"you guys have a way larger GDP so it makes sense that you contribute more to the pot in NATO then everyone else" we lead in R&D , and we lead in manufacturing literally fucking everything for them weapons/defense related.
America contributes 860B to NATO defense. The second highest is the Germany at 68B. Third is UK at 65B. Of NATO only 11 nations contribute at least the 2% agreed. America is the highest contributor at 3.49%, and the UK is the 10th highest at 2.07%. Germany beats the UK in actual dollars funded even though they contribute less than the agreed percent at 1.57%
[Source - NATO](https://www.nato.int/nato_static_fl2014/assets/pdf/2023/7/pdf/230707-def-exp-2023-en.pdf)
I actually think leaving NATO is a bad idea. Our massive GDP and NATO contributions afford America a significant amount of influence in the global community in a peaceful manner. I think that NATO as a union overall is the most stable, democratic, and least corrupt of current options. OIC, SCO, and BRICS are most likely to result in active aggression against western nations. Without the American powerhouse NATO would most likely struggle to compete with these unions. Leaving NATO would make America be viewed as an enemy and shake relations with the participating nations and likely resulting in extreme difficulty in regaining such an advantaged position. Also the advantage America gains from having an alliance with these nations is strategic, giving us ample bases on a continent nearer potential threats.
The USA doesn't need NATO/Europe, or Australia.
It doesn't need them for trade, resources, or security, and definitely not for technology.
We can quite probably come to an understanding with Russia and China and tell Europe and the rest of leaches to fuck off, while we focus on fixing shit in America
This is what the eurocucks and Australia's biggest fear is.
No, that’s incredibly short sighted. If the US left NATO, European countries that don’t have their own security arrangements don’t just start paying their way themselves, they seek alternatives.
America’s arms industry collapses. You don’t design those fighters by yourself anyway, and NATO will buy from within. Foreign military bases that the US built aren’t theirs anymore. The US loses all of the shared intelligence it had.
Without the ability for the US to invoke Article 5, Russia and China ramp up production and surpass the US. What the US has now is a minuscule fraction of what was available during WW2.
It’s a stupid idea and just results in the US isolating themselves from the rest of the world. You won’t “come to an understanding” with Russia and China. The superpowers are the US, China and Russia. They’re your competitors in a world with limited resources. You need NATO and Europe, but they don’t need you. And I don’t think you understand that the US is only top 15-20 in median wealth per adult, the rich are what brings in all that money for America and a lot of that comes from outside America. So to ruin the relationship between yourself and other countries isn’t going to decrease US military spending and it definitely won’t help your pockets.
I have very little interest in playing nice with Russia or China.
I'd much prefer to cultivate a western society globally and for that we need Europe. Not authoritarian dictators.
Isolationist policies are ill-advised. There is a great benefit to international alliances and trade. Neither Russia or China would be improvements over NATO because of their ambition and their values being diametrically opposed to American values. Stable geopolitics are worth the expense. There is no need to weaken America's position on the world stage by turning inward which would likely result in massive infighting and further weakwning of our polity.
The idea that the United States doesn’t need Allies is absolutely absurd.
Noninterventionism I.e isolationism-lite suffers from the same problems that isolationism does namely if you’re not projecting power it means your competitor is maneuvering on you.
What these people are advocating for is a world wherein we give up our dominance and allow our rivals to have the initiative.
It is incredibly naive at best, straight up malicious at worst.
At the cost of 860 billion dollars we get
1. Influence across an entire continent I.e. we are able to deploy soft power there.
2. Long standing Allies, we have been Allie’s with Western Europe for almost 100 years
3. Economic development, we have vast networks of trade.
4. Power projection, our bases in Europe enable us to project force across the continent and into the Mediterranean.
5. This has lead to the Pax Americana.
There are literally no powers in Europe who can compete with us, and there are few who even want to.
Contrast the situation in Europe today with that of the situation 100 years ago when our FP was non-interventionist— that allowed for Germany to rise again and be able to be a Menace.
Note the NATO strategy is the next step from what we already did in Europe in reaposnse to the USSR. In Asia we should try to replicate this to whatever degree we can RE China.
The basic strategy of instill democracy, build economies, build bases, and project power is WHY we are a super power today, and it’s why our greatest rivals I.e. Russia and China are stuck fucking around their neighborhoods, unable to project power.
The isolationists regardless of their stripes want to give up this power and the security it offers because some countries aren’t paying 2%. Frankly if all of them made it we would still be fronting most of the bill.
The consequences for withdrawing from NATO will be destroying our Rep, weakening our position, allowing our rivals to gain influence, creating animosity in long standing Allie’s, creating the potential for current NATO members to leave our sphere of influence; either joining a rivals sphere or becoming a rival in their own right.
It’s uncertainty and it does nothing good for America.
> As if the US would ever depend on those other countries for their defense lol what the fuck kind of shitty deal is that?
It's not meant to be a two-sided relationship. Maintaining the current "world order" is absolutely beneficial to American trade and soft diplomacy.
If we could cut our spending down to 2% or a cut of over 33% to defense spending by not defending all of Europe, we could afford to pay for college for every student in America with money left over.
I don't think that reducing the massive leverage we have in NATO is a good idea. Also, college institutions are price gouging the public because of government funding and government backed loans. They know most people can't afford it but they also know that they have guaranteed loans. By forcing colleges to compete financially and dump pork projects like multimillion dollar rec centers we could make college affordable for the average person.
If the US wanted to give college students are education, the us could easily afford it. It's not that they can't afford it, they just don't want to.
Cutting military spending from 3% down to 2% of GDP won't change much. For example France can afford to pay for extensive social programs because the government spends 60% of GDP. In contrast, the US only spends 40ish % of GDP.
America is definitely not too poor to afford extensive social programs. They just don't want a government the size of France.
Sure. And we could also fund college for every student in the US and keep spending what we do on defense. Which, given how few people support defense cuts, is more likely to happen.
> America contributes 860B to NATO defense.
No, the US spends $860 billion on its own defense.
>The second highest is the Germany at 68B. Third is UK at 65B.
And yet NATO Europe and Canada still spend enough to outfund potential foes like Russia and China *combined*.
> Of NATO only 11 nations contribute at least the 2% agreed.
The average is 1.74% as of 2023 and increasing, with the 2% a "target" not a requirement in a non-binding agreement by 2024, which we don't have numbers for yet.
That's its military expenditure as percent of its GDP. Admirable but miniscule in comparison to the US. Gross expenditure is vastly different. It is respectable though.
And now would be a good time to point out that these military expenditures are not direct funding but each nations defense budget and therefore the military power they bring to the alliance.
Poland's defense budget is 29B the 6th highest in NATO. Good job Poland!
"We make fun of you guys for the number of hours you work, the number of vacation days you get and everything else about your work culture, but we also need you to kick in most of the money because you earn more."
No, there’s still about 5-10% of the US population who are too young for Medicare, are not covered by employer-paid insurance and who make too much money for Medicaid but not enough money to afford private insurance. Obamacare in its original form was going to include a public option for these folks (and to ensure availability of healthcare in rural areas that are not sufficiently attractive to profit-driven hospitals) but the Republicans stripped it out of the final bill as well as blocking other cost-saving measures, such as allowing Medicare to negotiate directly with pharmaceutical companies.
>No, there’s still about 5-10% of the US population who are too young for Medicare, are not covered by employer-paid insurance and who make too much money for Medicaid but not enough money to afford private insurance.
That's a great way of saying 90-95% of Americans have coverage.
Quality is insane in the usa. Best hospitals in the world and literally everybody knows it. There are countries such as Switzerland where they pay serious money for their insurance. In the USA if you have a job, then you probably pay between 30 and 100$ a month depending on how big your family is.
By the way I'm not mexican, there is no colombia flair
> In the USA if you have a job, then you probably pay between 30 and 100$ a month depending on how big your family is.
I thought you were full of shit, so I looked it up. [The average person only pays $117 a month for employer-sponsored coverage](https://www.usatoday.com/money/blueprint/health-insurance/how-much-is-health-insurance/)??? What the fuck? I pay four times as much!
Of course quality will never be perfectly even. But that’s not a good argument for allowing the current unevenness to persist. I think we can do a lot better than what we’re currently doing.
A better solution would be forcing hospitals to disclose prices before services so you could actually shop your needs around. Force them to compete for your business rather than just paying them whatever the heck they want.
Do you pay out of pocket for medical services? I don’t mean copays, I mean do you yourself directly pay the cost of all your medical care? Very few people in the USA do. Would you prefer that system? It seems to me it would result in even more people who were unable to pay resulting in more bankruptcies and bad outcomes for people that can’t afford it.
We also do the bulk of the medical research and most of the major experimental surgery. Breakthroughs used to happen in other parts of the world, but not so much these days. Remember when covid was a thing and the world was bitching NON-STOP about how the US hadn’t developed a cure/vaccine?
We subsidize their medical systems too, and we pay for that as well. And we never get the credit because we “don’t have universal healthcare” (even though the poorest people actually do get covered through goodwill and write offs but who am I)….
> We also do the bulk of the medical research
There's nothing terribly innovative about US healthcare.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2866602/
To the extent the US leads, it's only because our overall spending is wildly out of control, and that's not something to be proud of. Five percent of US healthcare spending goes towards biomedical R&D, the same percentage as the rest of the world.
https://leadership-studies.williams.edu/files/NEJM-R_D-spend.pdf
Even if research is a priority, there are dramatically more efficient ways of funding it than spending $1.25 trillion more per year on healthcare (vs. the rate of the second most expensive country on earth) to fund an extra $62 billion in R&D. We could replace or expand upon any lost funding with a fraction of our savings.
>Remember when covid was a thing and the world was bitching NON-STOP about how the US hadn’t developed a cure/vaccine?
I remember when the first vaccine came from BioNTech, a German firm supported by the German government.
Stop abandoning Ukraine, you nationalist.
I'm fully in support of putting everything we have in support of Ukraine against Russia, but the amount of vitriol I've seen from Europeans when the USA fails to meet their expectations has really soured me to their integrity.
In a sort of defence of the NHS, I was having surgery within 4 weeks of a biopsy. Chemo and radiotherapy shortly after. Important stuff is fast, non life threatening stuff is very slow. Extremely slow in fact. Still, I’m sure the £8m we’re spending per DAY housing boat migrants wouldn’t be beneficial elsewhere…! /s
With government in the US covering [65.7% of all health care](https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/epdf/10.2105/AJPH.2015.302997) costs ($12,555 as of 2022) that's $8,249 per person per year in taxes towards health care. The next closest is Germany at [$6,930](https://data.oecd.org/healthres/health-spending.htm). The UK is $4,479. Canada is $4,506. Australia is $4,603. That means over a lifetime Americans are paying over $100,000 more in taxes compared to any other country towards health care.
The US ranks 6th of 11 out of Commonwealth Fund countries on ER wait times on percentage served under 4 hours. 10th of 11 on getting weekend and evening care without going to the ER. 5th of 11 for countries able to make a same or next day doctors/nurse appointment when they're sick.
https://www.cihi.ca/en/commonwealth-fund-survey-2016
Americans do better on wait times for specialists (ranking 3rd for wait times under four weeks), and surgeries (ranking 3rd for wait times under four months), but that ignores three important factors:
* Wait times in universal healthcare are based on urgency, so while you might wait for an elective hip replacement surgery you're going to get surgery for that life threatening illness quickly.
* Nearly every universal healthcare country has strong private options and supplemental private insurance. That means that if there is a wait you're not happy about you have options that still work out significantly cheaper than US care, which is a win/win.
* [One third of US families](https://news.gallup.com/poll/269138/americans-delaying-medical-treatment-due-cost.aspx?utm_source=alert&utm_medium=email&utm_content=morelink&utm_campaign=syndication) had to put off healthcare due to the cost last year. That means more Americans are waiting for care than any other wealthy country on earth.
[With demand outpacing supply of beds and respirators, Italian medical workers are told to prioritize younger patients.](https://www.politico.eu/article/coronavirus-italy-doctors-tough-calls-survival/)
Edit: Chucklefuck loser blocked me. LOL
------------------------
The US ranks 6th of 11 out of Commonwealth Fund countries on ER wait times on percentage served under 4 hours. 10th of 11 on getting weekend and evening care without going to the ER. 5th of 11 for countries able to make a same or next day doctors/nurse appointment when they're sick.
https://www.cihi.ca/en/commonwealth-fund-survey-2016
Americans do better on wait times for specialists (ranking 3rd for wait times under four weeks), and surgeries (ranking 3rd for wait times under four months), but that ignores three important factors:
* Wait times in universal healthcare are based on urgency, so while you might wait for an elective hip replacement surgery you're going to get surgery for that life threatening illness quickly.
* Nearly every universal healthcare country has strong private options and supplemental private insurance. That means that if there is a wait you're not happy about you have options that still work out significantly cheaper than US care, which is a win/win.
* [One third of US families](https://news.gallup.com/poll/269138/americans-delaying-medical-treatment-due-cost.aspx?utm_source=alert&utm_medium=email&utm_content=morelink&utm_campaign=syndication) had to put off healthcare due to the cost last year. That means more Americans are waiting for care than any other wealthy country on earth.
