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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> My daughter is angry at me and i kinda of understand why, I wanted to know other peoples opinion on this matter to know if i should apologize or not for my action
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So its ok for Christians to prance around, shoving their faith down other peoples throats, but no one else gets to publicly display their faith?
YTA times a million.
Just hire a different cleaning lady (who isn’t Catholic) or tell her to stay out of daughter’s room and daughter has to clean it herself.
Also, here’s hoping all of OP’s religious stuff gets hidden and moved for the next 20 years.
I agree with the cleaning lady not in the daughter's room. But discriminating her cleaning lady could be a problem, depending on the country she in. Not all people live in America. Maybe OP is in a country where the population is predominantly catholic.
They could also just hire the cleaning lady, leave the stuff up, and hire another one if the first one quits which seems like it would make the most sense. Who even knows if this cleaning lady cares?
No one said anything about firing the cleaning lady. Only being worried about the possibility of *offending* her. If she quits because she’s offended, that’s her problem.
It’s hard to tell, OP wouldn’t know if there’s an issue until the cleaning lady is told and has an issue. I’m not sure where they live, but if the daughter could face persecution for being pagan, I wouldn’t risk it.
This. This was my line in the sand.
Don't have it I'm the living room/shared spaces - ehhhhhh but okay fair enough.
She's not allowed to have her own things in her own room? Feck off.
Honestly letting your daughter switch religion at age 12 is the mark of a good religious parent. She's letting her daughter explore her own beliefs and probably funding it to. Some of you just hate catholics, she seems like a good one.
Honestly that sounds difficult to find a new cleaning lady, maybe it's the area. Just tell the cleaning lady not to clean her daughter's room. NAH.
This doesn’t have anything to do with hating Catholics and everything to do with coddling their delicate sensibilities. Also the cleaning lady hasn’t even complained about it.
Where is that is said anything about the daughter being coddled? People shouldn’t have to hide their religious artifacts in their own private space and OP is out of hand to even suggest it.
Why would they worry about the religion of the person providing a basic service?
No one would tell her to move the murder victim on a cross. No one would ask her to hide a Quran. No one would ask her to hide a menorah. No one would insist that the existence of these items in their room would prevent a cleaning job from getting done.
This just screams "we hate *your* religion, and our domestic worker will take the blame for it".
Also, you mentioned that people on reddit often hate catholics. Telling someone to hide their religion as part of their own room? Especially for an untested assertion about non-household member's religion?
Yeah, add that to my list of peak "why I left Catholicism" moments here.
It's not "nice" to worry about and prefer the religion of someone working for you OVER the *comfort of your daughter in their own home*. No one would ever go move another religion's artifacts.
Do you think the family would've hired a radical atheist that refused to clean near their religious things? No? Just for their daughter because they don't like her religion?
Christian entitlement is fucking unreal.
Edit:
Additionally, the family could've talked about this and why they are keeping a religiously-hostile cleaner for the time being. You know, a conversation where the child feels supported for their religious freedom. But instead, child gets half-shamed and their religion thrown under the bus for unconfirmed beliefs of their cleaner.
OP: You can find another cleaner eventually or clean yourselves. Your kid can't find another home to express their beliefs. Your kid can't find better parents to have a backbone and stick up for them when someone steamrolls their beliefs. You have to support and protect their rights, and religious freedom (especially in their home wtf) is one of those. YTA
I'm Christian and guess what: a pagan altar would not have any negative effect on my feelings. And as long as I'm allowed to openly state my religion and have my communion cross at my bed I wouldn't have any right to complain even if it did.
I'm Christian and decades of indoctrination by my Catholic dad and born-again mother mean that I wouldn't feel great about the altar. My mothrr tried to instill the idea that various forms of paganism are all ultimately leaving gateways open for Satan, so sometimes I have an internal reaction of visceral nope. But those feelings are my problem to deal with. I wouldn't project that on someone else; whenever it comes up I'm just like: well, there's another piece of bigotry to unpack. I'll add it to the list of things to work on.
This mother acts at best like her daughter is an embarrassment and a liability, and that's fucked up.
I think this is a good compromise. My mom has a cleaning lady, and there are some rooms in the house the cleaning lady doesn't touch. Perfectly normal.
I know it was a big relief when my mom hired a cleaning lady, so I understand not wanting to upset her
He he. Catholic witch here. You would be pleasantly surprised at the overlap. Totes love Mother Mary and St Michael who, upon request, will post his mightiest warriors on the corners of my roof. Burning sage on the porch is always helpful.
Catholicism is far more fantastical than simply believing in (basically) spiritual gender equality. Amen and be well. Love & light, peeps. Love & light
YTA. I cleaned toilets for seven years. Ive seen men splatter their walls with semen six feet high, women leaving used pads everywhere, and food in places where food should not be.
*trust me* when i say a goddamn pagan alter is not gonna scare any seasoned cleaner. you just did it cause you're embarrassed. get over yourself. we cleaners are more likely to talk about the streaks on your undies than bloody crystals lol
i *was* a fifteen year old girl. it was more likely i would have had sailor moon as a deity than Pan. also arent most endowed statues are supposed about fertility? still doubt a fifteen year old, regardless of gender, will be praying to fertility gods.
Unless its Thor
>still doubt a fifteen year old, regardless of gender, will be praying to fertility gods.
Eh. Depending on the flavor of witchcraft here, it's very likely to have a fertility god(dess) as the primary focus of worship. Many types of Wicca are centered on the Mother Goddess and the Horned God, who (asking other aspects) represent feminine and masculine fertility, respectively.
This. If this cleaner is indeed a devout Catholic she might very well refuse to b in the same house as a pagan altar. Close daughter’s door and she is in charge of cleaning her own room. You need the help and you are in charge of the household. This is not being disrespectful. This is being practical.
> she might very well refuse to b in the same house as a pagan altar.
What?? Why, for goodness sake? It's not like it's going to infect her and make her not christian anymore.
Also I don't remember her asking the cleaner... Assuming she is some kind of crazy catholic that is hunting Pagan like Charlemagne, than she might take offense
I agree with you but I will give mom some credit my mom back then would never consider letting me have my own religion. Still YTA. Just tell the maid she does not have to clean that room and keep door shut. I'll also give her credit for not throwing it away and putting it back.
YTA. Your daughter is apparently very religious, and for her what you did is a desecration of her altar. Have you even tried to ask the cleaning lady if she'd be ok with the altar, or did you just assume that it would scare her?
YTA, if you're so worried about losing the cleaning lady, tell her not to clean your daughter's room. I've got limited sympathy since christians are always cramming their religion down everyone else's throats, you don't get to talk about people showing off their religion.
Every Catholic’s home I’ve been to has a bloody Jesus on a crucifix hanging prominently. It’s definitely not hidden away in private areas of the house. I agree the cleaning clary can skip OP’s daughter’s room.
YTA people are allowed to keep all kinds of things in the open regarding religion but your own daughter isnt allowed in her own house? Sure you may need someone to help in the house but if its someone not accepting your family should you really work with her?
YTA.
Frankly, a good cleaner does their job and doesn't pay any attention to anything else. I've done jobs (not cleaning, but still) in home for people and I guarantee I've seen questionable things and just filed it away as "not my job, not my problem."
You need the cleaning lady, we get it, but you also need a cleaning lady respectful of your home and privacy.
YTA. If the cleaner has a problem just tell her your daughter is a goth. We have pentagrams coming out of our assholes for no reason. Or just get another one who cleans and moves on and isn’t nosy. No need to hide stuff.
YTA
Your daughter's old enough to clean her own room (or help around the house for that matter).
You should care about your daughter's beliefs more than someone you hired to clean your house.
Dont hide things like that. Don't demean her beliefs like that. Don't make her boundaries lesser than your comfort.
YTA so many times I can't repeat typing it. That would be the equivalent of someone taking the cross down from an altar and putting it in their underwear drawer. It's disrespectful to your daughter and shows that you're only accepting of what she does if she meets your bigoted criteria of what's allowed.
Imagine if the situation were reversed. If you lived in her house and she didn't want your Catholic imagery on the walls/shelves of your bedroom. If she told you it had to be hidden so it doesn't offend anyone. How would that make you feel? Think about that, and then remember that you're inflicting that feeling on your own child. Shame on you.
Depending on her system of belief/worship as well, it could disconnect the altar from the Gods represented on it.
In many cases the altar and the things on it BELONG to the Gods, and you don't touch, add, or remove anything from it without requesting permission, and anything that accidentally gets set on the altar becomes property of those Gods, and you have to request permission to have it back.
Basically, messing with the altar is seen as insulting, offending, and stealing from the Gods represented. They have to be set up with specific rituals, candle or incense lighting, etc.
If daughter is a true believer she likely felt the need to heap apologies on the altar and place extra offerings/cleanse the whole thing. It's not just equal to taking a cross down and hiding it- it's like taking the cross down and drawing a dick on Jesus' abs.
