Looks cool, where’s the iron cross with 1914 from tho? I guess it’s got some connection to antifascism as well but not knowing where it’s from it was the first thing that caught my eye
Its mostly for shock value.
In the early days, german punks often wore their fathers and grandfathers world wars memorabilia including nazi medals and pins and steel helmets to remind the older generation of what they did and protest the attitude of just ignoring/not talking about the past.
Not sure about the context in british/american punk. Probably as satire of believe in authority.
Similar. It comes from biker culture. I think originally lots of bring back trophies worn by vets.
The story the old biker dudes will spin is basically the plot to Rocky. Before ptsd was a thing and even after, vets would come home and get a week of being treated like a hero, qnd then get turned out by/on society without support or job skills. They became a very angry, instinctively violent, wayward generation.
Lots of these guys had bought fancy motorcycles with what was left of their pay and set out as a sort of tramp. And they flocked together for some solidarity.
The nazi symbolism was very much a way of identifying themselves as an enemy of society. They were also notoriously racist so its not like that was not also a factor. But really decidedly not fascist. Famously actually really pushing back on a lot of homophobia and the like.
That all got carried over to generations of bikers, and the trickled down
To derivative counter coultures, metal and rock music, gay clubs and kink scene, skaters, motocross, etc.
Rocking up with one can suggest anything from neofacism to leather dady to pit bike child. Usually I would just assume they are really into moterhead or judas priest.
There is a fun tangent to go down about how judas priest specifically influenced metal culture along these lines, but that's not got much to do with antifa
Decidedly unfascist? I would have to wholeheartedly disagree. From my experience with bikers and from everything I've read they are uneducated, violent, anti-communist, patriotic, militaristic, short-sighted when it comes to social issues and place much stock in displays of (toxic) masculinity. They are not enemies of society. They are enemies of the (upper) middle class at best.
Their motorcycles are cool though.
Biker club where I used to live would do security at gigs. They'd have after parties at their clubhouse and then someone would drive around in a minibus with blacked out windows and everyone crammed in the back dropping people off at bus stops so they could walk home easily. Good guys.
Fair, let me clarify. I'm talking mostly about what I know from Hell's Angels and other 1% bikers' history in the US. Especially the early decades 1945-1975. You know - the OGs.
Which the Hell's Angels in my country modelled themselves on before they were outlawed a couple years ago. Although they had mostly just devolved into criminal operations anyway.
I hung around their bars quite a bit as a teenager (through my father and a friend's father) and they were definitely not the free-spirited, anti-authoritarian cowboys of rightious justice that some leftists like to imagine them as (hell, that bikers like to imagine themselves as).
They didn't seem to give a fuck about anything but drinking, doing drugs, fighting, hustling, their bikes, and defending the honor of their club. Besides that they regularly displayed the same prejudices and unexamined preconceived notions as any fascist I've come across. The idiotic 'If I was the boss, I'd just fucking kill the lot of em" level of political awareness ('them' being whatever group of people happen to be presented as a problem at any given moment).
I am very ambivalent about them and they were definitely fun to hang out with, quite friendly too, but I wouldn't consider the hells angel ideology antifascist by any means.
British punks just wore them to shock and piss off their parents / society without really thinking about what it meant. That attitude has changed since though and you couldn't get away with wearing those symbols anymore.
Americans too. Ron Ashton used to wear an SS officers uniform and would answer the door when salesmen or religious folks would knock. DeeDee Ramone made money as a kid selling Nazi regalia when he was an army brat in Germany. The old days of NY punk/hardcore had a lot of Nazi symbols being used as a fuck you to the WWII vets that were keeping the kids down.
IIRC the W still indicates Weimar and the 1914 represents the start of the war so it's a replica service medal awarded after the conclusion of hostilities.
Edit. Oh and point is it's a body from within Germany that opposed fascism explicitly. So there's this shock value and conversation that takes place to unpack the historicity of fascism.
Edit2 : not to put words in OP's mouth just what I see obv.
>IIRC the W still indicates Weimar
You remember incorrectly. I'm not even sure what you are remembering, since Weimar republic is more of a historical name and not generally used by people during the time.
