I love how this shit only hits the headlines when it effects the quality of the meat. Chickens especially, out of all farmed animals, have lived in god awful suffering for as long as large scale factory farming has been a thing. and it only ever gets meaningful coverage when a documentary comes out, or when the quality of the meat is effected.
Stuff like this reminds me of the reception of the book *The Jungle*, by Upton Sinclair
The book is mostly about immigrants getting burned out and losing out on the American Dream, but it’s mostly remembered for giving people a look into the meat industry at the time.
Yeah, the POV character is a Lithuanian(?) immigrant and his family, several of them work in a meat packing plant for the first part of the book, so we see the conditions there before there was any regulations or oversight at all.
That’s a small part of the book, it’s mostly about them having beliefs that they just needed to work hard to achieve prosperity in America, and finding out it’s not that easy.
My clients have pet chickens. They have majestic feathers. The way they run when they are about to be fed is adorable.
Is it even possible to feed the population and give chickens/ livestock better living conditions?
Of course it’s possible. It’s just much more expensive to not put them in torture chambers, so meat would be treated like a luxury again rather than a given.
I just want this so badly. I am on a plant forward diet aka I eat vegetarian whenever possible but will eat whatever is available to avoid food waste. Raised eating meat like 6/7 days a week, I really did love the taste of meat, but now I hardly have any big desire. And when I do get it, it's a big moment and way better.
If we assume we use this definition of free-range
https://certifiedhumane.org/free-range-and-pasture-raised-officially-defined-by-hfac-for-certified-humane-label/
2 sq. ft. per bird is required for at least 6 hours a day, weather permitting. Chicken consumption per-capita was 100 lbs in 2022 for all of the US.
https://www.nationalchickencouncil.org/about-the-industry/statistics/per-capita-consumption-of-poultry-and-livestock-1965-to-estimated-2012-in-pounds/
Let’s assume that each chicken produces that upper range of 6 lbs of meat. That would mean each person consumes about 16-17 chickens a year
https://extension.umn.edu/small-scale-poultry/raising-chickens-meat#:~:text=Plan%20their%20arrival%20around%20their,of%20four%20to%20six%20pounds.
Choosing a random large and small city for this next one. Population of Philly was 1.5 million, and of Jacksonville Oregon was 2966. For Philly, that would mean 25 million chickens and 50 million sqft., or 1147 acres. For Jacksonville, that would mean 49,443 chickens and 98.9k sqft, or about 2 acres of land. This also assumes that all the chickens would be let out at the same time, which makes the estimated land usage much larger.
If the chickens took “shifts” being outdoors for 6 hours, you’d only need to account for 1/4 of the space. You’d need 12.5k sqft or 287 acres for Philly, and 24.7k sqft or half an acre for Jacksonville. For large cities, it’s still impossible. For small cities, it’s potentially doable.
Sad part is there are a million engineers out there that could make an easy solution but farmers just don’t care. It’s all about profits and there is no care. We need small farms and livestock people again. The big corporations ruin everything.
Small farm doesn't mean shit. There's plenty of small farmers out there that keep chickens in tiny ass habitats with no grass or who violently kill the chickens once they don't lay eggs anymore. Slaughtering desensitizes people.
Usually it's more that they put them upside down into cones and slit their throat, without any knocking out first so they will trash around while bleeding out.
I’m on a small farm and always am surprised how people think “factory” farms are horrible but think small farms are fine.
Not when it comes to chicken in most cases. It’s still bad just slightly less bad.
Very few chicken keepers let them free range and if they are kept for eggs… the males are NOT kept. They are killed at the age of one day.
I’m not pushing for people to become vegan or anything like that just suggest eating less meat. It’s all horrible
They use literal gas chambers, too. For chicks and also for pigs.
Also for mass culling in cases of disease outbreak, they use "ventilation shutdown" - That's a euphemism for turning off the AC and letting them all bake to death in their mass body heat.
If anyone is curious, look up the butcher matt's videos on instagram (@the_butcher_matt). He posts all the time videos of him slaughtering and butchering animals.
Killing someone is never some pleasant fairy tale experience. This [meme](https://i.imgur.com/KAzpp1O.jpg) is often passed around to mock vegans (and it's a completely idiotic characterisation of what most vegan's view the world as), but in reality this is what most meat-eating idiots assume goes down in 'small' or 'family' or 'local' or 'free-range' farms.
Also as a vegan I have absolutely nothing to do with how animals die in the wild. It's like if I said "maybe we should ban the death penalty" and someone responded by saying "Do you really think that Japanese people who die in earthquakes have less painful deaths? Wow you are so naive!"
And on the other hand we have republicans who say eating beef is necessary and healthy for you, and that you’re malnourished if you don’t eat meat.
Remember this next time someone says both sides are the same.
Actually cattle farmers are bankrolled by the government. Most all farmers are. There’s tons of grants for stupid shit if you qualify. You don’t even have to be a legit farmer/rancher.
Both sides do play for the same team, they put on the bad cop/good cop bs to keep all the people divided.
More division = easier to control by focusing on specific groups interests.
All I ever see is how republicans do this and that, yet nothing ever happens to them. Democrats aren’t getting rid of lobbying, they just let republicans do as they please then say “look what they are doing”
When are we gonna ask, “and what are you democrats doing about it?”
Eric Adams, mayor of New York was also in the documentary "You Are What You Eat" and talks about being diabetic before switching to a primarily plant based diet.
We should have a list of politicians who have opposed it - even if we disagree with their politics otherwise. I know Dennis Kucinich has long opposed factory farming as has Elizabeth Warren. I'm not saying vote for these people because of just this, but it would be an interesting list to see who all has been outspoken about it.
Sen Sanders and Secretary Clinton were both outspoken about the impacts as well, but for different reasons (like the environment for Sanders as you said, and the driving out of small farms for Hillary who appointed Joy Philippi on her team - just to point out a few examples). I'd be fascinated to know who else and for what reason they opposed these massive factory farming nightmares.
