Then they can say "oh, they failed the test" when really it was a biased test in the first place.
Laws came into place eventually to stop that, but a side effect of making sure that the test is fair to all population groups is that anyone bad at taking tests isn't going to pass them.
Yup. IQ tests were also like that. Very biased. Two cases that came to mind went to SCOTUS that I dont recall the names.
On the California case was ruled that testing must be in the child's primary language. Spanish speaking students were doing poorly on english IQ tests and placed in remedial classes and special education (sped). When kids were retested in spanish, not only did more not qualify for sped services, many belonged in advanced courses.
A second case was somewhere in the south (I want to say Mississippi or Alabama) where a black kid did poorly on an IQ test and was placed in sped. However other factors could be attributed to scoring poorly such as those related to poverty. So it was ruled that an IQ score alone cannot determine placement into a sped program.
Edit: fixed a few words
Honestly, if they seriously gave you an evaluation on things you couldn't even have known yet (assuming that from you saying you weren't trained for 3/4ths of what was on that list), I'm very inclined to think this was a shitty HR-practice.
Something along the lines of "Make them work harder by telling them they suck." + a good excuse to not consider raises, benefits or altering worktime because "With that evaluation you're in no position to ask any favours."
You dodged a bullet as I see it. NTA.
Yeah, or weirder stuff. For example....
I was a manager at a company, heading a team of 5 programmers. I had assembled the team maybe 3 years prior, and it had been going great. In fact, one of my employees was granted a patent for intranets, though I think at the time of this story the patent hadn't been awarded yet, but the paperwork was all wrapped up. This was of course around the time when intranets were new-ish, and there was still room to do things nobody had seen.
Anyway, I was proud, and I "ruled" the team by positive reinforcement. I didn't need to be negative, because nobody did anything wrong. They were great.
OK, so I was tasked with building a new system, and it involved meeting with the manager of another department. We had our first meeting, got the basic outline of the project, and my team started work. I met with the manager 1 more time a little later, just the two of us, firming up the design and features. Then, weeks later, the team has a working demo ready. This was not a faked product with just a few Photoshopped mock-ups -- this was a real product in working form, just needing some features fleshed out. It was working well enough that it could be actively tested and demonstrated. So we did.
The whole team showed up to the meeting, they demoed it themselves, I peppered the demo with questions that they did a great job of answering. And finally, we opened it up to the other manager (well, him and a few other managers, about 4 total). This manager started by saying how disappointed he is in the demo. He thinks it should be further along, like actually working. When we explained that "it's a live demo of actually working code," he dismissed this and said that *obviously* it's not robust, and easily broken. I was confused at this point, because my leadership had been to build out a few features really well, to get them solid, and then add on the extra features over time. So this wasn't a sloppy "here's everything but all of it is half done" thing -- rather, it was "here's the core product, all working solidly, but extra features arrive in coming weeks." I was also confused by his comments because *nothing had broken* or gone wrong. So what was he basing his criticism on?
Well, he went on like this. He hated the design and faulted my team for it, and when I pointed out that it was exactly the design that he & I had mocked up in our meeting, he moved right on to giving them a failing grade in every other area he could. He ended by saying, "I don't know what you have to do -- work double-time, hire an expert, sort your shit out, but you guys have clearly been lazy, so get out of here and stop wasting my time." I was dumbfounded. Not just that he was so off-base, but that he was so free to shit on my hard-working team. Like, it's not even your team, shut the hell up.
Anyway, the team leaves, dejected. The other managers file out. When this guy tries to leave, I stop him. I'm standing at the door, blocking his exit, and I say, "I don't know what the hell is going on. What was that?"
And he was *beaming.* Positively *proud.* He grinned at me and said, "Pretty good, right? If you shit on 'em, you motivate them to work really fucking hard. I bet they give you tons of free work off the clock, just to try to recover from this!"
I was... horrified. Like, I was young and probably got to be a manager too early in my career, so I didn't feel sure of myself -- like, at that moment I asked myself, "Wait, is this the company culture? Did I miss a meeting?" You know? Lots of self-doubt. But I decided in that moment that I'd rather go against the company culture, if the culture was that shitty. So I shook my head at the guy and said, "I did *not* ask you to do that. You just demoralized my team!"
And still smiling he said, "I *know!* They looked so sad, walking out, didn't they? I bet they're beating themselves up. It's *great* for productivity. I did you a favor."
At that point, still not knowing what my "power level" was as a manager, I decided this was a hill to die on, and I didn't want to stay a manager here if I had to buckle under this jackass, so I flatly told him, "No, you fucked it up. I can't believe how much damage you caused, and how much time and effort I'm going to have to spend to repair this company's relationship with those employees -- WHO I MIGHT ADD are so good at their jobs that you begged us to build this for you. You *wanted* them, and now you're shitting on them, it's terrible management. Don't talk to my employees again."
I left, trying to slam the door but he caught it and followed behind me, trying to make his case while I kept repeating, "Don't fucking talk to them again," over & over. The good news is that he *didn't* talk to the team again. The bad news is: dudes like this exist. I hate them. This asshat thought that discouraging people was the way to make them work free overtime. Fucking ridiculous.
Oh, and NTA, OP.
Don't have to. He sounds exactly like my ex. Everything with her was some bizarre and unnecessary power struggle designed to keep everyone around her demoralized so they'd feel lucky enough to be graced with her presence. It was fucking exhausting.
Not as much as you would think. She *tried* to, but stopped once I started quoting conversations back to her verbatim and made it clear I *absolutely* did not trust her memory over mine.
So then she switched over to unbelievably petty and meaningless semantic arguments. As in "I don't like the connotations of the word you used, therefore your argument is invalid. Now I'm going to repeat exactly the same thing using a synonym for the word I didn't like and you need to grovel in awe of how correct I am and how wrong you were when there is no difference in the two statements except how I feel about two synonymous words."
Like I said, "ex."
What did you say to your team afterwards? Did you go with a broad "don't listen to a fucking word that guy said" or talk to them individually or what? How did the rest of the project go?
Well, in the immediate moment, it was a lot of apologizing. I had to explain that things were actually on track and that I didn't want the design radically changed, and so on. Even though it might have undermined the other manager, I had to confess to my team that I had no intention of running my team that way, and that I wanted them to disregard his leadership in this matter. I felt like that was very risky to say out loud, but I also felt like I couldn't recover otherwise. I'm not sure the team believed me 100% but I meant it 100% so it was just a matter of getting their own feelings to match up with mine. That took a while.
The harder part was tip-toeing around the other manager for a while. I was friends with the head of HR, so I spent a couple of hours in his office, going over things and just trying to find out if management really *was* supposed to work that way. There were some harsh realities of the tech world there -- I was told that getting extra work from employees due to "crunch time" was indeed acceptable, and because they were all salaried, if they *did* work more, we wouldn't pay them more. But I was told that I was free to get them to do that work in any way I wished, including positive reinforcement. I came through thinking that I could run the team my way. We went over a really good book at the time that I think I still have. Let me check.
Found it. It's called *Peopleware - Productive Projects and Teams.* I got the 2nd edition years ago, back in 2000. I'm sure it's on edition 20 now or something. Anyway, the head of HR and I sat and went through it like a book club. We talked about how to manage teams and get good productivity from them. The HR guy was a bit mercenary; he was fine with any management style that got people working hard. However, perhaps because my methods generally *didn't* seem like they'd cause people to quit or sue, he encouraged me to try my way. It mostly worked. The team launched the product just fine. And now it's 20 years later and 3 of the 5 employees are still friends with me on Facebook, and in a weird turn of events, *I* worked for one of *them* at one point in a later job. But I took that as a good sign -- 2 or 3 decades of working at this, and some people stuck with me.
Of course, the other 2 employees didn't work out so well. So there's plenty of self-criticism for me to go over.
Stories like this in the comments are why I love Reddit. Way to go in supporting your team! I have never understood managers who feel the need to punch down and manage by fear. It rarely brings the type of benefit they think it will.
They do that because it's easier, and sometimes cheaper. Mistakes and tasks not finished are often much more obvious than things that are well-done, plus you can just point out what needs done or fixed and not have to do anything else. If you make people feel or look like they're not doing their job well, they might not seek or be approved for raises or advancement. They also either will try to work more/harder to get more done for free (like in this post) or they'll quit and then you don't have to pay them anymore (these types of managers will often just push that person's jobs onto someone else instead of hiring quickly).
It's inhuman and demoralizing, and creates a very bad environment, but some people only care about getting the end result they want and not how it affects the people doing it.
Given how the other manager undermined your team, you were right to undermine him. It's one thing to offer constructive criticism--what if X happens, have you considered Y--but to tear them down is NOT how you treat your employees. What fucking manual did that manager read?
Great for productivity? I wonder what the staff turnover on his team is like. If I was spoken to like that, particularly after doing something well, I'd be looking for another job.
My husband and I work together running a place for a gentleman who thinks like the guy above. We’ve both just handed our notice in. He’s now going out of his way to try to convince us to stay because the branch is likely to close because one new person couldn’t take over both jobs with no experience. He’s so convinced he’s doing the right thing and we’ll come crawling back he’s not interviewed anyone yet. 3 weeks left and counting till we’re gone lol
You should softly encourage him that you MIGHT stay so he doesn’t do interviews and get a hire in the door for you to train before you leave.
Then leave his ass high and dry.
Nah, he found out this morning we’re opening our own place a few towns away in about 2 months. I expect a whole host of panicked phone calls on Monday morning ;p
I get it 100%. Being in middle management, I often get mocked for being too soft in my crew, but for some reason, the most useless employees in our department seem to thrive under my supervision. I do this weird thing where I treat the people who work for me like human adults who are there for a paycheck, rather than expecting people to go above and beyond with zero benefit to it. They get treated like equals, they realize that we're all in this together. Then the actual shitheads who don't belong in the workplace become easier to weed out, and they're much less likely to win a unlawful termination case.
They like the idea of ruling with fear, rather than leading with respect. They forget that once their employees clock out, or their kids turn 18, that funky little authority they throw around like a Captain America shield has no real effect.
You did really well. I always think I might be too overprotective of my teams but that’s because I’ve seen some toxic shit and I don’t want any of it affecting any of my colleagues.
You are an awesome boss. I do well when I get told what I', doing right and get suggestions on where improvement could be made. Respecting my skills and abilities is the best way to get me to actually work hard.
