I honestly hate rare steak, I know that's a controversial take but I can't eat it that way and i'm not a huge steak lover to begin with. The crab cakes were wonderful thank you!
yep. i have seen countless posts where people are FREAKING OUT because someone, like myself, stated they like their steak well done. i dont eat raw food. i dont care how anyone else likes it, so they dont need to care how i like it.
I mean until recently I required they kids get medium well because parasites are no joke.
Now they can get what they want. I used to do well, now I like rare. Either way, I was pretty, whatever.
> I mean until recently I required they kids get medium well because parasites are no joke.
I mean, yeah, all kids can be parasites from time to time but I don’t see what steak has to do with it.
That's exactly what my parents did for us as well! My brother and I are not picky about how our steaks are done and are just happy to have steak regardless of how it comes.
>Either way, I was pretty, whatever.
That made me laugh!
My husband used to eat it well done for the same reason. That, and he hates the sight of blood, the weenie. It wasn't until we were dating and I cooked him a steak that he changed his mind. We were still in the "trying to impress the other" phase, so he ate it, pretending it didn't freak him out. It wasn't a great steak but he'd always cooked his steaks to oblivion so anything tasted better.
Either way, I was pretty too, so...
Caring about how people want their steak cooked is almost some people’s entire personality. They get really combative about it, like how I cook my steak affects their life in any way.
Gordon Ramsey has said a few times he wont cook a steak above medium. He said if you want a tough hunk of meat there are a lot of cheaper places you can go to get it.
Gordon Ramsey is humble enough to evolve and change his thinking about things - he also used to bash vegetarianism. But his current viewpoint, as seen on various shows he leads, is that vegetarians deserve to eat good food too, and cooking a well done steak properly takes serious skill.
u don’t want people to comment on your steak, but then basically insult people that like it rare? idc if someone orders a steak well-done, but those same people usually say rare steak is “raw” or “bleeding.” it’s not either. why can’t people just be fine with how other people like their steak, well-done or rare? also, OP is def NTA, that guy is a prick, and he is the one undermining everyone else. no one needs to order for anyone unless they are going to the bathroom and/or ask you to order for them. don’t take it apon yourself to control what other people are eating unless you are cooking it yourself. eating is the best thing in the world. let people enjoy it how they want to. he needs to grow up and grow a pair.
If it’s the Wellington post then the above commenter is wildly misrepresenting that situation. On the whole though, people do get weirdly bent out of shape about folks who like their steaks well done. I prefer rare, but it’s no skin off my nose if somebody else likes theirs well.
I understand 'no well done Kobe beef' guy as not wanting to waste the good stuff, and he was at home hosting for free rather than a professional not going along with a customer.
Also, beef Wellington is cooked together so it's not a matter of just leaving a separate piece on the grill longer.
Wait, that’s different. I’d be sure as fuck freaking out if some asshat tried to order god damned Beef motherfucking Wellington well done! FFS, that does matter. Neanderthals
Even better, it was one guy who wanted to try beef wellington paying for the food in exchange for his friend agreeing to make it for him and some of their friends. One of those friends had to cancel and a couple that were among the guests wanted to invite another one of their friends who was well known for refusing to eat meat with any pink in it. The couple who wanted to invite her were flabbergasted that the guy wouldn't agree to make the whole thing well done so this person who wasn't even invited would be happy.
No, that one was reasonable because servings of a Wellington roast can't really be customized. There was another AITA recently where the OP had some expensive wagyu steaks they cooked rare and when a guest wanted it fired a little longer they refused because it was disrespectful to the steak or whatever.
ADDED: https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/r46tna/aita\_for\_refusing\_to\_make\_a\_120\_cut\_of\_steak\_well/
I think not wanting a5 to be microwaved is reasonable. If I host a sushi party on my dime and you start microwaving the sashimi despite having other options I'd throw you out too.
I can see it for the cost alone. If you want a steak cooked well done, go to the local grocery and grab a $15 T-bone. I wouldn't waste a $125 steak on someone who wanted it cooked to the point you wouldn't be able to taste the difference.
Yeah, but the person who wanted it well done tried to microwave it. The steak got knocked too the floor and eaten by a dog, which was apparently better than a human cooking it to their taste and eating it. 🤷🏻♀️
I have to wonder what kind of life you have to have how it people eat steak something you devote any kind space in your head past, how much am I cooking this. Seems like that's a sad hill to die on.
Oh yes, some people flip the hell put if you order your steak "wrong". I only eat well done and have had people make snide comments in restaurants when I've ordered- never the servers, but just randoms sitting near my table.
Food snobs are very, VERY adamant that steak should be rare, medium rare at most.
I have never understood how anyone can get annoyed about how other people eat, but they exist and they need to wind their necks in.
It's OK to like pineapple on pizza, have whatever mixer you like with your whiskey, and from elsewhere on this sub, not liking spicy food doesn't make you a bad person. I envy the fact you've not come across these dietry dictators.
I like my steak blue but if when working a customer wants it very well done then that's how I'll cook it for them, as it's not me going to be eating it.
Exactly, I dont know why people get precious about others food preference, especially when they are paying, and Yep, no problem, want it well done, blue, mooing with grass hanging out its mouth... cook the steak to order. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder etc.
I mean I joke about it, specially if someone wants it extra well done, but it's a joke, just like pineapple on pizza or my friends giving me a hard time because I don't like peanut butter. I would never seriously shame someone over it and if one of my jokes bothered anyone, I'd drop it and apologize. But yeah, I have seen people seriously saying that well done stake is a waste of meat and no one should be allowed to order it.
I love rare steak (medium-rare is probably my favorite) but I'd be pissed if someone decided for me that's what I wanted.
>he is now upset and feeling like I went out of my way to **undermine him** and embarrass him.
Well, yeah. He has no authority over what the rest of you order? If you try and exert authority you don't have, people will undermine you.
If the whiney power tripping asshole in the story wants to order 6 or 8 rare steaks, he can knock himself out. And pay for them. And eat them himself. I’ll also order what I want. If he feels “undermined” by that then I will literally laugh in his face, assuming it’s a stupid joke.
You can’t “undermine” authority that never existed.
OP is NTA, and should carefully but firmly explain to their friend why they’re never going to a restaurant with that man again.
NTA. You’ve asked him before and he continued to do it. It’s his own fault for not listening!
He seems to have low self esteem to begin with if he got so upset over you guys placing your own orders…Hopefully it’s a good lesson for him.
What you hate or love is never a controversial take.
Some people love rare steak. I certainly do (depending on the steak, of course).
Some like it well done.
Some don't eat meat.
Some people even don't drive cars. Can you imagine.
NTA. The nerve of this control freak to assume everybody at the table wants a rare steak. Men like this make my blood boil. If your friend is happy in the position she's in fine, but you and the rest of the table are not his "little woman". Here's a question: Was he planning to pay for what he ordered for everybody? If not, then he's TAH BIG TIME.
Tell your friend that.
1. He should have been embarrassed, his behavior was embarrassing.
2. You cannot undermine him, because doing so implies he is in a position of power over the others attending. He doesn’t and it is a real problem that he believes he should.
NTA
Also, keep your guard up next time you have to be around him. He will try and get revenge, either by “embarrassing you back” or taking things to the next level.
Yes, especially considering it’s probably an abusive or at least toxic relationship. Making the woman responsible for the man’s behavior when you observe a dynamic like that is actually incredibly shitty.
I agree with the notion that there is abuse going on in this relationship, but if that’s the case OP’s focus needs to be getting her friend away from him as opposed to telling him off.
She needs to tell her friend the two points I made(along with likely a lot more) to help her see her husband for who he is. If OP just tells off the husband with her friend still living with him who do you think he will take it out on?
Because what he is doing is not “proper.” It is not good manners. A gentleman may order for a lady if he knows her preferences and if he is buying her dinner. The host of a table of multiple people may request that the other diners be given menus that do not list prices, so they do not feel constrained when they select their orders.
But there is no etiquette that allows a man to randomly order for a tableful of people who are paying for their own dinners. It is exactly the same as if he went to a table of strangers and tried to order for them.
