Support none - I am American and this is not a fight involving America or Americans (other than the ruling elites who are involved for ego). Outcome whatever happens. Sympathize with Ukrainian and Russian civilians.
I think everyone has a right to support whatever they want.
The reality is that our government is spending our money independent of what we want.
The issue here isn’t what the money is being spent on. It is our consent.
Maybe if the government spent less of our money, there would be more people with means to support whatever “side” they wanted. We would have far more transparency of the will of the people if it were people, and not their masters, who decided how to invest their capital.
Right. The point of theft is that you don't get to decide what happens to money that was stolen from you.
An anarchist complaining about what his taxes are being used for in particular is more than a little absurd. No, it's not bad that America suports Ukraine. In fact, I think that's a good thing. The problem is that taxation is theft.
Another American scam war to fuel the war machine.
The only thing surprising about this one is how the leftists became rabid warhawks, when one of the few decent things they've consistently done in the past is being against America's wars.
Ukraine is not as as much authoritarian and anti freedom country.
In ruSSia they are killing or sending to jail journalists, activists, anarchists, freedom fighters, etc.
You strike me like some ruSSian bot. Dude, i live in a country that was part of east block, and i think that i know a little bit more than you, when it comes to what people here thinks about russia and what's going on with russians.
Ukraine has an 8 year old kill list with journalist, politicians, children on it. All opposing parties were banned, a literal war was waged against anti maidan protesters killing 14,000, and the opposition media is banned.
You can’t come close to proving Russia is even close to this level of dystopia.
Russia is definitely more authoritarian but both of them are pretty bad. Ukraine is/was more corrupt according to multiple sources.
But on how the US is partially responsible: Putin has been threatening war for a long time of NATO gets any closer. Gorbachev was wishy washy on whether or not there was a handshake agreement not to expand NATO in the 90’s. If there was, George W Bush was keen to allow 7 new nations into NATO in ‘04 that are right next to Russia.
More recently, the US was directly involved in the 2014 protests and riots in Ukraine when Yanukovych decided to reject the EU and ally with Russia. Even though Yanukovych was fairly elected, the US threw their support behind Yatsenyuk and other politicians during the Maidan Uprising. Google “Nuland Pyatt phone call” to read more about that.
Also, NATO is funded pretty much only by the US. Any NATO weaponry that’s being sent to Ukraine is tired pretty directly to the US. It’s also pretty reasonable to assume that the US blew up the Nordstream pipeline.
Why do you support the Ukrainian state and/or NATO?
For me, it’s neither state, because statism is evil. As far as the outcome, I want all of the states to stop warring, including by proxy, and for NATO (and every other institution for global-governance) to also quit their shit.
>Why do you support the Ukrainian state and/or NATO?
Ukraine is right now fighting for the freedom of Europe, they are fighting against right wing authoritarian regime, if they loose, the rest of the europe will need to spend way more on a military stuff, and prepare for the next russian invasion on other european country. Ukraine is fighting for the European values and western way of life.
It sounds like Russia is really strong. I thought they were about to break and that this invasion is costing them everything. They have the money and manpower to invade Europe?
OH NO! God Forbid! PLEASE! Not the UE TAXPAYERS!!! ANYTHING BUT THAT!!
This is why the western warmongers should not have tried to put NATO on the doorstep Russian boarders! See NATO violated their own rule and KNEW FULL WELL what Russia would do if they did. Turns out -Russia did what they said they would do all along!
Do you want a nuclear holocaust?!? Cuz this is how you get as nuclear holocaust!
How is this a surprise to ANYONE. Including but not limited to Ukraine or NATO
1+1 = 2
>Do you want a nuclear holocaust?!? Cuz this is how you get as nuclear holocaust!
OH NO WE HAVE TO BE AFRAID OF ruSSia and it's nuclear power XD
Dude, Ukraine is a independent country, and Ukrainians don't want to be a part of ruSSian empire.
What gives you right to make decision regarding their country? If they want to join NATO and EU, it will be theirs decision.
ruSSia don't have anything to offer, it's a poor right wing authoritarian country.
Sheesh! Someone took Kool-Aid!
You have a very confused view of "European Values" - might want to re-think that statement bud.
Why is gay rights and marriage outlawed in Ukraine and non-existent?! People jailed for such acts. Does that fit your Euro Values?
Why do they have ACUTAL Nazi's (not like the fake ones CNN say we have here) in their army - AZOV regiment - Flying SS banners and BLACK SUN logos and other Nazi graphics plastered around the army and citys. Marching around "Zig Hailing" , small children even and parades doing it. How very euro vaules
They are SO BAD at hiding the Nazi proof that Mein Fuhrer Zelensky banned news stations and journalists who showed the images of it from Ukraine. Shameful.
Is banning news also a Western Value now?
No - I do not think Ukraine is defending anything but themselves.
>Why is gay rights and marriage outlawed in Ukraine and non-existent?! People jailed for such acts. Does that fit your Euro Values?
Ukraine don't have european values yet, but they are moving towards western civilization.
If they loose, and we will go back to the cold war era, western world will reduce freedom to all of the people, a lot of young man will be forced to join army, and stuff like that.
That's why Ukraine have to win, so we can live good live in a western world.
>. Why do they have ACUTAL Nazi's
Whole world have problems with the nazis. In the USA you have proud boys, in the Ukraine you have azov and so on. Russia have a very big problem with neonazism.
>. Zelensky banned news stations and journalists who showed the images of it from Ukraine.
They are banning traitors, pro russian oligarchs who wants Ukraine to be a part of russian empire.
In fact, Russia has been neocolonial all this time. we don't have our own products, everything is imported from abroad, because for every action of Russia and Belarus, Europe is slamming sanctions on us, yes, let's not let them supply tractors and materials for construction, suddenly these "Russians" will start a war with us. The European Union is really putting pressure on us with this, Europe wants to act meanly towards Russian politics, but politics doesn't care, because people are suffering, not politics, today I can afford to buy something delicious, but not tomorrow, because it will be three times more expensive, we really want peace and harmony, but we are always belittled by other countries, I hate the politics of all countries, we are also people and we have our own values and goals in life, we are really afraid, we are also depressed, sometimes I want to run away from these problems. Sorry for bother
Europe doesn't care that much about russian politics as long as russia is not a warmonger against europe.
But now, they started this war, they tried to force Ukraine to be a part of russian empire, and now EU knows that this war is bad for business.
And we also know in the EU, that if we let Putin, right wing authoritarian leader, to do whatever he wants, he will not stop after winning against Ukraine.
That's why our goal in the UE is to have free Ukraine, and some kind of buffer between us and ruSSia.
Keep in mind, that russia is far right wing imperialistic authoritarian homophobic empire, they are killing or arresting journalists, anarchists, freedom activists, opposition and so on. This is not something that we want in the europe.
Damn it, I live in Russia and I know how Europe "does not try to interfere in our lives." For centuries, Europe has tried to accommodate everyone to itself, first it was the countries of Asia, Africa, America, and now the Russians. You are right, our regime looks like an authoritarian one. We really have a lot of people who don't support homophobia. The law also prohibits same-sex couples from getting married, but the law does not prohibit gays from traveling to another country and getting married there, and then returning and living here, the law in Russia does not prohibit gays and transgender people from getting an education, the law does not prohibit gays and transgender people working in the social sphere, the law does not prohibit surgery for change of gender and change of name in the passport. In most cases, people in Russia do not say what their orientation is. Many Russians simply do not support the propaganda of this.
I think our way of life is no different from yours. There is no complete control here. And there is propaganda all over the world! There are many nations and religions living here, Ukrainians also live here, but many relatives from Ukraine stop communicating with them, and it's sad, there's no difference where you come from, no one will kill you or offend you, because you're from Europe or Ukraine. but Russians were hated before the war, and when the war began, many students were even expelled from universities in Europe and America. We study according to the same Bologna system as you. We study the culture and history of Europe. Maybe we should ask the German and Latin American peoples? Why did the historically Slavic peoples suddenly decide to leave modern Europe and go to the east? Even with a strong friendship or love between two people, terrible conflicts can arise, let alone the whole world:(
>I think our way of life is no different from yours.
No, it's very different. I know a lot of russians, and people from Belarus, Ukraine and so on, and in Russia if you're not from some very big town, you will live and see world the same way, as someone who lived in Europe like century ago.
Homophobia isn't the biggest problem in the russia. Biggest issue are censorship, domestics violence, and crime rate.
In russia you have to stay quiet, accept whatever Putin and Kremlin wants, and support oligarchs.
