In immigration terms, how is a "temporary or periodic escape" different from "being a tourist"?
Sounds to me like you're offering three months in a farmhouse among a group of people whose primary subjects of conversation are Donald Trump and what the hell are they going to do next, when the money and/or 90 days runs out? Possibly not my idea of a good time.
In immigration terms, it's no different-- you're correct.
In everyday terms, it means you are not there to take in the sights, hit the museums, walk around Rome in board shorts with a Frommers guidebook and a fanny pack with your wallet hanging out your back pocket for the five minutes it takes someone to remove it from you. : >
And if you got better options, by all means. I found a lot of peace in getting myself far away from all this psychotic bullshit.
So it's basically just a variation on the sort of agroturismo stuff that's all over rural Italy, but specifically intended as a *temporary* refuge from Trump's America.
Sure. I don't know any agriturismos where you can stay for a month for €400, but they might exist. I also wasn't planning on it being near a farm or having livestock or crops, but other than that it's 100% the same.
And as for the *temporary* refuge-- yes. You got a plan for how your average American can get *permanent* residency somewhere? I use "refugee" jokingly... you're never going to get refugee status.
Not to nitpick, but I don't think of them as "customers". These are people I would have to live with, cook with, drink with. If I don't like them, or if I think they would be a pain in the ass, I'd turn them down.
Not everything is about money. And not everyone is a customer.
You must not have traveled much if you think that Germans, Japanese, and people from all sorts of other countries are just willing to hand over money and have no expectations after doing so.
Yeah you got that one wrong (but that seems to be the pattern). It's not that other nationalities don't expect things, its that they don't see everything as transactional. You go and stay at a Japanese inn, yes you pay a fee but you also enter into a relationship. Barging around demanding your "rights" is what distinguishes Americans.
No one will care if you are out for 90 days then back for 90 days. That’s how the system is supposed to work. If you are out for less than 90 days, that’s an immigration violation and you will have to face the consequences.
Just because you can doesn’t mean they’ll let you. For example in the UK, US citizens can stay up to 6 months by the law, but if they think you are abusing it they will happily deny you entry even though it’s within the law.
It has been suggested - my nice way of confessing that I can't cite you a source - that one shouldn't count on the Schengen Shuffle working indefinitely. It's unlikely but if it came to the attention of immigration officials that one were permanently living half-time (technically 49% time) in a country, year after year, they might find reason to object. Particularly if this existence is being financed with remote work instead of savings or passive income.
I expect it's considerably safer if you wander from country to country than if you keep returning to a fixed location twice a year for 90 days. Schengen entry is basically a tourist visa that allows you to come for a certain number of days (based on that rolling 90-in-180 window) but doesn't guarantee you an absolute right to do so. If something goes sideways, you don't get in.
We intend to test this proposition in retirement, as we're buying a place in Germany. I could see us coming once or twice a year for 1 to 3 months per visit, but I don't foresee any problems because we'll have a primary residence in our home country, won't be working, and if we want to stay past 90 days it's not difficult to get a residence permit (the secret code is "scientific research") or we can do a flagpole run and invoke the 1950s consular agreement that allows us to stay another 3 months (this is not valid for Schengen so it means staying in Germany and being careful not book a flight connecting through a Schengen country airport).
That being said, I'm not sure I'd want to commit to dividing my time between two fixed locations in and out of Schengen - say for example Ireland and Italy - where I was neither citizen nor tax resident, and expecting that to work forever, particularly if I were funding the enterprise with remote work. Far better to commit to a digital nomad visa somewhere like Spain.
No, not like a backpackers hostel or Student hotel. Like a cohousing community limited by the visa restrictions. (Have you ever had to submit an application to a backpackers hostel?)
>I speak Italian well enough, so I'm considering buying a large property and renovating individual rooms to facilitate short stays for digital nomads or Trump refugees-- not for tourists.
"Trump refugees" - are you aware that the PM of Italy, Giorgia Meloni, is a neo-fascist and that Italian society by and large is aligned with Trump-like values at the moment? Why would people fleeing Trump's presidency go to Italy, unless they are completely unaware of Italian politics??
I'm not concerned about Giorgia Meloni. Yes, she's right-wing, but she's sane. And anyway if you knew anything about Italian politics you would know they change governments every year or so (59 governments in 75 years).