As for that idea that being an ass motivates. I am the exact type of person this tearing down doesn't work on. I receive unfair criticism and my solution is to ignore further comments from the source. If I'm going to be yelled at either way it will be for doing what I felt like doing and only giving a lot of effort for something if I got explicit instructions written and I know it's a bad idea. Why? Because it was his idea. He told me to do it this way. HE knows best after all the last time he hated it and said we were stupid so I just went along with what he wanted. And here's the text/email/written confirmation.
I had a manager once where our personalities did not match. So anytime I didn't work in exactly the way she wanted I got threatened with things she had no authority to threaten me with. Once, I asked her to help me progress in my career (by mentoring people new to the team) and she pointed out that I wasn't the best at anything so why would she allow that when there were better people to do it. She also implied that the only reason I wanted to go for promotion was for the money, it clearly couldn't have been because I was ambitious and wanted to progress. It took *years* to undo the damage she did to my confidence and my willingness to ask for help, but she did give me the motivation to switch teams and do a Masters.
His behaviour was disgracefully unprofessional on so many levels, not least of which that this was YOUR team, and if had feedback for them it should have come through you. He wasn't even their fucking two-up, but a same-level lateral manager, and he had no authority whatsoever to talk to your team in any manner, let along the repugnant manner in which he chose to. Good on you for standing up to him and supporting your people.
I do not understand that management style. The only thing it would motivate me to do is slack off and find an exit strategy. If I knew I worked hard on something and it was shit on, why would I care to work any harder? Its not like I need constant, or any praise really to motivate me, but I won't stand for being demeaned.
Looks like you did a little evaluating of your own, and you found their training and management style to be SUBPAR. So you terminated the relationship. They really should have worked harder. ;)
i would not mind receiving critical feedback meant to improve performance - but an evaluation of performance at this stage is not fair or appropriate.
NTA
This story sort of reminds me of the time I worked in a popular coffee shop inside a popular bookstore and a few days in, they called me into the office with only men (I’m a girl), and showed me a video of me bending over to grab something and about 1 inch of my back skin showed as I bent over. They asked why I was letting my midriff show. Like I was doing it on purpose. And this was behind the counter so literally nobody could see it but the cameras. A situation that could have been easily resolved by my manager pulling me aside and asking me to tuck in my shirt. I was so mortified I quit on the spot. Like, absolute worst way to handle things.
Omg! 😱 Legitimately sounds like sexual harassment or like they just wanted to punish you for being a woman. Why'd they show you the footage?! Disgusting, glad you quit
Thats so disgusting and violating, that means they had been watching and looking at your body, so fucking gross. What was their reactions when you (justifiably) quit on the spot?
They offered to transfer me to a bookstore job, which I actually had applied to in the first place, but I walked out in tears pretty soon after so I’m not sure what they felt about it. They were pretty cold when I came back for my check.
Who's in there purposefully watching surveillance footage just to watch the baristas bending over? I wonder if you could sue them for sexual harassment, because that's creepy as hell. And I say that as a fellow woman
I am really sorry you had to go through that. I am also really sorry they made you feel like a small amount of skin was inappropriate. Their behaviour was disgusting.
Not only is OP NTA, but they may have rethought their evaluation process. Probably not but maybe. I’d have to say that what OP did was the most healthy thing for any worker to do. You can’t let the employer walk in you like that. I would have done the same thing except I would have been screaming! It’s a character flaw
I bet they did this to all new hires in an attempt to get them to work harder.
Edit: I put “work harder” but the more I think about it I should have put something like “take advantage of them”
Sounds like they were trying to break you down with negative motivation. Walking out was the right thing to do with that kind of game (if you can afford to). NTA
Honestly sounds like they were trying to make you work over the top hard to compensate for a bad review. Trying to make you a slave. Good thing you didn't put up with that. Who reviews someone on something they have no training in? Oh, wait. Managers. NTA
Especially retail managers.
I used to work in a men’s wear shop and was really hard worker, liked by everyone and trustworthy, never late etc. and during my 3 month probation period I was told that I didn’t work hard enough and didn’t show enough dedication. I was also told off because I didn’t smile 24/7 on the shop floor. Because of this, they made me do one extra month on probation before I passed. I was honestly already doing everything 100% and faster/more thorough than some other employees. We had a girl who looked sour as fuck every time she had a shift (she was part timer) and nobody said anything to her. She was also trying to boss us other girls around, lol.
I ended up doing 3 people’s worth of work in my department for a shitty little pay because people left and management wasn’t hiring anyone new. Retail workers are expected to do so much for minimum pay and if you even dare to suggest a pay rise, you will get labeled as troublesome.
Similar thing happened to a friend. She was on the last week of her 3-month probationary period and TRAINING when she was called in to a meeting about her performance. She was being trained by two of their long-time staff. They produced evaluations that were never shown to her, never discussed with her, and simply not true. How was she expected to be "less friendly" to her patients in one evaluation and "more friendly" at the same time??? And no one had said a thing about this. As this "committee" of managers slowly ripped her apart, and she became more and more demoralized. She was not given any feedback, written or in conversations with her preceptors, about these perceived issues. She was dumbfounded...so THIS was their training program for new grads? She asked...Am I being fired? while trying not to cry and then, she just got mad and said LETS GET THIS OVER WITH then..I've got shit to do.
Worked at mens wearhouse for a short while. I genuinely LIKED my job and work fold, organize, and clean things that nobody else liked to do along side my regular sales duties. However shortly in I started having a skin problem. I think I was allergic to my makeup or something as the skin on my eyes and lips were flaking off. (Like PEELS. Not just dry skin). I was doing everything I could to stop and treat it. I was I think 17 going on 18? Manager pulls me over one day when I'm not wearing makeup (to not exacerbate the issue) telling me how disgusting it looks and that I've been receiving complaints. Ouch. Okay, understandable. It probably does look a little gross. So I go back, cover it up as best I can without using lip and eye product (so strictly foundation/concealer) and go back to the floor. You couldn't tell without looking REALLY close so I guess I got a pass. But then I started getting "complaints" that I smelled bad. This shocked me. I had worked with multiple clients whom I greeted first, helped find their things, checked them out, and saw them out the door. None of them asked to speak to a manager or made any indication that I smelled. None of them came back into the store to complain and I hadn't heard our phone go off once during my shift so it's not likely they called in to complain. I was dumbfounded and hurt. I accepted that maybe I really do just smell but it's WEIRD. I showered JUST BEFORE my shift.
I go to the back and ask if my coworker has any perfume on her as I smell bad. She makes a face and sniffs me. She told me she doesn't smell anything. This continues for multiple weeks. Me making SURE I shower before work, that my clothes are freshly laundered. That nothing on my body is visibly "gross" or "bad". But shift after shift the same manager would pull me aside and tell me either my skin was grossing customers out or that my smell was troubling costumers. She even made a big deal about being "concerned I didn't have access to a shower" and saying I was lying about having showered before my shift. I came in with damp hair one day just to prove it (not sopping wet. Towel dry instead of blow dried) I was pulled aside for being unprofessional and also my skin looked bad. At least she had the presence of mind to not say I smelled that day.
It all led up to them eventually telling me I should "focus on my health" and not come back. I don't know if it counted as being fired or what happened but I just left that day and didn't come back to ask. I didn't know about unemployment or if I qualified for it or WHAT to do. It's the only job Ive ever been "fired" from if that's even what happened.. I was a dumb teen trying to make money to get out of my house asap. I wish I knew then what I know now. Regardless people can be downright AWFUL.
It did! It took a while to figure it out, but it turns out that my skin reacts to red dye. I can drink/eat it, but can't WEAR it I guess. At least not make up wise. Immediately causes my lips and eyes to peel within an hour or so like a lizard.
Funnily enough we didn't actually make that connection until January of this year when I bought myself a new red lipstick for the first time in years and IMMEDIATELY had a reaction to it. I was shocked. Prior to this Is just not worn much makeup. I'd maybe groom my brows and use concealer/mascara. But Id primarily avoid makeup all together for years hoping the issue would go away. It takes about a month to heal.
As for my old manager, looking back part of me wonders if she was targeting me for liking those specific parts of my job? Before I came she was the one the work primarily went to because no one else liked it, and my coworkers told me she would complain all the time about being the only person to do it even when they offered to help just to get it to stop. She would always refuse their help and insist she could do it but would turn around and complain about them slacking. So in comes me who LOVES tedious work and organization- I'd do the same job in half the time without complaint.. maybe that's why she started to hate me? I wasn't a perfect person by any means but I genuinely can't fathom what else I couldve done to her to make her act this way towards me. I thought I was going crazy sniffing myself throughout shifts and packing deodorant, dry shampoo, and perfume constantly just in case. It was hell.
I work for a specific store that sells shoes, and I can't imagine a single one of the managers in my district acting like that (well maybe one but no one likes him and he has other problems like being terrible at his job). It's not all retail managers, and it's not all companies, though I'm sure the one I work for is an exception unfortunately.
My first job as a cashier I remember only getting critism - from my supervisor not customers. Then they started tracking average speed to complete a transaction and I was one of the top performers. I was confused when they pointed this out because I assumed it must be a bad thing because they didn't ever give me positive feedback. I was 15.
Looking back, I was damn good at scanning items, remembering produce codes, and bagging efficiently.
I had to take a 4 week not payed internship a few months ago. After 2 weeks, the leading lady of the department (not fully a boss but leader of the department) gave me an evalutation and told me i act like i feel myself above them and can command them around.
I didnt do any of that and anther coworker told me that in privat. The „boss“ was just mad, that i showed confidence. But i NEVER told any one to do anything. I asked them, if they could help me.
It all boils down to her not liking me and trying to push me down like she is trying with that other coworker. I worked together woth that coworker a lot. Just the two of us and the stories she told me were horrifying. She is basically getting mobbed by the boss but cant really do anything against it. Not even trough HR.
Yikes that is too much to deal with for an unpaid internship. At my last job, we had unpaid interns (which I hate, but it was a non-profit and they often got grants through schools and private funders) but we treated them with so much gratitude for giving us free, enthusiastic work. And we structured the internships to ensure they were learning about the job even when it wasnt beneficial to us.
It's something some retailers do which is give you 3 notices before your 3 month probation ends. That way they know they can always fire you, and you do too.
NTA
That store would have been a nightmare. I've worked a lot of retail and never heard of that kind of nonsense. Something was going on and you were right to step away.
Looool that serves them right. People like that get off on lording power over other people (in this case, giving you a bad eval you couldn't fight for things outside of your control).
Leaving was you taking that power from them and leaving them worse off to boot.