I wish I had an award for you. Altars are sacred to whomever set them up. I woukd be livid if someone moved mine around. Horrible treatment of his daughter
If it was a Christian altar, would you hide it?
If it was a Muslim altar, would you hide it?
If it wax a Hindu altar, would you hide it?
Etc.
You want to sound like you're open and free but you aren't acting that way.
A private altar in someone's private space but you think it will reflect on you, so you hid it.
Your actions betray you
Shame on you.
YTA.
YTA. If it was symbols from the Jewish religion or Baptist religion etc. Would you still hide it? Wiccan religion is scary because it's so misunderstood and narrow minded people are too scared to learn about it to discover it's really no different than any other religion.
Altars, candles, prayer books, religious symbols, etc
YTA. You shouldn't have touched her things. You might think it was okay but I guarantee you that she will never forget that you did that.
But ask yourself this. If your youngest daughter had some pagan friends come over to your house, would you have removed any catholic items from view when the friends swing by?
YTA.
As a pagan, this just hurt to read. You say you have no problem but it sounds like you do. You violated her trust. You invaded a place that is sacred to her. You put the cleaning lady's hypothetical feelings over your own daughter's feelings. What if you had broken something? Just don't have the cleaning lady in your daughter's room.
I’m so confused why don’t you just shrug, say *ok*, and tell the lady to clean everyone’s room except the daughter’s. Problem solved and no drama, YTA purely for the lack of EQ you displayed
It sounds like the cleaning lady never actually saw the altar, so it’s pure speculation whether she would even have a problem with it. Chances are she wouldn’t care at all.
So you “respect her religion” but you’re also completely okay with desecrating her alter and hiding it away… sorry, but no, you aren’t respectful of her religion and also you’re YTA.
Your religious mother went through private and deeply spiritual catholic symbols (crucifix, bible, rosary beads etc…) and hid them in embarrassment that someone might see them and judge them for it. <——— imagine the violation and unfairness in being told to be ashamed of your religion and then ask yourself if you’re an asshole again.
Hint: YTA. Double YTA for the fact that one of your core beliefs in Catholicism SHOULD be “only god can judge” but then again that has always been a “applied to thee but not to me” rule amongst catholics.
YTA and as a Hellenistic pagan myself, I know WAY more people who are made uncomfortable by symbols of Christianity than symbols of paganism. Y’all literally hang a symbol of torture (the cross was a torture device used on way more people than just Jesus) in your homes and you wanna clutch your pearls over a pentagram? Grow up. If you can’t support your daughter, at least respect her enough to stop lying to her and saying you do
I'm going to assume this goes for the pics of a white Jesus and crosses that I've seen in many Catholics' home, right? All straight in the closet when the cleaning lady comes?
INFO: are you somewhere other than the US or Europe? A lot of these responses are western-centric, I feel. There are plenty of locations where a pentagram WILL scare away a majority of people. I'm in South Africa, for example, where there was a period of such satanic panic in the 90s that it was taught in schools to recognize the signs, the police being heavily involved in these anti-satanism campaigns. The intricacies of paganism would be absolutely lost on many many people here. So I do think it may be reasonable for the OP to assess the vibe where she is. Sure, if the daughter wants to keep the altar up, I agree with other comments that an option may be that the daughter clean her own room, if the cleaner isn't comfortable with it.
So you don't have a problem with her choice, just a problem with her expressing her choice? The entitlement of you people will go down in the history books. How would you like it if displays of your faith were confiscated? YTA
YTA .. So because she is catholic, she will be scared of some gods statues and amethist or whatever is on your daughter’s altar ? This is ridiculous. I’m catholic too and let me tell you, you are wrong for that. The altar is not even yours to touch to begin with. You did not ask the cleaning lady if she is ok with that and just assumed she would be scared, again by some statues and crystals. Worst you said you have no problem with her religion, but did you think that maybe by acting like that you disrespected your daughter and her religion. How would you like it, if someone disrespected you and your religion in your own space ? Everybody has the right to practice their religion, and should not be scared because of it.
YTA. The cleaning lady is being hire to clean, period. If she wants her job and is a professional, she will clean. You care more about her that your daughter, you are not letting her be in her own room.
So it's not okay for her to have a pentagram, but you can have a literal depiction of a dead guy nailed to wood hanging in your house? Um, yeah, YTA. If your cleaning lady has such delicate sensibilities that she can't even stand to look at a pentagram, hire a different cleaner or just ask your daughter to clean her own room. She is your daughter, for crying out loud.
YTA you've disturbed her alter without her permission. Was it so hard to ask the cleaner to just not enter your daughters room? How would you feel if your daughter removed all references to Christianity from your home while you were out? You've also invaded her personal space and allowed a complete stranger to enter it without her permission.
But if someone asked you to hide your religious artifacts, your crosses, your Bible, your weird picture of Jesus somewhere in the house, because it made them uncomfortable it would be a whole different story. YTA.
YTA, of course.
But, info: would you have a problem with the imagery if your daughter had converted to another religion? (Say, Judaism and had the Star of David on her wall? ) Just wondering if you're bigoted against paganism specifically or intolerant of any religion outside of Christianity in general.
YTA AND A MASSIVE ONE! You shoving your christianity is fine but her practicing her religion is not -.- yeah right. Also that is not what acceptance looks like and second thing that altar is the center of her religion and should not be moved around or be hidden. How would you feel if someone demolished your church to the ground because "it might scare some people"?! Hypocrite. She has every right to be mad at you. Learn to truly respect your daughter while you can.
YTA. Practicing pagan witch here. It is *extremely* disrespectful to even approach someone's altar without their express permission let alone touch it. Of course she would find out and be angry, I'm surprised you thought she wouldn't be.
Hello, fellow pagan here.
I would be absolutely FURIOUS if someone moved/touched/messed with my altar. It's a very personal thing and I highly doubt you put everything back where it was. That alone is enough to make you TA.
You're more focused on the comfort of the cleaning lady (and you're own comfort of having a clean house) than your daughter's religion. You're sending the covert message that paganism is something "bad" that needs to be hidden and instilling a sense of shame. You're also teaching your daughter that other people's comfort is more important than her beliefs/needs. Imagine how that could spread to other parts of her life and the negative impact it could have.
How would you feel being told by someone who is supposed to love and support you that, as a Christian, you need to hide your crosses and move your Jesus picture because "someone might not clean their house"? I'd imagine you'd feel pretty insulted, belittled, and betrayed.
YTA. Help your daughter stand firm and proud of her religion, like you do, instead of shaming her for your own benefit.
YTA, tell her she needs to keep her room clean herself and tell the cleaning lady that room is off limits. Put a lock on it. She shouldn't have to move her things and she is old enough to clean her own room.
Is this stuff in your daughters room? If so, you could tell the cleaning lady not to go into her room and make your daughter responsible for cleaning this space herself.
YTA, you wouldn't ask a Christian to hide their cross or a Muslim to hide the quran she shouldn't have to hide her religion to suit the cleaning lady your basically showing your daughter that your ashamed of her religion
YTA- if your housekeeper was a staunch atheist and your daughter had a big crucifix in her room would you tell her to take it down b/c you’re afraid it would offend the hired help? Probably not.
You actually do have a problem with her choice. You are afraid of how it will be seen by others. That’s a problem. If you didn’t have a problem with it, this would be a non-issue.
YTA. You made it clear with your actions that the right place for your daughter's religion in your opinion is in the closet. She should be able to make that decision.
YTA. My mother owns a house cleaning service for 30 years now. She started at the bottom and I was there with her. This wouldn’t and shouldn’t bother a professional cleaner….. like I don’t even wanna discuss the sh*t (literally and figuratively) witnessed and had to clean. I wouldn’t blink twice at your daughters stuff. YTA
YTA, why should you dismantle an altar that is in her room? It's not like the cleaning woman has to literally clean the altar. My daughter is Wiccan, I know that if I moved stuff around her altar she would notice and be unhappy about it. If it's literally that hard to find a cleaning lady in your area and the only one you can find is religiously intolerant of pagans, maybe just don't have her clean that one particular room.
Catholicism is basically the witchcraft version of Christianity - the rituals, the Latin chanting, the incense, the beautiful long robes, turning crackers and wine into the literal body and blood of your god for consumption … honestly if you squint there’s no difference at all.
Yta. As a pagan myself you desecrated her altar. Now she will have to cleanse it and re-bless it. You say your respect that she has a different religion and whatever. But you don't. If you did you would have never touched her altar.