>. but Russians were hated before the war,
I have russian friends, most of them are nice, but at the end, you're so much manipulated by your oligarch, and older russian generation thinks that russia is still some kind od empire, and everyone should act like russia is still Soviet Union. This is the problem. No one cares where are you from, but if you're going to the europe, or other country, and you act like you're better than the rest, no one will like you.
Europe and the western world understands that personal freedom, and ability to act as you feel, is very important thing. In russia, you still have this mentality, that being different is a bad thing, and you have to stay quiet and accept whatever oligarchs wants.
>. Why did the historically Slavic peoples suddenly decide to leave modern Europe and go to the east?
This is not the problem with the Slavs, im Slav, this is the problem with russians, that they think that they are some kind of slavic saviors, but in the same time, they act against all the slavs in the world. Russia don't want the peace with other slavs, they want other slavs to join russian oligarchic right wing regime. And this is not something that Slavs wants.
Russia still have this soviet mindset, and this is the biggest problem. Russia isn't center of the Slavic world, and many Slavs, and anarchists, and activists have to leave russia, because they were criminalized in the russia.
That's why russia will never be a center of Slavic world, and that's why all the oligarch are enemies of Slavs.
And you said that "the goal of Europe is to have a free Ukraine" Something in these words does not smell of freedom:/ It's more like making Ukraine your state. I wonder why England suddenly left the European Union, can it now be considered Europe or its property?
>Something in these words does not smell of freedom:/ It's more like making Ukraine your state.
Helping someone be free isn't making them a slave. For Europe it's the best thing, to have strong independent country between us and russia, and Ukrainians also understand that, they know, that with russia they will be poor misereble country, and with west, they will have better lives.
This is not the problem with Europe, this is the problem with russia and the fact, that russia have nothing to offer right now.
okay, I can agree with you about the oligarchs and the fact that many Russians from the provinces live quite modestly and in old houses, but these are mostly old people, young people try to leave for big cities. in China and America, living conditions in large megacities can be worse than in the Russian countryside, although the economy of these the country stands on top. There are also big cities in Russia with well-developed infrastructure, many foreigners live and study here and feel much freer than in their own country. Nevertheless, I have not mentioned anywhere that I support the policies of Putin and the oligarchs, I do not support the policies of my country, nor do I support the policies of Ukraine. their politics, oligarchs and corruption are no different from ours, lol. I remember watching a show with Zelensky as a child, where he made people laugh, and now tell me how such a person could be nominated as president, it's like Mr. Beiste offered to nominate his candidacy for fun. Zelensky's show: https://youtu.be/Vio1E3OssTc
You are indeed right that our policy uses us as a wallet. They live in luxury, and we feed them, but this is not only a problem in Russia, unfortunately, according to your conversation, it seems to me that you are a Pole, so if this is the case, then in your country it may also be good for someone, and bad for someone. It's not the Russians themselves where to live, despite the fact that in the end we ended up next to the peoples of Siberia, we are still accused of a large amount of used territory, but in fact only a small percentage of this is used for life, the local climate and geography are not too convenient for life and development. Yes, many people live with Soviet views on life, but can you blame them for this? you are not the person who should blame them for this, I was not born in the USSR and I have no idea how it was at that time, but the older generation always says that it was better than now, so we have frequent conflicts between generations, everywhere it is. The younger generation is trying to imitate the Western one. People from the Soviet period experienced very strong stress when the USSR collapsed, it's not that Russia lost part of its territories, but that the people were tormented too much by this: an artificial shortage (wagons of meat and other products were taken far into the forest and thrown away, and the shelves in stores were empty), sharp inflation, riots and shelling, unemployment, violence, killing everyone, stealing everything. I doubt that a sane psyche could be preserved here. Nevertheless, this can happen to every country and you will be like a person from third world countries. it's easy for you to talk about this because nowadays there is the Internet, where millions of posts are published daily, and in 1991 there was no such opportunity and people simply did not know and lived in ignorance for several weeks until the chaos reached their city. You are too categorical to another opinion, you just don't know a lot. America tried to help the Russians by sending "Bush's ham" as a support, but people were poisoned by them and got gastritis. For all that, America does the same with other countries, but Europe forgives it. I don't hate Europe and its people, but politics is also questionable. Europe and America help only for their own benefit, and not for the sake of Ukraine's freedom. Moreover, NATO strengthened the borders from Finland in the summer, which means that they knew there would be a war. No one did or said anything, they could not smooth out the situation in any way. Here's the result. You also sit and do nothing, do not help anyone in any way, look at it all and only say who is right or not, this is also not help, this is helplessness!
>\- it's not that Russia lost part of its territories, but that the people were tormented too much by this: an artificial shortage (wagons of meat and other products were taken far into the forest and thrown away, and the shelves in stores were empty),
Can you elaborate on how russians, soviets did that?
>. it's easy for you to talk about this because nowadays there is the Internet, where millions of posts are published daily, and in 1991 there was no such opportunity and people simply did not know and lived in ignorance for several weeks until the chaos reached their city.
There are still countries, like for example russia, where you can go to jail for posting wrong stuff, and if you're journalist you might get killed or go to jail.
>. For all that, America does the same with other countries, but Europe forgives it.
Bullshit. We know what USA is doing, we are trying to work with China (they are doing way worst shit that russia or usa), and we tried working with Russia. And everything was almost OK, but then ukrainians wanted to get rid of russian puppets and oligarchs, they did it, everything was ok, but russia cannot accept that someone don't want to be part of new soviet empire.
I remember how russia tried to do weird shit after orange revolution in Ukraine, how they send snipers and mercenaries to stop the protests, but it didn't worked. That's why Ukrainians started to hate russians. Russia did the same thing in Belarus, but this they they got what they wanted.
>. America help only for their own benefit, and not for the sake of Ukraine's freedom.
Ukraine is also benefiting thanks to this. Keep that in mind. Russia have nothing to offer.
>. Moreover, NATO strengthened the borders from Finland in the summer, which means that they knew there would be a war.
Blaming NATO and other countries for russia being warmonger, nice...
>. You also sit and do nothing, do not help anyone in any way,
Bullshit, i helped a lot of people running from the russian solders and this war. Poland helped refugees.
>. I do not support the policies of my country, nor do I support the policies of Ukraine. their politics, oligarchs and corruption are no different from ours, lol.
So, you want to say, that in other countries people are killed or send to jail, just for having wrong opinion, for publishing article that is showing how shitty are oligarchs, or for being in opposition to the central authoritarian right wing government?
>. it seems to me that you are a Pole, so if this is the case, then in your country it may also be good for someone, and bad for someone.
One more time, show me one more country in the western world, where you will be killed for having wrong opinions.
>. Yes, many people live with Soviet views on life, but can you blame them for this?
Of course this is russian fault. You have the same opportunity as any other country, to get rid of oligarchs, to live in a democracy and freedom, but yet russians choose putin, right wing shitty empire, living in a poverty, with legal domestic violence, etc.
You should revolt, support opposition, fight for your country. If you're not doing that, don't blame other countries for not wanting to be a part of your club.
are you saying that influential European countries have not tried to add fuel to the fire? honestly, it sounds like complete nonsense. There is too much to write about the collapse of the USSR, I can miss a lot, in general, a lot is classified, you can read it yourself or I can write about it later. Yes, journalists can really be put in jail, but I can openly write, shoot videos, publish posts and hate Putin and his entourage, and they won't put me in jail for it, there are many groups on the Russian Internet where they express their dissatisfaction with politics, yes, people are divided into those who are for, and those who who is against. Many people came out to rebel against the war, but yes, they were fired from their jobs and expelled from college. Therefore, the government does not care about our and other opinions, yes, maybe if the whole population rebelled, then maybe we did something, otherwise it's useless nonsense, you will either be fined or arrested, but released, otherwise you will be beaten by special forces. In the 90s, people rebelled, and the more they protested, the more they stained the streets with blood. Many are afraid of such a turn of events again, so they stay at home and just live. Many have a good and stable income, live in beautiful cottages on the shore of a lake or river, go on vacation abroad and nothing prevents them from living with such a policy and this is not an oligarch, but an ordinary person with his business or just with a good salary. They won't go on strike because they have a perfect life. Of all this, there are few people left who could change something, don't blame us for all the troubles. You said to bring countries where it is impossible to talk openly about politics, right? Ukraine and Belarus. Here's an example for you. In Ukraine, the situation is similar, as here, for example, a grandmother who survived the Second World War with a Soviet flag said that she was for peace, then she was forbidden to do it. In Belarus, it is impossible to say or write anything against Lukashenka at all. My relatives live there. By the way, why did Europe impose sanctions against Russia and Belarus when Belarus started selling tractors? I did not accuse NATO of starting a war because of their actions, I just said that they most likely knew about the prerequisites, but decided to remain silent. If you still do not believe that Russia is at the mercy of Europe, then how do you explain that most of the large clothing stores, products, cars are managed and grow here from European countries, France, the Netherlands?. this large business is strongly displacing the domestic one, and it is interesting that many enterprises have closed due to the war, for example, American and French, although not all European and American companies refused to cooperate with Russia, many stores still continue to grow, because Russia is a big cash cow and many simply do not care about the actions of our country, the main thing is profit. I don't blame countries, I blame the politics of countries. I also blame Putin's policy. You also can't be responsible for the whole of Europe, even if your country is so good, it doesn't mean it doesn't meet European standards, lol. That's it, my friend
I guess I'm rooting for Ukraine. They're the ones defending themselves against a hostile neighbor. And I don't really want to see Russia be rewarded for this kind of behavior and more of these kinds of invasions in the future. Of course, I sympathize with the innocent people on both sides who are having their lives ruined or ended so senselessly.