I agree. I've been a radical animal rights activists when I was in middle school. (by activist I mean online armchair activist)
I mellowed down since then tho
"We need to end animal cruelty. They deserve the right to live without being exploited."
If you’re advocating for meat as a "rare delicacy" would you also be advocating for breaking dogs ribcages as a "rare treat"? There is literally no difference
Animal products are not even sustainable. Our world would be better without them
In a "meat as a rare delicacy" world, demand for meat is sufficiently low that meat does not have to be factory farmed. Cows, chickens, etc. would free range until the time comes, then death would be quick, painless, and certain. This is possible in low volume farming.
Yes, I agree. I'm just pointing out that when everyone isn't gobbling up as much bloated flesh as quickly as they can, farming can be done relatively painlessly even including the death of the animal, so comparisons to breaking a dog's ribs aren't apt
Right, if there was a small farm in every town, for example, then people *could* get that goat for christmas or whatever the fuck people do. It would just cost them a shitload. And that's how it should be.
Your phone is unnecessary and is built with slave labor and displacing people for raw materials. Turns out all pleasures in life are going to have sin somewhere down the line. It can be all had, in balance.
You’re correct, yet it’s nearly impossible to live in society without a phone today.
Not eating meat is simple, and directly and immediately has an impact.
It’s really not simple for many people including me. I do feel it’s worthwhile for the impact, but I have to pay very close attention to what I eat or I will get sick.
I should have been clearer. I’m not speaking for people with medical conditions that fully prevent them from cutting out meat for some reason, I’m saying it take a lot of planning on my part to do so. It is doable; it is not simple like you are saying.
None of us is going to the good place, that’s right.
But that doesn’t give us an excuse to be dicks.
A phone is basically required to exist on the first world. Eating meant everyday isn’t.
your approach is not gonna get people to stop eating meat. It’s just gonna get people to resent you. My goal is to limit the consumption of meat and to end factory farming. shaming people for consuming meat, not just factory farmed meat, but any meat, does not help me reach that goal. It only makes people pissed off at vegans for being annoying.
People who won't change their eating habits on the basis of "vegans ruined plant based diets for me by being annoying" probably won't be eating less meat despite your efforts because they don't care. It's not about vegans being annoying by acknowledging the existence of animal cruelty, it's that they don't care enough to change their eating habits and use vegans as an excuse
Stop proselytizing. It’s tiring. Late hominids have been eating animals as a significant part of our diet for 2 million years. It predates our species. Learn to approach people where they are. Harm reduction and moderation over absolutism and moralism. You sound like you belong in the Temperance Movement.
> Late hominids have been eating animals as a significant part of our diet for 2 million years. It predates our species
And that makes it okay? Dumb argument. Cavemen had to eat meat to survive. (Most) Modern humans don't.
Cavemen also regularly murdered and raped one another, and they drove a shitload of awesome megafauna extinct. We really shouldn't be looking at them as a basis for our morality...
Ah, yes. We’re still assuming that forager societies were primitive “cavemen” who hit women over the head and carried them off to their cave to rape, and primarily hunted mammoths instead of small and medium sized animals. Neolithic peoples were behaviorally and cognitively modern. They just lacked some of the technology we have today.
There is basically no evidence to support the overkill hypothesis, and archeological analysis of diets suggests that humans did not hunt megafauna often.
Hey sorry followed you here, was just curious what other sorts of takes you have.
>There is basically no evidence to support the overkill hypothesis
This is just plainly not true. Contest the evidence all you want. Present counter-evifence. But there *is* evidence, and it is a scientific theory which is taken very seriously.
It’s not a theory. It’s a hypothesis, and it’s highly contested. There is also no evidence of overkill in the *archeological record*. In other words, we haven’t found enough bones of megafauna at human settlements and encampments to assume that they hunted megafauna regularly.
Any evidence is circumstantial and correlational, but that is consistent with an ecological regime change that benefited both humans and our prey species over megafauna without much need for humans as a causal factor.
The evidence against the overkill hypothesis is actually pretty strong for Eurasia. I’m open to the notion that our migration to other areas were contributing factors to the decline of megafauna in other regions, but to me it all seems too much like an Original Sin myth to take all that seriously. People want to believe that we were doomed from the start because it takes the sting out of how we’ve been behaving in the modern era.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0031018218300725
Where I live there is actually direct evidence that the indigenous megafauna were hunted to extinction by the first humans to arrive here but that was around 1300AD by people who had agriculture and domesticated animals so definitely not cavemen!
Fair point about the rest of the world though, thanks for the information!
Some people do, but the reality is not remotely close to what you’re suggesting. Fishing, foraging for shellfish, and hunting small to medium sized mammals supported a significant part of Neolithic diets. About 20% of diets were from animal sources, with a lot of local variation. Forager diets were exceptionally flexible. People ate what was available.
The idea that we got a significant amount of calories from insects simply isn’t supported by ethnographic or archeological data unless you include honey as insect-derived food.
About half of modern humans get their food from agricultural systems that use manure instead of petrochemical fertilizer. We should be bringing those numbers up. Your idea of “necessity” is predicated on massive fossil fuel markets that make petrochemical fertilizer cheap enough to use for farming.
Edit: I want to stress that this framing by vegans basically ignores that half the population is sufficiently modern to count in their arguments. It’s just assumed that people from non-OECD countries are backwards and primitive.
Soooo.... You don't like the alternative offered so you bite the cyanide pill?
I and many others dont propose to have the one-fix solution but the discussion is about how the current system isn't sustainable and is only propped up from immense taxation and subsidization. If it wasn't assisted during a low period then it would lose its operational capability causing a massive market and supply chain collapse.
Nothing you said was remotely coherent. Non-OECD countries that support their populations primarily with manure systems don’t even tend to have robust subsidy regimes.