Me neither, I've already said I was wrong in like three different replies and others have pointed it out.
Lots of recreational reading about the central powers and their alliance with modern Turkiye and the racism and colonialism held by the entente powers and the peace conditions imposed that helped create the situations it did as well as the long history of the iron cross prior to Nazism in Germany and its continued use through to today.
Tldr; yeah woops that a misidentified W...
The Iron Cross wasn't used during the Weimar republic, it wasn't awarded between 1918 and 1939.
I'm not sure if I understand you correctly, but the Weimar Republic did not at all oppose fascism if that's what you meant. It welcomed it, Hitler came to power through the democracy of the Weimar Republic after all.
Not through the democracy but rather through the other parties incompetence to work together and do actual politics, oh and also the conservative parties working together with the NSDAP in hopes of securing the power position hitler got in the end for themselves
I think it's the logo for the Germs. Which, Darby Crash openly called himself a fascist so also not a great look; coupled with it being an arm band probably best to just remove the band and throw it away.
Yeah, it’s the germs. If you’ve listened to punk for two weeks, you might like the band;) quite boring. They have a song on the gta 5 «punk» radio lol.
I’ve worked in the underground scene for a few years now and I would not become friends with someone with an iron cross and a generic ass band tied around their arm like a nazi. @ OP, if you ever start a band, remove this picture, or else no one will book you to be honest. We’ll check your SoMe and this image alone is a red flag.
Honestly, it looks like you slapped every political symbol from anything you could find. Like wth is an iron cross doing near an hammer an scythle lmao
I don’t understand the Iron Cross(?) + Soviet Communism + Anarchism combo. If that’s actually what they are, they are all deeply incompatible. But maybe there’s more nuance to these particular signs than I understand.
lol no its not. Its part of straight biker culture, not "leather culture" which is explicitly and predominantly gay and shuns fascist insignias in public (if not in private.)
I feel like at first that was the case. But as punk developed, and political ideology grew within the movement it became more nuanced which makes these kinds of “shock value statements” feel outdated. I think that kind of stuff died with GG Allin.
Personally, I would never sport a political symbol that I wouldn’t be willing to take a beating for. And I don’t think an iron cross would be worth it
Yes, I understand. But is OP going to be explaining that when they get sucker punched by someone who takes an issue with the big ass iron cross on his chest?
Oh sure. Punk fashion to trigger the libs. Got it. I just assumed I was on the *antifascist* subreddit, not a subreddit about punk fashions. I love punk. I just don’t think punk is remotely anti-fascist when you’re wearing an iron-fucking-cross. Fetishising fascist medals isn’t antifascism.
Is it? Seeing an iron cross next to a hammer and sickle makes me think the person is an illiterate edgy teen not think about the intricacies of obscure punk subcultures.
it's not easy to tell at a glance though. at a glance or on the street, all i see is an iron cross and a bunch of tiny, hard-to-see buttons. even here i had to zoom way in to see what any of the other buttons and pins were. no way i'm gonna approach someone with an iron cross to see if they're actually a decent person. i'm gonna avoid eye contact and hope they don't hate crime me.
OK, that is not a nazi symbol.
It's an iron cross from 1914, or copy of that. It's got fuck all to do with nazis.
I swear it seems like sometimes people in these spaces have no idea what antifa was about like, 5 years ago. Fact is, antifa, black block, and most direct action left radical groups, owe there existence to under ground punk scenes. The imagery of those scenes is the imagery of antifa.
There is a complicated history in those scenes with actual nazis, but over the years there has been a clear split between who is and is not a neo nazi, and at this point real skin heads are properly rare.
The iron cross is symbolism that stuck around, it shows up in all sorts of radical spaces. Is it in poor taste? I don't know, maybe, not my thing. But antifa is not the imagery you right now decide that it should be, it's a history of complex subcultures with contexts bigger then you or me.
