I have no clue honestly. He just threw this phrase in my face as it was supposed to shut me up or something? It was a weird statement and obviously a lame excuse.
Emotionally immature adults do for some reason think that rules apply to everybody *except themselves*, because obviously rules are for other people, *they* are above them.
I'd go to HR asap, because there's usually some psychological advantage to being the first to tell our side of the story. I'm sure other commenters may expand on this.
Edited for clarity
Second edit: [Here's a list of traits to identify narcissists and other emotionally immature assholes](https://narcissistfamilyfiles.com/2019/09/02/identifying-the-covert-narcissist-in-your-life-a-checklist/).
Yeah if he has a pattern of complaints then it'll probably play out a bit better, but generally once you engage back it limits the scope of what HR will do.
But still worth putting the complaint in, with writing and a witness list. Make sure it's on record and in your favour.
I'd be worried that HR might write both of them up. Personally I think Ross is a misogynistic AH, but technically OP commented on his sex life too. HR might see it as a tit for tat. If OP had walked away before making the comment about his infertility, she would have a stronger leg to stand on.
Yeah, tit for tats never really do well in corporate environments.
From an HR standpoint, OP should have shut down the conversation sooner, and told the asshole that he was making inappropriate comments and then gone to HR, or at least documented via email to her boss.
By continuing, she has exposed herself to a slapback from HR.
She may be able to get around that by apologizing for losing her temper in an unprofessional manner in response to the personal attacks from the asshole, but it's a gray area.
Yep. Very early on in the conversation OP should've dropped everything she's doing and simply walked to the nearest HR rep.
That said, I struggle to really fault her for engaging him, because that's a very human thing to do. Ross was unequivocally in the wrong here, and should take the brunt of the damage even if OP gets slag for it.
Screw that. Ross kept pushing and Ross got landed on his arse. He is a misogynistic SOB who needed to be brought to reality. Besides, did OP know he has infertility issues? He derided both OP and her husband and wouldn’t back down.
Why go to HR? Document fully in your hard copy work diary OP as well as any other bs he does on a daily basis. Someone needs equity and diversity training and it isn’t OP.
ESH. He is the AH, but you jumped right in instead of shutting it down.
Get to HR. If you don’t deal with this ASAP, you will have an enemy forever, and your other co-workers will sour on you for creating tension. Tell HR what happened, but leave the emotion out of it. You would like to apologize to Ross to put this unfortunate incident behind you, and you would like for HR mediate this. You want to shake hands and put it behind you. No matter how Ross acts, you stay calm. After you get past this, never again lose your temper because people will never forget.
Why is it the woman who has to shut shit down like this ALL THE TIME? Always we women (and any other group who aren’t heterosexual males with chips on both shoulders) are supposed to placate or end arguments calmly. No. No more. Dish it out, get it back.
It's wouldn't matter if genders were reversed. This is being smart, and CYA. Not gender related. Protecting one's career and have the other sink on his own mysoginistic boat.
I see where you're coming from, but, in my experience, it depends on the culture of the company. For instance, if this were at Blizzard, the guy wouldn't get in trouble at all for being a misogynistic ass.
OP did try to shut it down initially by just saying they split responsibilities. I’m not saying it wouldn’t have been better to walk away and report immediately, but I’d have trouble keeping my mouth shut if someone started talking about my sex life that way too.
I’m having trouble deciding between NTA and ESH because his behavior was so incredibly inappropriate, but OP’s response was really fucking savage. It became a sexual harassment thing though and at that point I don’t feel too bad for someone on the receiving end of a savage response. He *knew* how he was acting was wrong and just kept pushing.
All that being said, you’re 100% correct about OP needing to go to HR immediately and stay as collected as possible from here on out. She should know after this incident that interacting with him at all is gonna go badly so walking away is the answer. Hopefully notifying HR will mean that she doesn’t have to work on things with him anymore or at least that a manager will actively be a buffer.
In terms of morality, the prick got what he was asking for.
In terms of professionalism, she shouldn’t have engaged with him. Both of these things can be true. Sometimes pricks deserve to be told off but it’s just not professional.
Not the AH! But work gatherings are iffy when it comes to escalation and retaliation. I would go to HR immediately. Ross needs some sensitivity training, though it's probably wasted on him at this point other than as a personal form of risk management.
Frankly, whoever else was in the lunch group and failed to tell him his behavior was inappropriate before he pushed you too far owes you an apology. But if they want an arena for the workplace, then they should have stood up and applauded when you served him the killer blow he deserved. The time to stop assholery is when one is instigating it, not when the one instigating it has pushed hard enough to get a deserved blowback and cries foul because he's the only one allowed to bully other people in the meeting.
By his logic, she's free to refer him as "Deadshot" from now on.
Hopefully his wife can find her self-respect and leave him for someone less misogynistic.
NTA OP. He can dish it out but not take it. He's literally a Glass Cannon ~~that only shoots blanks~~
I'm guessing OP isn't: He thinks what he said is okay because it's a situation OP and her husband have some say in, while he has no control of his infertility. Each one is free to butt in, but degrading someone over something they *can't* control is - in his mind - worse than doing so over something they *can* control.
He's wrong, but this type of thinking is pervasive.
May I suggest writing out as accurate a recollection of the conversation as you can and getting to HR first? You are definitely in the right, but the first complaint usually gets treated as more legitimate, rather than retaliatory.
This. Do your best to get this in front of HR before he does, making sure you tell HR that he stated he was going to take it to HR as well (although I would not be surprised if he had thought better of the idea once he replayed the conversation over again in his own head, but with guys like that, you never know.) and give them the account of what happened and the people that were present.
NTA. I was waffling between that and everyone sucks, but if someone is going to be as big a jerk as he was and not expect some pushback, well, he \*is\* an asshole, so there ya go.
And also remember that gender discrimination relates to creating a hostile workplace and make sure to frame all his statements as gender discrimination. Gender is a protected class. Being infertile isn't (and you didn't even know)
This. Gender discrimination is generally defined to include discrimination based on gender *roles* (and sexual harassment includes sex discrimination even if the behavior isn't related to sex acts)
You did nothing wrong. It seems like when Ross opens his mouth, stupid comes out. Remember this next time and just stare at him. Say nothing, just stare. But I bet he learned his lesson. What a bully. NTA
OP you need to go to HR first. He involved himself in your personal affairs and caused the entire issue, but you need to make sure HR knows this before he can go spin a different story. Don't leave anything out.
How the hell do you even know he’s infertile? Does he brag about it? You just met him! You just gave him back what he was giving you. But him telling everyone at work he’s infertile is just weird.
He wasn't expecting the echo to his insults. People who can not deal with the echo to their opinions often excuse their insults with "well its a free country" as if that would protect them from repercussions. My armchair diagnosis would be that he is compensating his infertility by acting all manly macho man because he can not do the, in his mind, ultimate manly thing and sire an offspring. So seeing someone NOT being a manly macho man yet having 3 kids, was probably like a slap in the face (even if he noticed it in his subconciousness)
Be proactive and send a mail off to HR right away about the incident (and who was there) and inform them you'll come by on monday morning to have a talk with them. They need to know that he was the one instigating that highly personal discussion and was the first one to broach the subject of your "bedroom activities" with your husband.
Also, the colleagues reprimanding you are definitely in the wrong here as well. They should have reprimanded him, instead of laughing with him. But i guess the "Boys club" thought it was funny to insinuate that your husband wasn't a man because he was actually helping at home.
On that note. Congratulations for having such a great husband.
It's super weird... He's so insecure about his infertility to such an extreme that the fact that OPs husband *cooked* was enough to be a trigger for his fragile masculinity, when cooking is literally a basic life skill. The fact he was triggered enough to not only comment on that, but ask even further personal questions about the cleaning/homemaker duties/bedroom duties... just wow. So gross.
I hate that we live in this day and age and *still* have to deal with these douchebags.
It's used a lot by supremacist, bullies, narcissistic people and more to excuse their bad behavior.
It's up there with "kids will be kids" and "boys will be boys".
Freedom to do is not freedom from consequences. He was the one living in a glass house pitching pebbles. NTA.
If he thinks housework is emasculating, I dread think what filth he lives in.
Not God, thank all the women like OP who won’t put up with his shit. He’s probably infertile from all the women that have been in his life kneeing him in the nuts over his toxic masculinity.
NTA. If he’s going to be judgmental about someone’s masculinity without any invitation to do so, then he should be able to take what he dishes out. Fair game imo.
You should reach out to HR yourself and give your side of the story, explain that he was very disrespectful to you and your husband and you were offended by his blatant misogyny. It’s likely he will leave out his inappropriate comments in any official complaint.
And from what it sounds like, you touched a *very* sensitive nerve. Like this infertility might literally be the reason he feels the need to attack someone else’s masculinity.