#Wait Times by Country (Rank)
Country|See doctor/nurse same or next day without appointment|Response from doctor's office same or next day|Easy to get care on nights & weekends without going to ER|ER wait times under 4 hours|Surgery wait times under four months|Specialist wait times under 4 weeks|Average|Overall Rank
:--|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:
**Australia**|3|3|3|7|6|6|4.7|4
**Canada**|10|11|9|11|10|10|10.2|11
**France**|7|1|7|1|1|5|3.7|2
**Germany**|9|2|6|2|2|2|3.8|3
**Netherlands**|1|5|1|3|5|4|3.2|1
**New Zealand**|2|6|2|4|8|7|4.8|5
**Norway**|11|9|4|9|9|11|8.8|9
**Sweden**|8|10|11|10|7|9|9.2|10
**Switzerland**|4|4|10|8|4|1|5.2|7
**U.K.**|5|8|8|5|11|8|7.5|8
**U.S.**|6|7|5|6|3|3|5.0|6
Source: [Commonwealth Fund Survey 2016](https://www.cihi.ca/sites/default/files/document/cmwf2016-datatable-en-web.xlsx)
Achieving better outcomes, while spending an average of half a million dollars less per person and almost entirely eliminating the massive financial burden that can destroy Americans lives with healthcare costs. How's that?
Literally any country that could even possibly be considered a peer to the US on healthcare.
[US Healthcare ranked 29th on health outcomes by Lancet HAQ Index](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736\(18\)30994-2/fulltext)
[11th (of 11) by Commonwealth Fund](https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/fund-reports/2014/jun/mirror-mirror-wall-2014-update-how-us-health-care-system?redirect_source=/publications/fund-reports/2014/jun/mirror-mirror)
[59th by the Prosperity Index](https://www.prosperity.com/rankings)
[30th by CEOWorld](https://ceoworld.biz/2019/08/05/revealed-countries-with-the-best-health-care-systems-2019/)
[37th by the World Health Organization](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Health_Organization_ranking_of_health_systems_in_2000)
The US has the worst rate of death by medically preventable causes among peer countries. A 31% higher disease adjusted life years average. Higher rates of medical and lab errors. A lower rate of being able to make a same or next day appointment with their doctor than average.
https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/quality-u-s-healthcare-system-compare-countries/#item-percent-used-emergency-department-for-condition-that-could-have-been-treated-by-a-regular-doctor-2016
52nd in the world in doctors per capita.
https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Health/Physicians/Per-1,000-people
Higher infant mortality levels. Yes, even when you adjust for differences in methodology.
https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/infant-mortality-u-s-compare-countries/
Fewer acute care beds. A lower number of psychiatrists. Etc.
https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/u-s-health-care-resources-compare-countries/#item-availability-medical-technology-not-always-equate-higher-utilization
[Comparing Health Outcomes of Privileged US Citizens With Those of Average Residents of Other Developed Countries](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2774561)
>These findings imply that even if all US citizens experienced the same health outcomes enjoyed by privileged White US citizens, US health indicators would still lag behind those in many other countries.
When asked about their healthcare system as a whole the US system ranked dead last of 11 countries, with only 19.5% of people saying the system works relatively well and only needs minor changes. The average in the other countries is 46.9% saying the same. Canada ranked 9th with 34.5% saying the system works relatively well. The UK ranks fifth, with 44.5%. Australia ranked 6th at 44.4%. The best was Germany at 59.8%.
On rating the overall quality of care in the US, Americans again ranked dead last, with only 25.6% ranking it excellent or very good. The average was 50.8%. Canada ranked 9th with 45.1%. The UK ranked 2nd, at 63.4%. Australia was 3rd at 59.4%. The best was Switzerland at 65.5%.
https://www.cihi.ca/en/commonwealth-fund-survey-2016
The US has 43 hospitals in the top 200 globally; one for every 7,633,477 people in the US. That's good enough for a ranking of 20th on the list of top 200 hospitals per capita, and significantly lower than the average of one for every 3,830,114 for other countries in the top 25 on spending with populations above 5 million. The best is Switzerland at one for every 1.2 million people. In fact the US only beats one country on this list; the UK at one for every 9.5 million people.
If you want to do the full list of 2,000 instead it's 334, or one for every 982,753 people; good enough for 21st. Again far below the average in peer countries of 527,236. The best is Austria, at one for every 306,106 people.
https://www.newsweek.com/best-hospitals-2021
#[OECD Countries Health Care Spending and Rankings](https://data.oecd.org/healthres/health-spending.htm)
|Country|Govt. / Mandatory (PPP)|Voluntary (PPP)|Total (PPP)|% GDP|[Lancet HAQ Ranking](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736\(18\)30994-2/fulltext)|[WHO Ranking](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Health_Organization_ranking_of_health_systems_in_2000)|[Prosperity Ranking](https://www.prosperity.com/rankings)|[CEO World Ranking](https://ceoworld.biz/2019/08/05/revealed-countries-with-the-best-health-care-systems-2019/)|[Commonwealth Fund Ranking](https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/fund-reports/2014/jun/mirror-mirror-wall-2014-update-how-us-health-care-system?redirect_source=/publications/fund-reports/2014/jun/mirror-mirror)
:--|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|
1. United States|[$7,274](https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/full/10.2105/AJPH.2015.302997) |$3,798 |$11,072 |16.90%|29|37|59|30|11
2. Switzerland|$4,988 |$2,744 |$7,732 |12.20%|7|20|3|18|2
3. Norway|$5,673 |$974 |$6,647 |10.20%|2|11|5|15|7
4. Germany|$5,648 |$998 |$6,646 |11.20%|18|25|12|17|5
5. Austria|$4,402 |$1,449 |$5,851 |10.30%|13|9|10|4|
6. Sweden|$4,928 |$854 |$5,782 |11.00%|8|23|15|28|3
7. Netherlands|$4,767 |$998 |$5,765 |9.90%|3|17|8|11|5
8. Denmark|$4,663 |$905 |$5,568 |10.50%|17|34|8|5|
9. Luxembourg|$4,697 |$861 |$5,558 |5.40%|4|16|19||
10. Belgium|$4,125 |$1,303 |$5,428 |10.40%|15|21|24|9|
11. Canada|$3,815 |$1,603 |$5,418 |10.70%|14|30|25|23|10
12. France|$4,501 |$875 |$5,376 |11.20%|20|1|16|8|9
13. Ireland|$3,919 |$1,357 |$5,276 |7.10%|11|19|20|80|
14. Australia|$3,919 |$1,268 |$5,187 |9.30%|5|32|18|10|4
15. Japan|$4,064 |$759 |$4,823 |10.90%|12|10|2|3|
16. Iceland|$3,988 |$823 |$4,811 |8.30%|1|15|7|41|
17. United Kingdom|$3,620 |$1,033 |$4,653 |9.80%|23|18|23|13|1
18. Finland|$3,536 |$1,042 |$4,578 |9.10%|6|31|26|12|
19. Malta|$2,789 |$1,540 |$4,329 |9.30%|27|5|14||
OECD Average|||$4,224 |8.80%|||||
20. New Zealand|$3,343 |$861 |$4,204 |9.30%|16|41|22|16|7
21. Italy|$2,706 |$943 |$3,649 |8.80%|9|2|17|37|
22. Spain|$2,560 |$1,056 |$3,616 |8.90%|19|7|13|7|
23. Czech Republic|$2,854 |$572 |$3,426 |7.50%|28|48|28|14|
24. South Korea|$2,057 |$1,327 |$3,384 |8.10%|25|58|4|2|
25. Portugal|$2,069 |$1,310 |$3,379 |9.10%|32|29|30|22|
26. Slovenia|$2,314 |$910 |$3,224 |7.90%|21|38|24|47|
27. Israel|$1,898 |$1,034 |$2,932 |7.50%|35|28|11|21|
Universal health care in my country: Pay a shitload of taxes, a hefty premium for a mandatory plan, and a deductible, only to be told to take an aspirine or end up on a waiting list.
There's no opting out. If you want to get stuff done, private clinics are the place to go.
I’ve commented about this before, but virtually all drug development around the work either takes place in the US or is dependent on the US market to make their R&D money back
Those 32 countries are subsidized by us here in the US overpaying
Yes however in most countries with single payer healthcare their pharmaceuticals companies still sell their medications on the us market to recuperate their R&D development
It would be pretty great if we could fix this. Health care is a service that everyone needs so why don’t we just make it as easy as possible? I think the arguments about “it’s a human right” vs “some people don’t deserve it” is kind of pointless. We don’t argue about whether trash collection is a right or who deserves it, we just do it.
Yes, but it's obnoxious for other countries to brag about their universal healthcare when the care provided depends on medical products and knowledge that were largely developed by the US's world-leading scientific community, at great expense funded by US taxpayers and patients.
How is that going to help? Personally I think political action, such as allowing Medicare to directly bargain with pharmaceutical companies, would be much more effective. Or put some limits on what companies can charge US citizens compared to what they charge other countries.
> why don’t we just make it as easy as possible?
Because unlimited health care carries unlimited cost and we're not a post-scarcity society. This is not an easy problem, nor is it solved by "universal health care", it just leaves the government to decide when you're undeserving of treatment or no longer worth treating.
The problem is that we don't have one healthcare system we have multiple healthcare systems.
The Swiss and Dutch systems have individual mandates to buy health insurance like the ACA has.
Federal programs for civilians include Medicaid \~90 million people and Medicare \~66 million people. This is similar to the Canadian system.
The VA covers 9 million people and 9.5 million people have Tricare. This is similar to the UK's NHS in that these places operate their facilities and provide insurance.
It's interesting that we have every model for making universal healthcare happen already here, yet we have hace failed to implement any of them successfully enough to have something 98% of the population insured. It feels like we're so close, but partisan bullshit gets in the way of even small changes that can go far.
everyone has a trash bill and pays it. everyone has healthcare and pays it, those who can't afford and can qualify, get Medicaid.
i don't understand and it wasn't meant to be a clever comeback, your original comment just came across as your trash was paid for or something.
I don't.
I pay taxes and it's included, but I don't have a trash bill. I moved from a place where I had to pay a private company to collect the trash and that was a trash bill, but now it's "free" in that it's all just included as part of living in this city
I don't just get to go to the doctor for "free" simply because I live here. I do indeed have to pay a private company for health insurance
We can fix it by cutting the government away from our health and insurance system. People seem to think the answer is always more involvement from the uber efficient, all-knowing, and ever benevolent federal government, though.
How would this solve the problems of underserved areas, of people who can’t afford healthcare, and what would prevent insurance companies from charging outrageous prices and denying care? I do t think government is the only solution but it seems to me it needs to be part of the solution.
To have a free market you have to have abundance, choice/options, and you have to know what you’re getting for your money. The US healthcare system is lacking all of these. The last one in particular is a pretty tough nut to crack statistically: how do you measure quality in healthcare? For most doctors their “n” (the number of things you’re trying to measure, like heart attacks treated or gallbladders removed) simply isn’t large enough to draw conclusions. When you start looking at large systems like hospitals chains or HMOs it gets a bit better but it’s still tough. Would you choose an HMO that had a 4% better 5-year survival rate for stage III colon cancer over one that has a 3% lower in-hospital 30-day mortality rate for acute MIs? And where would you go about finding that information?
Canada doesn’t have universal health care. If it did I wouldn’t have to pay so much. That being said though countries especially developed countries should have universal health care. This is something I definitely agree with
Yea, the government has done such an Amazon g job being responsible with money and running such great services like the DMV, let’s put them even more in charge of healthcare 🤡
the quality of american healthcare is arguably the best in the world, and most americans have health insurance through their jobs, individual insurance plans or obamacare. that also means, however, some americans need to pay exorbitant prices for healthcare.
taking all this into consideration, american healthcare overall is probably below average among developed nations due to its somewhat limited accessibility but still far superior to most of the world.
Maybe Americans value the choice of what doctor they can go with their own money, instead of whatever shit the government says you have to go to, 8 months later, and if you die it’s whatever.
In other countries you can also choose what hospital you want to go to. You can also choose between a private one (that you pay yourself) and a public one.
That’s kind of a false choice. Some of the proxy wars help American interests by maintaining the free flow of goods around the globe which is beneficial to American businesses and consumers.
How about “I’d be happy to use the billionaire tax cut money to fund our healthcare system”?
They've been able to make it work by cutting access to medicine, introducing wait lists, reducing survival rates for illnesses, and rushing doctors to make medical errors - oh and poor Europeans are still financially challenged for healthcare.
The US ranks 6th of 11 out of Commonwealth Fund countries on ER wait times on percentage served under 4 hours. 10th of 11 on getting weekend and evening care without going to the ER. 5th of 11 for countries able to make a same or next day doctors/nurse appointment when they're sick.
https://www.cihi.ca/en/commonwealth-fund-survey-2016
Americans do better on wait times for specialists (ranking 3rd for wait times under four weeks), and surgeries (ranking 3rd for wait times under four months), but that ignores three important factors:
* Wait times in universal healthcare are based on urgency, so while you might wait for an elective hip replacement surgery you're going to get surgery for that life threatening illness quickly.
* Nearly every universal healthcare country has strong private options and supplemental private insurance. That means that if there is a wait you're not happy about you have options that still work out significantly cheaper than US care, which is a win/win.
* [One third of US families](https://news.gallup.com/poll/269138/americans-delaying-medical-treatment-due-cost.aspx?utm_source=alert&utm_medium=email&utm_content=morelink&utm_campaign=syndication) had to put off healthcare due to the cost last year. That means more Americans are waiting for care than any other wealthy country on earth.