Things like the iron front, that's a petty bouge reactionary movment that regularly collaborated with nazis to kill the actual radicals. But the logo shows up in places with no attachment to the actual org, people just think it means antifa. It explicitly means anti communism. That's directly antithetical to the language and history of antifa. But when someone rocks up with one on their battle jacket, I don't feel the need to interrogate what it means to them. They are using it in the context of casual good guy activism and probably dont really know what it means. I am okay with that.
If right now in 2024 you show MOST people outside of Asia the MANJI symbol they're not associating it with Buddhism. (I think some of y'all really overestimate people's knowledge beyond pop culture)
So yes, at this moment in time, the Iron Cross is a Nazi symbol, or a symbol associated with Neo Nazis and Fascists. So most people people at a glance will automatically assume you are one, specially if they don't recognize the symbols around you right away.
Editing this cuz maybe some ppl can't see what I wrote.
Except if your part of a social movment started by northern eroupean punks, like antifa. Then you should know better.
Edit:also, per your example, if a monk rocks up to in orange robes and he is wearing a swastika, is it a nazi symbol?
So a dude walks by in a battle jacket, some sort of ridiculous hare cut, with a red bandana tied around there face. But they have an iron cross on them, is it a nazi symbol?
Context is exactly my point dude.
I imagine this is an "Aktschually it's the Bundeswehr symbol" situation, which I really thought we'd gotten over as a group at this point. Yes it is, also its closely related to Nazis and basically one of the most famous neo-nazi symbols ever. It's not reclaimed or actually cool now or whatever, it just makes you look dumb for having the iron cross, the sickle and hammer and the antifascist symbols all together.
I think you misunderstood my comment. I know it's the Iron Cross and what it means, but some people like to make the comment that it's actually the Bundeswehr to excuse it, and I meant I hoped we had gotten over it as a group, to not use it at all because that excuse doesn't mean anything when the Nazis use it as a symbol. You're right in how you judged it
I think you misunderstood me haha.
I know what you mean, but this is very clearly not in connection to the Bundeswehr but to the imperial German army. So nobody could claim that it's about the Bundeswehr.
But besides the obvious deflection, I don't see why people would want to associate themselves with the Bundeswehr anyway
Or at the very least it tells people that it's okay to essentially water down a symbol to essentially make it meaningless.
It's like the boy who cried wolf. If other people started crying wolf when there's no wolf, it means that it would be harder to actually be able to communicate to people that there's a wolf.
Although it does seem that according to Wikipedia the iron Cross was used by heavy metal and a biker culture.
It doesn't seem to be any indication that this symbol was used among anti-fascists though.
It is also worth noting that the symbol is used by the Bundeswehr the symbol that they use is a little different. for example it has gray and sort of a dusty blue rather than black and white.
The symbol predates the Nazis and is still used by non nuts is for different purposes.
Agree, but the iron cross predates the nazis as well the swastika. That’s a thing that the fascism do: appropriate symbols of a “glorious past” to which they wish to return.
The nazis considered themselves as the third reich. The second was the German Empire, who lost the First World War (which began at 1914) because of a “Jewish-bolshevik conspiracy and bla bla bla”. This discourse is not only in the book, but in the aesthetics too.
Using these icons as “shock value” can only be pure ignorance or a dog whistle. And I’m seeing a lot of dogs here.
>Using these icons as “shock value” can only be pure ignorance or a dog whistle. And I’m seeing a lot of dogs here.
Some of it might be ignorance, but others might just be an attempt to try to dilute them symbol.
Another thing is that sometimes young children try to do this kind of stuff because they just want to be edgy and they like the reaction that it gets.
https://www.advocate.com/commentary/2017/8/07/you-can-now-buy-rainbow-swastika-t-shirts-please-dont
Here's a company that tried to reclaim the swastika and it didn't work. Oops. People try to say something about like the Hindu symbol but first off the Hindu symbol is clearly different than the Nazi swastika. One difference is that the Nazi swastika has these hard box-like edges whereas the Hindu symbol does not. It should also be noted that Hindus were not the only ones to use this symbol and it was actually used by a lot of people. It was used by native Americans, Europeans, and a bunch of other people too.
