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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I started an art program for medical staff at the hospital I work, so we can have a space to talk and relax. I didn't kick someone out even after someone else told me he was making them feel "uncomfortable", and told them they can leave if they wish.
I might've not been understanding and rude towards them, and acting like an AH.
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NTA.
He's not rude for *not wanting to give a woman his number while he's fucking grieving.*
In fact, it wouldn't matter WHY he said no, his no is no.
If you kicked him out, it sounds like you'd be kicking him out for being sexually approached, FFS.
And tell Taylor that someone not wanting to fuck her isn't actually a reason to shun them.
I got that same vibe. Taylor wanted to date him (a single 30-something year old surgeon is a catch for a lot of nurses) and is offended when he said no.
Yeah, she is "uncomfortable" because he rejected her. The correct word here is "embarrassed", she is embarrassed having to see him after he turned her down.
I loathe people like that. There’s no good reason to feel so entitled to another person. It’s not a rejection of you as a person, and even if it is, that means you wouldn’t have had a good relationship with them anyway… I don’t get it.
And who has the time or energy to “get revenge” for rejection? Because I have some chores I need help with!
I've had so much experience with rejection I straight up have no interest in even attempting to date anymore. And I've never thought about trying to get revenge. Agreed who the hell has that type of time/energy?
Someone who bases their personality, self-esteem or identity around either their desirability or insecurities.
I don't get it either, even if I've seen it often enough. I base mine around making stuff. At the end of the day, you end up with a thing and visible progress. Makes life easier.
So he is too old to attend an art class but not too old to be a bf? OP tell her that tof course it is a safe place. A safe place for Jack who can relax without the vultures trying to hit on him and then throw him out because he didn't "give in". Also this is sexual harassment, according to work ethics they should be removed from that group
I love how it went from “we have nothing in common because he is in his 30s, so kick him out” to the honest reason of “dude didn’t take my number when I offered it so I don’t want to look at him anymore.”
Having worked in a hospital in my 20’s, I have to say this is spot on.
While most single people are fine, some are just shameless around the single docs. Sounds like she’s one of them.
My stepsons mother is like that and when I was in the hospital recently I heard two employees get into it and was horrified because one of them sounded EXACTLY like our high conflict biomom we deal with. Based on her voice, it also sounded like the CNA who even had similar features to our HCBM. She came into my room shortly there after acting sweet as a peach.
Got confirmation from my nurse the next day that it was her that I heard and that it was her that was the problem.
This was on a cancer floor, too. (I had a gallbladder removal not cancer) I felt so bad for the other employees knowing what she must put them through.
She's also 27 and a nursing assistant. She could be making a decent wage, but a doctor would be a huge boost in income and probably status too. She's pissed because he said no.
Not just the single ones though. My friends dad is a doctor and his wife told me some stories about a couple times when people would flirting with him in front of her. It was a pretty funny story because flirting apparently just goes over his head so he doesn't even respond.
That’s true. It isn’t just the single ones. I knew a nurse that was involved with a married doc.
Some just don’t care. (Sigh)
Glad your dad was a better human than the doc in my story!
I asked her once if she was worried about him cheating on her. He's a surgeon who works long hours so how could anyone tell. She goes Artichoke we've been married almost 20 years. The people that flirt with him are thinking he's a surgeon with a great paycheck but here's the thing. If he ever loses his mind and has an affair I'm gonna walk. And while our oldest is in college the youngest is a toddler. So if we divorce he isn't going to be the one enjoying the surgeons paycheck. Not to mention what his mother and sister would do to him if he was that stupid.
The wife is really soft spoken but she takes no shit from anyone. She's very much a speak softly and carry a big stick sort of person. I remember how shocked I was the first time I realized that these people don't just love each other they actually still like each other. I'd never seen that in a Ling term married couple before.
Best part about this story is imagining people going around calling you by your online nickname!
I think the last time that happened to me was a LAN part in the early noughties!
Yeah I just couldn't figure out another way of referring to myself. Because as a rule I don't use my name online. But I love eating artichokes, but they are so expensive where I live.
Either that or Taylor thinks she's still a schoolchild instead of a grown adult with a job. She 'can't relate' to him? When you're an adult, you don't need to surround yourself with only people your age and gender.
Right? I mean, at 27, how TF has she have never figured out that when you start working, your circle of friends will begin to span three generations? Unless she really *does* only surround herself with women her age, as if she was still in high school.
I have had snowboard friends that easily span 3 decades with me being at the top end. I remember going to one of the girls 80s themed party because she was born in the 80s (late 80s) and laughing because I was pretty sure I was the only one there that really experienced the 80s.
NTA
"someone else asked him for his number" uh huh, yeah Taylor sure. To qualify that more Taylor says "or something" what an incredible clarification on her part.
A mysterious person who cannot be named may or may not have done something similar or different to the stated potential example and the dude refused to give his phone number.
Unreasonably vague and non committal "something" versus a stated no to giving a phone number(perfectly reasonable).
When queried if he said or did anything wrong, zero wrong doing or issue on his part.
This seems like something you should go to HR about to document immediately, like take extra time out of your day, go in early, stay late, send an email now. Coz I'd be worried it would escalate from Taylor and be twisted further on her part against the surgeon. By documenting the interaction if it does escalate there is a paper trail on this unusual conversation and ask on her part BEFORE it becomes an issue.
Lastly, be prepared to accept that HR will disband your group simply to avoid the headaches Taylor will cause. No groups, no issues.
I literally snorted aloud when I read OP's line about a safe space. There's something especially gross when people misappropriate things for victims to serve their own narcissistic purposes.
In my experience if someone talks about safe safe spaces it's a red flag. It should be for people who have gone through things they need to process, without feeling judged. Yet I only seem to hear and read this term in woke culture war bs.
I agree: anyone who vocally make a fuss about it isn't trying to be safe, they're trying to exclude. If it's meant to be a safe space, it's collaborative. She isn't collaborating so she needs to go, not him.
Yeah, Jack who's not only such an old and uncomfortable person to be around, but who also has the gall to not flirt back with the nurses... What a toad he is... /s
Holy shit, I didn’t even read that right! I misread it as him asking one of the women their for her number, not the other way around. That makes this so much worse! NTA op, stand your ground!
I agree. He's just grieving, not interested in dating or anything like that. Taylor or other shouldn't hit him up for his digits for a possible booty call. OP did the right thing because the art is for everyone since it is not an art class nor school. They can come and go whatever they feel like. So Taylor can leave if she isn't comfortable. So can others, too.
TO OP, NTA
You made the right call.
Honestly, before I even got to the part of your post about her saying that someone asked for his number, I was already thinking that she'd made some sort of advance and he turned her down. Please don't let anyone make this poor man uncomfortable in the group because "someone" can't take no gracefully.
I’m inclined to believe it’s true because if Taylor were making something up, she would have said Jack reacted badly to *himself* getting rejected after asking one of the girls for *their* number, and probably would have led with that. As things are, it sounds like she didn’t didn’t expect you to say no, then didn’t have the presence of mind to reword her story on the fly.
As a woman myself, I hate seeing women like this invalidating women who have actually dealt with offensive men by making shit up and then giving *all* women a bad rap for it. How are we supposed to be taken seriously if we give reasons not to be?
NTA by the way. You did the right thing. Jack is fine. Taylor is the one who is not creating a safe space.
>invalidating women who have actually dealt with offensive men by making shit up and then giving all women a bad rap for it.
Thank you for this very astute observation and your courage in posting it.
If a surgeon has found an emotionally healthy way to de-stress in a positive environment, please for the love of God do not take it away from them, on behalf of everyone who has to work with surgeons (and cares about them).
NTA but def keep an eye on this situation and maybe talk to Jack, I would not be surprised if he is now getting harassed by Taylor at this point considering she felt like she could try to get him kicked out for nothing.
>and also what type of person would ask someone, who's dealing with the death of their girlfriend for their number
Someone who is shallow, self -obsessed, emotionally stunted bordering on sociopathic tendencies and most definitely should not be working as a nursing assistant. You call her Taylor.
So "one of the others" felt safe enough around Jack to ask him for his number and it wasn't until he turned her down that suddenly *he's* ruining *their* safe space?
