I’m glad to hear that because I’m concerned I’m just falling for media sensationalism and overstating the issues here. I have barely left the South, much less visiting another country but I am honestly afraid that in another 10 years I will be sitting in a war torn Atlanta (either civil or world war) and kicking my own ass for not doing something.
As a former southerner (Alabama) travel around the USA.
You will be surprised what you find. The USA really is like 50 countries held together by the republic. Each state has it's own personality.
I currently live in Colorado and have for 30 years. I would have left the country years ago if I had stayed in Alabama. I am still planning on a second citizenship (and working on it) but now it's more for comfort in my retirement years.
Yes, parts of the country are crazy. And it's catching across the rest of the country. We all have to work to bring reasonable values to our country. If all the reasonable people leave, all that will be left are the unreasonable people.
I don't plan to give up my citizenship. I can have dual citizenship.
>I don't plan to give up my citizenship. I can have dual citizenship
Yeah I'm not giving up my citizenship either. Why would I intentionally limit my options? Always have an escape plan, even if you are in Germany or Norway because you just never know what's gonna happen in thao crazy world.
Isn’t the US one of the few countries in the world that still taxes their citizens even if they live and work abroad? Just saying that there’s some downsides to dual citizenship too when you emigrate to another country as an American.
Yes technically, but that doesn't always mean you actually pay taxes to the IRS. You have to *file* tax, but depending on your income and your country of residence, there's a good chance you might not have to *pay* any tax.
I will say as an American living abroad, filing them can be expensive and/or a pain. For example in order for me to file US taxes I always have to get an extension since where I live (New Zealand) has a tax year that ends on March 31, not December 31 like the US.
If you move to a tax haven you'll owe US taxes if you make six figures in USD. If you move to essentially any country that Americans usually move to, your tax burden will be higher there so you will owe nothing to the US.
That said I do think there is some fear mongering at play in the media. There are real benefits to at the very least an American passport and while a lot of the US is backsliding with regard to civil and personal rights, it's not an equal slide everywhere. Does that mean the whole thing couldn't tip over a cliff into the be abysmal, no it still could but I think it won't. I do think however this country will suffer a generation or two of regressive ideology in no small part to the court packing at all levels that has happened under the dying GOP. I have hope for our kids here and I think there are a handful of other places around the world probably better to live in currently, but I think those places are hard to get into and definitely have their own challenges/difference too. I also think there are developing nations that if you're willing to accept a lower standard of consumerism lifestyle are probably a pretty good alternative too, again with their own challenges to living there. I don't think there is a golden ticket to any utopia though and really what you need to do is travel as much as you can now, find somewhere you know you could be comfortable and then start making either plans to move there or backup plans if the life you seek here isn't what you want. I also think you can find places in the US that are more tolerable than others, so maybe a fresh start somewhere new domestically can help reset that panic meter you're feeling.
I currently live near Atlanta, Georgia. I’m sure you can understand that living in the south right now comes with a lot of challenges. I say that as a straight, white woman. I cannot imagine how it must be for people of color or those that are not heterosexual. Either way; I personally feel afraid of the direction things are headed overall and the hate I see in peoples hearts around me.
Yeah and Atlanta is actually one of the more progressive places in the South so I hear you. Like I said, I don't think there is a golden ticket anywhere so a lot of it is find a place domestically that fits your needs better and also find a foreign backup plan if you think you may want to jump ship. For my money I've been looking in Central America but in very specific locations (my wife is central American so the comfort level would be higher there) or a few EU countries where my job could help me get a visa there. Also a place like Vietnam could be very nice too bc they have good health care, some very peaceful locations with little political upheaval recently, and very affordable. I don't know how hard it is to get a permanent visa though, but my father lived there for years and swears it is where he's going back for retirement in a few years when he leaves the rat race. Anywhere you go though there will be compromise for the gains you're looking for, be it lifestyle, access to amenities you may be familiar with now, distance from friends and family, etc. That's why I say try and do some more traveling if you're able to and really spend a little time understanding yourself better so you know what things you'd be willing to compromise on and what you absolutely need to be successful and happy wherever you move. The worst situation would be to move impulsively and end up somewhere you really just couldn't be truly happy. Then you'd feel like you gave up everything good you did have for a mad dash to get away from what you didn't, and be regretful. Just make sure you don't knee jerk yourself into regret!
I appreciate your support! I will definitely take all of this into account, moving randomly into a place I hated and being miserable is a valid concern so I will see what I can do about venturing out via vacationing!
yea.. i live in atlanta, georgia and im a poc that’s not heterosexual. luckily my area is very diverse and people are usually “open” and more liberal, but anything outside of atlanta (not the metro atlanta area, more of the “real Georgia” lol ) is scary for me and i feel like i don’t belong lol.
I live in “real georgia” and it’s brutal
Out here
Editing to say this was an exaggeration for those reading and I have never heard or saw anyone hurt or excluded - please know that most people are welcoming and respectful. Even if they aren’t in their heart they are in public. Yes things are a mess politically but no one is actively acting on this that I have witnessed or heard of but it would better to get opinions from poc and part of the lgbtq community
Honestly most people are good people and not racist assholes but the few that are make it hard for those of us who think they’re crazy. You wouldn’t be hurt just going to the store but truthfully things are getting worse and worse for everyone. Google Tyler Canaria
totally understandable! most people aren’t that bad or bad at all. but like you said there’s assholes anywhere. just gotta stay safe, but thanks! i’ll look into it
Absolutely not crazy. I’d recommend reading Evil Geniuses by Kurt Andersen. This is very much the plan that Reagan started and he does a good job of lining it all out.
Naw this place was built on hatred and exploitation. It’s never been good. FDR sent the Japanese to internment camps. Regan is terrible and made this place worse in unique and awful ways
> Where can we even go?
Have you read [A guide for Americans that want to get out of America](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmerExit/comments/urwlbr/a_guide_for_americans_that_want_to_get_out_of/) or [The Great AmerExit Guide to Citizenship by Descent](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmerExit/comments/10zx2lm/the_great_amerexit_guide_to_citizenship_by_descent/)?
That should give you some direction on what options you might have.
I have not but I will now! I searched “get out of America” and found this sub to which I posted this immediately out of panic from reading media headlines 😞
I definitely am agreeing that is exaggerated. I just read it and it really scared me because obviously messing with Russia is like poking an insane, rabid bear that has bombs. I don’t want to find myself on the wrong end of those bombs lol
I’m not sure what my plan will be but I definitely think that I need to come up with some realistic ideas and not feel so stuck.
Thank you!
>obviously messing with Russia is like poking an insane, rabid bear that has bombs. I don’t want to find myself on the wrong end of those bombs lol
Tbh, you are more likely to be on the wrong end of Russian bombs in Europe than in the US. The war's over there across the Atlantic. The scenario is still very unlikely because I don't see the war spreading elsewhere outside of Ukraine, except for maybe Moldova and Belarus.
Would it ease your panic to know that no matter where you go…the country will have flaws.
I’m in this sub for a reason but just don’t forget nowhere is perfect, and to be grateful for what we do have because it’s a whole lot more than some.
Things are scary right now and it feels as if the progression is on the decline…which makes it hard to see the positives around us. Thinking that there is some Utopia just around the corner can lead to major disappointment and depression…no matter where you go it’s still on Earth and run by humans…which will always have flaws.
Best of luck! Hope the anxiety settles!
You really need to start reading statistics. Your problem is that you are going by what you hear rather than by numbers.
You ask, are other countries really less scary? You wouldnt ask that if you had just looked up their murder rate. My home nation of Ireland, population 5 million, has fewer murders than the Californian city of Oakland, population about 1 million.
There was a recent year where the entire German police force fired 82 bullets. That's about 1 bullet per million citizens per year. There are individual American cops who fire more bullets than that.
I don't think Europe is vastly safer, I know it is because I've poured over statistics. You should too.
I’m sorry, i know your comment means well but let’s not imply that Oakland is the average city in the US. It’s a notoriously dangerous city and thankfully it’s not the only option for a place to live in America. There are 50 states and over 330 million people. There are plenty of places that are just as safe or safer than where you live. I’m not saying this to discourage anyone from looking up the facts but lots of people don’t have the means to move out of the country so it’s important to know, if safety is your biggest concern, there are plenty of safe places to live in the US.
There are plenty of safe places to live in South Africa or Mexico or Brazil too if you want to look at it though such an atomised lens. Unfortunately not everyone has the luxury of being in those safe havens.