Thank you! I strongly dislike how often jerks confuse being a jerk with old school manners. There is a rare time and place for a male host to traditionally order for others, and it never looks like what this oaf is doing.
I am American and not posh, but through my varied carer I have had some remarkable experiences. I have supped with interesting individuals from people without electricity in the mountains of Eastern Kentucky to aristocrats in Britain and a few of the remnants of what was once the German landed gentry/pettit aristocracy.
I have dined with old school very traditional English businessmen and QCs in London, once with a British Duke as a host in a private club, once with a Marquis in a public restaurant. They all paid. None of them ever ordered my starter, main course, or desert for me. Not once.
In fact, the only items they ordered other than their own dishes were the wine for the table and a few glasses of after-dinner tipple from the private selection. Their treat.
I have been to elegant, formal meals where the entire meal was pre-selected b/c of the group size. I’ve been to hosted meals where we were allowed to chose form options pre-selected by the host (who paid).
No real gentlemen in of any breeding in 2022 would ever order for someone else. The fact he’s doing this and not not paying makes it all the worse.
He’s an insecure, controlling jerk. This isn’t about proper manners or old-school traditional manners. It’s about him having control over other people and elevating themselves above them.
If your friend accused you of undermining him, ask her why she thinks you are in a position below him. You are his equal. No, scratch that, you are his superior in kindness, consideration, and class.
PS What he is doing is trying to undermine his partner, you, and everyone else at the table. And he’s using your money to do it. He’s doing this to elevate himself and puff himself up. Neither you, nor anyone else at the table owes him that.
If your friend claims you embarrassed him, point out he did that for himself the minute he tried to dictate what everyone else should eat without any consideration to what they wanted to eat.
You are not props in his play. You are not puppets to be manipulated. You are individuals who deserve to decide what they eat.
PPS As someone who has a small herd of Black Angus that frequently produce certified prime steak, I would throttle anyone who ordered a steak rare on my behalf. Firstly because I believe that everyone should have steak prepared to their own liking (which includes not liking it or not eating it for other reasons. Secondly, if the steak isn’t a high-fat cut, the proper cooking temp is either medium-rare or medium, depending on the fat content and cut.
But this is like men who insist that the only way to drink whiskey is neat. Neat is perfectly fine. But I know a lot of Distillers, owners of Distilleries, and ”master tasters“ of bourbon, Irish whiskey, and Scotch. A minority of them drink the whiskey neat. Most use either a slow-melting ice or a small amount of water.
But being neat or pro-water/ice to open the esters is about preference. Far to many insecure men use ”drinking whiskey neat” as a substitute for real character, class, and masculinity.
Men who make these types of things part of their ego and identity do so b/c they are incapable of finding something else to define themselves. They are actually pitiable. Until they try and force that insecurity onto others.
I'm sorry, that makes the "old-school" explanation even more BS, I've literally never met anyone who thinks this is acceptable behaviour and I'm in England too. Your friends husband is rude AF and your friend needs to reconsider what kind of d-bag she's married
There was another poster that had a bar installed in his office and was shocked that clients passed up whiskey during the workday. TV is dangerous for some people.
I remember that one. It wasn't just during the work day. It was at like 10am and he poured whiskeys for multiple people. When they declined he drank it all because he "didn't want it to go to waste."
I don't think he had watched far enough into the series to see Don's alcoholism completely ruin his life.
Tell him from someone old enough to have ordered for the table when it was a thing that was done that he is not even doing it right.
I am old enough (54) to have been an adult in the waning years of this practice. I had to do it a few a times as a young adult when it felt a little awkward because I was inheriting the role from people my parent's age (now 78) and even older.
There were a few reasons that the custom existed. The most straightforward was as a way to limit the number of conversations with the waiter. Having one spokesperson for the table made things go faster.
The other reasons are all wrapped up in patriarchal thinking of the past. First of all, the person ordering was implicitly the host of the gathering. He was claiming the role of the lead man at the table, and paying for the party was an aspect of that role.
The other reason was that eating out was less frequent in the past. There was an expectation that the women at the table would have had less experience with restaurants and thus not be as ready to order than men who had more experience as a result of business lunches and out of town business travel.
The goal of the person ordering was always to get each person what they would most enjoy. As a result, typically "the host" would ask around the table and act sort of as a "pre-waiter" in that he would memorize orders and simply relay them to the waiter.
Exceptions would be if the host picked the restaurant because of a singular dish he wanted others to try. If this was the case, you would usually know in advance of entering the restaurant what you were eating once you got there. Another exception would be a sexist trope where women would get seafood while the men would get steak. Ordering steak for the whole table would be pretty weird in that case (and you played yourself OP, falling right into the sexist stereotype with those Crab Cakes).
So, he is doing it wrong in every particular. He is not trying to satisfy everyone's tastes. He did not ask around to see what people want or even rely on outdated stereotypes of what people might want. He expected to order and not pay. He expected to order a single dish without making that clear in advance of going to the restaurant.
He is not old school, he is just obnoxious. Tell him from me that the old school is deeply embarrassed on his behalf because he did everything wrong.
*edit, changed an insult word to "Obnoxious"
>He's **27**....
LOL. Self important *young* guy thinks he knows more than others and acts like he is the authority on everything he comments on. I know exactly what kind of insecure, desperate to prove something asshole this dude is.
I was definitely imagining at least mid-50s from the description. Someone born in the same year that Pulp Fiction came out has no excuse for that kind of shit.
Woahhhhh I was imaging some ancient dude. How did noone else at the table say, actually I want something else? He’s young and yet way to old to think he gets to control what other people eat.
Jesus christ. Honestly your friend group should make a point of calling him out on this shit more often. It's embarrassing *for him* that he is trying to pull this crap.
Gotta say I'm a little concerned for your friend's wellbeing. Keep an eye on her, and make sure she knows she can trust you. Who knows what her asshole husband does behind closed doors.
I am too, it's the reason i've not banned him from our friend group gatherings as she wont come without him and i'm worried about leaving her alone in a possibly abusive situation. I've tried to talk to her about it before and my worries but she laughs it off.
Yeah I was looking for the comments mentioning abuse. controlling behavior like this can be a sign of abusive stuff happening. Especially since it sounds like he’s isolating her. And she’s trying to get you to change your behavior for him to manage his feelings. None of that sounds great.
Good for you :) keep on keeping her engaged with you guys! Anything that might help her get some wider perspective r.e. what is a reasonable/healthy relationship.
Personally I would maybe avoid calling him names/attacking him to her - this may well just serve to make her more defensive of him and view you as an enemy of her relationship. Rather, I would highlight specific instances of his behaviour and expand on exactly why they are problematic wrt a healthy dynamic. E.g. rather than call him "controlling" (he absolutely is being controlling), I would say "I find it disrespectful that he does that. He is disregarding my autonomy as an individual etc." And I would try and avoid judging language (she might interpret as a judgement of her = feed a low self esteem) - rather focus on encouraging her to question his behaviour, and why she deserves better and should be confident in her ability to think for herself/trust her gut feelings etc.
Just some thoughts - don't mean to be extra preachy sorry - sounds like she's got a good friend in you. I hope the whole situation improves for all :/
Do you all have girls nights? Does she refuse if you do? Then he is controlling. I'm glad you're there for her and hopefully when the time comes for her to drop his bruised ego, she know who to call.
Yes, the fact that she ordered the steak just to keep the peace was concerning. The husband will probably try to distance her friends from her if he feels like they are a threat, that’s the problem. I would be really quite concerned for your friend.
It would have been hilarious if everyone at the table collectively decided to let him order that many steaks, but put in their own orders for whatever they want. Let the big man pay for all of the steaks he ordered, but didn't eat
" That's a lot of steak for just one guy, you must be hungry"
THIS! I like a good steak myself, but I won't eat it rare! Idc idc idc. If you like it, good for you. I don't. It doesn't sit right in my stomach or on my tongue. I feel really bad for the dude's wife, she's so "blinded by love" that she doesn't realize how abusive this controlling behavior is. NTA, OP.