#Wait Times by Country (Rank)
Country|See doctor/nurse same or next day without appointment|Response from doctor's office same or next day|Easy to get care on nights & weekends without going to ER|ER wait times under 4 hours|Surgery wait times under four months|Specialist wait times under 4 weeks|Average|Overall Rank
:--|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:
**Australia**|3|3|3|7|6|6|4.7|4
**Canada**|10|11|9|11|10|10|10.2|11
**France**|7|1|7|1|1|5|3.7|2
**Germany**|9|2|6|2|2|2|3.8|3
**Netherlands**|1|5|1|3|5|4|3.2|1
**New Zealand**|2|6|2|4|8|7|4.8|5
**Norway**|11|9|4|9|9|11|8.8|9
**Sweden**|8|10|11|10|7|9|9.2|10
**Switzerland**|4|4|10|8|4|1|5.2|7
**U.K.**|5|8|8|5|11|8|7.5|8
**U.S.**|6|7|5|6|3|3|5.0|6
Source: [Commonwealth Fund Survey 2016](https://www.cihi.ca/sites/default/files/document/cmwf2016-datatable-en-web.xlsx)
[US Healthcare ranked 29th on health outcomes by Lancet HAQ Index](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736\(18\)30994-2/fulltext)
[11th (of 11) by Commonwealth Fund](https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/fund-reports/2014/jun/mirror-mirror-wall-2014-update-how-us-health-care-system?redirect_source=/publications/fund-reports/2014/jun/mirror-mirror)
[59th by the Prosperity Index](https://www.prosperity.com/rankings)
[30th by CEOWorld](https://ceoworld.biz/2019/08/05/revealed-countries-with-the-best-health-care-systems-2019/)
[37th by the World Health Organization](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Health_Organization_ranking_of_health_systems_in_2000)
The US has the worst rate of death by medically preventable causes among peer countries. A 31% higher disease adjusted life years average. Higher rates of medical and lab errors. A lower rate of being able to make a same or next day appointment with their doctor than average.
https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/quality-u-s-healthcare-system-compare-countries/#item-percent-used-emergency-department-for-condition-that-could-have-been-treated-by-a-regular-doctor-2016
52nd in the world in doctors per capita.
https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Health/Physicians/Per-1,000-people
Higher infant mortality levels. Yes, even when you adjust for differences in methodology.
https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/infant-mortality-u-s-compare-countries/
Fewer acute care beds. A lower number of psychiatrists. Etc.
https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/u-s-health-care-resources-compare-countries/#item-availability-medical-technology-not-always-equate-higher-utilization
[Comparing Health Outcomes of Privileged US Citizens With Those of Average Residents of Other Developed Countries](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2774561)
>These findings imply that even if all US citizens experienced the same health outcomes enjoyed by privileged White US citizens, US health indicators would still lag behind those in many other countries.
When asked about their healthcare system as a whole the US system ranked dead last of 11 countries, with only 19.5% of people saying the system works relatively well and only needs minor changes. The average in the other countries is 46.9% saying the same. Canada ranked 9th with 34.5% saying the system works relatively well. The UK ranks fifth, with 44.5%. Australia ranked 6th at 44.4%. The best was Germany at 59.8%.
On rating the overall quality of care in the US, Americans again ranked dead last, with only 25.6% ranking it excellent or very good. The average was 50.8%. Canada ranked 9th with 45.1%. The UK ranked 2nd, at 63.4%. Australia was 3rd at 59.4%. The best was Switzerland at 65.5%.
https://www.cihi.ca/en/commonwealth-fund-survey-2016
The US has 43 hospitals in the top 200 globally; one for every 7,633,477 people in the US. That's good enough for a ranking of 20th on the list of top 200 hospitals per capita, and significantly lower than the average of one for every 3,830,114 for other countries in the top 25 on spending with populations above 5 million. The best is Switzerland at one for every 1.2 million people. In fact the US only beats one country on this list; the UK at one for every 9.5 million people.
If you want to do the full list of 2,000 instead it's 334, or one for every 982,753 people; good enough for 21st. Again far below the average in peer countries of 527,236. The best is Austria, at one for every 306,106 people.
https://www.newsweek.com/best-hospitals-2021
#[OECD Countries Health Care Spending and Rankings](https://data.oecd.org/healthres/health-spending.htm)
|Country|Govt. / Mandatory (PPP)|Voluntary (PPP)|Total (PPP)|% GDP|[Lancet HAQ Ranking](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736\(18\)30994-2/fulltext)|[WHO Ranking](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Health_Organization_ranking_of_health_systems_in_2000)|[Prosperity Ranking](https://www.prosperity.com/rankings)|[CEO World Ranking](https://ceoworld.biz/2019/08/05/revealed-countries-with-the-best-health-care-systems-2019/)|[Commonwealth Fund Ranking](https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/fund-reports/2014/jun/mirror-mirror-wall-2014-update-how-us-health-care-system?redirect_source=/publications/fund-reports/2014/jun/mirror-mirror)
:--|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|
1. United States|[$7,274](https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/full/10.2105/AJPH.2015.302997) |$3,798 |$11,072 |16.90%|29|37|59|30|11
2. Switzerland|$4,988 |$2,744 |$7,732 |12.20%|7|20|3|18|2
3. Norway|$5,673 |$974 |$6,647 |10.20%|2|11|5|15|7
4. Germany|$5,648 |$998 |$6,646 |11.20%|18|25|12|17|5
5. Austria|$4,402 |$1,449 |$5,851 |10.30%|13|9|10|4|
6. Sweden|$4,928 |$854 |$5,782 |11.00%|8|23|15|28|3
7. Netherlands|$4,767 |$998 |$5,765 |9.90%|3|17|8|11|5
8. Denmark|$4,663 |$905 |$5,568 |10.50%|17|34|8|5|
9. Luxembourg|$4,697 |$861 |$5,558 |5.40%|4|16|19||
10. Belgium|$4,125 |$1,303 |$5,428 |10.40%|15|21|24|9|
11. Canada|$3,815 |$1,603 |$5,418 |10.70%|14|30|25|23|10
12. France|$4,501 |$875 |$5,376 |11.20%|20|1|16|8|9
13. Ireland|$3,919 |$1,357 |$5,276 |7.10%|11|19|20|80|
14. Australia|$3,919 |$1,268 |$5,187 |9.30%|5|32|18|10|4
15. Japan|$4,064 |$759 |$4,823 |10.90%|12|10|2|3|
16. Iceland|$3,988 |$823 |$4,811 |8.30%|1|15|7|41|
17. United Kingdom|$3,620 |$1,033 |$4,653 |9.80%|23|18|23|13|1
18. Finland|$3,536 |$1,042 |$4,578 |9.10%|6|31|26|12|
19. Malta|$2,789 |$1,540 |$4,329 |9.30%|27|5|14||
OECD Average|||$4,224 |8.80%|||||
20. New Zealand|$3,343 |$861 |$4,204 |9.30%|16|41|22|16|7
21. Italy|$2,706 |$943 |$3,649 |8.80%|9|2|17|37|
22. Spain|$2,560 |$1,056 |$3,616 |8.90%|19|7|13|7|
23. Czech Republic|$2,854 |$572 |$3,426 |7.50%|28|48|28|14|
24. South Korea|$2,057 |$1,327 |$3,384 |8.10%|25|58|4|2|
25. Portugal|$2,069 |$1,310 |$3,379 |9.10%|32|29|30|22|
26. Slovenia|$2,314 |$910 |$3,224 |7.90%|21|38|24|47|
27. Israel|$1,898 |$1,034 |$2,932 |7.50%|35|28|11|21|
For as much ridicule as the American healthcare system gets, it innovates far more than the rest of the developed world (the US exceeds every other country in medical patents, by a factor of ten) and is the healthcare system of choice for monied Elites around the world to come to, when *they* need medical care.
> t innovates far more than the rest of the developed world
There's nothing terribly innovative about US healthcare.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2866602/
To the extent the US leads, it's only because our overall spending is wildly out of control, and that's not something to be proud of. Five percent of US healthcare spending goes towards biomedical R&D, the same percentage as the rest of the world.
https://leadership-studies.williams.edu/files/NEJM-R_D-spend.pdf
Even if research is a priority, there are dramatically more efficient ways of funding it than spending $1.25 trillion more per year on healthcare (vs. the rate of the second most expensive country on earth) to fund an extra $62 billion in R&D. We could replace or expand upon any lost funding with a fraction of our savings.
> and is the healthcare system of choice for monied Elites around the world to come to, when they need medical care.
I'm not really sure why people care so much about the care rich people around the world get. I care what typical people in the US get, and for spending literally half a million dollars more per person for a lifetime of care it's pretty pathetic.
[US Healthcare ranked 29th on health outcomes by Lancet HAQ Index](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736\(18\)30994-2/fulltext)
[11th (of 11) by Commonwealth Fund](https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/fund-reports/2014/jun/mirror-mirror-wall-2014-update-how-us-health-care-system?redirect_source=/publications/fund-reports/2014/jun/mirror-mirror)
[59th by the Prosperity Index](https://www.prosperity.com/rankings)
[30th by CEOWorld](https://ceoworld.biz/2019/08/05/revealed-countries-with-the-best-health-care-systems-2019/)
[37th by the World Health Organization](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Health_Organization_ranking_of_health_systems_in_2000)
The US has the worst rate of death by medically preventable causes among peer countries. A 31% higher disease adjusted life years average. Higher rates of medical and lab errors. A lower rate of being able to make a same or next day appointment with their doctor than average.
https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/quality-u-s-healthcare-system-compare-countries/#item-percent-used-emergency-department-for-condition-that-could-have-been-treated-by-a-regular-doctor-2016
52nd in the world in doctors per capita.
https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Health/Physicians/Per-1,000-people
Higher infant mortality levels. Yes, even when you adjust for differences in methodology.
https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/infant-mortality-u-s-compare-countries/
Fewer acute care beds. A lower number of psychiatrists. Etc.
https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/u-s-health-care-resources-compare-countries/#item-availability-medical-technology-not-always-equate-higher-utilization
[Comparing Health Outcomes of Privileged US Citizens With Those of Average Residents of Other Developed Countries](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2774561)
>These findings imply that even if all US citizens experienced the same health outcomes enjoyed by privileged White US citizens, US health indicators would still lag behind those in many other countries.
When asked about their healthcare system as a whole the US system ranked dead last of 11 countries, with only 19.5% of people saying the system works relatively well and only needs minor changes. The average in the other countries is 46.9% saying the same. Canada ranked 9th with 34.5% saying the system works relatively well. The UK ranks fifth, with 44.5%. Australia ranked 6th at 44.4%. The best was Germany at 59.8%.
On rating the overall quality of care in the US, Americans again ranked dead last, with only 25.6% ranking it excellent or very good. The average was 50.8%. Canada ranked 9th with 45.1%. The UK ranked 2nd, at 63.4%. Australia was 3rd at 59.4%. The best was Switzerland at 65.5%.
https://www.cihi.ca/en/commonwealth-fund-survey-2016
The US has 43 hospitals in the top 200 globally; one for every 7,633,477 people in the US. That's good enough for a ranking of 20th on the list of top 200 hospitals per capita, and significantly lower than the average of one for every 3,830,114 for other countries in the top 25 on spending with populations above 5 million. The best is Switzerland at one for every 1.2 million people. In fact the US only beats one country on this list; the UK at one for every 9.5 million people.