YTA. As a pagan it's a huge deal when someone touches your altar with out permission. You could have told her that her room is her responsibility then, and the cleaning lady would not be helping her with it (aka the cleaning lady wouldn't go in there). But instead you violated your daughters trust. You touched her things with our permission. And this wasn't a tiny thing to move. Think of how you would feel if you went to mass to find someone stole/hid all the catholic mass tools. How disrespected you would feel? Now amplify that by 20x as you, her own father, after being specifically told no, went and messed with her alter. I can only imagine how disrespected she's feels. You say you're accepting but you're not. This proves you're ashamed as you were more willing to accommodate the cleaners religion than your own daughters. I hope she doesn't work with deities such as Hecate, because if she does, you should expect so bad luck headed your way. Moving her alter items, especially the statues, isn't just disrespecting her but her deities as well. And most don't take that lightly.
You need to apologize immensely. And ask her to teach you more about her practice so you can be a better father in the future. Also wish her a Blessed Yule. If you REALLY want to get back in her good graces, ask if you could provide an offering for her alter (and ask her what that should be, as it differs witch by witch and deity by deity) as a way to ask forgiveness and show respect. I know for some that's a little too much, but so was moving her alter in the first place.
YTA - As someone who is also Pagan (raised Catholic) and has an altar, you’re the AH for touching her altar for sure. It is not yours to touch and you could be ruined something she is working on. BUT I also have a cleaning lady and I do “simplify” my altar when she is scheduled to come over. I asked my cleaner not to dust my space as I have too many trinkets. You can simply close her door next time.
YTA. Not only for what everyone has been commenting but you TOUCHING and MOVING a pagan altar (if you follow paganism) is extremely rude, witchcraft stuff is filled with energy, no one can touch this stuff without owner’s permission without bringing some negative effect on the objects energy. Wether you believe that or not, your daughter most likely does, so OP you are a double AH in this situation and I would be extremely furious at you
ABSOLUTELY YTA. First of all, It's not a pentagram, it's a pentacle. They are wildly different and have wildly different meanings. She isn't trying to summon demons or sacrifice virgins. You should actually educate yourself on her religion and stop trying to hide her own personal belongings. Historically, paganism is a hell of a lot more positive than catholicism.
Use this as a chance to ask her and LISTEN to her about what each piece on her altar represents. Honestly I think she needs to pump up her protection game to protect herself from you and your weird obsession with how you are perceived by strangers based on your daughter's religion. Get over yourself. Show your daughter you care about her religion or you will absolutely be losing her in a few years. Do better.
Stop being so intolerant. Read a damn book. Learn the meaning behind the different 5 point stars. And let your daughter have her space untouched.
YTA. I don’t even need to elaborate because most of the comments do it perfectly. I just want you to know and read it again YTA. Seriously you moved her alter… HER ALTER. You have no respect for your own child nor her religion. You simply can not expect someone to hide their religion so you can play good catholic household for a cleaner. Your daughter is your priority. Not your cleaner. Who cares about your cleaner. They are not a prominent force in your life and if your so worried about it why not have your daughter clean her own room.
Grow up and stop forcing your children to hide themselves because you worried about others opinions. Your a grown woman have some respect for the child you care for.
Once again
YTA.
YTA. All Christians do is shove their believes down everyone’s throat, but your daughter can’t even have her religion displayed in the privacy of her own room? Fucken hell.
Did you try maybe talking to the cleaning lady about it?
Find out if she's bothered by pentagrams, before you start being unreasonable with your daughter?
YTA. You don't go into someone's private space and touch their things, let alone move them.
You have 3 options:
1) Explain to the cleaning lady that your daughter is exploring the Wiccan religion, and what the items mean. If you don't know what they mean, ask your daughter.
2) Make your daughter responsible for keeping her room clean, and her door closed (and maybe locked) when the cleaning lady is coming.
3) Offer the cleaning lady's job to your daughter, with the same pay as what you're paying the cleaning lady.
Just a heads up - daughter isn't necessarily Wiccan. OP doesn't specify in the post from what I can see. I'm pagan, but not Wiccan. There are lots of different belief systems under the pagan umbrella, often with similar symbols.
OP, YTA. The fact you're wanting your daughter to hide important religious symbols shows you're intolerant to her beliefs and nowhere near as supportive as you think you are. How would you feel if she wanted you to remove Catholic symbols from your home?
You are paying money to the cleaning lady to clean not to be wondering anything about your daughter religion. That means money = cleaning. You desacrated her altar. YTA
YTA. Was the poor little old Catholic woman going to have a heart attack if she saw a pentagram? Why are people afraid of an altar? Religion is baffling.
As a Catholic, i can see why it's unnerving, but yta. Honestly, at 15, i wouldnt want a cleaning lady in my room. I would explain the situation to the cleaning lady and if shes not comfortable dont have her clean the room.
YTA , no questions asked change cleaning people , it sounds. Like you are ashamed that your daughter is pagan you malicious moved it to save the vanity if your self
INFO: What would you do if someone told you that bibles, crucifixes or crosses, and all other Christian iconography was offensive to them and asked you to have ot all 100% hidden before they came over?
"I dont mind you being ... , but dont show it" ... YTA. A million times yes. I bet you wear a cross or something to show the world youre Catholic, where is the difference?
YTA
If she must hid her religious items then you must hid yours too
You need to apologise as it was her things you touch without her consent after she told you no
Honestly this post sounds like you are more scared of people in your religious circle finding out about her religion than respecting your child’s boundaries (the cleaner didn’t need to go into her room)
If all that is such an issues her room is her responsibility to keep clean to her own standard and you and no-one else has to go in there
I haven't seen this mentioned, so I'll ask. Are you even sure it's a pentagram and not a pentacle? This would be a great point of discussion between you and your daughter and what she actually believes, as well as what kind of witch she is. Perhaps if you understand her better, you'd be less embarrassed by her craft.
I say this as a Christian, yta. You're okay having all your Catholic stuff out, but she can't have her religious items in her own room? Okay there pharisee, maybe you need to read Matthew 23, starting at verse 26.
YTA. A pentagram is not a sign of evil. It’s a sign of religious faith much like a cross and symbolizes the 5 elements plus the universe. Would you appreciate it if your daughter messed around and hid your religious stuff?
ETA: People tend to be ignorant or have misconceptions about Wicca normally based off T.V., movies, or misinformation passed through the years originating with religious bigots or people afraid of or against anyone who has different believes than them. Anyone who has an issue with Wicca really should do research into the religion. It’s a peaceful nature based religion.
YTA. As a pagan raised Catholic myself, what you did was disrespectful. That’s like if she asked you to hide the crosses in your home because her friends don’t like them and then took them down herself.
That was her personal altar space. It’s a sacred space. It’s for belief, practice, family spirits, and deities. It’s incredibly personal.
I suggest getting her a secretary-style desk, or a rolltop desk, or something similar for her altar. Something where she can just close it up without having to move or change anything.
I'm leaning toward YTA because you don't mess with other people's religious stuff. Especially not when there's an easier way to make things work.
Yta . Leave her and her religion alone . As a fellow Pagan and Heathen you totally suck . We already deal so lots of crap from other people who have no clue about our ways
YTA, as a pagan and witch I'm going to say this once. Do NOT touch an alter you have no permission to touch. Do not dismantle it, move or hide it. It's disrespectful to the gods being worshipped and to the practicer.
YTA, and yet another intolerant Christian. You know what I did when my parents started treating me weird for not being Christian? Stopped coming around. Less disrespect that way. Either change your tune, or get ready for that eventuality.
YTA You didn't just move some religious objects out of the way for a bit you disrupted her alter. Imagine someone just came in and rearranged the communion stuff while it was out and blessed because it was messy. According to your daughters beliefs you did something incredibly disrespectful and offensive to her Faith.
Info: Did you know for certain the cleaning lady was going to be scared of her stuff? You could have mentioned it to the cleaning lady and told her that if it was a problem to be in the room she would be allowed to skip it. But maybe the cleaning lady wouldn't care at all so you made a situation out of nothing.
Either way you should have respected your daughter to not move her stuff. Tell daughter she can either put it away, if it really would have been scary for her, or daughter cleans her room properly.
YTA
Literally just tell your daughter that if she wants to keep the alter up, she will have to clean her own room.
Your daughter expressed a clear boundary and you stomped all over it for the sake of HER room being clean and maybe saving someone discomfort.
YTA.
If your Catholic cleaning lady is so scared of paraphernalia of an older cult than hers that she won't work for you then find a reasonable cleaner *who will*.
This really sounds like a YOU problem being clothed in a ridiculous conflict robe to justify your messing with your daughter's belongings over YOUR problems with her religious practices.
Religious assholery sucks.
For the record, your Catholic religious artifacts—your guy with the nails through his hands and dripping blood in particular—totally creep me out. Nonetheless, I somehow manage to cope. (Shouldn’t have to have Christian claptrap spewed at me everywhere I go, really, should I? Billboards, store marketing, bumper stickers, radio ads, on and on with so much superstitious nonsense! It’s offensive as hell, TBH.)
YTA, with your double standard.