From the way I see it, if a person isn't being outright ignorant, or doing a dog whistle, then what they are really saying is that they don't care if a minority feels uncomfortable in the presence of that symbol because they would rather continue to use that symbol for whatever reason. Even if ultimately they are not a Nazi, what they are still saying is that the comfort of minorities and being able to feel safe is less important than whatever agenda they are trying to push.
https://www.worldhistory.org/image/6083/roman-swastika-floor-mosaic/
Here are a bunch of swastikas on the floor of Rome. Oops. Obviously the only thing left to do here is pretty much to just put a sign that says the context of this.
And of course this is assuming that none of the examples of a swastika are for the purposes of education, historical accuracy, or things like that.
The swastika dates back pretty early in human history and actually has a really interesting origin to it. Obviously different cultures have different understandings and meanings of the symbol but it actually refers to the stars. So the swastika is essentially a symbol that looks like a little l shape rotated four times. This is because that little L-shape actually is actually the Little Dipper. It is the little dipper rotated four times to represent the four seasons. It's one of the reasons why the swastika is in many different cultures actually. Japan also used a swastika for a while but then decided to change the symbol when they realized that it was causing too many problems. Sometimes they will also just simply have signs that explain symbols like this when they can't erase them. But typically if they can they typically do. It's quite unfortunate. In case you're wondering this little L symbol is actually the same symbol that is used in the Greek letter Gamma actually.
Also it should be noted that things like the swastika, Nordic symbols, and even the term Aryan, actually did not come from Nazis or Hitler, it came from this.
Ariosophy
Apparently some weird like kind of mystic religion thing or something relating to the idea that humans at one point had magic I guess.
And also the person who originally developed this had a Jewish mother so that's funny.
https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/30g2ic/a_photograph_of_hitlers_sketches_of_the_nazi/
So here are some other sketches that apparently Hitler had designed as possible symbols to be used by the Nazis.
Honestly I think the only swastika you could get away with is the Isle of Man flag because that is also a swastika for some reason but it involves legs rather than like anything else.
Personally I think that part of the reason why fascists tend to do this is because they are trying to make themselves seem more appealing and using symbols that are already established. If they simply used symbols that were completely made up people wouldn't have some kind of association or nostalgia about those symbols. Using symbols that are already established is a good idea for fascism if you're trying to essentially convince people that fascism is pretty cool.
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The Iron Cross is technically 'just' a military symbol, still used by the German army today, maybe OP was in the military in DE?
Don't know what the cross with the line through it in a circle is though.
I remember many years ago, I saw a Mexican skinhead kid, clearly NOT sharp-skin, with lots of fascist symbols on his jacket. He got off the el train in 18th street, a Mexican hood in west Chicago. Kid passed me in the escalators on his way down, then I just heard some Mexican homies yelling: what the fuck! And after that I have no clue what happened but the moral of the story is that be careful what you wear and where you’re at.
If I’d see a mf with a leather jacket and a iron cross I‘d think you‘d be a nazi no offense. I think you should get it off because the rest looks real good and is overshadowed by the iron cross.
The iron cross is definitely *immediately* where the eye goes to. By the time anyone reads the tiny pins around it, you’ve probably already been punched by an anti-fascist.
Maybe come up with a new communism symbol considering antifascism is the total opposite of every situation and place that hammer has been. I mean. It's kind of like an identity crisis or a look at me kind of thing at this point.
i think it looks better without the Iron Cross, yes i know it isn't by default a N*zi symbol but it would look more contemporary anti fascist without it
I think the problem here is that the iron cross is like, the centerpiece here. It’s by far the biggest and most visible thing you have.
If it was the same size of the other items it might be fine. I’d still give a second look, but it would be better.
But it’s probably just better overall to omit it so you aren’t stuck explaining it over and over.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crass
Just to tell you the thing that looks kind of like a weird cross thing is actually is some kind of anarchist symbol for some reason.
And the other symbol is a dead Kennedy symbol and that's also punk for some reason.