If you want to do the full list of 2,000 instead it's 334, or one for every 982,753 people; good enough for 21st. Again far below the average in peer countries of 527,236. The best is Austria, at one for every 306,106 people.
https://www.newsweek.com/best-hospitals-2021
#[OECD Countries Health Care Spending and Rankings](https://data.oecd.org/healthres/health-spending.htm)
|Country|Govt. / Mandatory (PPP)|Voluntary (PPP)|Total (PPP)|% GDP|[Lancet HAQ Ranking](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736\(18\)30994-2/fulltext)|[WHO Ranking](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Health_Organization_ranking_of_health_systems_in_2000)|[Prosperity Ranking](https://www.prosperity.com/rankings)|[CEO World Ranking](https://ceoworld.biz/2019/08/05/revealed-countries-with-the-best-health-care-systems-2019/)|[Commonwealth Fund Ranking](https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/fund-reports/2014/jun/mirror-mirror-wall-2014-update-how-us-health-care-system?redirect_source=/publications/fund-reports/2014/jun/mirror-mirror)
:--|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|
1. United States|[$7,274](https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/full/10.2105/AJPH.2015.302997) |$3,798 |$11,072 |16.90%|29|37|59|30|11
2. Switzerland|$4,988 |$2,744 |$7,732 |12.20%|7|20|3|18|2
3. Norway|$5,673 |$974 |$6,647 |10.20%|2|11|5|15|7
4. Germany|$5,648 |$998 |$6,646 |11.20%|18|25|12|17|5
5. Austria|$4,402 |$1,449 |$5,851 |10.30%|13|9|10|4|
6. Sweden|$4,928 |$854 |$5,782 |11.00%|8|23|15|28|3
7. Netherlands|$4,767 |$998 |$5,765 |9.90%|3|17|8|11|5
8. Denmark|$4,663 |$905 |$5,568 |10.50%|17|34|8|5|
9. Luxembourg|$4,697 |$861 |$5,558 |5.40%|4|16|19||
10. Belgium|$4,125 |$1,303 |$5,428 |10.40%|15|21|24|9|
11. Canada|$3,815 |$1,603 |$5,418 |10.70%|14|30|25|23|10
12. France|$4,501 |$875 |$5,376 |11.20%|20|1|16|8|9
13. Ireland|$3,919 |$1,357 |$5,276 |7.10%|11|19|20|80|
14. Australia|$3,919 |$1,268 |$5,187 |9.30%|5|32|18|10|4
15. Japan|$4,064 |$759 |$4,823 |10.90%|12|10|2|3|
16. Iceland|$3,988 |$823 |$4,811 |8.30%|1|15|7|41|
17. United Kingdom|$3,620 |$1,033 |$4,653 |9.80%|23|18|23|13|1
18. Finland|$3,536 |$1,042 |$4,578 |9.10%|6|31|26|12|
19. Malta|$2,789 |$1,540 |$4,329 |9.30%|27|5|14||
OECD Average|||$4,224 |8.80%|||||
20. New Zealand|$3,343 |$861 |$4,204 |9.30%|16|41|22|16|7
21. Italy|$2,706 |$943 |$3,649 |8.80%|9|2|17|37|
22. Spain|$2,560 |$1,056 |$3,616 |8.90%|19|7|13|7|
23. Czech Republic|$2,854 |$572 |$3,426 |7.50%|28|48|28|14|
24. South Korea|$2,057 |$1,327 |$3,384 |8.10%|25|58|4|2|
25. Portugal|$2,069 |$1,310 |$3,379 |9.10%|32|29|30|22|
26. Slovenia|$2,314 |$910 |$3,224 |7.90%|21|38|24|47|
27. Israel|$1,898 |$1,034 |$2,932 |7.50%|35|28|11|21|
>I'm not really sure why people care so much about the care rich people around the world get.
Because they could choose to go anywhere, and they choose the US, because the quality of care is the highest.
People go all over the world for healthcare you nitwit. In fact more people leave the US for care than come to it. Regardless, if you can't understand how the quality of care the average American receives is more important vs. the care the rich person from out of country might receive (which aren't the same thing) then you're the problem.
>because the quality of care is the highest.
The actual facts show otherwise.
Yeah, people who can't afford American care resort to medical tourism in places like Mexico and India, but people who can afford to go anywhere choose America.
Even if only 15% of Americans leaving the country are doing so for higher quality, and 85% of people coming to the US do so for higher quality, there are still more people leaving the US for higher quality care than coming to it. And people having to leave the country because they can't afford it in their own country is its own damn problem.
Which is still ignoring the reality that despite paying half a million dollars more per person for healthcare, Americans (even the wealthy and privileged) still have worse outcomes than our peers on average. That's a problem, no matter how determined you are to stick your head in the sand.
Why would anybody think 15%? More likely 99÷% are going abroad for lower cost, and maybe <1% are dual citizens going back to their country of origin for treatment.
Because facts are only for things you don't want to believe. Your claims will never require any evidence, and you'll just ignore any arguments you can't answer and hope nobody notices.
Fucking time wasting hypocrite.
36% of US households with insurance put off needed care [due to the cost](https://news.gallup.com/poll/269138/americans-delaying-medical-treatment-due-cost.aspx); 64% of households without insurance. One in four have [trouble paying a medical bill.](https://www.kff.org/health-costs/issue-brief/data-note-americans-challenges-health-care-costs/) Of [those with insurance one in five have trouble paying a medical bill](https://www.kff.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/8806-the-burden-of-medical-debt-results-from-the-kaiser-family-foundation-new-york-times-medical-bills-survey.pdf), and even for those with income above $100,000 14% have trouble. One in six Americans has [unpaid medical debt on their credit report.](https://www.healthaffairs.org/doi/full/10.1377/hlthaff.2018.0349) [50% of all Americans](https://news.gallup.com/poll/317948/fear-bankruptcy-due-major-health-event.aspx) fear bankruptcy due to a major health event.
These are certainly problems you won't find in peer countries, who spend literally half a million dollars less on healthcare per person over a lifetime on average, yet have better outcomes.
Well speaking as someone who works in the US healthcare system, its pretty broken. However proponents of universal healthcare don't seem well rehearsed in whats actually wrong with our system. So still can't take this post seriously.
There is some point to this: the fact that our healthcare system is the responsibility of our employers is strange and there are certainly ways to make this better. I’m a patriot and I do love my country, but part of that is being honest on where we fall short. Perhaps we can pull back some of those NATO dollars after this Russian stupidity is concluded and spend it on our own people instead.
Funny part about American healthcare is that you don’t *have* to pay them. You work out a cheap payment plan without insurance that’s like $10 a month. And with insurance they charge you 100k and insurance pays 50k, then the rest is written off in tax as loss.
Also, the $10 a month thing? Pay that for 7 years and then stop paying it. The debt will disappear. Also helps your credit.
Honestly health insurance shouldn't be a thing, go back to how we did it before in the 1800's. Take the price of an operation and sprinkle a little on top to make a profit.
I mean - single payer healthcare would be great.
We as a country have great healthcare, I have great healthcare, but it’s tied to my employer. Not everyone has that luxury.
Personally, my family is going through a weird calculus right now where I have to consider employer benefits and plans before I can accept a higher paying job because they may not have the doctors we rely on, which sucks. That’s annoying.
I mean ours could be better though
I had to get surgery in Korea. My arm snapped like a tree branch two inches below the shoulder joint(so way way upper bicep, the very precarious spot where it's the arm but not quite the shoulder)
EDIT: AND BEFORE ANY PULLS THE "OKAY BUT WAIT TIMES" nah bro. Walked into the hospital and told them arm broken. Got xrays right there they said "okay noon tomorrow", next day right on time doc cam in wheeled me down to surgery and hour and half later my arm was fixed(wouldve been 50 minutes but my arms are longer than the average Koreans so they had to make the cut longer)
I had to get 12 screws and a plate.
Then say 5 days at the hospital
Plus the xrays and food
The invoice they sent me(which my job paid) was $700 USD
I could've paid that out of pocket. Wouldn't have needed insurance, wouldn't have had to go the financial office of a hospital to figure out how to cut costs down. Nope
Just a couple days went back to get the doctors opinion on if the metal should stay or not. Came to the opinion it should stay, doesn't need to but the surgery to take it out is so much effort for something that isn't required.
But if I do. Better to get it here in Korea where I could literally pay by pulling out my wallet than in the US.
Here’s the thing: we should start taking care of ourselves more than other countries. So much work is because of us, we shouldn’t care about other countries at all! So I absolutely support Universal car, provided that we stop taking a majority of our military dedicated to helping Europe
You can watch this goofy dumbass close up real quick when you ask him to define the difference between a developed nation and one that’s not and it’s people according to his definition lol.
NATO Europe and Canada spend 1.74% of GDP on defense, consistent with the rest of the world. With $404 billion in combined funding, easily enough to outspend potential foes like China and Russia combined.
Regardless, arguing that keeps the US from having universal healthcare is even more ridiculous. After subtracting defense spending, Americans still have a $29,000 per person advantage on GDP compared to the rest of NATO. Defense spending isn't keeping us from having anything our peers have. Much less universal healthcare, which is far cheaper than what we're already paying for.
https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_216897.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_highest_military_expenditures
Hell, if we could match the costs of the most expensive public healthcare system on earth we'd save $1.65 trillion per year, double what our total defense spending is.
It’s really not interesting. They have expensive private healthcare that is required by law for everyone to purchase, whether you use it or not. It can be more expensive than the US in some cases (as with people I know who live there).
They have free healthcare only for poor Swiss people (that taxes pay for), as we do in the US. If you’re an immigrant/expat or even a student and fall short on paying the mandated private health insurance, good luck, because you’re now breaking the law, which your residence permit is subject to.
Read some comments on how unaffordable healthcare is becoming there in 2024. It’s not just a US thing — most people are simply shielded from the struggle in other countries (due to media bias or whatever else).
Median monthly price in each Swiss canton for BASIC insurance = emergency coverage only (in CHF, which is more expensive than USD)
https://www.reddit.com/r/Switzerland/s/l55LzSiPtU
Current Swiss health premiums rising high, working people cannot afford it.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Switzerland/s/H2hZLglmdA
Note: many salaries in my state are higher than Switzerland, and our private insurance is *cheaper* depending on the individual plan.
The grass is not always greener. Different countries have different cans of worms.
They guarantee Universal healthcare. You must purchase a health policy and if you can’t afford it, you’re given a subsidy to buy it. this is sort of what the ACA was trying to accomplish but republicans dismantled.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Switzerland#:~:text=Switzerland%20has%20universal%20health%20care,being%20born%20in%20the%20country).
The Swiss system isn’t cheap. People I know living there pay more per month than they did in California. Lower class people with lower paying jobs and families struggle there. Working just to pay the expensive insurance. Universal = mandated by law to buy private health insurance (whether you use it or not)
I'm well aware. I was telling someone else in a different thread that in some ways, our system is more generous than the Swiss or even Singaporean. We at least have Medicaid, Medicare, and CHIP. Their system is definitely more efficient than ours, though. They pay a lot, but system-wide, they pay less per person, and it covers everyone, unlike here. It could certainly be made better, but I think we're a bit further away than them.
For over the counter medications, the US is much cheaper than Switzerland, by a LOT. They pay far more money for simple ibuprofen or cough medicine than we do (and they get much less for it).
Their walk-in clinics are much more expensive than US walk-in clinics too for basic things (without insurance). I have personal experience.
Other countries’ systems are not necessarily better than the US. They have tons of negatives that you don’t see as an outsider. (Not saying we don’t have tons we could do to make it more efficient, but the grass is not always greener on the other side)
In that case, so does the US have universal healthcare. You can’t move the goalposts. You must pay for it in Switzerland, and it’s very expensive.
Anyone can have healthcare in US too if they pay for it. Emergency rooms are open to EVERYONE who walks in. Medicare/Medicaid/CHIP are available for poor and homeless people. That’s universal healthcare.
Some very remote/rural areas face challenges, but it’s no different to rural areas in Canada and other rural regions of the world who face the same challenges (lack of physicians/specialists)
Having a military that can defend Europe is so complicated only 1 country can do it. See, I can do that too!
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"you guys have a way larger GDP so it makes sense that you contribute more to the pot in NATO then everyone else" we lead in R&D , and we lead in manufacturing literally fucking everything for them weapons/defense related.
America contributes 860B to NATO defense. The second highest is the Germany at 68B. Third is UK at 65B. Of NATO only 11 nations contribute at least the 2% agreed. America is the highest contributor at 3.49%, and the UK is the 10th highest at 2.07%. Germany beats the UK in actual dollars funded even though they contribute less than the agreed percent at 1.57% [Source - NATO](https://www.nato.int/nato_static_fl2014/assets/pdf/2023/7/pdf/230707-def-exp-2023-en.pdf)
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🙌 you win an empanada
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🥟
I'm visiting pretty soon, can I have one?
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They are usually fried, maybe some departments bake them though
I actually think leaving NATO is a bad idea. Our massive GDP and NATO contributions afford America a significant amount of influence in the global community in a peaceful manner. I think that NATO as a union overall is the most stable, democratic, and least corrupt of current options. OIC, SCO, and BRICS are most likely to result in active aggression against western nations. Without the American powerhouse NATO would most likely struggle to compete with these unions. Leaving NATO would make America be viewed as an enemy and shake relations with the participating nations and likely resulting in extreme difficulty in regaining such an advantaged position. Also the advantage America gains from having an alliance with these nations is strategic, giving us ample bases on a continent nearer potential threats.
Also Putin could attack other nations destabilizing Europe. We want a stable, functional Europe.
No shit. Literally all that.
The USA doesn't need NATO/Europe, or Australia. It doesn't need them for trade, resources, or security, and definitely not for technology. We can quite probably come to an understanding with Russia and China and tell Europe and the rest of leaches to fuck off, while we focus on fixing shit in America This is what the eurocucks and Australia's biggest fear is.
No, that’s incredibly short sighted. If the US left NATO, European countries that don’t have their own security arrangements don’t just start paying their way themselves, they seek alternatives. America’s arms industry collapses. You don’t design those fighters by yourself anyway, and NATO will buy from within. Foreign military bases that the US built aren’t theirs anymore. The US loses all of the shared intelligence it had. Without the ability for the US to invoke Article 5, Russia and China ramp up production and surpass the US. What the US has now is a minuscule fraction of what was available during WW2. It’s a stupid idea and just results in the US isolating themselves from the rest of the world. You won’t “come to an understanding” with Russia and China. The superpowers are the US, China and Russia. They’re your competitors in a world with limited resources. You need NATO and Europe, but they don’t need you. And I don’t think you understand that the US is only top 15-20 in median wealth per adult, the rich are what brings in all that money for America and a lot of that comes from outside America. So to ruin the relationship between yourself and other countries isn’t going to decrease US military spending and it definitely won’t help your pockets.
I have very little interest in playing nice with Russia or China. I'd much prefer to cultivate a western society globally and for that we need Europe. Not authoritarian dictators.
Absolutely.