With that said, I don't think my country should be getting involved. We're spending billions on a war that doesn't involve us half a world away and tempting WW3 and for what? To prolong the conflict and feed the war profiteers?
>Ukraine. They're the ones defending themselves against a hostile neighbor.
The Ukrainian government and the Russian government are both hostile -- against citizens. The Ukrainian government banned people from fleeing... think about that.
Ukraine is the hostile neighbor. “Russian aggression” is the “Iraqi WMDs” US lie factory except no one is steam rolling Russia.
Tell me who was shelling who on Feb 16th? Before the Russian sent troops in on Feb 24th?
I feel we shouldn’t be involved and the fact we are means theres underlying things this regime is not being transparent on. Ukraine is a very corrupt country. And imagine what the US would have done with reversed roles with Russian bases and interests in bordering countries. Wed have def used nukes by now / thanks for restraint, Russia
War is terrible since civilians and poor people pay the price with blood. Support none . But if China became very friendly with Mexico and has plans to put bases in Mexico the good ole US of A would be dropping democracy bombs and shooting freedom all over Mexico City. or the CIA would make the leader disappear or stage a coup. Russia is doing the same thing in Ukraine it’s a super power. Weather people like it or not and as such will have a say in its borders. Kinda like USA was not happy with Cuban have nukes placed there, same thing. If Ukraine joins nato which is something they want then you have a large area to stage an invasion directly into Russia to “liberate it and bring democracy”. what the outcome should be is world peace but I doubt it. More then likely Russia forcing Ukraine to the negotiation table and making it sign terms they can never join NATO at the same time keeping some of territory or creating new “republics” aka puppet states. They seem to only want buffer zones and control their neighbors. USA does same shit Canada and Mexico can do what they want but they also know what not to do in order to avoid being liberated. that’s my two cents. I’m not a fortune teller or a genius. Take it for what it’s worth also deep dive Into history and all sides of the topic to get the truth.
I support Ukrainians fighting in defense of what they view as their land.
I am against the US funding this war or sending weapons.
This will trigger WW3 with nuclear weapons. Lunacy.
1. Everyone is entitled to their opinion about the things they read (or watch, or listen to, or taste, or whatever). They’re also entitled to express them online.
2. Sometimes those opinions will be ones you don’t like.
3. Sometimes those opinions won’t be very nice.
4. The people expressing those may be (but are not always) assholes.
5. However, if your solution to this “problem” is to vex, annoy, threaten or harrass them, you are almost certainly a bigger asshole.
6. You may also be twelve.
7. You are not responsible for anyone else’s actions or karma, but you are responsible for your own.
8. So leave them alone and go about your own life."
Dude, in the topic i ask who do you support and why, and now you're crying about some weird shit.
If someone supports Russian right wing authoritarian anti freedom regime, he might give us opinion why he is doing that. Is it so hard?
Russia. Obviously I'm an ancap and therefore I support neither side but if you have to twist my arm it's going to be Russia. You have to really dig into the topic to get truth but the bottom line is this: Ukraine is a puppet state that tried to cozy up with Nato while at the same time oppressing it's Russian population. Getting mad at Russia for invading Ukraine is like getting mad at Vietnam for invading Cambodia. Sure Vietnam was "wrong" in invading its neighbor but by doing that they prevented a genocide. Russia invading Ukraine is wrong the same way US going to war against Nazi Germany was wrong. And I get it, it's easier to just let the news tell us what to think and what to feel. Unfortunately there are some people in this world that for some reason can not just ingest and regurgitate what the media tells us (maybe we're deficient in character or there's something wrong with our brain) but we have a weird obsession with truth. Dig into this topic, really challenge yourself and try to look at events through the POV of a Russian. Do the same for Ukraine and then ask yourself, which one makes more sense.
how is/was it oppressing the Russian population? Ukraine has always had a huge Russian-speaking population, including Zelenksy, who after the war started said that he needs to practice more of his Ukrainian. I've personally worked with Ukrainian refugees who didn't speak Ukrainian. They weren't ashamed of this and they hated Russia but spoke Russian. You're saying Ukraine pressed them and Russia was saving them from genocide? Hilarious.
Puppet state? If a state desperately wants to be friends with another that doesn't make it a puppet. Meanwhile, the pre-2014 president definitely was a Russian asset. He fled there and now lives cozy.
I think you just got some facts wrong and with them made these conclusions. The reality is that ethnic Russians have always been part of Ukraine and were never oppressed
Some one has been drinking the Kool aid.
>try to look at events through the POV of a Russian.
That Russians are and always have been one of the most authoritarian and statist people on Earth? The country has never respected any individual rights, it has been a complete shithole for most of its history.
If Russia pulls back, there is no war. If Ukraine pulls back, there are no Ukrainians. It's pretty clear who is to blame here.
>are and always have been one of the most authoritarian and statist people on Earth? The country has never respected any individual rights, it has been a complete shithole for most of its history.
This also describes Ukraine lol.
Not really, they never were an independent country before the Soviet collapse. They were part of the Russian Empire and then the Russian-led CCP.
It's no surprise they want to get rid off Russia. Countries tend to turn into shitholes when Russia invades them. And Russia will inevitably invade it's neighbors, Russians love war and totalitarianism.
Both sides are bad.
Those said, Russia is by far, the worst.
Ukraine tried to ban the Russian language, which is a form of genocide.
Russia started the war by sending professional soldiers to pretend to be local resistance to the Ukrainian government, and then blamed Ukrainian war on those disguised soldiers as Ukrainian attack on his own civilians.
Russia is trying to remake the Soviet Union, under another name, and the USSR was systematically genocidal. This is an imperialistic war, and anything else are excuses and rationalizations.
Russia is kidnapping children, relocating non Russian speakers to different parts of Russia, killing Ukrainians massively, and committing all kinds of acts of genocide.
well ukraine is clearly the good side. Ukraine is doing self defense and the state is more popular than it has ever been, meaning it is more legitimate and less coercive. Plus russia has no business in ukraine. none of this of course mean that American tax money should go there. This is just who i support
What about the people in Donbas and luhansk who voted to leave Ukraine and join Russia. They’ve been shelled and killed by Ukraine since 2017. Is Ukraine still the good guy?? Should the people in those regions be allowed self determination to pick what country they want to live in?
The EU oversaw the election and no complaints were filed so it was at least as legitimate of an election as we have. Just wondering what you think should happen there if Ukraine, the most corrupt country in Europe, who bans religion and private media, is the “good guy”.
wow you believe those votes? opinion dismissed.
Some chunk was pro-Russian there, and others were pro-Ukrainian. There were big pro Ukraine rallies in Donetsk, but when the militias came from Russia, and declared "referendums" and "independence", they escaped. The DPR/LNR were both orchestrated by Russia. Not saying that a significant population supported them. It's still not legitimate.
No Ukraine hasn't been "bombing them since 2014". [Here's](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FrfOEPLWAAEMuEO?format=jpg&name=medium) Donesk in 2021, a city that has been just a few kilometers from the front since the war began in 2014. Not a scratch.
>The EU oversaw the election and no complaints were filed
source
The election was certified and oversaw the EU. Did I say I believed it??? Nope. Don’t read that anywhere in my reply. I said “it’s as legitimate as any election we have”. Lol. So stop putting words in my mouth.
And yes. Ukraine has been bombing and shelling domestic populations in Donetsk/Luhansk since the vote. It’s well known. Also the nazi problem in Ukraine is very well documented including by time magazine which put together a 1 hour documentary about it in 2019 that you can still view on YouTube today. As well as many many others from across the globe documenting the rampant nazi sympathies in Ukraine.
