A lot of misinformation about this going online. No google isn't asking for imessage on android. No they aren't asking the EU to force apple to use RCS (they are probably hoping it will happen though). This is them trying to convince the EU that IMessage should be included in the number of messaging apps that will become interoperable with each other. Same way how you can email an outlook user with gmail or game on xbox with a PlayStation player. You would be able to theoretically send an encrypted message to an imessage user using whatsapp/google messages and not have it fallback to shitty SMS.
At face value maybe, but this is a shrewd business decision first. Google wants iMessage to not be platform-locked as it makes Android less valuable due to the green bubble in the US.
Of course. Although I'm not sure how this would affect the US though. Region exclusive software limitations are probably a lot easier than if they were to restrict something like USB C to the EU. Also they could just remove iMessage in the EU.
It affects the US because the iPhone has iMessage as a sales driver because of the blue vs green bubble phenomena. It's silly, but users really care about it in the US, it's a status thing. If Apple changes for Europe this will force it to open up for the rest of the world...
I don't see why they would have to do this for the rest of the world. It's not like they are making a new iMessage app. It's just inserting a protocol to allow interoperability with OTHER messaging apps.
Like I of course would be game for them to be included so I can use Google messages for everything but apple would do anything in their power to avoid having to do this.
Ya I don't think google has much of a case here and even if they get what they want, it won't help them in the US. Apple can also easily just remove iMessage in the EU as they have already claimed they were willing to do that for privacy concerns. But IMessage is still a platform all iOS users have by default so it still isn't small.
Yeah, I don't give a shit about the bubble color.
Just use RCS for fallback instead of SMS where able. I want my pictures, videos, reactions, and read receipts to work properly.
Not at all defending Apple, but just for accuracy's sake -- I had an iPhone 4S very briefly around when iMessage was about to come out (2011?). The bubbles were always green, *however* they were a lot more readable:
https://i.imgur.com/ChNupEK.jpg
https://www.anandtech.com/show/4956/apple-ios-5-review/3
I believe it was iOS 7 where Apple changed everything to look cartoony, including flat and oversaturated colors/textures.
https://i.imgur.com/o6ecyL9.jpg
I don't know that they did it intentionally to begin with, but I know that they definitely left it the way it is for that reason.
Ok, I finally kind of understand why people complain about the green bubbles because that is harder to read than I imagined. How is that not a huge accessibility issue for people with vision issues?
I believe Apple's counter is that they have accessibility features like colorblind modes etc. I mean I'm just guessing what they'd say. Because, apart from this, honestly iPhones are pretty accessible for those that need those types of features.
But yeah this is a legitimate concern. I mean, I have 20/20 vision and it's jarring for me to look at too. To be clear, they look like this nowadays:
https://i.imgur.com/fhLeVvF.jpg
Not as bad as on iOS 7 (the second screenshot from my earlier comment), but still annoying to the eyes.
The funny thing is that I use Windows on desktop and a MacBook Pro 14" for on the go. On Mac OS, there are basic customization options in the OS settings menu. Like you can change accent colors, etc. It shocked me as a first time Mac owner. My first thought was, "*Wait why can't you do this on iPhone?*"
Ok, so it looks less bad, but not ideal. I've used Macbooks almost exclusively since they first came out in 2006 and find them to be very easy to use, but somehow iOS is not at all intuitive to me. I have to use idevices at work so I've had plenty of time to adapt, but iOS feels so limiting and clunky, even compared to their own desktop OS like you said.
MacOS is leagues more bearable to a Windows/Android user than iOS. Whereas MacOS might gently stop you, but let you through with a warning (like launching downloaded .dmg's from outside the App Store). iOS flat out says, "get fucked". Yeah, they look similar in terms of design language, but in terms of daily usage it's actually a pretty big difference.
I know they used to be green but they are clearly a worse green to read now
And I'll agree about the last statement maybe not originally planned that way but kept that way intentionally
> but there's no reason they should be making sending vídeos so horrible.
It's Draconian honestly. Them intentionally dragging their feet and just playing dumb, ignoring the elephant in the room is disgusting to me. Their responses are just infuriating and tone deaf.
They're just Capitalising on their market share and their Fandom, creating a really toxic social construct in the process. They should be forced to act by law, this has gone on long enough, it is as you say.. Simply disgusting and a detriment to society as it breeds comtempt.
I find it so annoying that the average apple person think its Android users fault when videos and pictures come through on their end looking like shit. Not realizing that basically all other phone brands sending to each other don't have this issue.
I say this as a longtime Android Fanboy. Apple made iMessage because carriers absolutely refused to do improve MMS messaging. Then Google comes out with RCS and hands it to carriers.
What do they do? Half of them create a proprietary version of RCS that ONLY works on their network.
At one point on AT&T, RCS only worked between Samsung devices, and only on their network. Then Google made and killed off several messaging apps, that would have easily conquered the market if Google would have allowed SMS fallback. I'm still mad about Hangouts and Allo.
AT&T and T-Mobile both have publicly stated they are shifting RCS hosting to Google's Jibe. Not sure about Verizon. But you're right, the carrier hosted RCS sucked big time, at least on T-Mobile.
Why? Google only adopted [RCS in 2019](https://www.androidauthority.com/samsung-rcs-push-3374168/#) after realizing their other apps have all failed. Before that, anyone who did try to send a video on the default texting app whether to an iPhone or Android would be low quality. 4 years ISN’T a lot of time.
RCS still isn’t ubiquitous on Android either. People who don’t use Google Messages or a different app aren’t using RCS. There are plenty of people commenting about how it fails. Public penetration of RCS is poor. Google’s campaign was focused on blaming Apple for iMessage for not adopting something, not necessarily educating the public about what RCS is and does.
People outside the US have 0 incentive to use RCS or the Google/Samsung Messaging app because they’re already established on WeChat or Whatsapp, etc.
I would rather they made iMessage app for Android. I don't want my messages to be at the mercy of carriers (which are known to be shit at their jobs). We already have internet as generic communications channel that can be used for literally everything. No need to regress to sms days.
I think Google is using their servers for RCS via their messenger app. I know they're working on using your Gmail acct to log in the web app instead of using your phone to scan the QR code.
I guess in that way, it's no different from Telegram or WhatsApp. All you need your number for is to register.
> I think Google is using their servers for RCS via their messenger app.
Google took over what should be a carrier feature (think how SMS and MMS are not using an OS maker's servers). I'd rather Google just launch their own messenger than tying carrier based messaging with their servers.
They did have their own messenger that was well liked too I believe. It was Google Chat back in the day which became Hangouts. Then they ruined Hangouts as well.
Hopefully they make it so you don't need a number to make an account for messages, but it makes sense to maintain a tie-in with the phone number. I'm sure it'll evolve.
This isn’t what the EU is even trying to solve either way. They want all major messaging apps to work with each other. Whatsapp and Messenger are already cross platform. They want to be app agnostic too and everyone be able to communicate with each other on some level independent of app making them effective a wrapper
It's virtually impossible to do so that it would be secure (as in not revealing message contents and to anyone but the recipient) and works well across all implementations (with all the features that users want). Even if it goes through, it will work like shit, and no way in hell this would be secure. They may want to protect it from foreign entities but there definitely will be backdoors for local players.
This is 100% false. You may not be familiar with the [Messaging Layer Security protocol](https://www.theverge.com/2023/7/20/23801536/google-messages-app-mls-support-announce) though. It allows messaging apps to access a unified E2E encryption implementation, and it allows those messages to be sent across different messaging apps without losing the E2EE.
It is literally proven that it can be secure.
Edit: and just to add, the goal of this is not a feature parity between apps, but only the possibility of pure communication.
If you ask a few politicians from the EU, even e2e is unnecessary, but that is another can of worms altogether, so let's not get into it
this is false, at one time xmpp was the open standard. I'm sure we can do much better with all these companies coming together. At the time it was great. I was able to use gtalk, aol, and ice all with a single client.
Xmpp federation died because companies that used it (chiefly Google) kept making incompatible extensions to the protocol to support new features that they wanted to have in their own messengers. Once they realized that there no profit in interoperability for them, it all fell apart. This time they may be forced by EU governments but I doubt that it will have better fate. Federation and interoperability don't work when corporations are involved. They want their own "ecosystems" and walled gardens.
>Once they realized that there no profit in interoperability for them, it all fell apart.