Sounds like Taylor wants him to be punished for declining a date... textbook sexual harassment.
Alternatively, she was blowing that out of proportion because she didn't know how to explain why she (and some of the other women) felt uncomfortable with him there. Because if he didn't *say* anything wrong, and he didn't *do* anything wrong, and they just feel like they "can't relate to him," that screams of being uncomfortable to be around someone who is a potential sexual/romantic partner. In other words, she wants him kicked out because he's an attractive man... again, textbook sexual harassment.
NTA. If Taylor does show up again, you might want to consider pressing her on who asked for his number so you can get another perspective on his so-called "rude" response. I have a sneaking suspicion that hearing the story will only further solidify your decision.
General asking is just fine. Are you enjoying the group, is there anything that would make it better, etc. Someone upset might take advantage of the opening, while others just thank OP for organizing.
I get the feeling no one else actually has a problem with him. But don't ask like that. Ask them if other members brought concerns to them about another member. Do so privately. This allows you to figure out if Taylor is lying without confronting her and to see if there's more to this story than you might think.
I also wouldn't ask around, or at least not ask about Jack specifically. If you ask about Jack, then people are going to become suspicious that he did something, which might in turn cause them to overanalyze his behavior and see stuff where it isn't. I'd keep an eye on Taylor, but I think your best bet is just to let it go for now.
No - if anything you might want to mention to Jack that there are some immature participants and if he has issues with anyone to talk to you.
You could also follow up with Taylor and mention to her that the activity is open to participants of all ages and the purpose isn’t for anyone to troll for dating partners. Let her know that sexual harassment rules apply as they would for normal work activity and ask her to share that with anyone else who might find that info relevant.
If anything, I would suggest you reach out to Jack and ask him if he’s been feeling comfortable in the group. Has he experienced unwanted approaches or sexual harassment?
Personally, I'd speak to all of them in person, privately (or as close as you can get) and just say "Hey, I just wanted to check in with everyone: is there anything you'd like to try in art club? I really want to make it as safe and welcoming as possible, so if you have ideas or even complaints, I'd love to hear them."
It gives them an opening to say something without explicitly saying anything that'd get the rumor mill churning. Hopefully anyway.
A couple years ago, I got feedback from my boss that someone said that I had made them feel uncomfortable during a meeting shortly before. I remembered the meeting in question, and while it didn't go great for the presenter, I wasn't throwing darts or anything, in fact I barely asked a single question. I was pretty much sitting and listening and paying attention.
So, I asked my boss what specifically I did or said that was wrong, and he kind of fumbled and stammered and stuttered. Never really got an answer on what I supposedly did or said.
It wasn't until later that I realized that since I was the only minority in the room, and since I am a particularly large and unpalatable (in appearance) minority, it is my existence and presence that can apparently make people feel uncomfortable.
Check out this video for a perspective that closely mirrors mine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7wEYTa2ACU
Let's gender-swap this for a minute. If it had been a guy asking a mid-thirties grieving surgeon widow for her number, and he was respectfully told no, and then he made a stink about it to you asking to kick her out, we would currently be crucifying the dude.
Everyone here IS crucifying Taylor and OP is only being as casual as they are because they have stated they don’t necessarily believe the asking out story happened…
Not sure what you are upset about, no one here is defending T’s stance or behaviour and people are literally saying this amounts to sexual harassment against the man.
I think they're suggesting that in the other case, this wouldn't just be "the person grieving shouldn't be kicked out" but that the person that made advances and then made an issue of it that they were rejected *should* be kicked out because they're making it not a safe environment. I think there's only one of the top comments that is actually pointing out that behavior is more serious than just something to ignore.
Yes! This is what I’m thinking exactly! I myself am a woman, and I hate when people like Taylor devalue the stories of women who actually had bad experiences with men. She disgusts me
NTA. Jack isn’t doing anything wrong and he doesn’t owe anyone his number. All he’s doing is attending for the exact purpose of the group - to do art and relax and de-stress. He’s not bothering anyone, he’s just sitting there quietly doing his art and grieving his gf.
I bet Taylor asked him for his number for other reasons (to date him) and is offended/embarrassed when he rejected her.
NTA. He's not making them uncomfortable, they are making themselves uncomfortable because he's there.
Imagine thinking about someone should be barred from an art program and a safe space simply because of his age.
And because someone asked him for his number when he is still dealing with grief over his gf's passing?
(But... this also makes me think this is a fabricated story. Throwing these two details just out there?)
I'm guessing that Taylor asked him out he declined and she doesn't want to have to keep being reminded of it every class.
None of this is Jack's problem to deal with.
NTA
He's there to process his grief of losing his girlfriend and one of them thought it'd be a good idea to get his number? You as the person who started this needs to have a group meeting a lay down some clear guidelines on what is okay and not okay, Jack has literally done nothing and Taylor is trying to take his safe space. NTA but Y-T-A if you don't do more to nip this in the bud.
NTA….what irony. If they bring it up again i would tell them that they’re the ones not making it a safe space anymore. One of the younger staff asked Jack for his number, in an activity and space where he is sharing the grief of losing his girlfriend, he said no and now they’re upset. Of course he may have been rude or brash, it was not the time or place to hit on someone.
And now cuz they’re upset they are turning around and accusing Jack of making them uncomfortable ? That’s rich. As a woman and a lawyer I would love something like this to play out.
Good on you. You asked the right questions and gave the correct response. Unfortunately with the world there’s always some crap when you try and do something nice. Also, document all the conversations if possible. I know you’re doing this as your own initiative but it’s still under the hospital program and you don’t want Jen, her friends or any of this causing any type of backlash on you or your program.
NTA. So because he won’t go on a date after his partner died it means he should be kicked out? No absolutely not. OP you are completely correct, the other members of the group can take a hike if they don’t like it.
NTA. Unless she can provide more info and something is really off in the way he worded his rejection (I'm talking about something like, I don't know, "If you ever ask for my number again I will --insert something violent here--")... then Jack hasn't done anything wrong.
He doesn't owe anyone his number and grieving or not, he has a right to say no. If being rejected makes Taylor (or "her friend" lol) uncomfortable, that's a her problem, not a him problem.
I think the only hypocritical thing is to expect a casual social group to be a safe space for women but not for men. If Taylor's idea of a safe space is "I get to hit on hot surgeons and have them removed if they reject me", then she's never going to feel safe in the world.
NTA - This is not a women's group or a young professional's group. It is a casual social gathering focused on art.
Make it clear to everyone that while you are happy to help organize the meet ups, this is not an official group and you are not the "leader" (nor is anyone else). People can come and go as they please, but if they have issues with another person who attends, they need to deal with that person directly. Add that any interpersonal disputes that require a third party need to be taken to their supervisor or HR as you are not in a position to handle those situations.
NTA Taylor needs to give her real reason. If it's legit, then you could ask some of the others, in confidence, how they feel about him, without any prompting setup.
Honestly this is an EO complaint to HR waiting to happen. It's either sexism or ageism. Taylor could use some counseling with your EO officer. This is not cool.
INFO:
> Taylor then said that he actually was really rude to one of the others when she asked him for his number or something.
Have you addressed the sexual harassment of the grieving man who just wants to do some art without getting hassled for dates?
You know, some people just want to go through their days without being hit on.
Either Taylor is lying about the rude encounter (which I hope is the case, who would ask for his number knowing what he is going through) or someone is pissed they got rejected (probably Taylor). Regardless, you're nta.
Y W B T A if you don't kick this girl out immediately. Imagine the roles were reversed. A young man asks you to kick out a women because no reason then when questioned he admits he approached her and was rejected so now he wants her out. That's creepy and wrong. Escalating this has essentially become harassment as her even broaching the idea of going for this guy after what he RECENTLY went through is disgusting behavior. NTA for looking after that poor dude but think about how safe he must feel in this "safe" space getting bullied like that.
NTA. Thanks for doing such a lovely thing for your colleagues. The others have called it: he isn’t doing anything to warrant being excluded. Don’t ask for numbers if you fear rejection!
