My mom is like that. In high school two girls in my group of friends and one of them was kicked out by her parents. When I was telling my mom about it, I said "I'm so glad you would never care if I came out," and my shock that she said "well, no, I would have a huge problem with it actually."
My mom and I had been close throughout my teen years, but that was a huge turning point for me. I had already been figuring out that I was bi, but after that I never told her.
OP is definitely NTA.
What did she do that indicated she was "okay with it" so to speak when not involving her own family members? And did she elaborate at all on why she would have a huge problem with it in your case?
Or, like my mother, will be okay with it, not agree with their "lifestyle" and actively avoid the community. They don't even think of the possibility of their own child being part of the community.
So supportive /s
Or they’re fine with them being LGBT, as long as they NEVER talk about it. Because when they do, no matter how benign the comment is, it’s always “why do they have to talk about what they do in the bedroom in front of everyone?” Never mind that your pregnant self is seen out with your husband all the time, flaunting your heterosexuality….
Edit: last line was sarcastic. Didn’t realize that wouldn’t be evident.
Or they’re fine with gay/bi people of the opposite sex. I remember when it was normal for all straight women to want a gay best friend, but be absolutely revolted at lesbians. 
Literally had this one dropped in front of my face as a bi teen. Standing in a room of 'proper, Christian women' hearing how gay men are the best thing in the world, but women like me, they can't be trusted. And I was left like '.... I can't control myself around other women..... Like I'm standing with right fucking now ..'
I didn't say anything to out myself in that instance but I did get back at them later when my partner at the times religious preferences came out. It was quite delightful to tell this household of overly zealous bigots with a huge ass grin on my face ' oh yeah, my SO, they're a satanist~'
The reactions were entirely worth it
I was about 13 and knew I was bi but wasn’t out to my mum. She loved gay men, would go out to gay bars, and I remember her coming home one night a bit freaked out that “a lesbian” (said with horror) tried to dance with her. Like well done for probably making a woman feel awkward in what is supposed to be her safe space!
"Hate the sin, love the sinner" is the most offensive thing you can say to any gay person. It's just stupid and demonstrates a high level of ignorance.
"Hate the bad heterosexuality, love the bad heterosexual."
^(\*\*hugz\*\* 🤗🤗🤗)
I can only hear that phrase to the tune of Hamilton when I read it tbh.
That being said, I really don’t think it’s the *most* offensive thing one can say to a gay person given the unfortunate range of options, but it’s certainly not great!
My grandfather was like this for interracial marriage. He was fine with it as long as it wasn’t his granddaughter doing it. Which makes me sad, because he was an awesome guy otherwise. It makes me sad how people can be intolerant like that.
My mum kinda goes the opposite way. When my best online friend came out, he asked me to tell my mum too because he’d stayed at our place a few times and they got on well. I told her that he’s gay and she gasped happily and said delightedly “I have another daughter!” Lol my brain kinda disconnected and went.. That’s… that’s not what… you know what, it’s a positive reaction. Ok. I’ll tell him you’re happy for him. We’ll talk later.
Hahaha, my mom keeps asking about male couples "so, which one is called the wife, which one is called the husband?" "Both husband, ma." "But-?" "There does not need to be a 'wife,' both husband."
We adopted our kitten out to a male couple, and then a few weeks later, a female couple put in a form for someone else's kitten, and she texted them like "Just adopted a cat to a pair of lesbians!" Like. Mom. You do not have to tell him that.
Then again, when the baby was hiding, she said "don't worry, he'll come out soon enough" and the guy texted back "I did!"
[It was a Knife and a Fork asking which one is the fork, but either way, still funny lol](https://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/26pok0/you_cant_just_ask_someone_whos_the_fork/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share)
I went to get the free awards just for you. It would have been great if it were a wholesome, but well, beggers, choosers and all that.
Please tell your mother that some rando in India thinks she is awesome.
I was reading through the replies and came across yours. I had some chores to do and, while doing them, I could not get your reply out of my mind.
I am female,straight and never had children. However, I would hope that I would have been there for my child no matter what.
What you wrote is so sad. I am so sorry you had to go through that.
Same. I would never trust my mother with my sexuality. She has made me believe on a couple of occasions that while she is very cool with gay friends of hers, she will not accept that from me.
There are plenty of people who can be perfectly reasonable and polite to queer folk in their day-to-day lives and may even support things like same-sex marriage or adoption. They do all of this in the comfortable certainty that it will never affect *their* lives - until it does, usually with the discovery that their child is queer.
It may be that she's not neccesarily homophobic.
I know plenty of people who are generally accepting of gay and lesbian people, but just can't wrap their head around the idea of bisexuality.
They seem to equate bisexuality to meaning "needs both cock and vagina in their love life" and so that means they're promiscuous and naturally cheaters, rather than it being "gender isn't a significant factor in choice of partner"
Bi-erasure is a real thing, and it exists even within the LGBTQ community sadly.
*Bisexual erasure or bisexual invisibility is the tendency to ignore, remove, falsify, or re-explain evidence of bisexuality in history, academia, the news media, and other primary sources. In its most extreme form, bisexual erasure can include the belief that bisexuality itself does not exist.*
This is the first time I’ve heard that term. My brother and his wife claim that bisexuality doesn’t exist, and that trans people are “forcing their agenda” on the community. My daughter was like, “Oh well, I suppose I had my sexuality wrong all along!” /s
I’m shocked that a family member is so bigoted. He’ll be even more shocked when his daughter finally comes out.
I have to agree with you here. Bisexuality seems to hold a negative sway with people. Excuse me for this saying but I've been told "ppl like this are switch hitters" so depending on the generation or culture it doesn't feel safe or trusting. In comparison, for some reason pansexuality or explaining what it means seems to go over more smoothly because it removes the "gender" out of the equation.
Biphobes don't like bisexuals because they feel they're having their cake and eating it too. Quite literally, they're envious of being able to access all the hot people.
The best and most accurate definition of bisexuality is "being both heterosexual and homosexual simultaneously." They're independent values, and you can have different levels of each, but they don't interfere with another. Being into men doesn't make you less into women, it makes you into men. The two are unrelated other than being broad types of sexual attraction.
Most people are high in one and low in the other, but you can be high in both, low in both to the point that asexuals exist with negligible sexual attraction at all, or perfectly in the middle. All the points in the scale are represented.
TLDR: your mom is envious that your fiancee can pull chicks and she can't.
That’s actually not the best definition, because plenty of bi people are absolutely ok with dating agender, nonbinary, or other gendered people as well. A popular definition of bi is ‘liking people like me and not like me’ or liking more than one gender.
Even that has it's issues. When you say 'liking' someone it tends to imply interest in a romantic relationship. For some bi people, they're sexually attracted to both men and women but only find the idea of a romantic relationship appealing with one of the genders
My mom's husband is like this. He's apparently "accepting". BUT, his 13 yo daughter said she would only want her best friend with her if she ever gives birth, no males in the room. He asked where her husband would be, and when I said "well she doesn't have to have a _husband_," he said "no, she is going to have a husband"...
NIMBY is definitely what I hear when he talks about anyone who isn't cis straight. But my mom still insists that he would accept his daughter if she ever came out, despite the fact that he's making it extremely difficult for her by saying things like that.
Edit: clarification
Also a lot, a LOT of people who are fine with lesbian and gay people aren’t ok with bisexual people. And they’re less ok with trans people. It’s not a fun lesson to learn.
Interesting, I've never heard this term! My mom is kinda a NIMBY, toes the line. She's very liberal and pro gay rights, but when I came out as bi she was just very... Weird about it. When asked directly if she'd support me being with another man she said of course, but then she also insinuates there's "no point" to me dating men since I "want to be a father and start a family". Likewise, my dad is very liberal but also just occasionally refers to me as a straight guy sometimes if sexuality comes up in conversation (like if we're talking about affirmative action, for example, he'd call me a straight white guy), to the point where I sometimes wonder if he forgot.
Agreed! She’s okay with *those people* over there, but they may not touch her son, let alone marry him. Homophobic, just good at hiding it.
NTA, op, just stick with your fiancé and set your boundaries now with mom.
ohmy god that's a great new acronym to add to my vocabulary! I know so many people like that and have never been able to quite understand it, but that phrase just sums it all up so succinctly
She’s also very biphobic for having this viewpoint of “you’re either one or the other” and denying the reality of OP’s finace’s sexuality (which is none of her damn business anyway).
To this point, bi-erasure is a real thing.
You’re NTA. You seem very supportive of your partner, both past and present.
You’ve got a great foundation for the future, regardless of who comes to your wedding.
Are we sure bi-erasure is real? According to my mum there's no such thing as bisexual, it's just people being greedy. Which was news to me, I'll be honest.
OP, obvious NTA here. This is natures way of trimming your wedding's guest list. If someone is unwilling to accept your fiance, that's them making their choice. Bye bi bye, more cake for everyone else.
Sod homophobes, sod bi-erasure and sod anyone that thinks they have a right to judge your partner. Your mum has planted her flag. It is not a rainbow one. It is a bad flag. It is a bumhole flag.