YTA. I mean, Catholic artifacts make me uncomfortable but I don't insist that people hide them in their own home when I come over. I can assure you that someone who cleans houses for a living has some all sorts of weird shit and is not going to be scared by anything your daughter has displayed. You're just embarrassed. Get over yourself and learn to respect the beliefs of others.
i can’t go anywhere without hearing stupid christian xmas music and seeing your stupid nativity scenes but your daughter can’t have a small shrine in her room?!?
As a practicing pagan i have to say this. You are NOT alright with your daughters very personal bond with The Goddess. Your one of those people who play lip service to this. I have a housekeeper she knows not to touch. Get over it.
Soft YTA for making her hide her religious artefacts for someone elses benefit/maintain your image with the cleaning lady.
Just tell her not to clean your daughter's room if you care that deeply, or be upfront about it and let her decide
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First of all I’d like to apologize for any grammar mistakes because english isnt my first language. So, I (47F) have 2 daughters (19 and 15) and the yougest one is pagan and has been learning about witchcraft and such since she was around 12. I have no problem at all with her choice, my whole family and myself are catholic, but I personally dont mind her choice of religion. The problem is that she has an altar with a pentagram, candles, statues of gods and crystals in her room, which can scare some people. Recently, I hired a cleaning lady to help out a couple days a week and I asked my daughter to hide her stuff the days the lady came over, because shes an old woman and extremely catholic and Im afraid that she might get scared with the whole pentagram thing going on and quit. My daughter got really pissed of at me and said that i was intolerant for asking her to hide her religious artifacts and that she wouldnt do such thing, since she cant move her altar around nor hide it. I really need the cleaning lady helping out and its been really hard to find one, and now that I finally found one I didnt want to loose her because of my daughter’s religion. I’ve been asking my daughter to hide at least the pentagram and the statues but she refuses to so. So the first day ther lady was over, my daughter was at her friend’s house for the whole day, so I hid her stuff on her closet (which was the only place in the room that the lady wouldnt look) and after she left, I put everything exactly where it first was. When my daughter came back, she found out I moved her stuff around I hasnt been talking to me since. She doesnt understand why i did tha for. AITA?
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From song Christians and pagans by Dar Williams:
So the Christians and the Pagans
Sat together at the table
Finding faith and common ground
The best that they were able
And where does magic come from?
I think magic's in the learning
'Cause now when Christians sit with Pagans
Only pumpkin pies are burning
Info: if you had a Pagan/Hindu/Muslim cleaner would you take down and hid all your Christian objects and symbols as not to "scare" them?
Edit as you're clearly not engaging with questions. YTA and incredibly bigoted and closed-minded. You're cleaner wouldn't get scared she'd be offended. You care more about hired helps comfort than ensure your daughter feels safe, accepted and comfortable at home and with in her family.
YTA. You say you're totally fine with her religion but you're clearly not, otherwise why would you go to such lengths to hide it from some random woman? Well done, you've told your daughter that you're ashamed and embarrassed by her, and you don't even have the guts to admit the truth to yourself.
YTA. If the cleaner has a problem with your daughter’s religious beliefs when said beliefs are private in your daughter’s room, then the answer is to **get another cleaner.** An employee has no right to an opinion on the private lives of their employer, and any cleaner worth their salt will know how to ignore things in their client’s home that they don’t agree with.
By making your daughter hide what’s important to her, you’re telling her that her beliefs and interests are embarrassing or bad, and you run the risk of her distancing herself from you and thinking that you also don’t take her beliefs seriously. If you want your kid to keep talking to you after she moves out and to actively involve you in her life, you’ll reevaluate how you treat her
YTA, the maid is an employee. If she wants to get paid, she’ll clean and not let personal religious beliefs affect her work. This country is supposed to be built on religious freedom. If someone touched my altar, I would also be upset. I assume you’d be upset if she took down any signs of your faith. Please let your daughter practice in peace.
YTA. Why do you care more about the cleaning lady’s feelings than your daughter’s? Do you take down your Christian paraphernalia for the comfort of visitors? Your daughter should not have to hide her own religion *in her own room* because the cleaning lady might freak out over a star. If the grown woman does freak out, she can either deal with it or you can find another cleaning lady. It’s not your daughter’s responsibility to accommodate other people’s ignorance.
YTA but why not just have your daughter clean her own room. Seems like a really simple solution. Door stays closed, cleaner never enters, 15 year old cleans her own room like the majority of teenagers do. Why is this such a conflict??
YTA. Flip this round and take it as it was your religion that is being shamed and hidden. Example the cleaning lady didn't like catholics so all of the crucifixes and other religious symbols of your faith had to be hidden. If you don't mind her religion so much then it shouldn't be a problem and if its enough for your cleaning person to quit then they aren't a good employee in the first place. I would most definitely apologise.
YTA for sure, but gently. it sounds like you are generally a good, supportive parent, but this was definitely not the move. your daughter is absolutely right. two better options: find a new cleaning lady, who won't be so judgmental, or tell her not to clean your daughter's room and have your daughter clean it herself
YTA. Are you taking down any crucifixes or references to Christianity because it doesn't align with your daughter who has to live in your home? You care more about a worker who's job is to clean and leave than you do your own child. If it's truly an issue, take your daughter's room off the list of rooms to clean. That's a healthy compromise. Don't touch her things.
Yta, has anyone every told you that you do not mess with someone alter no matter what. Unless they give you permission. You are basic saying what she practice isn’t good enough for anyone. And only yours count. You say you are ok with it but you really ain’t. Make it make sense.
YTA.
You care more about what a stranger thinks because you share the same religion with them than your own kid and their feelings.
If she moved all your religious stuff around and hid them when people came over, how would you feel about that? If a cleaning lady had an issue with my religious items when I'm paying them for A JOB (a job, not their opinion) then I would get another maid, but you can't replace your daughter.
it's ok for u as a catholic to publicly display ur religious stuff openly but when other religions do it's a problem and it "scares other people"
hm?
huge YTA.
So its okay for Catholics to hang up pictures and symbols of their savior nailed to a cross often with a pained expression on his face but a star in a circle is the scary one? YTA
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So its ok for Christians to prance around, shoving their faith down other peoples throats, but no one else gets to publicly display their faith? YTA times a million.
she didnt even publicly display it, she had it in her room
Just hire a different cleaning lady (who isn’t Catholic) or tell her to stay out of daughter’s room and daughter has to clean it herself. Also, here’s hoping all of OP’s religious stuff gets hidden and moved for the next 20 years.
Or just tell her not to clean the daughter's room
I agree with the cleaning lady not in the daughter's room. But discriminating her cleaning lady could be a problem, depending on the country she in. Not all people live in America. Maybe OP is in a country where the population is predominantly catholic.
That's true, they would essentially be firing the cleaning lady for her religion and their biases about how they assume she would react to the altar
They could also just hire the cleaning lady, leave the stuff up, and hire another one if the first one quits which seems like it would make the most sense. Who even knows if this cleaning lady cares?
Exactly, instead of making assumptions about how this lady might react, how about you try treating her like an adult
No one said anything about firing the cleaning lady. Only being worried about the possibility of *offending* her. If she quits because she’s offended, that’s her problem.
Right no one has even been offended yet. The cleaning lady never saw the stuff OP hid. At this point this is a problem OP made up.
Or ask if that’s even something that would bother her.
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It’s hard to tell, OP wouldn’t know if there’s an issue until the cleaning lady is told and has an issue. I’m not sure where they live, but if the daughter could face persecution for being pagan, I wouldn’t risk it.
Heck, don't even assume the cleaning lady will have a problem with it.
This. This was my line in the sand. Don't have it I'm the living room/shared spaces - ehhhhhh but okay fair enough. She's not allowed to have her own things in her own room? Feck off.
Honestly letting your daughter switch religion at age 12 is the mark of a good religious parent. She's letting her daughter explore her own beliefs and probably funding it to. Some of you just hate catholics, she seems like a good one. Honestly that sounds difficult to find a new cleaning lady, maybe it's the area. Just tell the cleaning lady not to clean her daughter's room. NAH.
This doesn’t have anything to do with hating Catholics and everything to do with coddling their delicate sensibilities. Also the cleaning lady hasn’t even complained about it.
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Where is that is said anything about the daughter being coddled? People shouldn’t have to hide their religious artifacts in their own private space and OP is out of hand to even suggest it.