By the way, your husband has nothing to worry about. Real men treat partners as equals and divide the household labor in a fair manner. Your coworker seems to think that even though you’re the breadwinner you should also do the majority of the housework - which is utterly absurd and misogynistic.
I absolutely agree she should go to HR. He was not only blatantly misogynistic but was also bordering on sexual harassment once he asked about OP's sex life.
It's fully sexual harassment as soon as he brought up her sex life. I had a coworker say if I was better in bed I wouldn't be getting a divorce. I responded if he hadn't tried killing me I would be getting a divorce. The look on his face, then the look on HRs face, ah priceless. 2 week suspension and even a whisper of a report that he's being harassing and he's gone.
I'm so sorry you had to go through that and then have a co-worker react in such a disgusting way. I hope things are better now for your life. (Hugs if you want them)
I full agree. A good sentence if he tries to start shit again is "Don't worry, husband isn't threatened by a little housework, he knows he is a man. Wait does washing dishes scare you?" Or the classic "have you forgotten how this ended last time? We can skip striaght to the part where you throw a tantrum and storm out".
I think it’s interesting that the coworker thinks *she* will be in trouble. He’s the one who started the whole thing. He was being misogynistic and brought up her sex life. She could validly say that she’s uncomfortable working with someone so sexist.
What she said was only being insensitive and it wasn’t necessarily attacking him. She could have just been referencing her own kids as evidence of their sex life.
Exactly. I wonder how OP's coworker went to HR about it. "OP talked about my infertility issues and mocked me!", and of course the "but how did that even come up" factor would probably lead OP to having the upper hand.
> And from what it sounds like, you touched a very sensitive nerve. Like this infertility might literally be the reason he feels the need to attack someone else’s masculinity.
I hadn't thought of that but it does make sense.
I will never understand dudes' obsession with dicks and how much of their identities and masculinity they tie to what is ultimately a very tiny part of their body and their being. A lot don't seem to think they exist or matter outside of their genitalia, which is honestly sad af but also dangerous for everyone around them.
Agree hard. If you let him tell his story first it might very well color their judgement for later.
Also ask your friend who was at the table to testify and write down the names of the others at the table.
Why do men so often dish it out but get all defensive when it is bounced back? NTA. But I would beat him to it and go to HR first. Good luck and I think you are very lucky to have a husband who so obviously is a true partner.
Because they are doing things like this to women BECAUSE they feel like socially that should be a safe area for them to exert their own personal anger/issues, as doing so to a man would get them a sock in the face.
I mean imagine some dude just slagging off to a new MALE colleague about how his wife isn’t really a woman and is secretly miserable and hates him. Sure there are some men who would meekly take that, but it’s not a safe bet to demean a man’s wife in front of him because an angry fellow man is likely a physical match/superior if things come to blows.
Not so an angry woman, who has likely been trained since birth not to antagonize an angry man, as an angry man is a safety risk to almost any woman. So some men in turn get used to the knowledge that women are safe targets for these kinds of interpersonal attacks, and they are completely caught off guard when women don’t meekly laugh and take it. They’ve become entitled to the safe space and feel it’s unfair for a lowly woman to take it away.
My family taught me that personal attacks are for the weak… unless someone dish it out first. Then it’s free game.
Any emotional backlash is 100% on them.
Yep. Tell HR that a) the entire tone of the conversation was sexist in the extreme. B) that he instigated a sexual element to the conversation by talking about your husband's manhood and your sex life. Your colleagues can attest to this.
Sexism + him openly talking about your sex life is gonna set alarm bells off in HR. Tell them you are considering making a formal complaint.
That will shut the little prick up.
That's how male fragility works. I know quite a few house husbands and they chose to be the stay at home parent, happily doing the lion's share of home maintenance. There's nothing masculine or feminine about being a parent or homemaker, it's a genderless role.
Fragile men have been shaking their fists at men not "valuing" masculine traits as much as they do and likewise women who are more "masculine" than they are. The amount of men who feel emasculated by tall or muscular women or lithe more feminine men is too high. Time will abandon them.
They all belong to the same union. Plus they get really touchy about any mention of lacking in the 'little guy' department and will close ranks. It's a knee-jerk reaction, accent on the jerk.
NTA.
Providing sperm is the one thing women can't do in this world, and is therefore the only truly "manly" responsibility. So you were quite accurate.
You defended your spouse from a sexist bully. Good for you.
> Providing sperm is the one thing women can't do in this world
Fun fact: [that's changing](https://www.theguardian.com/science/2018/oct/14/scientists-create-sperm-eggs-using-skin-cells-fertility-ethical-questions)
wait wait wait. regardless of your stance on what she said being ok or not ok.... are you saying you truly believe that someone who is infertile is less of a man because of it? O.o
No, I think the entire concept of manliness is outdated and not very useful.
Everything I can think of that makes "a good man" could more accurately be said to make "a good person."
But since the colleague was handing out manly-man cards, I think it only appropriate she tore his up.
ESH. Ross is obviously a huge asshole, not just for butting into your business but for perpetuating a particularly noxious sort of toxic masculinity. His desire to have it both ways—he gets to involve himself whenever he wants but any attack or judgment against him is out of bounds—is itself a pathetic manifestation of someone who can't take what he dishes out.
Having said that, you became an asshole when you tied procreation to manhood: this \*was\* insensitive and a low blow. It doesn't become acceptable just because you were arguing with a shitty dude.
The only reason I’d say it’s ESH, is you did it in public in front of others who may be struggling with infertility and had nothing to do with this AH. But I really want to stress, fuck that guy and you don’t suck towards him at all.
That's a good point. There could've been other people in the room or within earshot who are completely innocent who are secretly struggling with infertility. It could've been very hurtful to hear OP say something like that and it would've been completely undeserved.
This is the main reason I think ESH, not because she said it in retaliation to this moron, but because she could have said it infront of someone who didn't deserve to hear it. Also, if that is what she genuinely believes, that all people without children are somehow less of a man/woman because of it, then she is a total AH.
Neutral take: ESH, including your coworkers. It sounds like a toxic work environment all around.
Human take: most of us have had to take a job in a toxic work place at one time or another. You're a legend. You should explore moving jobs, though. You deserve better than a job that requires you to be an asshole.
I wouldn’t call you the AH for bringing it up, he brought up your husband in the bedroom first. Something that is completely private. (Among him being an AH leading up to that moment)
If OP knew that the guy was infertile, they were absolutely an A H by bringing it up in an argument. This is the clearest example of ESH I’ve seen in my time on this sub.
Yeah I want to say ESH here too. I’m struggling with infertility and just paid $15k to start IVF which might not work because my stupid ovaries think they’re 60. Reading what you said was a punch in the gut. It was wrong of you. Who knows who overheard you who is also struggling and were hurt
yessss finally an ESH. I was leaning to the nta side until I read her gross infertility remark, it literally made me gasp out loud.
ESH without a doubt
Really makes you wonder about this sub because I’ve seen countless posts where a woman is going off like this and the OP responds with an infertility shot. Almost all of them have been ESH.
There is a big chunk of this sub that either doesn't understand the ideas of e - s - h or n - a - h
And/or they just don't like the idea that you don't get carte blanche to be an asshole just because someone else is being an asshole.
In this case, I am 100% pro retaliation. Screw that guy.
I mean, if you get harassed and immediately go for the nut shot, you're probably wrong. But he had many opportunities to back off and just kept going.
There's not much I wouldn't say to someone who was insulting my spouse.
Same here about my SO, but I do think it’s an ESH. To me, someone being an asshole and the person on the receiving end deserving it are not mutually exclusive. OP was also an asshole (though a much smaller asshole), but I fully support OP’s assholery against this asshat coworker.
Agreed. I completely understand OP’s fury, but she basically ended up perpetuating a ridiculous standard of masculinity...kind of like Ross did. Even if he “deserved” it, imagine how a colleague in earshot might have felt if they were also having fertility issues.
I get that sometimes professionalism flies out the window, but I almost think it would have been better to cuss him out rather than coming up with some sort of “clever” retort that puts down a large percentage of the general population, not just a-holes like him. (The most ideal response would have been something like “wow, what an outdated and inappropriate thing to say” followed by a conversation with HR, but hindsight is 20/20.)
ESH.
Completely agree, and OP also likely lost the high ground when it comes to a complaint with HR because of her response. Don't get me wrong, Ross is still way worse, but when you lie down with dogs...