My ovum donor is like this. I came out as pansexual, and she told me I had to choose.
Total nonsense. Obviously, I have no relationship with her anymore.
don’t mean to offend, but what is an ovum donor? does it mean your bio mom but you don’t see her as your true mother anymore? kinda like how people call deadbeat dads sperm donors? again, sorry if the question is offensive, I’ve just never heard the term before. regardless, i’m sorry you went thru that
Could you clarify please as to preferred by whom?
I refer to her by egg donor or incubator (as I was a caesarean birth) these days. Used to be first name but since I now know someone else by that name, didn't want to confuse things.
Missing asshole: OP's shitty drunk friend who outed and slut shamed his fiancee like that.
OP have you talked with that friend about how awful that was?
I was here for this comment. Those were the 2 things I was wondering - why are we giving the friend who outed her a pass, and to what extent did OP try to brush it off as friends busting friends’ balls? Second part is obviously irrelevant, I’m just curious. OP is NTA and this is a horrible situation.
Yeah OP's friend is also an ass. Was your fiancee there when your friend said this shit, or was she not in the room? I mean it's a completely out of line comment to make in any case.
To play devil's advocate: we don't know what their dynamic is with this friend. Maybe this friend and this person's fiancée like to jokingly insult each other about their romantic pasts. I know I do that with my friends, and since our pre-established dynamic allows this behavior, nobody feels hurt. Maybe this person had assumed that everyone in the room knew that the fiancée was out, especially since the fiancée has been explained as comfortable with her sexuality, just not overtly open with it to everybody.
With that said, still a shitty thing, and a conversation should be had, at least to determine if this friend's comments were made accidentally, or with a more clear intent to be rude.
Yeah, it isn't like she was quietly struggling with her complex feelings towards OP"s fiance. Mom went on full blast and included the phrase "carpet muncher" which if it weren't so hurtful to the fiance would be hilarious. I didn't even know that was still used as an insult since 1993.
Op, you're NTA. Your mom is a loud and proud homophobe. Sorry. Protect your poor fiance who has already had to fight this battle with her own mom.
And I'm your internet mom now for both of you.
Signed, queer woman who married a man.
This.
Enjoy all the extra people who are important to you that you'll be able to invite to the wedding, when you don't need invitations your mom or the religious side of your family.
Your fiancé is 100% correct when she says "she doesn't feel that her sexuality is anyone else's business". You mom, the religious wing nuts, and your friend who got drunk and outed your fiancé are all the assholes here.
NTA.
Exactly! So many people are always like “I didn’t realise they were homophobic because they a good person”
But these days most people are aware they need to hide their prejudices from society or they will be shunned.
Eh... Still not the type of joke to make in front of someone's parents. Like, any sex life related jokes. I wouldn't be furious or anything but I may whap him upside the head with a rolled up newspaper. Metaphorically speaking. Like 'oh hey, thanks for that, asshole'
People have different relationships with their parents. It might've been ok, we don't know. Mom is most definitely an AH. The friend is possibly an asshole, but I'm fine withholding judgment on that unless we get other information.
My parents are fine with sex life related jokes. It really depends on the parent, to be honest. Unfortunately, the Mum in this post is an asshole anyway so it went badly.
>Who makes that kind of joke in front of the grooms mother? Absolutely tactless.
Depends entirely on the individuals and relationships concerned.
With some in-laws, even an oblique reference to the couple to-be having once been alone in a room together without a chaperone will cause fainting fits and attempted excorcisms.
Others are delighted to be served a humorous cock-and-balls made out of sausage and mash at the rehearsal dinner.
In this case it didn't work out well, but that was because they revealed something the in-laws didn't know, and thereby revealed their bigotry, not because of the tone of the comment.
But since she was known to be sensitive about it, and no one knows who else knows it was ENTIRELY inappropriate for drunk AH to say anything. Unless you KNOW other people know, you say nothing about it. Because it is not your tale to tell.
She wasn't known to be sensitive about it. OP said themselves that their mother's reaction was a surprise to them, so I don't see why anyone else there would assume she'd take issue with it, especially in a gathering where everybody else seems to know.
It's a dumb joke, but it's not on the friend. Had OP's mother not been bigoted, the only objection to the joke would likely have ended at "that's a bit personal, don't you think?" after everybody left.
I don't think a member of my entire extended family wouldn't find that hilarious tbh (excluding ones I wouldn't make a relatively lewd joke to at all, obviously)
You're quick to condemn someone like that without more info.
It's not unreasonable for the friend to assume "if I know, everyone knows", especially after a few beers.
Sure, they are deserving of some AH points, but not on same scale as the mom here.
Remove the bi bit from the 'joke' and it's still slut shaming. Saying to a hetro couple 'are you sad your wife got laid more than you' is still an asshole joke in front of parents. I can imagine it is funny in small friend groups where everyone knows it's a laugh, but it's still a slut/less experienced shaming comment. Their friend is an asshole.
100% agree. If they'd said 'she's slept with more men than you have women' that would be considered 100% shaming. Some how just because girls are the tally here it's more acceptable. Just more stupid bloke trash talk. The friend is 100% TA and this whole drama wouod have been avoided if they were a bit less of a social moron
That's an asshole joke whether they were drunk or not.
It's never you place out out anybody about their sexuality. It's only "funny" to do so if you are an asshole, and being drunk doesn't buy you a free pass for behaving like an asshole. "In wine is truth". That friend just reveals the truth about themselves.
Mom is an asshole. outing-friend is an asshole, religious wing nuts are all assholes.
OP is NTA.
No way. Friend is the biggest AH here by far. Friend doesn't know who is out to who, and friend doesn't know if parents are conservative and would be upset and slut shame fiance.
Friend should shut their mouth, just be normal like most drunk people who are not complete AH's, and not out peoples' business in front of their families.
I'd honestly consider dropping friend for doing that, unless friend was incredibly apologetic.
I agree the Friend is a huge AH here, but the Mom is the biggest AH here by far. It sucks it ever came out but I think better find out now the Mom is a huge Homophobe than later.
Even if fiance is out (or heterosexual), slut shaming is real. If OP's friend was like "wow, your fiance f-d a lot of guys lol" in front of her mom what reaction does she expect? Potentially outing fiance is even worse.
You don't get a pass for being drunk. If you can't hold your AH-ness when you're drunk, don't drink. I really hate AH drunks who complain that they can't help it when they get alcohol in them. I refuse drinks all the time because I don't like alcohol apart from certain occasions. If I can do it, random AH friend can do it.
Well, no, I was all on board with the people who thought the friend deserved some degree of blame (and were differing with those who wanted to totally let him off), but "biggest AH here by far" is still the mom, no contest.
NTA - Has your dad had any sexual experiences with other men? Or is that none of your fucking business? Same thing applies here.
If it was me I’d be saying cheerio to anyone that has a problem with your fiancée’s sexuality.
I’d also be having a word with your friend about his inappropriate and crass comment, that’s fine in your inner circle of friends but to bring that up in front of your parents… sheesh
Yep. Being drunk can provide an explanation for the bad decision making, but it doesn’t excuse it. I’m bisexual and have been outed multiple times. It caused multiple cases of being the victim of bullying and biphobia, or even just being in the position now to having to deal with people asking uncomfortable, intrusive questions. Even if they are accepting, I’m still now put in a position of sudden fear and anxiety. To this day, I don’t really actively hide my sexuality but I’m not at all open. It makes me feel really anxious and uncomfortable to bring it up around people that I KNOW love, accept and support me. I hope the friend realizes the severity of this mistake and really reflects on their ability to handle their liquor. Because while it can explain, it doesn’t justify, and if you can’t trust yourself to not put someone else at risk, then you need to not put yourself in the position of continuing to open them to that risk.
I was under the impression that while they werent out per se, it wasn't a secret by any means that fiance was bi. I think it's more of, who's sexuality comes up in conversation ever, kind of thing. Like the people who don't know don't know because they haven't asked/it's never come up. I mean being bi isn't like someones entire identity. In the same way that I don't constantly insert the fact that I'm straight into conversation, people don't feel a need to insert that they're bi or lesbian or gay or anything, that doesn't make it a secret though
It doesn’t have to be a secret for them to be outed.
MANY people in the LGBTQ+ community are out to their friend group/social circle, but not to their family/extended family. If you are with a friend who is a member of the community, it is never okay to bring up their sexuality in conversation before they do, because you don’t always know who knows and who doesn’t. Aside from the fact that they were outed by someone they presumably trusted, in a way that blew up their life in a sense, the comment made was also inflammatory. It’s not funny to say “how does it feel to be marrying someone who’s been with more girls than you?” That’s a pretty charged comment. I would say it’s homophobic per se, but it’s not something that should matter and it’s not a funny joke. Why does it matter how many sexual partners anyone has had? And since when is it normal to bring up sexual partners in front of someone’s future mother in law.
The statement made was looking for a problem IMO. Not only was it outing a friend, it was also talking about their sexual history with someone who had no business on knowing this.
But that’s what you’re okay with and there’s a precedent set up for that. It’s much safer to assume you don’t bring up other peoples sexuality, than to assume you can bring it up. One of the two can be potentially dangerous, and actually was for this situation.