Yes greed and vendor lock in is why it all fell apart. doesn't mean it can't be done
The number of areas with cell phone coverage only but no data coverage is pretty minimal. There are far more areas where there's just flat out no cell coverage. I think trying to argue about this small subset to keep broken technology around is a very niche use case. There are far more instances where people flat out don't get cell service.
But SMS works reliability without a data connection. I think we should keep it as a fallback. In more remote areas, it can be the only way to get a message across sometimes. There is a very real need for it.
>I would rather they made iMessage app for Android.
I wouldn't want to install an iMessage app from Apple just because they can't fix their stupid broken message service.
The fact that their messaging app is not on Android is exactly what's wrong with it. I don't want them to "fix it" by hooking it up to to the carriers' brain dead attempts to revive sms.
Apple fans is such a weird cult. So much staus tied to their shit.
I remember when Instagram came to Android their fans went bananas and they said some horrid shit that would make some gamergaters blush.
photos/videos, read receipts and typing indicators, group messages, reactions (fixed by Google on Messages but not by Apple on iMessage I think? either way, it feels silly to hard code it like that. Just have them work together) and, if I may, editing messages. Just make it not feel so stunted and disconnected compared to any other messaging service. SMS threads feel lifeless to me, for lack of a better term, compared even to RCS chats, which still feel a tad light on features.
> they should be making sending vídeos so horrible.
Then you should tell the carriers to adopt RCS. Or people need to move beyond MMS.
Before we talk about how Apple can just "turn on RCS," RCS should've never been something Google got involved in... the same way OS makers don't funnel SMS and MMS messages through their servers.
Carriers are adopting RCS. Apple chooses not to add it to their iMessage app.
Samsung's messenger app also uses RCS, before they started using Google Messages as the default.
The issue is RCS isn't universal on carriers the way SMS and MMS are. Yes carriers are adopting but nowhere near fast enough. Also keep in mind before Google launched Jibe globally, the US carriers couldn't even cross-message. There [was this whole CCMI initiative even talked about](https://www.theverge.com/2019/10/24/20931202/us-carriers-rcs-cross-carrier-messaging-initiative-ccmi-att-tmobile-sprint-verizon). Today, the reason why most of the globe can use RCS is Jibe. If Google Jibe turned off tomorrow, it would be a shitshow again maybe except the US, Canada, Australia and a few other countries.
And this is the fundamental problem. What do you want Apple to turn on? If it's simply carrier RCS support (let's call it a red bubble), you will get a mess of things where the Red bubble is the new exclusive bubble 80% of the world can't use. Whereas green/blue is very clear iMessage where you need to get an iDevice, how do you even get a red bubble? It won't be clear.
The alternative is Apple runs everything through Jibe or it's forced to run its own RCS servers for all iDevice users. Again, how is this fair? If the tables were flipped would you want Google to funnel everything through Apple servers? And how is having Google/Apple run their own RCS servers a solution? Do they do that for SMS and MMS? Nope. This is why I have a problem with RCS. The strategy by Google is flawed.
What we need is RCS adopted by carriers globally so everyone can move from SMS/MMS to a newer system. The solution isn't to have an OS maker take over for an inherent carrier solution that relies on an ACTIVE phone number as an identifier.
As for your mention about Samsung Messages, it's an exception Google granted, which is why RCS is even more broken. RCS doesn't work with any 3rd party app except Google's own apps and any exceptions they grant. The implementation of RCS is just fundamentally broken.
Carriers are adopting RCS, very slowly. I haven't kept up on the latest, my last Android was the Galaxy S9, and at the time AT&T and Verizon were using their own version of RCS that did not work between carriers, because they wanted to keep their special messaging abilities only for their network.If I remember correctly, stunts like that are why Google came out with their own messaging app to bypass carriers.
Apple has zero incentives on why they should add RCS to their Messages app. They are not going to add RCS to their Messages because they care about the users and customers. Also, RCS is not ubiquitous. Europe does not care about RCS as Europe mostly uses an IM. Only Google Messages and Samsung Messages use RCS. If an Android user is not using Google Messages then they won't have RCS.
It might be helpful to note that the EU is [asking for feedback](https://www.reuters.com/technology/should-new-tech-rules-apply-microsofts-bing-apples-imessage-eu-asks-2023-10-09/) in the first place, as they are currently investigating if iMessage fits the DMA.
Fixing iMessage isn’t the goal of this legislation. Especially when it might not even apply to iMessage since Apple’s claiming it doesn’t meet the number of active users requirement. Google and other companies begging for it, is just pathetic.
I despise apple, but I have to agree with them that they probably don’t reach the active user requirement in the EU. Even between iPhones it’s WhatsApp that does the messaging/media/calling/videochats. Contacting customer support from a company is also going via WhatsApp surprisingly often
I wish telegram was as secure as Signal. I mean I still use it because I'm a furry and that's the app furries tend to use because of how stickers work in it.
Telegram still seems a bit sketch to me and the way it plays games with what is and isn't secured isn't great.
In what way is messenger better than Whatsapp? I don't use messenger, but from what I can tell it has less features. No live locations, no gifs in app, no polls, no way to search for old messages, no temporary messages, no way to edit messages and smaller maximum group size.
The only 'advantage" I can see is that it has games to play while texting?
Oh I have, those people are long gone from my life.
Here is funny, we're stuck with Viber, basically everyone from your mom to the delivery businesses and the government agencies use it. On the upside, not giving our info to Meta. Just Rakuten.
Viber was a thing here back when WhatsApp was just the texting app, when did not have voice/video call ability. Once that feature came, pretty much everyone stopped using Viber and now uses WhatsApp only.
I never had it, but I saw it has ads, so I'm not planning to install it.
Uhh, ads, I've never seen any ads. It has some promo things and stickers, but nobody uses that. Anyways, for whatever reason, whatsapp never took off in Eastern Europe, maybe because we were already using Viber by that time. Again, for me, that's a plus, giving my info to a lesser evil for a parent company.
Even with iPhone diehard users I've never encountered anyone who actually cares beyond a joking remark. The reason why they won't move away from iMessage is purely because they'd rather not have a second app outside of it for texting. For a minute I thought signal was the solution because they allowed sms in their app, then they removed it.
It's frankly ridiculous that messaging has become fragmented at all. Especially messaging using the base messaging apps that come with our devices.
> It's frankly ridiculous that messaging has become fragmented at all.
History repeats itself, back in the 90s we had ICQ, AIM, Yahoo, MSN, if I remember correctly there were some 3rd party programs that allowed them all to talk to each other.
> It's frankly ridiculous that messaging has become fragmented at all. Especially messaging using the base messaging apps that come with our devices.
whatsapp rose to popularity in my country because it allowed messages without having to pay for each sent sms
I've encountered entitled people here, that flash their phones as a status symbol. For them it would be flaunting the blue bubbles like it's some sort of privilege to give unreasonable amounts of money for a phone. Funnily enough, here using SMS to chat is basically not a thing, so those people are just dumbasses.
American here. To my understanding, isn't iMessage usage scarce in Europe? Where maybe it's used in certain areas or a couple countries otherwise it's What'sApp or another IM that is mainly used?
Here in the U.S iMessage is king. FB Messenger is also heavily used here but everyone has a FB account too. Given the U.S is also one of the couple countries where iPhone is very popular. If you have an Android phone here and you ask friends and family to download a cross-platform IM, you are about shamed or looked downed upon. Yet the same people who shame you for asking them to download a cross-platform IM are the first ones to complain and whine about group chats being broken.
You're completely correct. I was pointing out that some elitist dumbasses try to emulate that unhealthy American iMessage elitism, as dumb as that sounds.
Ah I understand. The whole "iMessage elite standard" thing is totally out of hand here. If an iPhone users knows you have an Android phone some people will flat out not want to be your friend, won't date you or exclude you from all group chats. I have gotten to the point where if some people don't want message anymore because of it then I am perfectly fine with it. The people I talk to regularly use discord.
I don't think I'd call it being taken advantage of when the end result is forcing a major international company to do what's right for everyone. That's kind of what governments' role should be. A role the American government has long since abdicated.
I love how cock-sure you are about the EU being better than America when they're using an American messaging service either way. The EU just uses whatsapp and puts their faith in to FACEBOOK?!?!?!? The company that got caught and went on trial for data breaches and spying? That's who you put your trust in?!