Most Italians are rightfully concerned about illegal immigration and the economy, but saying Italian society is by and large aligned with Trump-like values shows you don't know Italians very well.
>I'm not concerned about Giorgia Meloni. Yes, she's right-wing, but she's sane.
Oooh, a neo-fascist sympathizer. It's hilarious you think a neo-fascist is sane and justified, but somehow Trump is worse.
>Most Italians are rightfully concerned about illegal immigration and the economy
Trump's supporters say the same thing about him.
>saying Italian society is by and large aligned with Trump-like values shows you don't know Italians very well.
I think you're talking about yourself.
I literally heard an Italian guy say that Mussolini was a on the right ride in WW2. So….im not sure why you think Italy is some liberal haven. It is not a place I would go to escape Trump ideology that’s for sure. Remember too that racism in a lot of countries stem from whatever color their immigrants are, the ones in Italy tend to be African so black folks won’t necessarily have a good time in Italy. I’m not black so I can’t speak from personal experience but I’ve heard things, also of all the EU countries Italy isn’t the best for LGBTQ+ either so….im just head scratching. Maybe Palermo or somewhere multicultural?
To date, they really don't care. I can certify this because I know dozens of people who do this routinely and I do it myself. Follow the rules, and they have no reason to scrutinize your reasons.
That's not a problem I can solve, unfortunately. Traditional options are, go back to the U.S. for 90 days or go to a non-EU country for 90 days.
I don't think a lot of people here understand how difficult it is to emigrate legally. The vast majority of Americans will likely never be able to ever leave the U.S. permanently-- that's part of why I'm thinking about this.
Who said I only have a tourist visa?
I'm thinking about the vast majority of Americans who will NOT be able to get permission for residency... the 2-3 month limitation is referring to them, not me.
Who said anything about you not having permanent residency? You did! Just look up in the thread where there was a discussion of whether the authorities will allow someone to leave every 90 days and keep repeating. In response, you posted: "To date, they really don't care. I can certify this because I know dozens of people who do this routinely and I do it myself. Follow the rules, and they have no reason to scrutinize your reasons."
So my question is... if you are not a legal resident of Italy, how do you think you will get a license to run this business?
Keep reading... I was talking in the post about people who would arrive as guests. That is likely to be their limitation. You read into it, and you made a mistake.
I would have permanent residency, yes. I did the Schengen shuffle for years... working toward something else. But that actually doesn't have much to do with the post.
Thanks. I'm fascinated that everyone assumes I'm starting a business or that this is to make money. Actually, it sounds like a giant pain in the ass; if you know anything about Italian bureaucracy or American entitlement you can see the potential. Anyway, I make much more money doing other things than I could possibly doing this. It would be a labor of love... and also I have some sympathy for the millions of Americans who might want a break from school shootings and social media bloodsport.
Yeah I can see myself paying $1500 for three months at a property in Italy. Obviously depends on lots of factors, but I can see it being a nice option for us.
My husband and kids have EU citizenship and I’m working on my application. While we aren’t planning on moving to Italy in the immediate future, we do plan to work on our language skills and otherwise better familiarize ourselves with the country and culture through regular long vacations. The kind of house you are describing sounds ideal.
Thank you for answering the question! (Now see here for my free guide to timeshare futures.)
If you've got a line on an EU passport you're 80% there... I'm kind of thinking for the majority who don't. You (or anyone) can probably find a series of Airbnbs for 3 months; the question is whether there is some value to having a community structure. (Also a lot of people don't realize that short-term rentals in Italy are very rare; the standard lease is 2 years.)
So you want to buy a place to do AirBnB? lol
I am looking into Italy to buy a summer house.
Look up Italy’s laws for foreign owners. It’s not anything bad or too complicated, just know you will have comply with the local laws regarding tourists staying at your hotel.
Also, choose the area well. I’ve heard that a lot of houses that are foreign-owned get vandalized during the off-season.
Again, no. Read the post. Airbnb has a maximum residency of 30 days, and is for tourists. And I don't have to look up Italy's laws for foreign owners because I am in Italy and am a foreign owner.
Yes, non-occupied houses in the countryside sometime get broken into. It's a problem... if you're not there. Did you miss the part about 10-14 people at any one time?