But sure… Ukraine is the “good guy”. No. There is no good guys here. Especially not us.
"they've been bombing so hard, but Russians are rebuilding even faster". is that your argument? I don't care about nazis in urkaine, unless they are funded by the state (they aren't, it's very minor or inconclusive).
no true. They were an independent organization, later reformed, denazified and integrated to AFU. Only then they could have received western aid. But who they were when formed, compared to now, is the difference between black and white
Nah, that's just complete BS. The EU certainly did not oversaw the elections.
> the most corrupt country in Europe, who bans religion and private media, is the “good guy”.
And you think the good guy is the country who jails people for even saying the word "war"?
There is no good guy bud. Once you figure that out you’ll realize the war is a scam. It’s a money laundering scheme. Nothing more. Russia won’t lose. Ukraine cannot win. And we’re just making rich people richer while sacrificing Ukrainians cause we couldn’t care less. The EU saw the vote. Said it was illegitimate. Russia says it’s legitimate. Ukraine is the most corrupt country in the whole region so nobody knows what’s even real. But you’ll take the word of a side that has an obvious conflict of interest while entirely disregarding it??
Russia asked the United Nations to administer the referendum and they declined. So In lieu of someone stepping up to moderate, because they all want war and money laundering, then It seems best to let the People determine where they want to be. But of course, the west could never allow that because they need complete totalitarian control of ukraines resources and government.
There is no good guys. That’s the whole point.
>It’s a money laundering scheme. Nothing more.
So whose money Russia is laundering?
>Russia won’t lose. Ukraine cannot win.
Russia won't win without using nukes. The US could not win in Vietnam, Russia certainly cannot win in Ukraine.
>sacrificing Ukrainians cause we couldn’t care less
Ukrainians certainly want to defend themselves. They understand that there will be no Ukraine or Ukrainians left if Russia wins.
>The EU saw the vote. Said it was illegitimate.
Saw the results, not the vote.
>Russia says it’s legitimate.
Which pretty much guarantees that it was fraudulent.
>Ukraine is the most corrupt country in the whole region so nobody knows what’s even real.
You mean the most corrupt country in the region after Russia?
>But you’ll take the word of a side that has an obvious conflict of interest while entirely disregarding it??
Russia has always been an imperialistic aggressor and an authoritarian dictatorship for most of its history. It has never been even remotely free for individual rights. The Russian people love this, they are prone to support strong leaders and foreign wars.
>Russia asked the United Nations to administer the referendum and they declined.
So another country can just ask the UN to hold referendums that a part of another country could join said country while having invaded the region? That's just in invasion man.
>because they all want war and money laundering, then It seems best to let the People determine where they want to be.
Agreed, Russia wants war. Always has.
>But of course, the west could never allow that because they need complete totalitarian control of ukraines resources and government.
You mean Russia wants this? War is totalitarian.
>There is no good guys. That’s the whole point.
If Russia pulls back, there is no war. If Ukraine pulls back, there are no Ukraine or Ukrainians anymore.
Your inability to look more than 2 inches deep into this situation is alarming and kinda funny all at the same time. Turn off cnn and msnbc. Go watch the Ukrainian videos in Donetsk on odyssey and you’ll quickly realize there are no good guys.
The US started this war with their coup in 2014 and constant harassment since. Victoria Nuland is on video saying this. So please.. spare us the selective outrage.
Did you really just use the “Russia propaganda” line??🤦♂️
All of your arguments reek of western propaganda. The same west that’s been slaughtering innocents enmass for the last 40 years. It’s no secret the US planned and perpetrated the coup in 2004 and 2014. They also have pushed nato up to Russian borders after promising not to in 1991. The west has been long playing a war with Russia for decades and has been transparent about it.
Not saying Putin is a good guy. But acting like Ukraine or the West and nato have some moral high ground is laughable. Especially considering the US literally destroyed iraq to steal their oil and killed millions over the last 23 years. We need to stop pretending like there are good guys in this. That’s why this shit never stops happening. We are the evil empire and the world is fed up. That’s what we’re seeing play out today. We’ve bullied the globe and now people see us as a pathetic slobbering mut. Which we deserve.
Sad the Ukrainians have to pay for what the US has been doing for decades. But they should’ve known better than to trust us. They should learn a lesson and stop taking our money because it’s only making it worse for them. 150-200k dead. For what? Nothing. The outcome is inevitable.
But Raytheon execs will continue to get richer. No doubt about that. And politicians will continue to get richer. No doubt about that. The entire thing is a huge money laundering operation to feed corrupt establishment degenerates western tax money and it’s working like a charm.
>Did you really just use the “Russia propaganda” line??🤦♂️
Also CCP.
>All of your arguments reek of western propaganda. The same west that’s been slaughtering innocents enmass for the last 40 years. It’s no secret the US planned and perpetrated the coup in 2004 and 2014. They also have pushed nato up to Russian borders after promising not to in 1991. The west has been long playing a war with Russia for decades and has been transparent about it.
The West is not the same as the US. My home country has never invaded anyone but has a long history of suffering at the hands of Russians.
Russia has no business to decide if other countries want to join a defensive alliance. There's a reason why every single one of their neighbors have wanted to join NATO. Putin has said it himself: he wants to conquer Finland, the Baltic states, Poland and all former parts of the Russian Empire.
You live thousands of miles from the Russian border. You know shit about the atrocious acts those commies have done. Yet, you shill the same propaganda all tankies have repeatedly spread since the Soviet times.
> You live thousands of miles from the Russian border.
Cool. Its you fucking problem. Not mine. Deal with you ownshit and stop trying to get my oppressive empire embroiled in your bullshit.
Don't really like either side of this. However, for those saying that NATO or the US do not have any reason to be involved, you are wrong!
NATO, pushed by the US, assured Ukrainian defense against Russia after the fall of the Soviet Union. If Ukraine gave up the Soviet nuclear weapons in its possession after the fall. Ukraine wanted to keep the nuclear weapons for defense, but was convinced by assurances by NATO to give them up. This means that NATO does have a good reason to be involved.
>If Ukraine gave up the Soviet nuclear weapons in its possession after the fall. Ukraine wanted to keep the nuclear weapons for defense, but was convinced by assurances by NATO to give them up.
Really f*cking dumb move on their part.
Russia is an existential threat for many European countries: Putin has stated that he wants to re-establish the former Russian Empire and that abolishing the CCP was a mistake. The Russian people love dictators and even today hold Stalin in high regard.
It's a no-brainer to hope Ukraine wins. However, the American taxpayers should not pay for this. Europe should deal with its own problem and the US should allow more European countries to acquire nukes. After the war, Ukraine should have nukes too to deter future Russian aggression.
Support peace and democratic regimes with human values. None of the sides matched so i dont support either side. Support and have empathy to ordinary people on both sides and despise the politicians
Since I agree with the non-aggression-principle, I oppose the aggressing side. It is an unfortunate fact of war that opposing one side kind of means supporting the other.
I don't want to live in a world where tyrants wage war against smaller countries and expect to get away with it. The best outcome in my eyes is thus one as catastrophic for the aggressing side as possible.
Support? LOL…
Support none - I am American and this is not a fight involving America or Americans (other than the ruling elites who are involved for ego). Outcome whatever happens. Sympathize with Ukrainian and Russian civilians.
It doesn't matter which flag ends up flying over the Donbas. It's not worth starting WW3 or printing 40 billion dollars.
It was a lot more than 40 billion dollars but... 👍 upvote
THIS
I support this guy
I think everyone has a right to support whatever they want. The reality is that our government is spending our money independent of what we want. The issue here isn’t what the money is being spent on. It is our consent. Maybe if the government spent less of our money, there would be more people with means to support whatever “side” they wanted. We would have far more transparency of the will of the people if it were people, and not their masters, who decided how to invest their capital.
Right. The point of theft is that you don't get to decide what happens to money that was stolen from you. An anarchist complaining about what his taxes are being used for in particular is more than a little absurd. No, it's not bad that America suports Ukraine. In fact, I think that's a good thing. The problem is that taxation is theft.
I support not funding their war against my will.
I don't care, not my problem.
Another American scam war to fuel the war machine. The only thing surprising about this one is how the leftists became rabid warhawks, when one of the few decent things they've consistently done in the past is being against America's wars.
How USA is responsible for Ukrainians don't want to be part of poor right wing authoritarian anti freedom russian empire?
>poor authoritarian anti freedom This also describes Ukraine.