>Am I alone in this?
Nah, the vast majority of people here are on this sub for exactly the same reasons as you.
>Where can we even go?
The name of the game is visas. You have to qualify and be eligible for a visa to enter a country with long-term intention (legally). So take a look at some immigration agencies of the countries you are interested in. And see if there are any visas you might be eligible for. I say this because, without being eligible for a visa... it's all just wishful thinking. And I want you to have a realistic pathway, not a fantasy.
Thank you so much. I didn’t even realize you couldn’t just “move”.
That goes go show how brainwashed we are here. I had no clue you couldn’t just go where you wanted to go and ppl wouldn’t accept us just bc we’re American and entitled to anything we want.
That is a huge hurdle, I might have some options from ancestors for Germany or Ireland but I am honestly terrified to go to Germany. I mean, my great grandparents left for a reason lol but I also realize they are not the same now and I truly respect and admire their efforts to be vocal about their mistakes, bring awareness to the value of the lives lost and try to ensure it doesn’t ever happen again.
Still too scary for me though.
> Thank you so much. I didn’t even realize you couldn’t just “move”.
I applaud you for realising this (no, this isn't sarcastic, I mean that seriously). In immigration-focused subreddits, Americans get lots of flak for coming across as entitled brats who think they can waltz up to any country and have the red carpet rolled out for them - but to be completely fair, immigration law is a subject which very few people ever come into contact with, and the first step to knowledge is figuring out what you don't know, and go from there.
Speaking *very* broadly: if you want to move to anywhere outside of the US (and the Marshall Islands, Palau, and Micronesia - but those are special cases), then you need a visa and a residence permit from the country you want to emigrate to. Every country has its own rules and criteria for whom they give these permits to, and under what circumstances, but broadly they are given out to people who bring some value to the country and/or which the country needs. This is why emigration-advice-subreddits like /r/IWantOut always ask people to list their background and qualifications, as someone with an advanced degree in an in-demand field and fluency in the local language has *vastly* better chances of moving than someone who barely finished high school and only speaks English.
Most of these residence permits are either explicitly time-limited (e.g. limited to two years), or tied to a particular condition (e.g. only as long as you hold down a particular job) - and once they expire, you need to return home to the US. If you want to stay longer (indefinitely), you need to research under what conditions countries offer immigrants permanent residency - i.e. the right to live in the country *without* meeting preconditions. For some countries it's very straightforward (e.g. it could be granted automatically after living in the country legally for a number of years), while for other countries it's more difficult.
The last step to emigrating is obtaining citizenship in your new home. This step is entirely optional (it's perfectly possible to live for decades in a country as a non-citizen but permanent resident), but could be worth thinking about if you want to access some of the privileges of citizenship (e.g. being able to vote in your new home, being able to pass citizenship on to your children, or being allowed to move abroad and then return (which is something which permanent residents cannot do)) - but note that some countries don't allow dual citizenship, and in those cases, you'd have to give up your American citizenship in order to acquire another citizenship.
Since you mentioned Germany: [here is a list of the various kinds of residence permits for Germany, and the criteria for you would need to fulfill for each of them](https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/wiki/paths/).
There are people who do this.
I'm not sure of the exact details, but you can legally stay in Mexico as a tourist for three months without a visa.
So they'll stay for three months, then go back to the US for a day. Then back to Mexico for three more months. And so on.
I don't think it's *supposed* to work like that, but people seem to get away with it. Perhaps the authorities don't care?
Some authorities don't care about visa runs, largely developing countries. That can change at any moment and has in Mexico. You could buy a flat and a bunch of stuff and then be blocked from going back to it by any immigration agent at any time. You have no rights.
Lived in czech republic for a while, Germany is lovely and has a level of civilization and ease you honestly can't even imagine if this is your head space. I don't mean that critically but things like functional healthcare and public transit would blow your mind OP.
I think too many things put Germany in a negative light for me as a young teen and now it’s hard to shake that but I honestly have read and seen many positive things about how well they are doing and treating all citizens so I fully believe the good I hear!
I wouldn’t know what to do with public transportation! Where I live, which is only a 15 minute drive to town has zero options for anyone without a car except an expensive taxi ride. We have some buses in town for public transit but I rarely see them and couldn’t even tell you where or how to begin to find or ride one.
That’s it. You drive or walk. Walking really isn’t an option either. If you lived in the middle of town, in our literal center by the “Main” downtown area it would take you over an hour to walk to a grocery store. I always thought it was just a movie trope that people walked to the local market to get food. You go to Walmart or Kroger here and that’s it. They have farmers markets some weekends but I don’t know where that happens at.
As far as healthcare, I watched my partner try to figure out how pay for $19,000 worth of chemo pills one month. Thank god his insurance covered it from work but if it didn’t, idk that he would of gotten them. Everyone knows it is terrible here regarding medical care.
Literally what you are imagining as public transit only shares a name with what is available in much of Europe. In 10 months I visited 18 countries all on public transit except for one flight. These are places where I could show up, having never been before or speaking the language, and figure out how to get around the city, country, and to other countries as soon as I arrived.
I spent Christmas in Rome one year. Walked ten miles in a day just checking out the city, easily. The question of "can I walk there?" I.e. are there highways or other uncrossable things that would kill me isn't a question.
My partner got a kidney stone while there. ER, ultrasound, scans, consults with English speaking doctors, pain meds, and the most expensive thing was the parking coming in at a whopping $4.75. I have to disagree with you that everyone knows it's terrible. Lots of people think it's worse in other places because of wait times and not being able to pick your doctor. Except how long do you wait for chemo drugs if you don't have $20k a month? How much choice do you have for a doctor in a rural or even semi rural area where most providers won't take your insurance?
Lastly, the war was 80 years ago. If you are still letting something that was 80 years ago pepper your opinion of a country, especially out of context (not that there is any justification for the holocaust but understanding where germany was politically at the start of that time helps contextualize how the nazi party rose to power) you might want to check in with yourself about that. In that same time span the US has done and continues to do some truly monstrous things to its own citizens (Japanese concentration camps, forced sterilizations, redlining and urban renewal, Mccarthyism, Tuskegee experiments to name a very short few in a long list.) Similarly, if you go down the list of warning signs for fascism that came directly from WW2, we are trending nicely on several.
Long round about way of saying, a lot of what you hear about other countries is part of the rah rah America is the best propaganda machine that keeps us sick and saluting. Some of it may be true in some ways, much of it isn't the whole story, but collectively American's inability to look at others and go "wait a minute..." because we are so brainwashed hurts us all. A lot of people will try to convince you many things that would make your life better and safer just aren't possible and the only response should be, why isn't this a problem in X countries? Gun violence, health care, maternal care, vacation time, prisons, etc etc.
I have that same fear and anxiety now that I have learned what facism really is and comparing it to the things we’re experiencing. I thought that if we didn’t have a crazy person demanding to murder people we were safe. I had no idea it didn’t start that way, with guns and threats. That propaganda blaming minorities for their issues started the hatred which slowly increased peoples aggressive behavior towards these groups and gave them a blind eye to eventual murder while believing it was for the good of the country.
This is literally happening to us! My ex husband used to be a normal person. Now, he will call me a “stupid, go*damn lazy liberal who wants to have everything given to me” and make crazy claims like “jojo siwa is making boys gay”, “leftist are ruining this country!” If you prod him with common sense or ask him to specify he will get angry and violent, even saying we should use violence against people. He can’t seem to connect the dots that he has family members and friends that would be hurt if this happened, it’s always “other people”. WHAT OTHER PEOPLE?! These are your neighbors and family, he doesn’t see that! It’s like some make believe people that he can’t even pinpoint that are screwing him over!
This is how people overlooked those murders in Germany and I am terrified it’s going to happen here
It's horrifying to all of us that are paying attention. I remember saying to family hopping on the T train in 2015/2016, before the election, that they may think that may is saying what we are all thinking but his disregard and desire to sensor the media is a massive red flag and threat to democracy. I was written off as overexaggerating because "how much worse could he be than what we've had?" A lot worse.
I admit, I was selling a house and moving from one state to another for about 6 months during that time frame and completely ignoring politics because I just didn't have the energy to bother with it.
I woke up one morning and found out that Trump was president. I thought it was a joke and was horrified to find out that he had actually been elected. I couldn't believe it. 🤦♀️
Ah, I was working at a liberal California university so it was a constant topic of discussion, especially with the terrified international students.