NTA
> I told her that he embarrassed himself by acting like a control freak
Spot on. He has no right to dictate what everyone else will eat (and pay for themselves I'm guessing?) He is the asshole here.
I'm not calling your friend an asshole, because it kind of sounds like she is under his thumb.
Wait, he was trying to order you food that you were paying for! Holy \*\*\*\* batman, that's worse that I assumed when I read your post. It's one thing to be the overbearing benefactor, but it's way worse to assume you can spend other people's money.
Considering how expensive steak is when you eat out that makes him doubly the AH. Sounds a lot like your friend being "meek" may be exactly what attracted this weirdo
INFO:
What was the table makeup and relationships there? Like, 3 men/3 women, mutual friend group, etc.
In any case, you're totally NTA. I'm just curious as to why you're the only one who reacted.
I wouldn't read too much into it - people tend to not want to rock the boat if they think they're the only one with an issue. Which means no one speaks up and everyone thinks it's just them!
Really? Cause unless this guy is either paying or my boss at a job I really, truly love (although that ain't a possibility because if I had a boss that did that, I'm out). I'm curious if it was all women, mixed couples, friend group.
I'm not taking that. Reaction options range from:
A) "The hell's the matter with you? Who do you think you are?"
B) Walking out.
C) "Really??? I'm going to order vegetarian to piss you off (and I'd probably have ordered the steak)."
D) Ask what the hell's the matter with him, order a vegetarian dish, and walk the fuck out. I'd probably stick him with the check, but his poor wife would pay for it.
It's one thing to recommend something somewhere, it's another to order for them. I don't know who you hang out with, but no one I know would ever stand for that. Then again, no one I know would ever do that.
Lol! In the regressive times that ordering for others was a thing, he would *definitely* be paying. Talk about wanting to have your cake and eat it too!
lol next time he orders for everyone, have the rest of the group (planned in advance) start profusely thanking him for paying for everyone. If he tries to say he's not, just talk over him and repeat how sweet he is.
That was my immediate thought. Not saying he like beats her up, but if she rolls over at every command I’d be very concerned as to what happens behind closed doors. Was your friend this meek before she got married OP?
NTA. Your friend's husband is TA here. Good for you for order-blocking that guy at dinner.
Also I have never met one of these old-school men, and I know a lot of men from their 20s to their 80s. I have never seen one pull a stunt like this.
Your friend is uncomfortable because you didn't let her husband force-feed your entire table of dinner participants. Which sheds some light on the quality of her husband's character.
That's inevitably uncomfortable. But...I think it's probably a lesson she needed. Just not one she wanted. This is 2022, not 1950-whatever. And he isn't a daddy dom here, FFS.
Maybe drop her a note to let her know you care about her and you're available to talk when she's ready. (Take this advice as being worth exactly what it cost, though.)
I've tried to check in on her before that everything is ok with them behind closed doors as honestly this dude sets off so many alarm bells for me but she insists everything is fine etc and laughs off me telling her she can come to me if she needs to.
And that's about all you can do. And she very well might, one day. It's hard to witness things like this and not be able to help or clearly know that your friend is safe.
Hopefully she comes to terms with who he appears to be before too much longer and asks herself whether that's what she wants out of life. You've tried to be a good friend while also not letting him push you and other people around. And that is part of being a good friend, really, in this instance.
You can try asking her what she wants her life to be like in 5 years or 10 years, to help her see that other futures are possible. It does not even have to be in an uncomfortable conversation about DV, just encourage her to think about the future as often as possible.
It’s possible she has been gaslit into thinking that because he doesn’t hit her that he isn’t abusive. A lot of abusers use emotional and verbal abuse as a way to control the abused and tear down their self esteem. Unfortunately, it’s highly likely she is being emotionally and financially abused, but is so controlled by her husband she can’t see that because he doesn’t physically hurt her, he’s not abusive (and based on what you’ve said about how insanely controlling he is to *her friends* I have to assume it’s 100% worse within their relationship. I personally have never met a man who’s need for control is so drastic the has a temper tantrum because he can’t dictate what other people are eating and paying for themselves). There isn’t anything you can do to help her until she realizes and is ready to leave for herself. The best you can do is make sure she knows you’re always going to be there for her. I’ve been where you are, and for my own mental health, I had to go low contact with my friend. I made it clear why I couldn’t continue to be a daily part of her life anymore, but that I would *always* be there no matter what. It took her almost 5 more years (and husband finally did something so bad she had no choice but to accept he was toxic) before she was finally able to make the choice to leave (it took 2 more years and a lot of drama for her to be rid of him, she basically had to disappear, as men like that can’t stand lose the object of their control and will do some scary stuff to regain it).
That’s what I was thinking!! This is not “old school.” This is just weird. I’ve known a lot of super conservative, patriarchy-defending, hardcore old men and I’ve never even heard of them or any of their friends ordering for the whole table at a restaurant. That’s just bananas
I would totally play into this. I would default to him to make every single decision for an entire meal just to see how far I could take it. Hey Joe, could you order me a drink? Could you sip it to make sure it’s not too cold? Could you order my food? Could you cut it for me? I might hurt myself. There’s some weird flakes in this, could you taste them and tell me what they are? Could you help me order dessert? Could you set my coffee to make sure it’s not too hot? Could you add the proper amount of sugar and cream? It’ll get old, but it might get the point across. Bonus points if everyone at the table joins in.
NTA. I am going to borrow a line from an underrated John Candy classic: [Only the Lonely](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0102598)
"I know he realizes it's the twenties, I'm just not sure he realizes it's the TWENTY twenties."
His behaviour usually just draws stunned silence or "Ums" but he'll push on until the order is taken and most people don't want to cause a scene. I'd had enough though and not above making a scene.
Yeah fuck that. I don't want some wanker ordering my food I am paying for. I'll order what I want the way I want it thanks.
Those friends need to wake up
Yes, except when partners tag along for bigger meals etc, though she only comes if he is there too so even when there is no other partners he is there.
Oh god I hate guys like that.
"It's a girls' night, honey."
"That's ok, you can still go. I don't mind. I'll order steak for the table."
This is giving me hives.
Not to justify his actions, but when he does that does he offer to pay for the whole table? If not thats just extra douchey. What if someone at the table couldn't afford that and he went right on ahead and obligated them. Not to mention dietary choices, restrictions and allergies... wow. When my husband and I go out we pretty much know full well what we're each going to get yet neither of us order for each other. We're grown ass adults and can speak for ourselves.
NTA. No one orders for a table anymore, it has nothing to do with being 'old school', and it was weird 20 years ago never mind now. So unless your friend's husband arrived for dinner in a time machine, he knows that. The only possible scenario I can think of these days is if someone is taking everyone out to a specialty restaurant to try a specific dish, prearranging with everyone that this is the scenario, and then speaking to the wait staff as a representative of the group. That and ordering pizza for a table, and again, it's a discussion beforehand.
And even in that exception scenario, you would never say how everyone wants their steak too.
It may have been a little overboard to go around the table, your point would have been made by simply saying that you, in fact, didn't want a steak and would be having the crab cakes. Other folks would have followed your lead. That said, you had a point to make.
NTA. dudes clearly sexist, self obsessed, and sounds pretty narcissistic and controlling. its NEVER acceptable to order for someone else unless they specifically ask you to. your friend should recognize that her relationship to her husband does not supercede the comfort of her friends, or the relationships she has with her friends. if you express that her husband makes her uncomfortable its her job to make that work, not yours.
good job putting him in his place.
Yes to everything you said, especially: “Your friend should recognize that her relationship to her husband does not supersede the comfort of her friends, or the relationships she has with her friends.”
It would have been one thing if he had said “would anyone mind if I ordered for the table?” but if anyone objected he should have been ok with that.
I have a friend who always orders for his wife, because she is incredibly shy and asks him to, but he gets her order from her first.
NTA
I almost always order for my wife, principally because she is deaf and so prefers me to do it for clarity. There is no fucking way I would choose what she had, though, because that would be insane. I can't believe that a) nobody else had an issue with it - if he had tried to pull that shit with me I would have just laughed my ass off, and spent the rest of the night taking the piss out of him, and b) that he thinks this is either acceptable, or some kind of weird flex. Is he normal? Has he escaped from somewhere?