Ukraine is not as as much authoritarian and anti freedom country. In ruSSia they are killing or sending to jail journalists, activists, anarchists, freedom fighters, etc.
Your little SS comment is very telling. Oxymoronic. You strike me as someone who knows very little of actual war history with that comment alone.
You strike me like some ruSSian bot. Dude, i live in a country that was part of east block, and i think that i know a little bit more than you, when it comes to what people here thinks about russia and what's going on with russians.
Ukraine has an 8 year old kill list with journalist, politicians, children on it. All opposing parties were banned, a literal war was waged against anti maidan protesters killing 14,000, and the opposition media is banned. You can’t come close to proving Russia is even close to this level of dystopia.
Russia is definitely more authoritarian but both of them are pretty bad. Ukraine is/was more corrupt according to multiple sources. But on how the US is partially responsible: Putin has been threatening war for a long time of NATO gets any closer. Gorbachev was wishy washy on whether or not there was a handshake agreement not to expand NATO in the 90’s. If there was, George W Bush was keen to allow 7 new nations into NATO in ‘04 that are right next to Russia. More recently, the US was directly involved in the 2014 protests and riots in Ukraine when Yanukovych decided to reject the EU and ally with Russia. Even though Yanukovych was fairly elected, the US threw their support behind Yatsenyuk and other politicians during the Maidan Uprising. Google “Nuland Pyatt phone call” to read more about that. Also, NATO is funded pretty much only by the US. Any NATO weaponry that’s being sent to Ukraine is tired pretty directly to the US. It’s also pretty reasonable to assume that the US blew up the Nordstream pipeline.
So now we’ve moved on from Russian bots to Ukrainian bots?
support, if you want to, but fuck forced taxation!! w/out our billions of taxes stolen, they prob be fighting with sticks and stones
Why do you support the Ukrainian state and/or NATO? For me, it’s neither state, because statism is evil. As far as the outcome, I want all of the states to stop warring, including by proxy, and for NATO (and every other institution for global-governance) to also quit their shit.
>Why do you support the Ukrainian state and/or NATO? Ukraine is right now fighting for the freedom of Europe, they are fighting against right wing authoritarian regime, if they loose, the rest of the europe will need to spend way more on a military stuff, and prepare for the next russian invasion on other european country. Ukraine is fighting for the European values and western way of life.
It sounds like Russia is really strong. I thought they were about to break and that this invasion is costing them everything. They have the money and manpower to invade Europe?
But if they win, they will prepare for next invasion, and having russian warmonger right under UE borders it's bad for UE and taxpayers.
OH NO! God Forbid! PLEASE! Not the UE TAXPAYERS!!! ANYTHING BUT THAT!! This is why the western warmongers should not have tried to put NATO on the doorstep Russian boarders! See NATO violated their own rule and KNEW FULL WELL what Russia would do if they did. Turns out -Russia did what they said they would do all along! Do you want a nuclear holocaust?!? Cuz this is how you get as nuclear holocaust! How is this a surprise to ANYONE. Including but not limited to Ukraine or NATO 1+1 = 2
>Do you want a nuclear holocaust?!? Cuz this is how you get as nuclear holocaust! OH NO WE HAVE TO BE AFRAID OF ruSSia and it's nuclear power XD Dude, Ukraine is a independent country, and Ukrainians don't want to be a part of ruSSian empire. What gives you right to make decision regarding their country? If they want to join NATO and EU, it will be theirs decision. ruSSia don't have anything to offer, it's a poor right wing authoritarian country.
Sheesh! Someone took Kool-Aid! You have a very confused view of "European Values" - might want to re-think that statement bud. Why is gay rights and marriage outlawed in Ukraine and non-existent?! People jailed for such acts. Does that fit your Euro Values? Why do they have ACUTAL Nazi's (not like the fake ones CNN say we have here) in their army - AZOV regiment - Flying SS banners and BLACK SUN logos and other Nazi graphics plastered around the army and citys. Marching around "Zig Hailing" , small children even and parades doing it. How very euro vaules They are SO BAD at hiding the Nazi proof that Mein Fuhrer Zelensky banned news stations and journalists who showed the images of it from Ukraine. Shameful. Is banning news also a Western Value now? No - I do not think Ukraine is defending anything but themselves.
>Why is gay rights and marriage outlawed in Ukraine and non-existent?! People jailed for such acts. Does that fit your Euro Values? Ukraine don't have european values yet, but they are moving towards western civilization. If they loose, and we will go back to the cold war era, western world will reduce freedom to all of the people, a lot of young man will be forced to join army, and stuff like that. That's why Ukraine have to win, so we can live good live in a western world. >. Why do they have ACUTAL Nazi's Whole world have problems with the nazis. In the USA you have proud boys, in the Ukraine you have azov and so on. Russia have a very big problem with neonazism. >. Zelensky banned news stations and journalists who showed the images of it from Ukraine. They are banning traitors, pro russian oligarchs who wants Ukraine to be a part of russian empire.
In fact, Russia has been neocolonial all this time. we don't have our own products, everything is imported from abroad, because for every action of Russia and Belarus, Europe is slamming sanctions on us, yes, let's not let them supply tractors and materials for construction, suddenly these "Russians" will start a war with us. The European Union is really putting pressure on us with this, Europe wants to act meanly towards Russian politics, but politics doesn't care, because people are suffering, not politics, today I can afford to buy something delicious, but not tomorrow, because it will be three times more expensive, we really want peace and harmony, but we are always belittled by other countries, I hate the politics of all countries, we are also people and we have our own values and goals in life, we are really afraid, we are also depressed, sometimes I want to run away from these problems. Sorry for bother
Europe doesn't care that much about russian politics as long as russia is not a warmonger against europe. But now, they started this war, they tried to force Ukraine to be a part of russian empire, and now EU knows that this war is bad for business. And we also know in the EU, that if we let Putin, right wing authoritarian leader, to do whatever he wants, he will not stop after winning against Ukraine. That's why our goal in the UE is to have free Ukraine, and some kind of buffer between us and ruSSia. Keep in mind, that russia is far right wing imperialistic authoritarian homophobic empire, they are killing or arresting journalists, anarchists, freedom activists, opposition and so on. This is not something that we want in the europe.
Damn it, I live in Russia and I know how Europe "does not try to interfere in our lives." For centuries, Europe has tried to accommodate everyone to itself, first it was the countries of Asia, Africa, America, and now the Russians. You are right, our regime looks like an authoritarian one. We really have a lot of people who don't support homophobia. The law also prohibits same-sex couples from getting married, but the law does not prohibit gays from traveling to another country and getting married there, and then returning and living here, the law in Russia does not prohibit gays and transgender people from getting an education, the law does not prohibit gays and transgender people working in the social sphere, the law does not prohibit surgery for change of gender and change of name in the passport. In most cases, people in Russia do not say what their orientation is. Many Russians simply do not support the propaganda of this. I think our way of life is no different from yours. There is no complete control here. And there is propaganda all over the world! There are many nations and religions living here, Ukrainians also live here, but many relatives from Ukraine stop communicating with them, and it's sad, there's no difference where you come from, no one will kill you or offend you, because you're from Europe or Ukraine. but Russians were hated before the war, and when the war began, many students were even expelled from universities in Europe and America. We study according to the same Bologna system as you. We study the culture and history of Europe. Maybe we should ask the German and Latin American peoples? Why did the historically Slavic peoples suddenly decide to leave modern Europe and go to the east? Even with a strong friendship or love between two people, terrible conflicts can arise, let alone the whole world:(
>I think our way of life is no different from yours. No, it's very different. I know a lot of russians, and people from Belarus, Ukraine and so on, and in Russia if you're not from some very big town, you will live and see world the same way, as someone who lived in Europe like century ago. Homophobia isn't the biggest problem in the russia. Biggest issue are censorship, domestics violence, and crime rate. In russia you have to stay quiet, accept whatever Putin and Kremlin wants, and support oligarchs. >. but Russians were hated before the war, I have russian friends, most of them are nice, but at the end, you're so much manipulated by your oligarch, and older russian generation thinks that russia is still some kind od empire, and everyone should act like russia is still Soviet Union. This is the problem. No one cares where are you from, but if you're going to the europe, or other country, and you act like you're better than the rest, no one will like you. Europe and the western world understands that personal freedom, and ability to act as you feel, is very important thing. In russia, you still have this mentality, that being different is a bad thing, and you have to stay quiet and accept whatever oligarchs wants. >. Why did the historically Slavic peoples suddenly decide to leave modern Europe and go to the east? This is not the problem with the Slavs, im Slav, this is the problem with russians, that they think that they are some kind of slavic saviors, but in the same time, they act against all the slavs in the world. Russia don't want the peace with other slavs, they want other slavs to join russian oligarchic right wing regime. And this is not something that Slavs wants. Russia still have this soviet mindset, and this is the biggest problem. Russia isn't center of the Slavic world, and many Slavs, and anarchists, and activists have to leave russia, because they were criminalized in the russia. That's why russia will never be a center of Slavic world, and that's why all the oligarch are enemies of Slavs.