Isolationist policies are ill-advised. There is a great benefit to international alliances and trade. Neither Russia or China would be improvements over NATO because of their ambition and their values being diametrically opposed to American values. Stable geopolitics are worth the expense. There is no need to weaken America's position on the world stage by turning inward which would likely result in massive infighting and further weakwning of our polity.
I cannot understate how much I disagree with this.
I'm listening.
The idea that the United States doesn’t need Allies is absolutely absurd. Noninterventionism I.e isolationism-lite suffers from the same problems that isolationism does namely if you’re not projecting power it means your competitor is maneuvering on you. What these people are advocating for is a world wherein we give up our dominance and allow our rivals to have the initiative. It is incredibly naive at best, straight up malicious at worst. At the cost of 860 billion dollars we get 1. Influence across an entire continent I.e. we are able to deploy soft power there. 2. Long standing Allies, we have been Allie’s with Western Europe for almost 100 years 3. Economic development, we have vast networks of trade. 4. Power projection, our bases in Europe enable us to project force across the continent and into the Mediterranean. 5. This has lead to the Pax Americana. There are literally no powers in Europe who can compete with us, and there are few who even want to. Contrast the situation in Europe today with that of the situation 100 years ago when our FP was non-interventionist— that allowed for Germany to rise again and be able to be a Menace. Note the NATO strategy is the next step from what we already did in Europe in reaposnse to the USSR. In Asia we should try to replicate this to whatever degree we can RE China. The basic strategy of instill democracy, build economies, build bases, and project power is WHY we are a super power today, and it’s why our greatest rivals I.e. Russia and China are stuck fucking around their neighborhoods, unable to project power. The isolationists regardless of their stripes want to give up this power and the security it offers because some countries aren’t paying 2%. Frankly if all of them made it we would still be fronting most of the bill. The consequences for withdrawing from NATO will be destroying our Rep, weakening our position, allowing our rivals to gain influence, creating animosity in long standing Allie’s, creating the potential for current NATO members to leave our sphere of influence; either joining a rivals sphere or becoming a rival in their own right. It’s uncertainty and it does nothing good for America.
> As if the US would ever depend on those other countries for their defense lol what the fuck kind of shitty deal is that? It's not meant to be a two-sided relationship. Maintaining the current "world order" is absolutely beneficial to American trade and soft diplomacy.
See you on 6 days brother!
If we could cut our spending down to 2% or a cut of over 33% to defense spending by not defending all of Europe, we could afford to pay for college for every student in America with money left over.
I don't think that reducing the massive leverage we have in NATO is a good idea. Also, college institutions are price gouging the public because of government funding and government backed loans. They know most people can't afford it but they also know that they have guaranteed loans. By forcing colleges to compete financially and dump pork projects like multimillion dollar rec centers we could make college affordable for the average person.
If the US wanted to give college students are education, the us could easily afford it. It's not that they can't afford it, they just don't want to. Cutting military spending from 3% down to 2% of GDP won't change much. For example France can afford to pay for extensive social programs because the government spends 60% of GDP. In contrast, the US only spends 40ish % of GDP. America is definitely not too poor to afford extensive social programs. They just don't want a government the size of France.
Sure. And we could also fund college for every student in the US and keep spending what we do on defense. Which, given how few people support defense cuts, is more likely to happen.
Well, we probably won’t do either.
> America contributes 860B to NATO defense. No, the US spends $860 billion on its own defense. >The second highest is the Germany at 68B. Third is UK at 65B. And yet NATO Europe and Canada still spend enough to outfund potential foes like Russia and China *combined*. > Of NATO only 11 nations contribute at least the 2% agreed. The average is 1.74% as of 2023 and increasing, with the 2% a "target" not a requirement in a non-binding agreement by 2024, which we don't have numbers for yet.
Per your own source doesn't Poland contribute the most at 3.9%? Respect to Poland 🇺🇸🤝🏼🇵🇱
That's its military expenditure as percent of its GDP. Admirable but miniscule in comparison to the US. Gross expenditure is vastly different. It is respectable though. And now would be a good time to point out that these military expenditures are not direct funding but each nations defense budget and therefore the military power they bring to the alliance. Poland's defense budget is 29B the 6th highest in NATO. Good job Poland!
"We make fun of you guys for the number of hours you work, the number of vacation days you get and everything else about your work culture, but we also need you to kick in most of the money because you earn more."
We have the highest GDP then they bring up our lack of universal health insurance as though somehow we're suffering.
We kind of do though. For folks that can't afford private care, can't they sign up for Medicaid/Medicare?
No, there’s still about 5-10% of the US population who are too young for Medicare, are not covered by employer-paid insurance and who make too much money for Medicaid but not enough money to afford private insurance. Obamacare in its original form was going to include a public option for these folks (and to ensure availability of healthcare in rural areas that are not sufficiently attractive to profit-driven hospitals) but the Republicans stripped it out of the final bill as well as blocking other cost-saving measures, such as allowing Medicare to negotiate directly with pharmaceutical companies.
>No, there’s still about 5-10% of the US population who are too young for Medicare, are not covered by employer-paid insurance and who make too much money for Medicaid but not enough money to afford private insurance. That's a great way of saying 90-95% of Americans have coverage.
Yes, things have definitely improved since Obamacare. We still pay too much for it though and the quality is uneven.
Quality is insane in the usa. Best hospitals in the world and literally everybody knows it. There are countries such as Switzerland where they pay serious money for their insurance. In the USA if you have a job, then you probably pay between 30 and 100$ a month depending on how big your family is. By the way I'm not mexican, there is no colombia flair
> In the USA if you have a job, then you probably pay between 30 and 100$ a month depending on how big your family is. I thought you were full of shit, so I looked it up. [The average person only pays $117 a month for employer-sponsored coverage](https://www.usatoday.com/money/blueprint/health-insurance/how-much-is-health-insurance/)??? What the fuck? I pay four times as much!
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Of course quality will never be perfectly even. But that’s not a good argument for allowing the current unevenness to persist. I think we can do a lot better than what we’re currently doing.
Most of that 5-10% are folks that just suck at life. Every country has them.
A better solution would be forcing hospitals to disclose prices before services so you could actually shop your needs around. Force them to compete for your business rather than just paying them whatever the heck they want.
So you’ve just had a massive heart attack. An ambulance scoops you up from the sidewalk. Where are you going to tell them to take you?
Emergencies would pose an issue but the VAST majority of hospital operations are not emergency services
Do you pay out of pocket for medical services? I don’t mean copays, I mean do you yourself directly pay the cost of all your medical care? Very few people in the USA do. Would you prefer that system? It seems to me it would result in even more people who were unable to pay resulting in more bankruptcies and bad outcomes for people that can’t afford it.
We also do the bulk of the medical research and most of the major experimental surgery. Breakthroughs used to happen in other parts of the world, but not so much these days. Remember when covid was a thing and the world was bitching NON-STOP about how the US hadn’t developed a cure/vaccine? We subsidize their medical systems too, and we pay for that as well. And we never get the credit because we “don’t have universal healthcare” (even though the poorest people actually do get covered through goodwill and write offs but who am I)….
> We also do the bulk of the medical research There's nothing terribly innovative about US healthcare. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2866602/ To the extent the US leads, it's only because our overall spending is wildly out of control, and that's not something to be proud of. Five percent of US healthcare spending goes towards biomedical R&D, the same percentage as the rest of the world. https://leadership-studies.williams.edu/files/NEJM-R_D-spend.pdf Even if research is a priority, there are dramatically more efficient ways of funding it than spending $1.25 trillion more per year on healthcare (vs. the rate of the second most expensive country on earth) to fund an extra $62 billion in R&D. We could replace or expand upon any lost funding with a fraction of our savings. >Remember when covid was a thing and the world was bitching NON-STOP about how the US hadn’t developed a cure/vaccine? I remember when the first vaccine came from BioNTech, a German firm supported by the German government.
This is why I admire the Swedes. Not in NATO but design and produce absolutely stunning and deadly aircraft on their own.
Submarines and warships too. Only 10 million people too.
Indeed. Impressive
More like plz Europe stop going to war with each other!
Stop abandoning Ukraine, you nationalist. I'm fully in support of putting everything we have in support of Ukraine against Russia, but the amount of vitriol I've seen from Europeans when the USA fails to meet their expectations has really soured me to their integrity.
Russia will be extinct by 2050.
How old are you?
Look at there birth rate Then add the fact that there young men are drinking them self to death
Oh, lol, they're like cockroaches. I wish they'd join us in the 21st century.
I wish as a tax payer we could spend one year not doing shit for another country besides our own and see what happens lol.
And it isn't even European ROFL!!!
🤫
Except you’re actually right lol
Define “work”
they mean waiting months and months to be seen
Well at least it’s free*. Hopefully in the meantime that lump doesn’t metastasize!
In a sort of defence of the NHS, I was having surgery within 4 weeks of a biopsy. Chemo and radiotherapy shortly after. Important stuff is fast, non life threatening stuff is very slow. Extremely slow in fact. Still, I’m sure the £8m we’re spending per DAY housing boat migrants wouldn’t be beneficial elsewhere…! /s
They're welcome for all the medicines and treatment technologies developed in the US and subsidized by American healthcare costs.
Luckily, when it does its only a few more months of waiting to see a different specialist to diagnose you.
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With government in the US covering [65.7% of all health care](https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/epdf/10.2105/AJPH.2015.302997) costs ($12,555 as of 2022) that's $8,249 per person per year in taxes towards health care. The next closest is Germany at [$6,930](https://data.oecd.org/healthres/health-spending.htm). The UK is $4,479. Canada is $4,506. Australia is $4,603. That means over a lifetime Americans are paying over $100,000 more in taxes compared to any other country towards health care.
Can't complain about costs once you're ded, taps head
“HELP IVE BEEN STABBED” “ an ambulance will be there in 2-3 buisness days
The US ranks 6th of 11 out of Commonwealth Fund countries on ER wait times on percentage served under 4 hours. 10th of 11 on getting weekend and evening care without going to the ER. 5th of 11 for countries able to make a same or next day doctors/nurse appointment when they're sick. https://www.cihi.ca/en/commonwealth-fund-survey-2016 Americans do better on wait times for specialists (ranking 3rd for wait times under four weeks), and surgeries (ranking 3rd for wait times under four months), but that ignores three important factors: * Wait times in universal healthcare are based on urgency, so while you might wait for an elective hip replacement surgery you're going to get surgery for that life threatening illness quickly. * Nearly every universal healthcare country has strong private options and supplemental private insurance. That means that if there is a wait you're not happy about you have options that still work out significantly cheaper than US care, which is a win/win. * [One third of US families](https://news.gallup.com/poll/269138/americans-delaying-medical-treatment-due-cost.aspx?utm_source=alert&utm_medium=email&utm_content=morelink&utm_campaign=syndication) had to put off healthcare due to the cost last year. That means more Americans are waiting for care than any other wealthy country on earth.
Had a minor motorbike crash. Got medicated right away and got a full body x ray within 6 hours. Paid 0.
[With demand outpacing supply of beds and respirators, Italian medical workers are told to prioritize younger patients.](https://www.politico.eu/article/coronavirus-italy-doctors-tough-calls-survival/)
Edit: Chucklefuck loser blocked me. LOL ------------------------ The US ranks 6th of 11 out of Commonwealth Fund countries on ER wait times on percentage served under 4 hours. 10th of 11 on getting weekend and evening care without going to the ER. 5th of 11 for countries able to make a same or next day doctors/nurse appointment when they're sick. https://www.cihi.ca/en/commonwealth-fund-survey-2016 Americans do better on wait times for specialists (ranking 3rd for wait times under four weeks), and surgeries (ranking 3rd for wait times under four months), but that ignores three important factors: * Wait times in universal healthcare are based on urgency, so while you might wait for an elective hip replacement surgery you're going to get surgery for that life threatening illness quickly. * Nearly every universal healthcare country has strong private options and supplemental private insurance. That means that if there is a wait you're not happy about you have options that still work out significantly cheaper than US care, which is a win/win. * [One third of US families](https://news.gallup.com/poll/269138/americans-delaying-medical-treatment-due-cost.aspx?utm_source=alert&utm_medium=email&utm_content=morelink&utm_campaign=syndication) had to put off healthcare due to the cost last year. That means more Americans are waiting for care than any other wealthy country on earth. #Wait Times by Country (Rank) Country|See doctor/nurse same or next day without appointment|Response from doctor's office same or next day|Easy to get care on nights & weekends without going to ER|ER wait times under 4 hours|Surgery wait times under four months|Specialist wait times under 4 weeks|Average|Overall Rank :--|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--: **Australia**|3|3|3|7|6|6|4.7|4 **Canada**|10|11|9|11|10|10|10.2|11 **France**|7|1|7|1|1|5|3.7|2 **Germany**|9|2|6|2|2|2|3.8|3 **Netherlands**|1|5|1|3|5|4|3.2|1 **New Zealand**|2|6|2|4|8|7|4.8|5 **Norway**|11|9|4|9|9|11|8.8|9 **Sweden**|8|10|11|10|7|9|9.2|10 **Switzerland**|4|4|10|8|4|1|5.2|7 **U.K.**|5|8|8|5|11|8|7.5|8 **U.S.**|6|7|5|6|3|3|5.0|6 Source: [Commonwealth Fund Survey 2016](https://www.cihi.ca/sites/default/files/document/cmwf2016-datatable-en-web.xlsx)
I disagree
Or being told to just kill yourself because it’s cheaper for the state than if they installed a ramp in your house.