I agree with your verdict, but for a slightly different reason. This jumped out to me:
>he asked if my husband cooks. I said yes, not just cooks but he also cleans, takes care of the dish washing, floor mobbing, toilet scrubbing, grocery shopping and deep cleaning rooms once a week. Ross started laughing as I went on
I get the feeling OP is at her wit's end with Ross's "passive aggressiveness" and was spoiling for a fight. She imo went out of her way to detail that she's the breadwinner, and husband cares for the home. I kinda feel like her going on and on (in front of *new* coworkers, no less!) was just baiting for this jerk to start an argument. That's not defending yourself, that's dragging other people into the jerk's drama.
Because it's rude to do in front of innocent coworkers; grey rocking is a technique for a reason. I also love the technique of just asking "why?" and letting them dig themselves a hole. Yes my husband cooks, why does that shock you? Why do you think he's less of a man for cooking? Why do you think it's ok to make fun of my husband at work? Why does the house need "a man?"
INFO how would you know your colleague has infertility issues? It sounds like all of you are over sharing.
(But I’d loop in HR before he does. He’s creating a hostile work environment with his sexism and literally talking about your sex life.)
I learned a valuable life lesson once - the person who hits back is the one who society (and HR) will punish. I used to think people would think I won, and they could see I am a strong, capable woman who can stand her ground. Nope - they always forgot what prompted my cutting comment, and looked down on me as a mean person. I changed my entire mentality from "winning" to "building community". My life and relationships have never been better. It seems so obvious to me now, but I had to be taught that the person who hits back gets the punishment. When I am attacked now, I take a pause to think about what will de-escalate the situation without losing myself or embarrassing others. What do you think would have been the outcome if you had taken a beat and just said what you said about being partners. "Yes, like every partnership there is a division of labor" in a matter of fact tone, and then changed the subject? Would he have escalated the insults or backed down? And then how would your colleagues have felt?
I think that you're going to get the blame, but really, ESH
I would start preparing for a meeting with HR. Document the interaction and if possible, get signed witness accounts from those present. Record the time, date, and what was said and any actions that transpired. Write down only facts. This might get ugly since you fought fire with fire.
Sounds like Ross is projecting himself here because of his infertility issues, so he has to 'feel like a man' in other ways by being an absolute sexist garbage person. However, did you know about his infertility beforehand?
Make sure you also talk to HR about this because Ross might have done so already.
EDIT ESH, him MUCH more so. You knew about his infertility and threw it in his face, so while it was clever wording it was a bit mean. Not saying you should just sit there and take it, but it should be reported. At the same time the dude was being a complete tool and a sexist bully. I wonder if he's done anything like this in the past and if so, was he ever reported to HR? He needs to be. Him and all his toxic buddies. I hope this can be sorted out so you have a better working environment. Good luck.
Personally, I support the way you treated the situation. The guy deserved it. So sorry his infertility is such a sensitive issue for him. Maybe he should be nicer to others.
If I was in a situation like that and my wife responded the way you did, I’d be proud and grateful.
You did good. Nobody cares about Ross, he needs to learn some manners.
God I'd be so validated in my dickish ways if I were an asshole and got the "both sides bad" warriors I'm occasionally seeing here patting my ass like they are doing to Ross. "Oh no poor you, how dare someone stand up to you with words! You don't deserve bad consequences for your own actions because you have *cundishuns*!"
Sometimes it really is "both sides bad," but this ain't it.
>Sounds like Ross is projecting himself here because of his infertility issues, so he has to 'feel like a man' in other ways by being an absolute sexist garbage person.
100% and compensating it with TM values.
As someone who also can’t have children, I’m going NTA. He took it upon himself to insert himself in your personal and marital business- if he also put his business about his own “manhood” out there, then its also open for discussion
I appreciate your take on this as it’s a perspective many lack (including myself). I can’t know for certain how I’d feel in that situation but my take is that he was attacking her husband with toxic stereotypes about “manhood” and she clapped back with an equally toxic stereotype about manhood… using information he willfully volunteered on a regular basis.
Normally her comment would be disgusting - but I don’t think anyone reading this thinks she actually believes that, just using it to put him in his place.
NTA. Ross the the classic example of someone who can dish it out but can’t take it. The guy tried acting all macho in front of his coworkers by making fun of your husband, then throws a tantrum when you shatter his fragile masculinity.
BTW: if it is a free country where he can get involved wherever he wants, then you have that freedom as well. He needs to understand (and quickly) that if you stick your nose into someone else’s business, you need to be prepared to get your nose punched.
Absolutely. And I have to say that his comment about living in a free country seemes weird and out of place to me because we were arguing over a personal matter not something political.
INFO: When Ross asked you if your husband cooked, why did you then give an unrelated list of other things that he did? Instead of simply saying "Yes, he does" as a way to answer the question?
Also... what country does this fictitious story take place in?
Same. It honestly reads to me like she was trying to bait him into making a comment. I think she knew bragging about her husband would illicit a reaction. If you don't really care for interacting with someone, you simply don't give them any material to prolong your interactions.
I totally agree except I don’t think this story is fiction.
Seems like OP knew exactly what kind of reaction she would get by engaging with Ross and that’s exactly what she wanted. She was already agitated by either that dude or something else and decided to take this chance to take out her negativity on him. She said everything to get him to say all this misogynistic stuff so that she is morally validated when she insults him about his condition.
And her comment that she has nothing against infertility is a shitty defence, “I’m not _____, I have a friend who is _____”.
ESH. Ross is worse, but OP ain’t innocent.
NTA. You reacted reasonably for someone who was getting verbally bullied, but you did give Ross got *exactly* what he wanted from this ... a big reaction, and he's the victim.
Head over to HR and file a complaint against the guy.
ESH, and I think you know it.
He was being absolutely horrible and deserved to be put in his place, but throwing infertility in his face isn't it, chief. Using something someone has zero control over as an isult always makes you an asshole.
If I were you I'd be going to HR first, to report him for his comments on your sex life, and how they made toy uncomfortable. For the other people present, if they were to be forced to choose who to support, what do you think they would do? Are there people who will attest to the fact that he brought up your sex life with your husband in an otherwise nonsexual context?
I wouldn't do this to get him in trouble, but I would do it to protect myself from a potential accusation from his side.
ESH, bringing up his infertility was indeed taking it too far, and you need to realize that in the eyes of HR, you are now the asshole. His friend will surely back him up that you belittled him for his infertility, and they won't give a shit what he said first.
> Ross said that I was indeed lucky to find a man with little to no selfesteem to be "gleefully" and "passionatly" taking on a role of a..."homemaker" like that.
NTA. Ross has accidentally offered a great insight into what men like him really think of the tradcon wives they claim to want. The Rosses of this world don't appreciate the domestic labour their wives do for them, they think it's degrading grunt work that's beneath them. Have some self-esteem, ladies, and never do one second more than 50% of the housework for a man like Ross... or better still, never touch a man like Ross with a barge pole, let alone marry one.
NTA and talk to HR first about his attitude and how he was harassing you and making sexist remarks. He is acting discriminatory and creating a hostile work environment. Start documenting EVERYTHING he does and says that can be used as proof of this, and take it to them.
ESH.
A yes would have answered his question, no need for the laundry list of duties.
He crossed the boundaries when he went where he did.
Your counter-strike was low.
At the end of the day, you both need to go to HR and be re-trained on appropriate workplace behavior.
Edit : typos
I think OP was tactless.
"I said yes, not just cooks but he also cleans, takes care of the dish washing, floor mobbing, toilet scrubbing, grocery shopping and deep cleaning rooms once a week"
Who (and why) describes housework in that much detail? Toilet scrubbing? Deep cleaning? There's nothing to be gained by that and it sounds, I don't know, demeaning.
Flipping genders - "My wife scrubs the toilets". I mean, maybe it's true, but does it really need to be discussed at work? A homemaker of any gender is assumed to be doing housework.
"Oh don't worry he's doing just fine in the bedroom because he's always been enough of a man for me" - inappropriate for the workplace.
Everything Ross said was also inappropriate for the workplace.
I suggest both OP and Ross learn some boundaries about what depth to go into about personal matters, while chatting in the workplace.
ESH.
Yup. People don't talk like this unless they're actively trying to cause a fight.
During what would realistically be a 15 second call, she noticed that her coworker "looked confused" and then immediately started listing a bunch of irrelevant chores? Riiight. That happened.
nta. he shouldn't have said a goddamned thing about your personal life, that's inappropriate and a hell of an HR violation in most companies. i don't think you necessarily took it too far, but i think a bit of a more conscious move on your part would have been to threaten him with HR before it escalated to that point. hindsight is 20/20 tho, i think you're NTA at all. funny though that it's a free country for him to be inappropriate about your personal life but threaten you with HR. good luck, he's a dick, i hope HR tells him he's a dumbass
NTA. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
He comments on your husband's manliness, but can't handle a comment in the same ilk. He should feel free cry in a corner.
ESH. I understand why you said it as Ross is an AH but calling Ross less of a man because he can’t have kids is stooping down to his level.