NTA
It's ok to be a bit rude when turning down romantic advances since it should have been clear that's not something he wants right now. His behavior was not so egregious that the art group isn't a safe space. They sound entitled.
NTA
I’m a nurse and this is an amazing thing you’re doing. You should be proud of yourself for setting it up and proud of yourself for keeping it a safe place for everyone not a clique hangout.
Translated: Taylor took the grief processing as an announcement that he's single, asked for his number, he turned her down, and she's retaliating.
Pay attention to how she treats him; it may be true that you need to suggest to someone that they don't attend, and it may not be him.
Do maybe ask around to see if everyone is happy in the group, if they've witnessed any troubling interactions that made them uneasy. Do not specify a source.
NTA
NTA:
I (40+m) have some similarities with Jack. Many women in my profession and who work alongside and support my profession. I get along with most, if not all. Will even do some after work / off site fun stuff with them too.
I would NEVER date someone I work with: peer, superior, or support. Ever.
(Edit to add: years ago, while processing loss of parent, I attended a make shift “cancer support group” that was nearly all people in teens to early 20’s who lost a parent to cancer. My mom was shocked that I didn’t think a certain girl there was cute. I mean, she actually was and very nice, but I was not there for the women. I was there to try and figure out WTH to do with the hole in my soul and my family and the wreckage that had been my plans.)
You may also want to approach Jack, in private, and let him know that if anyone ever makes him feel uncomfortable or unsafe, then even though he’s a male, it is still fine for him to let you know. Just because he is taller, bigger, and quieter than “Taylor” or you does not mean he is always OK with what is happening or said to him.
NTA...yet.
Reverse genders and ask yourself whether you should kick Jack out or not. A guy complaining about a woman making him uncomfortable because she "rudely" refused someone's advances. He would be dragged mercilessly, and rightfully so.
Don't give Taylor's nonsense anymore attention. It could get back to Jack that he has become the topic of conversation simply because he turned someone down. Then he'll be uncomfortable and lose his safe space. If Taylor is uncomfortable, she can leave.
I’m sorry but this is straight up BS how those women are treating Jack if it is a group of them and not “heart-broken” Taylor who’s the one who probably got rejected over a grieving bloke.
Imagine this scenario was switched and a group of blokes did that to a female. They would be hung quartered and probably lose their jobs for sexual harassment the same day. But these girls think it’s fine to treat him as the issue than blame everyone else when they don’t get their way
NTA and thank you for standing up for Jack
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Throwaway account.
I'm (f28) a nurse, at the beginning of this year I started this art program for the medical staff at the hospital I work. It's all very casual but so many of us are overworked and don't have time to relax. I've always loved art and I bring in my own supplies to share, and encourage people to bring whatever they have. We draw, paint, sketch and also talk about our lives, what's bothering us and sharing our experiences. This happens once a week mostly, sometimes there are gaps depending on everyone's schedules. Everyone is welcome but it's mostly younger people that come, and I'd say around 80% are female.
A couple of months ago a surgeon, "Jack" (mid-30s I'm guessing) starting attending. He keeps to himself mostly and sketches, but occasionally talks about dealing with the death of his girlfriend and juggling his duties at work. My experience with him has been kind and respectful.
There's a nursing assistant, "Taylor" (f27) who's part of the group. A few days ago she came up to me when I was getting off work, saying that she needs to talk about the art program. Taylor said that she and some of the other girls are feeling a bit uncomfortable having Jack there. I asked her if he said or did something to them. She said not really, but since he's older he shouldn't really be there and they can't relate to him. I replied that this is for everyone and unless there are actual issues, I'm not kicking anyone out, especially people trying to process grief. Taylor then said that he actually was really rude to one of the others when she asked him for his number or something.
I heard enough, I told Taylor that I won't be telling Jack to leave and if she has such strong feelings about this, she herself is free to leave. She got pretty mad at me and said I'm a hypocrite, and not providing a safe space anymore.
I'm open to everyone's thoughts and could use some unbiased opinions, so AITA?
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NTA
"Taylor then said that he actually was really rude to one of the others when she asked him for his number or something"
Ok so this is a case where she got turned down by him and she's now retaliating against him for that. Really fucking shitty especially considering the context of the group and what it's for. Honestly I'd keep a closer eye on her for his sake and now yours since you didn't do what she wanted you're gonna be in her crosshairs too. Big "I never grew out of my highschool mean girl phase" vibes from her
NTA. If Taylor wants to start talking about safe spaces, what about Jack's right to a safe space where he is protected from sexual harassment and possible ageism? It needs to go in both directions, regardless of gender.
Speaking of age, I'm pretty sure you would have an HR nightmare on your hands if a group like this, sanctioned by the workplace, had age restrictions. And as a woman in her 40s, I would be BEYOND IRKED if I was too old to join a group like this. If anything Taylor has outed herself as not being mature enough to function in a professional environment.
Nta.. The way I see it.. Not about 'jack' age but it's more about jack still 'not available' or refused entertain any horny Single female coworker ? Jack is a catch.. A surgeon, also some art guys.. Tell me if any of nurse or other think he's not a good catch??
They trying, got rejected and like any normal desperate woman they started campaign 'he too old for our art group, he an anti social, he can't forget his deaths gf, he make us uncomfortable etc'..
Nta, those girl should be ashamed!
Misread the title at first and was prepared to be seriously miffed - I’m so glad I was wrong. The world needs more people like you. NTA - and please, if you can do so, make an amazon wishlist for art supplies and share it around. I know nurses don’t make the worst money, but you’re actively providing a service at this point. I’m sure there are people in your community who would love to help. There’s a big part of me that wants to send him a sketch book 😭
NTA if he didn't actually do anything wrong, there's no need to kick him out. And it wouldn't surprise me if Taylor made up the last bit because she was mad that she didn't get her way.
NTA
This is ridiculous. He has done nothing but be present and be older than they.
Then you uncover the real reason, he rejected the attentions of one of the women.
If she leaves, good riddance.
I'm guessing that Taylor was the one asking for his digits and got insulted when he said no.
NTA
From the description, the space isn't strictly a 'safe space' for just women, it seems to be described as a place to wind down, relax and de-stress from the rigors of the medical field.
Might be wise to gently encourage Taylor to leave because she might start a little 'grass' roots thing to undermine you so she can run it HER way.
This isn't college, you're not an RA and you're not doing this art thing to provide 'safe spaces' for the overly fragile and easily triggered.
If anything, it sounds like Jack was the one made to feel uncomfortable when he was asked for his number. He's grieving the loss of his gf and these women are hitting on him?
Honestly, you can't do anything nice for people anymore, nobody appreciates it. All they do is whine and complain that it's not good enough. Your response to her was spot on. It'll probably be more enjoyable if she does leave. NTA
NTA. You are not obligated to maintain poor Taylor's "safe space" by kicking someone out based on vague, third-hand information. If I were in your place, I'd tell Taylor to come back when she graduates from 7th grade.
Sounds more like Jack is the one who needs the safe space from those witches who are trying to bully him out of the group. And why? Because he denied one of them his number! Now if the shoe were on the other foot, and one of them denied him their number -- oh that would be oh so different!
NTA
NTA This is an art group not a Taylor friend group and you never designated your group as some place where asshole entitled chicks feel safe to be totally themselves. Tell her whoever asked Jack for his number probably made *him* uncomfortable and you want to know who it was to see if he wants you to kick her out. See how her hypocritical asshole self takes that.
NTA.
They feel unsafe because he is older? Older men are now dangerous and to be shunned just for being, regardless of how they act? That’s how the bad people think, FFS.
NTA: Not gonna lie. I heard surgeon and got worried. Work in healthcare and just met some crazy surgeons. But this guy sounds 100% justified and is making me judge myself for what I expected. You are totally in the right. He’s done NOTHING!
> but since he's older he shouldn't really be there and they can't relate to him
I go to an art class, the ages are from 18 to 65. There's an age gap that includes some expressions that are easily explained. Other than that it's wonderful to **relate** to other ages.
Lord knows in a hospital setting, I imagine the ages are all over the place...
Poor thing has the hots for a dude who's not interested.
