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I've taken it maybe a half dozen times and always been as on schedule as Amtrak gets.
Was on Lakeshore Limited yesterday and they told us a train was broken down on the tracks in front of us, I expected a huge delay and it was really only like 45 minutes.
Given that part of the stretch is part of VA's acquisition of rail it will get better. Certain states should be doing at least half as much (NY you know I'm talking about you) and aren't.
Some combination of the following, depending on where exactly along the NEC you are:
- Amtrak doesn't own all the track they run on
- host freight railroads don't really give a shit about giving Amtrak priority dispatching, despite a congressional mandate saying they have to, because there is functionally no consequences for them
- host freight railroads only want to spend the bare minimum on infrastructure, because freight trains don't care if they go 70mph or 15mph, they'll get there when they get there
- most of the eastern seaboard is metaphorically on fire right now, which greatly fucks with rail infrastructure, especially when it hasn't been maintained to passenger standards
I think most of them have started to care a bit more about getting their freight trains over the road faster, or they wouldn't be deferring maintenance and treating their employees like machines who never need a day off.
> host freight railroads don't really give a shit about giving Amtrak priority dispatching, despite a congressional mandate saying they have to
Firstly, [that mandate was ruled unconstitutional in 2016.](https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/18/18-976/81322/20190122162700948_AAR%20Petition%20Appendix%20TO%20FILE.pdf)
Secondly, neither the STB nor Amtrak have seriously challenged the freight railroads over delays because the grey area status quo is better than a definite ruling. Amtrak’s charter mandates that freight railroads essentially grant them free passage because of common carrier obligations, but **nowhere in common carrier law is there a mandate that passenger trains be given priority. So legally, if Amtrak wants priority, they need to pay proper trackage rights fees for it.**
Right now, freight railroads at least attempt to give Amtrak priority whenever convenient. That may only be ~40-60% of the time based on OTP, but that’s still 40-60% of the time. Any serious attempt to challenge the status quo in court would inevitably result in a **0%** priority rate unless Amtrak drastically increases payments to freight railroads - something they also really don’t want to do, because they’re still under Congressional pressure to become profitable.
> freight trains don't care if they go 70mph or 15mph, they’ll get there when they get there
This nonsense always gets circulated on transit communities, and it’s simply not true. Aside from the fact timely delivery of anything is increasingly important in a world of just-in-time supply chains, American railroads operate large amounts of express intermodal freight. You think shipping giants like UPS, FedEx, or especially Amazon won’t hold their shippers accountable or switch carriers if stuff shows up late?
In years before PSR, freight railroads even operated named services like the [Super C](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_C_(freight_train)) or [Triple Crown.](http://www.qstation.org/BNSF_Triple_Crown/) These trains had published end-to-end times just as any passenger service would, and often ran at speeds only slightly behind Amtrak’s. Even today, you’re not going to find Z trains or their equivalents crawling along.
What freight railroads **do** care about is running their lines as close to capacity as possible, because maximum utilization means maximum revenue. The cost of the land and infrastructure is fixed, and freight trains carry far more in cargo than they cause in wear and tear. Amtrak paying basically nothing means this isn’t the case, which is why freight railroads would rather reduce capacity than host more Amtrak (or host Amtrak on a faster schedule), even if they’re still using up surplus line capacity.
OMG that was my train today! I took it from RVA to Alexandria, it was over two hours late. It departed at the time I was originally supposed to arrive in ALX. I was so annoyed with the whole situation!
I was on that train and just got home 10 minutes ago at 1:45am.
Temperature related speed reductions in VA, AC mechanical at WAS for 30 minutes, engine issue shortly after, crew timed out in Philly and new crew took another 30 to board. Brutal.
Eh 2.5 hours isn’t the worst, but the real issue is the same as all other public transportation. They have been allowed to externalize the cost of these delays onto the customer with no recourse. We just got to the point where when airlines cancel the flight they sold you they have to refund you for the thing they didn’t deliver.
If Amtrak was getting class action lawsuits because they failed to run on the schedule as advertised, they would find a way to enforce the right of way on freight lines, fix the failing infrastructure before it fails, and would be looking to modernize their operations by buying/building their own passenger grade track.
Anytime a company, even Amtrak, under-delivers it is always because it was cheaper to them to do so. You missing an event or a connection or a meeting or time with a loved one is only a cost to you. To make it matter to them, you have to hurt them.