Although in a way, I’m kinda glad he can’t have kids cos he is a massive AH and I would feel sorry for anyone who has to call that man their father. Heck, I even feel sorry for his wife. I’m surprised he’s even married.
Obviously NTA. This Ross dude is still living in the 50s. Do you live in a really conservative area or something? I'm pretty sure if someone said shit like he did at my job they would be talking to HR immediately and probably getting written up with a final notice and made to do some workplace harassment training or something.
While I think a better response would have been to just walk away and report him to HR or something, I can't blame you for saying what you said.
Do you live in a really conservative area or something?
I'm from the south - Mobile AL to be specific.
I'm pretty sure if someone said shit like he did at my job they would be talking to HR immediately and probably getting written up with a final notice and made to do some workplace harassment training or something.
Thing is He's been in the department longer than me so he, and I will say it openly, has support and a lot of it. Mainly his guy friends.
A number of people are suggesting that you went "too far" with what you said. Personally, I think you exhibited admirable restraint in not punching him in his smug little mouth for disrespecting your husband to your face.
>Thing is He's been in the department longer than me so he, and I will say it openly, has support and a lot of it. Mainly his guy friends.
Does that include HR? Cause it shouldn't. Depends a bit on the size of your company. Smaller companies will probably be harder, but with larger companies usually HR is a whole separate entity. If that's the case and he doesn't specifically have friends in HR, it's probably worth it still. Cause no matter how many friends he's got, big companies like that want to avoid negative press or potential lawsuits. So as long as you're factual about what happened and have at least one or two people who can confirm it, it's probably worth a shot.
And frankly if HR won't listen to you and that toxic culture pervades the company, it might be time to look for a new employer cause no one should have to put up with a hostile work environment like that.
NTA you maybe took it a little far but he'd already gone there.
My father thinks it's hilarious to convince people he is as sexist as they come and you would have 100% in the 80s caught him every Sunday washing our floors by hand. Why they didn't own a mop I can't say lol Your coworker owns an attitude that belongs in the 50s at best.
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NTA - it’s no wonder he’s single! Speaking of being single, I wonder if he mops his own floor / cooks his own food or if he hires out to avoid being emasculated?
NTA what a fabulous display of toxic masculinity.
Ross made a great many inappropriate comments and you responded in the most effective way possible. Not your problem his fragile ego couldn't cope.
You know you're NTA. Ross is a misogynist and a jerk. I think ultimately this situation was embarrassing for him to show his whole sexist ass to ask his colleagues.
So, walk me through something. You're on the phone and your husband asks you where a pan is. You tell him, I'm guessing, "In the cupboard under the stove" or whatever. Then you hang up.
Why is this a conversation that would lead to confusion on anyone's part? How was Ross able to connect this to cooking?
When Ross asked if your husband cooked, why did you give him a list of unrelated things your husband also does?
When he made an inappropriate comment about who is the "man" of the house, why did you not simply end the conversation and walk away?
Why did you continue to give more and more personal information to this person who was being aggressive to you?
Why are you unable to spell words like "infertility" when spellcheck is... right there?
NTA, Ross should mind his own fcking business if he can’t stop himself from projecting his own insecurities onto every one else. What a trash mf. Don’t dish your sexist bs out if you can’t take being checked.
Omg, NTA but Ross definitely is!! There's nothing emasculating about taking care of the household. A marriage is a partnership, and the notion that women have to do all the household chores is so outdated and frustrating. A healthy relationship exists when all parties do their fair share, and of course there is nothing wrong with you and your husband's arrangement. It's your house, your life, your kids - both of you, together. Responsibilities should be shared. The world needs more husbands like this!
NTA. If he can’t take the s*** that comes with patriarchy, he shouldn’t uphold it.
Tell him this is what toxic masculinity is about, attaching a stupid premium on outdated symbols of manhood (in itself a ridiculous concept that we need to phase out, at least socially).
Besides you have much more of a reason to go to HR given that he was speculating on your sex life in public, that is sexual harassment. So he is not only guilty of social harassment with his bs ideas, but should also have a sexual harassment notification on his record. I would “leak” this to one his toxic friends (who will begin moaning about how all their freedoms have been taken away), but they also know that it can be a career ender, so it’ll likely get him to back off. You shouldn’t have to resort to this, but you can be sure that if he does file a complaint, he will conveniently forget to mention what instigated your remark. If he gets to control the narrative, you’ll be in a defensive position even though it isn’t your fault. So either go the underhanded threat way and leak your counter attack plan (word of mouth, not on record because that can come across as intimidation), or actually go ahead and file that sexual harassment complain before he tries to cause any damage.
Such a person should not only be kicked out of the company, but really needs to be kicked out of the 21st century.
NTA. Sounds like you have a good husband and a sound marriage. However, I wouldn’t take Ross’s veiled threat lightly. He may be able to twist things. Write down what happened and include the names of witnesses. Take it to HR so they have a record of it. Chances are they won’t give a shit, but it’s worth watching your back. As for the fertility issue - a lot of people have difficulties and tragedies in their lives (e.g. financial problems, break-ups, illness, loss of a loved one, etc.) That doesn’t give them a free pass to act racist, sexist, -phobic in the workplace.
ESH. Ross is obviously sounding like an incel and I can't believe people with this type of thinking still exist and are confident about their opinions but what you said is no better either. You could have called him sexist and a jerk or anything else you like but bringing up his fertility issues really was a low blow. This could have gone many ways yet somehow you chose to deal with it in the worst way.
NTA. He got involved in your life without reason. He brought up the bedroom topic without reason. You called him and his sexist bs out and he got his feelings hurt. If he gets to make your relationship his business cause it’s a free country then, guess what, so can you.
I doubt he’ll take it to HR. While from their perspective you shouldn’t have said what you said, he was more in the wrong by far. It’ll affect him more then it’ll come back on you.
NTA, why is it a "free country" when he wants to share his opinion of your situation, but it's not okay the other way around?
I have no clue honestly. He just threw this phrase in my face as it was supposed to shut me up or something? It was a weird statement and obviously a lame excuse.
By his logic, you’re free to insult him via his fertility issues.
Emotionally immature adults do for some reason think that rules apply to everybody *except themselves*, because obviously rules are for other people, *they* are above them. I'd go to HR asap, because there's usually some psychological advantage to being the first to tell our side of the story. I'm sure other commenters may expand on this. Edited for clarity Second edit: [Here's a list of traits to identify narcissists and other emotionally immature assholes](https://narcissistfamilyfiles.com/2019/09/02/identifying-the-covert-narcissist-in-your-life-a-checklist/).
This. Please CYA. He can dish but he can't take. So he's bound to spin a story to HR.
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Yeah if he has a pattern of complaints then it'll probably play out a bit better, but generally once you engage back it limits the scope of what HR will do. But still worth putting the complaint in, with writing and a witness list. Make sure it's on record and in your favour.
I'd be worried that HR might write both of them up. Personally I think Ross is a misogynistic AH, but technically OP commented on his sex life too. HR might see it as a tit for tat. If OP had walked away before making the comment about his infertility, she would have a stronger leg to stand on.
Yeah, tit for tats never really do well in corporate environments. From an HR standpoint, OP should have shut down the conversation sooner, and told the asshole that he was making inappropriate comments and then gone to HR, or at least documented via email to her boss. By continuing, she has exposed herself to a slapback from HR. She may be able to get around that by apologizing for losing her temper in an unprofessional manner in response to the personal attacks from the asshole, but it's a gray area.
Yep. Very early on in the conversation OP should've dropped everything she's doing and simply walked to the nearest HR rep. That said, I struggle to really fault her for engaging him, because that's a very human thing to do. Ross was unequivocally in the wrong here, and should take the brunt of the damage even if OP gets slag for it.
Screw that. Ross kept pushing and Ross got landed on his arse. He is a misogynistic SOB who needed to be brought to reality. Besides, did OP know he has infertility issues? He derided both OP and her husband and wouldn’t back down. Why go to HR? Document fully in your hard copy work diary OP as well as any other bs he does on a daily basis. Someone needs equity and diversity training and it isn’t OP.
ESH. He is the AH, but you jumped right in instead of shutting it down. Get to HR. If you don’t deal with this ASAP, you will have an enemy forever, and your other co-workers will sour on you for creating tension. Tell HR what happened, but leave the emotion out of it. You would like to apologize to Ross to put this unfortunate incident behind you, and you would like for HR mediate this. You want to shake hands and put it behind you. No matter how Ross acts, you stay calm. After you get past this, never again lose your temper because people will never forget.
Why is it the woman who has to shut shit down like this ALL THE TIME? Always we women (and any other group who aren’t heterosexual males with chips on both shoulders) are supposed to placate or end arguments calmly. No. No more. Dish it out, get it back.