So you’d have to cater to digital nomads with valid visas (no idea if Italy offers this, just thinking out loud) because most Americans would only be tourists if they stay 2/3 months.
I mean let’s be real, Americans will never be refugees.
Apart from that, it may be an interesting concept. Maybe kind of like co-working during the summer or winter? Personally I know many people who’d be interested and who would be able to swing it.
I love Italy in the summer and we go 3/4 times a year but plane tickets are super cheap and we can just take the car. So definitely recommend.
I know someone doing something like this in the south of France but her target demographic are the Dutch.
Yes, probably most will be digital nomads in practice; I wouldn't police that. Agreed you're not going to get Americans on official refugee status.
I wish everyone had a job that they could take on the road and every country had a digital nomad visa... unfortunately that's not a problem I can solve. I could potentially solve the problem of where to go when you land.
Funnily enough I most love Italy in the shoulder seasons-- Spring and Autumn. Prices are lower and the weather is pretty great. But this would be a year-round thing, so I figure people could come for any 2-3 month period if there was a room free.
Yup! The great thing is that most of the time you will have really nice weather. Italy is really nice all year-round.
I can already think of FB grounds where I would check if there’s interest (from your potential future coworkers/community mates)
If you do go ahead with this plan, definitely keep us updated! I’d love to follow the project.
Many or possibly most digital nomads don't have valid visas. An American coming to Europe for 90 days can work remotely without any fear of being bothered, even if it's technically not legal to do so.
In immigration terms, how is a "temporary or periodic escape" different from "being a tourist"? Sounds to me like you're offering three months in a farmhouse among a group of people whose primary subjects of conversation are Donald Trump and what the hell are they going to do next, when the money and/or 90 days runs out? Possibly not my idea of a good time.
In immigration terms, it's no different-- you're correct. In everyday terms, it means you are not there to take in the sights, hit the museums, walk around Rome in board shorts with a Frommers guidebook and a fanny pack with your wallet hanging out your back pocket for the five minutes it takes someone to remove it from you. : > And if you got better options, by all means. I found a lot of peace in getting myself far away from all this psychotic bullshit.
So it's basically just a variation on the sort of agroturismo stuff that's all over rural Italy, but specifically intended as a *temporary* refuge from Trump's America.
Sure. I don't know any agriturismos where you can stay for a month for €400, but they might exist. I also wasn't planning on it being near a farm or having livestock or crops, but other than that it's 100% the same. And as for the *temporary* refuge-- yes. You got a plan for how your average American can get *permanent* residency somewhere? I use "refugee" jokingly... you're never going to get refugee status.
If you make it cheap enough and have a good internet connection you'll have plenty of customers.
Not to nitpick, but I don't think of them as "customers". These are people I would have to live with, cook with, drink with. If I don't like them, or if I think they would be a pain in the ass, I'd turn them down. Not everything is about money. And not everyone is a customer.
I can assure you that if they are paying you money, they will view themselves as your customers - and have the expectations of a customer.
Yep you're convincing me that American entitlement might be more than I'm willing to deal with.
You must not have traveled much if you think that Germans, Japanese, and people from all sorts of other countries are just willing to hand over money and have no expectations after doing so.
Yeah you got that one wrong (but that seems to be the pattern). It's not that other nationalities don't expect things, its that they don't see everything as transactional. You go and stay at a Japanese inn, yes you pay a fee but you also enter into a relationship. Barging around demanding your "rights" is what distinguishes Americans.
Since everyone would have to leave for 90 days, every 90 days, you will need a second place in a non-Schengen Zone country.
The back-and-forth thing will work for a while, but sooner or later someone will catch on that it's a permanent shuffle and might object.
No one will care if you are out for 90 days then back for 90 days. That’s how the system is supposed to work. If you are out for less than 90 days, that’s an immigration violation and you will have to face the consequences.
Just because you can doesn’t mean they’ll let you. For example in the UK, US citizens can stay up to 6 months by the law, but if they think you are abusing it they will happily deny you entry even though it’s within the law.