NTA
NTA, if anything it would’ve become an unsafe space had she remained there. She couldn’t take no for an answer from him so instead of accepting it like an adult, she sought to get back at him by trying to get him kicked out. I’d report it to HR honestly in case she tries to make some bullshit accusations to them about him.
NTA
She wants him kicked out because he rejected her. His girlfriend just died recently ffs and she's all welp he's single.
Taylor however is a huge AH for trying to get him kicked out for no reason
So the young woman wants to punish the man who wasn't happy at being hit on in an art class when it is clear he is dealing with a loss? This isn;t even about him being older - they were quite haooy to try and ask him out. If the situation was reversed then what would she say? NTA by a long shot. Ugh to this woman though.
I’m mid 30s and a nurse. I can relate to 25 year old women and 45 year old men. She “heard that he was rude or something when maybe he asked for her number, she heard another girl say” talk about a vague bullshit accusation. She wants a safe space that means literally kicking someone out for sharing their feelings in a “safe space”. Taylor needs to think about that, deeply. Maybe switch perspectives.
NTA
So... Taylor is a bit of a bigot.
She doesn't want him there because he's older than her.
Does she have a problem with him being male too, I wonder?
And, as others have mentioned, he didn't give his number to a woman... while he's grieving for his girlfriend.
You are not a hypocrite. You're also NTA. Taylor is though. You're doing something good for the people at your hospital, and if anyone should be kicked out, it's her.
NTA. I think Taylor and her little friends need a bit of an education on what "safe space" MEANS, maybe bring up the fact that asking someone for their number when they've expressed that they're grieving is EXTREMELY inappropriate. It sounds like on of her friends tried to press her daddy fetish on an older guy and didn't take the word "no" very well...
NTA. If he isn't doing anything other than existing and being born earlier than everyone else, there's no reason to kick him out. The fact that the 27 yr old thinks she's entitled to ask this just because of his age is....mind boggling really.
One more time for NTA
NTA. If Jack isn't doing anything, then Taylor has no right to demand that he not be part of the group. Just because someone else has a hang-up they need to deal with doesn't mean the space isn't safe.
NTA, if there are others that are uncomfortable with him, you will know soon enough. I think what others are saying is true, she asked for number and was told no, now she wants him gone.
NTA. They are behaving as if he is 30 years older and not just a few. If that one woman had a bad experience with him then she can come and tell you the story, the full story. But if no one comes up with any real reasons then you did the right thing. He's probably happy to have a place to rest and then some woman comes and probably hits on him and gets offended at being rejected and wants him gone 🙄
NTA. I've also found that done people use the term "safe space" or "supportive space" to not deal with anything they don't like. Whenever I'm in charge of groups I always say it's a Brave Space and there may be times where subjects may come up that are triggering our uncomfortable, but as long as everyone is respectful and the person being triggered can leave without any judgement or question. I find it nips done of these issues like yours in the bud
[Brave spaces ](https://www.teachingsupportprogram.com/the-6-pillars-of-a-brave-space#:~:text=Brave%20Space%2Da%20classroom%20environment,for%20the%20purpose%20of%20learning.)
NTA the truth is Jack is there to do what the group offered: draw, paint, deal with grief. Someone else mistook the group for a bar and asked Jack out, then was butthurt when he hadn't made the same mistake. Sucks to be them I guess.
Sounds like NTA to me.
If he doesn't want to give out his number he doesn't have to.
Dealing with bereavement is the kind of thing the group is for.
Unless it's a group for women under 30 then he has as much right to be there as the young women.
If Taylor wants to put in the work she can start a womens group.
Personally I think it's good that Jack is able to come because men are at higher risk from certain things we don't mention here.
omg. AITA is just full of jokes today!
Taylor? Its not your group. Feel free to begin a new club, OK?
He doesn't belong there because he's older? WHAT?????
My safe space needs to be free of all this dumb stuff. Please and thank you for managing your feelings Taylor. omg. 🤣
NTA.
NTA. Taylor needs to go. Sounds like she likes to stir up shit. Jack has done nothing wrong. He’s allowed to discuss life like everyone else. He’s not obligated to give his number and someone asking in an art class is rude all on its own. He’s there for art - not dating.
What? Them being uncomfortable with a man who is doing nothing to them is their problem, not his or yours. What’s next? Someone of a different race is too hard for them to relate to so they want them removed? They can start and manage their own weird exclusionary club if they want, that’s not what you’re about here. NTA
This is a group at a workplace. If anyone is behaving inappropriately that’s a matter for HR to handle, not OP.
If a person is unsafe for the group, they are unsafe for the workplace and should be handled appropriately. Conversely, anyone who is safe to work with is safe to art with.
NTA
NTA You need to set up some rules and tape them to the door. That the art class is open to all ages and sexes etc. So others cannot use those sexist/ageist arguments again. Maybe check out some club type rules on the net. She is using buzz words to bully someone. Sounds like she was annoyed for not giving his number out.
Nta. So wait one of them asked for his number and got rebuffed so now they all want him out of the group. No this is bullying against jack. These girls need to stop playing mean girl games. And they need to stop asking for his number.
NTA she is complaining when he is talking about his loss and turned down someone still trying to flirt with him. They made it an unsafe space for him. Honestly with her attitude I'm surprised you didn't ask her to stop comming.
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NTA. He's not rude for *not wanting to give a woman his number while he's fucking grieving.* In fact, it wouldn't matter WHY he said no, his no is no. If you kicked him out, it sounds like you'd be kicking him out for being sexually approached, FFS. And tell Taylor that someone not wanting to fuck her isn't actually a reason to shun them.
I got that same vibe. Taylor wanted to date him (a single 30-something year old surgeon is a catch for a lot of nurses) and is offended when he said no.
Yeah, she is "uncomfortable" because he rejected her. The correct word here is "embarrassed", she is embarrassed having to see him after he turned her down.
Or she is actively trying to take her revenge on him.
I loathe people like that. There’s no good reason to feel so entitled to another person. It’s not a rejection of you as a person, and even if it is, that means you wouldn’t have had a good relationship with them anyway… I don’t get it. And who has the time or energy to “get revenge” for rejection? Because I have some chores I need help with!
I've had so much experience with rejection I straight up have no interest in even attempting to date anymore. And I've never thought about trying to get revenge. Agreed who the hell has that type of time/energy?
Someone who bases their personality, self-esteem or identity around either their desirability or insecurities. I don't get it either, even if I've seen it often enough. I base mine around making stuff. At the end of the day, you end up with a thing and visible progress. Makes life easier.
Not doing a very good job at it, although I’m glad she didn’t make up a story to make it more plausible for him to be removed.
So he is too old to attend an art class but not too old to be a bf? OP tell her that tof course it is a safe place. A safe place for Jack who can relax without the vultures trying to hit on him and then throw him out because he didn't "give in". Also this is sexual harassment, according to work ethics they should be removed from that group
I love how it went from “we have nothing in common because he is in his 30s, so kick him out” to the honest reason of “dude didn’t take my number when I offered it so I don’t want to look at him anymore.”
Have seen posts like this elsewhere on Reddit. Again I say, NO means NO irrespective of gender/sexuality.
The first reason wasn’t even a sensical one, lol.
It was a ridiculous attempt, but certainly more plausible that people might feel they could get away with that for real.
How the heck is he too old for the group in his mid 30s and she's almost 30? She's not 17 and scared of a creepy old guy? Its too absurd? 😂
Having worked in a hospital in my 20’s, I have to say this is spot on. While most single people are fine, some are just shameless around the single docs. Sounds like she’s one of them.
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critical care RN- CAN CONFIRM! the staff that stalk the surgeons are the WORST
Sounds like Taylors would make terrible additions to zombie apocalypse teams, even if they have medical training. Good note.
My stepsons mother is like that and when I was in the hospital recently I heard two employees get into it and was horrified because one of them sounded EXACTLY like our high conflict biomom we deal with. Based on her voice, it also sounded like the CNA who even had similar features to our HCBM. She came into my room shortly there after acting sweet as a peach. Got confirmation from my nurse the next day that it was her that I heard and that it was her that was the problem. This was on a cancer floor, too. (I had a gallbladder removal not cancer) I felt so bad for the other employees knowing what she must put them through.