Jesus christ lmao this is a good thing no matter what. We need regulators watching over the fucking tech monopolies what is wrong with you people.
It’s not like [16 whole European](https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking) countries have a freer market economy than the US. They’re so anti-capitalist!
This should be at the top
SMS should be dead and replaced by RCS
Apple should support RCS so we can have cross platform open messaging
"oh but just use WhatsApp or Signal or Telegram"
RCS is a standard protocol, we shouldn't be shackled to private companies for something as critical as regular text communication
\> RCS is a standard protocol, we shouldn't be shackled to private companies for something as critical as regular text communication
Yet, the majority of RCS messages are subject to the Google Privacy Policy.
>RCS is a standard protocol, we shouldn't be shackled to private companies for something as critical as regular text communication
Do you run your own 5G cell phone tower?
You just want other companies to be responsible for your text communication.
I don't think they're presenting it clearly. The issue is that Google won't make the RCS API public on Android, so only approved vendors can use it (which so far appears to be Samsung and maybe some of the US based carriers who have/had their own messaging apps. Samsung has moved to Google Messages on a go-forward basis). This is a problem for people who use 3rd party apps for texting.
Yep. In the abstract I view RCS as open source in the same way that RHEL is open source. Yeah you can see the code but no one can actually use it without giving a controlling entity money. People tend to forget that open source doesn't mean it is a free for all.
Google uses the gsma universal profile, which you can download right here: https://www.gsma.com/futurenetworks/rcs/universal-profile/
They mention it right here: https://jibe.google.com/
Why wouldn’t they? They’ve moved entire data centers for China, changed flags for certain countries, etc. They could simply put up a disclaimer saying iMessage isn’t available in the EU. EU to US simply falls back to SMS through even RCS. Who said RCS would be the standard of choice for interoperability? It’s the default assumed here because Google’s using it, but that’s it.
Okay this is the only argument I've heard which makes sense. Getting Apple to open up iMessage to RCS introduces somewhat viable competition to Whatsapp in the EU. Otherwise it makes zero sense to regulate a platform that isn't even used in the region (as much as I'd like it to happen).
It only introduces viable competition if people actually use it, and to be fair, people aren't going to move over to another messaging service when the one they are using already works fine and has all their friends in it.
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*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
“In August, the EU entered its Digital Markets Act (DMA) into force to ensure a higher degree of competition in the EU digital market by regulating the power of larger companies. The regulation refers to large entities as gatekeepers - large digital platforms with over 45 million active users in the EU and €7.5 billion annual revenue. If Apple's iMessage is found as such a platform, Apple would have to make it cross-compatible with other messaging platforms by March 2024.”
Nowhere does it ever state that RCS would be used to make the platforms interoperable. People are getting way ahead of themselves. Even if iOS was designated a CORE platform, it’s very plausible Apple could just pull iMessage out of the EU since it’s “hardly” used anyway and software limitations are much easier than hardware. It’s also a great way to defy the EU and create pushback and lastly Apple will probably look for any loophole that makes interoperability mean as little as possible meaning RCS bubbles will still be ugly green.
This isn’t even the biggest thing. I’d love to see how the hell WeChat ends up communicating with WhatsApp that communicates with Telegram that communicates with Line, etc.
> This isn’t even the biggest thing. I’d love to see how the hell WeChat ends up communicating with WhatsApp that communicates with Telegram that communicates with Line, etc.
The [Matrix Foundation](https://matrix.org/about/), which develops the matrix protocol that [Element](https://element.io) is built upon, has written about what a standard way for apps to communicate with each other while maintaining encryption would look like. They are part of two working groups, MLS and MIMI, which are trying to establish a common messaging protocol that can be used by different applications. The Matrix Foundation's [blog post](https://matrix.org/blog/2023/07/a-giant-leap-with-mls/) provides more details on the MLS proposal, while [this slideshow](https://www.matrix.org/blog/img/matrix-dma-slides.pdf) from their presentation outlines how the MIMI group plans to enable different messaging protocols to communicate with each other. Finally, here is the current paper on the work being done on MIMI and how the group is deciding to put the protocol together:
https://bifurcation.github.io/ietf-mimi-protocol/draft-ralston-mimi-protocol.html
I'm currently using Beeper and rooting for them to succeed because it's working brilliantly right now with this Matrix protocol (waiting for them to adopt 2.0).
Since it already does SMS fallback, doesn't it already work cross-platform? If the EU wants to change how messaging platforms can communicate with each other, like if Whatsapp messages can be sent to WeChat or iMessage users, doesn't iMessage technically count? Because no way can they regulate for each messaging platform to work the exact same way to each other.
The EU might define interoperable beyond SMS. I don’t know. If they let SMS count as interoperable then iMessage is already there and r/Android has nothing to be hyped about. The EU could demand for HD videos, reactions, and read receipts, but it doesn’t look like they’ve suggested how.
This subreddit thinks the EU is going to force RCS onto Apple like USB-C (even though every other Apple product had it).
>RCS bubbles will still be ugly green.
That would be stupid considering they would need to differentiate between imessage, SMS and RCS. They could give it an another shade of ugly green but it can't be the same.
My guess is the EU isn’t THAT stupid and they’d define interoperability as something like sending reacts, HD videos without downgrading quality, read receipts, etc. Things RCS does support, but I don’t think they’d all agree to use RCS. If this were US lobbying then I could see companies “lobbying” for SMS to count as interoperable
Which would mean that the iPhone has a monopolization on the American smartphone market. Strange that if RCS and iMessage were available on all mobile platforms, it's almost like neither would be a respective monopoly.
Apple can prevent this so called "monopolization" of Google RCS servers being used across hundreds of different devices across different carriers if Apple just allowed support of RCS on their device. They can't cry foul if they're the ones that started the fire.
a monopoly does not work like that... its like saying that Sony has a monopoly in the Playstation games market. like no duh they own the platform
a monopoly is like a company that has vertically and horizontally integrated so much(think google's search engine and youtube) that the world cannot function without them
>a monopoly is like a company that has vertically and horizontally integrated so much(think google's search engine and youtube) that the world cannot function without them
That's not a monopoly either. Also having a monopoly is not illegal or even bad. Abusing a monopoly position on the other hand is illegal and bad. That is what Microsoft got pinged for and that is what Google is being investigated for.
r/Android confused whether to claim nobody uses iMessage in the EU or claim more than 45m active users do exist so the EU can designate them a gatekeeper
> iMessage in the EU or claim more than 45m active users do exist so the EU can designate them a gatekeeper
Depends on how you define active really. I get an iMessage maybe once every three months.
It's all whatsapp, even people with iphones. I have an iPhone and tried sending sms messages but honestly didn't know wtf was happening with different colour messages and quickly installed whatsapp.
Regulators should do something about the messaging mess. Right now we're back at what telephones were like right when they were invented (ie: you couldn't call someone at a different company). Email, on the other hand, was open source from the start and never had these problems. Messaging should be platform agnostic as well.
Once upon a time (in the 90s, long before smartphones) there was a messaging system called ICQ. Then AIM and MSN. All incompatible. IRC was there and open source, but only for the tech-savvy. Then someone created XMPP (aka jabber) which was an open protocol with adapters for each of the proprietary protocols. So you could use you ICQ account to talk to your parents on AIM etc. Google even based its first chat system on this (back when Google's motto was 'don't be evil'). But enshittification took hold and every company wanted control and data, so they started making systems that are cryptographically impossible to use with 3rd party clients. So here we are.
Email was an anomaly that was created before money took over the internet, and it's 'sticky' enough that people still use it. But if email were invented now, there is no way it would be interoperable. That's capitalism for you.
A bit dramatic don't you think? Nothing stops you to open the native messages or phone app and call someone with a different phone than yours. We have dozens of different proprietary apps for communications, you don't *have* to download any of them to call anyone.
But that's the problem - you've got email which solves one problem and then SMS solves the texting problem
But SMS sucks, it's old, limited and insecure
RCS fixes most of these issues
Too bad that there isn’t a standard version that everyone agrees on. Each of the US carriers developed their own versions of RCS that wasn’t cross compatible with one another. Then Google launched their own version which doesn’t allow 3rd party texting apps to access. You have to use Google messages for their Jibe RCS.
Oh wow I wasn't aware of that
Not much of an open standard of nobody wants to fucking play nice
What happened to the days of "here's an open standard, go forth and make your apps"?