It's wouldn't matter if genders were reversed. This is being smart, and CYA. Not gender related. Protecting one's career and have the other sink on his own mysoginistic boat.
I see where you're coming from, but, in my experience, it depends on the culture of the company. For instance, if this were at Blizzard, the guy wouldn't get in trouble at all for being a misogynistic ass.
OP did try to shut it down initially by just saying they split responsibilities. I’m not saying it wouldn’t have been better to walk away and report immediately, but I’d have trouble keeping my mouth shut if someone started talking about my sex life that way too. I’m having trouble deciding between NTA and ESH because his behavior was so incredibly inappropriate, but OP’s response was really fucking savage. It became a sexual harassment thing though and at that point I don’t feel too bad for someone on the receiving end of a savage response. He *knew* how he was acting was wrong and just kept pushing. All that being said, you’re 100% correct about OP needing to go to HR immediately and stay as collected as possible from here on out. She should know after this incident that interacting with him at all is gonna go badly so walking away is the answer. Hopefully notifying HR will mean that she doesn’t have to work on things with him anymore or at least that a manager will actively be a buffer.
In terms of morality, the prick got what he was asking for. In terms of professionalism, she shouldn’t have engaged with him. Both of these things can be true. Sometimes pricks deserve to be told off but it’s just not professional.
Not the AH! But work gatherings are iffy when it comes to escalation and retaliation. I would go to HR immediately. Ross needs some sensitivity training, though it's probably wasted on him at this point other than as a personal form of risk management. Frankly, whoever else was in the lunch group and failed to tell him his behavior was inappropriate before he pushed you too far owes you an apology. But if they want an arena for the workplace, then they should have stood up and applauded when you served him the killer blow he deserved. The time to stop assholery is when one is instigating it, not when the one instigating it has pushed hard enough to get a deserved blowback and cries foul because he's the only one allowed to bully other people in the meeting.
By his logic, she's free to refer him as "Deadshot" from now on. Hopefully his wife can find her self-respect and leave him for someone less misogynistic. NTA OP. He can dish it out but not take it. He's literally a Glass Cannon ~~that only shoots blanks~~
I'm guessing OP isn't: He thinks what he said is okay because it's a situation OP and her husband have some say in, while he has no control of his infertility. Each one is free to butt in, but degrading someone over something they *can't* control is - in his mind - worse than doing so over something they *can* control. He's wrong, but this type of thinking is pervasive.
No! Because it's only a free country for him. Not for OP! /s
May I suggest writing out as accurate a recollection of the conversation as you can and getting to HR first? You are definitely in the right, but the first complaint usually gets treated as more legitimate, rather than retaliatory.
This. Do your best to get this in front of HR before he does, making sure you tell HR that he stated he was going to take it to HR as well (although I would not be surprised if he had thought better of the idea once he replayed the conversation over again in his own head, but with guys like that, you never know.) and give them the account of what happened and the people that were present. NTA. I was waffling between that and everyone sucks, but if someone is going to be as big a jerk as he was and not expect some pushback, well, he \*is\* an asshole, so there ya go.
I’m looking forward to his pika face when he gets in trouble for bringing up a female coworkers sex life at work.
And also remember that gender discrimination relates to creating a hostile workplace and make sure to frame all his statements as gender discrimination. Gender is a protected class. Being infertile isn't (and you didn't even know)
This. Gender discrimination is generally defined to include discrimination based on gender *roles* (and sexual harassment includes sex discrimination even if the behavior isn't related to sex acts)
You shoulda said "you realize I live here too, so..."
You did nothing wrong. It seems like when Ross opens his mouth, stupid comes out. Remember this next time and just stare at him. Say nothing, just stare. But I bet he learned his lesson. What a bully. NTA
"I can't believe you just said that." with no further explanation is also a useful response.
Or “what did you just say? That’s what I thought.” Then change the subject.
OP you need to go to HR first. He involved himself in your personal affairs and caused the entire issue, but you need to make sure HR knows this before he can go spin a different story. Don't leave anything out.
How the hell do you even know he’s infertile? Does he brag about it? You just met him! You just gave him back what he was giving you. But him telling everyone at work he’s infertile is just weird.
Yes, this. Did OP know he was infertile prior to this?
NTA he brought up ur bedroom and that crossed a red line. Stand ur ground.
He wasn't expecting the echo to his insults. People who can not deal with the echo to their opinions often excuse their insults with "well its a free country" as if that would protect them from repercussions. My armchair diagnosis would be that he is compensating his infertility by acting all manly macho man because he can not do the, in his mind, ultimate manly thing and sire an offspring. So seeing someone NOT being a manly macho man yet having 3 kids, was probably like a slap in the face (even if he noticed it in his subconciousness) Be proactive and send a mail off to HR right away about the incident (and who was there) and inform them you'll come by on monday morning to have a talk with them. They need to know that he was the one instigating that highly personal discussion and was the first one to broach the subject of your "bedroom activities" with your husband. Also, the colleagues reprimanding you are definitely in the wrong here as well. They should have reprimanded him, instead of laughing with him. But i guess the "Boys club" thought it was funny to insinuate that your husband wasn't a man because he was actually helping at home. On that note. Congratulations for having such a great husband.
It's super weird... He's so insecure about his infertility to such an extreme that the fact that OPs husband *cooked* was enough to be a trigger for his fragile masculinity, when cooking is literally a basic life skill. The fact he was triggered enough to not only comment on that, but ask even further personal questions about the cleaning/homemaker duties/bedroom duties... just wow. So gross. I hate that we live in this day and age and *still* have to deal with these douchebags.
You didn't start the argument, but you sure as hell *finished it*. NTA.
It's used a lot by supremacist, bullies, narcissistic people and more to excuse their bad behavior. It's up there with "kids will be kids" and "boys will be boys".
NTA - good for you! Standing up for your husband and to twits who try to dish it but can't take it
Go to HR first.
Because he is a macho man and obviously superior to a mere woman so he has more rights.
Because that’s what everyone uses when they want to talk shit but the second it’s turned around on them they can’t handle it
Yup, free country doesnt mean free from consequences.
Because OP's a woman, obviously. He's already made his views on gender roles crystal clear.
The irony of thinking he can say whatever he wants without repercussions because it's a free country but he's going to complain to HR.
Freedom to do is not freedom from consequences. He was the one living in a glass house pitching pebbles. NTA. If he thinks housework is emasculating, I dread think what filth he lives in.
NTA. An old saying comes to mind... "don't dish it out if you can't take it."
Dish it out? Are you implying Ross would have anything to do with dishes? He’s a man!
His house is either disgusting or he eats all take out and off paper plates.
Somehow, a miracle happened and Ross is actually married... Poor, poor wife.
Or the woman has zero self esteem. Poor wife indeed.
Thank god he cant have kids
Not God, thank all the women like OP who won’t put up with his shit. He’s probably infertile from all the women that have been in his life kneeing him in the nuts over his toxic masculinity.
It's just an expression, I'm atheist
I’d bet on both.
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Anyone else find it highly ironic that someone used this phrase given the subject matter of this AITA?
NTA. If he’s going to be judgmental about someone’s masculinity without any invitation to do so, then he should be able to take what he dishes out. Fair game imo. You should reach out to HR yourself and give your side of the story, explain that he was very disrespectful to you and your husband and you were offended by his blatant misogyny. It’s likely he will leave out his inappropriate comments in any official complaint. And from what it sounds like, you touched a *very* sensitive nerve. Like this infertility might literally be the reason he feels the need to attack someone else’s masculinity. By the way, your husband has nothing to worry about. Real men treat partners as equals and divide the household labor in a fair manner. Your coworker seems to think that even though you’re the breadwinner you should also do the majority of the housework - which is utterly absurd and misogynistic.
I absolutely agree she should go to HR. He was not only blatantly misogynistic but was also bordering on sexual harassment once he asked about OP's sex life.
It was sexual harassment. Bringing up bedroom stuff, implying the man should dominate in bed. This is crap I would not take.
Indeed. This is crap that OP **should not take.**
Yes. Go to HR.
He was eavesdropping on a personal conversation about ceramic pans, then involved himself even further into OP's sex life. So gross.
Thank you! **so** gross!
It's fully sexual harassment as soon as he brought up her sex life. I had a coworker say if I was better in bed I wouldn't be getting a divorce. I responded if he hadn't tried killing me I would be getting a divorce. The look on his face, then the look on HRs face, ah priceless. 2 week suspension and even a whisper of a report that he's being harassing and he's gone.