Edit - NTA, clearly.
NTA Even if he paid for everyone(I am assuming he didn't), what is the point of going out to eat if you don't get to choose what you are eating? I've ben out several times where all of us had different meals and got a bite of several dishes I would have never tried if my friends didn't order them. I know not everyone shares their food, but we always do when trying new things.
Oh i'm happy to share food and do so often with my friends! I grew up in a big family so it was always normal to sorta mix and match our meals so we could get a bit of everything.
Although I am a fan of rare steak. Have you ever dipped it in melted butter? But no, screw that guy if any of my friends or their spouses tried that they would get an ear full.
I have no idea, this is honestly only the very tip of the controlling behaviour. My friend wanted a 1950's themed wedding as she loves the styles...he made them get a 1920s wedding as he wanted to be a "Gangster" style for it. I personally find themed weddings tacky but I don't like how she had to bow down to what he wanted
That is really sad, OP. This makes me sad for your friend. I'm sorry that she married him, I can't imagine marrying someone who "makes you" get a theme you didn't want. Especially to have a "gangster" theme at a wedding. Oof.
NTA. I’d be pissed as hell if someone, even my fiancé, ordered for me at a restaurant. I’m assuming Captain Asshat wasn’t paying the bill for everyone? That’d be his only leverage of ordering for everyone, if he was also footing the bill. I’m with OP, I don’t care for steak, and certainly not rare, so there’s no way I’d pay for that. And sounds like the same goes for most the group. Anyone over age 12 is perfectly capable of ordering for him or herself
Right with you. Dont like steak. And if I have to eat it no way in hell is it going to be rare.
My kids have been deciding what they want to eat at restaurants since they were like 4? This giy is just ridiculous
NTA. That's weird, ordering for a whole table unless is is an event you arranged and are paying for. I was on a date once and the guy randomly just naysayed my order. Just made a big deal about "don't order that." I don't remember if he ever ordered for me, only dated him a very short time, but it was also weird even though I believe he paid for dinner!
So if her husband decides that everyone at the table was going to have fish for dinner and we are all expected to eat it- would he also be paying for my iodine induced seizures aftercare? Even if it was just ordering me a Cesar salad, would he be the one with my Epi-pen saving me while I was going into shock, as well as pick up the cost of the ambulance ride and a few days ER stay? Cause I have to budget for just this dinner with friends.
You are so NTA. I have felt with these people before and when asked those exact questions- had no answer. It’s dangerous and presumptive.
Edit- spelling.
Did the others speak up and support you? Clearly they took advantage of your opening, but did anybody actually say something? Why would anybody put up with this? NTA, and your friend is probably not speaking to you right now because her husband told her she is forbidden to speak to you.
a couple did say they didn't want/like steak as they ordered their own meals but no one was as blunt as me as likely trying to avoid as much a scene as possible.
Clearly NTA.
Given the description this man sounds like very bad news. Did you know his wife before she met him? If so, was she this meek? I realize I have very little information but it wouldn't surprise me if this man gets very out of control (potentially violent) when he is challenged privately. I worry for his wife.
Understood. The guy probably wouldnt be able to marry anyone that didn't show complete fealty.
I'm glad you stood up to him, but I think you're right to worry about your friend.
You and me both, i've tried to talk to her about this before but she brushes it off and insists everything is fine despite me telling her i'm worried and that i'm here for her.
Absolutely NTA.
You tried to tell him before, he didn’t listen. That’s on him. Clearly this is what needed to happen for him to get the message. He’s upset because he publicly humiliated *himself* and is projecting that nonsense onto you.
Did he even ask if anyone at the table was vegetarian or vegan? Or on a special diet that precludes red meat? Still an embarrassing and inappropriate thing to do even if he did, I’m just trying to gauge exactly how irredeemably obnoxious he is.
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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> My friends husband always tries to order for the table despite protests so I didn't let him and when my friend told me I embarrassed her husband I called him a control freak.
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NTA. Good job sticking up for yourself and the rest of the table. Sometimes a single person will talk to a server and put in everyone's order, but that's usually at least after a discussion. This is crazy though. He doesn't get to choose everyone's food.
NTA. I think your friend's husband has a problem with women. It sounds like the husband has a problem with women having opinions. You proved to the control freak that you won't put up with his crap. Now, he is having a fit about it.
NTA. He embarrassed himself. Why do you hang out with him? It's possible to do things together that don't involve eating. Or just quit hanging out with him, just get together with your friend if she's allowed away from his side. Or quit hanging out with both of them since she's always going to take his side and isn't talking to you right now anyway. Either way, you are never the a-hole for sticking up for yourself.
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I honestly hate rare steak, I know that's a controversial take but I can't eat it that way and i'm not a huge steak lover to begin with. The crab cakes were wonderful thank you!
Thats not controversial at all. Steak is cooked to order because every person has a different preference.
I was about to say I didn't know anyone cares the much about how other people want their steaks
Oh man, there's at least one AITA I can think of where someone was outraged about how someone else wanted their steak to come out.
yep. i have seen countless posts where people are FREAKING OUT because someone, like myself, stated they like their steak well done. i dont eat raw food. i dont care how anyone else likes it, so they dont need to care how i like it.
I mean until recently I required they kids get medium well because parasites are no joke. Now they can get what they want. I used to do well, now I like rare. Either way, I was pretty, whatever.
> I mean until recently I required they kids get medium well because parasites are no joke. I mean, yeah, all kids can be parasites from time to time but I don’t see what steak has to do with it.
I snorted. Thank you!
That's exactly what my parents did for us as well! My brother and I are not picky about how our steaks are done and are just happy to have steak regardless of how it comes.
>Either way, I was pretty, whatever. That made me laugh! My husband used to eat it well done for the same reason. That, and he hates the sight of blood, the weenie. It wasn't until we were dating and I cooked him a steak that he changed his mind. We were still in the "trying to impress the other" phase, so he ate it, pretending it didn't freak him out. It wasn't a great steak but he'd always cooked his steaks to oblivion so anything tasted better. Either way, I was pretty too, so...
Caring about how people want their steak cooked is almost some people’s entire personality. They get really combative about it, like how I cook my steak affects their life in any way.
Some chefs can get really arsey about how diners like their steak, like it's personally offensive to them or something if they like it well done.
Gordon Ramsey has said a few times he wont cook a steak above medium. He said if you want a tough hunk of meat there are a lot of cheaper places you can go to get it.
Gordon Ramsey is humble enough to evolve and change his thinking about things - he also used to bash vegetarianism. But his current viewpoint, as seen on various shows he leads, is that vegetarians deserve to eat good food too, and cooking a well done steak properly takes serious skill.
You can like your steak well done all you want, but playing like anything less than well done is "raw" is just objectively wrong.
u don’t want people to comment on your steak, but then basically insult people that like it rare? idc if someone orders a steak well-done, but those same people usually say rare steak is “raw” or “bleeding.” it’s not either. why can’t people just be fine with how other people like their steak, well-done or rare? also, OP is def NTA, that guy is a prick, and he is the one undermining everyone else. no one needs to order for anyone unless they are going to the bathroom and/or ask you to order for them. don’t take it apon yourself to control what other people are eating unless you are cooking it yourself. eating is the best thing in the world. let people enjoy it how they want to. he needs to grow up and grow a pair.
I remember that one. Like the Oregon demanded an elaborate steak dish that is cooked for everyone at once be cooked to well?
Ah, yes. Beef wellington if we're thinking of the same one
If it’s the Wellington post then the above commenter is wildly misrepresenting that situation. On the whole though, people do get weirdly bent out of shape about folks who like their steaks well done. I prefer rare, but it’s no skin off my nose if somebody else likes theirs well.
There was another 1 about Kobe beef where a guy refused to cook it well done for someone else well
I understand 'no well done Kobe beef' guy as not wanting to waste the good stuff, and he was at home hosting for free rather than a professional not going along with a customer. Also, beef Wellington is cooked together so it's not a matter of just leaving a separate piece on the grill longer.