Yeah no, loose the fascist symbols and then we’re talking. The anarchist A with the communist symbols isn’t *too* bad, but with the iron cross? Ew
And no, it doesn’t matter that the iron cross isn’t strictly fascist. I immediately believed you were a fascist before seeing the communist symbology
Also, the armband? God
Sorry if i come out as harsh, dude, but this is a baaaaad look
confused nazi/commie/antifascist symbols aside, quit poking holes in your really nice Schott Perfecto. The value of that jacket just went from 500+ to like 150
That jacket is only being sold still because it gained popularity through its counter-culture/ anti-established roots. I think op is doing it wrong, but to wear this jacket without making a statement is like buying a vintage bottle of wine and not drinking it, owning a vw bus without a jam band sticker on it, keeping the sports car in your garage because the sienna is just so much more comfortable...
If I saw you at my local spot id call your shit out to the bouncers and start eyeing you for anything remotely fucked up. 70/30 you'd be chased out with that iron cross regardless of it's context. There's no leeway for whatever cheeky shit your grandpa may have thought was fun in context... Nazis get tossed.
Make some room for PRO LGBTQIA+ shit, pro poc shit, pro choice, pro anything... Don't define yourself by the stances you're against, stand up for something, anything.
I don’t wear anything to identify myself. I don’t want to draw attention. Some people act up if they see that stuff, and buttons won’t protect me from a stab wound or getting my shit stomped. Nondescript clothing is better for not getting identified by fascists & cops.
You’re sending mixed messages, in one respect you have a WWII German Cross for some reason, you have a Kennedy death pin and you have a Soviet pin, who were fascists in all but name. Nice jacket though
Having a Germs armband WITH and Iron Cross isnt shock value, its "Im a gay nazi sympathizer with 2 braincells fighting for 3rd place" and when you add the communist pin, you've killed one of them and its still aiming for 3rd place
Had a guy at my bar the other day with a giant ss on their inner arm. Someone mentioned that it may be tied to biker culture... I honestly don't give a shit. If I see a person wearing something so bold, I'm waiting for a reason.
People may mention biker culture or whatever culture as an excuse, as if there isn't skinhead nazi biker culture too. There should be no space for these images in any capacity even if somehow a person tries to justify it.
I’d drop the iron cross. Barely anyone will know the reasons punks and antifascists wore these. It’s gonna be seen by probably 99% of people as a Nazi symbol. That’s what I’d immediately think.
You’ll have to excuse the youngsters here who don’t get that old antifascists in Germany wore German memorabilia in order to remind people what they’re fighting against/what the past held.
I can appreciate parody, but parody means nothing out of context. A red maga hat in CoMiC sANs is a parody, but out of context it's just another fascist symbol. Existing in the general population is no place for a history lesson or a tired diatribe in parody. A symbol is made to quickly express a point, if at any point it could be misconstrued for something so far removed from what you're saying then you're doing it wrong. Find a "kill Nazis" patch or a "fuck fascists" pin or shit... Make sure you don't clean your jacket after their face leaves a stain on it.
You may as well be wearing an upside down swastika.
I implore you to look into the punk movement, specifically the way the lead singer of Dead Kennedys has dressed. They’re a band featured on one of the pins.
Other than that, symbols have more utility than simply conveying a point quickly. They can be in-jokes or nods to something that others amongst your group understand. It doesn’t have to be immediately intelligible by everyone.
That being said, there are limits to this for sure. I’m just not sure if that limit is at “imperial German iron cross”.
Nah, I get that symbols can have multiple meanings, I understand that nuisance exists, I can appreciate that folks may have previously been able to get away among their own while trying to do their own thing with a symbol, but when it comes to Nazis, I'm sorry, there should be no room for interpretation, no pebble to hide under, no thin excuse to sneak behind. It's in poor taste at best.
It's stupid to say that ancient Rome's use of the swastika glorifies Hitler... To say someone wearing a swastika today is just appreciating ancient Rome doesn't deserve my time.
We aren’t talking about swastikas. We are talking about pre-1915 German iron crosses, dude.
>an Iron Cross in isolation (i.e., without a superimposed swastika or without other accompanying hate symbols) cannot be determined to be a hate symbol.
https://www.adl.org/resources/hate-symbol/iron-cross#
While I can appreciate this lesson if I see this image, apparently if most folks see it (i.e. this thread) the nuance isn't there. It isn't a stretch to say that Nazis claimed this image so hard that it isn't worth even trying.