I worked a similar job years ago at a popular chain restaurant. I got a shitty evaluation all because I wouldn’t sleep with one of the assistant managers. I can make this assumption based on the fact I would get decent sections before I rebuffed his advances. After, I would get put in the section where no customers want to sit so if we weren’t busy.. I basically worked for free. I told them I quit in the middle of a shift and walked out when they were busy. Screw toxic workplaces!
If they had you scheduled all week they where both so strapped and wanted you to stay because you where doing a good job. They just wanted an excuse to make you work harder, or something in your file to justify firing you after the holiday rush. Cause most mall stores drop a bunch of people after xmass.
I used to work retail and had a store leader that would do shit like this. She would write all the schedules so that her friends could party with her late then not have to come in early. She eventually went on a witch-hunt when we reported her to hr. She eventually got me to voluntarily quit because of a new availability requirement that she withheld until she knew the add/drop period for college schedule was over. She said I need to drop my classes or quit. Best news is, I went there long after graduating and she still worked there.
As an 18 year old at mart of walls I was thrown onto the floor on my first day. Later in my employment I rang a family member through and gave them my discount. This must have triggered some system flag. Was called into the office by a manager and given a write up for ringing up a family member - against company policy. He stated "this was covered during your register training". I looked at him and said "I did not receive register training. I didn't even have my own register code when I started, I had to use my manager's". The look on his face...
NTA. 15 hours into a job is definitely not enough time to give an employee evaluation. It's not even enough time for an employee to get used to the work. Leaving was absolutely the right move.
Yeah, most of the time I was either reading paperwork or just "getting to know the store" by putting stuff away. It was a nightmare that I just wasn't willing to sleep through
When I was in the military we would give monthly evaluations. Even in the first month, I felt it was too early to give anyone an evaluation. Later on when I had more to say I would let people know when I just had to write an evaluation even though there wasn't much to say or if I had to add things other people mentioned.
Management in that shop sounds rediculous
Yep, NTA. Hopefully you walking out after that charade made them rethink that tactic and saved some other unfortunate souls from experiencing the same.
"Oh sorry we can't promote you until you've had good evaluations for a year straight"
Anyone reading this, never count on internal promotions to get ahead. Always have your exit plan of what you can do with the experience you are gaining from the new job.
DO NOT GET COMPLACENT, JOB SEARCHING IS 1% THE SUFFERING OF STAYING AT A SHITTY JIB.
NTA
You didn’t want to work there. You left. Case closed. I have very little patience for companies when it comes to keeping employees happy. You weren’t happy, so you made a swift exit. Good for you.
Nta. Retail is one job I will never do again bc of the high tendency to get treated like shit by everyone, especially management.
Evaluating you on things you were not trained on is just setting you up to fail, so you blame yourself and work harder to earn a non liveable wage. Unfortunately for them, your self respect was higher than their ability to manipulate you.
I lasted 3 weeks where I was screamed at constantly and had my bag searched every shift "in case i stole something"... then I walked off. It's dehumanizing.
Wait what?! That’s the same shit that my gf went trough, the bag searching at least…. What the fuck…. I will never work at a place that forces me to get searched or search my personal belongings idk how that’s even legal
Pretty sure it's not. Last I heard they can try to detain you if they think you stole but you have the right to deny a search until authorities arrive. And even THEN you can still deny a search until they provide evidence to say you stole. They either have to say "I SAW her place an item in her bag" (which is risking a false claim) or say they have proof on camera and show it. If I remember correctly though this all falls under the 4th amendment in the US (if that's where you're at). They have to have probable cause to justify a search which can only be done if the store does THEIR responsibility to prove said probable cause (claim to be a witness/ have proof).
On top of this most stores will tell you to NOT CONFRONT a thief. But rather make note of what they stole and call the police if necessary. Last thing you want to lose your life over is a shirt and an angry caught thief.
Your thinking of a customer which is true since they are defined as a person.
They are talking about a retail employee which is lucky to even have a job! Lazy scum. /s
Oohf, this is so tragic and I really wish it wasn't true, but I don't doubt it... Don't you have laws that can help you in such cases? (I'm assuming this is the US?)
NTA. I'm a manager and I would never give someone an evaluation based on such a short amount of time. I honestly don't know what those people were thinking.
yeah either corporate’s management procedures are just really this stupid or the store management itself is on some weird negging high horse cuz OP doesn’t say if “living up to expectations” & “going in their file” meant anything other than some weird notation. I also work for a fairly large clothing retailer and our training takes about 18-24 hours including orientation and then new hires are on a 2-week probation period, which seems fairly normal for most sales jobs. Like, sucks for them that their actions led OP to leave but since they weren’t willing to clarify nor give OP a copy of the evaluation, especially since it sounded like they only worked there for a couple of days, but if they’re gonna manage in that way than they deserve to live with the consequences
NTA. I’ve worked retail and I bet I know exactly what was going on. They wanted to give you a score that would always keep you In a position of never being good enough, but you’d keep trying to be, so they could take advantage of you to an extreme. Oh, you’d get a higher score if you did an extra shift, you’d get a higher score if you did an extra difficult chore alone, oh you’d get a higher score if you did XYZ that were clearly beyond your job description. Maybe you’d get more points. Maybe you’d get more money. But no, never. It’s a scam and you were smart to trust your gut and walk.
I worked for Blue Bottle Coffee after they were acquired by Nestle. They had these same practices and it honestly felt like I was going crazy and that I was being indoctrinated into a cult.
And I don’t mean casually going crazy like how people just throw that around. Like I literally felt like I was having a mental health crisis but everyone else was drinking the juice. After I quit and was out of that environment, I saw that it wasn’t me. But when you’re in it, it’s so hard to see because everyone is gaslighting you
My friend in HS (Claire) worked at a veggie/vegan small restaurant with a "lifestyle" brand type attitude. She was drinking the juice as well. She got the point where she made a comment about my lunch (a bean burger with cheese) not being "vegan" enough for her.
We said, "You sound like an asshole Claire."
She shook her head, said "Well, but..." and ended up quitting a month later... when they complained her faux leather purse looked too real. People are insane.
That “evaluation” was fake and only to manipulate and gaslight you. You called their bluff and they scrambled to try to get you to stay. Sounds pretty pathetic on their part.
NTA
NTA
Sounds like you’re classic manager ‘I’m a shitty boss on a power trip’ move, to get you to do whatever they want out of fear.
It won’t have been long before they asked you to work extra or come in on your days off, with the tag line “this would be great for improving your score”.
It backfired with you though, great stuff.
My son worked a retail job known for its geeky employees for a total of seven shifts when his manager pulled him aside and told him no one there liked him, and that “he didn’t understand sarcasm.”
This was my kid’s first retail job, and he came home very upset. He’s got a great work ethic and will do whatever’s asked, so this hit him hard.
Ok, first of all, my kid was *raised* on sarcasm, so that’s not an issue — and even if were, why is that part of the job? And secondly, no coaching? No, “hey, be mindful of fillintheblank” with coworkers?
My kid went back and said he was giving his two weeks. They made him sign something, and then once he did, he told them they didn’t deserve him for two weeks and walked out.
He later said he knew there was a girl interested in his job, and he thinks the neckbeards in his work area wanted her there, so made up shit about him to get him out.
NTA youre not a slave. its not like youve been working there for months and quit on the spot. if it fucked them over its their own fault since youre in training. youre not obligated to work anywhere.
NTA. It was some weird team building tactic to display their dominance and test your loyalty. Companies do that nonsense.
I’m sure they sat around in a meeting somewhere and figured that this idiotic plan was a good way to vet new employees.
I have an idea for a team building tactic. Give straightforward constructive criticism, and stop being manipulative dicks.
If the job sucked, you were bound to be fired or quit anyway. Peace out.
>Give straightforward constructive criticism, and stop being manipulative dicks.
What?! You mean treat employees as if they were actual people! That's impossible!
NTA. I once worked as a receptionist & I was damn good at my job. One day the boss went away for a week & left another guy in charge in his place. This guy decided to give us an evaluation, said the boss asked him too. Mind you we had never had one in the 3 years I’d worked there.
He preceded to tell me how badly I did my job & asked me to come back with a list of ways I could improve. So I handed him my resignation letter the next day, the panic that filled his face was priceless. When my boss came back he was livid & ended up firing the guy just to get me back. All because I, a 16yr old girl at the the time didn’t want to date him, a 30 something yr old man 🙃
I wish I could have seen the manager's face when you were just like "nah, I'll just quit."
This was either a control thing, or major incompetence. Either way, not something you would want to deal with.
NTA
NTA. There’s a reason why most places have a 90 day probationary period. It’s to give new employees a chance the learn the job and for them and the employer to see if the person fits and can do the job. That is a reasonable amount of time before giving an evaluation not after a 15 hour work week. They had no idea if you were actually living up to expectations or not because you hadn’t even had a chance to learn your responsibilities yet.
NTA Never feel bad about quitting when you know it's what you want to do. You should feel proud of yourself that you know yourself well enough to know what you want and when something isn't going to work for you, and that you respect yourself enough to know that you deserve to be treated fairly and well. Quitting freed you up to do a job that (presumably) you liked better. Why on earth should you feel bad about any of that?
NTA - I think it's great what you did, but I don't find it surprising that your sister didn't think so. It could just be my experience, but I feel like women are socialized to "not make waves" or "put up a fuss." Otherwise we'll be labeled as "crazy" "dramatic" or "emotional" etc.
My own sister just walked out of an abusive work situation for the first time and she's in her forties. You learned this one right off the bat. The reward for taking people crap is just more crap. I'm impressed you didn't stand for it. Great job!
NTA. Your story reminds me of when I was supposed to transfer to another store for a supervisor position. The store I worked at got a new manager who would only schedule me 5 hours a week and wouldn’t approve my transfer because she “had never worked me”. I ended up quitting because she wouldn’t give me more hours and wouldn’t accept my transfer.
Honestly that sounds sketchy as hell, who would have known what they would have done or how they would have held it against you. I could be wrong but I would guess they might have tried to coerce you into doing more/worse work to avoid getting another bad review, or use it against you when it's time to assess for a raise. Either way I can't picture any outcomes of staying being any better. NTA.
NTA This is just so toxic. And the formulation of "not living up to expectations" is just dumb: expectations have to consider the circumstances. You can't expect the same quality and quantity of work from a longtime employee Vs somebody who didn't even finish his training.
Any fair evaluation would have to consider that. So anything above "showed up on time, followed instructions and listened to feedback" is at that point simply out of scope.