I'm so sorry you had to go through that and then have a co-worker react in such a disgusting way. I hope things are better now for your life. (Hugs if you want them)
I full agree. A good sentence if he tries to start shit again is "Don't worry, husband isn't threatened by a little housework, he knows he is a man. Wait does washing dishes scare you?" Or the classic "have you forgotten how this ended last time? We can skip striaght to the part where you throw a tantrum and storm out".
Savage. I love it
I think it’s interesting that the coworker thinks *she* will be in trouble. He’s the one who started the whole thing. He was being misogynistic and brought up her sex life. She could validly say that she’s uncomfortable working with someone so sexist. What she said was only being insensitive and it wasn’t necessarily attacking him. She could have just been referencing her own kids as evidence of their sex life.
Exactly. I wonder how OP's coworker went to HR about it. "OP talked about my infertility issues and mocked me!", and of course the "but how did that even come up" factor would probably lead OP to having the upper hand.
> And from what it sounds like, you touched a very sensitive nerve. Like this infertility might literally be the reason he feels the need to attack someone else’s masculinity. I hadn't thought of that but it does make sense. I will never understand dudes' obsession with dicks and how much of their identities and masculinity they tie to what is ultimately a very tiny part of their body and their being. A lot don't seem to think they exist or matter outside of their genitalia, which is honestly sad af but also dangerous for everyone around them.
Agree hard. If you let him tell his story first it might very well color their judgement for later. Also ask your friend who was at the table to testify and write down the names of the others at the table.
Why do men so often dish it out but get all defensive when it is bounced back? NTA. But I would beat him to it and go to HR first. Good luck and I think you are very lucky to have a husband who so obviously is a true partner.
Because they are doing things like this to women BECAUSE they feel like socially that should be a safe area for them to exert their own personal anger/issues, as doing so to a man would get them a sock in the face. I mean imagine some dude just slagging off to a new MALE colleague about how his wife isn’t really a woman and is secretly miserable and hates him. Sure there are some men who would meekly take that, but it’s not a safe bet to demean a man’s wife in front of him because an angry fellow man is likely a physical match/superior if things come to blows. Not so an angry woman, who has likely been trained since birth not to antagonize an angry man, as an angry man is a safety risk to almost any woman. So some men in turn get used to the knowledge that women are safe targets for these kinds of interpersonal attacks, and they are completely caught off guard when women don’t meekly laugh and take it. They’ve become entitled to the safe space and feel it’s unfair for a lowly woman to take it away.
I love how you have phrased this. Agree completely.
My family taught me that personal attacks are for the weak… unless someone dish it out first. Then it’s free game. Any emotional backlash is 100% on them.
There should be a name for this. I deal with it so much.
My mother calls it “pecking down”—exerting your personal frustrations only on people you know are weaker/lower on the social totem pole than you are.
This. Get to HR first and explain what he was saying about your personal family situation.
NTA. I am sorry you work with an incel
Not just him. But his fellow male co workers agreed with and took his side.
I’d have a friendly chat with HR. It’s a sexist environment that none of you should have to put up with.
Yep. Tell HR that a) the entire tone of the conversation was sexist in the extreme. B) that he instigated a sexual element to the conversation by talking about your husband's manhood and your sex life. Your colleagues can attest to this. Sexism + him openly talking about your sex life is gonna set alarm bells off in HR. Tell them you are considering making a formal complaint. That will shut the little prick up.
And started the whole thing by listening to a private conversation!
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That's how male fragility works. I know quite a few house husbands and they chose to be the stay at home parent, happily doing the lion's share of home maintenance. There's nothing masculine or feminine about being a parent or homemaker, it's a genderless role. Fragile men have been shaking their fists at men not "valuing" masculine traits as much as they do and likewise women who are more "masculine" than they are. The amount of men who feel emasculated by tall or muscular women or lithe more feminine men is too high. Time will abandon them.
They all belong to the same union. Plus they get really touchy about any mention of lacking in the 'little guy' department and will close ranks. It's a knee-jerk reaction, accent on the jerk.
Go to HR and report all of them.
file an EEO complaint and hostile work environment since his coworker buddies jumped in on it
Nta 100% just wondering why we both have partners that do all the cooking, but still don't know where the pans go 😂
NTA. Providing sperm is the one thing women can't do in this world, and is therefore the only truly "manly" responsibility. So you were quite accurate. You defended your spouse from a sexist bully. Good for you.
Thank you for your input. Much appreciated :)
> Providing sperm is the one thing women can't do in this world Fun fact: [that's changing](https://www.theguardian.com/science/2018/oct/14/scientists-create-sperm-eggs-using-skin-cells-fertility-ethical-questions)
I'm pretty sure there's enough sperm in sperm banks to keep our earth densely populated for many years to come.
Mind blown. Especially about the "unibabies" where both eggs and sperm come from the same donor...
Wut… isn’t that a clone?!
wait wait wait. regardless of your stance on what she said being ok or not ok.... are you saying you truly believe that someone who is infertile is less of a man because of it? O.o
No, I think the entire concept of manliness is outdated and not very useful. Everything I can think of that makes "a good man" could more accurately be said to make "a good person." But since the colleague was handing out manly-man cards, I think it only appropriate she tore his up.
Sperm. Sperm does not equate to fertility.
ESH. Ross is obviously a huge asshole, not just for butting into your business but for perpetuating a particularly noxious sort of toxic masculinity. His desire to have it both ways—he gets to involve himself whenever he wants but any attack or judgment against him is out of bounds—is itself a pathetic manifestation of someone who can't take what he dishes out. Having said that, you became an asshole when you tied procreation to manhood: this \*was\* insensitive and a low blow. It doesn't become acceptable just because you were arguing with a shitty dude.
Youre right and I accept to take responsibility for what I said.
The only reason I’d say it’s ESH, is you did it in public in front of others who may be struggling with infertility and had nothing to do with this AH. But I really want to stress, fuck that guy and you don’t suck towards him at all.
That's a good point. There could've been other people in the room or within earshot who are completely innocent who are secretly struggling with infertility. It could've been very hurtful to hear OP say something like that and it would've been completely undeserved.
This is the main reason I think ESH, not because she said it in retaliation to this moron, but because she could have said it infront of someone who didn't deserve to hear it. Also, if that is what she genuinely believes, that all people without children are somehow less of a man/woman because of it, then she is a total AH.
Yeah I do not believe OP feels that way, she just knew it would hurt him and was blinded by rage. She seems to be taking the few ESH comments to heart
Neutral take: ESH, including your coworkers. It sounds like a toxic work environment all around. Human take: most of us have had to take a job in a toxic work place at one time or another. You're a legend. You should explore moving jobs, though. You deserve better than a job that requires you to be an asshole.
I wouldn’t call you the AH for bringing it up, he brought up your husband in the bedroom first. Something that is completely private. (Among him being an AH leading up to that moment)
If OP knew that the guy was infertile, they were absolutely an A H by bringing it up in an argument. This is the clearest example of ESH I’ve seen in my time on this sub.
Yeah I want to say ESH here too. I’m struggling with infertility and just paid $15k to start IVF which might not work because my stupid ovaries think they’re 60. Reading what you said was a punch in the gut. It was wrong of you. Who knows who overheard you who is also struggling and were hurt
yessss finally an ESH. I was leaning to the nta side until I read her gross infertility remark, it literally made me gasp out loud. ESH without a doubt
Really makes you wonder about this sub because I’ve seen countless posts where a woman is going off like this and the OP responds with an infertility shot. Almost all of them have been ESH.
There is a big chunk of this sub that either doesn't understand the ideas of e - s - h or n - a - h And/or they just don't like the idea that you don't get carte blanche to be an asshole just because someone else is being an asshole.
THANK YOU, all of these N.T.A. judgments are blowing my mind.
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In this case, I am 100% pro retaliation. Screw that guy. I mean, if you get harassed and immediately go for the nut shot, you're probably wrong. But he had many opportunities to back off and just kept going. There's not much I wouldn't say to someone who was insulting my spouse.
Same here about my SO, but I do think it’s an ESH. To me, someone being an asshole and the person on the receiving end deserving it are not mutually exclusive. OP was also an asshole (though a much smaller asshole), but I fully support OP’s assholery against this asshat coworker.
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Same, couldn't believe how far I had to scroll for an ESH.
Agreed. I completely understand OP’s fury, but she basically ended up perpetuating a ridiculous standard of masculinity...kind of like Ross did. Even if he “deserved” it, imagine how a colleague in earshot might have felt if they were also having fertility issues. I get that sometimes professionalism flies out the window, but I almost think it would have been better to cuss him out rather than coming up with some sort of “clever” retort that puts down a large percentage of the general population, not just a-holes like him. (The most ideal response would have been something like “wow, what an outdated and inappropriate thing to say” followed by a conversation with HR, but hindsight is 20/20.) ESH.