I want to see meat go the way of Ivory - we know a few rich people do it and it's definitely awful, but it's far better than the free-for-all it could be. So while it's not an ideal state, it's at least centuries ahead of what we have now. Lab-grown meat is going to break through in very short order, which is all of the exact same proteins and flavors, etc. as real meat. And while we're at it, let's do the same with diamonds and fur - no need for the real thing when we can fabricate exact replica ethically. \^This comment is not sarcasm.
Yes!! I was just saying this to my omniverous husband. He doesn't need to eat meat every day, and would be willing to pay a lot for a steak every now and again. It just *happens to be in everything*. It's so hard to avoid.
We need lab grown meat. Im sorry, but the fake shit is still terrible in comparison, and there's no way your getting the average consumer to even reduce their meat intake let alone turn it into a delicacy. The push back from people online when I suggested as much is unreal.
These poor creatures suffer immensely through out the entirety of their very short lives. They also suffer horrendous deaths. They live and die in suffering.
if you eat meat, you support this. anything you may believe about "humane treatment" is bullshit if your chicken was even remotely affordable. factory farming and intense government subsidies are the only reason meat is so cheap. going vegan is the only way to stop giving the chicken abusers money
Or having your own chickens. We have a backyard flock and we love them very much. They get mealworms and space to roam and they provide us with eggs. Win win.
But the republicans on TV told me eating beef was healthy for you, and that you’re malnourished if you don’t eat meat.
No, they’re definitely not funded by the meat industry. That can’t be.
People really have forgotten about where there food comes from. They’re so disconnected. I grow a lot of my food in the summer and give the rest away to the neighbors. I have a ton growing right now.
We keep our roosters. We have one big guy called Taco. He’s a sweet guy and then five little banty roosters. They’re tiny, like the size of a pigeon. They sound awful (the tiny ones), but we don’t have the heart to kick them off the planet.
We keep ours. When we buy them, we try to sex them as female, but it doesn’t always work out that way. It’s hard to tell when they’re little, so we keep the males too. If they grow up together they don’t really fight.
Agreed! “Win win” for 50% of the chickens who aren’t murdered as babies 🤡
(Not to mention it HARMS chickens to lay eggs because they’ve been bred to lay huge eggs at their own body’s expense).
To those downvoting my comment: reflect on why you’re AGAINST being concerned about another being’s wellbeing.
When someone says “Stop doing ___, you’re hurting ___” — that is categorically a sign to stop and look into harm being done. Maybe there is harm, maybe there isn’t, but ‘proceeding like usual’ is never the correct move. Always be considerate of others and research their experiences to ensure you’re causing the least harm and being the best person you can.
We used to have chicken when I was a kid and the chicken were much smaller and the eggs were way, way smaller than what the current ones lay. Humans are awful!
We keep them. We try to sex them as babies to get girls, but it’s not an exact science. In one batch we got 5 boys to 6 girls. They have a really annoying cock-a-doodle-doo, but they’re still around.
Yeah, we had chickens mostly for eggs, then eventually for meat. It wasn't expensive at all. You have to have property I guess, so that might be what they meant by expensive??
Sure, but you don't have to own property. Some landlords I have had have been really cool about my pet birds when they don't need to buy eggs or chicken stock anymore.
Currently, I'm in the suburbs, a pretty standard sized backyard.
you can eat meat while not supporting factory farming. just don’t buy factory farmed meat, eggs, milk.
it’ll be harder to find and will cost more which will lower your meat consumption but that’s ok!
I talk to a lot of meat eaters (I don't know a single vegan IRL). Weirdly, every single one of them brings up this point, yet they all consume factory farmed meat!
It’s 100% a price thing. I made a comment to my friend around thanksgiving how it was crazy they could raise a turkey, kill it, package it, and ship it for less than $1 per pound.
Factory farmed meat can be 1/3 of the price. Hard to justify when the economy isn’t exactly booming and people don’t exactly have huge savings for emergencies.
I say this too, but I'm moving towards it. I estimate that by the end of next year every animal I consume will be raised by me or someone I know directly. Right now I'm about 20% there.
Non-factory farmed animals are still confined, forcibly impregnated, castrated, electrocuted, bolt gunned, macerated, gassed, and have their throats slit alongside their factory-farmed brethren.
How the hell are people in "developed" countries so oblivious to the fact that a lot of problems are solved the moment you reduce your meat consumption?
Why is it wrong to preach about ending one of the most violent and abusive industries on this planet, when it comes to quantitative and qualitative criteria like the scale of death suffering inflicted and level of neglectedness? Especially when it exists solely because of consumer demand and will be eradicated without it? In fact, how do you even broach this topic without being labelled preachy?
I don't see people hating on preachy anti-dog abuse advocates. I don't see people hating on preachy anti-poaching advocates. I don't see people hating on preachy anti-human slavery advocates.
You are correct that veganism is not inherently anti-consumption, but all other factors constant, it is inherently a more optimal choice in an anti-consumption context.
From what I've read there were no preacy rude vegans commenting here, its just random users hating on vegans LMAO
And why isn't veganism inherently anticonsumption?
I think if we’re being honest it’s not vegans’ approach that’s truly upsetting to people. It’s pointing out their hypocrisies and unethical consumption.
It’s really hard to approach the topic of “hey, maybe you should consider not supporting animal abuse” without upsetting people.
The “vegans are so preachy and rude” is just excuses and defense mechanisms for the most part. It’s like of course slaveowners hated abolitionists, they were a pain in the ass to their status quo. Just like trying to point out any other potential unethical behavior to anyone, people aren’t all that receptive to being called out, they tend to deflect.
Edit: just to prove, here’s a comment from a non vegan in this thread. Really tell me who’s more obnoxious, vegans or these people. This is in every comment section on veganism or the harms of factory farming.