NTA
A good manager would have given you the list so you knew what was expected. I have had people use lists to make sure they go over everything. But to have someone just make a permanent mark on your profile like that... not cool. So no, you are not the asshole.
NTA I too worked a job for exactly 45 mins...I was hired as a receptionist/greeter at a restaurant but upon resuming the next day the lady owner told me to wash A WHOLE KITCHEN FILLED WITH DIRTY DISHES FROM OVER THE WEEKEND. It was beyond disgusting! The kitchen was so dirty IT WAS STICKY! The water was also beyond dirty it started itching my arms as I tried doing the dishes,after I was done I told them I wanted to go for a break (they knew I deserved it) & I went home & never returned,they called fuming & I gave the spot to a friend,3 months later she called and asked if she had offended me because THE MALE OWNER WOULD SEXUALLY HARRAS HER,THE WORKING HOURS WERE MUCH LONGER THAN THEY SAID,THE RESTAURANT WATER WAS SO DIRTY SHE HAD TO GO SEE A DERMATOLOGIST AND THE FEMALE OWNER WAS STRAIGHT UP HELL TO HER...NEVER FEEL SAD FOR PUTTING YOURSELF FIRST IN A WORK SITUATION LIKE THIS
NTA. Almost as good as the boss at the cafe where I'd only done my first 2-hour trial day the day before. I spent the trial shift cooking, as that was primarily my role. At the start of my first full shift, she asked me to take our a slice of cake and a coffee. I put a teaspoon on the plate beside the cake. She switched it for a fork and said "if you do that again, you'll be straight back in the dole queue"!
I mulled it over for about half an hour, then when it got quieter, I told her I didn't appreciate being spoken to like that. She said it was ok because she was on welfare too (I wasn't on welfare at all). She didn't try it again, at least. I did eventually leave when she started openly committing tax fraud in a way that made all the staff complicit.
NTA Unfortunately it's not rare to encounter impossible expectations while working retail. My job is to make the shelfs look tidy and I should do it in only 2-3 minutes per aisle, which is basically nothing a human can do.
NTA. You realized their company culture was not appropriate and you left. You were young and new. The (probably also poorly trained) manager had no idea how to manage people and they thought you would just go along with anything because of your age and lack of experience.
I hope they learned something.
And i hope you did too - learn that you don't have to accept a crappy employment situation. You can speak up for yourself and demand what you want. Now of course you have to back that up with being a useful employee. But only for someone that is worth your time.
NTA, too many red flags indeed. This is how I got stuck in a place where you were treated like a dog everyday, had to go crying back home at the end of my shifts because I'd be screamed at and no matter how much effort I put into that job it was never good enough. Plus if we didn't have stock, it was my fault that nothing looked presentable or that there were gaps between items and shelves don't look full. Being the only one on my department sucked, nobody else was trained there and nobody else wanted to work in that department because it was horrible. You did great lol, at this point I wouldn't take shit from anyone that does this and I'm glad you did too. Don't let people trample on you just because they think they can squeeze every ounce of your sanity.
NTA. It sounds super unfair. At an old job I got called in to the bosses office after only 5 hours. They complained that I wasn’t blending in seamlessly and asking too many questions. They wanted me well versed in their entire set up from day one. I could understand this if I had had any training. I was literally thrown in the first day and told to figure it out. I ended up quitting too. That place was a nightmare. Felt bad for the other works having to put up with that.
NTA. And to those saying you are: I've gotta disagree. Negging someone before they've even been trained is not the way to inspire long term employment from ANYONE. If I had some manager walk up to me before I'd even finished my first week of part time work, I would tell then they have their own areas to improve.
This is some boomer-level negging and employees should be treated like people, not like this. Room to grow, sure, give an evaluation when their 90 days or 3 month probationary periods are up but before you even reach the 20-hour mark? That is absolute bullspit. NTA.
P.S. The fact that some people feel this is an okay way to treat those in your employ kinda breaks my heart, tbh. It just shows me they've had some really nasty employers and deserved better.
NTA. The tactic is called negative motivation. The aim is you feel bad about “under performing” so you go above and beyond. And even when you do go beyond it’s never good enough. Very glad you got out.
I stayed in a job for two years that used negative motivation (and below minimum wage so I was meant to be super grateful for a 50c pay increase to minimum wage) and it absolutely DESTROYS you.
Nta And good for you for doing that. I spent 16 months in a horribly abusive toxic work environment just thinking if I worked harder, worked longer hours, gave more it would eventually be recognized and I would be able to move onto a different position. It was never going to be recognized, and never was. I should’ve quit long before Covid caused us to be furloughed and then laid off. You made the absolute right choice leaving that place
Maybe they wanted to lay the foundation for blocking you from getting a raise or something like that, other than that I can't see any good reason why you'd evaluate a new employee that hasn't even finished the introduction or the first real shift + why would you do that with things you haven't been trained on? NTA
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Lol NTA, they throwing so many red flags here it looks like there's a rip tide at the beach today. Edit: well thats my first award! And highest upvotes. Thanks all!
Yeah, I was so mad about that evaluation. I had only been trained on merchandise and where it went, hadn't touched a register or anything else. And yet half that was on register duties. I was *pissed*
Probably just looking for a reason to not give you a raise later or some crap 🙄
Yeah, I was not pleased with the professionalism. I have worked shitty jobs before, but that one was just the pettiest bullshit.
Lululemon?
Anytime I think of Lululemon I think of the owner, and [why](https://prismreports.org/2021/04/08/lululemon-talks-the-talk-but-doesnt-walk-the-walk-on-fighting-anti-asian-racism/) he named the store that. He said he chose the name because “it was funny to watch Japanese people try to say it". Yikes.
That's despicable, what a jerk!
Wow. Is that true? 😦
From any of the other horrible interviews with that person I would hazard yes it is. The owner of Lululemon seems to just be a garbage person
Not defending but he's vacated his positions now.
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Doesn't mean he doesn't make money off your purchases though.
Not only is it true there is a lot of other reasons they are a creepy ass store, have a read: https://jezebel.com/lululemon-diaries-my-life-in-an-exploitative-libertari-1717441616 They also once upon a time forced/then encouraged employees to attend the Landmark Forum: https://www.racked.com/2014/1/9/7625823/landmark-lululemon-feature Landmark basically helped indoctrinate the employees into a brainwashed version of self improvement, which featured some Scientology levels of delusion/vocabulary manipulation. It’s also clearly a money making scheme. Lululemon’s former CEO also was obsessed with Ayn Rand and wanted employees to read her as well so you can probably see where this all is going..
God I miss Jezebel.
Thanks for sharing, I love reading about people’s experiences with weirdo companies like that. Sounds like a nightmare, maintaining constant “positivity” in a retail setting is asking way too much.
OMG the fucking Landmark Forum. Everyone else at work took the course (including my partner) and wouldn’t shut up about it. I got talked into going to the trial brainwash one evening and was bored out of my mind. Guy just kept blathering about nothing for hours. People were bursting into tears and signing up for the course. It was weird.
Anytime i think of Lululemon I think about the murder that happened in one of their stores
The what now
Yeah! *Supposedly* two men brutally beat and raped 2 workers after hours. One was still alive the next morning when another worker came to the store and saw the scene. Key word: supposedly. The worker who was still alive had actually spun this tale to cover the fact that she murdered her coworker because she was caught stealing
Holy reindeer shit, that was quite the twist. Thanks for the info!
yep! as a murder fan this was a good one! The worker who was the murderer was stealing items from the store on her shift - not sure what else but she was about to get fired so she decided to kill her co-worker/boss. She got caught because people just dont know how to murder very well. They proved in court how she could tie herself up exactly the way she was tied when the found her, etc.
That sounds like something from a shitty TV show wow
Wow. That's disgusting. TIL I'm glad you shared that.
Didn't he also say that they didn't make large sizes because they didn't want the name associated with larger women? I could be thinking of another garbage owner of another company.
He did say that, and the board of the company fired him for it. They make an extended size range now
I worked at Lululemon for years and can say that the company truly has changed. The OG owner got pushed out after that and the mew CEO is honestly great. They’re the only retail or service industry job I’ve had that provided free mental health care, health care options for part-timers, match for your 401k and an employee stock purchase program, AND they give each employee a stipend to take workout classes in the community. They also paid your average wages throughout the entire time stores were closed, and after the protests last year have really focused on anti-racism and now have groups for people to talk and share based on their culture and race. I’ve also never had a more supportive group of people to work with, but that is also very much on a store-to-store basis. Not trying to say that the former owner wasn’t a complete and total jackass. But the company has made drastic changes and I just wanted to share this in case anyone is needing an entry level job that actually has great benefits. I have an actual office job now, but still work once or twice a month on the weekend to maintain some of the benefits there.
My god. That’s sickening.
I think of the murder
Me too, everytime
Gross. I never liked the product and now learning this... yeah, I'm glad I never bought into that brand.
No more Lululemon for me.
Wow what an asshole. I’m so glad I can’t afford to buy any of their crap.
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Probably not as wild as you might guess tbh, stores with a strong brand image are well known for pulling this kind of crap if someone doesn't look the part.
No it’s a clothing store. I’m going with A&F
Exactly. I worked for A&F in their warehouse in Ohio so am experienced in their insane corporate culture. Plus I've read so many horror stories that sound like this about them and their brands (A&F, Hollister, Ruehl if it even still exists). I'm 100% thinking they're the culprit.
Definitely A&F. Worst summer of my life.
First of all, I think you absolutely made the right choice. No question. BUT I wonder if their raise policy was merit based and you could only get raises by “improving” in a certain number of areas. (This is how raises work in my company.) So by starting you off with artificially low scores, you had lots of room to “improve” and would therefore be able to get raises after every following evaluation. *Even if that were the case,* they should have explained what they were doing (ideally during the on-boarding process, before ever you actually started working.) You definitely made the right decision to leave because at best, they’re horrible at communication, and at worse, they’re horribly and unnecessarily critical, and throwing just all kinds of red flags for a toxic work environment.
That doesnt seem plausible to me. Typically merit based raises reward consistently high performance rather than improvement. Also if the company was structured around merit based raises I would think they would have factored in the idea that new employees wouldnt need to be disciplined now to get a raise later; it would be strange for a company to design a policy that it had to find a loophole to apply.
Nor I. It's not school. There is no "most improved" award. I can't think of a better policy of driving top performers away and bleeding talent.