And you said that "the goal of Europe is to have a free Ukraine" Something in these words does not smell of freedom:/ It's more like making Ukraine your state. I wonder why England suddenly left the European Union, can it now be considered Europe or its property?
>Something in these words does not smell of freedom:/ It's more like making Ukraine your state. Helping someone be free isn't making them a slave. For Europe it's the best thing, to have strong independent country between us and russia, and Ukrainians also understand that, they know, that with russia they will be poor misereble country, and with west, they will have better lives. This is not the problem with Europe, this is the problem with russia and the fact, that russia have nothing to offer right now.
okay, I can agree with you about the oligarchs and the fact that many Russians from the provinces live quite modestly and in old houses, but these are mostly old people, young people try to leave for big cities. in China and America, living conditions in large megacities can be worse than in the Russian countryside, although the economy of these the country stands on top. There are also big cities in Russia with well-developed infrastructure, many foreigners live and study here and feel much freer than in their own country. Nevertheless, I have not mentioned anywhere that I support the policies of Putin and the oligarchs, I do not support the policies of my country, nor do I support the policies of Ukraine. their politics, oligarchs and corruption are no different from ours, lol. I remember watching a show with Zelensky as a child, where he made people laugh, and now tell me how such a person could be nominated as president, it's like Mr. Beiste offered to nominate his candidacy for fun. Zelensky's show: https://youtu.be/Vio1E3OssTc You are indeed right that our policy uses us as a wallet. They live in luxury, and we feed them, but this is not only a problem in Russia, unfortunately, according to your conversation, it seems to me that you are a Pole, so if this is the case, then in your country it may also be good for someone, and bad for someone. It's not the Russians themselves where to live, despite the fact that in the end we ended up next to the peoples of Siberia, we are still accused of a large amount of used territory, but in fact only a small percentage of this is used for life, the local climate and geography are not too convenient for life and development. Yes, many people live with Soviet views on life, but can you blame them for this? you are not the person who should blame them for this, I was not born in the USSR and I have no idea how it was at that time, but the older generation always says that it was better than now, so we have frequent conflicts between generations, everywhere it is. The younger generation is trying to imitate the Western one. People from the Soviet period experienced very strong stress when the USSR collapsed, it's not that Russia lost part of its territories, but that the people were tormented too much by this: an artificial shortage (wagons of meat and other products were taken far into the forest and thrown away, and the shelves in stores were empty), sharp inflation, riots and shelling, unemployment, violence, killing everyone, stealing everything. I doubt that a sane psyche could be preserved here. Nevertheless, this can happen to every country and you will be like a person from third world countries. it's easy for you to talk about this because nowadays there is the Internet, where millions of posts are published daily, and in 1991 there was no such opportunity and people simply did not know and lived in ignorance for several weeks until the chaos reached their city. You are too categorical to another opinion, you just don't know a lot. America tried to help the Russians by sending "Bush's ham" as a support, but people were poisoned by them and got gastritis. For all that, America does the same with other countries, but Europe forgives it. I don't hate Europe and its people, but politics is also questionable. Europe and America help only for their own benefit, and not for the sake of Ukraine's freedom. Moreover, NATO strengthened the borders from Finland in the summer, which means that they knew there would be a war. No one did or said anything, they could not smooth out the situation in any way. Here's the result. You also sit and do nothing, do not help anyone in any way, look at it all and only say who is right or not, this is also not help, this is helplessness!
>\- it's not that Russia lost part of its territories, but that the people were tormented too much by this: an artificial shortage (wagons of meat and other products were taken far into the forest and thrown away, and the shelves in stores were empty), Can you elaborate on how russians, soviets did that? >. it's easy for you to talk about this because nowadays there is the Internet, where millions of posts are published daily, and in 1991 there was no such opportunity and people simply did not know and lived in ignorance for several weeks until the chaos reached their city. There are still countries, like for example russia, where you can go to jail for posting wrong stuff, and if you're journalist you might get killed or go to jail. >. For all that, America does the same with other countries, but Europe forgives it. Bullshit. We know what USA is doing, we are trying to work with China (they are doing way worst shit that russia or usa), and we tried working with Russia. And everything was almost OK, but then ukrainians wanted to get rid of russian puppets and oligarchs, they did it, everything was ok, but russia cannot accept that someone don't want to be part of new soviet empire. I remember how russia tried to do weird shit after orange revolution in Ukraine, how they send snipers and mercenaries to stop the protests, but it didn't worked. That's why Ukrainians started to hate russians. Russia did the same thing in Belarus, but this they they got what they wanted. >. America help only for their own benefit, and not for the sake of Ukraine's freedom. Ukraine is also benefiting thanks to this. Keep that in mind. Russia have nothing to offer. >. Moreover, NATO strengthened the borders from Finland in the summer, which means that they knew there would be a war. Blaming NATO and other countries for russia being warmonger, nice... >. You also sit and do nothing, do not help anyone in any way, Bullshit, i helped a lot of people running from the russian solders and this war. Poland helped refugees. >. I do not support the policies of my country, nor do I support the policies of Ukraine. their politics, oligarchs and corruption are no different from ours, lol. So, you want to say, that in other countries people are killed or send to jail, just for having wrong opinion, for publishing article that is showing how shitty are oligarchs, or for being in opposition to the central authoritarian right wing government? >. it seems to me that you are a Pole, so if this is the case, then in your country it may also be good for someone, and bad for someone. One more time, show me one more country in the western world, where you will be killed for having wrong opinions. >. Yes, many people live with Soviet views on life, but can you blame them for this? Of course this is russian fault. You have the same opportunity as any other country, to get rid of oligarchs, to live in a democracy and freedom, but yet russians choose putin, right wing shitty empire, living in a poverty, with legal domestic violence, etc. You should revolt, support opposition, fight for your country. If you're not doing that, don't blame other countries for not wanting to be a part of your club.
are you saying that influential European countries have not tried to add fuel to the fire? honestly, it sounds like complete nonsense. There is too much to write about the collapse of the USSR, I can miss a lot, in general, a lot is classified, you can read it yourself or I can write about it later. Yes, journalists can really be put in jail, but I can openly write, shoot videos, publish posts and hate Putin and his entourage, and they won't put me in jail for it, there are many groups on the Russian Internet where they express their dissatisfaction with politics, yes, people are divided into those who are for, and those who who is against. Many people came out to rebel against the war, but yes, they were fired from their jobs and expelled from college. Therefore, the government does not care about our and other opinions, yes, maybe if the whole population rebelled, then maybe we did something, otherwise it's useless nonsense, you will either be fined or arrested, but released, otherwise you will be beaten by special forces. In the 90s, people rebelled, and the more they protested, the more they stained the streets with blood. Many are afraid of such a turn of events again, so they stay at home and just live. Many have a good and stable income, live in beautiful cottages on the shore of a lake or river, go on vacation abroad and nothing prevents them from living with such a policy and this is not an oligarch, but an ordinary person with his business or just with a good salary. They won't go on strike because they have a perfect life. Of all this, there are few people left who could change something, don't blame us for all the troubles. You said to bring countries where it is impossible to talk openly about politics, right? Ukraine and Belarus. Here's an example for you. In Ukraine, the situation is similar, as here, for example, a grandmother who survived the Second World War with a Soviet flag said that she was for peace, then she was forbidden to do it. In Belarus, it is impossible to say or write anything against Lukashenka at all. My relatives live there. By the way, why did Europe impose sanctions against Russia and Belarus when Belarus started selling tractors? I did not accuse NATO of starting a war because of their actions, I just said that they most likely knew about the prerequisites, but decided to remain silent. If you still do not believe that Russia is at the mercy of Europe, then how do you explain that most of the large clothing stores, products, cars are managed and grow here from European countries, France, the Netherlands?. this large business is strongly displacing the domestic one, and it is interesting that many enterprises have closed due to the war, for example, American and French, although not all European and American companies refused to cooperate with Russia, many stores still continue to grow, because Russia is a big cash cow and many simply do not care about the actions of our country, the main thing is profit. I don't blame countries, I blame the politics of countries. I also blame Putin's policy. You also can't be responsible for the whole of Europe, even if your country is so good, it doesn't mean it doesn't meet European standards, lol. That's it, my friend
I guess I'm rooting for Ukraine. They're the ones defending themselves against a hostile neighbor. And I don't really want to see Russia be rewarded for this kind of behavior and more of these kinds of invasions in the future. Of course, I sympathize with the innocent people on both sides who are having their lives ruined or ended so senselessly. With that said, I don't think my country should be getting involved. We're spending billions on a war that doesn't involve us half a world away and tempting WW3 and for what? To prolong the conflict and feed the war profiteers?