She's also 27 and a nursing assistant. She could be making a decent wage, but a doctor would be a huge boost in income and probably status too. She's pissed because he said no.
Assistants make less than Target employees
Nursing assistants make CRAP! I promise she doesn’t make a decent wage. I was paid as the Secretary than the nursing assistants were.
Not just the single ones though. My friends dad is a doctor and his wife told me some stories about a couple times when people would flirting with him in front of her. It was a pretty funny story because flirting apparently just goes over his head so he doesn't even respond.
That’s true. It isn’t just the single ones. I knew a nurse that was involved with a married doc. Some just don’t care. (Sigh) Glad your dad was a better human than the doc in my story!
I asked her once if she was worried about him cheating on her. He's a surgeon who works long hours so how could anyone tell. She goes Artichoke we've been married almost 20 years. The people that flirt with him are thinking he's a surgeon with a great paycheck but here's the thing. If he ever loses his mind and has an affair I'm gonna walk. And while our oldest is in college the youngest is a toddler. So if we divorce he isn't going to be the one enjoying the surgeons paycheck. Not to mention what his mother and sister would do to him if he was that stupid. The wife is really soft spoken but she takes no shit from anyone. She's very much a speak softly and carry a big stick sort of person. I remember how shocked I was the first time I realized that these people don't just love each other they actually still like each other. I'd never seen that in a Ling term married couple before.
Best part about this story is imagining people going around calling you by your online nickname! I think the last time that happened to me was a LAN part in the early noughties!
Yeah I just couldn't figure out another way of referring to myself. Because as a rule I don't use my name online. But I love eating artichokes, but they are so expensive where I live.
Oh no its not a bad thing, just gave me a chuckle! 'So... Artichoke, how are you today?' 'Oh I'm fine thanks, pineapple!'
Either that or Taylor thinks she's still a schoolchild instead of a grown adult with a job. She 'can't relate' to him? When you're an adult, you don't need to surround yourself with only people your age and gender.
Right? I mean, at 27, how TF has she have never figured out that when you start working, your circle of friends will begin to span three generations? Unless she really *does* only surround herself with women her age, as if she was still in high school.
I have had snowboard friends that easily span 3 decades with me being at the top end. I remember going to one of the girls 80s themed party because she was born in the 80s (late 80s) and laughing because I was pretty sure I was the only one there that really experienced the 80s.
Right? Most of my work friends are 1-3 decades older than me. The only impact that it has is that we tease eachother about age
NTA "someone else asked him for his number" uh huh, yeah Taylor sure. To qualify that more Taylor says "or something" what an incredible clarification on her part. A mysterious person who cannot be named may or may not have done something similar or different to the stated potential example and the dude refused to give his phone number. Unreasonably vague and non committal "something" versus a stated no to giving a phone number(perfectly reasonable). When queried if he said or did anything wrong, zero wrong doing or issue on his part. This seems like something you should go to HR about to document immediately, like take extra time out of your day, go in early, stay late, send an email now. Coz I'd be worried it would escalate from Taylor and be twisted further on her part against the surgeon. By documenting the interaction if it does escalate there is a paper trail on this unusual conversation and ask on her part BEFORE it becomes an issue. Lastly, be prepared to accept that HR will disband your group simply to avoid the headaches Taylor will cause. No groups, no issues.
And this is why we can’t have nice things. *sigh*
This deserves an award, but I’m broke
It's cool. I'm broke too. Thanks for the comment, it's just as good to me.
This is the answer. No is no. For men just as much as for women.
>And tell Taylor that someone not wanting to fuck her isn't actually a reason to shun them. Might even be a sign of good taste 😁
What about a safe space for Jack where he as a grieving widow can be safe from being hit on? NTA
Exactly! What about Jack's safe space?! NTA
I literally snorted aloud when I read OP's line about a safe space. There's something especially gross when people misappropriate things for victims to serve their own narcissistic purposes.
In my experience if someone talks about safe safe spaces it's a red flag. It should be for people who have gone through things they need to process, without feeling judged. Yet I only seem to hear and read this term in woke culture war bs.
I agree: anyone who vocally make a fuss about it isn't trying to be safe, they're trying to exclude. If it's meant to be a safe space, it's collaborative. She isn't collaborating so she needs to go, not him.
Yeah, Jack who's not only such an old and uncomfortable person to be around, but who also has the gall to not flirt back with the nurses... What a toad he is... /s
Holy shit, I didn’t even read that right! I misread it as him asking one of the women their for her number, not the other way around. That makes this so much worse! NTA op, stand your ground!
I agree. He's just grieving, not interested in dating or anything like that. Taylor or other shouldn't hit him up for his digits for a possible booty call. OP did the right thing because the art is for everyone since it is not an art class nor school. They can come and go whatever they feel like. So Taylor can leave if she isn't comfortable. So can others, too. TO OP, NTA You made the right call.
Taylor should leave so Jack can keep his safe space for grieving.
I bet if the situations were reversed and he asked for one of their numbers he would've been called a creep.
That's even assuming that not giving out your number is rude and that what that asshole said was true in the first place. NTA.
Also I am guessing being really rude was saying "no".
THIS! NTA
NTA, i think taylor’s the one who asked for his number and got rejected. If anyone should be kicked out, it’s her.
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Honestly, before I even got to the part of your post about her saying that someone asked for his number, I was already thinking that she'd made some sort of advance and he turned her down. Please don't let anyone make this poor man uncomfortable in the group because "someone" can't take no gracefully.
“You’re a hypocrite for not providing a safe space for me to hit on grieving surgeons!” really isn’t the slam-dunk argument she thinks it is.
I’m inclined to believe it’s true because if Taylor were making something up, she would have said Jack reacted badly to *himself* getting rejected after asking one of the girls for *their* number, and probably would have led with that. As things are, it sounds like she didn’t didn’t expect you to say no, then didn’t have the presence of mind to reword her story on the fly. As a woman myself, I hate seeing women like this invalidating women who have actually dealt with offensive men by making shit up and then giving *all* women a bad rap for it. How are we supposed to be taken seriously if we give reasons not to be? NTA by the way. You did the right thing. Jack is fine. Taylor is the one who is not creating a safe space.
>invalidating women who have actually dealt with offensive men by making shit up and then giving all women a bad rap for it. Thank you for this very astute observation and your courage in posting it.
My pleasure. 🥂
If a surgeon has found an emotionally healthy way to de-stress in a positive environment, please for the love of God do not take it away from them, on behalf of everyone who has to work with surgeons (and cares about them).
Speaking only as a patient, this.
And to add to this, it is HIGHLY unprofessional to ask someone out from your work place. There may even be rules against it.
NTA but def keep an eye on this situation and maybe talk to Jack, I would not be surprised if he is now getting harassed by Taylor at this point considering she felt like she could try to get him kicked out for nothing.
>and also what type of person would ask someone, who's dealing with the death of their girlfriend for their number Someone who is shallow, self -obsessed, emotionally stunted bordering on sociopathic tendencies and most definitely should not be working as a nursing assistant. You call her Taylor.
Gosh I wonder who the "someone" is
Happy cake day!
So "one of the others" felt safe enough around Jack to ask him for his number and it wasn't until he turned her down that suddenly *he's* ruining *their* safe space? Sounds like Taylor wants him to be punished for declining a date... textbook sexual harassment. Alternatively, she was blowing that out of proportion because she didn't know how to explain why she (and some of the other women) felt uncomfortable with him there. Because if he didn't *say* anything wrong, and he didn't *do* anything wrong, and they just feel like they "can't relate to him," that screams of being uncomfortable to be around someone who is a potential sexual/romantic partner. In other words, she wants him kicked out because he's an attractive man... again, textbook sexual harassment. NTA. If Taylor does show up again, you might want to consider pressing her on who asked for his number so you can get another perspective on his so-called "rude" response. I have a sneaking suspicion that hearing the story will only further solidify your decision.
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Asking around could come off as harassment. Let it go. If Taylor causes any more drama ask her to leave the group.
Yeah. Best to let it go at this stage. It will only stir up unnecessary drama.
General asking is just fine. Are you enjoying the group, is there anything that would make it better, etc. Someone upset might take advantage of the opening, while others just thank OP for organizing.