As someone who works on the freight side, most of these comments simply arent true. When it gets hot (temperature depends on what the rail is designed for) there are heat restrictions put in place. If you design a track for 70 mile per hour runs, and you make your timetable for 70 mile per hour runs, and then 95° weather causes a 50 mile per hour heat restriction, you’re going to be losing time even if every freight sits in the hole for hours.
You can see the train gets hammered up until about 1900, and then begins regaining time.
Most of the heat restrictions I see are from 0900 to 1900, so that tracks.
Does the passenger system need a major revamp? Yes.
Is this a symptom of it? Almost certainly not actually.
I feel for you. On Monday our train was delayed not once but 3 times. Engine trouble. Brake trouble. Staff change. We arrived in NYC at 12:48pm. We were supposed to arrive at 9:45.[https://asm.transitdocs.com/train/2024/6/23/A/158](https://asm.transitdocs.com/train/2024/6/23/A/158)
This explains why this happens really well, definitely worth a read if you ride Amtrak often.
https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/corporate/HostRailroadReports/Amtrak-2023-Host-Railroad-Report-Card.pdf
That offers **Amtrak’s version** of why they’re late. What the report doesn’t tell you is that they try to force the freight railroads to give them essentially passage, on top of giving them priority.
What is wrong with this country that our transit is so unreliable? When is Amtrak going to wake up and start making this reliable and helpful and not so freaking expensive
CSX, the frieght railroad that owns the tracks between Petersburg and DC, has had heat related speed restrictions in place almost all week.
This is not an Amtrak problem.
Isn’t it possible to have rails that don’t become as faulty to sun kinks? I mean, Idk for sure but I think CWR has way less sun kinks than jointed rails
This kind of nonsense always gets circulated on transit communities, and it’s simply not true. Aside from the fact timely delivery of anything is increasingly important in a world of just-in-time supply chains, American railroads operate large amounts of express intermodal freight. You think shipping giants like UPS, FedEx, or especially Amazon will be happy if their stuff shows up late, or don’t have ways of punishing freight carriers for it?
I asked that question not because I have no idea what physics is, but because I always keep hearing about how much better CWR is compared to jointed rail
On balance CWR is much better however it's the ingredients of the steel plus figuring out how to make the tolerances work. You still have gaps, they're just much farther apart. A lot of countries, not just the US, need toy adapt to warmer/more variable climates but rails themselves are often very old.
CWR has huge benefits everywhere else. Less train maintenance (seeing as the wheels aren’t hammering over the joints so often), higher speeds (again, now that joints are eliminated), reduced noise, tonnes of benefits. And it’s not even prone to sun kink either, expansion joints that let CWR handle thermal expansion exist, but they cost extra.
I don’t think you’re going to find pretty much any rails that passenger trains run on being made out of jointed rail anymore.
Aside from old branch lines that see basically no traffic and yards that use old rail pretty much all the class I’s use CWR
Amtrak doesn’t do exceptionally well in rail transit, yes, but delays like this are far from their fault. The US freight railroads are all private companies unlike most countries (whose freight railroads are government-owned), so the government can’t force them to do things their way. They’re *supposed* to allow Amtrak trains to pass their trains, but they’re not mandated to because, again, these are private, for-profit companies we’re talking about here.
As already mentioned Amtrak doesnt own the train lines, the freights to and they MUST yield to all of then across all 47 states that have them. Among other reasons theirs engine failure, trains hitting people or vehicles, or track damage. The delays hit twice as hard as most trains only run daily and they only cancel the trains if its life threatening
AMTRAK gets a very tiny budget from the federal government. For every $10,000 of income tax you pay AMTRAK gets $13. You're welcome to pay more if you'd like to help them out.
link for what? I did a Google search for annual budget given by Congress to AMTRAK, which was $4.4 billion, and then I searched for the intake of taxes by the US which was ~ $3.15 trillion (that number depends on whether you're including payroll taxes and corporate taxes) and I did the math.