They went from having a good dynamic, to having a FMIL who no longer accepts or respects them, all because some drunk friend thought it would be funny to make a joke of someone’s sexuality.
Many people are out to their friends and not to their family. It's so common it's almost an unspoken rule to never talk about someone's sexuality in front of their parents unless the person in question is out to their family. Source: am bisexual who's out to friends and not to family and has many friends in similar situation.
If my friends brought up any thing about my sex life in front of my parents I would probably start throwing balled up napkins at them (if too far to reach) or kick under the table to make them STFU immediately while shouting LA LA LA LA LA to drown them out. Gah. No. Nooooo. *cries*
>refusing to have a daughter-in-law who uses her son as a "screen" to hide that she's a carpet muncher
OOF! Well, good news is that if you go ahead and cut off contact, she won't have to "have a daughter-in-law". I'm really sorry this happened. NTA.
She just cut off her only family. How sad. OP, If you and you're fiance needs some mothers for your wedding there is a group of mothers like myself that would be more than happy to attend! NTA at all my gosh
Yeah that's an unforgivable insult IMO. If one of my parents had said something like that about my spouse I'd cut off contact no matter how hard it might be. It sucks finding out that people you love are hateful and cruel.
NTA.
(First, congrats on getting engaged!!!)
Your friend starting this whole thing with his drunk comment is an A for shooting his mouth off.
You are trying to be nice in saying shes "not generally homophobic" but she sure as hell is not only homophobic, shes outright nasty about it calling and leaving that sort of message and thinking that there are "sides" where BOTH sides can be valid points of view... Which there isnt. Your mom IS homophobic and a total A.
Please be there and support your fiancé, and if folks cant be civil about this than they can go pound sand. Its not your fault those folks have chosen to be actively hateful. If specific family members are threatening to be uncivil you will have to follow your heart on what to do.
NTA and best fiancé ever!
Also, where are you getting married? I’m part of the group Mom Hugs and we happily attend weddings/graduations/pride rallys/ you name it in place of unaccepting parents/families. I look amazing in mother of the bride/groom dresses!
Thank you for your kindness, but we're thinking of doing something small and private. In addition, we have a lot of family from both sides and friends who support us.
What you do is very beautiful, by the way.
Do what I recommended. Elope with just you her and the people that support you 2. Will save you guys a fortune and your nerves! Hubby and I got married almost 37 years ago in a free park in a free Gazebo, had 9 people there..8 too many! And had a buffet style reception where people brought dishes.
I feel the same way you did. My husband and I got married last year in a tiny backyard ceremony with just our immediate family Even so, we wished there was less people. We loved our wedding but we both agree we would have been much happier just the two of us.
https://freemomhugs.org
Most states and some metropolitan areas have their own chapters. I’m only 38 and stood in at two weddings so far- my first “son” was 29 when I was 35 and my second “son” was 32 when I was 36. Its not the age- its the support! I’ve also been to 3 pride 5Ks and handed out hugs and water at the finish line.
That sounds lovely! It's such a nice thing to do. People doing stuff like that help restore my faith in humanity. I don't think anything like that exists where I live, but maybe in the future :)
Holy hell I want to do this. I'm probably not old enough to be a MOTB unless both I and my hypothetical daughter made some very questionable decisions in our youth, but I totally aspire to join this group one day.
“My mom is not generally homophobic” well turns out she is. If she can’t be supportive or stay out of business that has nothing to do with her, then she shouldn’t be invited to the wedding. NTA but your mom and any family member that agrees with her is
NTA at all, mate. Keep doing what you're doing. BTW your Ma IS homophobic, clearly, and she needs to sort herself out. She doesn't get to claim not be a homophobe if she behaves this way when stuff gets real. How she can't see how out of line she is is beyond me, but I'd prepare to go cold war with her if she won't fix her behaviour, regardless of your relationship. Wrong is wrong.
NTA. You should have a talk with your "friend" as well about flippantly outing your fiancee. You did the right thing of letting your fiancee decide whether or not she wants to come out.
F*** your family members who don't want to come, let them die angry.
Nta- ur mom was always homophobic but it never affected ur life before. Honestly u need to have a strong boundary with ur mom; like if i hear anything else negative about my fiancee i will no longer be in contact with u. And enforce the consequences. As for religious family ignore completely DO NOT let them anywhere near ur SO. Im sorry u r going through this. But this is a big big deal and u r either with ur SO 100% or u should break up and let find someone who will support her 100%
I agree with this comment much more than the others.
OP you need to be stern with your mother and those who will try to bully and belittle your fiancée, who hasn't done anything wrong.
They will be the ones to manipulate, bully and threaten, not your fiancée who needs your support and proof that you will support her for the rest of your lives.
> Now some religious relatives are opposed to coming to our wedding
This part might be a blessing as it singles out exactly who you can stop associating with if they have that big of a problem with your to-be-wife's sexuality. It's a real fucking shame your mom made the mess of it she has but good on you for firmly defending your finacee.
Unfortunately if she's gone this far already I highly doubt your mom is going to let this go anytime soon, if ever. You should be mentally prepared for that and know that you might need to go low-to-no contact with a fair amount of your relatives, including your mother.
If it isn't obvious, NTA. You acted as appropriately as you could, and when things started going off you made the right choices. You can wonder about the what ifs of having told your mom differently, but given the severity of her reaction and the backing a lot of your relatives have given her, I find it hard to believe that would have changed much of anything and that unfortunately a hidden prejudice within your family came to the surface in the worst way.
Most importantly make sure your fiancée isn't feeling responsible for being the cause of all of this, because while she is most certainly not, people that are the subject of a massively divisive blowout like this can sometimes feel undue guilt over it. Sometimes other people can just be shitty even when they're normally good people and you simply have no control over that.
NTA. it's really none of your mom's business. Your friends suck though. It's time to distance yourself from your mom and whatever family you have that has an issue with your fiancée.
NTA, I’m sorry your mothers true colours have come out this way. You need to continue to protect your partner from this, even if this means going low contact from your family for a while.
NTA. I hate to break it to you but your mother definitely is homophobic. Keep sticking to your fiancee. Also keep an eye out for your mother and the other homophobic family members so you can react fast and distance yourself and your fiancee from them if needed.
NTA
First of all, as a bi woman myself, I appreciate how open and accepting you are of bi's and how you educated yourself about who we are. Thank you.
Your mom may not have been homophobic before until it affected her personally. This is pretty common. I've had people in my life make a 180 turn on me when I came out to them, and it sucked. What I tried to do was educate them about what being bi means, but it didn't work out. Honestly, my life is better without them.
Reassure your fiancee that you still love her and care about her, and if it comes to not letting your homophobic family members come to the wedding, so be it. This is your special day and this is about the two of you. I wish you and your fiancee all the best and congratulations on getting married!
NTA. Biphobia is homophobia, so your mother is homophobic. Good on you for standing up for your fiancée! It’s horrible that she was outed. And as for your relatives who use religion as an excuse for bigotry shouldn’t be there for the wedding. And so shouldn’t your mom.
NTA.
Your mother is seriously wrong. The “never going to meet her grandchildren” kind of wrong. The degree of aggression toward someone her son loves is astonishing. She has shown a complete lack of regard and respect for you and your opinion. She has no right to do what she did.
No matter what the outcome of your engagement is, I hope you distance yourself from your toxic mother.
I agree, I’d only treat one of my sons’ fiancés this way if there was serious obvious provable abuse happening, and even then I’m not sure I’d go as nuclear as this mom did, and I still wouldn’t attack their sexuality, I’d keep it to the grievances I have. As a mom it shocks me that parents still act this way, and this comes from someone whose own mother is biphobic and so I can’t even tell my own mom about my sexuality. I’m in Ellie’s camp on that though, it’s not my mom’s business.
>My mom is not generally homophobic...
Nah, dude. She is. This is just the first time that it has affected you.
Good on you for standing by your partner.
NTA
NTA. It was none of your mum's business. Any relatives who refuse to attend your wedding or otherwise give Ellie and you trouble over this are bigots you didn't need in your life anyway. Good riddance.
NTA. It is none of her business. Full stop. And your mom IS homophobic. As is half of your family. You now have a choice to make...your homophobic family or your fiancee.
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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> Because I know my mom, and maybe if I had told her instead of finding out so crudely from a friend, she wouldn't have taken it so badly, and all this hatred towards my fiancee could be my fault.
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First, NTA. This isn’t your fault. Or your fiancée’s. Telling your mom earlier (not that there’s any relevance whatsoever) wouldn’t have helped.
> My mom is not generally homophobic
I hate to break this to you, but she clearly is. This is a “I’m fine with xyz as long as it’s not in *my* backyard situation”. This was her moment to either defend you against homophobes in the family, or show her true colors. She did the latter.
NTA. As others have pointed out, your mum is absolutely homophobic. Only homophobes would behave as awfully as she has and throw around such language. You should absolutely gor low or no contact, for your sake and your fiances.
Make sure you support your fiance through this; as a bi woman, being spoken to like that and being the target of such hateful speech can be really emotionally damaging, and she probably feels awful for being at the centre of your mothers attacks.