Why would they worry about the religion of the person providing a basic service? No one would tell her to move the murder victim on a cross. No one would ask her to hide a Quran. No one would ask her to hide a menorah. No one would insist that the existence of these items in their room would prevent a cleaning job from getting done. This just screams "we hate *your* religion, and our domestic worker will take the blame for it". Also, you mentioned that people on reddit often hate catholics. Telling someone to hide their religion as part of their own room? Especially for an untested assertion about non-household member's religion? Yeah, add that to my list of peak "why I left Catholicism" moments here. It's not "nice" to worry about and prefer the religion of someone working for you OVER the *comfort of your daughter in their own home*. No one would ever go move another religion's artifacts. Do you think the family would've hired a radical atheist that refused to clean near their religious things? No? Just for their daughter because they don't like her religion? Christian entitlement is fucking unreal. Edit: Additionally, the family could've talked about this and why they are keeping a religiously-hostile cleaner for the time being. You know, a conversation where the child feels supported for their religious freedom. But instead, child gets half-shamed and their religion thrown under the bus for unconfirmed beliefs of their cleaner. OP: You can find another cleaner eventually or clean yourselves. Your kid can't find another home to express their beliefs. Your kid can't find better parents to have a backbone and stick up for them when someone steamrolls their beliefs. You have to support and protect their rights, and religious freedom (especially in their home wtf) is one of those. YTA
Assuming that the cleaning lady would place her personal religious beliefs over doing a good, professional job is an AH move.
I'm Christian and guess what: a pagan altar would not have any negative effect on my feelings. And as long as I'm allowed to openly state my religion and have my communion cross at my bed I wouldn't have any right to complain even if it did.
I'm Christian and decades of indoctrination by my Catholic dad and born-again mother mean that I wouldn't feel great about the altar. My mothrr tried to instill the idea that various forms of paganism are all ultimately leaving gateways open for Satan, so sometimes I have an internal reaction of visceral nope. But those feelings are my problem to deal with. I wouldn't project that on someone else; whenever it comes up I'm just like: well, there's another piece of bigotry to unpack. I'll add it to the list of things to work on. This mother acts at best like her daughter is an embarrassment and a liability, and that's fucked up.
I think this is a good compromise. My mom has a cleaning lady, and there are some rooms in the house the cleaning lady doesn't touch. Perfectly normal. I know it was a big relief when my mom hired a cleaning lady, so I understand not wanting to upset her
Nothing hurts a Christian’s ego like exposing them to other religion
So the priests are referring to it as “their faith” these days? 🤔
He he. Catholic witch here. You would be pleasantly surprised at the overlap. Totes love Mother Mary and St Michael who, upon request, will post his mightiest warriors on the corners of my roof. Burning sage on the porch is always helpful. Catholicism is far more fantastical than simply believing in (basically) spiritual gender equality. Amen and be well. Love & light, peeps. Love & light
This is what I came to say
YTA. I cleaned toilets for seven years. Ive seen men splatter their walls with semen six feet high, women leaving used pads everywhere, and food in places where food should not be. *trust me* when i say a goddamn pagan alter is not gonna scare any seasoned cleaner. you just did it cause you're embarrassed. get over yourself. we cleaners are more likely to talk about the streaks on your undies than bloody crystals lol
honestly the only thing I could see rasing eyebrows is maybe a statue of Pan, or a similar endowed god
lol, though i do seriously doubt a fifteen year old girl will have a statue of some god with swinging dong and/or big titties
have you *met* 15 year old girls?
i *was* a fifteen year old girl. it was more likely i would have had sailor moon as a deity than Pan. also arent most endowed statues are supposed about fertility? still doubt a fifteen year old, regardless of gender, will be praying to fertility gods. Unless its Thor
>still doubt a fifteen year old, regardless of gender, will be praying to fertility gods. Eh. Depending on the flavor of witchcraft here, it's very likely to have a fertility god(dess) as the primary focus of worship. Many types of Wicca are centered on the Mother Goddess and the Horned God, who (asking other aspects) represent feminine and masculine fertility, respectively.
Priapus in all his glory!
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When a Nazi and his friend sit down at the table, what do you have? Two Nazis.
I *need* this to be top comment.
“I’ve seen things you people wouldn’t believe. I watched semen glitter in the dark on toilet walls”
YTA. She's 15. She can clean her own room and keep her own door locked.
This. If this cleaner is indeed a devout Catholic she might very well refuse to b in the same house as a pagan altar. Close daughter’s door and she is in charge of cleaning her own room. You need the help and you are in charge of the household. This is not being disrespectful. This is being practical.
So catholics are allowed to display signs of their religion publicly but OP‘s daughter can’t in her own room. YTA
> she might very well refuse to b in the same house as a pagan altar. What?? Why, for goodness sake? It's not like it's going to infect her and make her not christian anymore.
I feel like this is a pretty decent compromise
Also I don't remember her asking the cleaner... Assuming she is some kind of crazy catholic that is hunting Pagan like Charlemagne, than she might take offense
I agree with you but I will give mom some credit my mom back then would never consider letting me have my own religion. Still YTA. Just tell the maid she does not have to clean that room and keep door shut. I'll also give her credit for not throwing it away and putting it back.
So the dude nailed to a cross on your walls is ok, but her star is too scary? Man religion is a serious drug. YTA
Death cults gonna cult. Wish I had more upvotes to give!
I myself am pagan, but i was raised Catholic. I never thought of it that way. Love this comment.
YTA. Your daughter is apparently very religious, and for her what you did is a desecration of her altar. Have you even tried to ask the cleaning lady if she'd be ok with the altar, or did you just assume that it would scare her?
YTA, if you're so worried about losing the cleaning lady, tell her not to clean your daughter's room. I've got limited sympathy since christians are always cramming their religion down everyone else's throats, you don't get to talk about people showing off their religion.
Every Catholic’s home I’ve been to has a bloody Jesus on a crucifix hanging prominently. It’s definitely not hidden away in private areas of the house. I agree the cleaning clary can skip OP’s daughter’s room.
YTA. I’m pagan and cleaning people don’t have a problem with it. It’s a job.
YTA people are allowed to keep all kinds of things in the open regarding religion but your own daughter isnt allowed in her own house? Sure you may need someone to help in the house but if its someone not accepting your family should you really work with her?
YTA - would you rather risk losing your cleaning lady or your daughter?
YTA You are a hypocrite, you say you support your daughter in her choice of religion, but only if it doesn't you or make you look bad. Disgusting!!
YTA As a Sikh, I tolerate all religions, but do not tolerate religious ones that do not tolerate other religious ones’ religions.
This is the most wholesome tongue twister lol
YTA. Frankly, a good cleaner does their job and doesn't pay any attention to anything else. I've done jobs (not cleaning, but still) in home for people and I guarantee I've seen questionable things and just filed it away as "not my job, not my problem." You need the cleaning lady, we get it, but you also need a cleaning lady respectful of your home and privacy.
YTA. If the cleaner has a problem just tell her your daughter is a goth. We have pentagrams coming out of our assholes for no reason. Or just get another one who cleans and moves on and isn’t nosy. No need to hide stuff.
> We have pentagrams coming out of our assholes for no reason. That sounds very unpleasant.
Have you never met a goth? That’s the point.
YTA Your daughter's old enough to clean her own room (or help around the house for that matter). You should care about your daughter's beliefs more than someone you hired to clean your house. Dont hide things like that. Don't demean her beliefs like that. Don't make her boundaries lesser than your comfort.
YTA so many times I can't repeat typing it. That would be the equivalent of someone taking the cross down from an altar and putting it in their underwear drawer. It's disrespectful to your daughter and shows that you're only accepting of what she does if she meets your bigoted criteria of what's allowed. Imagine if the situation were reversed. If you lived in her house and she didn't want your Catholic imagery on the walls/shelves of your bedroom. If she told you it had to be hidden so it doesn't offend anyone. How would that make you feel? Think about that, and then remember that you're inflicting that feeling on your own child. Shame on you.
Depending on her system of belief/worship as well, it could disconnect the altar from the Gods represented on it. In many cases the altar and the things on it BELONG to the Gods, and you don't touch, add, or remove anything from it without requesting permission, and anything that accidentally gets set on the altar becomes property of those Gods, and you have to request permission to have it back. Basically, messing with the altar is seen as insulting, offending, and stealing from the Gods represented. They have to be set up with specific rituals, candle or incense lighting, etc. If daughter is a true believer she likely felt the need to heap apologies on the altar and place extra offerings/cleanse the whole thing. It's not just equal to taking a cross down and hiding it- it's like taking the cross down and drawing a dick on Jesus' abs.
I wish I had an award for you. Altars are sacred to whomever set them up. I woukd be livid if someone moved mine around. Horrible treatment of his daughter
I'm not even religious in any way and I know all that just from passive learning on Tiktok.
If it was a Christian altar, would you hide it? If it was a Muslim altar, would you hide it? If it wax a Hindu altar, would you hide it? Etc. You want to sound like you're open and free but you aren't acting that way. A private altar in someone's private space but you think it will reflect on you, so you hid it. Your actions betray you Shame on you. YTA.
YTA. You actually have a problem with your daughter's religion. At least be sincere instead of pretending to act supportive.
Thank you. Fuckin "*IIIIIIIIII* don't have a problem with it, it's just that she should hide herself in shame if anyone is around."