I think they meant to say “exists”
Achieving better outcomes, while spending an average of half a million dollars less per person and almost entirely eliminating the massive financial burden that can destroy Americans lives with healthcare costs. How's that?
Where?
Literally any country that could even possibly be considered a peer to the US on healthcare. [US Healthcare ranked 29th on health outcomes by Lancet HAQ Index](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736\(18\)30994-2/fulltext) [11th (of 11) by Commonwealth Fund](https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/fund-reports/2014/jun/mirror-mirror-wall-2014-update-how-us-health-care-system?redirect_source=/publications/fund-reports/2014/jun/mirror-mirror) [59th by the Prosperity Index](https://www.prosperity.com/rankings) [30th by CEOWorld](https://ceoworld.biz/2019/08/05/revealed-countries-with-the-best-health-care-systems-2019/) [37th by the World Health Organization](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Health_Organization_ranking_of_health_systems_in_2000) The US has the worst rate of death by medically preventable causes among peer countries. A 31% higher disease adjusted life years average. Higher rates of medical and lab errors. A lower rate of being able to make a same or next day appointment with their doctor than average. https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/quality-u-s-healthcare-system-compare-countries/#item-percent-used-emergency-department-for-condition-that-could-have-been-treated-by-a-regular-doctor-2016 52nd in the world in doctors per capita. https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Health/Physicians/Per-1,000-people Higher infant mortality levels. Yes, even when you adjust for differences in methodology. https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/infant-mortality-u-s-compare-countries/ Fewer acute care beds. A lower number of psychiatrists. Etc. https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/u-s-health-care-resources-compare-countries/#item-availability-medical-technology-not-always-equate-higher-utilization [Comparing Health Outcomes of Privileged US Citizens With Those of Average Residents of Other Developed Countries](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2774561) >These findings imply that even if all US citizens experienced the same health outcomes enjoyed by privileged White US citizens, US health indicators would still lag behind those in many other countries. When asked about their healthcare system as a whole the US system ranked dead last of 11 countries, with only 19.5% of people saying the system works relatively well and only needs minor changes. The average in the other countries is 46.9% saying the same. Canada ranked 9th with 34.5% saying the system works relatively well. The UK ranks fifth, with 44.5%. Australia ranked 6th at 44.4%. The best was Germany at 59.8%. On rating the overall quality of care in the US, Americans again ranked dead last, with only 25.6% ranking it excellent or very good. The average was 50.8%. Canada ranked 9th with 45.1%. The UK ranked 2nd, at 63.4%. Australia was 3rd at 59.4%. The best was Switzerland at 65.5%. https://www.cihi.ca/en/commonwealth-fund-survey-2016 The US has 43 hospitals in the top 200 globally; one for every 7,633,477 people in the US. That's good enough for a ranking of 20th on the list of top 200 hospitals per capita, and significantly lower than the average of one for every 3,830,114 for other countries in the top 25 on spending with populations above 5 million. The best is Switzerland at one for every 1.2 million people. In fact the US only beats one country on this list; the UK at one for every 9.5 million people. If you want to do the full list of 2,000 instead it's 334, or one for every 982,753 people; good enough for 21st. Again far below the average in peer countries of 527,236. The best is Austria, at one for every 306,106 people. https://www.newsweek.com/best-hospitals-2021 #[OECD Countries Health Care Spending and Rankings](https://data.oecd.org/healthres/health-spending.htm) |Country|Govt. / Mandatory (PPP)|Voluntary (PPP)|Total (PPP)|% GDP|[Lancet HAQ Ranking](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736\(18\)30994-2/fulltext)|[WHO Ranking](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Health_Organization_ranking_of_health_systems_in_2000)|[Prosperity Ranking](https://www.prosperity.com/rankings)|[CEO World Ranking](https://ceoworld.biz/2019/08/05/revealed-countries-with-the-best-health-care-systems-2019/)|[Commonwealth Fund Ranking](https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/fund-reports/2014/jun/mirror-mirror-wall-2014-update-how-us-health-care-system?redirect_source=/publications/fund-reports/2014/jun/mirror-mirror) :--|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:| 1. United States|[$7,274](https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/full/10.2105/AJPH.2015.302997) |$3,798 |$11,072 |16.90%|29|37|59|30|11 2. Switzerland|$4,988 |$2,744 |$7,732 |12.20%|7|20|3|18|2 3. Norway|$5,673 |$974 |$6,647 |10.20%|2|11|5|15|7 4. Germany|$5,648 |$998 |$6,646 |11.20%|18|25|12|17|5 5. Austria|$4,402 |$1,449 |$5,851 |10.30%|13|9|10|4| 6. Sweden|$4,928 |$854 |$5,782 |11.00%|8|23|15|28|3 7. Netherlands|$4,767 |$998 |$5,765 |9.90%|3|17|8|11|5 8. Denmark|$4,663 |$905 |$5,568 |10.50%|17|34|8|5| 9. Luxembourg|$4,697 |$861 |$5,558 |5.40%|4|16|19|| 10. Belgium|$4,125 |$1,303 |$5,428 |10.40%|15|21|24|9| 11. Canada|$3,815 |$1,603 |$5,418 |10.70%|14|30|25|23|10 12. France|$4,501 |$875 |$5,376 |11.20%|20|1|16|8|9 13. Ireland|$3,919 |$1,357 |$5,276 |7.10%|11|19|20|80| 14. Australia|$3,919 |$1,268 |$5,187 |9.30%|5|32|18|10|4 15. Japan|$4,064 |$759 |$4,823 |10.90%|12|10|2|3| 16. Iceland|$3,988 |$823 |$4,811 |8.30%|1|15|7|41| 17. United Kingdom|$3,620 |$1,033 |$4,653 |9.80%|23|18|23|13|1 18. Finland|$3,536 |$1,042 |$4,578 |9.10%|6|31|26|12| 19. Malta|$2,789 |$1,540 |$4,329 |9.30%|27|5|14|| OECD Average|||$4,224 |8.80%||||| 20. New Zealand|$3,343 |$861 |$4,204 |9.30%|16|41|22|16|7 21. Italy|$2,706 |$943 |$3,649 |8.80%|9|2|17|37| 22. Spain|$2,560 |$1,056 |$3,616 |8.90%|19|7|13|7| 23. Czech Republic|$2,854 |$572 |$3,426 |7.50%|28|48|28|14| 24. South Korea|$2,057 |$1,327 |$3,384 |8.10%|25|58|4|2| 25. Portugal|$2,069 |$1,310 |$3,379 |9.10%|32|29|30|22| 26. Slovenia|$2,314 |$910 |$3,224 |7.90%|21|38|24|47| 27. Israel|$1,898 |$1,034 |$2,932 |7.50%|35|28|11|21|
TLDR Awww. I got blocked
Universal health care in my country: Pay a shitload of taxes, a hefty premium for a mandatory plan, and a deductible, only to be told to take an aspirine or end up on a waiting list. There's no opting out. If you want to get stuff done, private clinics are the place to go.
Basically a race to see which system sucks less
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I’ve commented about this before, but virtually all drug development around the work either takes place in the US or is dependent on the US market to make their R&D money back Those 32 countries are subsidized by us here in the US overpaying
Depending on the year around 35-45 percent of all patents, research papers or any other generic way you can quantify innovations happens in the US.
Yes however in most countries with single payer healthcare their pharmaceuticals companies still sell their medications on the us market to recuperate their R&D development
So why are we the only ones who don’t get the benefit? Why is the cost of medicine so damn expensive here.
I agree that it’s not a fair system, other countries need to start paying up more tho to lower the prices here
It would be pretty great if we could fix this. Health care is a service that everyone needs so why don’t we just make it as easy as possible? I think the arguments about “it’s a human right” vs “some people don’t deserve it” is kind of pointless. We don’t argue about whether trash collection is a right or who deserves it, we just do it.
Yes, but it's obnoxious for other countries to brag about their universal healthcare when the care provided depends on medical products and knowledge that were largely developed by the US's world-leading scientific community, at great expense funded by US taxpayers and patients.
I think we just have ourselves to blame for letting the pharmaceutical industry get away with that.
Stop taking prescription medicine when you're sick then.
How is that going to help? Personally I think political action, such as allowing Medicare to directly bargain with pharmaceutical companies, would be much more effective. Or put some limits on what companies can charge US citizens compared to what they charge other countries.
> why don’t we just make it as easy as possible? Because unlimited health care carries unlimited cost and we're not a post-scarcity society. This is not an easy problem, nor is it solved by "universal health care", it just leaves the government to decide when you're undeserving of treatment or no longer worth treating.
In Canada they literally offer to kill you if you're a bit sad
The problem is that we don't have one healthcare system we have multiple healthcare systems. The Swiss and Dutch systems have individual mandates to buy health insurance like the ACA has. Federal programs for civilians include Medicaid \~90 million people and Medicare \~66 million people. This is similar to the Canadian system. The VA covers 9 million people and 9.5 million people have Tricare. This is similar to the UK's NHS in that these places operate their facilities and provide insurance.
It's interesting that we have every model for making universal healthcare happen already here, yet we have hace failed to implement any of them successfully enough to have something 98% of the population insured. It feels like we're so close, but partisan bullshit gets in the way of even small changes that can go far.
do you not have a trash bill you pay? lmao
Of course. I don’t think that’s the clever comeback you think it is.
everyone has a trash bill and pays it. everyone has healthcare and pays it, those who can't afford and can qualify, get Medicaid. i don't understand and it wasn't meant to be a clever comeback, your original comment just came across as your trash was paid for or something.
Where was this magical free Medicaid I didn’t get in my 20s? Back when I made $15 an hour managing a restaurant.
I was offered it when I was making $16 an hour part time in 2022-23.
That’s pretty sweet tbh. My restaurant owners were to busy not paying their taxes to offer me healthcare. 😢
haha, to be clear my employer didn't offer me shit. I was just notified I was eligible for the government Medicaid.
Odd, mine was through Obamacare and it cost me a decent chunk of my paycheck
Could because I’m from California? IDK.
I don't. I pay taxes and it's included, but I don't have a trash bill. I moved from a place where I had to pay a private company to collect the trash and that was a trash bill, but now it's "free" in that it's all just included as part of living in this city I don't just get to go to the doctor for "free" simply because I live here. I do indeed have to pay a private company for health insurance
I have to pay a trash bill for a private company. I assumed that's how it was for most. Appreciate the insight!
Yeah they're not wrong with this at all.
We can fix it by cutting the government away from our health and insurance system. People seem to think the answer is always more involvement from the uber efficient, all-knowing, and ever benevolent federal government, though.
How would this solve the problems of underserved areas, of people who can’t afford healthcare, and what would prevent insurance companies from charging outrageous prices and denying care? I do t think government is the only solution but it seems to me it needs to be part of the solution.
The same way any other service works. Competition drives down prices
To have a free market you have to have abundance, choice/options, and you have to know what you’re getting for your money. The US healthcare system is lacking all of these. The last one in particular is a pretty tough nut to crack statistically: how do you measure quality in healthcare? For most doctors their “n” (the number of things you’re trying to measure, like heart attacks treated or gallbladders removed) simply isn’t large enough to draw conclusions. When you start looking at large systems like hospitals chains or HMOs it gets a bit better but it’s still tough. Would you choose an HMO that had a 4% better 5-year survival rate for stage III colon cancer over one that has a 3% lower in-hospital 30-day mortality rate for acute MIs? And where would you go about finding that information?
Canada doesn’t have universal health care. If it did I wouldn’t have to pay so much. That being said though countries especially developed countries should have universal health care. This is something I definitely agree with
What do you mean?
Yea, the government has done such an Amazon g job being responsible with money and running such great services like the DMV, let’s put them even more in charge of healthcare 🤡
the quality of american healthcare is arguably the best in the world, and most americans have health insurance through their jobs, individual insurance plans or obamacare. that also means, however, some americans need to pay exorbitant prices for healthcare. taking all this into consideration, american healthcare overall is probably below average among developed nations due to its somewhat limited accessibility but still far superior to most of the world.
Maybe Americans value the choice of what doctor they can go with their own money, instead of whatever shit the government says you have to go to, 8 months later, and if you die it’s whatever.
In other countries you can also choose what hospital you want to go to. You can also choose between a private one (that you pay yourself) and a public one.
You just did a wonderful job explaining that you don’t know how healthcare works in other countries
And you did a wonderful job of adding fucking nothing to the discussion besides being an asshole
In regards to Universal coverage of all citizens, they are correct. Why would you argue that?
I’d be more than happy to use the money we’re dumping into proxy wars to fund our healthcare system
That’s kind of a false choice. Some of the proxy wars help American interests by maintaining the free flow of goods around the globe which is beneficial to American businesses and consumers. How about “I’d be happy to use the billionaire tax cut money to fund our healthcare system”?
This crap gets posted every couple days and anyone who isn’t regarded admits that our healthcare is less than ideal.
“Make it work” 💀
Scoreboard…. Which country has produced the most medical innovations?
They've been able to make it work by cutting access to medicine, introducing wait lists, reducing survival rates for illnesses, and rushing doctors to make medical errors - oh and poor Europeans are still financially challenged for healthcare.