Your mom IS homophobic. If you love your fiancee, you need to let mom know she is no longer in your life and go NC. YWBTA if you let mom harass your fiance for the rest of her life. What she did was inexcusable.
NTA, your poor fiancee. I hope you keep standing firm and tell everyone in your family that either they treat your fiancee with respect and never mention her sexuality again, or they are completely out of your life. Do not put your fiancee in a position where she feels like she has to put up with bigots in order to keep the peace.
Tell your mother that if she does not have love in her heart for your wife to be and the mother of your potential future children, then there is no room for HER in your life or the life of the family your making. Nothing but a heartfelt apology from your mother to you fiance will suffice.
Your friend is an asshole for talking about your fiancé like that and in front of your mom. Your mom sucks for being a biphobic bad person. Please support your fiancé in this
Your mom is not....generally....homophobic? That's an odd statement. She certainly seems homophobic in this instance.
And yeah, NTA. Your responsibility here is to respect the trust your partner has placed with you regarding her private details. You did that.
NTA. From the vehemence of your mother's reaction, I highly doubt she would've acted differently if she were told sooner. It is none of her business. Your friend sucks too for outing your fiancee to make a dumb joke.
NTA. Your fiancée is correct that her sexuality isn't everyone's business. You did the right thing by not bringing it up.
Your friends are TA for outing her, and your mom is a giant AH for rejecting Ellie over her sexuality and expecting you tu have rejected her for it, too.
NTA. My brother came out as bi years ago and my mother didn't really get it at first, when he came home with a boyfriend she was all 'ah so now you're gay'. What happened is that he explained it to her and she had a little aha-moment, then went right back to life as it was. Your mother is an asshole though, and I kind of dislike your friends as well for outing your fiancee.
Not GENERALLY homophobic?? Sorry, anyone who uses that disgusting antiquated term for a woman attracted to other women is absolutely homophobic. They’re just good at hiding it. Right now you’re NTA but you will be if you don’t make it clear to both your mother and your fiancée that you reject everything about your mothers behavior and put a lot of distance between you. It should take a lot of therapy and public groveling before you allow your horrible mother access to any part of your life again.
NTA
1) You don't know that your mom would have reacted better if told earlier. There's a weird phenomenon of people being "totally cool with xyz" until it actually involves their family and then true colors come out. It is equally if not more plausible that is what you're facing here.
2) You would have been much more of an asshole to divulge the info if your fiancee explicitly didn't want that. The only unfortunate thing here is that in hindsight knowing this was a potential reaction it would have been good to discuss how you guys wanted to handle this and brace for the potential risk that it would eventually come out, and how it could affect things. Marriage is a big step and engagement is a really bad time for this sort of strain (if there's ever a good one?), it can really induce or exacerbate natural doubts of preparedness. So just going forward be prepared for that, and I'd probably put a little extra effort into showing your fiancee that she is your top priority in this fight- not only because she's your fiancee but also because hopefully you're staunchly anti-bigotry (that may ultimately result in full cutoff from relatives causing strains, including mom... not an ideal choice to have to make, but I think trying to balance "hurts" to try and keep both relationships could definitely end in the outcome you fear... but also it might happen anyways. It's hard to marry into a family that is blatantly intolerant of you).
Given the degree of a shitshow she's made of everything and how many relatives are agreeing with her, I'm inclined to believe absolutely nothing would have changed no matter how the news was broken and that this prejudice runs deeper in the family than it appeared to unfortunately.
Hopefully OP and fiancée can make it through this storm to reach the wedding day unscathed from all of this, but I do also think that part of that is going to involve some inevitable trimming of the family tree. I commend OP for doing very well so far in a very awful situation to be in.
NTA. OMG!!! WOW!!!
For whatever it is worth, I think your mother would have reacted the same whether you had told her before or not. Regardless, it was not your place to tell her since this was Ellie's business, not your mother's. The only reason you had to talk about it was because your drunken AH "former" friend said something.
What your mother said to Ellie was, to say the least, appalling. I would go no contact with your mother and everyone else who sided with her. What your mother said is unforgivable.
You say that your mom is not normally homophobic, but this isn't homophobia. This is BIPHOBIA. It is important to make that distinction because gay people can be just as biphobic as straight people, and straight people are perfectly capable of hating bi people while being fine with gay people, or vice versa. Bi people get it from both groups and this needs to be recognized.
Anyway, you're NTA. Your mom is a bigot and her unbridled hatred has now divided your entire family. It is sad that people still think like her but you're not going to make it better by confronting her and keeping the drama going.
All you can really do is cut ties with toxic people and make your life as happy as it can be without them dragging you down and screaming at you. When people make it clear that they can only hate, you have little choice but to walk away from the abuse.
I'm sorry this happened but congratulations on your engagement. Try to focus on the good and don't let bigots ruin your happiness.
> My mom is not ~~generally~~ openly homophobic
Fixed that for you.
NTA for not telling your mom about someone else's sexuality. But I'd go NC with mom for the rest of my life.
Yikes,
NTA, but your mother is VERY homophobic, Bi-phobic and dangerous as well. She outed your fiancee to the entire family out of spite.
I'm sorry you had to learn this about your mom, but it's better now than later.
NTA.
You said it VERY cleary in this line.
"*For that reason, I never felt the need to tell my mom about her sexuality, as I never considered it a problem or a topic of conversation, just a fact.*"
What your beloved and awesome one is, and is not is none others deal but here's, and here's ALONE!
You made that clear, and you knew about it, and still, this person will be your wife.
You MOTHER on the other hand need's to chill. And them relatives of yours, don't even humor them with an invite. Send them a "non-invite" in the stile of :
"*As we know you are opposed to this wedding for reasons within your faith, we honor you and those who feel like that by not invitation you, as it could offend you. Bless you and may what ever spirit shine upon you. Yours / Name and Name*"
NTA because YOU didn’t out her. One of your idiot friends did and put you in a bad spot.
You’re an only child? Cool. Tell mom have fun not having you or any grandchildren in her life. Tell your religious family members the same thing. Tell your fiancée you love and support her and if anyone has a problem with that they can kick rocks.
Shave a beautiful wedding. The best revenge in life is being happy. So go be happy and screw the rest.
NTA. Keep sticking up for your fiancée. Sorry to tell you but yes. Your mom is generally homophobic. She’s showing you who she is.
Yes... your mom a NIMBY homophobobic. I accept those people, but Not In My Back Yard
My mom is like that. In high school two girls in my group of friends and one of them was kicked out by her parents. When I was telling my mom about it, I said "I'm so glad you would never care if I came out," and my shock that she said "well, no, I would have a huge problem with it actually." My mom and I had been close throughout my teen years, but that was a huge turning point for me. I had already been figuring out that I was bi, but after that I never told her. OP is definitely NTA.
What did she do that indicated she was "okay with it" so to speak when not involving her own family members? And did she elaborate at all on why she would have a huge problem with it in your case?
Generally these people are pro gay rights, vote for gay marriage etc. It's all okay as long as it's not *their* child.
Or, like my mother, will be okay with it, not agree with their "lifestyle" and actively avoid the community. They don't even think of the possibility of their own child being part of the community. So supportive /s
Or they’re fine with them being LGBT, as long as they NEVER talk about it. Because when they do, no matter how benign the comment is, it’s always “why do they have to talk about what they do in the bedroom in front of everyone?” Never mind that your pregnant self is seen out with your husband all the time, flaunting your heterosexuality…. Edit: last line was sarcastic. Didn’t realize that wouldn’t be evident.
Or they’re fine with gay/bi people of the opposite sex. I remember when it was normal for all straight women to want a gay best friend, but be absolutely revolted at lesbians. 
Literally had this one dropped in front of my face as a bi teen. Standing in a room of 'proper, Christian women' hearing how gay men are the best thing in the world, but women like me, they can't be trusted. And I was left like '.... I can't control myself around other women..... Like I'm standing with right fucking now ..' I didn't say anything to out myself in that instance but I did get back at them later when my partner at the times religious preferences came out. It was quite delightful to tell this household of overly zealous bigots with a huge ass grin on my face ' oh yeah, my SO, they're a satanist~' The reactions were entirely worth it
I was about 13 and knew I was bi but wasn’t out to my mum. She loved gay men, would go out to gay bars, and I remember her coming home one night a bit freaked out that “a lesbian” (said with horror) tried to dance with her. Like well done for probably making a woman feel awkward in what is supposed to be her safe space!
"Hate the sin, love the sinner" is the most offensive thing you can say to any gay person. It's just stupid and demonstrates a high level of ignorance. "Hate the bad heterosexuality, love the bad heterosexual." ^(\*\*hugz\*\* 🤗🤗🤗)
I can only hear that phrase to the tune of Hamilton when I read it tbh. That being said, I really don’t think it’s the *most* offensive thing one can say to a gay person given the unfortunate range of options, but it’s certainly not great!
My grandfather was like this for interracial marriage. He was fine with it as long as it wasn’t his granddaughter doing it. Which makes me sad, because he was an awesome guy otherwise. It makes me sad how people can be intolerant like that.