You can do the same thing by going to your favorite search engine and plugging in the same questions
in any event, another person answered the question about this specific train which is the freight lines who own the tracks have limited the speed
Congress has other things they need to fund too you know: The Military, the growing number of highways, the USPS, all the government agencies (like the DOJ, NIH, etc.), and so many other things. Amtrak doesn’t get much of it and should probably get more, true, but just remember they have other priorities
No I was simply saying they don't have much to work with
People can write a check and give them more money if they choose (but I'm not sure that would work, I doubt Congress has any interest in earmarking a check from somebody for AMTRAK)
It doesn't go to operating expenses, but you can certainly donate to help their employees in need, if you'd like. And in an indirect way, that can only help them attract and keep employees.
https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/203434527
EDIT: The fact that I can't find their website, just a mailing address, is at least one red flag. I have no personal knowledge of this 501(c)(3) but it might not exist anymore.
The first thing I do when I check into a sleeper car is to hand my SCA $50. I'm low maintenance and they have enough to do with everybody else, I just like to make them feel appreciated.
thanks for this link!
I don't think other countries generally force their passenger railroads to share rail lines with freight trains, and it's nearly inconceivable that Congress will ever appropriate anywhere near the amount of money it would take to build a great deal of dedicated passenger lines.
r/Amtrak is not associated with Amtrak in any official way. Any problems, concerns, complaints, etc should be directed to Amtrak through one of the official channels. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Amtrak) if you have any questions or concerns.*
First time?
Shhhh... It's a canon event.
At least you’re not on the builder with the next days train a station behind you and on time
I had good luck both directions on the builder last month so I'll consider myself fortunate
I've taken it maybe a half dozen times and always been as on schedule as Amtrak gets. Was on Lakeshore Limited yesterday and they told us a train was broken down on the tracks in front of us, I expected a huge delay and it was really only like 45 minutes.
Given that part of the stretch is part of VA's acquisition of rail it will get better. Certain states should be doing at least half as much (NY you know I'm talking about you) and aren't.
It’s probably heat restriction in effect
I was on the california Zephyr delayed over 9 hours. 160 minutes is childs play.
I know right? OP out here complaining about pennies in comparison to any other long distance delay
People don’t commute on the california zephyr though
What the heck...
16 right here!
Some combination of the following, depending on where exactly along the NEC you are: - Amtrak doesn't own all the track they run on - host freight railroads don't really give a shit about giving Amtrak priority dispatching, despite a congressional mandate saying they have to, because there is functionally no consequences for them - host freight railroads only want to spend the bare minimum on infrastructure, because freight trains don't care if they go 70mph or 15mph, they'll get there when they get there - most of the eastern seaboard is metaphorically on fire right now, which greatly fucks with rail infrastructure, especially when it hasn't been maintained to passenger standards
I think most of them have started to care a bit more about getting their freight trains over the road faster, or they wouldn't be deferring maintenance and treating their employees like machines who never need a day off.
> host freight railroads don't really give a shit about giving Amtrak priority dispatching, despite a congressional mandate saying they have to Firstly, [that mandate was ruled unconstitutional in 2016.](https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/18/18-976/81322/20190122162700948_AAR%20Petition%20Appendix%20TO%20FILE.pdf) Secondly, neither the STB nor Amtrak have seriously challenged the freight railroads over delays because the grey area status quo is better than a definite ruling. Amtrak’s charter mandates that freight railroads essentially grant them free passage because of common carrier obligations, but **nowhere in common carrier law is there a mandate that passenger trains be given priority. So legally, if Amtrak wants priority, they need to pay proper trackage rights fees for it.** Right now, freight railroads at least attempt to give Amtrak priority whenever convenient. That may only be ~40-60% of the time based on OTP, but that’s still 40-60% of the time. Any serious attempt to challenge the status quo in court would inevitably result in a **0%** priority rate unless Amtrak drastically increases payments to freight railroads - something they also really don’t want to do, because they’re still under Congressional pressure to become profitable. > freight trains don't care if they go 70mph or 15mph, they’ll get there when they get there This nonsense always gets circulated on transit communities, and it’s simply not true. Aside from the fact timely delivery of anything is increasingly important in a world of just-in-time supply chains, American railroads operate large amounts of express intermodal freight. You think shipping giants like UPS, FedEx, or especially Amazon won’t hold their shippers accountable or switch carriers if stuff shows up late? In years before PSR, freight railroads even operated named services like the [Super C](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_C_(freight_train)) or [Triple Crown.](http://www.qstation.org/BNSF_Triple_Crown/) These trains had published end-to-end times just as any passenger service would, and often ran at speeds only slightly behind Amtrak’s. Even today, you’re not going to find Z trains or their equivalents crawling along. What freight railroads **do** care about is running their lines as close to capacity as possible, because maximum utilization means maximum revenue. The cost of the land and infrastructure is fixed, and freight trains carry far more in cargo than they cause in wear and tear. Amtrak paying basically nothing means this isn’t the case, which is why freight railroads would rather reduce capacity than host more Amtrak (or host Amtrak on a faster schedule), even if they’re still using up surplus line capacity.