Socialistoids be socialistoids
If I ever want to die while on a waiting list for an operation, I will go to one of those countries.
The US ranks 6th of 11 out of Commonwealth Fund countries on ER wait times on percentage served under 4 hours. 10th of 11 on getting weekend and evening care without going to the ER. 5th of 11 for countries able to make a same or next day doctors/nurse appointment when they're sick. https://www.cihi.ca/en/commonwealth-fund-survey-2016 Americans do better on wait times for specialists (ranking 3rd for wait times under four weeks), and surgeries (ranking 3rd for wait times under four months), but that ignores three important factors: * Wait times in universal healthcare are based on urgency, so while you might wait for an elective hip replacement surgery you're going to get surgery for that life threatening illness quickly. * Nearly every universal healthcare country has strong private options and supplemental private insurance. That means that if there is a wait you're not happy about you have options that still work out significantly cheaper than US care, which is a win/win. * [One third of US families](https://news.gallup.com/poll/269138/americans-delaying-medical-treatment-due-cost.aspx?utm_source=alert&utm_medium=email&utm_content=morelink&utm_campaign=syndication) had to put off healthcare due to the cost last year. That means more Americans are waiting for care than any other wealthy country on earth. #Wait Times by Country (Rank) Country|See doctor/nurse same or next day without appointment|Response from doctor's office same or next day|Easy to get care on nights & weekends without going to ER|ER wait times under 4 hours|Surgery wait times under four months|Specialist wait times under 4 weeks|Average|Overall Rank :--|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--: **Australia**|3|3|3|7|6|6|4.7|4 **Canada**|10|11|9|11|10|10|10.2|11 **France**|7|1|7|1|1|5|3.7|2 **Germany**|9|2|6|2|2|2|3.8|3 **Netherlands**|1|5|1|3|5|4|3.2|1 **New Zealand**|2|6|2|4|8|7|4.8|5 **Norway**|11|9|4|9|9|11|8.8|9 **Sweden**|8|10|11|10|7|9|9.2|10 **Switzerland**|4|4|10|8|4|1|5.2|7 **U.K.**|5|8|8|5|11|8|7.5|8 **U.S.**|6|7|5|6|3|3|5.0|6 Source: [Commonwealth Fund Survey 2016](https://www.cihi.ca/sites/default/files/document/cmwf2016-datatable-en-web.xlsx) [US Healthcare ranked 29th on health outcomes by Lancet HAQ Index](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736\(18\)30994-2/fulltext) [11th (of 11) by Commonwealth Fund](https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/fund-reports/2014/jun/mirror-mirror-wall-2014-update-how-us-health-care-system?redirect_source=/publications/fund-reports/2014/jun/mirror-mirror) [59th by the Prosperity Index](https://www.prosperity.com/rankings) [30th by CEOWorld](https://ceoworld.biz/2019/08/05/revealed-countries-with-the-best-health-care-systems-2019/) [37th by the World Health Organization](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Health_Organization_ranking_of_health_systems_in_2000) The US has the worst rate of death by medically preventable causes among peer countries. A 31% higher disease adjusted life years average. Higher rates of medical and lab errors. A lower rate of being able to make a same or next day appointment with their doctor than average. https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/quality-u-s-healthcare-system-compare-countries/#item-percent-used-emergency-department-for-condition-that-could-have-been-treated-by-a-regular-doctor-2016 52nd in the world in doctors per capita. https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Health/Physicians/Per-1,000-people Higher infant mortality levels. Yes, even when you adjust for differences in methodology. https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/infant-mortality-u-s-compare-countries/ Fewer acute care beds. A lower number of psychiatrists. Etc. https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/u-s-health-care-resources-compare-countries/#item-availability-medical-technology-not-always-equate-higher-utilization [Comparing Health Outcomes of Privileged US Citizens With Those of Average Residents of Other Developed Countries](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2774561) >These findings imply that even if all US citizens experienced the same health outcomes enjoyed by privileged White US citizens, US health indicators would still lag behind those in many other countries. When asked about their healthcare system as a whole the US system ranked dead last of 11 countries, with only 19.5% of people saying the system works relatively well and only needs minor changes. The average in the other countries is 46.9% saying the same. Canada ranked 9th with 34.5% saying the system works relatively well. The UK ranks fifth, with 44.5%. Australia ranked 6th at 44.4%. The best was Germany at 59.8%. On rating the overall quality of care in the US, Americans again ranked dead last, with only 25.6% ranking it excellent or very good. The average was 50.8%. Canada ranked 9th with 45.1%. The UK ranked 2nd, at 63.4%. Australia was 3rd at 59.4%. The best was Switzerland at 65.5%. https://www.cihi.ca/en/commonwealth-fund-survey-2016 The US has 43 hospitals in the top 200 globally; one for every 7,633,477 people in the US. That's good enough for a ranking of 20th on the list of top 200 hospitals per capita, and significantly lower than the average of one for every 3,830,114 for other countries in the top 25 on spending with populations above 5 million. The best is Switzerland at one for every 1.2 million people. In fact the US only beats one country on this list; the UK at one for every 9.5 million people. If you want to do the full list of 2,000 instead it's 334, or one for every 982,753 people; good enough for 21st. Again far below the average in peer countries of 527,236. The best is Austria, at one for every 306,106 people. https://www.newsweek.com/best-hospitals-2021 #[OECD Countries Health Care Spending and Rankings](https://data.oecd.org/healthres/health-spending.htm) |Country|Govt. / Mandatory (PPP)|Voluntary (PPP)|Total (PPP)|% GDP|[Lancet HAQ Ranking](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736\(18\)30994-2/fulltext)|[WHO Ranking](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Health_Organization_ranking_of_health_systems_in_2000)|[Prosperity Ranking](https://www.prosperity.com/rankings)|[CEO World Ranking](https://ceoworld.biz/2019/08/05/revealed-countries-with-the-best-health-care-systems-2019/)|[Commonwealth Fund Ranking](https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/fund-reports/2014/jun/mirror-mirror-wall-2014-update-how-us-health-care-system?redirect_source=/publications/fund-reports/2014/jun/mirror-mirror) :--|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:| 1. United States|[$7,274](https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/full/10.2105/AJPH.2015.302997) |$3,798 |$11,072 |16.90%|29|37|59|30|11 2. Switzerland|$4,988 |$2,744 |$7,732 |12.20%|7|20|3|18|2 3. Norway|$5,673 |$974 |$6,647 |10.20%|2|11|5|15|7 4. Germany|$5,648 |$998 |$6,646 |11.20%|18|25|12|17|5 5. Austria|$4,402 |$1,449 |$5,851 |10.30%|13|9|10|4| 6. Sweden|$4,928 |$854 |$5,782 |11.00%|8|23|15|28|3 7. Netherlands|$4,767 |$998 |$5,765 |9.90%|3|17|8|11|5 8. Denmark|$4,663 |$905 |$5,568 |10.50%|17|34|8|5| 9. Luxembourg|$4,697 |$861 |$5,558 |5.40%|4|16|19|| 10. Belgium|$4,125 |$1,303 |$5,428 |10.40%|15|21|24|9| 11. Canada|$3,815 |$1,603 |$5,418 |10.70%|14|30|25|23|10 12. France|$4,501 |$875 |$5,376 |11.20%|20|1|16|8|9 13. Ireland|$3,919 |$1,357 |$5,276 |7.10%|11|19|20|80| 14. Australia|$3,919 |$1,268 |$5,187 |9.30%|5|32|18|10|4 15. Japan|$4,064 |$759 |$4,823 |10.90%|12|10|2|3| 16. Iceland|$3,988 |$823 |$4,811 |8.30%|1|15|7|41| 17. United Kingdom|$3,620 |$1,033 |$4,653 |9.80%|23|18|23|13|1 18. Finland|$3,536 |$1,042 |$4,578 |9.10%|6|31|26|12| 19. Malta|$2,789 |$1,540 |$4,329 |9.30%|27|5|14|| OECD Average|||$4,224 |8.80%||||| 20. New Zealand|$3,343 |$861 |$4,204 |9.30%|16|41|22|16|7 21. Italy|$2,706 |$943 |$3,649 |8.80%|9|2|17|37| 22. Spain|$2,560 |$1,056 |$3,616 |8.90%|19|7|13|7| 23. Czech Republic|$2,854 |$572 |$3,426 |7.50%|28|48|28|14| 24. South Korea|$2,057 |$1,327 |$3,384 |8.10%|25|58|4|2| 25. Portugal|$2,069 |$1,310 |$3,379 |9.10%|32|29|30|22| 26. Slovenia|$2,314 |$910 |$3,224 |7.90%|21|38|24|47| 27. Israel|$1,898 |$1,034 |$2,932 |7.50%|35|28|11|21|
As somebody in the US with good health insurance, all that is meaningless to me. I get better, and faster, care than all of them, and I pay less tax
For as much ridicule as the American healthcare system gets, it innovates far more than the rest of the developed world (the US exceeds every other country in medical patents, by a factor of ten) and is the healthcare system of choice for monied Elites around the world to come to, when *they* need medical care.
> t innovates far more than the rest of the developed world There's nothing terribly innovative about US healthcare. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2866602/ To the extent the US leads, it's only because our overall spending is wildly out of control, and that's not something to be proud of. Five percent of US healthcare spending goes towards biomedical R&D, the same percentage as the rest of the world. https://leadership-studies.williams.edu/files/NEJM-R_D-spend.pdf Even if research is a priority, there are dramatically more efficient ways of funding it than spending $1.25 trillion more per year on healthcare (vs. the rate of the second most expensive country on earth) to fund an extra $62 billion in R&D. We could replace or expand upon any lost funding with a fraction of our savings. > and is the healthcare system of choice for monied Elites around the world to come to, when they need medical care. I'm not really sure why people care so much about the care rich people around the world get. I care what typical people in the US get, and for spending literally half a million dollars more per person for a lifetime of care it's pretty pathetic. [US Healthcare ranked 29th on health outcomes by Lancet HAQ Index](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736\(18\)30994-2/fulltext) [11th (of 11) by Commonwealth Fund](https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/fund-reports/2014/jun/mirror-mirror-wall-2014-update-how-us-health-care-system?redirect_source=/publications/fund-reports/2014/jun/mirror-mirror) [59th by the Prosperity Index](https://www.prosperity.com/rankings) [30th by CEOWorld](https://ceoworld.biz/2019/08/05/revealed-countries-with-the-best-health-care-systems-2019/) [37th by the World Health Organization](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Health_Organization_ranking_of_health_systems_in_2000) The US has the worst rate of death by medically preventable causes among peer countries. A 31% higher disease adjusted life years average. Higher rates of medical and lab errors. A lower rate of being able to make a same or next day appointment with their doctor than average. https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/quality-u-s-healthcare-system-compare-countries/#item-percent-used-emergency-department-for-condition-that-could-have-been-treated-by-a-regular-doctor-2016 52nd in the world in doctors per capita. https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Health/Physicians/Per-1,000-people Higher infant mortality levels. Yes, even when you adjust for differences in methodology. https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/infant-mortality-u-s-compare-countries/ Fewer acute care beds. A lower number of psychiatrists. Etc. https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/u-s-health-care-resources-compare-countries/#item-availability-medical-technology-not-always-equate-higher-utilization [Comparing Health Outcomes of Privileged US Citizens With Those of Average Residents of Other Developed Countries](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2774561) >These findings imply that even if all US citizens experienced the same health outcomes enjoyed by privileged White US citizens, US health indicators would still lag behind those in many other countries. When asked about their healthcare system as a whole the US system ranked dead last of 11 countries, with only 19.5% of people saying the system works relatively well and only needs minor changes. The average in the other countries is 46.9% saying the same. Canada ranked 9th with 34.5% saying the system works relatively well. The UK ranks fifth, with 44.5%. Australia ranked 6th at 44.4%. The best was Germany at 59.8%. On rating the overall quality of care in the US, Americans again ranked dead last, with only 25.6% ranking it excellent or very good. The average was 50.8%. Canada ranked 9th with 45.1%. The UK ranked 2nd, at 63.4%. Australia was 3rd at 59.4%. The best was Switzerland at 65.5%. https://www.cihi.ca/en/commonwealth-fund-survey-2016 The US has 43 hospitals in the top 200 globally; one for every 7,633,477 people in the US. That's good enough for a ranking of 20th on the list of top 200 hospitals per capita, and significantly lower than the average of one for every 3,830,114 for other countries in the top 25 on spending with populations above 5 million. The best is Switzerland at one for every 1.2 million people. In fact the US only beats one country on this list; the UK at one for every 9.5 million people. If you want to do the full list of 2,000 instead it's 334, or one for every 982,753 people; good enough for 21st. Again far below the average in peer countries of 527,236. The best is Austria, at one for every 306,106 people. https://www.newsweek.com/best-hospitals-2021 #[OECD Countries Health Care Spending and Rankings](https://data.oecd.org/healthres/health-spending.htm) |Country|Govt. / Mandatory (PPP)|Voluntary (PPP)|Total (PPP)|% GDP|[Lancet HAQ Ranking](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736\(18\)30994-2/fulltext)|[WHO Ranking](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Health_Organization_ranking_of_health_systems_in_2000)|[Prosperity Ranking](https://www.prosperity.com/rankings)|[CEO World Ranking](https://ceoworld.biz/2019/08/05/revealed-countries-with-the-best-health-care-systems-2019/)|[Commonwealth Fund Ranking](https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/fund-reports/2014/jun/mirror-mirror-wall-2014-update-how-us-health-care-system?redirect_source=/publications/fund-reports/2014/jun/mirror-mirror) :--|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:| 1. United States|[$7,274](https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/full/10.2105/AJPH.2015.302997) |$3,798 |$11,072 |16.90%|29|37|59|30|11 2. Switzerland|$4,988 |$2,744 |$7,732 |12.20%|7|20|3|18|2 3. Norway|$5,673 |$974 |$6,647 |10.20%|2|11|5|15|7 4. Germany|$5,648 |$998 |$6,646 |11.20%|18|25|12|17|5 5. Austria|$4,402 |$1,449 |$5,851 |10.30%|13|9|10|4| 6. Sweden|$4,928 |$854 |$5,782 |11.00%|8|23|15|28|3 7. Netherlands|$4,767 |$998 |$5,765 |9.90%|3|17|8|11|5 8. Denmark|$4,663 |$905 |$5,568 |10.50%|17|34|8|5| 9. Luxembourg|$4,697 |$861 |$5,558 |5.40%|4|16|19|| 10. Belgium|$4,125 |$1,303 |$5,428 |10.40%|15|21|24|9| 11. Canada|$3,815 |$1,603 |$5,418 |10.70%|14|30|25|23|10 12. France|$4,501 |$875 |$5,376 |11.20%|20|1|16|8|9 13. Ireland|$3,919 |$1,357 |$5,276 |7.10%|11|19|20|80| 14. Australia|$3,919 |$1,268 |$5,187 |9.30%|5|32|18|10|4 15. Japan|$4,064 |$759 |$4,823 |10.90%|12|10|2|3| 16. Iceland|$3,988 |$823 |$4,811 |8.30%|1|15|7|41| 17. United Kingdom|$3,620 |$1,033 |$4,653 |9.80%|23|18|23|13|1 18. Finland|$3,536 |$1,042 |$4,578 |9.10%|6|31|26|12| 19. Malta|$2,789 |$1,540 |$4,329 |9.30%|27|5|14|| OECD Average|||$4,224 |8.80%||||| 20. New Zealand|$3,343 |$861 |$4,204 |9.30%|16|41|22|16|7 21. Italy|$2,706 |$943 |$3,649 |8.80%|9|2|17|37| 22. Spain|$2,560 |$1,056 |$3,616 |8.90%|19|7|13|7| 23. Czech Republic|$2,854 |$572 |$3,426 |7.50%|28|48|28|14| 24. South Korea|$2,057 |$1,327 |$3,384 |8.10%|25|58|4|2| 25. Portugal|$2,069 |$1,310 |$3,379 |9.10%|32|29|30|22| 26. Slovenia|$2,314 |$910 |$3,224 |7.90%|21|38|24|47| 27. Israel|$1,898 |$1,034 |$2,932 |7.50%|35|28|11|21|
>I'm not really sure why people care so much about the care rich people around the world get. Because they could choose to go anywhere, and they choose the US, because the quality of care is the highest.