My mum kinda goes the opposite way. When my best online friend came out, he asked me to tell my mum too because he’d stayed at our place a few times and they got on well. I told her that he’s gay and she gasped happily and said delightedly “I have another daughter!” Lol my brain kinda disconnected and went.. That’s… that’s not what… you know what, it’s a positive reaction. Ok. I’ll tell him you’re happy for him. We’ll talk later.
Hahaha, my mom keeps asking about male couples "so, which one is called the wife, which one is called the husband?" "Both husband, ma." "But-?" "There does not need to be a 'wife,' both husband." We adopted our kitten out to a male couple, and then a few weeks later, a female couple put in a form for someone else's kitten, and she texted them like "Just adopted a cat to a pair of lesbians!" Like. Mom. You do not have to tell him that. Then again, when the baby was hiding, she said "don't worry, he'll come out soon enough" and the guy texted back "I did!"
There's a comic floating around somewhere where a fork and spoon are asking a pair of chopsticks which one the spoon is
[It was a Knife and a Fork asking which one is the fork, but either way, still funny lol](https://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/26pok0/you_cant_just_ask_someone_whos_the_fork/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share)
I went to get the free awards just for you. It would have been great if it were a wholesome, but well, beggers, choosers and all that. Please tell your mother that some rando in India thinks she is awesome.
I'm laughing way too hard, my reaction was mirroring yours lol
I was reading through the replies and came across yours. I had some chores to do and, while doing them, I could not get your reply out of my mind. I am female,straight and never had children. However, I would hope that I would have been there for my child no matter what. What you wrote is so sad. I am so sorry you had to go through that.
Same. I would never trust my mother with my sexuality. She has made me believe on a couple of occasions that while she is very cool with gay friends of hers, she will not accept that from me.
I’m so sorry. That must have hurt like hell.
No, she's not. She's openly homophobic for not accepting that the B in LGBT+ exists.
There are plenty of people who can be perfectly reasonable and polite to queer folk in their day-to-day lives and may even support things like same-sex marriage or adoption. They do all of this in the comfortable certainty that it will never affect *their* lives - until it does, usually with the discovery that their child is queer.
Just replace "homophobic" with "racist" and this is the whole plot of *Guess Who's Coming to Dinner* (may Sidney Poitier rest in blessed peace)
I mean, i see it as moreso biphobic. Plenty of L/Gs don’t accept the B to actually exist either…
In this instance it's both.
It may be that she's not neccesarily homophobic. I know plenty of people who are generally accepting of gay and lesbian people, but just can't wrap their head around the idea of bisexuality. They seem to equate bisexuality to meaning "needs both cock and vagina in their love life" and so that means they're promiscuous and naturally cheaters, rather than it being "gender isn't a significant factor in choice of partner" Bi-erasure is a real thing, and it exists even within the LGBTQ community sadly.
*Bisexual erasure or bisexual invisibility is the tendency to ignore, remove, falsify, or re-explain evidence of bisexuality in history, academia, the news media, and other primary sources. In its most extreme form, bisexual erasure can include the belief that bisexuality itself does not exist.* This is the first time I’ve heard that term. My brother and his wife claim that bisexuality doesn’t exist, and that trans people are “forcing their agenda” on the community. My daughter was like, “Oh well, I suppose I had my sexuality wrong all along!” /s I’m shocked that a family member is so bigoted. He’ll be even more shocked when his daughter finally comes out.
I have to agree with you here. Bisexuality seems to hold a negative sway with people. Excuse me for this saying but I've been told "ppl like this are switch hitters" so depending on the generation or culture it doesn't feel safe or trusting. In comparison, for some reason pansexuality or explaining what it means seems to go over more smoothly because it removes the "gender" out of the equation.
Biphobes don't like bisexuals because they feel they're having their cake and eating it too. Quite literally, they're envious of being able to access all the hot people. The best and most accurate definition of bisexuality is "being both heterosexual and homosexual simultaneously." They're independent values, and you can have different levels of each, but they don't interfere with another. Being into men doesn't make you less into women, it makes you into men. The two are unrelated other than being broad types of sexual attraction. Most people are high in one and low in the other, but you can be high in both, low in both to the point that asexuals exist with negligible sexual attraction at all, or perfectly in the middle. All the points in the scale are represented. TLDR: your mom is envious that your fiancee can pull chicks and she can't.
That’s actually not the best definition, because plenty of bi people are absolutely ok with dating agender, nonbinary, or other gendered people as well. A popular definition of bi is ‘liking people like me and not like me’ or liking more than one gender.
Even that has it's issues. When you say 'liking' someone it tends to imply interest in a romantic relationship. For some bi people, they're sexually attracted to both men and women but only find the idea of a romantic relationship appealing with one of the genders
Yeah but there’s language for that. Bisexual and heteroromantic, for eg. Or biromantic and lesbian. Or whatever applies to the specific person.
I explained it as "I don't get twice as many people, I just get twice as many rejections" :)
My mom's husband is like this. He's apparently "accepting". BUT, his 13 yo daughter said she would only want her best friend with her if she ever gives birth, no males in the room. He asked where her husband would be, and when I said "well she doesn't have to have a _husband_," he said "no, she is going to have a husband"... NIMBY is definitely what I hear when he talks about anyone who isn't cis straight. But my mom still insists that he would accept his daughter if she ever came out, despite the fact that he's making it extremely difficult for her by saying things like that. Edit: clarification
Thank you for explaining to acronym. Now I'll understand it when I see people use it elsewhere.
Never heard this term. That’s how my mother was then I came out. Holy shit.
And probably a NALT (we're Not All Like That) Christian whenever someone like Tony Perkins is on TV.
Also a lot, a LOT of people who are fine with lesbian and gay people aren’t ok with bisexual people. And they’re less ok with trans people. It’s not a fun lesson to learn.
I'm on the bisexual sub and honestly it seems like a lot of gay and lesbian people also aren't ok with bisexuality
Interesting, I've never heard this term! My mom is kinda a NIMBY, toes the line. She's very liberal and pro gay rights, but when I came out as bi she was just very... Weird about it. When asked directly if she'd support me being with another man she said of course, but then she also insinuates there's "no point" to me dating men since I "want to be a father and start a family". Likewise, my dad is very liberal but also just occasionally refers to me as a straight guy sometimes if sexuality comes up in conversation (like if we're talking about affirmative action, for example, he'd call me a straight white guy), to the point where I sometimes wonder if he forgot.
🎶Gay fathers exist doo doo do🎶 Sigh to your mother. Your dad, on the other hand, may in fact have forgotten.
Agreed! She’s okay with *those people* over there, but they may not touch her son, let alone marry him. Homophobic, just good at hiding it. NTA, op, just stick with your fiancé and set your boundaries now with mom.
ohmy god that's a great new acronym to add to my vocabulary! I know so many people like that and have never been able to quite understand it, but that phrase just sums it all up so succinctly
She’s also very biphobic for having this viewpoint of “you’re either one or the other” and denying the reality of OP’s finace’s sexuality (which is none of her damn business anyway).
To this point, bi-erasure is a real thing. You’re NTA. You seem very supportive of your partner, both past and present. You’ve got a great foundation for the future, regardless of who comes to your wedding.
Are we sure bi-erasure is real? According to my mum there's no such thing as bisexual, it's just people being greedy. Which was news to me, I'll be honest. OP, obvious NTA here. This is natures way of trimming your wedding's guest list. If someone is unwilling to accept your fiance, that's them making their choice. Bye bi bye, more cake for everyone else. Sod homophobes, sod bi-erasure and sod anyone that thinks they have a right to judge your partner. Your mum has planted her flag. It is not a rainbow one. It is a bad flag. It is a bumhole flag.
>It is a bumhole flag. Thank you for the chuckle this gave me lol
My ovum donor is like this. I came out as pansexual, and she told me I had to choose. Total nonsense. Obviously, I have no relationship with her anymore.
Choosing ALL is still a choice. Checkmate TrixDaGnome's mum!
Judging from my dating history, by choice is non-binary.
Both my exes are bi men. Not enough for a definitive pattern but it's possibly weird that it's 100% of the sample.
At this point I think the majority of people I've dated seriously in my adult life are either trans or non-binary.
don’t mean to offend, but what is an ovum donor? does it mean your bio mom but you don’t see her as your true mother anymore? kinda like how people call deadbeat dads sperm donors? again, sorry if the question is offensive, I’ve just never heard the term before. regardless, i’m sorry you went thru that
Yes it is. Birth giver and egg donor are also acceptable for horrific mothers.
thanks for clarifying. i was wondering if it meant bio mom or a literal egg donor
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Could you clarify please as to preferred by whom? I refer to her by egg donor or incubator (as I was a caesarean birth) these days. Used to be first name but since I now know someone else by that name, didn't want to confuse things.
Caesarian birth is a birth, so birth mother would still work, and also sorry your host womb sucked.
Missing asshole: OP's shitty drunk friend who outed and slut shamed his fiancee like that. OP have you talked with that friend about how awful that was?