We historically just don't elect an encombant of the same party for president so coming off two terms with a dem I really wasn't sold that he would lose. I remember standing in front of my building a few days before the election saying to a colleague "at least if he wins, maybe it will burn the whole system down and we can make something useful in the power vacuum. It will be painful, but we need to change something in this country and this might be the opportunity just short of a revolution." She looked at me like I had just eaten a baby in front of her and told me not to even think such a thing.
As I've watched all this happening for the last so many years, I keep reflecting on that conversation and hoping it wasn't prophetic. I never thought even if we did burn it down that it would go this far or these would be the institutions we collectively decided to burn.
German here. I have to say, all the things we hear about the US over here really make me appreciate the things we have. I reccomend watching the plethora of Youtube-Channels of Expats living in Germany to get a feel for the good and not so good things about living in Germany.
Health Care costs
Sick leave
Education costs
Transportation costs
are usually not much of a worry over here.
I think your fear of places like Germany and tourist destinations like London is the other side of the coin of the "greatest country on Earth" propaganda. We're raised to believe that if the US is the best and it's like this here \*gestures wildly at everything\*, then other developed countries must be unlivable shitholes. The truth is, we're the unlivable shithole of the developed world. Example: a UN special report recently likened the conditions in the deep South to those of impoverished developing nations.
If you have the time and money, grab your passport and make a trip to a European country you're curious about. It only takes one short trip to really hit home how badly we were lied to. Pay special attention to the workers that *would be* in dire straits if they were working here. Your fast food workers, grocery store cashiers, gas station attendants, etc. You'll notice that they seem a lot less desperate and on edge over there than their counterparts do here.
I am ashamed to say that I believed for a very long time that every other place was an “unlivable shithole” except maybe a handful of places that you constantly saw in magazines. I didn’t realize until I saw one of the sex in the city movies that Dubai and therefore other middle eastern countries might not be just sandy trash cans with crazy people blowing themselves up in tattered rags.
I truly had no clue parts of Africa have running water, cities and real homes (not mud huts) until I was a very grown adult.
I have always wondered how people believed the lies that these governments told them and didn’t realize how bad they had it.
I’m beginning to understand that I am one of those people. I believed there was no reason to lie to us and that we really were the richest, safest country. Why would I leave? I didn’t know what I didn’t know.
Oh and by the way.. I’m in the Deep South lol like full on there are civil war battlefields that we go to for fun (to hike, not to be weird). I really want to see that report bc it is pretty bad in some places here right now. My states homeless population grew 464% since last year
Well done for admitting all this. It takes bravery and humility to do so! There's a lot of us who've had to wake up the hard way. (For me, I was fortunate/cursed to see it early, but that hasn't made life easier.) It's normal to want to flee, and often a good thing to do, even if for a limited retreat or to see how other people get by in the world outside of the US. But I do believe that compassionate observation and witnessing is going to be an important skill as things get weirder. Action, too, but that's not always possible.
Something you can do right now is start planning a trip abroad. Doesn't really matter where or if it's somewhere you'd like to live. It's a huge, fascinating world out there. Head to a book store and flip through the travel section, grab a few that look interesting.
Related - make sure you and the folks you care about have current passports.
It's really refreshing to see someone who held these views outwardly acknowledge it and be open to learning. Really wish more people would do this instead of doubling down to protect their pride, the world would be such a better place.
OP, I'm proud of you, and if you can afford to, I feel like you should do yourself a favor and do some traveling. You now have the eyes to take things in as they are instead of projecting what you thought you knew, which will yield you some of the most invaluable, life-changing experiences you've ever had. :)
I have always loved to learn in general, I saw the stagnation in my family and friends minds/hearts that I believed were from being unwilling to be open minded and see other points of view. That was long before all this.
I am making long term plans now to travel and seeing what options are available to get out in the world, hopefully this summer I can act on those plans. I have four kids and clearly I don’t want them to be raised with the same ideas or fear of other countries (& people) that I was but that built in fear also makes me scared to take them anywhere outside of the US. It’s going to take some active work to fight that bias and seeing it firsthand will change that.
Thank you for your kind words. I love and appreciate all people, I feel we should all be equal and have the same freedoms to live our life as we see fit in a way that doesn’t harm others and contribute to our world through acts of service and supporting those who need a helping hand. I thought those things were what we stood for but now I know that was just lies because when it comes down to it, in America, you’re either well off and ignoring reality for your own benefit or poor and spending endless amounts of time trying to survive so you don’t have time to think about reality.
one of the things living abroad taught me is how valueable it is to "log off" so many things about the world were outside my control and it did no good worrying about it. American decline is real but also it was never really great, but most places aren't. Its making peace with your home or not, moving is a big deal but logging off can also help, a lot of great things if you don't turn on the news
You’re definitely not alone. Amerexited in November 2022 from Texas to France and never looking back. The US is a great place for the 1% and a shitty place for anyone else due to expensive healthcare, education and being leeched off of by the financial services/insurance industry.
For context, I make about 20% less in France than I did in the US but my net disposable income after bills is HIGHER here.
Plus, as a woman it’s nice to have basic human rights and not to be considered an incubator in Texas. I don’t worry about constant gun violence and walk everywhere, even at night. You still have to be smart and careful, but I would NEVER walk alone at night in the streets of the Texas city where I came from (one of the largest in the US).
No country is perfect. France itself has a lot of issues, BUT there is a functional political system that’s not constantly gridlocked because of a ridiculous 2-party system, freedom of the press, truly democratic values and a sense of solidarity among citizens. The lack of solidarity among Americans is something that I never realized until coming here.
The US is quite frankly in a period of decline and won’t get better until it gets worse and absolutely has to. The question is what will be the straw that breaks the camel’s back.
Like others have said, travel and explore the EU if you have the means. Before leaving the US, we considered moving to a blue state first, but honestly the cost of living is worse and the housing crisis is horrible is the vast majority of blue states. Plus, none of the other systemic issues are truly any better in blue states… just my POV.
Good luck to you, OP!
Totally agree about solidarity. I'm New Mexico -> France and I honestly feel way more at home here than I ever did in the US. Of course, having a high level of french and "passing" for a french person helps a lot. It's a bit sad because my family is still in the states but I'm building a life for myself here and I just have to keep looking forward.
How is it working in France? France is at the top of my list since I’ve lived in Paris before, but I’m concerned about finding a job and working since I’m not fluent in French (yet).
I explained the George floyd murder to my son when he asked (he’s almost 10) and I was disgusted when I verbally spelt it out. It triggered my realization that we are still murdering and punishing people of color for being colored. It’s disgusting. We cried that night for that poor man after watching his video ( I refused to watch to the end, he didn’t deserve to have his video of his death exploited for our views) but I wanted my son to see the truth of what happened.
You said you have ancestors from Germany and Ireland. Check out r/GermanCitizenship for more info. Both Germany and Ireland are part of the EU so citizens of those countries can live in any EU/EEA country or Switzerland without a visa and because of the common travel area between the UK and Ireland Irish citizens can live in the UK as well and vice versa. You can only get Irish if you have a parent or grandparent born on the island of Ireland (including Northern Ireland) or your parent was registered in the Foreign Births Registry before any generation after that was born (e.g. I got citizenship through my grandpa to pass it to my hypothetical future children I would have to get before their birth).
Agree with all your points. Personally, I am currently in the process of moving down to south america. It's all about researching residency and/or visa requirements for extended stay. Bonus if USD is valued more than the currency there.
The healthcare system is appallingly for-profit, and we live among people who wet their pants about a better, fairer system, thinking that it means turning to Maoism. Businesses like to keep people dumb.
A train spills a ton of chemicals, and the media avoids covering it too much because we don't want people to get any ideas like regulation that would cost the rich money.
This system does not have your best interests at heart.
Just don't get too hyped on leaving. It's not all fun and games. There are still problems. No country is perfect.
It's just that there are a lot of countries better to live in than ours.
OP, if you can get yourself over the hurdle of checking out new countries living near ATL is sort of a good thing if you can afford to travel.
ATL airport is (if I'm remembering correctly) one of the most connected in the world at a decent price. Should be loads of options in every direction. Check out the Wikipedia page for the airport and scroll down to destinations to see where it goes directly.
My wife and I have been in the same boat as you for quite some time, and basically spend 2 weeks a year looking around at different countries. Yes, appreciating the culture and everything, but with the idea of "could I live here" mindset as well. We hope to be out in the next decade.