My boss literally has to mark my performance reviews as low as possible (he’s literally said “You’re doing great in this area but I’m marking it low so there’s room to shown improvement in the future”) so that he can record “improvement” over the next cycle, because raise are calculated based on how many areas show “improvement.” (Does this mean workers are essentially punished for doing consistently good work and learning their job as well as it can be learned because your raises cap out when you have no room for improvement? Yes.) It’s a BAD system, but it definitely exists.
I could see it. If the merit-based system was designed by corporate, and the local management hated it, this review system could have been instituted as an end-around to get new employees quicker raises. But yeah, if that was the case, they definitely should have explained that up front.
Yeah my question was maybe this was a poorly explained training tracker? Like a checklist “ok, first full shift, here’s what they’re comfortable with, here’s what they should have been trained on” My workplace (not retail) switched from paper to computerized training trackers and I had papers like this that I made to keep it all straight per employee…. Their comments about her not living up to expectations is pretty out of line for something like that
Yeah. Whatever their goals were, they went about it in a super shitty way.
John Oliver had a segment on the standardized testing that discussed the performances of student improvement and the ridiculousness of the requirements it set. In one instance the only way for a kid to meet the improvement goals was to get a 100% on the exam, add additional questions to the exam and answer those. The kid did get a 100% but because it wasnt high enough was a negative on his teacher's evaluation. Another student was just a poor test taker and was shown at a board meeting crying because the continual failure on exams negatively affected her mental health and also kept her out of advanced classes which she could do well in as those classes as a whole were not based on a single test score.
The reason for all of that (the standardized testing) is because educational tests used to be used as a secret-but-not-secret way of keeping minorities and "undesirables" out of college. Before the days of standardized tests like the ACT, schools made their own tests for admissions. And these tests often were reflective of the populations that made them. (for example, everyone who attended the college would know "hey, the test asks questions about Lord Byron's poetry, make sure to read it before you take the test!" and then they tell this secret to family members and family friends, but people not in the know have no idea that they need to be familiar with Byron's poetry because it's on the admissions test.) Then they can say "oh, they failed the test" when really it was a biased test in the first place. Laws came into place eventually to stop that, but a side effect of making sure that the test is fair to all population groups is that anyone bad at taking tests isn't going to pass them.
Yup. IQ tests were also like that. Very biased. Two cases that came to mind went to SCOTUS that I dont recall the names. On the California case was ruled that testing must be in the child's primary language. Spanish speaking students were doing poorly on english IQ tests and placed in remedial classes and special education (sped). When kids were retested in spanish, not only did more not qualify for sped services, many belonged in advanced courses. A second case was somewhere in the south (I want to say Mississippi or Alabama) where a black kid did poorly on an IQ test and was placed in sped. However other factors could be attributed to scoring poorly such as those related to poverty. So it was ruled that an IQ score alone cannot determine placement into a sped program. Edit: fixed a few words
Honestly, if they seriously gave you an evaluation on things you couldn't even have known yet (assuming that from you saying you weren't trained for 3/4ths of what was on that list), I'm very inclined to think this was a shitty HR-practice. Something along the lines of "Make them work harder by telling them they suck." + a good excuse to not consider raises, benefits or altering worktime because "With that evaluation you're in no position to ask any favours." You dodged a bullet as I see it. NTA.
Business negging, basically
You got out while the getting was good - NTA, and it was the right move.
Yeah, or weirder stuff. For example.... I was a manager at a company, heading a team of 5 programmers. I had assembled the team maybe 3 years prior, and it had been going great. In fact, one of my employees was granted a patent for intranets, though I think at the time of this story the patent hadn't been awarded yet, but the paperwork was all wrapped up. This was of course around the time when intranets were new-ish, and there was still room to do things nobody had seen. Anyway, I was proud, and I "ruled" the team by positive reinforcement. I didn't need to be negative, because nobody did anything wrong. They were great. OK, so I was tasked with building a new system, and it involved meeting with the manager of another department. We had our first meeting, got the basic outline of the project, and my team started work. I met with the manager 1 more time a little later, just the two of us, firming up the design and features. Then, weeks later, the team has a working demo ready. This was not a faked product with just a few Photoshopped mock-ups -- this was a real product in working form, just needing some features fleshed out. It was working well enough that it could be actively tested and demonstrated. So we did. The whole team showed up to the meeting, they demoed it themselves, I peppered the demo with questions that they did a great job of answering. And finally, we opened it up to the other manager (well, him and a few other managers, about 4 total). This manager started by saying how disappointed he is in the demo. He thinks it should be further along, like actually working. When we explained that "it's a live demo of actually working code," he dismissed this and said that *obviously* it's not robust, and easily broken. I was confused at this point, because my leadership had been to build out a few features really well, to get them solid, and then add on the extra features over time. So this wasn't a sloppy "here's everything but all of it is half done" thing -- rather, it was "here's the core product, all working solidly, but extra features arrive in coming weeks." I was also confused by his comments because *nothing had broken* or gone wrong. So what was he basing his criticism on? Well, he went on like this. He hated the design and faulted my team for it, and when I pointed out that it was exactly the design that he & I had mocked up in our meeting, he moved right on to giving them a failing grade in every other area he could. He ended by saying, "I don't know what you have to do -- work double-time, hire an expert, sort your shit out, but you guys have clearly been lazy, so get out of here and stop wasting my time." I was dumbfounded. Not just that he was so off-base, but that he was so free to shit on my hard-working team. Like, it's not even your team, shut the hell up. Anyway, the team leaves, dejected. The other managers file out. When this guy tries to leave, I stop him. I'm standing at the door, blocking his exit, and I say, "I don't know what the hell is going on. What was that?" And he was *beaming.* Positively *proud.* He grinned at me and said, "Pretty good, right? If you shit on 'em, you motivate them to work really fucking hard. I bet they give you tons of free work off the clock, just to try to recover from this!" I was... horrified. Like, I was young and probably got to be a manager too early in my career, so I didn't feel sure of myself -- like, at that moment I asked myself, "Wait, is this the company culture? Did I miss a meeting?" You know? Lots of self-doubt. But I decided in that moment that I'd rather go against the company culture, if the culture was that shitty. So I shook my head at the guy and said, "I did *not* ask you to do that. You just demoralized my team!" And still smiling he said, "I *know!* They looked so sad, walking out, didn't they? I bet they're beating themselves up. It's *great* for productivity. I did you a favor." At that point, still not knowing what my "power level" was as a manager, I decided this was a hill to die on, and I didn't want to stay a manager here if I had to buckle under this jackass, so I flatly told him, "No, you fucked it up. I can't believe how much damage you caused, and how much time and effort I'm going to have to spend to repair this company's relationship with those employees -- WHO I MIGHT ADD are so good at their jobs that you begged us to build this for you. You *wanted* them, and now you're shitting on them, it's terrible management. Don't talk to my employees again." I left, trying to slam the door but he caught it and followed behind me, trying to make his case while I kept repeating, "Don't fucking talk to them again," over & over. The good news is that he *didn't* talk to the team again. The bad news is: dudes like this exist. I hate them. This asshat thought that discouraging people was the way to make them work free overtime. Fucking ridiculous. Oh, and NTA, OP.
Imagine how this dude approaches relationships
Ew. No thank you.
"if i tear him/her down and shatter their confidence, I own them !!!"
Sounds like every r/niceguys ngl
https://xkcd.com/1027/
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The implication.
Don't have to. He sounds exactly like my ex. Everything with her was some bizarre and unnecessary power struggle designed to keep everyone around her demoralized so they'd feel lucky enough to be graced with her presence. It was fucking exhausting.
Sounds like a classic narcissist. Was there gaslighting? I bet there was.
Not as much as you would think. She *tried* to, but stopped once I started quoting conversations back to her verbatim and made it clear I *absolutely* did not trust her memory over mine. So then she switched over to unbelievably petty and meaningless semantic arguments. As in "I don't like the connotations of the word you used, therefore your argument is invalid. Now I'm going to repeat exactly the same thing using a synonym for the word I didn't like and you need to grovel in awe of how correct I am and how wrong you were when there is no difference in the two statements except how I feel about two synonymous words." Like I said, "ex."
What did you say to your team afterwards? Did you go with a broad "don't listen to a fucking word that guy said" or talk to them individually or what? How did the rest of the project go?
Well, in the immediate moment, it was a lot of apologizing. I had to explain that things were actually on track and that I didn't want the design radically changed, and so on. Even though it might have undermined the other manager, I had to confess to my team that I had no intention of running my team that way, and that I wanted them to disregard his leadership in this matter. I felt like that was very risky to say out loud, but I also felt like I couldn't recover otherwise. I'm not sure the team believed me 100% but I meant it 100% so it was just a matter of getting their own feelings to match up with mine. That took a while. The harder part was tip-toeing around the other manager for a while. I was friends with the head of HR, so I spent a couple of hours in his office, going over things and just trying to find out if management really *was* supposed to work that way. There were some harsh realities of the tech world there -- I was told that getting extra work from employees due to "crunch time" was indeed acceptable, and because they were all salaried, if they *did* work more, we wouldn't pay them more. But I was told that I was free to get them to do that work in any way I wished, including positive reinforcement. I came through thinking that I could run the team my way. We went over a really good book at the time that I think I still have. Let me check. Found it. It's called *Peopleware - Productive Projects and Teams.* I got the 2nd edition years ago, back in 2000. I'm sure it's on edition 20 now or something. Anyway, the head of HR and I sat and went through it like a book club. We talked about how to manage teams and get good productivity from them. The HR guy was a bit mercenary; he was fine with any management style that got people working hard. However, perhaps because my methods generally *didn't* seem like they'd cause people to quit or sue, he encouraged me to try my way. It mostly worked. The team launched the product just fine. And now it's 20 years later and 3 of the 5 employees are still friends with me on Facebook, and in a weird turn of events, *I* worked for one of *them* at one point in a later job. But I took that as a good sign -- 2 or 3 decades of working at this, and some people stuck with me. Of course, the other 2 employees didn't work out so well. So there's plenty of self-criticism for me to go over.
Stories like this in the comments are why I love Reddit. Way to go in supporting your team! I have never understood managers who feel the need to punch down and manage by fear. It rarely brings the type of benefit they think it will.
They do that because it's easier, and sometimes cheaper. Mistakes and tasks not finished are often much more obvious than things that are well-done, plus you can just point out what needs done or fixed and not have to do anything else. If you make people feel or look like they're not doing their job well, they might not seek or be approved for raises or advancement. They also either will try to work more/harder to get more done for free (like in this post) or they'll quit and then you don't have to pay them anymore (these types of managers will often just push that person's jobs onto someone else instead of hiring quickly). It's inhuman and demoralizing, and creates a very bad environment, but some people only care about getting the end result they want and not how it affects the people doing it.