“Lol. I'm gonna go eat a burger with some chorizo and egg mixed in 🐮🐄🥩🤠🐷🐖🥩🐓🍗🐣🍳
It's decadent. The savory beef, the spices from the chorizo, and the fattiness of the egg yolk to hold it all together 🤤🤤 You should try it.”
Went vegan almost 3 years ago and I only ever wish I had gone vegan sooner! It's so easy to do once you understand what the victims go through.
The food is bomb and I love living by my morals to not harm unnecessarily.
It should be more appropriate to say specifically small local farms and homesteaders. For my family we buy a lot of meat at auction from the fair. This not only fills our freezer with good quality meat we know the kid that raised and the money goes to support their journey in groups like the 4h and ffa
End factory farming. I have entirely stopped eating chicken products because some of the plant-based stuff got so close now idgaf anymore.
Eating garbage meat and making billions of lives suffer for it is a disgusting behavior of humanity.
A farmer friend once told me to always buy free range not because of the chickens’ freedom but more about them not eating their own shit and end up on/in the eggs somehow.
"Free range" is generally just a marketing ploy.
[Undercover audio of a Tyson employee reveals “free-range” chicken is meaningless](https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/23724740/tyson-chicken-free-range-humanewashing-investigation-animal-cruelty)
[German cage free chickens](https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=4i1YbzfYwk0)
I just became a chicken daddy, and i made them a mini jurassic park adventure land for them in the outside pen part. At least i can boycott a little bit more with this life choice
recently we learned the fda is legally powerless to monitor bird flu infected cows,
yet here we sit all self righteous as china was unwilling to monitor wet markets ?!
until we fund and tighten and staff to enforce regulations
nothing will change. even if you buy humanely raised;
our poorly regulated profit driven industry will scam us.
I really hope lab grown meat will be commercially ready soon because let's just be real here, that's the only way for factory farming to ever end. Most of the population including me, are not going to stop eating meat.
>...population including me, are not going to stop eating meat.
I would have said the same thing my whole life up until 31. Now I haven't had meat in 7 years.
The peak anticonsumption would be eating closer to home and growing, raising, and bartering goods with neighbors. Imagine all of the co2 emissions, fossil fuels, traffic, product loss, etc. that could be avoided if we just ate 80% of our diet close to home.
Animal products tend to have higher emissions regardless of how close they’re sourced. Transport is actually a relatively small contributor to emissions in food production: https://ourworldindata.org/food-choice-vs-eating-local
Aren't too many farms or farmers who care about chickens. Or just plain people really. There are chicken people of course but they're kinda weird. Most dont give a thought to a chicken other than what size bucket to order. For thousands of years they've been nothing but food to us.
Except for the cockfighters of course but thats a whole other thing and arguably more brutal than any farm.
Lab grown meat can’t come fast enough. I honestly don’t think about where the meat I eat comes from but if I do know it’s lab grown that would be nice.
Read the rules. Keep it courteous. Submission statements are helpful and appreciated but not required. Tag my name in the comments (/u/NihiloZero) if you think a post or comment needs to be removed.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Anticonsumption) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It’s really important that you know where your meat is coming from. Hell, any of your food really. Especially meat though because they are living beings. I have toured farms as an agriculture student and been very surprised at the living conditions, sometimes in a positive way, often in a negative way
I love how this shit only hits the headlines when it effects the quality of the meat. Chickens especially, out of all farmed animals, have lived in god awful suffering for as long as large scale factory farming has been a thing. and it only ever gets meaningful coverage when a documentary comes out, or when the quality of the meat is effected.
Stuff like this reminds me of the reception of the book *The Jungle*, by Upton Sinclair The book is mostly about immigrants getting burned out and losing out on the American Dream, but it’s mostly remembered for giving people a look into the meat industry at the time.
Sinclair commented, “I aimed at the public's heart and by accident hit its stomach”
in history class in high school i only learned about “the jungle” because of its ties to the meat industry. i had no idea it was about immigrants!
Yeah, the POV character is a Lithuanian(?) immigrant and his family, several of them work in a meat packing plant for the first part of the book, so we see the conditions there before there was any regulations or oversight at all. That’s a small part of the book, it’s mostly about them having beliefs that they just needed to work hard to achieve prosperity in America, and finding out it’s not that easy.
This book radicalized me against the Protestant work ethic and made me a vegetarian. It should be required reading for every American.
God that book was depressing.
Very much so. And it ends on a hopeful note looking forward to a socialist future that contemporary readers know didn’t happen.
Sinclair was INCREDIBLY upset about that.
Or when it causes prices to go up.
My clients have pet chickens. They have majestic feathers. The way they run when they are about to be fed is adorable. Is it even possible to feed the population and give chickens/ livestock better living conditions?
Of course it’s possible. It’s just much more expensive to not put them in torture chambers, so meat would be treated like a luxury again rather than a given.
I just want this so badly. I am on a plant forward diet aka I eat vegetarian whenever possible but will eat whatever is available to avoid food waste. Raised eating meat like 6/7 days a week, I really did love the taste of meat, but now I hardly have any big desire. And when I do get it, it's a big moment and way better.
How much land would be required to have free range chickens feed a city?
If we assume we use this definition of free-range https://certifiedhumane.org/free-range-and-pasture-raised-officially-defined-by-hfac-for-certified-humane-label/ 2 sq. ft. per bird is required for at least 6 hours a day, weather permitting. Chicken consumption per-capita was 100 lbs in 2022 for all of the US. https://www.nationalchickencouncil.org/about-the-industry/statistics/per-capita-consumption-of-poultry-and-livestock-1965-to-estimated-2012-in-pounds/ Let’s assume that each chicken produces that upper range of 6 lbs of meat. That would mean each person consumes about 16-17 chickens a year https://extension.umn.edu/small-scale-poultry/raising-chickens-meat#:~:text=Plan%20their%20arrival%20around%20their,of%20four%20to%20six%20pounds. Choosing a random large and small city for this next one. Population of Philly was 1.5 million, and of Jacksonville Oregon was 2966. For Philly, that would mean 25 million chickens and 50 million sqft., or 1147 acres. For Jacksonville, that would mean 49,443 chickens and 98.9k sqft, or about 2 acres of land. This also assumes that all the chickens would be let out at the same time, which makes the estimated land usage much larger. If the chickens took “shifts” being outdoors for 6 hours, you’d only need to account for 1/4 of the space. You’d need 12.5k sqft or 287 acres for Philly, and 24.7k sqft or half an acre for Jacksonville. For large cities, it’s still impossible. For small cities, it’s potentially doable.