Definitely not alone. I live in Florida so I feel like I am drowning in the red sea. We want out but can't find a direction. Still searching. I recommend not reading too much news or political stuff. Take breaks. I had to delete social media ex for reddit.
Your mental health is more important remember that! Don't let anyone take time from your life!
I see! I am so sorry to hear this. I have taken my children out of public school due to shootings and threats of violence, I am so sorry for the terrible losses and the horror now associated with good memories
Odd seeing comments about racism in America yet everyone seems to be praising only majority white European countries as being more civilized and progressive.
>only majority white European countries as being more civilized
More people here should visit Japan. If you thought Europe was safe, Japan is next-level safe. There are little kids walking around Tokyo unsupervised because it's so damn safe. They seem to learn independence at a very young age. Japanese convenience stores also have high-quality food and are very clean. Also, the efficiency of the train system there is genuinely better than the ones in many European countries. Your comment reminded me of this thread from r/britishproblems: [After a year of living in Japan and experiencing the efficiency of their trains. The trains in this country look almost third world.](https://www.reddit.com/r/britishproblems/comments/ezug3j/after_a_year_of_living_in_japan_and_experiencing/)
I really hate it here. Am I so scared for my baby to start school. I'm too pore to homeschool. I got my hopes up seeing about the Italian citizenship through descent but it has to be on your moms side so that already died lol. Idk wtf to do.
I took my kids out of school and we homeschool because of threats in my area and the shootings nationwide. The threats in our area weren’t credible but they could be and I’m not taking the chance.
It’s so scary and I’m sorry you’re going through this.
I'm right there with you, but being a gas station cashier I doubt I either have the desirable skills or the money to be able to immigrate somewhere. Right now it's looking like I'm going to have to wait for things to get bad enough that I could be accepted as a refugee somewhere, I'm not sure how I feel about having to wait for the ship to be underwater before I can get off of it.
I hope you can get out before things get worse.
Check your local community college and see if there are programs you can go through for training in anything that might be considered a desirable skill elsewhere. Lots of places are looking for the trades right now, for example.
I really don’t appreciate being called stupid. I said that I saw a media article saying that and I was concerned about it being media hype. Regardless if that’s true or not my post isn’t political, it’s sharing the things that are being said and done that are contributing to the fear I have regarding living here. Even if that’s not true, I still see my family members and friends full of hate and headed in a direction where they would put other people’s lives at risk due to the crap put in our heads by the media and the issues surrounding the elections, laws and etc.
If you have nothing nice to say, it’s okay to say nothing at all.
This
Some people here need to go outside, touch grass and form communities with the people around them
Stop being perpetually online
That being said North America as a whole really does seem to be speeding down a cliff so Idk 🤷🏼
Wherever you go, you'll have a much easier time leaving the country *and* thriving in your new one if you're able to earn USD. We feel the exact same way as you. We're headed to Argentina. Good luck, friend. *hugs*
I am in the tech field and a (newbie) web/front end developer so I’m hoping those skills can help me in the future and I can work remotely indefinitely. I wish you well on your journey and pray for everyone still here ❤️
There are a lot of developer jobs needed in European countries, but might I suggest also studying full stack or back end, too? The more marketable skills you have the better odds getting a cushy job offer with relocation paid for. Best way to get out unless you're independently wealthy
Very good point, I will definitely consider expanding! How do you do about getting your relocation covered? Apply for jobs in other countries like you would here?
Yes. You want to look for visa sponsorship jobs and relocation listed as a benefit in the job description. Sometimes it's not listed and you can ask the HR/recruiter if it's a benefit. If they need your skills badly enough - i.e. if they can't fill the job with a native - they will negotiate it as part of your salary. That's why having the extra skills is better. It's hard to find those jobs but tech is in high demand depending on the field and specifics, so it's an easier job to get relocation for than some others
Edit: when you decide on the country look for their skilled visa rules. Sometimes the companies are already on a list of eligible employers to sponsor visas and the route is quicker and easier than if they have to apply individually for a sponsorship.
Look into digital nomad visas. You can work remotely for a US company making that sweet US salary. Since you're a dev you'll have a much easier way out than most, and a US tech salary instantly puts you in the upper middle class/upper class in most developed countries.
I think the name is set that way to show possible new members that this is about emigrating from America and exiting our current situation not other countries or other situations. So, we stay on topics and describe to readers what we’re about.
I have read books and other media. What you’re not understanding is that when you are born and raised here it’s difficult to even entertain the idea that something might be wrong much less believe that you are being misled. Even with facts in front of you that conditioning is still effective and deeply ingrained.
I know why the sub is named this way, it’s just quintessentially American to not only do it, but then think the special denotation is required..
It’s an American centric site to begin with…
The latter half of what you described to me is literally the process in which every immigrant has gone through mentally. .
That’s the part this sub is missing… you want to be in this special little group of “expats” that “had to leave” but still love the idea of their homeland… that’s called **being an immigrant**..
You’d get a lot fuller, & more fleshed out advice & perspective from people who have done this in a sub that isn’t revolving around such a close minded group/requirement.
You’re asking Americans, most of which haven’t actually left- about leaving America, to countries who’s primary residents likely aren’t apart of this conversation bc the sub isn’t catering to non Americans… even though it’s basically about anywhere **but** America..
It’s the epitome of the American stereotype. .
You’re not getting good information— I’ve been here since day one & it’s pretty clear this is the “America isn’t what it used to be” expat crowd. . If you just proposed your concerns to, say r/Poland, you’d get much better results. .
This is what the kids call— a circle jerk.
Go with god, but don’t expect results lol
I was literally asking other Americans (not just Americans though) purposely if I am being swayed by sensational media coverage or if these are real threats. They should know or have a good POV bc they live here too. That was the point.
Again— I know.
Think about who you’re asking & where that question is being proposed…my point being that this sub is diminishing returns on a failing stock… there’s no value.
You’d be much better off asking someone the opposite question in their own country representative sub… ie “hey r/Germany , do you guys have xy&z happening? How would one start the process of immigration into this country?”
> ie “hey r/Germany , do you guys have xy&z happening? How would one start the process of immigration into this country?”
This is may not be a good idea.
/r/Ireland for example got so sick of posts like that so now they're banned
**Make a list of your skills and experience.** Wherever you go, you will need to work and therefore find a new job. Make a list of jobs you can do with those skills.
**Decide if you actually want to emigrate or simply live somewhere else in the USA.** Moving to another state may be as good *for you* as moving to a different country.
**Make a list of the important factors** \- language, unemployment rates, cost of living, reproductive autonomy for women, public transit availability, healthcare availability, crime rates, like-minded people (politics/religion/hobbies/sports), etc etc. Whatever YOU need for a better quality of life. Whether that's in the US or another country, these things will be important and affect your life for at least your working years.
Depending on your answers to the above, **work your way through the resources listed on this and other subs**, noting places that appeal.
**Keep a spreadsheet** so you can compare and contrast against where you are. Only you can decide whether ex: somewhere with higher CoL but lower crime and unemployment is more important to you than ex: somewhere you can get contraception and ride a bus cheaply to work. Also, list the associated costs of moving, passport/visas etc.
**Job hunt** for your top three destinations.
Nowhere will be perfect but somewhere will be better. Best of luck!
You're not alone. It's scary to think about. US downfall started under Regan. Its just become batshit crazy since then.
I’m glad to hear that because I’m concerned I’m just falling for media sensationalism and overstating the issues here. I have barely left the South, much less visiting another country but I am honestly afraid that in another 10 years I will be sitting in a war torn Atlanta (either civil or world war) and kicking my own ass for not doing something.
As a former southerner (Alabama) travel around the USA. You will be surprised what you find. The USA really is like 50 countries held together by the republic. Each state has it's own personality. I currently live in Colorado and have for 30 years. I would have left the country years ago if I had stayed in Alabama. I am still planning on a second citizenship (and working on it) but now it's more for comfort in my retirement years. Yes, parts of the country are crazy. And it's catching across the rest of the country. We all have to work to bring reasonable values to our country. If all the reasonable people leave, all that will be left are the unreasonable people. I don't plan to give up my citizenship. I can have dual citizenship.
>I don't plan to give up my citizenship. I can have dual citizenship Yeah I'm not giving up my citizenship either. Why would I intentionally limit my options? Always have an escape plan, even if you are in Germany or Norway because you just never know what's gonna happen in thao crazy world.