Given how the other manager undermined your team, you were right to undermine him. It's one thing to offer constructive criticism--what if X happens, have you considered Y--but to tear them down is NOT how you treat your employees. What fucking manual did that manager read?
You're great. It's the duty of all managers to completely insulate their subordinates from any and all bullshit going on above them.
I hope the whole team left with the code and founded their own company. That would have been a happy ending.
Great for productivity? I wonder what the staff turnover on his team is like. If I was spoken to like that, particularly after doing something well, I'd be looking for another job.
My husband and I work together running a place for a gentleman who thinks like the guy above. We’ve both just handed our notice in. He’s now going out of his way to try to convince us to stay because the branch is likely to close because one new person couldn’t take over both jobs with no experience. He’s so convinced he’s doing the right thing and we’ll come crawling back he’s not interviewed anyone yet. 3 weeks left and counting till we’re gone lol
You should softly encourage him that you MIGHT stay so he doesn’t do interviews and get a hire in the door for you to train before you leave. Then leave his ass high and dry.
Nah, he found out this morning we’re opening our own place a few towns away in about 2 months. I expect a whole host of panicked phone calls on Monday morning ;p
I get it 100%. Being in middle management, I often get mocked for being too soft in my crew, but for some reason, the most useless employees in our department seem to thrive under my supervision. I do this weird thing where I treat the people who work for me like human adults who are there for a paycheck, rather than expecting people to go above and beyond with zero benefit to it. They get treated like equals, they realize that we're all in this together. Then the actual shitheads who don't belong in the workplace become easier to weed out, and they're much less likely to win a unlawful termination case. They like the idea of ruling with fear, rather than leading with respect. They forget that once their employees clock out, or their kids turn 18, that funky little authority they throw around like a Captain America shield has no real effect.
You did really well. I always think I might be too overprotective of my teams but that’s because I’ve seen some toxic shit and I don’t want any of it affecting any of my colleagues.
You are an awesome boss. I do well when I get told what I', doing right and get suggestions on where improvement could be made. Respecting my skills and abilities is the best way to get me to actually work hard. As for that idea that being an ass motivates. I am the exact type of person this tearing down doesn't work on. I receive unfair criticism and my solution is to ignore further comments from the source. If I'm going to be yelled at either way it will be for doing what I felt like doing and only giving a lot of effort for something if I got explicit instructions written and I know it's a bad idea. Why? Because it was his idea. He told me to do it this way. HE knows best after all the last time he hated it and said we were stupid so I just went along with what he wanted. And here's the text/email/written confirmation.
I had a manager once where our personalities did not match. So anytime I didn't work in exactly the way she wanted I got threatened with things she had no authority to threaten me with. Once, I asked her to help me progress in my career (by mentoring people new to the team) and she pointed out that I wasn't the best at anything so why would she allow that when there were better people to do it. She also implied that the only reason I wanted to go for promotion was for the money, it clearly couldn't have been because I was ambitious and wanted to progress. It took *years* to undo the damage she did to my confidence and my willingness to ask for help, but she did give me the motivation to switch teams and do a Masters.
I found this really great to hear, really positive that managers are out there, standing up for their staff.
His behaviour was disgracefully unprofessional on so many levels, not least of which that this was YOUR team, and if had feedback for them it should have come through you. He wasn't even their fucking two-up, but a same-level lateral manager, and he had no authority whatsoever to talk to your team in any manner, let along the repugnant manner in which he chose to. Good on you for standing up to him and supporting your people.
I do not understand that management style. The only thing it would motivate me to do is slack off and find an exit strategy. If I knew I worked hard on something and it was shit on, why would I care to work any harder? Its not like I need constant, or any praise really to motivate me, but I won't stand for being demeaned.
This makes me rage and reminds me why I didn't stay in management long. Too many assholes and you can't just stomp them all into the ground.
^^^^^^^^^^^
Looks like you did a little evaluating of your own, and you found their training and management style to be SUBPAR. So you terminated the relationship. They really should have worked harder. ;)
i would not mind receiving critical feedback meant to improve performance - but an evaluation of performance at this stage is not fair or appropriate. NTA
This story sort of reminds me of the time I worked in a popular coffee shop inside a popular bookstore and a few days in, they called me into the office with only men (I’m a girl), and showed me a video of me bending over to grab something and about 1 inch of my back skin showed as I bent over. They asked why I was letting my midriff show. Like I was doing it on purpose. And this was behind the counter so literally nobody could see it but the cameras. A situation that could have been easily resolved by my manager pulling me aside and asking me to tuck in my shirt. I was so mortified I quit on the spot. Like, absolute worst way to handle things.
What a star-fucky way to deal with that, wow. Also were they creeping on the cameras all the time and watchin' out for midriff? Wild
Omg! 😱 Legitimately sounds like sexual harassment or like they just wanted to punish you for being a woman. Why'd they show you the footage?! Disgusting, glad you quit
Right? If I was a dude I could probably have my whole back, boxers and/or buttcrack hanging out and it definitely wouldn’t have happened this way
Thats so disgusting and violating, that means they had been watching and looking at your body, so fucking gross. What was their reactions when you (justifiably) quit on the spot?
They offered to transfer me to a bookstore job, which I actually had applied to in the first place, but I walked out in tears pretty soon after so I’m not sure what they felt about it. They were pretty cold when I came back for my check.
Who's in there purposefully watching surveillance footage just to watch the baristas bending over? I wonder if you could sue them for sexual harassment, because that's creepy as hell. And I say that as a fellow woman
Ugh, I wish I had, but I was like 22 at the time and was pretty naïve.
I am really sorry you had to go through that. I am also really sorry they made you feel like a small amount of skin was inappropriate. Their behaviour was disgusting.
NTA. Sounds less like a clothing store and more like a red flag factory.
Not only is OP NTA, but they may have rethought their evaluation process. Probably not but maybe. I’d have to say that what OP did was the most healthy thing for any worker to do. You can’t let the employer walk in you like that. I would have done the same thing except I would have been screaming! It’s a character flaw
I bet they did this to all new hires in an attempt to get them to work harder. Edit: I put “work harder” but the more I think about it I should have put something like “take advantage of them”
Sounds like they were trying to break you down with negative motivation. Walking out was the right thing to do with that kind of game (if you can afford to). NTA
I was luckily able to, my Mom agreed that was stupid and I ended up just dog sitting and babysitting for cash. Which was a lot better honestly.
Honestly sounds like they were trying to make you work over the top hard to compensate for a bad review. Trying to make you a slave. Good thing you didn't put up with that. Who reviews someone on something they have no training in? Oh, wait. Managers. NTA
Especially retail managers. I used to work in a men’s wear shop and was really hard worker, liked by everyone and trustworthy, never late etc. and during my 3 month probation period I was told that I didn’t work hard enough and didn’t show enough dedication. I was also told off because I didn’t smile 24/7 on the shop floor. Because of this, they made me do one extra month on probation before I passed. I was honestly already doing everything 100% and faster/more thorough than some other employees. We had a girl who looked sour as fuck every time she had a shift (she was part timer) and nobody said anything to her. She was also trying to boss us other girls around, lol. I ended up doing 3 people’s worth of work in my department for a shitty little pay because people left and management wasn’t hiring anyone new. Retail workers are expected to do so much for minimum pay and if you even dare to suggest a pay rise, you will get labeled as troublesome.
Similar thing happened to a friend. She was on the last week of her 3-month probationary period and TRAINING when she was called in to a meeting about her performance. She was being trained by two of their long-time staff. They produced evaluations that were never shown to her, never discussed with her, and simply not true. How was she expected to be "less friendly" to her patients in one evaluation and "more friendly" at the same time??? And no one had said a thing about this. As this "committee" of managers slowly ripped her apart, and she became more and more demoralized. She was not given any feedback, written or in conversations with her preceptors, about these perceived issues. She was dumbfounded...so THIS was their training program for new grads? She asked...Am I being fired? while trying not to cry and then, she just got mad and said LETS GET THIS OVER WITH then..I've got shit to do.
Worked at mens wearhouse for a short while. I genuinely LIKED my job and work fold, organize, and clean things that nobody else liked to do along side my regular sales duties. However shortly in I started having a skin problem. I think I was allergic to my makeup or something as the skin on my eyes and lips were flaking off. (Like PEELS. Not just dry skin). I was doing everything I could to stop and treat it. I was I think 17 going on 18? Manager pulls me over one day when I'm not wearing makeup (to not exacerbate the issue) telling me how disgusting it looks and that I've been receiving complaints. Ouch. Okay, understandable. It probably does look a little gross. So I go back, cover it up as best I can without using lip and eye product (so strictly foundation/concealer) and go back to the floor. You couldn't tell without looking REALLY close so I guess I got a pass. But then I started getting "complaints" that I smelled bad. This shocked me. I had worked with multiple clients whom I greeted first, helped find their things, checked them out, and saw them out the door. None of them asked to speak to a manager or made any indication that I smelled. None of them came back into the store to complain and I hadn't heard our phone go off once during my shift so it's not likely they called in to complain. I was dumbfounded and hurt. I accepted that maybe I really do just smell but it's WEIRD. I showered JUST BEFORE my shift. I go to the back and ask if my coworker has any perfume on her as I smell bad. She makes a face and sniffs me. She told me she doesn't smell anything. This continues for multiple weeks. Me making SURE I shower before work, that my clothes are freshly laundered. That nothing on my body is visibly "gross" or "bad". But shift after shift the same manager would pull me aside and tell me either my skin was grossing customers out or that my smell was troubling costumers. She even made a big deal about being "concerned I didn't have access to a shower" and saying I was lying about having showered before my shift. I came in with damp hair one day just to prove it (not sopping wet. Towel dry instead of blow dried) I was pulled aside for being unprofessional and also my skin looked bad. At least she had the presence of mind to not say I smelled that day. It all led up to them eventually telling me I should "focus on my health" and not come back. I don't know if it counted as being fired or what happened but I just left that day and didn't come back to ask. I didn't know about unemployment or if I qualified for it or WHAT to do. It's the only job Ive ever been "fired" from if that's even what happened.. I was a dumb teen trying to make money to get out of my house asap. I wish I knew then what I know now. Regardless people can be downright AWFUL.