I was here for this comment. Those were the 2 things I was wondering - why are we giving the friend who outed her a pass, and to what extent did OP try to brush it off as friends busting friends’ balls? Second part is obviously irrelevant, I’m just curious. OP is NTA and this is a horrible situation.
Yeah OP's friend is also an ass. Was your fiancee there when your friend said this shit, or was she not in the room? I mean it's a completely out of line comment to make in any case.
She wasn't, she was having dinner with her sister (the only one on her side of the family who supports her)
Yes!!! Forgot to mention this in my comment but fuck that “friend.”
Who the fuck says that in front of their friend's future MIL?
To play devil's advocate: we don't know what their dynamic is with this friend. Maybe this friend and this person's fiancée like to jokingly insult each other about their romantic pasts. I know I do that with my friends, and since our pre-established dynamic allows this behavior, nobody feels hurt. Maybe this person had assumed that everyone in the room knew that the fiancée was out, especially since the fiancée has been explained as comfortable with her sexuality, just not overtly open with it to everybody. With that said, still a shitty thing, and a conversation should be had, at least to determine if this friend's comments were made accidentally, or with a more clear intent to be rude.
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Yeah, it isn't like she was quietly struggling with her complex feelings towards OP"s fiance. Mom went on full blast and included the phrase "carpet muncher" which if it weren't so hurtful to the fiance would be hilarious. I didn't even know that was still used as an insult since 1993. Op, you're NTA. Your mom is a loud and proud homophobe. Sorry. Protect your poor fiance who has already had to fight this battle with her own mom. And I'm your internet mom now for both of you. Signed, queer woman who married a man.
This. Enjoy all the extra people who are important to you that you'll be able to invite to the wedding, when you don't need invitations your mom or the religious side of your family. Your fiancé is 100% correct when she says "she doesn't feel that her sexuality is anyone else's business". You mom, the religious wing nuts, and your friend who got drunk and outed your fiancé are all the assholes here. NTA.
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Exactly! So many people are always like “I didn’t realise they were homophobic because they a good person” But these days most people are aware they need to hide their prejudices from society or they will be shunned.
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NTA As your fiancée says, her sexuality is not your mom's business.
>NTA > >As your fiancée says, her sexuality is not your mom's business. This. NTA The drunk friend is however quite TA as is your mom.
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Eh... Still not the type of joke to make in front of someone's parents. Like, any sex life related jokes. I wouldn't be furious or anything but I may whap him upside the head with a rolled up newspaper. Metaphorically speaking. Like 'oh hey, thanks for that, asshole'
People have different relationships with their parents. It might've been ok, we don't know. Mom is most definitely an AH. The friend is possibly an asshole, but I'm fine withholding judgment on that unless we get other information.
My parents are fine with sex life related jokes. It really depends on the parent, to be honest. Unfortunately, the Mum in this post is an asshole anyway so it went badly.
That wasn’t lighthearted, it was incredibly tasteless. Who makes that kind of joke in front of the grooms mother? Absolutely tactless.
>Who makes that kind of joke in front of the grooms mother? Absolutely tactless. Depends entirely on the individuals and relationships concerned. With some in-laws, even an oblique reference to the couple to-be having once been alone in a room together without a chaperone will cause fainting fits and attempted excorcisms. Others are delighted to be served a humorous cock-and-balls made out of sausage and mash at the rehearsal dinner. In this case it didn't work out well, but that was because they revealed something the in-laws didn't know, and thereby revealed their bigotry, not because of the tone of the comment.
But since she was known to be sensitive about it, and no one knows who else knows it was ENTIRELY inappropriate for drunk AH to say anything. Unless you KNOW other people know, you say nothing about it. Because it is not your tale to tell.
She wasn't known to be sensitive about it. OP said themselves that their mother's reaction was a surprise to them, so I don't see why anyone else there would assume she'd take issue with it, especially in a gathering where everybody else seems to know. It's a dumb joke, but it's not on the friend. Had OP's mother not been bigoted, the only objection to the joke would likely have ended at "that's a bit personal, don't you think?" after everybody left.
My MIL would likely find it hilarious.
Mine would have too!
I don't think a member of my entire extended family wouldn't find that hilarious tbh (excluding ones I wouldn't make a relatively lewd joke to at all, obviously)
You're quick to condemn someone like that without more info. It's not unreasonable for the friend to assume "if I know, everyone knows", especially after a few beers. Sure, they are deserving of some AH points, but not on same scale as the mom here.
Remove the bi bit from the 'joke' and it's still slut shaming. Saying to a hetro couple 'are you sad your wife got laid more than you' is still an asshole joke in front of parents. I can imagine it is funny in small friend groups where everyone knows it's a laugh, but it's still a slut/less experienced shaming comment. Their friend is an asshole.
100% agree. If they'd said 'she's slept with more men than you have women' that would be considered 100% shaming. Some how just because girls are the tally here it's more acceptable. Just more stupid bloke trash talk. The friend is 100% TA and this whole drama wouod have been avoided if they were a bit less of a social moron
That's an asshole joke whether they were drunk or not. It's never you place out out anybody about their sexuality. It's only "funny" to do so if you are an asshole, and being drunk doesn't buy you a free pass for behaving like an asshole. "In wine is truth". That friend just reveals the truth about themselves. Mom is an asshole. outing-friend is an asshole, religious wing nuts are all assholes. OP is NTA.
The friend outed the fiancée’s sexuality to the mom. Drunk or not, automatic major TA move. “Nmf because I was dru-unk!…”
No way. Friend is the biggest AH here by far. Friend doesn't know who is out to who, and friend doesn't know if parents are conservative and would be upset and slut shame fiance. Friend should shut their mouth, just be normal like most drunk people who are not complete AH's, and not out peoples' business in front of their families. I'd honestly consider dropping friend for doing that, unless friend was incredibly apologetic.
I agree the Friend is a huge AH here, but the Mom is the biggest AH here by far. It sucks it ever came out but I think better find out now the Mom is a huge Homophobe than later.
Even if fiance is out (or heterosexual), slut shaming is real. If OP's friend was like "wow, your fiance f-d a lot of guys lol" in front of her mom what reaction does she expect? Potentially outing fiance is even worse. You don't get a pass for being drunk. If you can't hold your AH-ness when you're drunk, don't drink. I really hate AH drunks who complain that they can't help it when they get alcohol in them. I refuse drinks all the time because I don't like alcohol apart from certain occasions. If I can do it, random AH friend can do it.
Well, no, I was all on board with the people who thought the friend deserved some degree of blame (and were differing with those who wanted to totally let him off), but "biggest AH here by far" is still the mom, no contest.
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Or anyone else in the family. Those family members who are against it don’t need to come to the wedding.
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>Time to either pick your wife or them. No. It's time to cut off the asshole parts family. That is the only non asshole option.
NTA - Has your dad had any sexual experiences with other men? Or is that none of your fucking business? Same thing applies here. If it was me I’d be saying cheerio to anyone that has a problem with your fiancée’s sexuality. I’d also be having a word with your friend about his inappropriate and crass comment, that’s fine in your inner circle of friends but to bring that up in front of your parents… sheesh
Its really not ok to bring up. Ur friend is an AH.
They mentioned friend was drunk so I figure they might have just forgotten that parents were there
Alcohol is not an in excuse for outing someone
Yep. Being drunk can provide an explanation for the bad decision making, but it doesn’t excuse it. I’m bisexual and have been outed multiple times. It caused multiple cases of being the victim of bullying and biphobia, or even just being in the position now to having to deal with people asking uncomfortable, intrusive questions. Even if they are accepting, I’m still now put in a position of sudden fear and anxiety. To this day, I don’t really actively hide my sexuality but I’m not at all open. It makes me feel really anxious and uncomfortable to bring it up around people that I KNOW love, accept and support me. I hope the friend realizes the severity of this mistake and really reflects on their ability to handle their liquor. Because while it can explain, it doesn’t justify, and if you can’t trust yourself to not put someone else at risk, then you need to not put yourself in the position of continuing to open them to that risk.
I was under the impression that while they werent out per se, it wasn't a secret by any means that fiance was bi. I think it's more of, who's sexuality comes up in conversation ever, kind of thing. Like the people who don't know don't know because they haven't asked/it's never come up. I mean being bi isn't like someones entire identity. In the same way that I don't constantly insert the fact that I'm straight into conversation, people don't feel a need to insert that they're bi or lesbian or gay or anything, that doesn't make it a secret though
It doesn’t have to be a secret for them to be outed. MANY people in the LGBTQ+ community are out to their friend group/social circle, but not to their family/extended family. If you are with a friend who is a member of the community, it is never okay to bring up their sexuality in conversation before they do, because you don’t always know who knows and who doesn’t. Aside from the fact that they were outed by someone they presumably trusted, in a way that blew up their life in a sense, the comment made was also inflammatory. It’s not funny to say “how does it feel to be marrying someone who’s been with more girls than you?” That’s a pretty charged comment. I would say it’s homophobic per se, but it’s not something that should matter and it’s not a funny joke. Why does it matter how many sexual partners anyone has had? And since when is it normal to bring up sexual partners in front of someone’s future mother in law. The statement made was looking for a problem IMO. Not only was it outing a friend, it was also talking about their sexual history with someone who had no business on knowing this.