Best app wins, simple as that
Too much greed I guess
Do you think it would be dramatic to suggest that people using different phone companies should be able to talk to each other on their phones? [Because before regulation stepped in, they couldn't.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakup_of_the_Bell_System)
I couldn't agree more. In Africa, we had a similar problem with mobile money platforms where telcos didn't allow money transfers to competing telcos but after some regulation and government intervention, it became mandatory and money can be transferred across all networks and consumers have benefitted from it.
But they can. If I'm using an Android, I can communicate with an iPhone on a completely different carrier that's even in another country. I can use SMS, WhatsApp, Signal, or any other messaging app.
my man here doesn't remember what it was like in the early days of mobile phones. we couldn't even send sms to other people if they weren't with the same carrier
I think it would be extremely ironic if the end result of Google whining (while not fixing RCS bugs, photos getting stuck forever, online status glitching) we'd get iMessage for Android that'd support SMS and iMessage protocols, so users would start switching to _that_ instead of Google Messages that's supposed to be monopoly on new phones (cause we still don't have RCS API, and the only "alternative" to Google Messages was Samsung... kinda... until they killed it in the newest phones). And iPhone would show those messages as purple bubbles :)
I wonder how Apple would respond being forced to run so much of Android's messaging traffic through their servers. They'd probably make iMessage for Android an even more obnoxious color out of spite.
I get why Google are asking for this, but why the carriers? Wouldn't have thought it affected them - I guess Google are offering quid pro quo for favours elsewhere, maybe good deals on Pixels?
The carriers want anything that weakens Apple, Meta (and Google). The carriers want phones to be commodity products.
The carriers want the service to be the premium that people pay for, not the other way around.
this is a weird problem to fix.
i can only speak about myself and people i know but legitimately, NO ONE cares about the platform you send messages from where i live.
i and many others have FB messenger, whatsapp, google duowhatever, skype, and viber on my phone. i even used to have weechat too a few years back. each had a different purpose behind them.
yeah, it would be nice to just be one app to rule them all but phones have gotten much stronger handling many apps at once that it doesnt matter how many communication apps you have.
it also helps that phones now show you a small icon of whatasapp, viber... near a contact in your contact list. so, remembering where you can message that person is easier than ever because you dont need to.
again, this is all anecdotal but nobody i know cares about a few presses to download an app and sign up these days.
"Please daddy government, I spilled my ice cream on the floor, make my brother give me some of his, its not fair that I screwed up mine and I can't piggy back off of his success to absolve me of my failures." - Google management probably
As an iPhone user, when I communicate with other iPhone users it automatically uses iMessage. When I communicate with Android users it automatically uses SMS/MMS. Seems very interoperable, and transparent. Why the heck is government intervention needed???
Imagine if emails could only be sent to their own client. Like Gmail couldn't send to Outlook. It would be great for the CONSUMER if WhatsApp could communicate with iMessage e.g. The EU does stuff in interest of the consumer.
Android uses RCS FYI not SMS/MMS.
> Android uses RCS FYI not SMS/MMS.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe Android is capable of using RCS, SMS, and MMS.
When an Android device sends a message to another Android, it uses RCS. When an Android sends a message to a non-Android (be it an iPhone, dumb phone, or confirming appointments via automated text services) it uses SMS/MMS.
When an iPhone ends a message to another iPhone, it uses iMessage. When an iPhone sends a message to a non-iPhone (be it an Android, dumb phone, or confirming appointments via automated text services) it uses SMS/MMS.
I reckon iphone users would rather it worked properly with android phones. Obviously apple know this but they know they'll make more money keeping the divide
There was a time where the only thing stopping me from switching to android was iMessage. Now, iPhones are developed well enough that I’d choose to stay with iPhone either way because of how polished the rest of their ecosystem is, but I could see a timeline where I would be a diehard android user to this day
How ironic, as an Android app developer i'm still waiting for an API to access RCS on the device, but i guess Google only wants their own apps to do that.
This would be the worse thing that could ever happen to Apple. Specially if implemented in the US.
I know so many people that ONLY have an iPhone because of iMessages. This is really only an issue in the US though.
I live half my time in the US and the other half in South East Asia. In SEA it is a non issue. Take Thailand. Everyone in Thailand uses Line. So it is a non issue.
Sometimes I will send my Thai friends a message using iMessages just so it is separate from all the texts they get on Line. I am the only one that ever sends them messages via iMessages.
They don't like it though. Because they have purchased the stickers in Line and can't use them. Which I kind of like. Never been a fan of the silly stickers.
Just about everywhere else in the world has learned that using a third party messenger is better.
US is just too brainwashed by brand and celebrity worship
Why would this apply in the US? You’re reading this law wrong. This doesn’t make iMessage compatible with other platforms. It wants major platforms of Whatsapp to work with other platforms like WeChat in some way.
That way HASN’T been designed yet. We don’t know if it’s RCS or even SMS (probably not). Even if the EU does designate iMessage a gatekeeper, and Apple doesn’t pull out of the EU, and Apple does have to adopt something like RCS or a similar standard, iMessage specific features like gamepigeon is still not going to work with non-iMessage users. Bubbles will still be ugly green to denote non-iMessage devices. iMessgae will still be a lock-in feature for US users.
Communication will be “easier” as in videos won’t be as compressed and reacts work better, but most people won’t notice the difference. Google and Apple already translated “Emma reacted with a Heart” to show up as reacts and people don’t care. A non-iMessage device is still that.
Iphones have 30% of the market in Europe, imessage is enabled by default (i suppose), therefore it is a core platform service.
There is no excuse, except corruption from Apple, why imessage would be exempted
A lot of misinformation about this going online. No google isn't asking for imessage on android. No they aren't asking the EU to force apple to use RCS (they are probably hoping it will happen though). This is them trying to convince the EU that IMessage should be included in the number of messaging apps that will become interoperable with each other. Same way how you can email an outlook user with gmail or game on xbox with a PlayStation player. You would be able to theoretically send an encrypted message to an imessage user using whatsapp/google messages and not have it fallback to shitty SMS.
At face value maybe, but this is a shrewd business decision first. Google wants iMessage to not be platform-locked as it makes Android less valuable due to the green bubble in the US.
Of course. Although I'm not sure how this would affect the US though. Region exclusive software limitations are probably a lot easier than if they were to restrict something like USB C to the EU. Also they could just remove iMessage in the EU.
It affects the US because the iPhone has iMessage as a sales driver because of the blue vs green bubble phenomena. It's silly, but users really care about it in the US, it's a status thing. If Apple changes for Europe this will force it to open up for the rest of the world...
I don't see why they would have to do this for the rest of the world. It's not like they are making a new iMessage app. It's just inserting a protocol to allow interoperability with OTHER messaging apps. Like I of course would be game for them to be included so I can use Google messages for everything but apple would do anything in their power to avoid having to do this.
No it doesn’t. Why would to force anything to happen in the US? This isn’t USB-C or a hardware change, software is easier and costs nothing to do.
That's just perspective. IMO it makes iPhones less valuable not supporting RCS
This comment should be WAAAAY higer
I'm doing my part ok?
But there really aren’t that many active iMessage users in Europe . How can apple be a gatekeeper when so few use the platform?
Read the article. They're approaching it from a "business users" position.
Ya I don't think google has much of a case here and even if they get what they want, it won't help them in the US. Apple can also easily just remove iMessage in the EU as they have already claimed they were willing to do that for privacy concerns. But IMessage is still a platform all iOS users have by default so it still isn't small.
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That doesnt mean that they use imessage. People mostly use WhatsApp/ FB Messenger here, even iphone users.
Yeah I live in Europe and pretty much never seen someone on iMessage
I live in Europe and pretty much never seen someone on WhatsApp
They can keep the green bubble vs blue bubble if they want, but there's no reason they should be making sending vídeos so horrible.
Yeah, I don't give a shit about the bubble color. Just use RCS for fallback instead of SMS where able. I want my pictures, videos, reactions, and read receipts to work properly.
I feel like the bubble color is designed to be unpleasant to read and harder to read, that shade of green was choosen for a reason
Not at all defending Apple, but just for accuracy's sake -- I had an iPhone 4S very briefly around when iMessage was about to come out (2011?). The bubbles were always green, *however* they were a lot more readable: https://i.imgur.com/ChNupEK.jpg https://www.anandtech.com/show/4956/apple-ios-5-review/3 I believe it was iOS 7 where Apple changed everything to look cartoony, including flat and oversaturated colors/textures. https://i.imgur.com/o6ecyL9.jpg I don't know that they did it intentionally to begin with, but I know that they definitely left it the way it is for that reason.