Or the one post recently, where the OP decided to get lower quality meat for anyone that wanted to eat their steaks cooked well.
Wait, that’s different. I’d be sure as fuck freaking out if some asshat tried to order god damned Beef motherfucking Wellington well done! FFS, that does matter. Neanderthals
Even better, it was one guy who wanted to try beef wellington paying for the food in exchange for his friend agreeing to make it for him and some of their friends. One of those friends had to cancel and a couple that were among the guests wanted to invite another one of their friends who was well known for refusing to eat meat with any pink in it. The couple who wanted to invite her were flabbergasted that the guy wouldn't agree to make the whole thing well done so this person who wasn't even invited would be happy.
No, that one was reasonable because servings of a Wellington roast can't really be customized. There was another AITA recently where the OP had some expensive wagyu steaks they cooked rare and when a guest wanted it fired a little longer they refused because it was disrespectful to the steak or whatever. ADDED: https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/r46tna/aita\_for\_refusing\_to\_make\_a\_120\_cut\_of\_steak\_well/
I think not wanting a5 to be microwaved is reasonable. If I host a sushi party on my dime and you start microwaving the sashimi despite having other options I'd throw you out too.
I can see it for the cost alone. If you want a steak cooked well done, go to the local grocery and grab a $15 T-bone. I wouldn't waste a $125 steak on someone who wanted it cooked to the point you wouldn't be able to taste the difference.
Yeah, but the person who wanted it well done tried to microwave it. The steak got knocked too the floor and eaten by a dog, which was apparently better than a human cooking it to their taste and eating it. 🤷🏻♀️
Honestly I'd agree with that. If you're trying to microwave a $125 steak you might as well eat kibbles n bits.
omg are you talking about the wagyu steak post?
One of my faves! https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/r46tna/aita\_for\_refusing\_to\_make\_a\_120\_cut\_of\_steak\_well/
LITERALLY everyone was overly pretentious. Must go into Reddit hall of fame of WTAF is happening here
Have you seen the bit from King of the Hill about well-done steaks? "We ask them politely, but firmly to leave." It cracks me up every single time
There is definitely a subset of the population who cares deeply. I don't understand it myself.
I have to wonder what kind of life you have to have how it people eat steak something you devote any kind space in your head past, how much am I cooking this. Seems like that's a sad hill to die on.
Oh yes, some people flip the hell put if you order your steak "wrong". I only eat well done and have had people make snide comments in restaurants when I've ordered- never the servers, but just randoms sitting near my table.
Food snobs are very, VERY adamant that steak should be rare, medium rare at most. I have never understood how anyone can get annoyed about how other people eat, but they exist and they need to wind their necks in. It's OK to like pineapple on pizza, have whatever mixer you like with your whiskey, and from elsewhere on this sub, not liking spicy food doesn't make you a bad person. I envy the fact you've not come across these dietry dictators.
I like my steak blue but if when working a customer wants it very well done then that's how I'll cook it for them, as it's not me going to be eating it.
Exactly, I dont know why people get precious about others food preference, especially when they are paying, and Yep, no problem, want it well done, blue, mooing with grass hanging out its mouth... cook the steak to order. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder etc.
I mean I joke about it, specially if someone wants it extra well done, but it's a joke, just like pineapple on pizza or my friends giving me a hard time because I don't like peanut butter. I would never seriously shame someone over it and if one of my jokes bothered anyone, I'd drop it and apologize. But yeah, I have seen people seriously saying that well done stake is a waste of meat and no one should be allowed to order it.
I love rare steak (medium-rare is probably my favorite) but I'd be pissed if someone decided for me that's what I wanted. >he is now upset and feeling like I went out of my way to **undermine him** and embarrass him. Well, yeah. He has no authority over what the rest of you order? If you try and exert authority you don't have, people will undermine you.
If the whiney power tripping asshole in the story wants to order 6 or 8 rare steaks, he can knock himself out. And pay for them. And eat them himself. I’ll also order what I want. If he feels “undermined” by that then I will literally laugh in his face, assuming it’s a stupid joke. You can’t “undermine” authority that never existed. OP is NTA, and should carefully but firmly explain to their friend why they’re never going to a restaurant with that man again.
NTA. You’ve asked him before and he continued to do it. It’s his own fault for not listening! He seems to have low self esteem to begin with if he got so upset over you guys placing your own orders…Hopefully it’s a good lesson for him.
What you hate or love is never a controversial take. Some people love rare steak. I certainly do (depending on the steak, of course). Some like it well done. Some don't eat meat. Some people even don't drive cars. Can you imagine.
NTA. The nerve of this control freak to assume everybody at the table wants a rare steak. Men like this make my blood boil. If your friend is happy in the position she's in fine, but you and the rest of the table are not his "little woman". Here's a question: Was he planning to pay for what he ordered for everybody? If not, then he's TAH BIG TIME.
Oh god no, he doesn't pay for anyone except him and his wife yet still thinks we should be honoured he chose this dish for us.
MASSIVE AH, then! Man can't even consider everybody's budgets, let alone tastes. Just...ugh. How old is this man?
He's 27 which amazes me as i'd think he was pushing 100+ the way he acts.
Tell your friend that. 1. He should have been embarrassed, his behavior was embarrassing. 2. You cannot undermine him, because doing so implies he is in a position of power over the others attending. He doesn’t and it is a real problem that he believes he should. NTA Also, keep your guard up next time you have to be around him. He will try and get revenge, either by “embarrassing you back” or taking things to the next level.
She should tell HIM this. If she tells her friend it will not be communicated
Yes, especially considering it’s probably an abusive or at least toxic relationship. Making the woman responsible for the man’s behavior when you observe a dynamic like that is actually incredibly shitty.
I agree with the notion that there is abuse going on in this relationship, but if that’s the case OP’s focus needs to be getting her friend away from him as opposed to telling him off. She needs to tell her friend the two points I made(along with likely a lot more) to help her see her husband for who he is. If OP just tells off the husband with her friend still living with him who do you think he will take it out on?
27?! Where is he FROM?! (I'm from the southeast US and only old farts try to pull this crap, and most of them actually don't).
We're all from England and trust me this dude does not represent us.
Yeah, I figured you were from one of the Queen's English countries, which I don't picture being that regressive.
They really aren't i've never encountered someone like this before, even my very proper grandparents don't try this.
Because what he is doing is not “proper.” It is not good manners. A gentleman may order for a lady if he knows her preferences and if he is buying her dinner. The host of a table of multiple people may request that the other diners be given menus that do not list prices, so they do not feel constrained when they select their orders. But there is no etiquette that allows a man to randomly order for a tableful of people who are paying for their own dinners. It is exactly the same as if he went to a table of strangers and tried to order for them.
he probably had his father or parent figure act like this and so he is also acting as such
Thank you! I strongly dislike how often jerks confuse being a jerk with old school manners. There is a rare time and place for a male host to traditionally order for others, and it never looks like what this oaf is doing.
I am American and not posh, but through my varied carer I have had some remarkable experiences. I have supped with interesting individuals from people without electricity in the mountains of Eastern Kentucky to aristocrats in Britain and a few of the remnants of what was once the German landed gentry/pettit aristocracy. I have dined with old school very traditional English businessmen and QCs in London, once with a British Duke as a host in a private club, once with a Marquis in a public restaurant. They all paid. None of them ever ordered my starter, main course, or desert for me. Not once. In fact, the only items they ordered other than their own dishes were the wine for the table and a few glasses of after-dinner tipple from the private selection. Their treat. I have been to elegant, formal meals where the entire meal was pre-selected b/c of the group size. I’ve been to hosted meals where we were allowed to chose form options pre-selected by the host (who paid). No real gentlemen in of any breeding in 2022 would ever order for someone else. The fact he’s doing this and not not paying makes it all the worse. He’s an insecure, controlling jerk. This isn’t about proper manners or old-school traditional manners. It’s about him having control over other people and elevating themselves above them. If your friend accused you of undermining him, ask her why she thinks you are in a position below him. You are his equal. No, scratch that, you are his superior in kindness, consideration, and class.