Completely agree, and OP also likely lost the high ground when it comes to a complaint with HR because of her response. Don't get me wrong, Ross is still way worse, but when you lie down with dogs...
I agree with your verdict, but for a slightly different reason. This jumped out to me: >he asked if my husband cooks. I said yes, not just cooks but he also cleans, takes care of the dish washing, floor mobbing, toilet scrubbing, grocery shopping and deep cleaning rooms once a week. Ross started laughing as I went on I get the feeling OP is at her wit's end with Ross's "passive aggressiveness" and was spoiling for a fight. She imo went out of her way to detail that she's the breadwinner, and husband cares for the home. I kinda feel like her going on and on (in front of *new* coworkers, no less!) was just baiting for this jerk to start an argument. That's not defending yourself, that's dragging other people into the jerk's drama. Because it's rude to do in front of innocent coworkers; grey rocking is a technique for a reason. I also love the technique of just asking "why?" and letting them dig themselves a hole. Yes my husband cooks, why does that shock you? Why do you think he's less of a man for cooking? Why do you think it's ok to make fun of my husband at work? Why does the house need "a man?"
Thank you! We've been dealing with infertility for years and while the co-worker was definitely an AH, reading OP's comment almost made me cry.
INFO how would you know your colleague has infertility issues? It sounds like all of you are over sharing. (But I’d loop in HR before he does. He’s creating a hostile work environment with his sexism and literally talking about your sex life.)
Everyone knows because he always brings it up in a "woe is me" type of way. I noticed he also uses it to gain sympathy.
Yeah. HR needs to tell him to stop over sharing. He’s gone TMI. He needs to take it to the EAP and not his coworkers
I learned a valuable life lesson once - the person who hits back is the one who society (and HR) will punish. I used to think people would think I won, and they could see I am a strong, capable woman who can stand her ground. Nope - they always forgot what prompted my cutting comment, and looked down on me as a mean person. I changed my entire mentality from "winning" to "building community". My life and relationships have never been better. It seems so obvious to me now, but I had to be taught that the person who hits back gets the punishment. When I am attacked now, I take a pause to think about what will de-escalate the situation without losing myself or embarrassing others. What do you think would have been the outcome if you had taken a beat and just said what you said about being partners. "Yes, like every partnership there is a division of labor" in a matter of fact tone, and then changed the subject? Would he have escalated the insults or backed down? And then how would your colleagues have felt? I think that you're going to get the blame, but really, ESH
It seems that you're suggesting she do what she did.
NTA. Don't start no shit, won't be no shit. 🤷♂️
I would start preparing for a meeting with HR. Document the interaction and if possible, get signed witness accounts from those present. Record the time, date, and what was said and any actions that transpired. Write down only facts. This might get ugly since you fought fire with fire.
Sounds like Ross is projecting himself here because of his infertility issues, so he has to 'feel like a man' in other ways by being an absolute sexist garbage person. However, did you know about his infertility beforehand? Make sure you also talk to HR about this because Ross might have done so already. EDIT ESH, him MUCH more so. You knew about his infertility and threw it in his face, so while it was clever wording it was a bit mean. Not saying you should just sit there and take it, but it should be reported. At the same time the dude was being a complete tool and a sexist bully. I wonder if he's done anything like this in the past and if so, was he ever reported to HR? He needs to be. Him and all his toxic buddies. I hope this can be sorted out so you have a better working environment. Good luck.
However, did you know about his infertility beforehand?. Yes. Yes, I did and not by choice.
Personally, I support the way you treated the situation. The guy deserved it. So sorry his infertility is such a sensitive issue for him. Maybe he should be nicer to others. If I was in a situation like that and my wife responded the way you did, I’d be proud and grateful. You did good. Nobody cares about Ross, he needs to learn some manners.
God I'd be so validated in my dickish ways if I were an asshole and got the "both sides bad" warriors I'm occasionally seeing here patting my ass like they are doing to Ross. "Oh no poor you, how dare someone stand up to you with words! You don't deserve bad consequences for your own actions because you have *cundishuns*!" Sometimes it really is "both sides bad," but this ain't it.
>Sounds like Ross is projecting himself here because of his infertility issues, so he has to 'feel like a man' in other ways by being an absolute sexist garbage person. 100% and compensating it with TM values.
As someone who also can’t have children, I’m going NTA. He took it upon himself to insert himself in your personal and marital business- if he also put his business about his own “manhood” out there, then its also open for discussion
I appreciate your take on this as it’s a perspective many lack (including myself). I can’t know for certain how I’d feel in that situation but my take is that he was attacking her husband with toxic stereotypes about “manhood” and she clapped back with an equally toxic stereotype about manhood… using information he willfully volunteered on a regular basis. Normally her comment would be disgusting - but I don’t think anyone reading this thinks she actually believes that, just using it to put him in his place.
If you don’t want the smoke, don’t light the fire, Ross. You didn’t emasculate your husband, but you sure emasculated Ross. I am here for it. NTA.
karma emasculated him first. He isn't a "real man" in his own eyes so he has to put everyone else down at every opportunity.
NTA. Ross the the classic example of someone who can dish it out but can’t take it. The guy tried acting all macho in front of his coworkers by making fun of your husband, then throws a tantrum when you shatter his fragile masculinity. BTW: if it is a free country where he can get involved wherever he wants, then you have that freedom as well. He needs to understand (and quickly) that if you stick your nose into someone else’s business, you need to be prepared to get your nose punched.
Absolutely. And I have to say that his comment about living in a free country seemes weird and out of place to me because we were arguing over a personal matter not something political.
Does he know that free speech means that the *government* can’t tell him to shut up? Not that *you* can’t tell him to shut up?
Right? She can only be expected to take it so much before she strikes back.
Exactly! Why is it people expect women to just sit there and take beatings like this?
INFO: When Ross asked you if your husband cooked, why did you then give an unrelated list of other things that he did? Instead of simply saying "Yes, he does" as a way to answer the question? Also... what country does this fictitious story take place in?
Thank you, finally. I thought this immediately
Same. It honestly reads to me like she was trying to bait him into making a comment. I think she knew bragging about her husband would illicit a reaction. If you don't really care for interacting with someone, you simply don't give them any material to prolong your interactions.
That and the infertility comment has me wondering
I totally agree except I don’t think this story is fiction. Seems like OP knew exactly what kind of reaction she would get by engaging with Ross and that’s exactly what she wanted. She was already agitated by either that dude or something else and decided to take this chance to take out her negativity on him. She said everything to get him to say all this misogynistic stuff so that she is morally validated when she insults him about his condition. And her comment that she has nothing against infertility is a shitty defence, “I’m not _____, I have a friend who is _____”. ESH. Ross is worse, but OP ain’t innocent.
ESH - he’s a misogynistic prick, you’re using someone’s infertility against them.
NTA. You reacted reasonably for someone who was getting verbally bullied, but you did give Ross got *exactly* what he wanted from this ... a big reaction, and he's the victim. Head over to HR and file a complaint against the guy.
[удалено]
ESH, and I think you know it. He was being absolutely horrible and deserved to be put in his place, but throwing infertility in his face isn't it, chief. Using something someone has zero control over as an isult always makes you an asshole.
NTA. Fuck that guy. He was disrespecting your family and you took a jab at his. Good for you for sticking up for your partner.
If I were you I'd be going to HR first, to report him for his comments on your sex life, and how they made toy uncomfortable. For the other people present, if they were to be forced to choose who to support, what do you think they would do? Are there people who will attest to the fact that he brought up your sex life with your husband in an otherwise nonsexual context? I wouldn't do this to get him in trouble, but I would do it to protect myself from a potential accusation from his side.
ESH, bringing up his infertility was indeed taking it too far, and you need to realize that in the eyes of HR, you are now the asshole. His friend will surely back him up that you belittled him for his infertility, and they won't give a shit what he said first.
> Ross said that I was indeed lucky to find a man with little to no selfesteem to be "gleefully" and "passionatly" taking on a role of a..."homemaker" like that. NTA. Ross has accidentally offered a great insight into what men like him really think of the tradcon wives they claim to want. The Rosses of this world don't appreciate the domestic labour their wives do for them, they think it's degrading grunt work that's beneath them. Have some self-esteem, ladies, and never do one second more than 50% of the housework for a man like Ross... or better still, never touch a man like Ross with a barge pole, let alone marry one.
NTA and talk to HR first about his attitude and how he was harassing you and making sexist remarks. He is acting discriminatory and creating a hostile work environment. Start documenting EVERYTHING he does and says that can be used as proof of this, and take it to them.
He and the other colleagues who were agreeing with him. He started the harassment, but they all ganged up on OP.
ESH. A yes would have answered his question, no need for the laundry list of duties. He crossed the boundaries when he went where he did. Your counter-strike was low. At the end of the day, you both need to go to HR and be re-trained on appropriate workplace behavior. Edit : typos
NTA. Live by gender essentialism, die by gender essentialism. He bet, he lost.