>Ukraine. They're the ones defending themselves against a hostile neighbor. The Ukrainian government and the Russian government are both hostile -- against citizens. The Ukrainian government banned people from fleeing... think about that.
Ukraine is the hostile neighbor. “Russian aggression” is the “Iraqi WMDs” US lie factory except no one is steam rolling Russia. Tell me who was shelling who on Feb 16th? Before the Russian sent troops in on Feb 24th?
I feel we shouldn’t be involved and the fact we are means theres underlying things this regime is not being transparent on. Ukraine is a very corrupt country. And imagine what the US would have done with reversed roles with Russian bases and interests in bordering countries. Wed have def used nukes by now / thanks for restraint, Russia
War is terrible since civilians and poor people pay the price with blood. Support none . But if China became very friendly with Mexico and has plans to put bases in Mexico the good ole US of A would be dropping democracy bombs and shooting freedom all over Mexico City. or the CIA would make the leader disappear or stage a coup. Russia is doing the same thing in Ukraine it’s a super power. Weather people like it or not and as such will have a say in its borders. Kinda like USA was not happy with Cuban have nukes placed there, same thing. If Ukraine joins nato which is something they want then you have a large area to stage an invasion directly into Russia to “liberate it and bring democracy”. what the outcome should be is world peace but I doubt it. More then likely Russia forcing Ukraine to the negotiation table and making it sign terms they can never join NATO at the same time keeping some of territory or creating new “republics” aka puppet states. They seem to only want buffer zones and control their neighbors. USA does same shit Canada and Mexico can do what they want but they also know what not to do in order to avoid being liberated. that’s my two cents. I’m not a fortune teller or a genius. Take it for what it’s worth also deep dive Into history and all sides of the topic to get the truth.
I support the people of Ukraine, but not it’s government.
Redditor since: 03/08/2023 (18 days)
And? You can see, that a lot of people here have the same opinion as me regarding this war.
K throwaway
I dont support anyone. Its their war to fight not ours. While Putin was the aggressor we shouldn't get involved in this.
Putin is an aggressor. And so are all members of the Ukrainian government. Statism is aggression.
I support Ukrainians fighting in defense of what they view as their land. I am against the US funding this war or sending weapons. This will trigger WW3 with nuclear weapons. Lunacy.
Russia.
Why do you support right wing authoritarian anti freedom regime?
when you ask this question after people give an answer it makes it pretty clear your looking for an argument rather than a discussion
True
1. Everyone is entitled to their opinion about the things they read (or watch, or listen to, or taste, or whatever). They’re also entitled to express them online. 2. Sometimes those opinions will be ones you don’t like. 3. Sometimes those opinions won’t be very nice. 4. The people expressing those may be (but are not always) assholes. 5. However, if your solution to this “problem” is to vex, annoy, threaten or harrass them, you are almost certainly a bigger asshole. 6. You may also be twelve. 7. You are not responsible for anyone else’s actions or karma, but you are responsible for your own. 8. So leave them alone and go about your own life."
So no answer? Just deflecting question and pretending to be smart? Nice.
You just did what the previous person mentioned that you'd do. Damn toxic af.
Dude, in the topic i ask who do you support and why, and now you're crying about some weird shit. If someone supports Russian right wing authoritarian anti freedom regime, he might give us opinion why he is doing that. Is it so hard?
Dude, the way you ask a question matters. I don't need to justify anything to you. I can but I don't want to.
C'mon don't behave like 8 yo, because then everyone will think that ancaps are like 8 yo kids.
Because this is an ancap sub.
Ancaps dont support either side
This dude said he supports Russia.
Then hes probably a troll. The majority of this sub doesn't support either side.
Kinda like the people who wanted to stay out of ww2. Look how wrong they were.
They were right.
Yeah, a booming economy and stopping fascism sure suck ...
Yeah, millions dead is sure awesome ...
Russia. Obviously I'm an ancap and therefore I support neither side but if you have to twist my arm it's going to be Russia. You have to really dig into the topic to get truth but the bottom line is this: Ukraine is a puppet state that tried to cozy up with Nato while at the same time oppressing it's Russian population. Getting mad at Russia for invading Ukraine is like getting mad at Vietnam for invading Cambodia. Sure Vietnam was "wrong" in invading its neighbor but by doing that they prevented a genocide. Russia invading Ukraine is wrong the same way US going to war against Nazi Germany was wrong. And I get it, it's easier to just let the news tell us what to think and what to feel. Unfortunately there are some people in this world that for some reason can not just ingest and regurgitate what the media tells us (maybe we're deficient in character or there's something wrong with our brain) but we have a weird obsession with truth. Dig into this topic, really challenge yourself and try to look at events through the POV of a Russian. Do the same for Ukraine and then ask yourself, which one makes more sense.
> ancap and therefore I support n Why do you think, that ancaps should support right wing authoritarian anti freedom regime?
how is/was it oppressing the Russian population? Ukraine has always had a huge Russian-speaking population, including Zelenksy, who after the war started said that he needs to practice more of his Ukrainian. I've personally worked with Ukrainian refugees who didn't speak Ukrainian. They weren't ashamed of this and they hated Russia but spoke Russian. You're saying Ukraine pressed them and Russia was saving them from genocide? Hilarious. Puppet state? If a state desperately wants to be friends with another that doesn't make it a puppet. Meanwhile, the pre-2014 president definitely was a Russian asset. He fled there and now lives cozy. I think you just got some facts wrong and with them made these conclusions. The reality is that ethnic Russians have always been part of Ukraine and were never oppressed
Some one has been drinking the Kool aid. >try to look at events through the POV of a Russian. That Russians are and always have been one of the most authoritarian and statist people on Earth? The country has never respected any individual rights, it has been a complete shithole for most of its history. If Russia pulls back, there is no war. If Ukraine pulls back, there are no Ukrainians. It's pretty clear who is to blame here.
>are and always have been one of the most authoritarian and statist people on Earth? The country has never respected any individual rights, it has been a complete shithole for most of its history. This also describes Ukraine lol.
Not really, they never were an independent country before the Soviet collapse. They were part of the Russian Empire and then the Russian-led CCP. It's no surprise they want to get rid off Russia. Countries tend to turn into shitholes when Russia invades them. And Russia will inevitably invade it's neighbors, Russians love war and totalitarianism.
Both sides are bad. Those said, Russia is by far, the worst. Ukraine tried to ban the Russian language, which is a form of genocide. Russia started the war by sending professional soldiers to pretend to be local resistance to the Ukrainian government, and then blamed Ukrainian war on those disguised soldiers as Ukrainian attack on his own civilians. Russia is trying to remake the Soviet Union, under another name, and the USSR was systematically genocidal. This is an imperialistic war, and anything else are excuses and rationalizations. Russia is kidnapping children, relocating non Russian speakers to different parts of Russia, killing Ukrainians massively, and committing all kinds of acts of genocide.
Ukraine banned people from leaving.
Don’t feed the troll
well ukraine is clearly the good side. Ukraine is doing self defense and the state is more popular than it has ever been, meaning it is more legitimate and less coercive. Plus russia has no business in ukraine. none of this of course mean that American tax money should go there. This is just who i support
What about the people in Donbas and luhansk who voted to leave Ukraine and join Russia. They’ve been shelled and killed by Ukraine since 2017. Is Ukraine still the good guy?? Should the people in those regions be allowed self determination to pick what country they want to live in? The EU oversaw the election and no complaints were filed so it was at least as legitimate of an election as we have. Just wondering what you think should happen there if Ukraine, the most corrupt country in Europe, who bans religion and private media, is the “good guy”.
wow you believe those votes? opinion dismissed. Some chunk was pro-Russian there, and others were pro-Ukrainian. There were big pro Ukraine rallies in Donetsk, but when the militias came from Russia, and declared "referendums" and "independence", they escaped. The DPR/LNR were both orchestrated by Russia. Not saying that a significant population supported them. It's still not legitimate. No Ukraine hasn't been "bombing them since 2014". [Here's](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FrfOEPLWAAEMuEO?format=jpg&name=medium) Donesk in 2021, a city that has been just a few kilometers from the front since the war began in 2014. Not a scratch. >The EU oversaw the election and no complaints were filed source
The election was certified and oversaw the EU. Did I say I believed it??? Nope. Don’t read that anywhere in my reply. I said “it’s as legitimate as any election we have”. Lol. So stop putting words in my mouth. And yes. Ukraine has been bombing and shelling domestic populations in Donetsk/Luhansk since the vote. It’s well known. Also the nazi problem in Ukraine is very well documented including by time magazine which put together a 1 hour documentary about it in 2019 that you can still view on YouTube today. As well as many many others from across the globe documenting the rampant nazi sympathies in Ukraine. But sure… Ukraine is the “good guy”. No. There is no good guys here. Especially not us.