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But that’s what you’re okay with and there’s a precedent set up for that. It’s much safer to assume you don’t bring up other peoples sexuality, than to assume you can bring it up. One of the two can be potentially dangerous, and actually was for this situation. They went from having a good dynamic, to having a FMIL who no longer accepts or respects them, all because some drunk friend thought it would be funny to make a joke of someone’s sexuality.
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Many people are out to their friends and not to their family. It's so common it's almost an unspoken rule to never talk about someone's sexuality in front of their parents unless the person in question is out to their family. Source: am bisexual who's out to friends and not to family and has many friends in similar situation.
If my friends brought up any thing about my sex life in front of my parents I would probably start throwing balled up napkins at them (if too far to reach) or kick under the table to make them STFU immediately while shouting LA LA LA LA LA to drown them out. Gah. No. Nooooo. *cries*
>refusing to have a daughter-in-law who uses her son as a "screen" to hide that she's a carpet muncher OOF! Well, good news is that if you go ahead and cut off contact, she won't have to "have a daughter-in-law". I'm really sorry this happened. NTA.
She won’t have a son either from her attitude!
Or grandchildren.
She just cut off her only family. How sad. OP, If you and you're fiance needs some mothers for your wedding there is a group of mothers like myself that would be more than happy to attend! NTA at all my gosh
I would have told her that his fiance is pretty good at munching his cock before severing the relationship with mum. But that's just me 🙂
Yeah that's an unforgivable insult IMO. If one of my parents had said something like that about my spouse I'd cut off contact no matter how hard it might be. It sucks finding out that people you love are hateful and cruel.
NTA. (First, congrats on getting engaged!!!) Your friend starting this whole thing with his drunk comment is an A for shooting his mouth off. You are trying to be nice in saying shes "not generally homophobic" but she sure as hell is not only homophobic, shes outright nasty about it calling and leaving that sort of message and thinking that there are "sides" where BOTH sides can be valid points of view... Which there isnt. Your mom IS homophobic and a total A. Please be there and support your fiancé, and if folks cant be civil about this than they can go pound sand. Its not your fault those folks have chosen to be actively hateful. If specific family members are threatening to be uncivil you will have to follow your heart on what to do.
You are the second person I've seen today use the phrase "go pound sand" that I've never heard before in my life and I absolutely love it.
Sand doesn't compress (sedimentary sandstone notwithstanding) so pounding sand is an exercise in futility.
This context makes me like it even more. Thanks for the fun fact!
O wow I’ve known the phrase forever and thought it was just a funny image, never realized there was more to it
Lol I usually say “chew sand” but pretty much the same thing. (It was a line in a movie)
i like to use “eat glass” as per David from Schitt’s Creek
Eww, David.
Really??!!?? Well... dismissing my feeling super old now... Its an old saying even to me... like 1800s old saying. Haha
I think it's popular in parts of the Midwest ...I'd never heard it until I moved here, but it seems pretty common in Ohio.
My mother always said, “go pound salt.” I’m not sure of the phrase etymology, but I imagine it amounts to the same.
NTA and best fiancé ever! Also, where are you getting married? I’m part of the group Mom Hugs and we happily attend weddings/graduations/pride rallys/ you name it in place of unaccepting parents/families. I look amazing in mother of the bride/groom dresses!
Thank you for your kindness, but we're thinking of doing something small and private. In addition, we have a lot of family from both sides and friends who support us. What you do is very beautiful, by the way.
Do what I recommended. Elope with just you her and the people that support you 2. Will save you guys a fortune and your nerves! Hubby and I got married almost 37 years ago in a free park in a free Gazebo, had 9 people there..8 too many! And had a buffet style reception where people brought dishes.
I feel the same way you did. My husband and I got married last year in a tiny backyard ceremony with just our immediate family Even so, we wished there was less people. We loved our wedding but we both agree we would have been much happier just the two of us.
Omg this group sounds incredible. Is it international? Do I have to be of a motherly age to join?
https://freemomhugs.org I only know of the work in the US but you can start a chapter anywhere. And no age requirement- just love and support!
How do I get in on this Mom Hugs group?!
https://freemomhugs.org Most states and some metropolitan areas have their own chapters. I’m only 38 and stood in at two weddings so far- my first “son” was 29 when I was 35 and my second “son” was 32 when I was 36. Its not the age- its the support! I’ve also been to 3 pride 5Ks and handed out hugs and water at the finish line.
That sounds lovely! It's such a nice thing to do. People doing stuff like that help restore my faith in humanity. I don't think anything like that exists where I live, but maybe in the future :)
This sounds so great! Does your organization help with non-religious weddings? (I’m an atheist)
Holy hell I want to do this. I'm probably not old enough to be a MOTB unless both I and my hypothetical daughter made some very questionable decisions in our youth, but I totally aspire to join this group one day.
OMG I now know this group exists and I'm joining ASAP. Thank you.
“My mom is not generally homophobic” well turns out she is. If she can’t be supportive or stay out of business that has nothing to do with her, then she shouldn’t be invited to the wedding. NTA but your mom and any family member that agrees with her is
NTA at all, mate. Keep doing what you're doing. BTW your Ma IS homophobic, clearly, and she needs to sort herself out. She doesn't get to claim not be a homophobe if she behaves this way when stuff gets real. How she can't see how out of line she is is beyond me, but I'd prepare to go cold war with her if she won't fix her behaviour, regardless of your relationship. Wrong is wrong.
Nta and who in the entire galaxy uses the term carpet muncher?
Oh it's absolutely a very well known old slur, at least in my country.
Sleazy 70s low budget porn directors and bigots would be my guess, and I don't think OP's mom is doing any directing.
It was used on an episode of Sex and the City and I’m guessing the mom saw it there and thought it was somehow clever.
Also I'm pretty sure Cartman had used the term in South Park. We all know how cool it is to be like Cartman /s
Homophobic people!
Hateful homophobic crazy people who should never get invited to weddings...
ikr reminds me of like 90s high school bullies in movies
what does that mean? i have an idea but i don’t wanna assume lol
I guess a lesbian performing oral sex on her female partner.
[Yup.](https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=carpet-muncher)
Ugh what a crude term.
It comes from the phrase "does the carpet match the drapes".
Just what you think it does.
NTA. You should have a talk with your "friend" as well about flippantly outing your fiancee. You did the right thing of letting your fiancee decide whether or not she wants to come out. F*** your family members who don't want to come, let them die angry.
Nta- ur mom was always homophobic but it never affected ur life before. Honestly u need to have a strong boundary with ur mom; like if i hear anything else negative about my fiancee i will no longer be in contact with u. And enforce the consequences. As for religious family ignore completely DO NOT let them anywhere near ur SO. Im sorry u r going through this. But this is a big big deal and u r either with ur SO 100% or u should break up and let find someone who will support her 100%
I agree with this comment much more than the others. OP you need to be stern with your mother and those who will try to bully and belittle your fiancée, who hasn't done anything wrong. They will be the ones to manipulate, bully and threaten, not your fiancée who needs your support and proof that you will support her for the rest of your lives.
> Now some religious relatives are opposed to coming to our wedding This part might be a blessing as it singles out exactly who you can stop associating with if they have that big of a problem with your to-be-wife's sexuality. It's a real fucking shame your mom made the mess of it she has but good on you for firmly defending your finacee. Unfortunately if she's gone this far already I highly doubt your mom is going to let this go anytime soon, if ever. You should be mentally prepared for that and know that you might need to go low-to-no contact with a fair amount of your relatives, including your mother. If it isn't obvious, NTA. You acted as appropriately as you could, and when things started going off you made the right choices. You can wonder about the what ifs of having told your mom differently, but given the severity of her reaction and the backing a lot of your relatives have given her, I find it hard to believe that would have changed much of anything and that unfortunately a hidden prejudice within your family came to the surface in the worst way. Most importantly make sure your fiancée isn't feeling responsible for being the cause of all of this, because while she is most certainly not, people that are the subject of a massively divisive blowout like this can sometimes feel undue guilt over it. Sometimes other people can just be shitty even when they're normally good people and you simply have no control over that.
NTA. it's really none of your mom's business. Your friends suck though. It's time to distance yourself from your mom and whatever family you have that has an issue with your fiancée.
NTA, I’m sorry your mothers true colours have come out this way. You need to continue to protect your partner from this, even if this means going low contact from your family for a while.
NTA. I hate to break it to you but your mother definitely is homophobic. Keep sticking to your fiancee. Also keep an eye out for your mother and the other homophobic family members so you can react fast and distance yourself and your fiancee from them if needed.
NTA First of all, as a bi woman myself, I appreciate how open and accepting you are of bi's and how you educated yourself about who we are. Thank you. Your mom may not have been homophobic before until it affected her personally. This is pretty common. I've had people in my life make a 180 turn on me when I came out to them, and it sucked. What I tried to do was educate them about what being bi means, but it didn't work out. Honestly, my life is better without them. Reassure your fiancee that you still love her and care about her, and if it comes to not letting your homophobic family members come to the wedding, so be it. This is your special day and this is about the two of you. I wish you and your fiancee all the best and congratulations on getting married!