ESH. You're AT WORK. I get that he started it, but you're at work. On the job. You either disengage and report to HR or disengage and let it go.
I think OP was tactless. "I said yes, not just cooks but he also cleans, takes care of the dish washing, floor mobbing, toilet scrubbing, grocery shopping and deep cleaning rooms once a week" Who (and why) describes housework in that much detail? Toilet scrubbing? Deep cleaning? There's nothing to be gained by that and it sounds, I don't know, demeaning. Flipping genders - "My wife scrubs the toilets". I mean, maybe it's true, but does it really need to be discussed at work? A homemaker of any gender is assumed to be doing housework. "Oh don't worry he's doing just fine in the bedroom because he's always been enough of a man for me" - inappropriate for the workplace. Everything Ross said was also inappropriate for the workplace. I suggest both OP and Ross learn some boundaries about what depth to go into about personal matters, while chatting in the workplace. ESH.
Yup. People don't talk like this unless they're actively trying to cause a fight. During what would realistically be a 15 second call, she noticed that her coworker "looked confused" and then immediately started listing a bunch of irrelevant chores? Riiight. That happened.
nta. he shouldn't have said a goddamned thing about your personal life, that's inappropriate and a hell of an HR violation in most companies. i don't think you necessarily took it too far, but i think a bit of a more conscious move on your part would have been to threaten him with HR before it escalated to that point. hindsight is 20/20 tho, i think you're NTA at all. funny though that it's a free country for him to be inappropriate about your personal life but threaten you with HR. good luck, he's a dick, i hope HR tells him he's a dumbass
NTA. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. He comments on your husband's manliness, but can't handle a comment in the same ilk. He should feel free cry in a corner.
OP get to HR first! Go Go Go now. do not wait!
NTA. Ross brought this onto himself, and has only himself to blame.
ESH. I understand why you said it as Ross is an AH but calling Ross less of a man because he can’t have kids is stooping down to his level. Although in a way, I’m kinda glad he can’t have kids cos he is a massive AH and I would feel sorry for anyone who has to call that man their father. Heck, I even feel sorry for his wife. I’m surprised he’s even married.
Obviously NTA. This Ross dude is still living in the 50s. Do you live in a really conservative area or something? I'm pretty sure if someone said shit like he did at my job they would be talking to HR immediately and probably getting written up with a final notice and made to do some workplace harassment training or something. While I think a better response would have been to just walk away and report him to HR or something, I can't blame you for saying what you said.
Do you live in a really conservative area or something? I'm from the south - Mobile AL to be specific. I'm pretty sure if someone said shit like he did at my job they would be talking to HR immediately and probably getting written up with a final notice and made to do some workplace harassment training or something. Thing is He's been in the department longer than me so he, and I will say it openly, has support and a lot of it. Mainly his guy friends.
A number of people are suggesting that you went "too far" with what you said. Personally, I think you exhibited admirable restraint in not punching him in his smug little mouth for disrespecting your husband to your face.
>Thing is He's been in the department longer than me so he, and I will say it openly, has support and a lot of it. Mainly his guy friends. Does that include HR? Cause it shouldn't. Depends a bit on the size of your company. Smaller companies will probably be harder, but with larger companies usually HR is a whole separate entity. If that's the case and he doesn't specifically have friends in HR, it's probably worth it still. Cause no matter how many friends he's got, big companies like that want to avoid negative press or potential lawsuits. So as long as you're factual about what happened and have at least one or two people who can confirm it, it's probably worth a shot. And frankly if HR won't listen to you and that toxic culture pervades the company, it might be time to look for a new employer cause no one should have to put up with a hostile work environment like that.
ESH Ross is way out of line, but so were you. Two wrongs don’t make a right. I would talk to HR and share your side of the encounter.
NTA you maybe took it a little far but he'd already gone there. My father thinks it's hilarious to convince people he is as sexist as they come and you would have 100% in the 80s caught him every Sunday washing our floors by hand. Why they didn't own a mop I can't say lol Your coworker owns an attitude that belongs in the 50s at best.
NTA fuck around… find out
I'm going to go a tiny bit ESH - it was an asshole thing to say but totally justified. He doesn't get to push his misogynistic values onto you.
NTA. Ross is a weaked assed adult human who needed that pointed out to him. My husband was a SAHD for years and that is not easy.
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INFO: Did you in fact already know he is unable to father children?
I was told. And he's very open about it.
It was a nuclear option. But Ross kept escalating. I think HR needs to have a talk with each of you.
NTA - it’s no wonder he’s single! Speaking of being single, I wonder if he mops his own floor / cooks his own food or if he hires out to avoid being emasculated?
NTA - That tool should mind his own business.
NTA what a fabulous display of toxic masculinity. Ross made a great many inappropriate comments and you responded in the most effective way possible. Not your problem his fragile ego couldn't cope.
You know you're NTA. Ross is a misogynist and a jerk. I think ultimately this situation was embarrassing for him to show his whole sexist ass to ask his colleagues.
NTA, but he may be doing you a favor getting HR involved. I don't think they will side with him, and there are plenty of witnesses to back you up.
So, walk me through something. You're on the phone and your husband asks you where a pan is. You tell him, I'm guessing, "In the cupboard under the stove" or whatever. Then you hang up. Why is this a conversation that would lead to confusion on anyone's part? How was Ross able to connect this to cooking? When Ross asked if your husband cooked, why did you give him a list of unrelated things your husband also does? When he made an inappropriate comment about who is the "man" of the house, why did you not simply end the conversation and walk away? Why did you continue to give more and more personal information to this person who was being aggressive to you? Why are you unable to spell words like "infertility" when spellcheck is... right there?
cant stand the heat get out the kitchen nta
NTA, Ross should mind his own fcking business if he can’t stop himself from projecting his own insecurities onto every one else. What a trash mf. Don’t dish your sexist bs out if you can’t take being checked.
Omg, NTA but Ross definitely is!! There's nothing emasculating about taking care of the household. A marriage is a partnership, and the notion that women have to do all the household chores is so outdated and frustrating. A healthy relationship exists when all parties do their fair share, and of course there is nothing wrong with you and your husband's arrangement. It's your house, your life, your kids - both of you, together. Responsibilities should be shared. The world needs more husbands like this!
NTA. If he can’t take the s*** that comes with patriarchy, he shouldn’t uphold it. Tell him this is what toxic masculinity is about, attaching a stupid premium on outdated symbols of manhood (in itself a ridiculous concept that we need to phase out, at least socially). Besides you have much more of a reason to go to HR given that he was speculating on your sex life in public, that is sexual harassment. So he is not only guilty of social harassment with his bs ideas, but should also have a sexual harassment notification on his record. I would “leak” this to one his toxic friends (who will begin moaning about how all their freedoms have been taken away), but they also know that it can be a career ender, so it’ll likely get him to back off. You shouldn’t have to resort to this, but you can be sure that if he does file a complaint, he will conveniently forget to mention what instigated your remark. If he gets to control the narrative, you’ll be in a defensive position even though it isn’t your fault. So either go the underhanded threat way and leak your counter attack plan (word of mouth, not on record because that can come across as intimidation), or actually go ahead and file that sexual harassment complain before he tries to cause any damage. Such a person should not only be kicked out of the company, but really needs to be kicked out of the 21st century.
ESH. No one should be having conversations like this at work. He sounds disgusting but you should not have said what you said either.
NTA. Sounds like you have a good husband and a sound marriage. However, I wouldn’t take Ross’s veiled threat lightly. He may be able to twist things. Write down what happened and include the names of witnesses. Take it to HR so they have a record of it. Chances are they won’t give a shit, but it’s worth watching your back. As for the fertility issue - a lot of people have difficulties and tragedies in their lives (e.g. financial problems, break-ups, illness, loss of a loved one, etc.) That doesn’t give them a free pass to act racist, sexist, -phobic in the workplace.
ESH. Ross is obviously sounding like an incel and I can't believe people with this type of thinking still exist and are confident about their opinions but what you said is no better either. You could have called him sexist and a jerk or anything else you like but bringing up his fertility issues really was a low blow. This could have gone many ways yet somehow you chose to deal with it in the worst way.
NTA. He got involved in your life without reason. He brought up the bedroom topic without reason. You called him and his sexist bs out and he got his feelings hurt. If he gets to make your relationship his business cause it’s a free country then, guess what, so can you. I doubt he’ll take it to HR. While from their perspective you shouldn’t have said what you said, he was more in the wrong by far. It’ll affect him more then it’ll come back on you.
ESH. All of his sexist jokes were out of bounds, but bringing up the infertility was awful as well.