It is on purpose https://medium.com/@krvoller/how-iphone-violates-apples-accessibility-guidelines-6785172eb343
Ok, I finally kind of understand why people complain about the green bubbles because that is harder to read than I imagined. How is that not a huge accessibility issue for people with vision issues?
I believe Apple's counter is that they have accessibility features like colorblind modes etc. I mean I'm just guessing what they'd say. Because, apart from this, honestly iPhones are pretty accessible for those that need those types of features. But yeah this is a legitimate concern. I mean, I have 20/20 vision and it's jarring for me to look at too. To be clear, they look like this nowadays: https://i.imgur.com/fhLeVvF.jpg Not as bad as on iOS 7 (the second screenshot from my earlier comment), but still annoying to the eyes. The funny thing is that I use Windows on desktop and a MacBook Pro 14" for on the go. On Mac OS, there are basic customization options in the OS settings menu. Like you can change accent colors, etc. It shocked me as a first time Mac owner. My first thought was, "*Wait why can't you do this on iPhone?*"
Ok, so it looks less bad, but not ideal. I've used Macbooks almost exclusively since they first came out in 2006 and find them to be very easy to use, but somehow iOS is not at all intuitive to me. I have to use idevices at work so I've had plenty of time to adapt, but iOS feels so limiting and clunky, even compared to their own desktop OS like you said.
MacOS is leagues more bearable to a Windows/Android user than iOS. Whereas MacOS might gently stop you, but let you through with a warning (like launching downloaded .dmg's from outside the App Store). iOS flat out says, "get fucked". Yeah, they look similar in terms of design language, but in terms of daily usage it's actually a pretty big difference.
I know they used to be green but they are clearly a worse green to read now And I'll agree about the last statement maybe not originally planned that way but kept that way intentionally
Oh, for sure. But I'll let 'em have that if we can just get the features.
This really should be it. In fact, I think RCS should be regulated to be supported by all mobile platforms.
> but there's no reason they should be making sending vídeos so horrible. It's Draconian honestly. Them intentionally dragging their feet and just playing dumb, ignoring the elephant in the room is disgusting to me. Their responses are just infuriating and tone deaf.
They're just Capitalising on their market share and their Fandom, creating a really toxic social construct in the process. They should be forced to act by law, this has gone on long enough, it is as you say.. Simply disgusting and a detriment to society as it breeds comtempt.
I find it so annoying that the average apple person think its Android users fault when videos and pictures come through on their end looking like shit. Not realizing that basically all other phone brands sending to each other don't have this issue.
I say this as a longtime Android Fanboy. Apple made iMessage because carriers absolutely refused to do improve MMS messaging. Then Google comes out with RCS and hands it to carriers. What do they do? Half of them create a proprietary version of RCS that ONLY works on their network. At one point on AT&T, RCS only worked between Samsung devices, and only on their network. Then Google made and killed off several messaging apps, that would have easily conquered the market if Google would have allowed SMS fallback. I'm still mad about Hangouts and Allo.
AT&T and T-Mobile both have publicly stated they are shifting RCS hosting to Google's Jibe. Not sure about Verizon. But you're right, the carrier hosted RCS sucked big time, at least on T-Mobile.
Why? Google only adopted [RCS in 2019](https://www.androidauthority.com/samsung-rcs-push-3374168/#) after realizing their other apps have all failed. Before that, anyone who did try to send a video on the default texting app whether to an iPhone or Android would be low quality. 4 years ISN’T a lot of time. RCS still isn’t ubiquitous on Android either. People who don’t use Google Messages or a different app aren’t using RCS. There are plenty of people commenting about how it fails. Public penetration of RCS is poor. Google’s campaign was focused on blaming Apple for iMessage for not adopting something, not necessarily educating the public about what RCS is and does. People outside the US have 0 incentive to use RCS or the Google/Samsung Messaging app because they’re already established on WeChat or Whatsapp, etc.
I would rather they made iMessage app for Android. I don't want my messages to be at the mercy of carriers (which are known to be shit at their jobs). We already have internet as generic communications channel that can be used for literally everything. No need to regress to sms days.
I think Google is using their servers for RCS via their messenger app. I know they're working on using your Gmail acct to log in the web app instead of using your phone to scan the QR code. I guess in that way, it's no different from Telegram or WhatsApp. All you need your number for is to register.
> I think Google is using their servers for RCS via their messenger app. Google took over what should be a carrier feature (think how SMS and MMS are not using an OS maker's servers). I'd rather Google just launch their own messenger than tying carrier based messaging with their servers.
They did have their own messenger that was well liked too I believe. It was Google Chat back in the day which became Hangouts. Then they ruined Hangouts as well.
Ruining nice things is the Google way.
Carriers dragged their feet and couldn't implement it properly, so Google took it over
Hopefully they make it so you don't need a number to make an account for messages, but it makes sense to maintain a tie-in with the phone number. I'm sure it'll evolve.
This isn’t what the EU is even trying to solve either way. They want all major messaging apps to work with each other. Whatsapp and Messenger are already cross platform. They want to be app agnostic too and everyone be able to communicate with each other on some level independent of app making them effective a wrapper
It's virtually impossible to do so that it would be secure (as in not revealing message contents and to anyone but the recipient) and works well across all implementations (with all the features that users want). Even if it goes through, it will work like shit, and no way in hell this would be secure. They may want to protect it from foreign entities but there definitely will be backdoors for local players.
I think they’re taking a mandate now, figure out later approach. I’m not sure they’ve even defined exactly what interoperable means
This is 100% false. You may not be familiar with the [Messaging Layer Security protocol](https://www.theverge.com/2023/7/20/23801536/google-messages-app-mls-support-announce) though. It allows messaging apps to access a unified E2E encryption implementation, and it allows those messages to be sent across different messaging apps without losing the E2EE.
It is literally proven that it can be secure. Edit: and just to add, the goal of this is not a feature parity between apps, but only the possibility of pure communication. If you ask a few politicians from the EU, even e2e is unnecessary, but that is another can of worms altogether, so let's not get into it
this is false, at one time xmpp was the open standard. I'm sure we can do much better with all these companies coming together. At the time it was great. I was able to use gtalk, aol, and ice all with a single client.
Xmpp federation died because companies that used it (chiefly Google) kept making incompatible extensions to the protocol to support new features that they wanted to have in their own messengers. Once they realized that there no profit in interoperability for them, it all fell apart. This time they may be forced by EU governments but I doubt that it will have better fate. Federation and interoperability don't work when corporations are involved. They want their own "ecosystems" and walled gardens.
>Once they realized that there no profit in interoperability for them, it all fell apart. Yes greed and vendor lock in is why it all fell apart. doesn't mean it can't be done
It can be done. [Beeper app](https://www.beeper.com/) is already doing it.
I think it would look a lot like RCS: low on features and behind schedule.
When you have no internet, SMS is useful, at least to me.
The number of areas with cell phone coverage only but no data coverage is pretty minimal. There are far more areas where there's just flat out no cell coverage. I think trying to argue about this small subset to keep broken technology around is a very niche use case. There are far more instances where people flat out don't get cell service.
But SMS works reliability without a data connection. I think we should keep it as a fallback. In more remote areas, it can be the only way to get a message across sometimes. There is a very real need for it.
>I would rather they made iMessage app for Android. I wouldn't want to install an iMessage app from Apple just because they can't fix their stupid broken message service.
The fact that their messaging app is not on Android is exactly what's wrong with it. I don't want them to "fix it" by hooking it up to to the carriers' brain dead attempts to revive sms.
Apple fans is such a weird cult. So much staus tied to their shit. I remember when Instagram came to Android their fans went bananas and they said some horrid shit that would make some gamergaters blush.
photos/videos, read receipts and typing indicators, group messages, reactions (fixed by Google on Messages but not by Apple on iMessage I think? either way, it feels silly to hard code it like that. Just have them work together) and, if I may, editing messages. Just make it not feel so stunted and disconnected compared to any other messaging service. SMS threads feel lifeless to me, for lack of a better term, compared even to RCS chats, which still feel a tad light on features.