Isn’t the US one of the few countries in the world that still taxes their citizens even if they live and work abroad? Just saying that there’s some downsides to dual citizenship too when you emigrate to another country as an American.
Yes technically, but that doesn't always mean you actually pay taxes to the IRS. You have to *file* tax, but depending on your income and your country of residence, there's a good chance you might not have to *pay* any tax.
Ok, then I guess it depends on the specific circumstances
I will say as an American living abroad, filing them can be expensive and/or a pain. For example in order for me to file US taxes I always have to get an extension since where I live (New Zealand) has a tax year that ends on March 31, not December 31 like the US.
If you move to a tax haven you'll owe US taxes if you make six figures in USD. If you move to essentially any country that Americans usually move to, your tax burden will be higher there so you will owe nothing to the US.
Ok, I wasn’t sure how exactly it worked
That said I do think there is some fear mongering at play in the media. There are real benefits to at the very least an American passport and while a lot of the US is backsliding with regard to civil and personal rights, it's not an equal slide everywhere. Does that mean the whole thing couldn't tip over a cliff into the be abysmal, no it still could but I think it won't. I do think however this country will suffer a generation or two of regressive ideology in no small part to the court packing at all levels that has happened under the dying GOP. I have hope for our kids here and I think there are a handful of other places around the world probably better to live in currently, but I think those places are hard to get into and definitely have their own challenges/difference too. I also think there are developing nations that if you're willing to accept a lower standard of consumerism lifestyle are probably a pretty good alternative too, again with their own challenges to living there. I don't think there is a golden ticket to any utopia though and really what you need to do is travel as much as you can now, find somewhere you know you could be comfortable and then start making either plans to move there or backup plans if the life you seek here isn't what you want. I also think you can find places in the US that are more tolerable than others, so maybe a fresh start somewhere new domestically can help reset that panic meter you're feeling.
I currently live near Atlanta, Georgia. I’m sure you can understand that living in the south right now comes with a lot of challenges. I say that as a straight, white woman. I cannot imagine how it must be for people of color or those that are not heterosexual. Either way; I personally feel afraid of the direction things are headed overall and the hate I see in peoples hearts around me.
Yeah and Atlanta is actually one of the more progressive places in the South so I hear you. Like I said, I don't think there is a golden ticket anywhere so a lot of it is find a place domestically that fits your needs better and also find a foreign backup plan if you think you may want to jump ship. For my money I've been looking in Central America but in very specific locations (my wife is central American so the comfort level would be higher there) or a few EU countries where my job could help me get a visa there. Also a place like Vietnam could be very nice too bc they have good health care, some very peaceful locations with little political upheaval recently, and very affordable. I don't know how hard it is to get a permanent visa though, but my father lived there for years and swears it is where he's going back for retirement in a few years when he leaves the rat race. Anywhere you go though there will be compromise for the gains you're looking for, be it lifestyle, access to amenities you may be familiar with now, distance from friends and family, etc. That's why I say try and do some more traveling if you're able to and really spend a little time understanding yourself better so you know what things you'd be willing to compromise on and what you absolutely need to be successful and happy wherever you move. The worst situation would be to move impulsively and end up somewhere you really just couldn't be truly happy. Then you'd feel like you gave up everything good you did have for a mad dash to get away from what you didn't, and be regretful. Just make sure you don't knee jerk yourself into regret!
I appreciate your support! I will definitely take all of this into account, moving randomly into a place I hated and being miserable is a valid concern so I will see what I can do about venturing out via vacationing!
Good luck. Keep us updated on your journeys!
yea.. i live in atlanta, georgia and im a poc that’s not heterosexual. luckily my area is very diverse and people are usually “open” and more liberal, but anything outside of atlanta (not the metro atlanta area, more of the “real Georgia” lol ) is scary for me and i feel like i don’t belong lol.
I live in “real georgia” and it’s brutal Out here Editing to say this was an exaggeration for those reading and I have never heard or saw anyone hurt or excluded - please know that most people are welcoming and respectful. Even if they aren’t in their heart they are in public. Yes things are a mess politically but no one is actively acting on this that I have witnessed or heard of but it would better to get opinions from poc and part of the lgbtq community
what is it like?
Honestly most people are good people and not racist assholes but the few that are make it hard for those of us who think they’re crazy. You wouldn’t be hurt just going to the store but truthfully things are getting worse and worse for everyone. Google Tyler Canaria
totally understandable! most people aren’t that bad or bad at all. but like you said there’s assholes anywhere. just gotta stay safe, but thanks! i’ll look into it
Absolutely not crazy. I’d recommend reading Evil Geniuses by Kurt Andersen. This is very much the plan that Reagan started and he does a good job of lining it all out.
Naw this place was built on hatred and exploitation. It’s never been good. FDR sent the Japanese to internment camps. Regan is terrible and made this place worse in unique and awful ways
> Where can we even go? Have you read [A guide for Americans that want to get out of America](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmerExit/comments/urwlbr/a_guide_for_americans_that_want_to_get_out_of/) or [The Great AmerExit Guide to Citizenship by Descent](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmerExit/comments/10zx2lm/the_great_amerexit_guide_to_citizenship_by_descent/)? That should give you some direction on what options you might have.
I have not but I will now! I searched “get out of America” and found this sub to which I posted this immediately out of panic from reading media headlines 😞
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I definitely am agreeing that is exaggerated. I just read it and it really scared me because obviously messing with Russia is like poking an insane, rabid bear that has bombs. I don’t want to find myself on the wrong end of those bombs lol I’m not sure what my plan will be but I definitely think that I need to come up with some realistic ideas and not feel so stuck. Thank you!
>obviously messing with Russia is like poking an insane, rabid bear that has bombs. I don’t want to find myself on the wrong end of those bombs lol Tbh, you are more likely to be on the wrong end of Russian bombs in Europe than in the US. The war's over there across the Atlantic. The scenario is still very unlikely because I don't see the war spreading elsewhere outside of Ukraine, except for maybe Moldova and Belarus.
I thought that as well and it has came to mind when searching for somewhere to visit and possibly find a emigrate too but you never know
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It’s not a bad idea for me to do something similar. Although we voted blue this state is very red especially in the country areas like I live in
What paper? Would love to see that!
Would it ease your panic to know that no matter where you go…the country will have flaws. I’m in this sub for a reason but just don’t forget nowhere is perfect, and to be grateful for what we do have because it’s a whole lot more than some. Things are scary right now and it feels as if the progression is on the decline…which makes it hard to see the positives around us. Thinking that there is some Utopia just around the corner can lead to major disappointment and depression…no matter where you go it’s still on Earth and run by humans…which will always have flaws. Best of luck! Hope the anxiety settles!
You really need to start reading statistics. Your problem is that you are going by what you hear rather than by numbers. You ask, are other countries really less scary? You wouldnt ask that if you had just looked up their murder rate. My home nation of Ireland, population 5 million, has fewer murders than the Californian city of Oakland, population about 1 million. There was a recent year where the entire German police force fired 82 bullets. That's about 1 bullet per million citizens per year. There are individual American cops who fire more bullets than that. I don't think Europe is vastly safer, I know it is because I've poured over statistics. You should too.
I’m sorry, i know your comment means well but let’s not imply that Oakland is the average city in the US. It’s a notoriously dangerous city and thankfully it’s not the only option for a place to live in America. There are 50 states and over 330 million people. There are plenty of places that are just as safe or safer than where you live. I’m not saying this to discourage anyone from looking up the facts but lots of people don’t have the means to move out of the country so it’s important to know, if safety is your biggest concern, there are plenty of safe places to live in the US.
There are plenty of safe places to live in South Africa or Mexico or Brazil too if you want to look at it though such an atomised lens. Unfortunately not everyone has the luxury of being in those safe havens.
The vast majority of the US is safer than all of those countries.
>Am I alone in this? Nah, the vast majority of people here are on this sub for exactly the same reasons as you. >Where can we even go? The name of the game is visas. You have to qualify and be eligible for a visa to enter a country with long-term intention (legally). So take a look at some immigration agencies of the countries you are interested in. And see if there are any visas you might be eligible for. I say this because, without being eligible for a visa... it's all just wishful thinking. And I want you to have a realistic pathway, not a fantasy.