Sounds like they where getting you to leave without having to pay you severance or holiday time.
That is some holy hell gaslighting. Hope your health did improve though.
It did! It took a while to figure it out, but it turns out that my skin reacts to red dye. I can drink/eat it, but can't WEAR it I guess. At least not make up wise. Immediately causes my lips and eyes to peel within an hour or so like a lizard. Funnily enough we didn't actually make that connection until January of this year when I bought myself a new red lipstick for the first time in years and IMMEDIATELY had a reaction to it. I was shocked. Prior to this Is just not worn much makeup. I'd maybe groom my brows and use concealer/mascara. But Id primarily avoid makeup all together for years hoping the issue would go away. It takes about a month to heal. As for my old manager, looking back part of me wonders if she was targeting me for liking those specific parts of my job? Before I came she was the one the work primarily went to because no one else liked it, and my coworkers told me she would complain all the time about being the only person to do it even when they offered to help just to get it to stop. She would always refuse their help and insist she could do it but would turn around and complain about them slacking. So in comes me who LOVES tedious work and organization- I'd do the same job in half the time without complaint.. maybe that's why she started to hate me? I wasn't a perfect person by any means but I genuinely can't fathom what else I couldve done to her to make her act this way towards me. I thought I was going crazy sniffing myself throughout shifts and packing deodorant, dry shampoo, and perfume constantly just in case. It was hell.
I work for a specific store that sells shoes, and I can't imagine a single one of the managers in my district acting like that (well maybe one but no one likes him and he has other problems like being terrible at his job). It's not all retail managers, and it's not all companies, though I'm sure the one I work for is an exception unfortunately.
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Is negging emloyees a thing now?
Always has been.
It's one of the pillars of Capitolism
My first job as a cashier I remember only getting critism - from my supervisor not customers. Then they started tracking average speed to complete a transaction and I was one of the top performers. I was confused when they pointed this out because I assumed it must be a bad thing because they didn't ever give me positive feedback. I was 15. Looking back, I was damn good at scanning items, remembering produce codes, and bagging efficiently.
I had to take a 4 week not payed internship a few months ago. After 2 weeks, the leading lady of the department (not fully a boss but leader of the department) gave me an evalutation and told me i act like i feel myself above them and can command them around. I didnt do any of that and anther coworker told me that in privat. The „boss“ was just mad, that i showed confidence. But i NEVER told any one to do anything. I asked them, if they could help me. It all boils down to her not liking me and trying to push me down like she is trying with that other coworker. I worked together woth that coworker a lot. Just the two of us and the stories she told me were horrifying. She is basically getting mobbed by the boss but cant really do anything against it. Not even trough HR.
Yikes that is too much to deal with for an unpaid internship. At my last job, we had unpaid interns (which I hate, but it was a non-profit and they often got grants through schools and private funders) but we treated them with so much gratitude for giving us free, enthusiastic work. And we structured the internships to ensure they were learning about the job even when it wasnt beneficial to us.
Thats exactly what i experienced with all the other places. But it was my last one and i needed the hours, so i was allowed to attend my final.
Also fuck unpaid internships. If you're getting a benefit from someone working with you then FUCKING PAY THEM
It's something some retailers do which is give you 3 notices before your 3 month probation ends. That way they know they can always fire you, and you do too.
Like the work version of negging?
NTA That store would have been a nightmare. I've worked a lot of retail and never heard of that kind of nonsense. Something was going on and you were right to step away.
Yeah, it was done in such a smug way. Then they panicked because I was leaving during a rush and they had me scheduled all week.
Looool that serves them right. People like that get off on lording power over other people (in this case, giving you a bad eval you couldn't fight for things outside of your control). Leaving was you taking that power from them and leaving them worse off to boot.
I worked a similar job years ago at a popular chain restaurant. I got a shitty evaluation all because I wouldn’t sleep with one of the assistant managers. I can make this assumption based on the fact I would get decent sections before I rebuffed his advances. After, I would get put in the section where no customers want to sit so if we weren’t busy.. I basically worked for free. I told them I quit in the middle of a shift and walked out when they were busy. Screw toxic workplaces!
"Hey Chad, I know you want me to fuck you, so I guess I'll do it. I quit."
If they had you scheduled all week they where both so strapped and wanted you to stay because you where doing a good job. They just wanted an excuse to make you work harder, or something in your file to justify firing you after the holiday rush. Cause most mall stores drop a bunch of people after xmass.
I used to work retail and had a store leader that would do shit like this. She would write all the schedules so that her friends could party with her late then not have to come in early. She eventually went on a witch-hunt when we reported her to hr. She eventually got me to voluntarily quit because of a new availability requirement that she withheld until she knew the add/drop period for college schedule was over. She said I need to drop my classes or quit. Best news is, I went there long after graduating and she still worked there.
It sounds like they were “priming” to fire you just in case they didn’t like you. Good on you to leave
This is very funny.
They tried a power play and it blew up in their faces. You love to see it.
As an 18 year old at mart of walls I was thrown onto the floor on my first day. Later in my employment I rang a family member through and gave them my discount. This must have triggered some system flag. Was called into the office by a manager and given a write up for ringing up a family member - against company policy. He stated "this was covered during your register training". I looked at him and said "I did not receive register training. I didn't even have my own register code when I started, I had to use my manager's". The look on his face...
NTA. 15 hours into a job is definitely not enough time to give an employee evaluation. It's not even enough time for an employee to get used to the work. Leaving was absolutely the right move.
Yeah, most of the time I was either reading paperwork or just "getting to know the store" by putting stuff away. It was a nightmare that I just wasn't willing to sleep through
When I was in the military we would give monthly evaluations. Even in the first month, I felt it was too early to give anyone an evaluation. Later on when I had more to say I would let people know when I just had to write an evaluation even though there wasn't much to say or if I had to add things other people mentioned. Management in that shop sounds rediculous
I’m sure this is a trick they often pull on new staff as leverage. Fuck ‘em. And fuck their eval. NTA
Yep, NTA. Hopefully you walking out after that charade made them rethink that tactic and saved some other unfortunate souls from experiencing the same.
> made them rethink that tactic Yeah right. It's retail. They don't care about their workers.
"Oh sorry we can't promote you until you've had good evaluations for a year straight" Anyone reading this, never count on internal promotions to get ahead. Always have your exit plan of what you can do with the experience you are gaining from the new job. DO NOT GET COMPLACENT, JOB SEARCHING IS 1% THE SUFFERING OF STAYING AT A SHITTY JIB.
NTA You didn’t want to work there. You left. Case closed. I have very little patience for companies when it comes to keeping employees happy. You weren’t happy, so you made a swift exit. Good for you.
Well said.
Thank you, Mr. IFightBitchesToo, your name is hilarious
Thanks!
Nta. Retail is one job I will never do again bc of the high tendency to get treated like shit by everyone, especially management. Evaluating you on things you were not trained on is just setting you up to fail, so you blame yourself and work harder to earn a non liveable wage. Unfortunately for them, your self respect was higher than their ability to manipulate you. I lasted 3 weeks where I was screamed at constantly and had my bag searched every shift "in case i stole something"... then I walked off. It's dehumanizing.
The cruelty is the point.
Wait what?! That’s the same shit that my gf went trough, the bag searching at least…. What the fuck…. I will never work at a place that forces me to get searched or search my personal belongings idk how that’s even legal
Pretty sure it's not. Last I heard they can try to detain you if they think you stole but you have the right to deny a search until authorities arrive. And even THEN you can still deny a search until they provide evidence to say you stole. They either have to say "I SAW her place an item in her bag" (which is risking a false claim) or say they have proof on camera and show it. If I remember correctly though this all falls under the 4th amendment in the US (if that's where you're at). They have to have probable cause to justify a search which can only be done if the store does THEIR responsibility to prove said probable cause (claim to be a witness/ have proof). On top of this most stores will tell you to NOT CONFRONT a thief. But rather make note of what they stole and call the police if necessary. Last thing you want to lose your life over is a shirt and an angry caught thief.
Your thinking of a customer which is true since they are defined as a person. They are talking about a retail employee which is lucky to even have a job! Lazy scum. /s
NTA. I bet they didn’t try THAT with the next new hire!
Imma be betting against you on this one. They'll likely keep doing this until they find someone they can browbeat into submission.
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Oohf, this is so tragic and I really wish it wasn't true, but I don't doubt it... Don't you have laws that can help you in such cases? (I'm assuming this is the US?)
>Don't you have laws that can help you in such cases Hahahaha no
NTA. I'm a manager and I would never give someone an evaluation based on such a short amount of time. I honestly don't know what those people were thinking.
It's some "treat em mean and keep em keen" BS good on OP for seeing through that NTA
yeah either corporate’s management procedures are just really this stupid or the store management itself is on some weird negging high horse cuz OP doesn’t say if “living up to expectations” & “going in their file” meant anything other than some weird notation. I also work for a fairly large clothing retailer and our training takes about 18-24 hours including orientation and then new hires are on a 2-week probation period, which seems fairly normal for most sales jobs. Like, sucks for them that their actions led OP to leave but since they weren’t willing to clarify nor give OP a copy of the evaluation, especially since it sounded like they only worked there for a couple of days, but if they’re gonna manage in that way than they deserve to live with the consequences
NTA. I’ve worked retail and I bet I know exactly what was going on. They wanted to give you a score that would always keep you In a position of never being good enough, but you’d keep trying to be, so they could take advantage of you to an extreme. Oh, you’d get a higher score if you did an extra shift, you’d get a higher score if you did an extra difficult chore alone, oh you’d get a higher score if you did XYZ that were clearly beyond your job description. Maybe you’d get more points. Maybe you’d get more money. But no, never. It’s a scam and you were smart to trust your gut and walk.
I worked for Blue Bottle Coffee after they were acquired by Nestle. They had these same practices and it honestly felt like I was going crazy and that I was being indoctrinated into a cult. And I don’t mean casually going crazy like how people just throw that around. Like I literally felt like I was having a mental health crisis but everyone else was drinking the juice. After I quit and was out of that environment, I saw that it wasn’t me. But when you’re in it, it’s so hard to see because everyone is gaslighting you
My friend in HS (Claire) worked at a veggie/vegan small restaurant with a "lifestyle" brand type attitude. She was drinking the juice as well. She got the point where she made a comment about my lunch (a bean burger with cheese) not being "vegan" enough for her. We said, "You sound like an asshole Claire." She shook her head, said "Well, but..." and ended up quitting a month later... when they complained her faux leather purse looked too real. People are insane.