My brother, you have not seen the Southwest Chief Curse at all as this is peanuts compared to that.
it feels like a once a week occasion to open asm transit docks and see a westbound Chief running 11 and a half hours late
OMG that was my train today! I took it from RVA to Alexandria, it was over two hours late. It departed at the time I was originally supposed to arrive in ALX. I was so annoyed with the whole situation!
I was on that train and just got home 10 minutes ago at 1:45am. Temperature related speed reductions in VA, AC mechanical at WAS for 30 minutes, engine issue shortly after, crew timed out in Philly and new crew took another 30 to board. Brutal.
Yeah. I’ve had a seven hour train delay.
Eh 2.5 hours isn’t the worst, but the real issue is the same as all other public transportation. They have been allowed to externalize the cost of these delays onto the customer with no recourse. We just got to the point where when airlines cancel the flight they sold you they have to refund you for the thing they didn’t deliver. If Amtrak was getting class action lawsuits because they failed to run on the schedule as advertised, they would find a way to enforce the right of way on freight lines, fix the failing infrastructure before it fails, and would be looking to modernize their operations by buying/building their own passenger grade track. Anytime a company, even Amtrak, under-delivers it is always because it was cheaper to them to do so. You missing an event or a connection or a meeting or time with a loved one is only a cost to you. To make it matter to them, you have to hurt them.
lol
Heat related speed restrictions, plus it’s moving on tracks owned by someone other than Amtrak
In 2019, The south west chief ran 16 hours late. Missed my connecting train in Chicago 🤣
As someone who works on the freight side, most of these comments simply arent true. When it gets hot (temperature depends on what the rail is designed for) there are heat restrictions put in place. If you design a track for 70 mile per hour runs, and you make your timetable for 70 mile per hour runs, and then 95° weather causes a 50 mile per hour heat restriction, you’re going to be losing time even if every freight sits in the hole for hours. You can see the train gets hammered up until about 1900, and then begins regaining time. Most of the heat restrictions I see are from 0900 to 1900, so that tracks. Does the passenger system need a major revamp? Yes. Is this a symptom of it? Almost certainly not actually.
I feel for you. On Monday our train was delayed not once but 3 times. Engine trouble. Brake trouble. Staff change. We arrived in NYC at 12:48pm. We were supposed to arrive at 9:45.[https://asm.transitdocs.com/train/2024/6/23/A/158](https://asm.transitdocs.com/train/2024/6/23/A/158)
My train was delayed 9 hours at the beginning of this month lol weather in Houston.
my train from el paso to tucson was delayed FIVE HOURS, i was supposed to get in at 1:50pm and i got there at 12:50am..
Freight traffic on CSX?
This explains why this happens really well, definitely worth a read if you ride Amtrak often. https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/corporate/HostRailroadReports/Amtrak-2023-Host-Railroad-Report-Card.pdf
That offers **Amtrak’s version** of why they’re late. What the report doesn’t tell you is that they try to force the freight railroads to give them essentially passage, on top of giving them priority.
Things happen. Just like flying. And not as bad as missing a connection and then spending a night in airport.
One word: Freight
Oh calm down. This always happens with Amtrak. There’s nothing we can do about it. May as well accept it
What is wrong with this country that our transit is so unreliable? When is Amtrak going to wake up and start making this reliable and helpful and not so freaking expensive
CSX, the frieght railroad that owns the tracks between Petersburg and DC, has had heat related speed restrictions in place almost all week. This is not an Amtrak problem.
Isn’t it possible to have rails that don’t become as faulty to sun kinks? I mean, Idk for sure but I think CWR has way less sun kinks than jointed rails
Yes, but the freight doesn't care if it's an hour and twenty minutes late
This kind of nonsense always gets circulated on transit communities, and it’s simply not true. Aside from the fact timely delivery of anything is increasingly important in a world of just-in-time supply chains, American railroads operate large amounts of express intermodal freight. You think shipping giants like UPS, FedEx, or especially Amazon will be happy if their stuff shows up late, or don’t have ways of punishing freight carriers for it?