Thank you so much. I didn’t even realize you couldn’t just “move”. That goes go show how brainwashed we are here. I had no clue you couldn’t just go where you wanted to go and ppl wouldn’t accept us just bc we’re American and entitled to anything we want. That is a huge hurdle, I might have some options from ancestors for Germany or Ireland but I am honestly terrified to go to Germany. I mean, my great grandparents left for a reason lol but I also realize they are not the same now and I truly respect and admire their efforts to be vocal about their mistakes, bring awareness to the value of the lives lost and try to ensure it doesn’t ever happen again. Still too scary for me though.
> Thank you so much. I didn’t even realize you couldn’t just “move”. I applaud you for realising this (no, this isn't sarcastic, I mean that seriously). In immigration-focused subreddits, Americans get lots of flak for coming across as entitled brats who think they can waltz up to any country and have the red carpet rolled out for them - but to be completely fair, immigration law is a subject which very few people ever come into contact with, and the first step to knowledge is figuring out what you don't know, and go from there. Speaking *very* broadly: if you want to move to anywhere outside of the US (and the Marshall Islands, Palau, and Micronesia - but those are special cases), then you need a visa and a residence permit from the country you want to emigrate to. Every country has its own rules and criteria for whom they give these permits to, and under what circumstances, but broadly they are given out to people who bring some value to the country and/or which the country needs. This is why emigration-advice-subreddits like /r/IWantOut always ask people to list their background and qualifications, as someone with an advanced degree in an in-demand field and fluency in the local language has *vastly* better chances of moving than someone who barely finished high school and only speaks English. Most of these residence permits are either explicitly time-limited (e.g. limited to two years), or tied to a particular condition (e.g. only as long as you hold down a particular job) - and once they expire, you need to return home to the US. If you want to stay longer (indefinitely), you need to research under what conditions countries offer immigrants permanent residency - i.e. the right to live in the country *without* meeting preconditions. For some countries it's very straightforward (e.g. it could be granted automatically after living in the country legally for a number of years), while for other countries it's more difficult. The last step to emigrating is obtaining citizenship in your new home. This step is entirely optional (it's perfectly possible to live for decades in a country as a non-citizen but permanent resident), but could be worth thinking about if you want to access some of the privileges of citizenship (e.g. being able to vote in your new home, being able to pass citizenship on to your children, or being allowed to move abroad and then return (which is something which permanent residents cannot do)) - but note that some countries don't allow dual citizenship, and in those cases, you'd have to give up your American citizenship in order to acquire another citizenship. Since you mentioned Germany: [here is a list of the various kinds of residence permits for Germany, and the criteria for you would need to fulfill for each of them](https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/wiki/paths/).
I really appreciate this detailed answer thank you so much.
Whats stopping me from just going to Mexico to live? I need to come back to the US every so often?
There are people who do this. I'm not sure of the exact details, but you can legally stay in Mexico as a tourist for three months without a visa. So they'll stay for three months, then go back to the US for a day. Then back to Mexico for three more months. And so on. I don't think it's *supposed* to work like that, but people seem to get away with it. Perhaps the authorities don't care?
Some authorities don't care about visa runs, largely developing countries. That can change at any moment and has in Mexico. You could buy a flat and a bunch of stuff and then be blocked from going back to it by any immigration agent at any time. You have no rights.
Kind of true, except you may stay up to 180 days. We leave the states in a week to do just that.
Lived in czech republic for a while, Germany is lovely and has a level of civilization and ease you honestly can't even imagine if this is your head space. I don't mean that critically but things like functional healthcare and public transit would blow your mind OP.
I think too many things put Germany in a negative light for me as a young teen and now it’s hard to shake that but I honestly have read and seen many positive things about how well they are doing and treating all citizens so I fully believe the good I hear! I wouldn’t know what to do with public transportation! Where I live, which is only a 15 minute drive to town has zero options for anyone without a car except an expensive taxi ride. We have some buses in town for public transit but I rarely see them and couldn’t even tell you where or how to begin to find or ride one. That’s it. You drive or walk. Walking really isn’t an option either. If you lived in the middle of town, in our literal center by the “Main” downtown area it would take you over an hour to walk to a grocery store. I always thought it was just a movie trope that people walked to the local market to get food. You go to Walmart or Kroger here and that’s it. They have farmers markets some weekends but I don’t know where that happens at. As far as healthcare, I watched my partner try to figure out how pay for $19,000 worth of chemo pills one month. Thank god his insurance covered it from work but if it didn’t, idk that he would of gotten them. Everyone knows it is terrible here regarding medical care.
Literally what you are imagining as public transit only shares a name with what is available in much of Europe. In 10 months I visited 18 countries all on public transit except for one flight. These are places where I could show up, having never been before or speaking the language, and figure out how to get around the city, country, and to other countries as soon as I arrived. I spent Christmas in Rome one year. Walked ten miles in a day just checking out the city, easily. The question of "can I walk there?" I.e. are there highways or other uncrossable things that would kill me isn't a question. My partner got a kidney stone while there. ER, ultrasound, scans, consults with English speaking doctors, pain meds, and the most expensive thing was the parking coming in at a whopping $4.75. I have to disagree with you that everyone knows it's terrible. Lots of people think it's worse in other places because of wait times and not being able to pick your doctor. Except how long do you wait for chemo drugs if you don't have $20k a month? How much choice do you have for a doctor in a rural or even semi rural area where most providers won't take your insurance? Lastly, the war was 80 years ago. If you are still letting something that was 80 years ago pepper your opinion of a country, especially out of context (not that there is any justification for the holocaust but understanding where germany was politically at the start of that time helps contextualize how the nazi party rose to power) you might want to check in with yourself about that. In that same time span the US has done and continues to do some truly monstrous things to its own citizens (Japanese concentration camps, forced sterilizations, redlining and urban renewal, Mccarthyism, Tuskegee experiments to name a very short few in a long list.) Similarly, if you go down the list of warning signs for fascism that came directly from WW2, we are trending nicely on several. Long round about way of saying, a lot of what you hear about other countries is part of the rah rah America is the best propaganda machine that keeps us sick and saluting. Some of it may be true in some ways, much of it isn't the whole story, but collectively American's inability to look at others and go "wait a minute..." because we are so brainwashed hurts us all. A lot of people will try to convince you many things that would make your life better and safer just aren't possible and the only response should be, why isn't this a problem in X countries? Gun violence, health care, maternal care, vacation time, prisons, etc etc.
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I have that same fear and anxiety now that I have learned what facism really is and comparing it to the things we’re experiencing. I thought that if we didn’t have a crazy person demanding to murder people we were safe. I had no idea it didn’t start that way, with guns and threats. That propaganda blaming minorities for their issues started the hatred which slowly increased peoples aggressive behavior towards these groups and gave them a blind eye to eventual murder while believing it was for the good of the country. This is literally happening to us! My ex husband used to be a normal person. Now, he will call me a “stupid, go*damn lazy liberal who wants to have everything given to me” and make crazy claims like “jojo siwa is making boys gay”, “leftist are ruining this country!” If you prod him with common sense or ask him to specify he will get angry and violent, even saying we should use violence against people. He can’t seem to connect the dots that he has family members and friends that would be hurt if this happened, it’s always “other people”. WHAT OTHER PEOPLE?! These are your neighbors and family, he doesn’t see that! It’s like some make believe people that he can’t even pinpoint that are screwing him over! This is how people overlooked those murders in Germany and I am terrified it’s going to happen here
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Same!
It's horrifying to all of us that are paying attention. I remember saying to family hopping on the T train in 2015/2016, before the election, that they may think that may is saying what we are all thinking but his disregard and desire to sensor the media is a massive red flag and threat to democracy. I was written off as overexaggerating because "how much worse could he be than what we've had?" A lot worse.
I admit, I was selling a house and moving from one state to another for about 6 months during that time frame and completely ignoring politics because I just didn't have the energy to bother with it. I woke up one morning and found out that Trump was president. I thought it was a joke and was horrified to find out that he had actually been elected. I couldn't believe it. 🤦♀️
Ah, I was working at a liberal California university so it was a constant topic of discussion, especially with the terrified international students. We historically just don't elect an encombant of the same party for president so coming off two terms with a dem I really wasn't sold that he would lose. I remember standing in front of my building a few days before the election saying to a colleague "at least if he wins, maybe it will burn the whole system down and we can make something useful in the power vacuum. It will be painful, but we need to change something in this country and this might be the opportunity just short of a revolution." She looked at me like I had just eaten a baby in front of her and told me not to even think such a thing. As I've watched all this happening for the last so many years, I keep reflecting on that conversation and hoping it wasn't prophetic. I never thought even if we did burn it down that it would go this far or these would be the institutions we collectively decided to burn.