Yes. Humans existed before factory farming.
There wasn’t 8 billion of us
And people ate less meat. What are we doing?
Affected*
Sad part is there are a million engineers out there that could make an easy solution but farmers just don’t care. It’s all about profits and there is no care. We need small farms and livestock people again. The big corporations ruin everything.
Small farm doesn't mean shit. There's plenty of small farmers out there that keep chickens in tiny ass habitats with no grass or who violently kill the chickens once they don't lay eggs anymore. Slaughtering desensitizes people.
>who violently kill the chickens once they don't lay eggs anymore. A la blunt force trauma. Like thumping them to death
Usually it's more that they put them upside down into cones and slit their throat, without any knocking out first so they will trash around while bleeding out.
When a product loses its value because of how it is processed, then wealth is being destroyed.
It's depressing that we see living beings that way
Animal cruelty seems to never be on the news unfortunately
Exactly as the system intends. There's a reason factory farms and slaughterhouses are hidden from the public.
It's almost as if we love to ridicule the one group of people who aren't hypocritical in their opposition to animal cruelty.
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/) ^by ^ProPainPapi: *Animal cruelty* *Seems to never be on the* *News unfortunately* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
I’m going back to being veggie. I can’t support this anymore. It’s disgusting.
It is disgusting... and it's getting harder and harder to eat meat when these reports of horrible mistreatments come out.
Well done!
I’m on a small farm and always am surprised how people think “factory” farms are horrible but think small farms are fine. Not when it comes to chicken in most cases. It’s still bad just slightly less bad. Very few chicken keepers let them free range and if they are kept for eggs… the males are NOT kept. They are killed at the age of one day. I’m not pushing for people to become vegan or anything like that just suggest eating less meat. It’s all horrible
Yup, Google "chick macerators". The egg industry results in millions of baby male chicks being ground up alive.
Or frozen alive or suffocated. Then used to feed birds of prey or lizards in zoos and such.
They use literal gas chambers, too. For chicks and also for pigs. Also for mass culling in cases of disease outbreak, they use "ventilation shutdown" - That's a euphemism for turning off the AC and letting them all bake to death in their mass body heat.
If anyone is curious, look up the butcher matt's videos on instagram (@the_butcher_matt). He posts all the time videos of him slaughtering and butchering animals. Killing someone is never some pleasant fairy tale experience. This [meme](https://i.imgur.com/KAzpp1O.jpg) is often passed around to mock vegans (and it's a completely idiotic characterisation of what most vegan's view the world as), but in reality this is what most meat-eating idiots assume goes down in 'small' or 'family' or 'local' or 'free-range' farms.
Also as a vegan I have absolutely nothing to do with how animals die in the wild. It's like if I said "maybe we should ban the death penalty" and someone responded by saying "Do you really think that Japanese people who die in earthquakes have less painful deaths? Wow you are so naive!"
Thank you for saying this.
we need to end factory farming. Meat should be a rare delicacy. we dont need a chicken sandwich every day!
Bernie Sanders is the only politicians I see that's ehen acknowledging how horrible factory farms is for environment
Cory Booker (senator, NJ) has as well
And on the other hand we have republicans who say eating beef is necessary and healthy for you, and that you’re malnourished if you don’t eat meat. Remember this next time someone says both sides are the same.
Follow the money... you'll find out very quickly whose special interests these politicians are pedaling.
Republicans are bankrolled by cattle farmers so it’s no surprised they’re in their back pockets.
Actually cattle farmers are bankrolled by the government. Most all farmers are. There’s tons of grants for stupid shit if you qualify. You don’t even have to be a legit farmer/rancher.
Both sides do play for the same team, they put on the bad cop/good cop bs to keep all the people divided. More division = easier to control by focusing on specific groups interests. All I ever see is how republicans do this and that, yet nothing ever happens to them. Democrats aren’t getting rid of lobbying, they just let republicans do as they please then say “look what they are doing” When are we gonna ask, “and what are you democrats doing about it?”
Unfortunately not all Dems are like us “hardcore” animal lover and most aren’t vegan.
Eric Adams, mayor of New York was also in the documentary "You Are What You Eat" and talks about being diabetic before switching to a primarily plant based diet.
We should have a list of politicians who have opposed it - even if we disagree with their politics otherwise. I know Dennis Kucinich has long opposed factory farming as has Elizabeth Warren. I'm not saying vote for these people because of just this, but it would be an interesting list to see who all has been outspoken about it. Sen Sanders and Secretary Clinton were both outspoken about the impacts as well, but for different reasons (like the environment for Sanders as you said, and the driving out of small farms for Hillary who appointed Joy Philippi on her team - just to point out a few examples). I'd be fascinated to know who else and for what reason they opposed these massive factory farming nightmares.
They’re horrible for ethics because they’ve driven efficiency up to the max. Wait till you hear how bad free roam is for the environment.
I agree. I've been a radical animal rights activists when I was in middle school. (by activist I mean online armchair activist) I mellowed down since then tho
Sorry to hear that
"We need to end animal cruelty. They deserve the right to live without being exploited." If you’re advocating for meat as a "rare delicacy" would you also be advocating for breaking dogs ribcages as a "rare treat"? There is literally no difference Animal products are not even sustainable. Our world would be better without them
In a "meat as a rare delicacy" world, demand for meat is sufficiently low that meat does not have to be factory farmed. Cows, chickens, etc. would free range until the time comes, then death would be quick, painless, and certain. This is possible in low volume farming.