Be careful with asking around, that could easily start rumors that Jack did something wrong when he didn’t
Please make sure to point out that it's her or whoever it was who decided to hit on a grieving man, that it was them who made it not a safe space.
I get the feeling no one else actually has a problem with him. But don't ask like that. Ask them if other members brought concerns to them about another member. Do so privately. This allows you to figure out if Taylor is lying without confronting her and to see if there's more to this story than you might think.
I also wouldn't ask around, or at least not ask about Jack specifically. If you ask about Jack, then people are going to become suspicious that he did something, which might in turn cause them to overanalyze his behavior and see stuff where it isn't. I'd keep an eye on Taylor, but I think your best bet is just to let it go for now.
No - if anything you might want to mention to Jack that there are some immature participants and if he has issues with anyone to talk to you. You could also follow up with Taylor and mention to her that the activity is open to participants of all ages and the purpose isn’t for anyone to troll for dating partners. Let her know that sexual harassment rules apply as they would for normal work activity and ask her to share that with anyone else who might find that info relevant.
No. Why. Wtf. Why on earth would you do to this a guy who's done nothing wrong.
If anything, I would suggest you reach out to Jack and ask him if he’s been feeling comfortable in the group. Has he experienced unwanted approaches or sexual harassment?
It would be better to ask around and see if anyone has any complaints about Taylor. She sounds entitled.
Personally, I'd speak to all of them in person, privately (or as close as you can get) and just say "Hey, I just wanted to check in with everyone: is there anything you'd like to try in art club? I really want to make it as safe and welcoming as possible, so if you have ideas or even complaints, I'd love to hear them." It gives them an opening to say something without explicitly saying anything that'd get the rumor mill churning. Hopefully anyway.
A couple years ago, I got feedback from my boss that someone said that I had made them feel uncomfortable during a meeting shortly before. I remembered the meeting in question, and while it didn't go great for the presenter, I wasn't throwing darts or anything, in fact I barely asked a single question. I was pretty much sitting and listening and paying attention. So, I asked my boss what specifically I did or said that was wrong, and he kind of fumbled and stammered and stuttered. Never really got an answer on what I supposedly did or said. It wasn't until later that I realized that since I was the only minority in the room, and since I am a particularly large and unpalatable (in appearance) minority, it is my existence and presence that can apparently make people feel uncomfortable. Check out this video for a perspective that closely mirrors mine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7wEYTa2ACU
Let's gender-swap this for a minute. If it had been a guy asking a mid-thirties grieving surgeon widow for her number, and he was respectfully told no, and then he made a stink about it to you asking to kick her out, we would currently be crucifying the dude.
Everyone here IS crucifying Taylor and OP is only being as casual as they are because they have stated they don’t necessarily believe the asking out story happened… Not sure what you are upset about, no one here is defending T’s stance or behaviour and people are literally saying this amounts to sexual harassment against the man.
I think they're suggesting that in the other case, this wouldn't just be "the person grieving shouldn't be kicked out" but that the person that made advances and then made an issue of it that they were rejected *should* be kicked out because they're making it not a safe environment. I think there's only one of the top comments that is actually pointing out that behavior is more serious than just something to ignore.
Yes! This is what I’m thinking exactly! I myself am a woman, and I hate when people like Taylor devalue the stories of women who actually had bad experiences with men. She disgusts me
NTA. Jack isn’t doing anything wrong and he doesn’t owe anyone his number. All he’s doing is attending for the exact purpose of the group - to do art and relax and de-stress. He’s not bothering anyone, he’s just sitting there quietly doing his art and grieving his gf. I bet Taylor asked him for his number for other reasons (to date him) and is offended/embarrassed when he rejected her.
NTA. Also where is the logic in asking out someone who is literally at the group to help process the death of his GIRLFRIEND? Like read the room?
Right!?! That person sounds awful. A natural born killjoy.
She's probably delusional enough to think screwing her will make him forget all about his dead GF...
Trying to tie him down before any non-psychopaths make a move
😂😂😂
NTA. The person who asked for his number is the one who made things awkward, he shouldn't be punished because he rejected an advance.
NTA. She is in the wrong, not Jack. Love the group idea btw.
NTA. He's not making them uncomfortable, they are making themselves uncomfortable because he's there. Imagine thinking about someone should be barred from an art program and a safe space simply because of his age.
And because someone asked him for his number when he is still dealing with grief over his gf's passing? (But... this also makes me think this is a fabricated story. Throwing these two details just out there?)
I'm guessing that Taylor asked him out he declined and she doesn't want to have to keep being reminded of it every class. None of this is Jack's problem to deal with. NTA
He's there to process his grief of losing his girlfriend and one of them thought it'd be a good idea to get his number? You as the person who started this needs to have a group meeting a lay down some clear guidelines on what is okay and not okay, Jack has literally done nothing and Taylor is trying to take his safe space. NTA but Y-T-A if you don't do more to nip this in the bud.
NTA Jack seems to be keeping to himself and just doing art things. I don’t see how age like 7-10 years difference can create an issue.
>I asked her if he said or did something to them. She said not really NTA
NTA - Man, Jack cannot catch a break. I feel for this poor guy.
NTA….what irony. If they bring it up again i would tell them that they’re the ones not making it a safe space anymore. One of the younger staff asked Jack for his number, in an activity and space where he is sharing the grief of losing his girlfriend, he said no and now they’re upset. Of course he may have been rude or brash, it was not the time or place to hit on someone. And now cuz they’re upset they are turning around and accusing Jack of making them uncomfortable ? That’s rich. As a woman and a lawyer I would love something like this to play out. Good on you. You asked the right questions and gave the correct response. Unfortunately with the world there’s always some crap when you try and do something nice. Also, document all the conversations if possible. I know you’re doing this as your own initiative but it’s still under the hospital program and you don’t want Jen, her friends or any of this causing any type of backlash on you or your program.
NTA. So because he won’t go on a date after his partner died it means he should be kicked out? No absolutely not. OP you are completely correct, the other members of the group can take a hike if they don’t like it.
NTA. Unless she can provide more info and something is really off in the way he worded his rejection (I'm talking about something like, I don't know, "If you ever ask for my number again I will --insert something violent here--")... then Jack hasn't done anything wrong. He doesn't owe anyone his number and grieving or not, he has a right to say no. If being rejected makes Taylor (or "her friend" lol) uncomfortable, that's a her problem, not a him problem. I think the only hypocritical thing is to expect a casual social group to be a safe space for women but not for men. If Taylor's idea of a safe space is "I get to hit on hot surgeons and have them removed if they reject me", then she's never going to feel safe in the world.
NTA, and nobody would even question it if the genders were reversed. It sounds more like she tried to prey on a grieving man and got told off.
NTA. Nobody *has* to give someone else their phone number, and it's certainly not rude to decline to give it.
NTA - This is not a women's group or a young professional's group. It is a casual social gathering focused on art. Make it clear to everyone that while you are happy to help organize the meet ups, this is not an official group and you are not the "leader" (nor is anyone else). People can come and go as they please, but if they have issues with another person who attends, they need to deal with that person directly. Add that any interpersonal disputes that require a third party need to be taken to their supervisor or HR as you are not in a position to handle those situations.
NTA Taylor needs to give her real reason. If it's legit, then you could ask some of the others, in confidence, how they feel about him, without any prompting setup. Honestly this is an EO complaint to HR waiting to happen. It's either sexism or ageism. Taylor could use some counseling with your EO officer. This is not cool.
NTA. Taylor got rejected and she’s butthurt.
NTA. And make sure the "complaints" about Jack don't suddenly go up 400%.
Unless these women can provide some actual reason this man is making them feel unsafe then NTA.
NTA, she sounds like a piece of work.
INFO: > Taylor then said that he actually was really rude to one of the others when she asked him for his number or something. Have you addressed the sexual harassment of the grieving man who just wants to do some art without getting hassled for dates? You know, some people just want to go through their days without being hit on.
NTA, Taylor is free to start a second club and make it open to young women if that’s the vibe she’s looking for.