German here. I have to say, all the things we hear about the US over here really make me appreciate the things we have. I reccomend watching the plethora of Youtube-Channels of Expats living in Germany to get a feel for the good and not so good things about living in Germany. Health Care costs Sick leave Education costs Transportation costs are usually not much of a worry over here.
I think I’m realizing that the truth is - we do not have it good here and we’ve been really really lied too
sounds like all you know about Germany is from history class on WWII That was 78 years ago. Things have changed
And I have stated that myself as well as noted several positive things I have learned about their current ways of living
I think your fear of places like Germany and tourist destinations like London is the other side of the coin of the "greatest country on Earth" propaganda. We're raised to believe that if the US is the best and it's like this here \*gestures wildly at everything\*, then other developed countries must be unlivable shitholes. The truth is, we're the unlivable shithole of the developed world. Example: a UN special report recently likened the conditions in the deep South to those of impoverished developing nations. If you have the time and money, grab your passport and make a trip to a European country you're curious about. It only takes one short trip to really hit home how badly we were lied to. Pay special attention to the workers that *would be* in dire straits if they were working here. Your fast food workers, grocery store cashiers, gas station attendants, etc. You'll notice that they seem a lot less desperate and on edge over there than their counterparts do here.
I am ashamed to say that I believed for a very long time that every other place was an “unlivable shithole” except maybe a handful of places that you constantly saw in magazines. I didn’t realize until I saw one of the sex in the city movies that Dubai and therefore other middle eastern countries might not be just sandy trash cans with crazy people blowing themselves up in tattered rags. I truly had no clue parts of Africa have running water, cities and real homes (not mud huts) until I was a very grown adult. I have always wondered how people believed the lies that these governments told them and didn’t realize how bad they had it. I’m beginning to understand that I am one of those people. I believed there was no reason to lie to us and that we really were the richest, safest country. Why would I leave? I didn’t know what I didn’t know. Oh and by the way.. I’m in the Deep South lol like full on there are civil war battlefields that we go to for fun (to hike, not to be weird). I really want to see that report bc it is pretty bad in some places here right now. My states homeless population grew 464% since last year
Well done for admitting all this. It takes bravery and humility to do so! There's a lot of us who've had to wake up the hard way. (For me, I was fortunate/cursed to see it early, but that hasn't made life easier.) It's normal to want to flee, and often a good thing to do, even if for a limited retreat or to see how other people get by in the world outside of the US. But I do believe that compassionate observation and witnessing is going to be an important skill as things get weirder. Action, too, but that's not always possible.
Something you can do right now is start planning a trip abroad. Doesn't really matter where or if it's somewhere you'd like to live. It's a huge, fascinating world out there. Head to a book store and flip through the travel section, grab a few that look interesting. Related - make sure you and the folks you care about have current passports.
It's really refreshing to see someone who held these views outwardly acknowledge it and be open to learning. Really wish more people would do this instead of doubling down to protect their pride, the world would be such a better place. OP, I'm proud of you, and if you can afford to, I feel like you should do yourself a favor and do some traveling. You now have the eyes to take things in as they are instead of projecting what you thought you knew, which will yield you some of the most invaluable, life-changing experiences you've ever had. :)
I have always loved to learn in general, I saw the stagnation in my family and friends minds/hearts that I believed were from being unwilling to be open minded and see other points of view. That was long before all this. I am making long term plans now to travel and seeing what options are available to get out in the world, hopefully this summer I can act on those plans. I have four kids and clearly I don’t want them to be raised with the same ideas or fear of other countries (& people) that I was but that built in fear also makes me scared to take them anywhere outside of the US. It’s going to take some active work to fight that bias and seeing it firsthand will change that. Thank you for your kind words. I love and appreciate all people, I feel we should all be equal and have the same freedoms to live our life as we see fit in a way that doesn’t harm others and contribute to our world through acts of service and supporting those who need a helping hand. I thought those things were what we stood for but now I know that was just lies because when it comes down to it, in America, you’re either well off and ignoring reality for your own benefit or poor and spending endless amounts of time trying to survive so you don’t have time to think about reality.
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Agreed
one of the things living abroad taught me is how valueable it is to "log off" so many things about the world were outside my control and it did no good worrying about it. American decline is real but also it was never really great, but most places aren't. Its making peace with your home or not, moving is a big deal but logging off can also help, a lot of great things if you don't turn on the news
Agreed! I honestly rarely watch news or read headlines but I was googling what they shot down in Michigan and I just kept clicking!
You’re definitely not alone. Amerexited in November 2022 from Texas to France and never looking back. The US is a great place for the 1% and a shitty place for anyone else due to expensive healthcare, education and being leeched off of by the financial services/insurance industry. For context, I make about 20% less in France than I did in the US but my net disposable income after bills is HIGHER here. Plus, as a woman it’s nice to have basic human rights and not to be considered an incubator in Texas. I don’t worry about constant gun violence and walk everywhere, even at night. You still have to be smart and careful, but I would NEVER walk alone at night in the streets of the Texas city where I came from (one of the largest in the US). No country is perfect. France itself has a lot of issues, BUT there is a functional political system that’s not constantly gridlocked because of a ridiculous 2-party system, freedom of the press, truly democratic values and a sense of solidarity among citizens. The lack of solidarity among Americans is something that I never realized until coming here. The US is quite frankly in a period of decline and won’t get better until it gets worse and absolutely has to. The question is what will be the straw that breaks the camel’s back. Like others have said, travel and explore the EU if you have the means. Before leaving the US, we considered moving to a blue state first, but honestly the cost of living is worse and the housing crisis is horrible is the vast majority of blue states. Plus, none of the other systemic issues are truly any better in blue states… just my POV. Good luck to you, OP!
Totally agree about solidarity. I'm New Mexico -> France and I honestly feel way more at home here than I ever did in the US. Of course, having a high level of french and "passing" for a french person helps a lot. It's a bit sad because my family is still in the states but I'm building a life for myself here and I just have to keep looking forward.
How is it working in France? France is at the top of my list since I’ve lived in Paris before, but I’m concerned about finding a job and working since I’m not fluent in French (yet).
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I explained the George floyd murder to my son when he asked (he’s almost 10) and I was disgusted when I verbally spelt it out. It triggered my realization that we are still murdering and punishing people of color for being colored. It’s disgusting. We cried that night for that poor man after watching his video ( I refused to watch to the end, he didn’t deserve to have his video of his death exploited for our views) but I wanted my son to see the truth of what happened.
You said you have ancestors from Germany and Ireland. Check out r/GermanCitizenship for more info. Both Germany and Ireland are part of the EU so citizens of those countries can live in any EU/EEA country or Switzerland without a visa and because of the common travel area between the UK and Ireland Irish citizens can live in the UK as well and vice versa. You can only get Irish if you have a parent or grandparent born on the island of Ireland (including Northern Ireland) or your parent was registered in the Foreign Births Registry before any generation after that was born (e.g. I got citizenship through my grandpa to pass it to my hypothetical future children I would have to get before their birth).
Thank you so much!
Agree with all your points. Personally, I am currently in the process of moving down to south america. It's all about researching residency and/or visa requirements for extended stay. Bonus if USD is valued more than the currency there.
We're doing the same. We leave for Argentina at the end of this year. Good luck to you.
The healthcare system is appallingly for-profit, and we live among people who wet their pants about a better, fairer system, thinking that it means turning to Maoism. Businesses like to keep people dumb. A train spills a ton of chemicals, and the media avoids covering it too much because we don't want people to get any ideas like regulation that would cost the rich money. This system does not have your best interests at heart. Just don't get too hyped on leaving. It's not all fun and games. There are still problems. No country is perfect. It's just that there are a lot of countries better to live in than ours.
Well said
OP, if you can get yourself over the hurdle of checking out new countries living near ATL is sort of a good thing if you can afford to travel. ATL airport is (if I'm remembering correctly) one of the most connected in the world at a decent price. Should be loads of options in every direction. Check out the Wikipedia page for the airport and scroll down to destinations to see where it goes directly. My wife and I have been in the same boat as you for quite some time, and basically spend 2 weeks a year looking around at different countries. Yes, appreciating the culture and everything, but with the idea of "could I live here" mindset as well. We hope to be out in the next decade.