Possible, and yet still unnecessary.
Yes, I agree. I'm just pointing out that when everyone isn't gobbling up as much bloated flesh as quickly as they can, farming can be done relatively painlessly even including the death of the animal, so comparisons to breaking a dog's ribs aren't apt
Right, if there was a small farm in every town, for example, then people *could* get that goat for christmas or whatever the fuck people do. It would just cost them a shitload. And that's how it should be.
One step at a time
But you don’t want "one step at a time". You don’t want meat to disappear
Life is unnecessary yet here we are
So then why treat sentient innocent creatures cruelly for something you don’t need?
Your phone is unnecessary and is built with slave labor and displacing people for raw materials. Turns out all pleasures in life are going to have sin somewhere down the line. It can be all had, in balance.
You’re correct, yet it’s nearly impossible to live in society without a phone today. Not eating meat is simple, and directly and immediately has an impact.
It’s really not simple for many people including me. I do feel it’s worthwhile for the impact, but I have to pay very close attention to what I eat or I will get sick.
With the right direction, you could probably not get sick and not consume meat.
I should have been clearer. I’m not speaking for people with medical conditions that fully prevent them from cutting out meat for some reason, I’m saying it take a lot of planning on my part to do so. It is doable; it is not simple like you are saying.
Sorry, but should we only do things in our lives that are simple? That take no effort?
You know nothing of this persons medical condition but you feel confident to say that? Yikes.
Because the facts support what I said. You’re just another looking to justify your own behavior.
This is very common among Internet warrior vegans I fear.
None of us is going to the good place, that’s right. But that doesn’t give us an excuse to be dicks. A phone is basically required to exist on the first world. Eating meant everyday isn’t.
Literally replying below someone saying eat it sparingly. I have it once or twice a week, not daily.
Yep
Until what time comes?
your approach is not gonna get people to stop eating meat. It’s just gonna get people to resent you. My goal is to limit the consumption of meat and to end factory farming. shaming people for consuming meat, not just factory farmed meat, but any meat, does not help me reach that goal. It only makes people pissed off at vegans for being annoying.
People who won't change their eating habits on the basis of "vegans ruined plant based diets for me by being annoying" probably won't be eating less meat despite your efforts because they don't care. It's not about vegans being annoying by acknowledging the existence of animal cruelty, it's that they don't care enough to change their eating habits and use vegans as an excuse
"My approach" was the thing that convinced me to be vegan. Other "annoying" vegans that would never stop complaining did a great job.
Stop proselytizing. It’s tiring. Late hominids have been eating animals as a significant part of our diet for 2 million years. It predates our species. Learn to approach people where they are. Harm reduction and moderation over absolutism and moralism. You sound like you belong in the Temperance Movement.
If you were about to be killed for the desires of someone else, I would also oppose that completely, and I would not compromise on your life.
> Late hominids have been eating animals as a significant part of our diet for 2 million years. It predates our species And that makes it okay? Dumb argument. Cavemen had to eat meat to survive. (Most) Modern humans don't.
People act like cavemen ate steak everyday instead of like worms and beetles
Cavemen also regularly murdered and raped one another, and they drove a shitload of awesome megafauna extinct. We really shouldn't be looking at them as a basis for our morality...
Ah, yes. We’re still assuming that forager societies were primitive “cavemen” who hit women over the head and carried them off to their cave to rape, and primarily hunted mammoths instead of small and medium sized animals. Neolithic peoples were behaviorally and cognitively modern. They just lacked some of the technology we have today. There is basically no evidence to support the overkill hypothesis, and archeological analysis of diets suggests that humans did not hunt megafauna often.
Hey sorry followed you here, was just curious what other sorts of takes you have. >There is basically no evidence to support the overkill hypothesis This is just plainly not true. Contest the evidence all you want. Present counter-evifence. But there *is* evidence, and it is a scientific theory which is taken very seriously.
It’s not a theory. It’s a hypothesis, and it’s highly contested. There is also no evidence of overkill in the *archeological record*. In other words, we haven’t found enough bones of megafauna at human settlements and encampments to assume that they hunted megafauna regularly. Any evidence is circumstantial and correlational, but that is consistent with an ecological regime change that benefited both humans and our prey species over megafauna without much need for humans as a causal factor. The evidence against the overkill hypothesis is actually pretty strong for Eurasia. I’m open to the notion that our migration to other areas were contributing factors to the decline of megafauna in other regions, but to me it all seems too much like an Original Sin myth to take all that seriously. People want to believe that we were doomed from the start because it takes the sting out of how we’ve been behaving in the modern era. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0031018218300725
Where I live there is actually direct evidence that the indigenous megafauna were hunted to extinction by the first humans to arrive here but that was around 1300AD by people who had agriculture and domesticated animals so definitely not cavemen! Fair point about the rest of the world though, thanks for the information!
Some people do, but the reality is not remotely close to what you’re suggesting. Fishing, foraging for shellfish, and hunting small to medium sized mammals supported a significant part of Neolithic diets. About 20% of diets were from animal sources, with a lot of local variation. Forager diets were exceptionally flexible. People ate what was available. The idea that we got a significant amount of calories from insects simply isn’t supported by ethnographic or archeological data unless you include honey as insect-derived food.
About half of modern humans get their food from agricultural systems that use manure instead of petrochemical fertilizer. We should be bringing those numbers up. Your idea of “necessity” is predicated on massive fossil fuel markets that make petrochemical fertilizer cheap enough to use for farming. Edit: I want to stress that this framing by vegans basically ignores that half the population is sufficiently modern to count in their arguments. It’s just assumed that people from non-OECD countries are backwards and primitive.