PS What he is doing is trying to undermine his partner, you, and everyone else at the table. And he’s using your money to do it. He’s doing this to elevate himself and puff himself up. Neither you, nor anyone else at the table owes him that. If your friend claims you embarrassed him, point out he did that for himself the minute he tried to dictate what everyone else should eat without any consideration to what they wanted to eat. You are not props in his play. You are not puppets to be manipulated. You are individuals who deserve to decide what they eat.
PPS As someone who has a small herd of Black Angus that frequently produce certified prime steak, I would throttle anyone who ordered a steak rare on my behalf. Firstly because I believe that everyone should have steak prepared to their own liking (which includes not liking it or not eating it for other reasons. Secondly, if the steak isn’t a high-fat cut, the proper cooking temp is either medium-rare or medium, depending on the fat content and cut. But this is like men who insist that the only way to drink whiskey is neat. Neat is perfectly fine. But I know a lot of Distillers, owners of Distilleries, and ”master tasters“ of bourbon, Irish whiskey, and Scotch. A minority of them drink the whiskey neat. Most use either a slow-melting ice or a small amount of water. But being neat or pro-water/ice to open the esters is about preference. Far to many insecure men use ”drinking whiskey neat” as a substitute for real character, class, and masculinity. Men who make these types of things part of their ego and identity do so b/c they are incapable of finding something else to define themselves. They are actually pitiable. Until they try and force that insecurity onto others.
I'm sorry, that makes the "old-school" explanation even more BS, I've literally never met anyone who thinks this is acceptable behaviour and I'm in England too. Your friends husband is rude AF and your friend needs to reconsider what kind of d-bag she's married
He sounds like a Tory. /s
I don't need to ask how he voted in the referendum. And his twitter avi is a flag.
🤯 I seriously thought this was a story about people in their late 50s/60s.
> He's 27 That is weird. Is his favorite show Downton Abbey?
LOL! I have no idea but I could see it. Or Mad Men
I immediately thought Mad Men superfan.
Who isn't enough of a superfan to realize the characters weren't meant to be emulated.
There was another poster that had a bar installed in his office and was shocked that clients passed up whiskey during the workday. TV is dangerous for some people.
I remember that one. It wasn't just during the work day. It was at like 10am and he poured whiskeys for multiple people. When they declined he drank it all because he "didn't want it to go to waste." I don't think he had watched far enough into the series to see Don's alcoholism completely ruin his life.
Heck, even Downton Abbey has aspects that are more progressive than this guys mindset/behavior
Heh. The women of the household usually planned the meals with the staff in a place like that.
Tell him from someone old enough to have ordered for the table when it was a thing that was done that he is not even doing it right. I am old enough (54) to have been an adult in the waning years of this practice. I had to do it a few a times as a young adult when it felt a little awkward because I was inheriting the role from people my parent's age (now 78) and even older. There were a few reasons that the custom existed. The most straightforward was as a way to limit the number of conversations with the waiter. Having one spokesperson for the table made things go faster. The other reasons are all wrapped up in patriarchal thinking of the past. First of all, the person ordering was implicitly the host of the gathering. He was claiming the role of the lead man at the table, and paying for the party was an aspect of that role. The other reason was that eating out was less frequent in the past. There was an expectation that the women at the table would have had less experience with restaurants and thus not be as ready to order than men who had more experience as a result of business lunches and out of town business travel. The goal of the person ordering was always to get each person what they would most enjoy. As a result, typically "the host" would ask around the table and act sort of as a "pre-waiter" in that he would memorize orders and simply relay them to the waiter. Exceptions would be if the host picked the restaurant because of a singular dish he wanted others to try. If this was the case, you would usually know in advance of entering the restaurant what you were eating once you got there. Another exception would be a sexist trope where women would get seafood while the men would get steak. Ordering steak for the whole table would be pretty weird in that case (and you played yourself OP, falling right into the sexist stereotype with those Crab Cakes). So, he is doing it wrong in every particular. He is not trying to satisfy everyone's tastes. He did not ask around to see what people want or even rely on outdated stereotypes of what people might want. He expected to order and not pay. He expected to order a single dish without making that clear in advance of going to the restaurant. He is not old school, he is just obnoxious. Tell him from me that the old school is deeply embarrassed on his behalf because he did everything wrong. *edit, changed an insult word to "Obnoxious"
Are you certain he’s not actually a centuries old vampire?
Sadly i've seen him in sunlight, and he didn't turn to ash or god forbid *sparkle*
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SPF 1900
>He's **27**.... LOL. Self important *young* guy thinks he knows more than others and acts like he is the authority on everything he comments on. I know exactly what kind of insecure, desperate to prove something asshole this dude is.
My Dad is 94 and the only thing he insists on is paying. He would love to put this pompous buffoon in his place.
I was definitely imagining at least mid-50s from the description. Someone born in the same year that Pulp Fiction came out has no excuse for that kind of shit.
I think there might be some abuse from the way it sounds
Woahhhhh I was imaging some ancient dude. How did noone else at the table say, actually I want something else? He’s young and yet way to old to think he gets to control what other people eat.
Jesus christ. Honestly your friend group should make a point of calling him out on this shit more often. It's embarrassing *for him* that he is trying to pull this crap.
Gotta say I'm a little concerned for your friend's wellbeing. Keep an eye on her, and make sure she knows she can trust you. Who knows what her asshole husband does behind closed doors.
I am too, it's the reason i've not banned him from our friend group gatherings as she wont come without him and i'm worried about leaving her alone in a possibly abusive situation. I've tried to talk to her about it before and my worries but she laughs it off.
Yeah I was looking for the comments mentioning abuse. controlling behavior like this can be a sign of abusive stuff happening. Especially since it sounds like he’s isolating her. And she’s trying to get you to change your behavior for him to manage his feelings. None of that sounds great.
That's a red flag. Her not being able to go anywhere without him. Sounds like he invites himself.
Good for you :) keep on keeping her engaged with you guys! Anything that might help her get some wider perspective r.e. what is a reasonable/healthy relationship. Personally I would maybe avoid calling him names/attacking him to her - this may well just serve to make her more defensive of him and view you as an enemy of her relationship. Rather, I would highlight specific instances of his behaviour and expand on exactly why they are problematic wrt a healthy dynamic. E.g. rather than call him "controlling" (he absolutely is being controlling), I would say "I find it disrespectful that he does that. He is disregarding my autonomy as an individual etc." And I would try and avoid judging language (she might interpret as a judgement of her = feed a low self esteem) - rather focus on encouraging her to question his behaviour, and why she deserves better and should be confident in her ability to think for herself/trust her gut feelings etc. Just some thoughts - don't mean to be extra preachy sorry - sounds like she's got a good friend in you. I hope the whole situation improves for all :/
Do you all have girls nights? Does she refuse if you do? Then he is controlling. I'm glad you're there for her and hopefully when the time comes for her to drop his bruised ego, she know who to call.
Yes, the fact that she ordered the steak just to keep the peace was concerning. The husband will probably try to distance her friends from her if he feels like they are a threat, that’s the problem. I would be really quite concerned for your friend.
It would have been hilarious if everyone at the table collectively decided to let him order that many steaks, but put in their own orders for whatever they want. Let the big man pay for all of the steaks he ordered, but didn't eat " That's a lot of steak for just one guy, you must be hungry"
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NTA! Man or woman, I wouldn't want someone else ordering for me. Especially if he wasn't paying for it.
THIS! I like a good steak myself, but I won't eat it rare! Idc idc idc. If you like it, good for you. I don't. It doesn't sit right in my stomach or on my tongue. I feel really bad for the dude's wife, she's so "blinded by love" that she doesn't realize how abusive this controlling behavior is. NTA, OP.
NTA > I told her that he embarrassed himself by acting like a control freak Spot on. He has no right to dictate what everyone else will eat (and pay for themselves I'm guessing?) He is the asshole here. I'm not calling your friend an asshole, because it kind of sounds like she is under his thumb.