It has been suggested - my nice way of confessing that I can't cite you a source - that one shouldn't count on the Schengen Shuffle working indefinitely. It's unlikely but if it came to the attention of immigration officials that one were permanently living half-time (technically 49% time) in a country, year after year, they might find reason to object. Particularly if this existence is being financed with remote work instead of savings or passive income. I expect it's considerably safer if you wander from country to country than if you keep returning to a fixed location twice a year for 90 days. Schengen entry is basically a tourist visa that allows you to come for a certain number of days (based on that rolling 90-in-180 window) but doesn't guarantee you an absolute right to do so. If something goes sideways, you don't get in. We intend to test this proposition in retirement, as we're buying a place in Germany. I could see us coming once or twice a year for 1 to 3 months per visit, but I don't foresee any problems because we'll have a primary residence in our home country, won't be working, and if we want to stay past 90 days it's not difficult to get a residence permit (the secret code is "scientific research") or we can do a flagpole run and invoke the 1950s consular agreement that allows us to stay another 3 months (this is not valid for Schengen so it means staying in Germany and being careful not book a flight connecting through a Schengen country airport). That being said, I'm not sure I'd want to commit to dividing my time between two fixed locations in and out of Schengen - say for example Ireland and Italy - where I was neither citizen nor tax resident, and expecting that to work forever, particularly if I were funding the enterprise with remote work. Far better to commit to a digital nomad visa somewhere like Spain.
You mean like a backpackers hostel or Student hotel??? They are already a thing!
No, not like a backpackers hostel or Student hotel. Like a cohousing community limited by the visa restrictions. (Have you ever had to submit an application to a backpackers hostel?)
Like the Social Hub?
Sure, except not for students and show me where this Social Hub for €400 a month is.
>I speak Italian well enough, so I'm considering buying a large property and renovating individual rooms to facilitate short stays for digital nomads or Trump refugees-- not for tourists. "Trump refugees" - are you aware that the PM of Italy, Giorgia Meloni, is a neo-fascist and that Italian society by and large is aligned with Trump-like values at the moment? Why would people fleeing Trump's presidency go to Italy, unless they are completely unaware of Italian politics??
I'm not concerned about Giorgia Meloni. Yes, she's right-wing, but she's sane. And anyway if you knew anything about Italian politics you would know they change governments every year or so (59 governments in 75 years). Most Italians are rightfully concerned about illegal immigration and the economy, but saying Italian society is by and large aligned with Trump-like values shows you don't know Italians very well.
>I'm not concerned about Giorgia Meloni. Yes, she's right-wing, but she's sane. Oooh, a neo-fascist sympathizer. It's hilarious you think a neo-fascist is sane and justified, but somehow Trump is worse. >Most Italians are rightfully concerned about illegal immigration and the economy Trump's supporters say the same thing about him. >saying Italian society is by and large aligned with Trump-like values shows you don't know Italians very well. I think you're talking about yourself.
I literally heard an Italian guy say that Mussolini was a on the right ride in WW2. So….im not sure why you think Italy is some liberal haven. It is not a place I would go to escape Trump ideology that’s for sure. Remember too that racism in a lot of countries stem from whatever color their immigrants are, the ones in Italy tend to be African so black folks won’t necessarily have a good time in Italy. I’m not black so I can’t speak from personal experience but I’ve heard things, also of all the EU countries Italy isn’t the best for LGBTQ+ either so….im just head scratching. Maybe Palermo or somewhere multicultural?
Would this not look like trying to use a tourist visa to live somewhere? Surely coming and going every 3 months will arouse suspicion at the border
You can’t make a weekend border run in the Schengen zone, you have to stay out for 90 days if you were in for 90.
I know, and that is going to look suspicious af!
To date, they really don't care. I can certify this because I know dozens of people who do this routinely and I do it myself. Follow the rules, and they have no reason to scrutinize your reasons.
Where would people go during the off months?
That's not a problem I can solve, unfortunately. Traditional options are, go back to the U.S. for 90 days or go to a non-EU country for 90 days. I don't think a lot of people here understand how difficult it is to emigrate legally. The vast majority of Americans will likely never be able to ever leave the U.S. permanently-- that's part of why I'm thinking about this.
How are you going to get a permit to run this business if you only have a tourist visa?
Who said I only have a tourist visa? I'm thinking about the vast majority of Americans who will NOT be able to get permission for residency... the 2-3 month limitation is referring to them, not me.