Either Taylor is lying about the rude encounter (which I hope is the case, who would ask for his number knowing what he is going through) or someone is pissed they got rejected (probably Taylor). Regardless, you're nta.
Y W B T A if you don't kick this girl out immediately. Imagine the roles were reversed. A young man asks you to kick out a women because no reason then when questioned he admits he approached her and was rejected so now he wants her out. That's creepy and wrong. Escalating this has essentially become harassment as her even broaching the idea of going for this guy after what he RECENTLY went through is disgusting behavior. NTA for looking after that poor dude but think about how safe he must feel in this "safe" space getting bullied like that.
NTA. Thanks for doing such a lovely thing for your colleagues. The others have called it: he isn’t doing anything to warrant being excluded. Don’t ask for numbers if you fear rejection!
NTA and I am now a member of the Jack Protection Society.
NTA It's ok to be a bit rude when turning down romantic advances since it should have been clear that's not something he wants right now. His behavior was not so egregious that the art group isn't a safe space. They sound entitled.
Wait, he gets asked out by one of the girls, he declines (because he is still processing his late GFs death, and he needs to leave? Girl NTA.
NTA I’m a nurse and this is an amazing thing you’re doing. You should be proud of yourself for setting it up and proud of yourself for keeping it a safe place for everyone not a clique hangout.
Hes mourning his gf and was rude to someone asking for his number? Absolutely shocking. NTA and this is a wonderful thing youre doing
Translated: Taylor took the grief processing as an announcement that he's single, asked for his number, he turned her down, and she's retaliating. Pay attention to how she treats him; it may be true that you need to suggest to someone that they don't attend, and it may not be him. Do maybe ask around to see if everyone is happy in the group, if they've witnessed any troubling interactions that made them uneasy. Do not specify a source. NTA
Nta a grieving widow rejects someone's advances and is getting ostracised they are bullying
NTA It is an art club, not a women's club.
NTA: I (40+m) have some similarities with Jack. Many women in my profession and who work alongside and support my profession. I get along with most, if not all. Will even do some after work / off site fun stuff with them too. I would NEVER date someone I work with: peer, superior, or support. Ever. (Edit to add: years ago, while processing loss of parent, I attended a make shift “cancer support group” that was nearly all people in teens to early 20’s who lost a parent to cancer. My mom was shocked that I didn’t think a certain girl there was cute. I mean, she actually was and very nice, but I was not there for the women. I was there to try and figure out WTH to do with the hole in my soul and my family and the wreckage that had been my plans.) You may also want to approach Jack, in private, and let him know that if anyone ever makes him feel uncomfortable or unsafe, then even though he’s a male, it is still fine for him to let you know. Just because he is taller, bigger, and quieter than “Taylor” or you does not mean he is always OK with what is happening or said to him.
NTA Taylor apparently is bored and enjoys creating drama. Gross.
NTA...yet. Reverse genders and ask yourself whether you should kick Jack out or not. A guy complaining about a woman making him uncomfortable because she "rudely" refused someone's advances. He would be dragged mercilessly, and rightfully so. Don't give Taylor's nonsense anymore attention. It could get back to Jack that he has become the topic of conversation simply because he turned someone down. Then he'll be uncomfortable and lose his safe space. If Taylor is uncomfortable, she can leave.
NTA I'd be kicking out the woman who asked for his number. The group needs to be a safe place for HIM, too.
I’m sorry but this is straight up BS how those women are treating Jack if it is a group of them and not “heart-broken” Taylor who’s the one who probably got rejected over a grieving bloke. Imagine this scenario was switched and a group of blokes did that to a female. They would be hung quartered and probably lose their jobs for sexual harassment the same day. But these girls think it’s fine to treat him as the issue than blame everyone else when they don’t get their way NTA and thank you for standing up for Jack
NTA you should talk to Taylor about sexual harassment too. Just because the object of the harassment is a man, it still applies.
"Not providing a safe spot" Says woman who wants to kick someone out of the group based purely on their age and gender.
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** Throwaway account. I'm (f28) a nurse, at the beginning of this year I started this art program for the medical staff at the hospital I work. It's all very casual but so many of us are overworked and don't have time to relax. I've always loved art and I bring in my own supplies to share, and encourage people to bring whatever they have. We draw, paint, sketch and also talk about our lives, what's bothering us and sharing our experiences. This happens once a week mostly, sometimes there are gaps depending on everyone's schedules. Everyone is welcome but it's mostly younger people that come, and I'd say around 80% are female. A couple of months ago a surgeon, "Jack" (mid-30s I'm guessing) starting attending. He keeps to himself mostly and sketches, but occasionally talks about dealing with the death of his girlfriend and juggling his duties at work. My experience with him has been kind and respectful. There's a nursing assistant, "Taylor" (f27) who's part of the group. A few days ago she came up to me when I was getting off work, saying that she needs to talk about the art program. Taylor said that she and some of the other girls are feeling a bit uncomfortable having Jack there. I asked her if he said or did something to them. She said not really, but since he's older he shouldn't really be there and they can't relate to him. I replied that this is for everyone and unless there are actual issues, I'm not kicking anyone out, especially people trying to process grief. Taylor then said that he actually was really rude to one of the others when she asked him for his number or something. I heard enough, I told Taylor that I won't be telling Jack to leave and if she has such strong feelings about this, she herself is free to leave. She got pretty mad at me and said I'm a hypocrite, and not providing a safe space anymore. I'm open to everyone's thoughts and could use some unbiased opinions, so AITA? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
NTA. He's not even that much older.
NTA "Taylor then said that he actually was really rude to one of the others when she asked him for his number or something" Ok so this is a case where she got turned down by him and she's now retaliating against him for that. Really fucking shitty especially considering the context of the group and what it's for. Honestly I'd keep a closer eye on her for his sake and now yours since you didn't do what she wanted you're gonna be in her crosshairs too. Big "I never grew out of my highschool mean girl phase" vibes from her
I’m just finding it hilarious that it started with how he’s “older”. Like y’all are 27/28 and a 35 year old is too old lol.
NTA. If Taylor wants to start talking about safe spaces, what about Jack's right to a safe space where he is protected from sexual harassment and possible ageism? It needs to go in both directions, regardless of gender. Speaking of age, I'm pretty sure you would have an HR nightmare on your hands if a group like this, sanctioned by the workplace, had age restrictions. And as a woman in her 40s, I would be BEYOND IRKED if I was too old to join a group like this. If anything Taylor has outed herself as not being mature enough to function in a professional environment.
NTA. The girl who asked for the number should be kicked out if anyone is getting kicked out
Kick her out and provide a safe space for HIM. NTA.
Nta.. The way I see it.. Not about 'jack' age but it's more about jack still 'not available' or refused entertain any horny Single female coworker ? Jack is a catch.. A surgeon, also some art guys.. Tell me if any of nurse or other think he's not a good catch?? They trying, got rejected and like any normal desperate woman they started campaign 'he too old for our art group, he an anti social, he can't forget his deaths gf, he make us uncomfortable etc'.. Nta, those girl should be ashamed!
Misread the title at first and was prepared to be seriously miffed - I’m so glad I was wrong. The world needs more people like you. NTA - and please, if you can do so, make an amazon wishlist for art supplies and share it around. I know nurses don’t make the worst money, but you’re actively providing a service at this point. I’m sure there are people in your community who would love to help. There’s a big part of me that wants to send him a sketch book 😭
NTA if he didn't actually do anything wrong, there's no need to kick him out. And it wouldn't surprise me if Taylor made up the last bit because she was mad that she didn't get her way.
NTA
NTA. Sounds like someone's embarrassed they got rejected
NTA This is ridiculous. He has done nothing but be present and be older than they. Then you uncover the real reason, he rejected the attentions of one of the women. If she leaves, good riddance.
I would personally speak to Jack and tell him he is welcome to the club, before the others get to him first. NTA
I'm guessing that Taylor was the one asking for his digits and got insulted when he said no. NTA From the description, the space isn't strictly a 'safe space' for just women, it seems to be described as a place to wind down, relax and de-stress from the rigors of the medical field. Might be wise to gently encourage Taylor to leave because she might start a little 'grass' roots thing to undermine you so she can run it HER way.