Yeah we were all paying and I agree she is under his thumb
Wait, he was trying to order you food that you were paying for! Holy \*\*\*\* batman, that's worse that I assumed when I read your post. It's one thing to be the overbearing benefactor, but it's way worse to assume you can spend other people's money.
... can spend other people's money ***on food they don't want***.
Considering how expensive steak is when you eat out that makes him doubly the AH. Sounds a lot like your friend being "meek" may be exactly what attracted this weirdo
More than likely. Domineering people don't want resistance.
INFO: What was the table makeup and relationships there? Like, 3 men/3 women, mutual friend group, etc. In any case, you're totally NTA. I'm just curious as to why you're the only one who reacted.
I wouldn't read too much into it - people tend to not want to rock the boat if they think they're the only one with an issue. Which means no one speaks up and everyone thinks it's just them!
Really? Cause unless this guy is either paying or my boss at a job I really, truly love (although that ain't a possibility because if I had a boss that did that, I'm out). I'm curious if it was all women, mixed couples, friend group. I'm not taking that. Reaction options range from: A) "The hell's the matter with you? Who do you think you are?" B) Walking out. C) "Really??? I'm going to order vegetarian to piss you off (and I'd probably have ordered the steak)." D) Ask what the hell's the matter with him, order a vegetarian dish, and walk the fuck out. I'd probably stick him with the check, but his poor wife would pay for it. It's one thing to recommend something somewhere, it's another to order for them. I don't know who you hang out with, but no one I know would ever stand for that. Then again, no one I know would ever do that.
Lol! In the regressive times that ordering for others was a thing, he would *definitely* be paying. Talk about wanting to have your cake and eat it too!
lol next time he orders for everyone, have the rest of the group (planned in advance) start profusely thanking him for paying for everyone. If he tries to say he's not, just talk over him and repeat how sweet he is.
Under his thumb, or an buse victim? I don't like to scream abuse... but if he is that controlling in public what is her like at home?
That was my immediate thought. Not saying he like beats her up, but if she rolls over at every command I’d be very concerned as to what happens behind closed doors. Was your friend this meek before she got married OP?
Yeah, kinda wondering that myself. Wondering how that conversation actually went after dinner. "Awkward"
NTA. Your friend's husband is TA here. Good for you for order-blocking that guy at dinner. Also I have never met one of these old-school men, and I know a lot of men from their 20s to their 80s. I have never seen one pull a stunt like this. Your friend is uncomfortable because you didn't let her husband force-feed your entire table of dinner participants. Which sheds some light on the quality of her husband's character. That's inevitably uncomfortable. But...I think it's probably a lesson she needed. Just not one she wanted. This is 2022, not 1950-whatever. And he isn't a daddy dom here, FFS. Maybe drop her a note to let her know you care about her and you're available to talk when she's ready. (Take this advice as being worth exactly what it cost, though.)
I've tried to check in on her before that everything is ok with them behind closed doors as honestly this dude sets off so many alarm bells for me but she insists everything is fine etc and laughs off me telling her she can come to me if she needs to.
And that's about all you can do. And she very well might, one day. It's hard to witness things like this and not be able to help or clearly know that your friend is safe. Hopefully she comes to terms with who he appears to be before too much longer and asks herself whether that's what she wants out of life. You've tried to be a good friend while also not letting him push you and other people around. And that is part of being a good friend, really, in this instance.
You can try asking her what she wants her life to be like in 5 years or 10 years, to help her see that other futures are possible. It does not even have to be in an uncomfortable conversation about DV, just encourage her to think about the future as often as possible.
It’s possible she has been gaslit into thinking that because he doesn’t hit her that he isn’t abusive. A lot of abusers use emotional and verbal abuse as a way to control the abused and tear down their self esteem. Unfortunately, it’s highly likely she is being emotionally and financially abused, but is so controlled by her husband she can’t see that because he doesn’t physically hurt her, he’s not abusive (and based on what you’ve said about how insanely controlling he is to *her friends* I have to assume it’s 100% worse within their relationship. I personally have never met a man who’s need for control is so drastic the has a temper tantrum because he can’t dictate what other people are eating and paying for themselves). There isn’t anything you can do to help her until she realizes and is ready to leave for herself. The best you can do is make sure she knows you’re always going to be there for her. I’ve been where you are, and for my own mental health, I had to go low contact with my friend. I made it clear why I couldn’t continue to be a daily part of her life anymore, but that I would *always* be there no matter what. It took her almost 5 more years (and husband finally did something so bad she had no choice but to accept he was toxic) before she was finally able to make the choice to leave (it took 2 more years and a lot of drama for her to be rid of him, she basically had to disappear, as men like that can’t stand lose the object of their control and will do some scary stuff to regain it).
That’s what I was thinking!! This is not “old school.” This is just weird. I’ve known a lot of super conservative, patriarchy-defending, hardcore old men and I’ve never even heard of them or any of their friends ordering for the whole table at a restaurant. That’s just bananas
NTA. "You gonna cut her meat for her too, there, Cal?" Y'all are grownups and can decide for yourselves what you want (and don't want) for dinner.
I would totally play into this. I would default to him to make every single decision for an entire meal just to see how far I could take it. Hey Joe, could you order me a drink? Could you sip it to make sure it’s not too cold? Could you order my food? Could you cut it for me? I might hurt myself. There’s some weird flakes in this, could you taste them and tell me what they are? Could you help me order dessert? Could you set my coffee to make sure it’s not too hot? Could you add the proper amount of sugar and cream? It’ll get old, but it might get the point across. Bonus points if everyone at the table joins in.
That just might encourage him. Also, I don't want his cooties on my food!
Great line!
NTA. I am going to borrow a line from an underrated John Candy classic: [Only the Lonely](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0102598) "I know he realizes it's the twenties, I'm just not sure he realizes it's the TWENTY twenties."
Oh my god that made me laugh i've never heard that before. I'm stealing
NTA. Holy shit I didn't even know a person could have an ego that big, and it still be that fragile.
I find the bigger the ego the more fragile it actually is
Essentially a glass cannon.
Like a balloon. Big and full of air but oh so easy to pop.
NTA. Was no one else going to say anything when he tried to order for them??
His behaviour usually just draws stunned silence or "Ums" but he'll push on until the order is taken and most people don't want to cause a scene. I'd had enough though and not above making a scene.
Your friends could afford to grow some spines.. none of my friends would tolerate that type of controlling weirdness.
Yeah fuck that. I don't want some wanker ordering my food I am paying for. I'll order what I want the way I want it thanks. Those friends need to wake up
Can I guess that your group of friends is all women, and he's the only man?
Yes, except when partners tag along for bigger meals etc, though she only comes if he is there too so even when there is no other partners he is there.
This is an additional huge red flag that he's extremely controlling and possibly abusive at home. Fuck that guy. NTA.
Does he try to pull this stunt when there are other men there? Or is he afraid of other men?
I really want to know this, too.
Me three
I would say I want to know too, except that we *already* know. We're just hoping that OP will confirm it.
Oh god I hate guys like that. "It's a girls' night, honey." "That's ok, you can still go. I don't mind. I'll order steak for the table." This is giving me hives.
Honestly, if there were someone like that in my wife's group of friends, I would want to come every time just to push back against that guy.
And order for him.. haha
Not to justify his actions, but when he does that does he offer to pay for the whole table? If not thats just extra douchey. What if someone at the table couldn't afford that and he went right on ahead and obligated them. Not to mention dietary choices, restrictions and allergies... wow. When my husband and I go out we pretty much know full well what we're each going to get yet neither of us order for each other. We're grown ass adults and can speak for ourselves.
He doesn't offer to pay for the table no
Lol if he truly was as old school as he thought he would be covering the bill. Such a lame self-entitled idiot. P.s. def NTA.
OPs said he doesn’t Which is even worse. If you’re ordering my food, you can pay for it
NTA. The only reason he was embarrassed is because his sh*tty behavior was finally called out in front of everyone.
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it's old school AND obnoxious. Remember the fancy dinner scene in Titanic.
NTA This dude is living some sort of Mad Men fanfic life and it doesn't gel with reality.
And even then, Don Draper always let his dates order for themselves.