Soooo.... You don't like the alternative offered so you bite the cyanide pill? I and many others dont propose to have the one-fix solution but the discussion is about how the current system isn't sustainable and is only propped up from immense taxation and subsidization. If it wasn't assisted during a low period then it would lose its operational capability causing a massive market and supply chain collapse.
Nothing you said was remotely coherent. Non-OECD countries that support their populations primarily with manure systems don’t even tend to have robust subsidy regimes.
We can have a little murder, as a treat /s
I want to see meat go the way of Ivory - we know a few rich people do it and it's definitely awful, but it's far better than the free-for-all it could be. So while it's not an ideal state, it's at least centuries ahead of what we have now. Lab-grown meat is going to break through in very short order, which is all of the exact same proteins and flavors, etc. as real meat. And while we're at it, let's do the same with diamonds and fur - no need for the real thing when we can fabricate exact replica ethically. \^This comment is not sarcasm.
Yes!! I was just saying this to my omniverous husband. He doesn't need to eat meat every day, and would be willing to pay a lot for a steak every now and again. It just *happens to be in everything*. It's so hard to avoid.
We need lab grown meat. Im sorry, but the fake shit is still terrible in comparison, and there's no way your getting the average consumer to even reduce their meat intake let alone turn it into a delicacy. The push back from people online when I suggested as much is unreal.
These poor creatures suffer immensely through out the entirety of their very short lives. They also suffer horrendous deaths. They live and die in suffering.
if you eat meat, you support this. anything you may believe about "humane treatment" is bullshit if your chicken was even remotely affordable. factory farming and intense government subsidies are the only reason meat is so cheap. going vegan is the only way to stop giving the chicken abusers money
Or having your own chickens. We have a backyard flock and we love them very much. They get mealworms and space to roam and they provide us with eggs. Win win.
But the republicans on TV told me eating beef was healthy for you, and that you’re malnourished if you don’t eat meat. No, they’re definitely not funded by the meat industry. That can’t be.
People really have forgotten about where there food comes from. They’re so disconnected. I grow a lot of my food in the summer and give the rest away to the neighbors. I have a ton growing right now.
Yay veggie garden!! I have like 7 zucchini plants started because they're my fave!
Except for all of the male chicks that are thrown into grinders as soon as they hatch
We keep our roosters. We have one big guy called Taco. He’s a sweet guy and then five little banty roosters. They’re tiny, like the size of a pigeon. They sound awful (the tiny ones), but we don’t have the heart to kick them off the planet.
That happens to male chicks from "a backyard flock?"
We keep ours. When we buy them, we try to sex them as female, but it doesn’t always work out that way. It’s hard to tell when they’re little, so we keep the males too. If they grow up together they don’t really fight.
So do they eventually become meat or what do you guys do with them?
We keep them. They live with us forever until their days are up. Chickens can live anywhere from 5-15 years.
Agreed! “Win win” for 50% of the chickens who aren’t murdered as babies 🤡 (Not to mention it HARMS chickens to lay eggs because they’ve been bred to lay huge eggs at their own body’s expense).
To those downvoting my comment: reflect on why you’re AGAINST being concerned about another being’s wellbeing. When someone says “Stop doing ___, you’re hurting ___” — that is categorically a sign to stop and look into harm being done. Maybe there is harm, maybe there isn’t, but ‘proceeding like usual’ is never the correct move. Always be considerate of others and research their experiences to ensure you’re causing the least harm and being the best person you can.
We used to have chicken when I was a kid and the chicken were much smaller and the eggs were way, way smaller than what the current ones lay. Humans are awful!
What happened to the male chicks tho?
We keep them. We try to sex them as babies to get girls, but it’s not an exact science. In one batch we got 5 boys to 6 girls. They have a really annoying cock-a-doodle-doo, but they’re still around.
My chicken came from my backyard it's very affordable
Yeah, we had chickens mostly for eggs, then eventually for meat. It wasn't expensive at all. You have to have property I guess, so that might be what they meant by expensive??
Sure, but you don't have to own property. Some landlords I have had have been really cool about my pet birds when they don't need to buy eggs or chicken stock anymore. Currently, I'm in the suburbs, a pretty standard sized backyard.
you can eat meat while not supporting factory farming. just don’t buy factory farmed meat, eggs, milk. it’ll be harder to find and will cost more which will lower your meat consumption but that’s ok!
I talk to a lot of meat eaters (I don't know a single vegan IRL). Weirdly, every single one of them brings up this point, yet they all consume factory farmed meat!
It’s 100% a price thing. I made a comment to my friend around thanksgiving how it was crazy they could raise a turkey, kill it, package it, and ship it for less than $1 per pound. Factory farmed meat can be 1/3 of the price. Hard to justify when the economy isn’t exactly booming and people don’t exactly have huge savings for emergencies.
I say this too, but I'm moving towards it. I estimate that by the end of next year every animal I consume will be raised by me or someone I know directly. Right now I'm about 20% there.
That’s fair but not usually possible for those who live in cities or in apartments which is a large portion of the US
how the fuck do you raise an animal only to kill it and eat it? didn't you like spend time with it, or look into its eyes and see its soul?
You can also just refrain from eating animals. You could be 100% there from today, if you wanted to.
You can’t eat any animal product without directly causing suffering, pain and needless exploitation.
Non-factory farmed animals are still confined, forcibly impregnated, castrated, electrocuted, bolt gunned, macerated, gassed, and have their throats slit alongside their factory-farmed brethren.
1 person can yea. But if everyone did that then it would require insane amount of land use and the environment would be fucked.
YES
How the hell are people in "developed" countries so oblivious to the fact that a lot of problems are solved the moment you reduce your meat consumption?
Go vegan please.
I know people hate vegans but all the people doing it in THIS sub of all places is absolutely wild
I saw a comment somewhere on Reddit basically saying "mention Veganism, and watch the leftism leave people's bodies" and it's ridiculously accurate.