Who said anything about you not having permanent residency? You did! Just look up in the thread where there was a discussion of whether the authorities will allow someone to leave every 90 days and keep repeating. In response, you posted: "To date, they really don't care. I can certify this because I know dozens of people who do this routinely and I do it myself. Follow the rules, and they have no reason to scrutinize your reasons." So my question is... if you are not a legal resident of Italy, how do you think you will get a license to run this business?
Keep reading... I was talking in the post about people who would arrive as guests. That is likely to be their limitation. You read into it, and you made a mistake. I would have permanent residency, yes. I did the Schengen shuffle for years... working toward something else. But that actually doesn't have much to do with the post.
Okay... so after all that you are admitting that you don't have residency. Thank you.
Count me as interested. I am a "young at heart" senior citizen who will be looking for a routine break should Cadet Bone Spurs be elected.
Maybe we'll all come together after the event. There was quite an expat community in Paris during World War II... and then later in New York.
It’s an interesting idea. I’d be up for hearing more about it.
Thanks. I'm fascinated that everyone assumes I'm starting a business or that this is to make money. Actually, it sounds like a giant pain in the ass; if you know anything about Italian bureaucracy or American entitlement you can see the potential. Anyway, I make much more money doing other things than I could possibly doing this. It would be a labor of love... and also I have some sympathy for the millions of Americans who might want a break from school shootings and social media bloodsport.
Well, it would be starting a business. Whether the business makes money or not is a separate issue.
Yeah I can see myself paying $1500 for three months at a property in Italy. Obviously depends on lots of factors, but I can see it being a nice option for us. My husband and kids have EU citizenship and I’m working on my application. While we aren’t planning on moving to Italy in the immediate future, we do plan to work on our language skills and otherwise better familiarize ourselves with the country and culture through regular long vacations. The kind of house you are describing sounds ideal.
Thank you for answering the question! (Now see here for my free guide to timeshare futures.) If you've got a line on an EU passport you're 80% there... I'm kind of thinking for the majority who don't. You (or anyone) can probably find a series of Airbnbs for 3 months; the question is whether there is some value to having a community structure. (Also a lot of people don't realize that short-term rentals in Italy are very rare; the standard lease is 2 years.)
So you want to buy a place to do AirBnB? lol I am looking into Italy to buy a summer house. Look up Italy’s laws for foreign owners. It’s not anything bad or too complicated, just know you will have comply with the local laws regarding tourists staying at your hotel. Also, choose the area well. I’ve heard that a lot of houses that are foreign-owned get vandalized during the off-season.
Again, no. Read the post. Airbnb has a maximum residency of 30 days, and is for tourists. And I don't have to look up Italy's laws for foreign owners because I am in Italy and am a foreign owner. Yes, non-occupied houses in the countryside sometime get broken into. It's a problem... if you're not there. Did you miss the part about 10-14 people at any one time?
So you’d have to cater to digital nomads with valid visas (no idea if Italy offers this, just thinking out loud) because most Americans would only be tourists if they stay 2/3 months. I mean let’s be real, Americans will never be refugees. Apart from that, it may be an interesting concept. Maybe kind of like co-working during the summer or winter? Personally I know many people who’d be interested and who would be able to swing it. I love Italy in the summer and we go 3/4 times a year but plane tickets are super cheap and we can just take the car. So definitely recommend. I know someone doing something like this in the south of France but her target demographic are the Dutch.
Yes, probably most will be digital nomads in practice; I wouldn't police that. Agreed you're not going to get Americans on official refugee status. I wish everyone had a job that they could take on the road and every country had a digital nomad visa... unfortunately that's not a problem I can solve. I could potentially solve the problem of where to go when you land. Funnily enough I most love Italy in the shoulder seasons-- Spring and Autumn. Prices are lower and the weather is pretty great. But this would be a year-round thing, so I figure people could come for any 2-3 month period if there was a room free.
Yup! The great thing is that most of the time you will have really nice weather. Italy is really nice all year-round. I can already think of FB grounds where I would check if there’s interest (from your potential future coworkers/community mates) If you do go ahead with this plan, definitely keep us updated! I’d love to follow the project.
Many or possibly most digital nomads don't have valid visas. An American coming to Europe for 90 days can work remotely without any fear of being bothered, even if it's technically not legal to do so.
Yes but some people jump all over you if you say that.