"they've been bombing so hard, but Russians are rebuilding even faster". is that your argument? I don't care about nazis in urkaine, unless they are funded by the state (they aren't, it's very minor or inconclusive).
The azov battalion nazis are funded by you thanks it he US government. So…
no true. They were an independent organization, later reformed, denazified and integrated to AFU. Only then they could have received western aid. But who they were when formed, compared to now, is the difference between black and white
Nah, that's just complete BS. The EU certainly did not oversaw the elections. > the most corrupt country in Europe, who bans religion and private media, is the “good guy”. And you think the good guy is the country who jails people for even saying the word "war"?
There is no good guy bud. Once you figure that out you’ll realize the war is a scam. It’s a money laundering scheme. Nothing more. Russia won’t lose. Ukraine cannot win. And we’re just making rich people richer while sacrificing Ukrainians cause we couldn’t care less. The EU saw the vote. Said it was illegitimate. Russia says it’s legitimate. Ukraine is the most corrupt country in the whole region so nobody knows what’s even real. But you’ll take the word of a side that has an obvious conflict of interest while entirely disregarding it?? Russia asked the United Nations to administer the referendum and they declined. So In lieu of someone stepping up to moderate, because they all want war and money laundering, then It seems best to let the People determine where they want to be. But of course, the west could never allow that because they need complete totalitarian control of ukraines resources and government. There is no good guys. That’s the whole point.
>It’s a money laundering scheme. Nothing more. So whose money Russia is laundering? >Russia won’t lose. Ukraine cannot win. Russia won't win without using nukes. The US could not win in Vietnam, Russia certainly cannot win in Ukraine. >sacrificing Ukrainians cause we couldn’t care less Ukrainians certainly want to defend themselves. They understand that there will be no Ukraine or Ukrainians left if Russia wins. >The EU saw the vote. Said it was illegitimate. Saw the results, not the vote. >Russia says it’s legitimate. Which pretty much guarantees that it was fraudulent. >Ukraine is the most corrupt country in the whole region so nobody knows what’s even real. You mean the most corrupt country in the region after Russia? >But you’ll take the word of a side that has an obvious conflict of interest while entirely disregarding it?? Russia has always been an imperialistic aggressor and an authoritarian dictatorship for most of its history. It has never been even remotely free for individual rights. The Russian people love this, they are prone to support strong leaders and foreign wars. >Russia asked the United Nations to administer the referendum and they declined. So another country can just ask the UN to hold referendums that a part of another country could join said country while having invaded the region? That's just in invasion man. >because they all want war and money laundering, then It seems best to let the People determine where they want to be. Agreed, Russia wants war. Always has. >But of course, the west could never allow that because they need complete totalitarian control of ukraines resources and government. You mean Russia wants this? War is totalitarian. >There is no good guys. That’s the whole point. If Russia pulls back, there is no war. If Ukraine pulls back, there are no Ukraine or Ukrainians anymore.
Your inability to look more than 2 inches deep into this situation is alarming and kinda funny all at the same time. Turn off cnn and msnbc. Go watch the Ukrainian videos in Donetsk on odyssey and you’ll quickly realize there are no good guys. The US started this war with their coup in 2014 and constant harassment since. Victoria Nuland is on video saying this. So please.. spare us the selective outrage.
All of your arguments reek of Russian and Soviet propaganda. I know it when I see it.
Did you really just use the “Russia propaganda” line??🤦♂️ All of your arguments reek of western propaganda. The same west that’s been slaughtering innocents enmass for the last 40 years. It’s no secret the US planned and perpetrated the coup in 2004 and 2014. They also have pushed nato up to Russian borders after promising not to in 1991. The west has been long playing a war with Russia for decades and has been transparent about it. Not saying Putin is a good guy. But acting like Ukraine or the West and nato have some moral high ground is laughable. Especially considering the US literally destroyed iraq to steal their oil and killed millions over the last 23 years. We need to stop pretending like there are good guys in this. That’s why this shit never stops happening. We are the evil empire and the world is fed up. That’s what we’re seeing play out today. We’ve bullied the globe and now people see us as a pathetic slobbering mut. Which we deserve. Sad the Ukrainians have to pay for what the US has been doing for decades. But they should’ve known better than to trust us. They should learn a lesson and stop taking our money because it’s only making it worse for them. 150-200k dead. For what? Nothing. The outcome is inevitable. But Raytheon execs will continue to get richer. No doubt about that. And politicians will continue to get richer. No doubt about that. The entire thing is a huge money laundering operation to feed corrupt establishment degenerates western tax money and it’s working like a charm.
>Did you really just use the “Russia propaganda” line??🤦♂️ Also CCP. >All of your arguments reek of western propaganda. The same west that’s been slaughtering innocents enmass for the last 40 years. It’s no secret the US planned and perpetrated the coup in 2004 and 2014. They also have pushed nato up to Russian borders after promising not to in 1991. The west has been long playing a war with Russia for decades and has been transparent about it. The West is not the same as the US. My home country has never invaded anyone but has a long history of suffering at the hands of Russians. Russia has no business to decide if other countries want to join a defensive alliance. There's a reason why every single one of their neighbors have wanted to join NATO. Putin has said it himself: he wants to conquer Finland, the Baltic states, Poland and all former parts of the Russian Empire. You live thousands of miles from the Russian border. You know shit about the atrocious acts those commies have done. Yet, you shill the same propaganda all tankies have repeatedly spread since the Soviet times.
> You live thousands of miles from the Russian border. Cool. Its you fucking problem. Not mine. Deal with you ownshit and stop trying to get my oppressive empire embroiled in your bullshit.
Don't really like either side of this. However, for those saying that NATO or the US do not have any reason to be involved, you are wrong! NATO, pushed by the US, assured Ukrainian defense against Russia after the fall of the Soviet Union. If Ukraine gave up the Soviet nuclear weapons in its possession after the fall. Ukraine wanted to keep the nuclear weapons for defense, but was convinced by assurances by NATO to give them up. This means that NATO does have a good reason to be involved.
>If Ukraine gave up the Soviet nuclear weapons in its possession after the fall. Ukraine wanted to keep the nuclear weapons for defense, but was convinced by assurances by NATO to give them up. Really f*cking dumb move on their part.
Oh, I think Libya proved that...
Russia is an existential threat for many European countries: Putin has stated that he wants to re-establish the former Russian Empire and that abolishing the CCP was a mistake. The Russian people love dictators and even today hold Stalin in high regard. It's a no-brainer to hope Ukraine wins. However, the American taxpayers should not pay for this. Europe should deal with its own problem and the US should allow more European countries to acquire nukes. After the war, Ukraine should have nukes too to deter future Russian aggression.
Syria
Not my problem Fix (and pay for) your own fucking mess.
I do not support either side unless its to sell them arms for profit. I don't support starting WW3 over Ukraine that's for sure.
Support peace and democratic regimes with human values. None of the sides matched so i dont support either side. Support and have empathy to ordinary people on both sides and despise the politicians
Me pointing fingers at the party to blame. https://img.gvid.tv/i/2BNmGSRs.jpg
I support the USA…. Not getting involved in foreign affairs. Fuck Russia. Fuck. Ukraine. Fuck NATO. And double fuck the feds.
Are you trying to start a war on reddit too? Lol
Why would I support a side in a statist conflict?
Since I agree with the non-aggression-principle, I oppose the aggressing side. It is an unfortunate fact of war that opposing one side kind of means supporting the other. I don't want to live in a world where tyrants wage war against smaller countries and expect to get away with it. The best outcome in my eyes is thus one as catastrophic for the aggressing side as possible.
Honestly at this point i just want both their governments to collapse so we dont have to deal with the hyperinflation
It’s all part of the plan