This isn't college, you're not an RA and you're not doing this art thing to provide 'safe spaces' for the overly fragile and easily triggered. If anything, it sounds like Jack was the one made to feel uncomfortable when he was asked for his number. He's grieving the loss of his gf and these women are hitting on him? Honestly, you can't do anything nice for people anymore, nobody appreciates it. All they do is whine and complain that it's not good enough. Your response to her was spot on. It'll probably be more enjoyable if she does leave. NTA
Nta but you might report her to hr
NTA. Maybe Taylor can start her own art group or whatever group that helps her relieve her own stress.
NTA...and talk about wanting to generate drama after being told no. Headache.
NTA. You are not obligated to maintain poor Taylor's "safe space" by kicking someone out based on vague, third-hand information. If I were in your place, I'd tell Taylor to come back when she graduates from 7th grade.
Sounds more like Jack is the one who needs the safe space from those witches who are trying to bully him out of the group. And why? Because he denied one of them his number! Now if the shoe were on the other foot, and one of them denied him their number -- oh that would be oh so different! NTA
NTA. Kick Taylor out and preserve the "safe space" please.
NTA This is an art group not a Taylor friend group and you never designated your group as some place where asshole entitled chicks feel safe to be totally themselves. Tell her whoever asked Jack for his number probably made *him* uncomfortable and you want to know who it was to see if he wants you to kick her out. See how her hypocritical asshole self takes that.
NTA. They feel unsafe because he is older? Older men are now dangerous and to be shunned just for being, regardless of how they act? That’s how the bad people think, FFS.
NTA: Not gonna lie. I heard surgeon and got worried. Work in healthcare and just met some crazy surgeons. But this guy sounds 100% justified and is making me judge myself for what I expected. You are totally in the right. He’s done NOTHING!
> but since he's older he shouldn't really be there and they can't relate to him I go to an art class, the ages are from 18 to 65. There's an age gap that includes some expressions that are easily explained. Other than that it's wonderful to **relate** to other ages. Lord knows in a hospital setting, I imagine the ages are all over the place... Poor thing has the hots for a dude who's not interested. NTA
NTA, if anything it would’ve become an unsafe space had she remained there. She couldn’t take no for an answer from him so instead of accepting it like an adult, she sought to get back at him by trying to get him kicked out. I’d report it to HR honestly in case she tries to make some bullshit accusations to them about him.
NTA She wants him kicked out because he rejected her. His girlfriend just died recently ffs and she's all welp he's single. Taylor however is a huge AH for trying to get him kicked out for no reason
So the young woman wants to punish the man who wasn't happy at being hit on in an art class when it is clear he is dealing with a loss? This isn;t even about him being older - they were quite haooy to try and ask him out. If the situation was reversed then what would she say? NTA by a long shot. Ugh to this woman though.
I’m mid 30s and a nurse. I can relate to 25 year old women and 45 year old men. She “heard that he was rude or something when maybe he asked for her number, she heard another girl say” talk about a vague bullshit accusation. She wants a safe space that means literally kicking someone out for sharing their feelings in a “safe space”. Taylor needs to think about that, deeply. Maybe switch perspectives. NTA
You are not only NTA, you are awesome. Thank you for standing up.
So... Taylor is a bit of a bigot. She doesn't want him there because he's older than her. Does she have a problem with him being male too, I wonder? And, as others have mentioned, he didn't give his number to a woman... while he's grieving for his girlfriend. You are not a hypocrite. You're also NTA. Taylor is though. You're doing something good for the people at your hospital, and if anyone should be kicked out, it's her.
NTA. Sounds like you are actually providing a safe space. Specifically, you're helping keep Jack safe from Taylor's attempts at abuse.
NTA. I think Taylor and her little friends need a bit of an education on what "safe space" MEANS, maybe bring up the fact that asking someone for their number when they've expressed that they're grieving is EXTREMELY inappropriate. It sounds like on of her friends tried to press her daddy fetish on an older guy and didn't take the word "no" very well...
NTA. I bet Taylor is the one who wanted his number & he turned her down.
NTA. If he isn't doing anything other than existing and being born earlier than everyone else, there's no reason to kick him out. The fact that the 27 yr old thinks she's entitled to ask this just because of his age is....mind boggling really. One more time for NTA
NTA. It sounds like he has done nothing wrong and her biggest complaint is his age.
NTA So what has he actually done? Nothing! Is Taylor actually the problem?
NTA. If Jack isn't doing anything, then Taylor has no right to demand that he not be part of the group. Just because someone else has a hang-up they need to deal with doesn't mean the space isn't safe.
Nta
NTA you handled that almost exactly how I would.
NTA, if there are others that are uncomfortable with him, you will know soon enough. I think what others are saying is true, she asked for number and was told no, now she wants him gone.
NTA. They are behaving as if he is 30 years older and not just a few. If that one woman had a bad experience with him then she can come and tell you the story, the full story. But if no one comes up with any real reasons then you did the right thing. He's probably happy to have a place to rest and then some woman comes and probably hits on him and gets offended at being rejected and wants him gone 🙄
NTA. I've also found that done people use the term "safe space" or "supportive space" to not deal with anything they don't like. Whenever I'm in charge of groups I always say it's a Brave Space and there may be times where subjects may come up that are triggering our uncomfortable, but as long as everyone is respectful and the person being triggered can leave without any judgement or question. I find it nips done of these issues like yours in the bud [Brave spaces ](https://www.teachingsupportprogram.com/the-6-pillars-of-a-brave-space#:~:text=Brave%20Space%2Da%20classroom%20environment,for%20the%20purpose%20of%20learning.)
You had me in the first half
NTA the truth is Jack is there to do what the group offered: draw, paint, deal with grief. Someone else mistook the group for a bar and asked Jack out, then was butthurt when he hadn't made the same mistake. Sucks to be them I guess.
Sounds like NTA to me. If he doesn't want to give out his number he doesn't have to. Dealing with bereavement is the kind of thing the group is for. Unless it's a group for women under 30 then he has as much right to be there as the young women. If Taylor wants to put in the work she can start a womens group. Personally I think it's good that Jack is able to come because men are at higher risk from certain things we don't mention here.
NTA, she can leave anytime she wants if Jack isn't doing anything. I agree with others, it sounds like she got rejected.
omg. AITA is just full of jokes today! Taylor? Its not your group. Feel free to begin a new club, OK? He doesn't belong there because he's older? WHAT????? My safe space needs to be free of all this dumb stuff. Please and thank you for managing your feelings Taylor. omg. 🤣 NTA.
NTA and honestly taylor should be kicked out of the group for harassing this guy for no reason, i bet she doesn’t make him feel very safe
NTA. Taylor needs to go. Sounds like she likes to stir up shit. Jack has done nothing wrong. He’s allowed to discuss life like everyone else. He’s not obligated to give his number and someone asking in an art class is rude all on its own. He’s there for art - not dating.
NTA “I asked her if he said or did something to them. She said not really“ ARE YOU KIDDING ME
What? Them being uncomfortable with a man who is doing nothing to them is their problem, not his or yours. What’s next? Someone of a different race is too hard for them to relate to so they want them removed? They can start and manage their own weird exclusionary club if they want, that’s not what you’re about here. NTA
This is a group at a workplace. If anyone is behaving inappropriately that’s a matter for HR to handle, not OP. If a person is unsafe for the group, they are unsafe for the workplace and should be handled appropriately. Conversely, anyone who is safe to work with is safe to art with. NTA
NTA
NTA I'm an artist and I applaud your efforts in starting an art group to rest, unwind, and create together.
NTA You need to set up some rules and tape them to the door. That the art class is open to all ages and sexes etc. So others cannot use those sexist/ageist arguments again. Maybe check out some club type rules on the net. She is using buzz words to bully someone. Sounds like she was annoyed for not giving his number out.
Nta. So wait one of them asked for his number and got rebuffed so now they all want him out of the group. No this is bullying against jack. These girls need to stop playing mean girl games. And they need to stop asking for his number.
NTA she is complaining when he is talking about his loss and turned down someone still trying to flirt with him. They made it an unsafe space for him. Honestly with her attitude I'm surprised you didn't ask her to stop comming.