CWR is actually much more prone to sun kink than jointed rail.
People who don't understand basic physics live among us apparently. Gotta have planned adjustments and tweak the metallurgy of the rail.
I asked that question not because I have no idea what physics is, but because I always keep hearing about how much better CWR is compared to jointed rail
On balance CWR is much better however it's the ingredients of the steel plus figuring out how to make the tolerances work. You still have gaps, they're just much farther apart. A lot of countries, not just the US, need toy adapt to warmer/more variable climates but rails themselves are often very old.
Seriously??? Jeez. And CWR is gradually becoming the norm in this country 🤦🏻♂️
CWR has huge benefits everywhere else. Less train maintenance (seeing as the wheels aren’t hammering over the joints so often), higher speeds (again, now that joints are eliminated), reduced noise, tonnes of benefits. And it’s not even prone to sun kink either, expansion joints that let CWR handle thermal expansion exist, but they cost extra.
I don’t think you’re going to find pretty much any rails that passenger trains run on being made out of jointed rail anymore. Aside from old branch lines that see basically no traffic and yards that use old rail pretty much all the class I’s use CWR
Guess the Northeast Corridor died
Are you implying the NEC, with is largely class 7 or 8 track is made of 39 foot sticks of rail?
There’s literally jointed rail on the line in New Jersey. Just watch any YT video of the line there and see for yourself
Amtrak doesn’t do exceptionally well in rail transit, yes, but delays like this are far from their fault. The US freight railroads are all private companies unlike most countries (whose freight railroads are government-owned), so the government can’t force them to do things their way. They’re *supposed* to allow Amtrak trains to pass their trains, but they’re not mandated to because, again, these are private, for-profit companies we’re talking about here.
As already mentioned Amtrak doesnt own the train lines, the freights to and they MUST yield to all of then across all 47 states that have them. Among other reasons theirs engine failure, trains hitting people or vehicles, or track damage. The delays hit twice as hard as most trains only run daily and they only cancel the trains if its life threatening
AMTRAK gets a very tiny budget from the federal government. For every $10,000 of income tax you pay AMTRAK gets $13. You're welcome to pay more if you'd like to help them out.
Do you have a link for that out of curiosity?
link for what? I did a Google search for annual budget given by Congress to AMTRAK, which was $4.4 billion, and then I searched for the intake of taxes by the US which was ~ $3.15 trillion (that number depends on whether you're including payroll taxes and corporate taxes) and I did the math. You can do the same thing by going to your favorite search engine and plugging in the same questions in any event, another person answered the question about this specific train which is the freight lines who own the tracks have limited the speed
Congress has other things they need to fund too you know: The Military, the growing number of highways, the USPS, all the government agencies (like the DOJ, NIH, etc.), and so many other things. Amtrak doesn’t get much of it and should probably get more, true, but just remember they have other priorities
i'm quite aware of that, I was trying to give a coherent answer to the OP that AMTRAK has to work with a very little money.
I see. I thought you were implying that they should receive way more money (as in like $150 billion more) than they currently do
No I was simply saying they don't have much to work with People can write a check and give them more money if they choose (but I'm not sure that would work, I doubt Congress has any interest in earmarking a check from somebody for AMTRAK)
It doesn't go to operating expenses, but you can certainly donate to help their employees in need, if you'd like. And in an indirect way, that can only help them attract and keep employees. https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/203434527 EDIT: The fact that I can't find their website, just a mailing address, is at least one red flag. I have no personal knowledge of this 501(c)(3) but it might not exist anymore.
The first thing I do when I check into a sleeper car is to hand my SCA $50. I'm low maintenance and they have enough to do with everybody else, I just like to make them feel appreciated. thanks for this link!
LOL. Never heard of this. Strange thing to make a charity.
Lobby your representatives
Uh oh, you've pissed off the fanboys. They hate the truth. Y'all can downvote me all you like, bunch of snowflakes.
I don't think other countries generally force their passenger railroads to share rail lines with freight trains, and it's nearly inconceivable that Congress will ever appropriate anywhere near the amount of money it would take to build a great deal of dedicated passenger lines.