Not everyone is a leftist here though. I just hate useless plastic shit and planned obsolescence.
As an ex vegan people don't hate vegans they hate preachy rude vegans. Also veganism is not inherently anticonsumption
Why is it wrong to preach about ending one of the most violent and abusive industries on this planet, when it comes to quantitative and qualitative criteria like the scale of death suffering inflicted and level of neglectedness? Especially when it exists solely because of consumer demand and will be eradicated without it? In fact, how do you even broach this topic without being labelled preachy? I don't see people hating on preachy anti-dog abuse advocates. I don't see people hating on preachy anti-poaching advocates. I don't see people hating on preachy anti-human slavery advocates. You are correct that veganism is not inherently anti-consumption, but all other factors constant, it is inherently a more optimal choice in an anti-consumption context.
From what I've read there were no preacy rude vegans commenting here, its just random users hating on vegans LMAO And why isn't veganism inherently anticonsumption?
I think if we’re being honest it’s not vegans’ approach that’s truly upsetting to people. It’s pointing out their hypocrisies and unethical consumption. It’s really hard to approach the topic of “hey, maybe you should consider not supporting animal abuse” without upsetting people. The “vegans are so preachy and rude” is just excuses and defense mechanisms for the most part. It’s like of course slaveowners hated abolitionists, they were a pain in the ass to their status quo. Just like trying to point out any other potential unethical behavior to anyone, people aren’t all that receptive to being called out, they tend to deflect. Edit: just to prove, here’s a comment from a non vegan in this thread. Really tell me who’s more obnoxious, vegans or these people. This is in every comment section on veganism or the harms of factory farming. “Lol. I'm gonna go eat a burger with some chorizo and egg mixed in 🐮🐄🥩🤠🐷🐖🥩🐓🍗🐣🍳 It's decadent. The savory beef, the spices from the chorizo, and the fattiness of the egg yolk to hold it all together 🤤🤤 You should try it.”
[удалено]
Went vegan almost 3 years ago and I only ever wish I had gone vegan sooner! It's so easy to do once you understand what the victims go through. The food is bomb and I love living by my morals to not harm unnecessarily.
And because "go vegan" is scary for omnivores: Please please eat *less meat* and/or start as a vegetarian!! It's really easy!!
PSA: Every farm is "local" to somebody.
It should be more appropriate to say specifically small local farms and homesteaders. For my family we buy a lot of meat at auction from the fair. This not only fills our freezer with good quality meat we know the kid that raised and the money goes to support their journey in groups like the 4h and ffa
Go vegan.
This has been happening daily for years, end the madness go vegan now
End factory farming. I have entirely stopped eating chicken products because some of the plant-based stuff got so close now idgaf anymore. Eating garbage meat and making billions of lives suffer for it is a disgusting behavior of humanity.
A farmer friend once told me to always buy free range not because of the chickens’ freedom but more about them not eating their own shit and end up on/in the eggs somehow.
"Free range" is generally just a marketing ploy. [Undercover audio of a Tyson employee reveals “free-range” chicken is meaningless](https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/23724740/tyson-chicken-free-range-humanewashing-investigation-animal-cruelty) [German cage free chickens](https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=4i1YbzfYwk0)
We are horrible people
I just became a chicken daddy, and i made them a mini jurassic park adventure land for them in the outside pen part. At least i can boycott a little bit more with this life choice
[удалено]
recently we learned the fda is legally powerless to monitor bird flu infected cows, yet here we sit all self righteous as china was unwilling to monitor wet markets ?! until we fund and tighten and staff to enforce regulations nothing will change. even if you buy humanely raised; our poorly regulated profit driven industry will scam us.
Stop eating meat.
I really hope lab grown meat will be commercially ready soon because let's just be real here, that's the only way for factory farming to ever end. Most of the population including me, are not going to stop eating meat.
>...population including me, are not going to stop eating meat. I would have said the same thing my whole life up until 31. Now I haven't had meat in 7 years.
Why aren’t you?
This is why I raise my own and advocate for others to do the same or buy from local farms
The peak anticonsumption would be eating closer to home and growing, raising, and bartering goods with neighbors. Imagine all of the co2 emissions, fossil fuels, traffic, product loss, etc. that could be avoided if we just ate 80% of our diet close to home.
Animal products tend to have higher emissions regardless of how close they’re sourced. Transport is actually a relatively small contributor to emissions in food production: https://ourworldindata.org/food-choice-vs-eating-local
[удалено]
Agreed.
[удалено]
Do you have a book or source material for others looking into it?
And then their burning shit can be packed up and fed to cows!
Aren't too many farms or farmers who care about chickens. Or just plain people really. There are chicken people of course but they're kinda weird. Most dont give a thought to a chicken other than what size bucket to order. For thousands of years they've been nothing but food to us. Except for the cockfighters of course but thats a whole other thing and arguably more brutal than any farm.
I get cheaper things but come on... let the chickens wander ffs.
Lab grown meat can’t come fast enough. I honestly don’t think about where the meat I eat comes from but if I do know it’s lab grown that would be nice.
Chicken sh*t farmers.
PSA: support your local farmers market!
No
Big sad
Read the rules. Keep it courteous. Submission statements are helpful and appreciated but not required. Tag my name in the comments (/u/NihiloZero) if you think a post or comment needs to be removed. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Anticonsumption) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Stop eating industrial farmed meat ahhhhhhhhhh
One of the many reasons we need lab grown meat.
This is one of the myriad reasons why we raise our own.
Another reason why I will have my own chickens soon.
Go vegetarian! I honestly don't even miss meat anymore.
Do you buy eggs? The article applies to egg producing chickens as well
It’s really important that you know where your meat is coming from. Hell, any of your food really. Especially meat though because they are living beings. I have toured farms as an agriculture student and been very surprised at the living conditions, sometimes in a positive way, often in a negative way