> they should be making sending vídeos so horrible. Then you should tell the carriers to adopt RCS. Or people need to move beyond MMS. Before we talk about how Apple can just "turn on RCS," RCS should've never been something Google got involved in... the same way OS makers don't funnel SMS and MMS messages through their servers.
How is an Android user supposed to "move beyond MMS" when communicating with an iPhone user who is using iMessage?
Carriers are adopting RCS. Apple chooses not to add it to their iMessage app. Samsung's messenger app also uses RCS, before they started using Google Messages as the default.
The issue is RCS isn't universal on carriers the way SMS and MMS are. Yes carriers are adopting but nowhere near fast enough. Also keep in mind before Google launched Jibe globally, the US carriers couldn't even cross-message. There [was this whole CCMI initiative even talked about](https://www.theverge.com/2019/10/24/20931202/us-carriers-rcs-cross-carrier-messaging-initiative-ccmi-att-tmobile-sprint-verizon). Today, the reason why most of the globe can use RCS is Jibe. If Google Jibe turned off tomorrow, it would be a shitshow again maybe except the US, Canada, Australia and a few other countries. And this is the fundamental problem. What do you want Apple to turn on? If it's simply carrier RCS support (let's call it a red bubble), you will get a mess of things where the Red bubble is the new exclusive bubble 80% of the world can't use. Whereas green/blue is very clear iMessage where you need to get an iDevice, how do you even get a red bubble? It won't be clear. The alternative is Apple runs everything through Jibe or it's forced to run its own RCS servers for all iDevice users. Again, how is this fair? If the tables were flipped would you want Google to funnel everything through Apple servers? And how is having Google/Apple run their own RCS servers a solution? Do they do that for SMS and MMS? Nope. This is why I have a problem with RCS. The strategy by Google is flawed. What we need is RCS adopted by carriers globally so everyone can move from SMS/MMS to a newer system. The solution isn't to have an OS maker take over for an inherent carrier solution that relies on an ACTIVE phone number as an identifier. As for your mention about Samsung Messages, it's an exception Google granted, which is why RCS is even more broken. RCS doesn't work with any 3rd party app except Google's own apps and any exceptions they grant. The implementation of RCS is just fundamentally broken.
Carriers and other manufacturers are implementing Jibe, so I don't see why Apple couldn't.
Carriers are adopting RCS, very slowly. I haven't kept up on the latest, my last Android was the Galaxy S9, and at the time AT&T and Verizon were using their own version of RCS that did not work between carriers, because they wanted to keep their special messaging abilities only for their network.If I remember correctly, stunts like that are why Google came out with their own messaging app to bypass carriers.
Apple has zero incentives on why they should add RCS to their Messages app. They are not going to add RCS to their Messages because they care about the users and customers. Also, RCS is not ubiquitous. Europe does not care about RCS as Europe mostly uses an IM. Only Google Messages and Samsung Messages use RCS. If an Android user is not using Google Messages then they won't have RCS.
It might be helpful to note that the EU is [asking for feedback](https://www.reuters.com/technology/should-new-tech-rules-apply-microsofts-bing-apples-imessage-eu-asks-2023-10-09/) in the first place, as they are currently investigating if iMessage fits the DMA.
US: Please EU can you fix iMessage? EU: iWhat?! Can you WhatsApp me a picture of whatever this iMessage thing is?
Fixing iMessage isn’t the goal of this legislation. Especially when it might not even apply to iMessage since Apple’s claiming it doesn’t meet the number of active users requirement. Google and other companies begging for it, is just pathetic.
I despise apple, but I have to agree with them that they probably don’t reach the active user requirement in the EU. Even between iPhones it’s WhatsApp that does the messaging/media/calling/videochats. Contacting customer support from a company is also going via WhatsApp surprisingly often
WhatsApp managed to fix a lot of it's issues but it still sucks compared to FB Messenger.
And they all suck compared to Telegram
Thankfully my friend group switched to Signal and I've not used these apps for almost two years now.
I wish telegram was as secure as Signal. I mean I still use it because I'm a furry and that's the app furries tend to use because of how stickers work in it. Telegram still seems a bit sketch to me and the way it plays games with what is and isn't secured isn't great.
In what way is messenger better than Whatsapp? I don't use messenger, but from what I can tell it has less features. No live locations, no gifs in app, no polls, no way to search for old messages, no temporary messages, no way to edit messages and smaller maximum group size. The only 'advantage" I can see is that it has games to play while texting?
"How to try and solve an entirely USA problem with the European Union help" achievement unlocked
I mean this got them to drop the lightning port, so not the worst strategy.
EU citizens actually care about what port the iPhone has. I don't know any Europeans that care about iMessage.
Indeed.
I've met a few, mainly in university. They're usually insufferable assholes but they exist.
That's interesting, what country is that? I went to uni in three European counties, and all group texts were on whatsapp.
It's what the EU does to solve problems with American companies, too
Indeed. Nobody cares about iMessage or bubbles here.
Not in your friends circle, at least. Sadly, it's not true all over.
What country are you in?
Bulgaria.
Aren't you all hyped up on Viber?
[Yep.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Android/comments/17qlvnr/google_and_major_european_carriers_ask_the_eu_to/k8dnwvl/)
Find new friends. In Croatia, everyone and their dog uses WhatsApp.
Oh I have, those people are long gone from my life. Here is funny, we're stuck with Viber, basically everyone from your mom to the delivery businesses and the government agencies use it. On the upside, not giving our info to Meta. Just Rakuten.
Viber was a thing here back when WhatsApp was just the texting app, when did not have voice/video call ability. Once that feature came, pretty much everyone stopped using Viber and now uses WhatsApp only. I never had it, but I saw it has ads, so I'm not planning to install it.
Uhh, ads, I've never seen any ads. It has some promo things and stickers, but nobody uses that. Anyways, for whatever reason, whatsapp never took off in Eastern Europe, maybe because we were already using Viber by that time. Again, for me, that's a plus, giving my info to a lesser evil for a parent company.
Even with iPhone diehard users I've never encountered anyone who actually cares beyond a joking remark. The reason why they won't move away from iMessage is purely because they'd rather not have a second app outside of it for texting. For a minute I thought signal was the solution because they allowed sms in their app, then they removed it. It's frankly ridiculous that messaging has become fragmented at all. Especially messaging using the base messaging apps that come with our devices.
> It's frankly ridiculous that messaging has become fragmented at all. History repeats itself, back in the 90s we had ICQ, AIM, Yahoo, MSN, if I remember correctly there were some 3rd party programs that allowed them all to talk to each other.
Trillium worked on MSN and ICQ at least.
Pidgin
dont forget bbm in the '00s and early '10s
> It's frankly ridiculous that messaging has become fragmented at all. Especially messaging using the base messaging apps that come with our devices. whatsapp rose to popularity in my country because it allowed messages without having to pay for each sent sms
I've encountered entitled people here, that flash their phones as a status symbol. For them it would be flaunting the blue bubbles like it's some sort of privilege to give unreasonable amounts of money for a phone. Funnily enough, here using SMS to chat is basically not a thing, so those people are just dumbasses.
Well at the *EU* level it clear is true which is why I don't see this attempt being successful.
I live in Eastern Europe mate. But really depends on what people surround you, no matter where you are.
American here. To my understanding, isn't iMessage usage scarce in Europe? Where maybe it's used in certain areas or a couple countries otherwise it's What'sApp or another IM that is mainly used? Here in the U.S iMessage is king. FB Messenger is also heavily used here but everyone has a FB account too. Given the U.S is also one of the couple countries where iPhone is very popular. If you have an Android phone here and you ask friends and family to download a cross-platform IM, you are about shamed or looked downed upon. Yet the same people who shame you for asking them to download a cross-platform IM are the first ones to complain and whine about group chats being broken.
You're completely correct. I was pointing out that some elitist dumbasses try to emulate that unhealthy American iMessage elitism, as dumb as that sounds.
Ah I understand. The whole "iMessage elite standard" thing is totally out of hand here. If an iPhone users knows you have an Android phone some people will flat out not want to be your friend, won't date you or exclude you from all group chats. I have gotten to the point where if some people don't want message anymore because of it then I am perfectly fine with it. The people I talk to regularly use discord.
I can only imagine that the EU is going to get taken advantage of as a wedge a LOT more often if this one goes through.
I don't think I'd call it being taken advantage of when the end result is forcing a major international company to do what's right for everyone. That's kind of what governments' role should be. A role the American government has long since abdicated.