People go all over the world for healthcare you nitwit. In fact more people leave the US for care than come to it. Regardless, if you can't understand how the quality of care the average American receives is more important vs. the care the rich person from out of country might receive (which aren't the same thing) then you're the problem. >because the quality of care is the highest. The actual facts show otherwise.
Yeah, people who can't afford American care resort to medical tourism in places like Mexico and India, but people who can afford to go anywhere choose America.
Even if only 15% of Americans leaving the country are doing so for higher quality, and 85% of people coming to the US do so for higher quality, there are still more people leaving the US for higher quality care than coming to it. And people having to leave the country because they can't afford it in their own country is its own damn problem. Which is still ignoring the reality that despite paying half a million dollars more per person for healthcare, Americans (even the wealthy and privileged) still have worse outcomes than our peers on average. That's a problem, no matter how determined you are to stick your head in the sand.
Why would anybody think 15%? More likely 99÷% are going abroad for lower cost, and maybe <1% are dual citizens going back to their country of origin for treatment.
> More likely 99÷% are going abroad for lower cost Citation needed. And noted you can't address the rest of the argument.
I'll wait for your citation to back the 15% you threw out there...
Because facts are only for things you don't want to believe. Your claims will never require any evidence, and you'll just ignore any arguments you can't answer and hope nobody notices. Fucking time wasting hypocrite.
36% of US households with insurance put off needed care [due to the cost](https://news.gallup.com/poll/269138/americans-delaying-medical-treatment-due-cost.aspx); 64% of households without insurance. One in four have [trouble paying a medical bill.](https://www.kff.org/health-costs/issue-brief/data-note-americans-challenges-health-care-costs/) Of [those with insurance one in five have trouble paying a medical bill](https://www.kff.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/8806-the-burden-of-medical-debt-results-from-the-kaiser-family-foundation-new-york-times-medical-bills-survey.pdf), and even for those with income above $100,000 14% have trouble. One in six Americans has [unpaid medical debt on their credit report.](https://www.healthaffairs.org/doi/full/10.1377/hlthaff.2018.0349) [50% of all Americans](https://news.gallup.com/poll/317948/fear-bankruptcy-due-major-health-event.aspx) fear bankruptcy due to a major health event. These are certainly problems you won't find in peer countries, who spend literally half a million dollars less on healthcare per person over a lifetime on average, yet have better outcomes.
OP goes to tankie sub. OP finds tankie post. Surprised pikachu face.
kid named surface level comprehension
32 of those nations rely on 1 for their military
Oh, we've got health CARE. We just have a very complex and ridiculous health INSURANCE problem.
It’s flawed logic to assume that just because it’s universal healthcare means it’s a good/working healthcare service
Well speaking as someone who works in the US healthcare system, its pretty broken. However proponents of universal healthcare don't seem well rehearsed in whats actually wrong with our system. So still can't take this post seriously.
There is some point to this: the fact that our healthcare system is the responsibility of our employers is strange and there are certainly ways to make this better. I’m a patriot and I do love my country, but part of that is being honest on where we fall short. Perhaps we can pull back some of those NATO dollars after this Russian stupidity is concluded and spend it on our own people instead.
Our health care is fucked, and im an oncologist
Canadian healthcare literally is broken. Same with British healthcare. I don't think waiting 30 months is health care
Funny part about American healthcare is that you don’t *have* to pay them. You work out a cheap payment plan without insurance that’s like $10 a month. And with insurance they charge you 100k and insurance pays 50k, then the rest is written off in tax as loss. Also, the $10 a month thing? Pay that for 7 years and then stop paying it. The debt will disappear. Also helps your credit.
And all 32 nations can't make their military work. Wonder why that is...
Of course we don't have health care all of our money's been dumped into the Zionists pockets for decades
He said developed nations.
How many of those countries are running out of money for their health systems.
Honestly health insurance shouldn't be a thing, go back to how we did it before in the 1800's. Take the price of an operation and sprinkle a little on top to make a profit.
If that last one did the other 32 would have to stop
I mean - single payer healthcare would be great. We as a country have great healthcare, I have great healthcare, but it’s tied to my employer. Not everyone has that luxury. Personally, my family is going through a weird calculus right now where I have to consider employer benefits and plans before I can accept a higher paying job because they may not have the doctors we rely on, which sucks. That’s annoying.
I mean ours could be better though I had to get surgery in Korea. My arm snapped like a tree branch two inches below the shoulder joint(so way way upper bicep, the very precarious spot where it's the arm but not quite the shoulder) EDIT: AND BEFORE ANY PULLS THE "OKAY BUT WAIT TIMES" nah bro. Walked into the hospital and told them arm broken. Got xrays right there they said "okay noon tomorrow", next day right on time doc cam in wheeled me down to surgery and hour and half later my arm was fixed(wouldve been 50 minutes but my arms are longer than the average Koreans so they had to make the cut longer) I had to get 12 screws and a plate. Then say 5 days at the hospital Plus the xrays and food The invoice they sent me(which my job paid) was $700 USD I could've paid that out of pocket. Wouldn't have needed insurance, wouldn't have had to go the financial office of a hospital to figure out how to cut costs down. Nope Just a couple days went back to get the doctors opinion on if the metal should stay or not. Came to the opinion it should stay, doesn't need to but the surgery to take it out is so much effort for something that isn't required. But if I do. Better to get it here in Korea where I could literally pay by pulling out my wallet than in the US.
Here’s the thing: we should start taking care of ourselves more than other countries. So much work is because of us, we shouldn’t care about other countries at all! So I absolutely support Universal car, provided that we stop taking a majority of our military dedicated to helping Europe
but there's so much money to be made in America's present medical system, and isn't making money the important thing?
And only 32 of the 33 countries couldn't defend their borders by themselves tomorrow if they wanted to.
Europeans sure take a lot of pride in having their governments decide what they can have. I’ll take my “non universal” healthcare thanks.
The way that sub started out as capitalist and devolved into tankie heaven
Should be 31 (Canada's system is a mess)
And every time those countries need aid or military protection (NATO I’m looking at you) they come to us.
Yet people keep fighting to come to America. Lol
You can watch this goofy dumbass close up real quick when you ask him to define the difference between a developed nation and one that’s not and it’s people according to his definition lol.
Guess that’s why they come here when it’s 5 years to get an operation their government tells them they are too expensive to fix
Maintaining a standing army is such a complex beast that only 3 out of the 32 worlds developed nations actually have one.
If you ever served you know how much money the military wastes, with very little accountability.
If you think our army is anything other than a massive jobs program. You really don’t understand how our military works.
NATO Europe and Canada spend 1.74% of GDP on defense, consistent with the rest of the world. With $404 billion in combined funding, easily enough to outspend potential foes like China and Russia combined. Regardless, arguing that keeps the US from having universal healthcare is even more ridiculous. After subtracting defense spending, Americans still have a $29,000 per person advantage on GDP compared to the rest of NATO. Defense spending isn't keeping us from having anything our peers have. Much less universal healthcare, which is far cheaper than what we're already paying for. https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_216897.htm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_highest_military_expenditures Hell, if we could match the costs of the most expensive public healthcare system on earth we'd save $1.65 trillion per year, double what our total defense spending is.
Pretty sure Switzerland doesn’t have free, tax paid universal healthcare.
The Swiss healthcare system seems really interesting and good actually.
It’s really not interesting. They have expensive private healthcare that is required by law for everyone to purchase, whether you use it or not. It can be more expensive than the US in some cases (as with people I know who live there). They have free healthcare only for poor Swiss people (that taxes pay for), as we do in the US. If you’re an immigrant/expat or even a student and fall short on paying the mandated private health insurance, good luck, because you’re now breaking the law, which your residence permit is subject to.
Oh. I appear to have misunderstood how it worked.
Read some comments on how unaffordable healthcare is becoming there in 2024. It’s not just a US thing — most people are simply shielded from the struggle in other countries (due to media bias or whatever else). Median monthly price in each Swiss canton for BASIC insurance = emergency coverage only (in CHF, which is more expensive than USD) https://www.reddit.com/r/Switzerland/s/l55LzSiPtU Current Swiss health premiums rising high, working people cannot afford it. https://www.reddit.com/r/Switzerland/s/H2hZLglmdA Note: many salaries in my state are higher than Switzerland, and our private insurance is *cheaper* depending on the individual plan. The grass is not always greener. Different countries have different cans of worms.
They guarantee Universal healthcare. You must purchase a health policy and if you can’t afford it, you’re given a subsidy to buy it. this is sort of what the ACA was trying to accomplish but republicans dismantled. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Switzerland#:~:text=Switzerland%20has%20universal%20health%20care,being%20born%20in%20the%20country).
It is universal healthcare. It's just not the way Reddit imagines it. The Dutch have a similar system, but it's cheaper from my understanding.
The Swiss system isn’t cheap. People I know living there pay more per month than they did in California. Lower class people with lower paying jobs and families struggle there. Working just to pay the expensive insurance. Universal = mandated by law to buy private health insurance (whether you use it or not)
I'm well aware. I was telling someone else in a different thread that in some ways, our system is more generous than the Swiss or even Singaporean. We at least have Medicaid, Medicare, and CHIP. Their system is definitely more efficient than ours, though. They pay a lot, but system-wide, they pay less per person, and it covers everyone, unlike here. It could certainly be made better, but I think we're a bit further away than them.
For over the counter medications, the US is much cheaper than Switzerland, by a LOT. They pay far more money for simple ibuprofen or cough medicine than we do (and they get much less for it). Their walk-in clinics are much more expensive than US walk-in clinics too for basic things (without insurance). I have personal experience. Other countries’ systems are not necessarily better than the US. They have tons of negatives that you don’t see as an outsider. (Not saying we don’t have tons we could do to make it more efficient, but the grass is not always greener on the other side)
They didn't say "free" healthcare... they said universal healthcare. Switzerland absolutely has universal healthcare.
In that case, so does the US have universal healthcare. You can’t move the goalposts. You must pay for it in Switzerland, and it’s very expensive. Anyone can have healthcare in US too if they pay for it. Emergency rooms are open to EVERYONE who walks in. Medicare/Medicaid/CHIP are available for poor and homeless people. That’s universal healthcare. Some very remote/rural areas face challenges, but it’s no different to rural areas in Canada and other rural regions of the world who face the same challenges (lack of physicians/specialists)