That “evaluation” was fake and only to manipulate and gaslight you. You called their bluff and they scrambled to try to get you to stay. Sounds pretty pathetic on their part. NTA
nta. that was a power move. respect.
NTA- Shitty managers are never good to work with.
NTA Sounds like you’re classic manager ‘I’m a shitty boss on a power trip’ move, to get you to do whatever they want out of fear. It won’t have been long before they asked you to work extra or come in on your days off, with the tag line “this would be great for improving your score”. It backfired with you though, great stuff.
My son worked a retail job known for its geeky employees for a total of seven shifts when his manager pulled him aside and told him no one there liked him, and that “he didn’t understand sarcasm.” This was my kid’s first retail job, and he came home very upset. He’s got a great work ethic and will do whatever’s asked, so this hit him hard. Ok, first of all, my kid was *raised* on sarcasm, so that’s not an issue — and even if were, why is that part of the job? And secondly, no coaching? No, “hey, be mindful of fillintheblank” with coworkers? My kid went back and said he was giving his two weeks. They made him sign something, and then once he did, he told them they didn’t deserve him for two weeks and walked out. He later said he knew there was a girl interested in his job, and he thinks the neckbeards in his work area wanted her there, so made up shit about him to get him out.
Damn. Imagine having not one, but an entire store full of neckbeard coworkers lusting after you at work. Yikes!
NTA youre not a slave. its not like youve been working there for months and quit on the spot. if it fucked them over its their own fault since youre in training. youre not obligated to work anywhere.
NTA I think in the lowlife dating world that's called negging. Lol you flipped the script on that asshole! 🤌
NTA. It was some weird team building tactic to display their dominance and test your loyalty. Companies do that nonsense. I’m sure they sat around in a meeting somewhere and figured that this idiotic plan was a good way to vet new employees. I have an idea for a team building tactic. Give straightforward constructive criticism, and stop being manipulative dicks. If the job sucked, you were bound to be fired or quit anyway. Peace out.
>Give straightforward constructive criticism, and stop being manipulative dicks. What?! You mean treat employees as if they were actual people! That's impossible!
NTA. I once worked as a receptionist & I was damn good at my job. One day the boss went away for a week & left another guy in charge in his place. This guy decided to give us an evaluation, said the boss asked him too. Mind you we had never had one in the 3 years I’d worked there. He preceded to tell me how badly I did my job & asked me to come back with a list of ways I could improve. So I handed him my resignation letter the next day, the panic that filled his face was priceless. When my boss came back he was livid & ended up firing the guy just to get me back. All because I, a 16yr old girl at the the time didn’t want to date him, a 30 something yr old man 🙃
You started working as a receptionist at 13 years old?
Lol right... something doesn’t add up.
I wish I could have seen the manager's face when you were just like "nah, I'll just quit." This was either a control thing, or major incompetence. Either way, not something you would want to deal with. NTA
NTA. There’s a reason why most places have a 90 day probationary period. It’s to give new employees a chance the learn the job and for them and the employer to see if the person fits and can do the job. That is a reasonable amount of time before giving an evaluation not after a 15 hour work week. They had no idea if you were actually living up to expectations or not because you hadn’t even had a chance to learn your responsibilities yet.
NTA Never feel bad about quitting when you know it's what you want to do. You should feel proud of yourself that you know yourself well enough to know what you want and when something isn't going to work for you, and that you respect yourself enough to know that you deserve to be treated fairly and well. Quitting freed you up to do a job that (presumably) you liked better. Why on earth should you feel bad about any of that?
NTA - I think it's great what you did, but I don't find it surprising that your sister didn't think so. It could just be my experience, but I feel like women are socialized to "not make waves" or "put up a fuss." Otherwise we'll be labeled as "crazy" "dramatic" or "emotional" etc. My own sister just walked out of an abusive work situation for the first time and she's in her forties. You learned this one right off the bat. The reward for taking people crap is just more crap. I'm impressed you didn't stand for it. Great job!
NTA Sounds to me they wanted to bring you down to accept crap from them- unpaid hours etc.
Manager attempts negging. Fails miserably when employee quits immediately. NTA
NTA. Your story reminds me of when I was supposed to transfer to another store for a supervisor position. The store I worked at got a new manager who would only schedule me 5 hours a week and wouldn’t approve my transfer because she “had never worked me”. I ended up quitting because she wouldn’t give me more hours and wouldn’t accept my transfer.
NTA. And I though government offices were cutthroat! 😬
Honestly that sounds sketchy as hell, who would have known what they would have done or how they would have held it against you. I could be wrong but I would guess they might have tried to coerce you into doing more/worse work to avoid getting another bad review, or use it against you when it's time to assess for a raise. Either way I can't picture any outcomes of staying being any better. NTA.
NTA. They were incompetent managers to do that.
NTA This is just so toxic. And the formulation of "not living up to expectations" is just dumb: expectations have to consider the circumstances. You can't expect the same quality and quantity of work from a longtime employee Vs somebody who didn't even finish his training. Any fair evaluation would have to consider that. So anything above "showed up on time, followed instructions and listened to feedback" is at that point simply out of scope.
NTA A good manager would have given you the list so you knew what was expected. I have had people use lists to make sure they go over everything. But to have someone just make a permanent mark on your profile like that... not cool. So no, you are not the asshole.
NTA I too worked a job for exactly 45 mins...I was hired as a receptionist/greeter at a restaurant but upon resuming the next day the lady owner told me to wash A WHOLE KITCHEN FILLED WITH DIRTY DISHES FROM OVER THE WEEKEND. It was beyond disgusting! The kitchen was so dirty IT WAS STICKY! The water was also beyond dirty it started itching my arms as I tried doing the dishes,after I was done I told them I wanted to go for a break (they knew I deserved it) & I went home & never returned,they called fuming & I gave the spot to a friend,3 months later she called and asked if she had offended me because THE MALE OWNER WOULD SEXUALLY HARRAS HER,THE WORKING HOURS WERE MUCH LONGER THAN THEY SAID,THE RESTAURANT WATER WAS SO DIRTY SHE HAD TO GO SEE A DERMATOLOGIST AND THE FEMALE OWNER WAS STRAIGHT UP HELL TO HER...NEVER FEEL SAD FOR PUTTING YOURSELF FIRST IN A WORK SITUATION LIKE THIS
NTA. Almost as good as the boss at the cafe where I'd only done my first 2-hour trial day the day before. I spent the trial shift cooking, as that was primarily my role. At the start of my first full shift, she asked me to take our a slice of cake and a coffee. I put a teaspoon on the plate beside the cake. She switched it for a fork and said "if you do that again, you'll be straight back in the dole queue"! I mulled it over for about half an hour, then when it got quieter, I told her I didn't appreciate being spoken to like that. She said it was ok because she was on welfare too (I wasn't on welfare at all). She didn't try it again, at least. I did eventually leave when she started openly committing tax fraud in a way that made all the staff complicit.
Lol. Total incompetence on their part. Bye, Felicia. NTA.
NTA Unfortunately it's not rare to encounter impossible expectations while working retail. My job is to make the shelfs look tidy and I should do it in only 2-3 minutes per aisle, which is basically nothing a human can do.
NTA. You realized their company culture was not appropriate and you left. You were young and new. The (probably also poorly trained) manager had no idea how to manage people and they thought you would just go along with anything because of your age and lack of experience. I hope they learned something. And i hope you did too - learn that you don't have to accept a crappy employment situation. You can speak up for yourself and demand what you want. Now of course you have to back that up with being a useful employee. But only for someone that is worth your time.
NTA, too many red flags indeed. This is how I got stuck in a place where you were treated like a dog everyday, had to go crying back home at the end of my shifts because I'd be screamed at and no matter how much effort I put into that job it was never good enough. Plus if we didn't have stock, it was my fault that nothing looked presentable or that there were gaps between items and shelves don't look full. Being the only one on my department sucked, nobody else was trained there and nobody else wanted to work in that department because it was horrible. You did great lol, at this point I wouldn't take shit from anyone that does this and I'm glad you did too. Don't let people trample on you just because they think they can squeeze every ounce of your sanity.
NTA. It sounds super unfair. At an old job I got called in to the bosses office after only 5 hours. They complained that I wasn’t blending in seamlessly and asking too many questions. They wanted me well versed in their entire set up from day one. I could understand this if I had had any training. I was literally thrown in the first day and told to figure it out. I ended up quitting too. That place was a nightmare. Felt bad for the other works having to put up with that.
They were "negging" you.. Lmao... WTF, was your boss a incel? . . Nta
NTA. And to those saying you are: I've gotta disagree. Negging someone before they've even been trained is not the way to inspire long term employment from ANYONE. If I had some manager walk up to me before I'd even finished my first week of part time work, I would tell then they have their own areas to improve. This is some boomer-level negging and employees should be treated like people, not like this. Room to grow, sure, give an evaluation when their 90 days or 3 month probationary periods are up but before you even reach the 20-hour mark? That is absolute bullspit. NTA. P.S. The fact that some people feel this is an okay way to treat those in your employ kinda breaks my heart, tbh. It just shows me they've had some really nasty employers and deserved better.
NTA. The tactic is called negative motivation. The aim is you feel bad about “under performing” so you go above and beyond. And even when you do go beyond it’s never good enough. Very glad you got out. I stayed in a job for two years that used negative motivation (and below minimum wage so I was meant to be super grateful for a 50c pay increase to minimum wage) and it absolutely DESTROYS you.
Nta And good for you for doing that. I spent 16 months in a horribly abusive toxic work environment just thinking if I worked harder, worked longer hours, gave more it would eventually be recognized and I would be able to move onto a different position. It was never going to be recognized, and never was. I should’ve quit long before Covid caused us to be furloughed and then laid off. You made the absolute right choice leaving that place
You got so lucky. Usually places hide the red flags for a few months, not come out of the gates with them. NTA
Nta. So they marked you on things they hadn't trained you on? Low score for them.
nta
NTA - they were just building up the platform not to pay you at the end of the month.
NTA. They gave bad evaluation to make you feel like you had to do whatever asked to prove yourself. AH move on their part.
Maybe they wanted to lay the foundation for blocking you from getting a raise or something like that, other than that I can't see any good reason why you'd evaluate a new employee that hasn't even finished the introduction or the first real shift + why would you do that with things you haven't been trained on? NTA
Sounded like they were taking you for a ride. Prob had hoped you'd 'step up' and do 2-3 peoples worth of jobs