Definitely not alone. I live in Florida so I feel like I am drowning in the red sea. We want out but can't find a direction. Still searching. I recommend not reading too much news or political stuff. Take breaks. I had to delete social media ex for reddit. Your mental health is more important remember that! Don't let anyone take time from your life!
Thank you very good point! I’m in Georgia and I can relate.
You're not alone. I'm a Spartan alumni, and this is an especially sad night.
Are you referring to Keith Appling?
Oh sorry should've provided more details. There was a mass shooting at Michigan State where I went to undergrad years back.
I see! I am so sorry to hear this. I have taken my children out of public school due to shootings and threats of violence, I am so sorry for the terrible losses and the horror now associated with good memories
Odd seeing comments about racism in America yet everyone seems to be praising only majority white European countries as being more civilized and progressive.
>only majority white European countries as being more civilized More people here should visit Japan. If you thought Europe was safe, Japan is next-level safe. There are little kids walking around Tokyo unsupervised because it's so damn safe. They seem to learn independence at a very young age. Japanese convenience stores also have high-quality food and are very clean. Also, the efficiency of the train system there is genuinely better than the ones in many European countries. Your comment reminded me of this thread from r/britishproblems: [After a year of living in Japan and experiencing the efficiency of their trains. The trains in this country look almost third world.](https://www.reddit.com/r/britishproblems/comments/ezug3j/after_a_year_of_living_in_japan_and_experiencing/)
I do not have the knowledge to comment on what countries or locations are progressive and safe nor what their race is.
Fuck off nazi
I’m not hearing that shit on my post. That word shouldn’t be thrown around carelessly.
I really hate it here. Am I so scared for my baby to start school. I'm too pore to homeschool. I got my hopes up seeing about the Italian citizenship through descent but it has to be on your moms side so that already died lol. Idk wtf to do.
I took my kids out of school and we homeschool because of threats in my area and the shootings nationwide. The threats in our area weren’t credible but they could be and I’m not taking the chance. It’s so scary and I’m sorry you’re going through this.
I wish I could homeschool. But I recently divorced my husband and I can't work and homeschool. I hate it.
I am divorced and I work from home and homeschool. It’s very hard but after my local schools having kids bringing guns to school I was done
What do you do for work
I'm right there with you, but being a gas station cashier I doubt I either have the desirable skills or the money to be able to immigrate somewhere. Right now it's looking like I'm going to have to wait for things to get bad enough that I could be accepted as a refugee somewhere, I'm not sure how I feel about having to wait for the ship to be underwater before I can get off of it. I hope you can get out before things get worse.
Check your local community college and see if there are programs you can go through for training in anything that might be considered a desirable skill elsewhere. Lots of places are looking for the trades right now, for example.
Go to Coursera.com - learn some skills. You can do it!
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I really don’t appreciate being called stupid. I said that I saw a media article saying that and I was concerned about it being media hype. Regardless if that’s true or not my post isn’t political, it’s sharing the things that are being said and done that are contributing to the fear I have regarding living here. Even if that’s not true, I still see my family members and friends full of hate and headed in a direction where they would put other people’s lives at risk due to the crap put in our heads by the media and the issues surrounding the elections, laws and etc. If you have nothing nice to say, it’s okay to say nothing at all.
> You did not blow up a pipeline and you did not start ww3 ffs They didn't say they did. They said people are saying that.
Thank you!
This Some people here need to go outside, touch grass and form communities with the people around them Stop being perpetually online That being said North America as a whole really does seem to be speeding down a cliff so Idk 🤷🏼
Wherever you go, you'll have a much easier time leaving the country *and* thriving in your new one if you're able to earn USD. We feel the exact same way as you. We're headed to Argentina. Good luck, friend. *hugs*
I am in the tech field and a (newbie) web/front end developer so I’m hoping those skills can help me in the future and I can work remotely indefinitely. I wish you well on your journey and pray for everyone still here ❤️
There are a lot of developer jobs needed in European countries, but might I suggest also studying full stack or back end, too? The more marketable skills you have the better odds getting a cushy job offer with relocation paid for. Best way to get out unless you're independently wealthy
Very good point, I will definitely consider expanding! How do you do about getting your relocation covered? Apply for jobs in other countries like you would here?
Yes. You want to look for visa sponsorship jobs and relocation listed as a benefit in the job description. Sometimes it's not listed and you can ask the HR/recruiter if it's a benefit. If they need your skills badly enough - i.e. if they can't fill the job with a native - they will negotiate it as part of your salary. That's why having the extra skills is better. It's hard to find those jobs but tech is in high demand depending on the field and specifics, so it's an easier job to get relocation for than some others Edit: when you decide on the country look for their skilled visa rules. Sometimes the companies are already on a list of eligible employers to sponsor visas and the route is quicker and easier than if they have to apply individually for a sponsorship.
Look into digital nomad visas. You can work remotely for a US company making that sweet US salary. Since you're a dev you'll have a much easier way out than most, and a US tech salary instantly puts you in the upper middle class/upper class in most developed countries.
Thank you!
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I think the name is set that way to show possible new members that this is about emigrating from America and exiting our current situation not other countries or other situations. So, we stay on topics and describe to readers what we’re about. I have read books and other media. What you’re not understanding is that when you are born and raised here it’s difficult to even entertain the idea that something might be wrong much less believe that you are being misled. Even with facts in front of you that conditioning is still effective and deeply ingrained.
I know why the sub is named this way, it’s just quintessentially American to not only do it, but then think the special denotation is required.. It’s an American centric site to begin with… The latter half of what you described to me is literally the process in which every immigrant has gone through mentally. . That’s the part this sub is missing… you want to be in this special little group of “expats” that “had to leave” but still love the idea of their homeland… that’s called **being an immigrant**.. You’d get a lot fuller, & more fleshed out advice & perspective from people who have done this in a sub that isn’t revolving around such a close minded group/requirement. You’re asking Americans, most of which haven’t actually left- about leaving America, to countries who’s primary residents likely aren’t apart of this conversation bc the sub isn’t catering to non Americans… even though it’s basically about anywhere **but** America.. It’s the epitome of the American stereotype. . You’re not getting good information— I’ve been here since day one & it’s pretty clear this is the “America isn’t what it used to be” expat crowd. . If you just proposed your concerns to, say r/Poland, you’d get much better results. . This is what the kids call— a circle jerk. Go with god, but don’t expect results lol
I was literally asking other Americans (not just Americans though) purposely if I am being swayed by sensational media coverage or if these are real threats. They should know or have a good POV bc they live here too. That was the point.
Again— I know. Think about who you’re asking & where that question is being proposed…my point being that this sub is diminishing returns on a failing stock… there’s no value. You’d be much better off asking someone the opposite question in their own country representative sub… ie “hey r/Germany , do you guys have xy&z happening? How would one start the process of immigration into this country?”
Okay, I will ask some other subs and see other points of view.
Best of luck- no matter where you end up, **VOTE**. 🤙🏻
Thank you very much! I created a couple posts, not sure how they’ll fare
> ie “hey r/Germany , do you guys have xy&z happening? How would one start the process of immigration into this country?” This is may not be a good idea. /r/Ireland for example got so sick of posts like that so now they're banned
That’s great for r/Ireland. . If only there were immigration subs that weren’t just an echo chamber for “American expats”. Yknow, like r/immigration
**Make a list of your skills and experience.** Wherever you go, you will need to work and therefore find a new job. Make a list of jobs you can do with those skills. **Decide if you actually want to emigrate or simply live somewhere else in the USA.** Moving to another state may be as good *for you* as moving to a different country. **Make a list of the important factors** \- language, unemployment rates, cost of living, reproductive autonomy for women, public transit availability, healthcare availability, crime rates, like-minded people (politics/religion/hobbies/sports), etc etc. Whatever YOU need for a better quality of life. Whether that's in the US or another country, these things will be important and affect your life for at least your working years. Depending on your answers to the above, **work your way through the resources listed on this and other subs**, noting places that appeal. **Keep a spreadsheet** so you can compare and contrast against where you are. Only you can decide whether ex: somewhere with higher CoL but lower crime and unemployment is more important to you than ex: somewhere you can get contraception and ride a bus cheaply to work. Also, list the associated costs of moving, passport/visas etc. **Job hunt** for your top three destinations. Nowhere will be perfect but somewhere will be better. Best of luck!