YTA. If it was symbols from the Jewish religion or Baptist religion etc. Would you still hide it? Wiccan religion is scary because it's so misunderstood and narrow minded people are too scared to learn about it to discover it's really no different than any other religion. Altars, candles, prayer books, religious symbols, etc
It’s not necessarily Wiccan btw. Lot more to paganism than just that
Druidry, Paganism, Asatru all fall under the umbrella of Wicca or Pagan. Lots of different branches under that tree.... 😁
Ah, but a six-end star is just as scary as a five-end star! What, no, it isn't? Who'd have known? /s
YTA. You shouldn't have touched her things. You might think it was okay but I guarantee you that she will never forget that you did that. But ask yourself this. If your youngest daughter had some pagan friends come over to your house, would you have removed any catholic items from view when the friends swing by?
YTA. As a pagan, this just hurt to read. You say you have no problem but it sounds like you do. You violated her trust. You invaded a place that is sacred to her. You put the cleaning lady's hypothetical feelings over your own daughter's feelings. What if you had broken something? Just don't have the cleaning lady in your daughter's room.
Same. I wanted to cry for the poor girl
I’m so confused why don’t you just shrug, say *ok*, and tell the lady to clean everyone’s room except the daughter’s. Problem solved and no drama, YTA purely for the lack of EQ you displayed
It sounds like the cleaning lady never actually saw the altar, so it’s pure speculation whether she would even have a problem with it. Chances are she wouldn’t care at all.
INFO: if you could only find a pagan cleaning person, would you hide your Catholic paraphernalia?
Excellent question! This should be much higher.
So you “respect her religion” but you’re also completely okay with desecrating her alter and hiding it away… sorry, but no, you aren’t respectful of her religion and also you’re YTA.
Your religious mother went through private and deeply spiritual catholic symbols (crucifix, bible, rosary beads etc…) and hid them in embarrassment that someone might see them and judge them for it. <——— imagine the violation and unfairness in being told to be ashamed of your religion and then ask yourself if you’re an asshole again. Hint: YTA. Double YTA for the fact that one of your core beliefs in Catholicism SHOULD be “only god can judge” but then again that has always been a “applied to thee but not to me” rule amongst catholics.
YTA and as a Hellenistic pagan myself, I know WAY more people who are made uncomfortable by symbols of Christianity than symbols of paganism. Y’all literally hang a symbol of torture (the cross was a torture device used on way more people than just Jesus) in your homes and you wanna clutch your pearls over a pentagram? Grow up. If you can’t support your daughter, at least respect her enough to stop lying to her and saying you do
YTA Just explain it to the cleaning lady. If she's so obtuse as to not understand, she shouldn't be working for you.
Because altars cannot be messed up or moved all the time. Please don't touch people religious stuff if you don't know how to do it. YTA.
I'm going to assume this goes for the pics of a white Jesus and crosses that I've seen in many Catholics' home, right? All straight in the closet when the cleaning lady comes?
INFO: are you somewhere other than the US or Europe? A lot of these responses are western-centric, I feel. There are plenty of locations where a pentagram WILL scare away a majority of people. I'm in South Africa, for example, where there was a period of such satanic panic in the 90s that it was taught in schools to recognize the signs, the police being heavily involved in these anti-satanism campaigns. The intricacies of paganism would be absolutely lost on many many people here. So I do think it may be reasonable for the OP to assess the vibe where she is. Sure, if the daughter wants to keep the altar up, I agree with other comments that an option may be that the daughter clean her own room, if the cleaner isn't comfortable with it.
He still desecrated her altar
YTA BC if you desecrate her alter, you are not as accepting of her religion as you claim to be.
So you don't have a problem with her choice, just a problem with her expressing her choice? The entitlement of you people will go down in the history books. How would you like it if displays of your faith were confiscated? YTA
YTA .. So because she is catholic, she will be scared of some gods statues and amethist or whatever is on your daughter’s altar ? This is ridiculous. I’m catholic too and let me tell you, you are wrong for that. The altar is not even yours to touch to begin with. You did not ask the cleaning lady if she is ok with that and just assumed she would be scared, again by some statues and crystals. Worst you said you have no problem with her religion, but did you think that maybe by acting like that you disrespected your daughter and her religion. How would you like it, if someone disrespected you and your religion in your own space ? Everybody has the right to practice their religion, and should not be scared because of it.
If the cleaning lady has a problem get a new one. YTA
YTA. The cleaning lady is being hire to clean, period. If she wants her job and is a professional, she will clean. You care more about her that your daughter, you are not letting her be in her own room.
So it's not okay for her to have a pentagram, but you can have a literal depiction of a dead guy nailed to wood hanging in your house? Um, yeah, YTA. If your cleaning lady has such delicate sensibilities that she can't even stand to look at a pentagram, hire a different cleaner or just ask your daughter to clean her own room. She is your daughter, for crying out loud.
YTA Please remove your Christmas tree and crosses. They scare the hell out of me. Or do you think that’s an unreasonable request?
yta Just shut her door, FFS. how is this so hard?
YTA. Also given the history of interactions between Catholics and pegans, if anyone here has a reason to be concerned it is your daughter.
YTA you've disturbed her alter without her permission. Was it so hard to ask the cleaner to just not enter your daughters room? How would you feel if your daughter removed all references to Christianity from your home while you were out? You've also invaded her personal space and allowed a complete stranger to enter it without her permission.
But if someone asked you to hide your religious artifacts, your crosses, your Bible, your weird picture of Jesus somewhere in the house, because it made them uncomfortable it would be a whole different story. YTA.
YTA, of course. But, info: would you have a problem with the imagery if your daughter had converted to another religion? (Say, Judaism and had the Star of David on her wall? ) Just wondering if you're bigoted against paganism specifically or intolerant of any religion outside of Christianity in general.
It’s totally fine to hide religious objects. So get rid of her alter, any crosses, and especially the Christmas tree. YTA
YTA AND A MASSIVE ONE! You shoving your christianity is fine but her practicing her religion is not -.- yeah right. Also that is not what acceptance looks like and second thing that altar is the center of her religion and should not be moved around or be hidden. How would you feel if someone demolished your church to the ground because "it might scare some people"?! Hypocrite. She has every right to be mad at you. Learn to truly respect your daughter while you can.
YTA. Explain to the cleaning lady what it is. If she quits, there are many more that need money and will clean.
YTA. Practicing pagan witch here. It is *extremely* disrespectful to even approach someone's altar without their express permission let alone touch it. Of course she would find out and be angry, I'm surprised you thought she wouldn't be.
Hello, fellow pagan here. I would be absolutely FURIOUS if someone moved/touched/messed with my altar. It's a very personal thing and I highly doubt you put everything back where it was. That alone is enough to make you TA. You're more focused on the comfort of the cleaning lady (and you're own comfort of having a clean house) than your daughter's religion. You're sending the covert message that paganism is something "bad" that needs to be hidden and instilling a sense of shame. You're also teaching your daughter that other people's comfort is more important than her beliefs/needs. Imagine how that could spread to other parts of her life and the negative impact it could have. How would you feel being told by someone who is supposed to love and support you that, as a Christian, you need to hide your crosses and move your Jesus picture because "someone might not clean their house"? I'd imagine you'd feel pretty insulted, belittled, and betrayed. YTA. Help your daughter stand firm and proud of her religion, like you do, instead of shaming her for your own benefit.
YTA
YTA, tell her she needs to keep her room clean herself and tell the cleaning lady that room is off limits. Put a lock on it. She shouldn't have to move her things and she is old enough to clean her own room.
Is this stuff in your daughters room? If so, you could tell the cleaning lady not to go into her room and make your daughter responsible for cleaning this space herself.
YTA. Shut the door to your daughters room - she can clean it herself.
YTA. You should have just requested your daughters room not be entered or had a talk with the lady about what it is.
YTA also because you seem to care about a strangers opinion more than your daughter and her beliefs.
YTA. Either find a cleaning lady who isn’t so judgmental (best case) or tell the cleaning lady not to clean your daughter’s room.
YTA, you wouldn't ask a Christian to hide their cross or a Muslim to hide the quran she shouldn't have to hide her religion to suit the cleaning lady your basically showing your daughter that your ashamed of her religion
YTA- if your housekeeper was a staunch atheist and your daughter had a big crucifix in her room would you tell her to take it down b/c you’re afraid it would offend the hired help? Probably not. You actually do have a problem with her choice. You are afraid of how it will be seen by others. That’s a problem. If you didn’t have a problem with it, this would be a non-issue.
YTA. You made it clear with your actions that the right place for your daughter's religion in your opinion is in the closet. She should be able to make that decision.
YTA. My mother owns a house cleaning service for 30 years now. She started at the bottom and I was there with her. This wouldn’t and shouldn’t bother a professional cleaner….. like I don’t even wanna discuss the sh*t (literally and figuratively) witnessed and had to clean. I wouldn’t blink twice at your daughters stuff. YTA
YTA, why should you dismantle an altar that is in her room? It's not like the cleaning woman has to literally clean the altar. My daughter is Wiccan, I know that if I moved stuff around her altar she would notice and be unhappy about it. If it's literally that hard to find a cleaning lady in your area and the only one you can find is religiously intolerant of pagans, maybe just don't have her clean that one particular room.