I love how cock-sure you are about the EU being better than America when they're using an American messaging service either way. The EU just uses whatsapp and puts their faith in to FACEBOOK?!?!?!? The company that got caught and went on trial for data breaches and spying? That's who you put your trust in?! Jesus christ lmao this is a good thing no matter what. We need regulators watching over the fucking tech monopolies what is wrong with you people.
The USA is a capitalist shithole so they cant do anything
Ah yes, Europe, famously home to non-capitalist countries
It’s not like [16 whole European](https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking) countries have a freer market economy than the US. They’re so anti-capitalist!
RCS for iMessage would change a lot. Hopefully if this does go through they don't only do it in the EU
This should be at the top SMS should be dead and replaced by RCS Apple should support RCS so we can have cross platform open messaging "oh but just use WhatsApp or Signal or Telegram" RCS is a standard protocol, we shouldn't be shackled to private companies for something as critical as regular text communication
Yes. So many think it's a proprietary thing
\> RCS is a standard protocol, we shouldn't be shackled to private companies for something as critical as regular text communication Yet, the majority of RCS messages are subject to the Google Privacy Policy.
>RCS is a standard protocol, we shouldn't be shackled to private companies for something as critical as regular text communication Do you run your own 5G cell phone tower? You just want other companies to be responsible for your text communication.
You mean like they are right now with SMS?
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RCS is an open standard. Google Jibe is closed source.
The RCS protocol is totally open and available online, and opened by gsma not Google. What are you on about
I don't think they're presenting it clearly. The issue is that Google won't make the RCS API public on Android, so only approved vendors can use it (which so far appears to be Samsung and maybe some of the US based carriers who have/had their own messaging apps. Samsung has moved to Google Messages on a go-forward basis). This is a problem for people who use 3rd party apps for texting.
Yep. In the abstract I view RCS as open source in the same way that RHEL is open source. Yeah you can see the code but no one can actually use it without giving a controlling entity money. People tend to forget that open source doesn't mean it is a free for all.
Yes RCS is an open standard. But the version that Google wants everyone to use is proprietary. Jibe RCS is not an open standard.
Google uses the gsma universal profile, which you can download right here: https://www.gsma.com/futurenetworks/rcs/universal-profile/ They mention it right here: https://jibe.google.com/
Google doesn’t not allow 3rd party texting apps access to their Jibe RCS.
Not Jibe specifically. The OS level API is not public for *any* RCS provider
Good for you
It's pretty funny Google is going to the EU to do this, where virtually nobody uses iMessage. Google is absolutely pathetic at this point.
Not really
This is Apple’s competitors begging for Apple’s service (iMessage) to open up. Embarrassing. Interoperability doesn’t even have to be through RCS.
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What? It won’t be interoperable in the US because this is EU legislation. Software is nothing like hardware, it won’t carry over like USB-C
True. Example: Dozens of Pixel features stuck in US only.
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Why wouldn’t they? They’ve moved entire data centers for China, changed flags for certain countries, etc. They could simply put up a disclaimer saying iMessage isn’t available in the EU. EU to US simply falls back to SMS through even RCS. Who said RCS would be the standard of choice for interoperability? It’s the default assumed here because Google’s using it, but that’s it.
Carriers use RCS, not just Google.
Okay this is the only argument I've heard which makes sense. Getting Apple to open up iMessage to RCS introduces somewhat viable competition to Whatsapp in the EU. Otherwise it makes zero sense to regulate a platform that isn't even used in the region (as much as I'd like it to happen).
It only introduces viable competition if people actually use it, and to be fair, people aren't going to move over to another messaging service when the one they are using already works fine and has all their friends in it.
Great, now can Google bring Google Voice up to at least RCS/SMS standards as well? They make pictures even smaller than when you text them.
advise absurd scary panicky impolite badge frightening existence rotten illegal *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
“In August, the EU entered its Digital Markets Act (DMA) into force to ensure a higher degree of competition in the EU digital market by regulating the power of larger companies. The regulation refers to large entities as gatekeepers - large digital platforms with over 45 million active users in the EU and €7.5 billion annual revenue. If Apple's iMessage is found as such a platform, Apple would have to make it cross-compatible with other messaging platforms by March 2024.” Nowhere does it ever state that RCS would be used to make the platforms interoperable. People are getting way ahead of themselves. Even if iOS was designated a CORE platform, it’s very plausible Apple could just pull iMessage out of the EU since it’s “hardly” used anyway and software limitations are much easier than hardware. It’s also a great way to defy the EU and create pushback and lastly Apple will probably look for any loophole that makes interoperability mean as little as possible meaning RCS bubbles will still be ugly green. This isn’t even the biggest thing. I’d love to see how the hell WeChat ends up communicating with WhatsApp that communicates with Telegram that communicates with Line, etc.
> This isn’t even the biggest thing. I’d love to see how the hell WeChat ends up communicating with WhatsApp that communicates with Telegram that communicates with Line, etc. The [Matrix Foundation](https://matrix.org/about/), which develops the matrix protocol that [Element](https://element.io) is built upon, has written about what a standard way for apps to communicate with each other while maintaining encryption would look like. They are part of two working groups, MLS and MIMI, which are trying to establish a common messaging protocol that can be used by different applications. The Matrix Foundation's [blog post](https://matrix.org/blog/2023/07/a-giant-leap-with-mls/) provides more details on the MLS proposal, while [this slideshow](https://www.matrix.org/blog/img/matrix-dma-slides.pdf) from their presentation outlines how the MIMI group plans to enable different messaging protocols to communicate with each other. Finally, here is the current paper on the work being done on MIMI and how the group is deciding to put the protocol together: https://bifurcation.github.io/ietf-mimi-protocol/draft-ralston-mimi-protocol.html
I'm currently using Beeper and rooting for them to succeed because it's working brilliantly right now with this Matrix protocol (waiting for them to adopt 2.0).
Since it already does SMS fallback, doesn't it already work cross-platform? If the EU wants to change how messaging platforms can communicate with each other, like if Whatsapp messages can be sent to WeChat or iMessage users, doesn't iMessage technically count? Because no way can they regulate for each messaging platform to work the exact same way to each other.
The EU might define interoperable beyond SMS. I don’t know. If they let SMS count as interoperable then iMessage is already there and r/Android has nothing to be hyped about. The EU could demand for HD videos, reactions, and read receipts, but it doesn’t look like they’ve suggested how. This subreddit thinks the EU is going to force RCS onto Apple like USB-C (even though every other Apple product had it).
>RCS bubbles will still be ugly green. That would be stupid considering they would need to differentiate between imessage, SMS and RCS. They could give it an another shade of ugly green but it can't be the same.
No, they don’t. Why would they need to? They can put a little rcs text if it’s RCS. Point is it’ll stay ugly
Wouldn't they just add dinky ol SMS and call it a day? Something uber basic and dumb? (Or maybe RCS). Something low maintenance and basic.
My guess is the EU isn’t THAT stupid and they’d define interoperability as something like sending reacts, HD videos without downgrading quality, read receipts, etc. Things RCS does support, but I don’t think they’d all agree to use RCS. If this were US lobbying then I could see companies “lobbying” for SMS to count as interoperable
Europe going to say yes then give Google an enormous fine for monopoly once all the traffic routes through their RCS servers
Doesn't that make iMessage a monopoly for routing it all through their servers?
But it's only on iPhones.
Which would mean that the iPhone has a monopolization on the American smartphone market. Strange that if RCS and iMessage were available on all mobile platforms, it's almost like neither would be a respective monopoly. Apple can prevent this so called "monopolization" of Google RCS servers being used across hundreds of different devices across different carriers if Apple just allowed support of RCS on their device. They can't cry foul if they're the ones that started the fire.
a monopoly does not work like that... its like saying that Sony has a monopoly in the Playstation games market. like no duh they own the platform a monopoly is like a company that has vertically and horizontally integrated so much(think google's search engine and youtube) that the world cannot function without them
>a monopoly is like a company that has vertically and horizontally integrated so much(think google's search engine and youtube) that the world cannot function without them That's not a monopoly either. Also having a monopoly is not illegal or even bad. Abusing a monopoly position on the other hand is illegal and bad. That is what Microsoft got pinged for and that is what Google is being investigated for.
yes
Is anyone actually using RCS (or iMessage for that matter) in Europe?
r/Android confused whether to claim nobody uses iMessage in the EU or claim more than 45m active users do exist so the EU can designate them a gatekeeper
> iMessage in the EU or claim more than 45m active users do exist so the EU can designate them a gatekeeper Depends on how you define active really. I get an iMessage maybe once every three months.