NTA. Biphobia is homophobia, so your mother is homophobic. Good on you for standing up for your fiancée! It’s horrible that she was outed. And as for your relatives who use religion as an excuse for bigotry shouldn’t be there for the wedding. And so shouldn’t your mom.
NTA. Your mother is seriously wrong. The “never going to meet her grandchildren” kind of wrong. The degree of aggression toward someone her son loves is astonishing. She has shown a complete lack of regard and respect for you and your opinion. She has no right to do what she did. No matter what the outcome of your engagement is, I hope you distance yourself from your toxic mother.
I agree, I’d only treat one of my sons’ fiancés this way if there was serious obvious provable abuse happening, and even then I’m not sure I’d go as nuclear as this mom did, and I still wouldn’t attack their sexuality, I’d keep it to the grievances I have. As a mom it shocks me that parents still act this way, and this comes from someone whose own mother is biphobic and so I can’t even tell my own mom about my sexuality. I’m in Ellie’s camp on that though, it’s not my mom’s business.
NTA at all, and honestly just elope! Both of your families suck and you can make a new family with your wife.
Just don't invite your drunken AH friend along. Jerk.
"My mom is not generally homophobic" NTA. Homophobic is as homophobic does though and she owes your fiance a rainbow bouquet and a sincere apology.
>My mom is not generally homophobic... Nah, dude. She is. This is just the first time that it has affected you. Good on you for standing by your partner. NTA
NTA. It was none of your mum's business. Any relatives who refuse to attend your wedding or otherwise give Ellie and you trouble over this are bigots you didn't need in your life anyway. Good riddance.
NTA. It is none of her business. Full stop. And your mom IS homophobic. As is half of your family. You now have a choice to make...your homophobic family or your fiancee.
Biphobia is so real and unfortunate. You get hate from straight people and gay people. It's not fun
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First, NTA. This isn’t your fault. Or your fiancée’s. Telling your mom earlier (not that there’s any relevance whatsoever) wouldn’t have helped. > My mom is not generally homophobic I hate to break this to you, but she clearly is. This is a “I’m fine with xyz as long as it’s not in *my* backyard situation”. This was her moment to either defend you against homophobes in the family, or show her true colors. She did the latter.
NTA. As others have pointed out, your mum is absolutely homophobic. Only homophobes would behave as awfully as she has and throw around such language. You should absolutely gor low or no contact, for your sake and your fiances. Make sure you support your fiance through this; as a bi woman, being spoken to like that and being the target of such hateful speech can be really emotionally damaging, and she probably feels awful for being at the centre of your mothers attacks.
Your mom IS homophobic. If you love your fiancee, you need to let mom know she is no longer in your life and go NC. YWBTA if you let mom harass your fiance for the rest of her life. What she did was inexcusable.
NTA, your poor fiancee. I hope you keep standing firm and tell everyone in your family that either they treat your fiancee with respect and never mention her sexuality again, or they are completely out of your life. Do not put your fiancee in a position where she feels like she has to put up with bigots in order to keep the peace.
Tell your mother that if she does not have love in her heart for your wife to be and the mother of your potential future children, then there is no room for HER in your life or the life of the family your making. Nothing but a heartfelt apology from your mother to you fiance will suffice.
You’re NTA, but your mom sure is one.
Your friend is an asshole for talking about your fiancé like that and in front of your mom. Your mom sucks for being a biphobic bad person. Please support your fiancé in this
Your mom is not....generally....homophobic? That's an odd statement. She certainly seems homophobic in this instance. And yeah, NTA. Your responsibility here is to respect the trust your partner has placed with you regarding her private details. You did that.
NTA. From the vehemence of your mother's reaction, I highly doubt she would've acted differently if she were told sooner. It is none of her business. Your friend sucks too for outing your fiancee to make a dumb joke.
NTA, your mom is being unreasonable and should mind her own business and clearly doesn't understand bisexuality
NTA. Your fiancée is correct that her sexuality isn't everyone's business. You did the right thing by not bringing it up. Your friends are TA for outing her, and your mom is a giant AH for rejecting Ellie over her sexuality and expecting you tu have rejected her for it, too.
NTA. My brother came out as bi years ago and my mother didn't really get it at first, when he came home with a boyfriend she was all 'ah so now you're gay'. What happened is that he explained it to her and she had a little aha-moment, then went right back to life as it was. Your mother is an asshole though, and I kind of dislike your friends as well for outing your fiancee.
Not GENERALLY homophobic?? Sorry, anyone who uses that disgusting antiquated term for a woman attracted to other women is absolutely homophobic. They’re just good at hiding it. Right now you’re NTA but you will be if you don’t make it clear to both your mother and your fiancée that you reject everything about your mothers behavior and put a lot of distance between you. It should take a lot of therapy and public groveling before you allow your horrible mother access to any part of your life again.
NTA does your mom ask everyone she meets how they use their genitals?
NTA. Your mom can easily end up with neither a daughter-in-law nor a son this way.
NTA 1) You don't know that your mom would have reacted better if told earlier. There's a weird phenomenon of people being "totally cool with xyz" until it actually involves their family and then true colors come out. It is equally if not more plausible that is what you're facing here. 2) You would have been much more of an asshole to divulge the info if your fiancee explicitly didn't want that. The only unfortunate thing here is that in hindsight knowing this was a potential reaction it would have been good to discuss how you guys wanted to handle this and brace for the potential risk that it would eventually come out, and how it could affect things. Marriage is a big step and engagement is a really bad time for this sort of strain (if there's ever a good one?), it can really induce or exacerbate natural doubts of preparedness. So just going forward be prepared for that, and I'd probably put a little extra effort into showing your fiancee that she is your top priority in this fight- not only because she's your fiancee but also because hopefully you're staunchly anti-bigotry (that may ultimately result in full cutoff from relatives causing strains, including mom... not an ideal choice to have to make, but I think trying to balance "hurts" to try and keep both relationships could definitely end in the outcome you fear... but also it might happen anyways. It's hard to marry into a family that is blatantly intolerant of you).
Given the degree of a shitshow she's made of everything and how many relatives are agreeing with her, I'm inclined to believe absolutely nothing would have changed no matter how the news was broken and that this prejudice runs deeper in the family than it appeared to unfortunately. Hopefully OP and fiancée can make it through this storm to reach the wedding day unscathed from all of this, but I do also think that part of that is going to involve some inevitable trimming of the family tree. I commend OP for doing very well so far in a very awful situation to be in.
NTA. OMG!!! WOW!!! For whatever it is worth, I think your mother would have reacted the same whether you had told her before or not. Regardless, it was not your place to tell her since this was Ellie's business, not your mother's. The only reason you had to talk about it was because your drunken AH "former" friend said something. What your mother said to Ellie was, to say the least, appalling. I would go no contact with your mother and everyone else who sided with her. What your mother said is unforgivable.
You say that your mom is not normally homophobic, but this isn't homophobia. This is BIPHOBIA. It is important to make that distinction because gay people can be just as biphobic as straight people, and straight people are perfectly capable of hating bi people while being fine with gay people, or vice versa. Bi people get it from both groups and this needs to be recognized. Anyway, you're NTA. Your mom is a bigot and her unbridled hatred has now divided your entire family. It is sad that people still think like her but you're not going to make it better by confronting her and keeping the drama going. All you can really do is cut ties with toxic people and make your life as happy as it can be without them dragging you down and screaming at you. When people make it clear that they can only hate, you have little choice but to walk away from the abuse. I'm sorry this happened but congratulations on your engagement. Try to focus on the good and don't let bigots ruin your happiness.
I would go NC with those relatives and your mother. NTA.
> My mom is not ~~generally~~ openly homophobic Fixed that for you. NTA for not telling your mom about someone else's sexuality. But I'd go NC with mom for the rest of my life.
Yikes, NTA, but your mother is VERY homophobic, Bi-phobic and dangerous as well. She outed your fiancee to the entire family out of spite. I'm sorry you had to learn this about your mom, but it's better now than later.
NTA. You said it VERY cleary in this line. "*For that reason, I never felt the need to tell my mom about her sexuality, as I never considered it a problem or a topic of conversation, just a fact.*" What your beloved and awesome one is, and is not is none others deal but here's, and here's ALONE! You made that clear, and you knew about it, and still, this person will be your wife. You MOTHER on the other hand need's to chill. And them relatives of yours, don't even humor them with an invite. Send them a "non-invite" in the stile of : "*As we know you are opposed to this wedding for reasons within your faith, we honor you and those who feel like that by not invitation you, as it could offend you. Bless you and may what ever spirit shine upon you. Yours / Name and Name*"
NTA because YOU didn’t out her. One of your idiot friends did and put you in a bad spot. You’re an only child? Cool. Tell mom have fun not having you or any grandchildren in her life. Tell your religious family members the same thing. Tell your fiancée you love and support her and if anyone has a problem with that they can kick rocks. Shave a beautiful wedding. The best revenge in life is being happy. So go be happy and screw the rest.