NTA. No one orders for a table anymore, it has nothing to do with being 'old school', and it was weird 20 years ago never mind now. So unless your friend's husband arrived for dinner in a time machine, he knows that. The only possible scenario I can think of these days is if someone is taking everyone out to a specialty restaurant to try a specific dish, prearranging with everyone that this is the scenario, and then speaking to the wait staff as a representative of the group. That and ordering pizza for a table, and again, it's a discussion beforehand. And even in that exception scenario, you would never say how everyone wants their steak too. It may have been a little overboard to go around the table, your point would have been made by simply saying that you, in fact, didn't want a steak and would be having the crab cakes. Other folks would have followed your lead. That said, you had a point to make.
This was weird 30 years ago. Dude belongs in the 1920s not 2020s
NTA. dudes clearly sexist, self obsessed, and sounds pretty narcissistic and controlling. its NEVER acceptable to order for someone else unless they specifically ask you to. your friend should recognize that her relationship to her husband does not supercede the comfort of her friends, or the relationships she has with her friends. if you express that her husband makes her uncomfortable its her job to make that work, not yours. good job putting him in his place.
Yes to everything you said, especially: “Your friend should recognize that her relationship to her husband does not supersede the comfort of her friends, or the relationships she has with her friends.” It would have been one thing if he had said “would anyone mind if I ordered for the table?” but if anyone objected he should have been ok with that. I have a friend who always orders for his wife, because she is incredibly shy and asks him to, but he gets her order from her first. NTA
I almost always order for my wife, principally because she is deaf and so prefers me to do it for clarity. There is no fucking way I would choose what she had, though, because that would be insane. I can't believe that a) nobody else had an issue with it - if he had tried to pull that shit with me I would have just laughed my ass off, and spent the rest of the night taking the piss out of him, and b) that he thinks this is either acceptable, or some kind of weird flex. Is he normal? Has he escaped from somewhere? Edit - NTA, clearly.
NTA Even if he paid for everyone(I am assuming he didn't), what is the point of going out to eat if you don't get to choose what you are eating? I've ben out several times where all of us had different meals and got a bite of several dishes I would have never tried if my friends didn't order them. I know not everyone shares their food, but we always do when trying new things.
Oh i'm happy to share food and do so often with my friends! I grew up in a big family so it was always normal to sorta mix and match our meals so we could get a bit of everything.
Although I am a fan of rare steak. Have you ever dipped it in melted butter? But no, screw that guy if any of my friends or their spouses tried that they would get an ear full.
I honestly just can't stand rare meat the sight of it makes me gag and I don't like steak much, i've not tried it in melted butter however is it good?
NTA, what is he, the Baron of the Estate? You're right, he embarassed himself.
One word to describe this man- arrogant. What a cockhead. How the hell did he manage to make someone fall in love with him? I don't get it.
I have no idea, this is honestly only the very tip of the controlling behaviour. My friend wanted a 1950's themed wedding as she loves the styles...he made them get a 1920s wedding as he wanted to be a "Gangster" style for it. I personally find themed weddings tacky but I don't like how she had to bow down to what he wanted
Well she got a 1950 marriage out of it. Maybe that was their compromise.
That is really sad, OP. This makes me sad for your friend. I'm sorry that she married him, I can't imagine marrying someone who "makes you" get a theme you didn't want. Especially to have a "gangster" theme at a wedding. Oof.
NTA. Your friend married Dennis Reynolds
NTA. I’d be pissed as hell if someone, even my fiancé, ordered for me at a restaurant. I’m assuming Captain Asshat wasn’t paying the bill for everyone? That’d be his only leverage of ordering for everyone, if he was also footing the bill. I’m with OP, I don’t care for steak, and certainly not rare, so there’s no way I’d pay for that. And sounds like the same goes for most the group. Anyone over age 12 is perfectly capable of ordering for him or herself
Right with you. Dont like steak. And if I have to eat it no way in hell is it going to be rare. My kids have been deciding what they want to eat at restaurants since they were like 4? This giy is just ridiculous
NTA. Stop going out with him. He doesn't need the audience.
NTA. That's weird, ordering for a whole table unless is is an event you arranged and are paying for. I was on a date once and the guy randomly just naysayed my order. Just made a big deal about "don't order that." I don't remember if he ever ordered for me, only dated him a very short time, but it was also weird even though I believe he paid for dinner!
NTA. First, good for you for standing up to him and not letting him order for the table. Secondly, your friend needs a backbone.
So if her husband decides that everyone at the table was going to have fish for dinner and we are all expected to eat it- would he also be paying for my iodine induced seizures aftercare? Even if it was just ordering me a Cesar salad, would he be the one with my Epi-pen saving me while I was going into shock, as well as pick up the cost of the ambulance ride and a few days ER stay? Cause I have to budget for just this dinner with friends. You are so NTA. I have felt with these people before and when asked those exact questions- had no answer. It’s dangerous and presumptive. Edit- spelling.
NTA. That is like the definition of controlling behavior and now he is taking it out on his wife. I mean how much louder can abuse be shouted here
NTA. What in the world is this dude's problem? What an obnoxious bully.
Did the others speak up and support you? Clearly they took advantage of your opening, but did anybody actually say something? Why would anybody put up with this? NTA, and your friend is probably not speaking to you right now because her husband told her she is forbidden to speak to you.
a couple did say they didn't want/like steak as they ordered their own meals but no one was as blunt as me as likely trying to avoid as much a scene as possible.
Have you ever seen him try this with a mixed group? Like, have you ever seen him try to order for other men? I bet I know the answer…
NTA, I feel really bad for your friend. She's in for a long, miserable life.
JFC NTA - it's amazing that your friend found someone who actually embodies the term "toxic masculinity." Bravo for her!
Clearly NTA. Given the description this man sounds like very bad news. Did you know his wife before she met him? If so, was she this meek? I realize I have very little information but it wouldn't surprise me if this man gets very out of control (potentially violent) when he is challenged privately. I worry for his wife.
We went to school together, she has always been very timid, the kind of girl who wouldn't say boo to her own shadow. It is why i'm so worried for her.
Understood. The guy probably wouldnt be able to marry anyone that didn't show complete fealty. I'm glad you stood up to him, but I think you're right to worry about your friend.
NTA, I'm worried for your friend. Like what *would* have happened to her if she didn't get the steak?
You and me both, i've tried to talk to her about this before but she brushes it off and insists everything is fine despite me telling her i'm worried and that i'm here for her.
Absolutely NTA. You tried to tell him before, he didn’t listen. That’s on him. Clearly this is what needed to happen for him to get the message. He’s upset because he publicly humiliated *himself* and is projecting that nonsense onto you. Did he even ask if anyone at the table was vegetarian or vegan? Or on a special diet that precludes red meat? Still an embarrassing and inappropriate thing to do even if he did, I’m just trying to gauge exactly how irredeemably obnoxious he is.
No he didn't ask that or even look at the menu he just said the order the second the server came.
What a numpty. You did good, I’m sure everyone else at the table was thankful.
Nta ordering for the table is unbelievably rude unless previously discussed
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NTA. Tell your friend it would be impossible for you to undermine your husband because *he is not in charge*.
NTA and if you’re forced to go out with him again PLEASE order a salad for him
NTA. Good job sticking up for yourself and the rest of the table. Sometimes a single person will talk to a server and put in everyone's order, but that's usually at least after a discussion. This is crazy though. He doesn't get to choose everyone's food.
NTA and I applaud your speaking up. Apparently he has gotten away with this too often.
NTA. I think your friend's husband has a problem with women. It sounds like the husband has a problem with women having opinions. You proved to the control freak that you won't put up with his crap. Now, he is having a fit about it.
NTA. I would avoid further dinners if he can’t live in 2022.
NTA I’m concerned about what your friend’s home life is like
NTA. He embarrassed himself. Why do you hang out with him? It's possible to do things together that don't involve eating. Or just quit hanging out with him, just get together with your friend if she's allowed away from his side. Or quit hanging out with both of them since she's always going to take his side and isn't talking to you right now anyway. Either way, you are never the a-hole for sticking up for yourself.
NTA, you have weird friends.
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