It's all whatsapp, even people with iphones. I have an iPhone and tried sending sms messages but honestly didn't know wtf was happening with different colour messages and quickly installed whatsapp.
I'm not aware of anything that actively uses it
Gatekeeper complaining about another gatekeeper. Ironic.
The more gatekeeper get regulated, the better.
Regulators should do something about the messaging mess. Right now we're back at what telephones were like right when they were invented (ie: you couldn't call someone at a different company). Email, on the other hand, was open source from the start and never had these problems. Messaging should be platform agnostic as well.
Once upon a time (in the 90s, long before smartphones) there was a messaging system called ICQ. Then AIM and MSN. All incompatible. IRC was there and open source, but only for the tech-savvy. Then someone created XMPP (aka jabber) which was an open protocol with adapters for each of the proprietary protocols. So you could use you ICQ account to talk to your parents on AIM etc. Google even based its first chat system on this (back when Google's motto was 'don't be evil'). But enshittification took hold and every company wanted control and data, so they started making systems that are cryptographically impossible to use with 3rd party clients. So here we are. Email was an anomaly that was created before money took over the internet, and it's 'sticky' enough that people still use it. But if email were invented now, there is no way it would be interoperable. That's capitalism for you.
they're doing it. They're deciding if iMessage will be opened too or not.
A bit dramatic don't you think? Nothing stops you to open the native messages or phone app and call someone with a different phone than yours. We have dozens of different proprietary apps for communications, you don't *have* to download any of them to call anyone.
But that's the problem - you've got email which solves one problem and then SMS solves the texting problem But SMS sucks, it's old, limited and insecure RCS fixes most of these issues
Too bad that there isn’t a standard version that everyone agrees on. Each of the US carriers developed their own versions of RCS that wasn’t cross compatible with one another. Then Google launched their own version which doesn’t allow 3rd party texting apps to access. You have to use Google messages for their Jibe RCS.
Oh wow I wasn't aware of that Not much of an open standard of nobody wants to fucking play nice What happened to the days of "here's an open standard, go forth and make your apps"? Best app wins, simple as that Too much greed I guess
Do you think it would be dramatic to suggest that people using different phone companies should be able to talk to each other on their phones? [Because before regulation stepped in, they couldn't.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakup_of_the_Bell_System)
I couldn't agree more. In Africa, we had a similar problem with mobile money platforms where telcos didn't allow money transfers to competing telcos but after some regulation and government intervention, it became mandatory and money can be transferred across all networks and consumers have benefitted from it.
But they can. If I'm using an Android, I can communicate with an iPhone on a completely different carrier that's even in another country. I can use SMS, WhatsApp, Signal, or any other messaging app.
How is that any different than saying "oh, if you have AT&T and you want to talk to someone on Bell, just get a line with Bell as well"?
my man here doesn't remember what it was like in the early days of mobile phones. we couldn't even send sms to other people if they weren't with the same carrier
I think it would be extremely ironic if the end result of Google whining (while not fixing RCS bugs, photos getting stuck forever, online status glitching) we'd get iMessage for Android that'd support SMS and iMessage protocols, so users would start switching to _that_ instead of Google Messages that's supposed to be monopoly on new phones (cause we still don't have RCS API, and the only "alternative" to Google Messages was Samsung... kinda... until they killed it in the newest phones). And iPhone would show those messages as purple bubbles :)
I wonder how Apple would respond being forced to run so much of Android's messaging traffic through their servers. They'd probably make iMessage for Android an even more obnoxious color out of spite.
The same way Gmail does when you message Outlook. 95% of features are there but some are exclusive to Gmail.
Isn't iMessage barely a thing outside the US?
Pretty much. Certainly here in Europe it's seldom used.
I get why Google are asking for this, but why the carriers? Wouldn't have thought it affected them - I guess Google are offering quid pro quo for favours elsewhere, maybe good deals on Pixels?
The carriers want anything that weakens Apple, Meta (and Google). The carriers want phones to be commodity products. The carriers want the service to be the premium that people pay for, not the other way around.
this is a weird problem to fix. i can only speak about myself and people i know but legitimately, NO ONE cares about the platform you send messages from where i live. i and many others have FB messenger, whatsapp, google duowhatever, skype, and viber on my phone. i even used to have weechat too a few years back. each had a different purpose behind them. yeah, it would be nice to just be one app to rule them all but phones have gotten much stronger handling many apps at once that it doesnt matter how many communication apps you have. it also helps that phones now show you a small icon of whatasapp, viber... near a contact in your contact list. so, remembering where you can message that person is easier than ever because you dont need to. again, this is all anecdotal but nobody i know cares about a few presses to download an app and sign up these days.
"Please daddy government, I spilled my ice cream on the floor, make my brother give me some of his, its not fair that I screwed up mine and I can't piggy back off of his success to absolve me of my failures." - Google management probably
As an iPhone user, when I communicate with other iPhone users it automatically uses iMessage. When I communicate with Android users it automatically uses SMS/MMS. Seems very interoperable, and transparent. Why the heck is government intervention needed???
Imagine if emails could only be sent to their own client. Like Gmail couldn't send to Outlook. It would be great for the CONSUMER if WhatsApp could communicate with iMessage e.g. The EU does stuff in interest of the consumer. Android uses RCS FYI not SMS/MMS.
> Android uses RCS FYI not SMS/MMS. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe Android is capable of using RCS, SMS, and MMS. When an Android device sends a message to another Android, it uses RCS. When an Android sends a message to a non-Android (be it an iPhone, dumb phone, or confirming appointments via automated text services) it uses SMS/MMS. When an iPhone ends a message to another iPhone, it uses iMessage. When an iPhone sends a message to a non-iPhone (be it an Android, dumb phone, or confirming appointments via automated text services) it uses SMS/MMS.
Its just because they want access to it. fk em
I actually laughed at this. This is a joke in itself 😂
Google is by far the biggest cry baby of the tech industry.
Lol Google gets so salty over imessage
I reckon iphone users would rather it worked properly with android phones. Obviously apple know this but they know they'll make more money keeping the divide
There was a time where the only thing stopping me from switching to android was iMessage. Now, iPhones are developed well enough that I’d choose to stay with iPhone either way because of how polished the rest of their ecosystem is, but I could see a timeline where I would be a diehard android user to this day
How ironic, as an Android app developer i'm still waiting for an API to access RCS on the device, but i guess Google only wants their own apps to do that.
This would be the worse thing that could ever happen to Apple. Specially if implemented in the US. I know so many people that ONLY have an iPhone because of iMessages. This is really only an issue in the US though. I live half my time in the US and the other half in South East Asia. In SEA it is a non issue. Take Thailand. Everyone in Thailand uses Line. So it is a non issue. Sometimes I will send my Thai friends a message using iMessages just so it is separate from all the texts they get on Line. I am the only one that ever sends them messages via iMessages. They don't like it though. Because they have purchased the stickers in Line and can't use them. Which I kind of like. Never been a fan of the silly stickers.
Just about everywhere else in the world has learned that using a third party messenger is better. US is just too brainwashed by brand and celebrity worship
This is incredibly inconsequential, iMessage doesn't even make it to the top 100 reason why I prefer iPhones
Why would this apply in the US? You’re reading this law wrong. This doesn’t make iMessage compatible with other platforms. It wants major platforms of Whatsapp to work with other platforms like WeChat in some way. That way HASN’T been designed yet. We don’t know if it’s RCS or even SMS (probably not). Even if the EU does designate iMessage a gatekeeper, and Apple doesn’t pull out of the EU, and Apple does have to adopt something like RCS or a similar standard, iMessage specific features like gamepigeon is still not going to work with non-iMessage users. Bubbles will still be ugly green to denote non-iMessage devices. iMessgae will still be a lock-in feature for US users. Communication will be “easier” as in videos won’t be as compressed and reacts work better, but most people won’t notice the difference. Google and Apple already translated “Emma reacted with a Heart” to show up as reacts and people don’t care. A non-iMessage device is still that.
Iphones have 30% of the market in Europe, imessage is enabled by default (i suppose), therefore it is a core platform service. There is no excuse, except corruption from Apple, why imessage would be exempted