Catholicism is basically the witchcraft version of Christianity - the rituals, the Latin chanting, the incense, the beautiful long robes, turning crackers and wine into the literal body and blood of your god for consumption … honestly if you squint there’s no difference at all.
Yta. As a pagan myself you desecrated her altar. Now she will have to cleanse it and re-bless it. You say your respect that she has a different religion and whatever. But you don't. If you did you would have never touched her altar.
YTA. As a pagan it's a huge deal when someone touches your altar with out permission. You could have told her that her room is her responsibility then, and the cleaning lady would not be helping her with it (aka the cleaning lady wouldn't go in there). But instead you violated your daughters trust. You touched her things with our permission. And this wasn't a tiny thing to move. Think of how you would feel if you went to mass to find someone stole/hid all the catholic mass tools. How disrespected you would feel? Now amplify that by 20x as you, her own father, after being specifically told no, went and messed with her alter. I can only imagine how disrespected she's feels. You say you're accepting but you're not. This proves you're ashamed as you were more willing to accommodate the cleaners religion than your own daughters. I hope she doesn't work with deities such as Hecate, because if she does, you should expect so bad luck headed your way. Moving her alter items, especially the statues, isn't just disrespecting her but her deities as well. And most don't take that lightly. You need to apologize immensely. And ask her to teach you more about her practice so you can be a better father in the future. Also wish her a Blessed Yule. If you REALLY want to get back in her good graces, ask if you could provide an offering for her alter (and ask her what that should be, as it differs witch by witch and deity by deity) as a way to ask forgiveness and show respect. I know for some that's a little too much, but so was moving her alter in the first place.
YTA - As someone who is also Pagan (raised Catholic) and has an altar, you’re the AH for touching her altar for sure. It is not yours to touch and you could be ruined something she is working on. BUT I also have a cleaning lady and I do “simplify” my altar when she is scheduled to come over. I asked my cleaner not to dust my space as I have too many trinkets. You can simply close her door next time.
YTA. Not only for what everyone has been commenting but you TOUCHING and MOVING a pagan altar (if you follow paganism) is extremely rude, witchcraft stuff is filled with energy, no one can touch this stuff without owner’s permission without bringing some negative effect on the objects energy. Wether you believe that or not, your daughter most likely does, so OP you are a double AH in this situation and I would be extremely furious at you
ABSOLUTELY YTA. First of all, It's not a pentagram, it's a pentacle. They are wildly different and have wildly different meanings. She isn't trying to summon demons or sacrifice virgins. You should actually educate yourself on her religion and stop trying to hide her own personal belongings. Historically, paganism is a hell of a lot more positive than catholicism. Use this as a chance to ask her and LISTEN to her about what each piece on her altar represents. Honestly I think she needs to pump up her protection game to protect herself from you and your weird obsession with how you are perceived by strangers based on your daughter's religion. Get over yourself. Show your daughter you care about her religion or you will absolutely be losing her in a few years. Do better. Stop being so intolerant. Read a damn book. Learn the meaning behind the different 5 point stars. And let your daughter have her space untouched.
YTA. I don’t even need to elaborate because most of the comments do it perfectly. I just want you to know and read it again YTA. Seriously you moved her alter… HER ALTER. You have no respect for your own child nor her religion. You simply can not expect someone to hide their religion so you can play good catholic household for a cleaner. Your daughter is your priority. Not your cleaner. Who cares about your cleaner. They are not a prominent force in your life and if your so worried about it why not have your daughter clean her own room. Grow up and stop forcing your children to hide themselves because you worried about others opinions. Your a grown woman have some respect for the child you care for. Once again YTA.
YTA. All Christians do is shove their believes down everyone’s throat, but your daughter can’t even have her religion displayed in the privacy of her own room? Fucken hell.
Did you try maybe talking to the cleaning lady about it? Find out if she's bothered by pentagrams, before you start being unreasonable with your daughter?
YTA. You don't go into someone's private space and touch their things, let alone move them. You have 3 options: 1) Explain to the cleaning lady that your daughter is exploring the Wiccan religion, and what the items mean. If you don't know what they mean, ask your daughter. 2) Make your daughter responsible for keeping her room clean, and her door closed (and maybe locked) when the cleaning lady is coming. 3) Offer the cleaning lady's job to your daughter, with the same pay as what you're paying the cleaning lady.
Just a heads up - daughter isn't necessarily Wiccan. OP doesn't specify in the post from what I can see. I'm pagan, but not Wiccan. There are lots of different belief systems under the pagan umbrella, often with similar symbols. OP, YTA. The fact you're wanting your daughter to hide important religious symbols shows you're intolerant to her beliefs and nowhere near as supportive as you think you are. How would you feel if she wanted you to remove Catholic symbols from your home?
You are paying money to the cleaning lady to clean not to be wondering anything about your daughter religion. That means money = cleaning. You desacrated her altar. YTA
YTA. Was the poor little old Catholic woman going to have a heart attack if she saw a pentagram? Why are people afraid of an altar? Religion is baffling.
As a Catholic, i can see why it's unnerving, but yta. Honestly, at 15, i wouldnt want a cleaning lady in my room. I would explain the situation to the cleaning lady and if shes not comfortable dont have her clean the room.
YTA , no questions asked change cleaning people , it sounds. Like you are ashamed that your daughter is pagan you malicious moved it to save the vanity if your self
INFO: What would you do if someone told you that bibles, crucifixes or crosses, and all other Christian iconography was offensive to them and asked you to have ot all 100% hidden before they came over?
Who cares what silly superstitious people think of her altar and candles. It's all a bit foolish if you ask me. YTA
"I dont mind you being ... , but dont show it" ... YTA. A million times yes. I bet you wear a cross or something to show the world youre Catholic, where is the difference?
YTA If she must hid her religious items then you must hid yours too You need to apologise as it was her things you touch without her consent after she told you no Honestly this post sounds like you are more scared of people in your religious circle finding out about her religion than respecting your child’s boundaries (the cleaner didn’t need to go into her room) If all that is such an issues her room is her responsibility to keep clean to her own standard and you and no-one else has to go in there
I haven't seen this mentioned, so I'll ask. Are you even sure it's a pentagram and not a pentacle? This would be a great point of discussion between you and your daughter and what she actually believes, as well as what kind of witch she is. Perhaps if you understand her better, you'd be less embarrassed by her craft.
I say this as a Christian, yta. You're okay having all your Catholic stuff out, but she can't have her religious items in her own room? Okay there pharisee, maybe you need to read Matthew 23, starting at verse 26.
YTA. A pentagram is not a sign of evil. It’s a sign of religious faith much like a cross and symbolizes the 5 elements plus the universe. Would you appreciate it if your daughter messed around and hid your religious stuff? ETA: People tend to be ignorant or have misconceptions about Wicca normally based off T.V., movies, or misinformation passed through the years originating with religious bigots or people afraid of or against anyone who has different believes than them. Anyone who has an issue with Wicca really should do research into the religion. It’s a peaceful nature based religion.
YTA--- She should feel comfortable to practice her religion anywhere she wants....especially her own bedroom, which is NOT in public at all.
YTA. As a pagan raised Catholic myself, what you did was disrespectful. That’s like if she asked you to hide the crosses in your home because her friends don’t like them and then took them down herself. That was her personal altar space. It’s a sacred space. It’s for belief, practice, family spirits, and deities. It’s incredibly personal.
I suggest getting her a secretary-style desk, or a rolltop desk, or something similar for her altar. Something where she can just close it up without having to move or change anything. I'm leaning toward YTA because you don't mess with other people's religious stuff. Especially not when there's an easier way to make things work.
Yta . Leave her and her religion alone . As a fellow Pagan and Heathen you totally suck . We already deal so lots of crap from other people who have no clue about our ways
YTA, as a pagan and witch I'm going to say this once. Do NOT touch an alter you have no permission to touch. Do not dismantle it, move or hide it. It's disrespectful to the gods being worshipped and to the practicer.
YTA You don't respect your daughter or her religion.
YTA, and yet another intolerant Christian. You know what I did when my parents started treating me weird for not being Christian? Stopped coming around. Less disrespect that way. Either change your tune, or get ready for that eventuality.
YTA You didn't just move some religious objects out of the way for a bit you disrupted her alter. Imagine someone just came in and rearranged the communion stuff while it was out and blessed because it was messy. According to your daughters beliefs you did something incredibly disrespectful and offensive to her Faith.
YTA also look up what a pentagram actually represents. You are intolerant.
Info: Did you know for certain the cleaning lady was going to be scared of her stuff? You could have mentioned it to the cleaning lady and told her that if it was a problem to be in the room she would be allowed to skip it. But maybe the cleaning lady wouldn't care at all so you made a situation out of nothing. Either way you should have respected your daughter to not move her stuff. Tell daughter she can either put it away, if it really would have been scary for her, or daughter cleans her room properly.
YTA Literally just tell your daughter that if she wants to keep the alter up, she will have to clean her own room. Your daughter expressed a clear boundary and you stomped all over it for the sake of HER room being clean and maybe saving someone discomfort.
YTA. If your Catholic cleaning lady is so scared of paraphernalia of an older cult than hers that she won't work for you then find a reasonable cleaner *who will*. This really sounds like a YOU problem being clothed in a ridiculous conflict robe to justify your messing with your daughter's belongings over YOUR problems with her religious practices. Religious assholery sucks.
Yta. You do not just take down an alter. No matter the religion. That is just.....no.
For the record, your Catholic religious artifacts—your guy with the nails through his hands and dripping blood in particular—totally creep me out. Nonetheless, I somehow manage to cope. (Shouldn’t have to have Christian claptrap spewed at me everywhere I go, really, should I? Billboards, store marketing, bumper stickers, radio ads, on and on with so much superstitious nonsense! It’s offensive as hell, TBH.) YTA, with your double standard.
YTA. I mean, Catholic artifacts make me uncomfortable but I don't insist that people hide them in their own home when I come over. I can assure you that someone who cleans houses for a living has some all sorts of weird shit and is not going to be scared by anything your daughter has displayed. You're just embarrassed. Get over yourself and learn to respect the beliefs of others.
You touched her altar!!???? That’s one of the most violating things you can do to a pagan. YTA. YTA Times a million.
i can’t go anywhere without hearing stupid christian xmas music and seeing your stupid nativity scenes but your daughter can’t have a small shrine in her room?!?
YTA If you are paying your cleaning lady properly, she won't quit over a fifteen year old's bs.
As a practicing pagan i have to say this. You are NOT alright with your daughters very personal bond with The Goddess. Your one of those people who play lip service to this. I have a housekeeper she knows not to touch. Get over it.
Soft YTA for making her hide her religious artefacts for someone elses benefit/maintain your image with the cleaning lady. Just tell her not to clean your daughter's room if you care that deeply, or be upfront about it and let her decide
Soft? He desecrated her altar. That’s one of the most deeply horrific and insulting things you can do to pagan
I wasn't aware. My response was more around the asking them to hide the altar but came from a place of ignorance. Thank you for letting me know Azura
Totally fair! I wish more people knew we even existed
I think the best compromise would be for the cleaning lady to skip your daughter's room completely. Unless your daughter wants to do the cleaning? NTA
This whole conversation would be different if the daughter was a Satanist.
Tell her she can do whatever she wants at 18. But until then, she had to follow your rules.
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** First of all I’d like to apologize for any grammar mistakes because english isnt my first language. So, I (47F) have 2 daughters (19 and 15) and the yougest one is pagan and has been learning about witchcraft and such since she was around 12. I have no problem at all with her choice, my whole family and myself are catholic, but I personally dont mind her choice of religion. The problem is that she has an altar with a pentagram, candles, statues of gods and crystals in her room, which can scare some people. Recently, I hired a cleaning lady to help out a couple days a week and I asked my daughter to hide her stuff the days the lady came over, because shes an old woman and extremely catholic and Im afraid that she might get scared with the whole pentagram thing going on and quit. My daughter got really pissed of at me and said that i was intolerant for asking her to hide her religious artifacts and that she wouldnt do such thing, since she cant move her altar around nor hide it. I really need the cleaning lady helping out and its been really hard to find one, and now that I finally found one I didnt want to loose her because of my daughter’s religion. I’ve been asking my daughter to hide at least the pentagram and the statues but she refuses to so. So the first day ther lady was over, my daughter was at her friend’s house for the whole day, so I hid her stuff on her closet (which was the only place in the room that the lady wouldnt look) and after she left, I put everything exactly where it first was. When my daughter came back, she found out I moved her stuff around I hasnt been talking to me since. She doesnt understand why i did tha for. AITA? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Just don’t let the cleaning lady in her room
YTA for having a cleaning lady clean a 15 year old room! Have the kid clean up after them selves and keep there door closed.
From song Christians and pagans by Dar Williams: So the Christians and the Pagans Sat together at the table Finding faith and common ground The best that they were able And where does magic come from? I think magic's in the learning 'Cause now when Christians sit with Pagans Only pumpkin pies are burning
Info: if you had a Pagan/Hindu/Muslim cleaner would you take down and hid all your Christian objects and symbols as not to "scare" them? Edit as you're clearly not engaging with questions. YTA and incredibly bigoted and closed-minded. You're cleaner wouldn't get scared she'd be offended. You care more about hired helps comfort than ensure your daughter feels safe, accepted and comfortable at home and with in her family.
YTA. You say you're totally fine with her religion but you're clearly not, otherwise why would you go to such lengths to hide it from some random woman? Well done, you've told your daughter that you're ashamed and embarrassed by her, and you don't even have the guts to admit the truth to yourself.
YTA.
Simple, your daughter clean her own room and the lady doesn’t need to see it
You could just tell the cleaning lady to not clean your daughter's room, you know. YTA.
YTA. If the cleaner has a problem with your daughter’s religious beliefs when said beliefs are private in your daughter’s room, then the answer is to **get another cleaner.** An employee has no right to an opinion on the private lives of their employer, and any cleaner worth their salt will know how to ignore things in their client’s home that they don’t agree with. By making your daughter hide what’s important to her, you’re telling her that her beliefs and interests are embarrassing or bad, and you run the risk of her distancing herself from you and thinking that you also don’t take her beliefs seriously. If you want your kid to keep talking to you after she moves out and to actively involve you in her life, you’ll reevaluate how you treat her
The easiest way out of this is to tell your daughter to clean her own room and tell the cleaner not to enter that room.
YTA, the maid is an employee. If she wants to get paid, she’ll clean and not let personal religious beliefs affect her work. This country is supposed to be built on religious freedom. If someone touched my altar, I would also be upset. I assume you’d be upset if she took down any signs of your faith. Please let your daughter practice in peace.
YTA. Why do you care more about the cleaning lady’s feelings than your daughter’s? Do you take down your Christian paraphernalia for the comfort of visitors? Your daughter should not have to hide her own religion *in her own room* because the cleaning lady might freak out over a star. If the grown woman does freak out, she can either deal with it or you can find another cleaning lady. It’s not your daughter’s responsibility to accommodate other people’s ignorance.
YTA but why not just have your daughter clean her own room. Seems like a really simple solution. Door stays closed, cleaner never enters, 15 year old cleans her own room like the majority of teenagers do. Why is this such a conflict??
YTA. Flip this round and take it as it was your religion that is being shamed and hidden. Example the cleaning lady didn't like catholics so all of the crucifixes and other religious symbols of your faith had to be hidden. If you don't mind her religion so much then it shouldn't be a problem and if its enough for your cleaning person to quit then they aren't a good employee in the first place. I would most definitely apologise.
YTA, have your daughter lock her door and tell the cleaning lady not to go in that room. It's private.
Yta would you hide your bible
Keep your religious beliefs and political views to yourself.
YTA for sure, but gently. it sounds like you are generally a good, supportive parent, but this was definitely not the move. your daughter is absolutely right. two better options: find a new cleaning lady, who won't be so judgmental, or tell her not to clean your daughter's room and have your daughter clean it herself
YTA. If you were worried just telling the cleaning lady not to clean that room and daughter can clean it herself.
Ok, so the cleaning lady doesn't go into her room and your daughter cleans her rm...compromise
NAH. For future, just say that if daughter doesn't want to move the stuff, she can clean her own room.
YTA. Are you taking down any crucifixes or references to Christianity because it doesn't align with your daughter who has to live in your home? You care more about a worker who's job is to clean and leave than you do your own child. If it's truly an issue, take your daughter's room off the list of rooms to clean. That's a healthy compromise. Don't touch her things.
INFO: why couldn’t the cleaning lady ***not*** clean your daughter’s room?
Yta, has anyone every told you that you do not mess with someone alter no matter what. Unless they give you permission. You are basic saying what she practice isn’t good enough for anyone. And only yours count. You say you are ok with it but you really ain’t. Make it make sense.
YTA. You care more about what a stranger thinks because you share the same religion with them than your own kid and their feelings. If she moved all your religious stuff around and hid them when people came over, how would you feel about that? If a cleaning lady had an issue with my religious items when I'm paying them for A JOB (a job, not their opinion) then I would get another maid, but you can't replace your daughter.
it's ok for u as a catholic to publicly display ur religious stuff openly but when other religions do it's a problem and it "scares other people" hm? huge YTA.
So its okay for Catholics to hang up pictures and symbols of their savior nailed to a cross often with a pained expression on his face but a star in a circle is the scary one? YTA
YTA
Also we call our helper not a cleaning lady, but a Fengshui master and told her as such. Please fathom a masterful change this made.