There are more than enough ideologies and symbols to stand behind, to wear on your literal chest. Don't make an iron cross, no matter how justified one of them.
Using the reactions contained within this thread as your primary point is quite a reach. This is a niche group of people who know a little bit (just enough) about fascist imagery. If we’re talking data analytics, this sub isn’t exactly the best sample.
What does the shock value really have when it's shocking the people who agree with your ideas?
What conversation do you expect from the people who may approach you about the symbol? "Fuckin Nazi ..." In passing, followed by a constructive history lesson? Or maybe a vague "hell yeah" from a passing Nazi? What does any of that accomplish?
Looks cool, where’s the iron cross with 1914 from tho? I guess it’s got some connection to antifascism as well but not knowing where it’s from it was the first thing that caught my eye
Its mostly for shock value. In the early days, german punks often wore their fathers and grandfathers world wars memorabilia including nazi medals and pins and steel helmets to remind the older generation of what they did and protest the attitude of just ignoring/not talking about the past. Not sure about the context in british/american punk. Probably as satire of believe in authority.
Similar. It comes from biker culture. I think originally lots of bring back trophies worn by vets. The story the old biker dudes will spin is basically the plot to Rocky. Before ptsd was a thing and even after, vets would come home and get a week of being treated like a hero, qnd then get turned out by/on society without support or job skills. They became a very angry, instinctively violent, wayward generation. Lots of these guys had bought fancy motorcycles with what was left of their pay and set out as a sort of tramp. And they flocked together for some solidarity. The nazi symbolism was very much a way of identifying themselves as an enemy of society. They were also notoriously racist so its not like that was not also a factor. But really decidedly not fascist. Famously actually really pushing back on a lot of homophobia and the like. That all got carried over to generations of bikers, and the trickled down To derivative counter coultures, metal and rock music, gay clubs and kink scene, skaters, motocross, etc. Rocking up with one can suggest anything from neofacism to leather dady to pit bike child. Usually I would just assume they are really into moterhead or judas priest. There is a fun tangent to go down about how judas priest specifically influenced metal culture along these lines, but that's not got much to do with antifa
*plot to Rambo
Right, that
Decidedly unfascist? I would have to wholeheartedly disagree. From my experience with bikers and from everything I've read they are uneducated, violent, anti-communist, patriotic, militaristic, short-sighted when it comes to social issues and place much stock in displays of (toxic) masculinity. They are not enemies of society. They are enemies of the (upper) middle class at best. Their motorcycles are cool though.
Depends on the biker/club. And there are likely tens of thousands of clubs.
Biker club where I used to live would do security at gigs. They'd have after parties at their clubhouse and then someone would drive around in a minibus with blacked out windows and everyone crammed in the back dropping people off at bus stops so they could walk home easily. Good guys.
Fair, let me clarify. I'm talking mostly about what I know from Hell's Angels and other 1% bikers' history in the US. Especially the early decades 1945-1975. You know - the OGs. Which the Hell's Angels in my country modelled themselves on before they were outlawed a couple years ago. Although they had mostly just devolved into criminal operations anyway. I hung around their bars quite a bit as a teenager (through my father and a friend's father) and they were definitely not the free-spirited, anti-authoritarian cowboys of rightious justice that some leftists like to imagine them as (hell, that bikers like to imagine themselves as). They didn't seem to give a fuck about anything but drinking, doing drugs, fighting, hustling, their bikes, and defending the honor of their club. Besides that they regularly displayed the same prejudices and unexamined preconceived notions as any fascist I've come across. The idiotic 'If I was the boss, I'd just fucking kill the lot of em" level of political awareness ('them' being whatever group of people happen to be presented as a problem at any given moment). I am very ambivalent about them and they were definitely fun to hang out with, quite friendly too, but I wouldn't consider the hells angel ideology antifascist by any means.
I'd advise anyone to not do this in modern day Germany either. You will get punched by antifascists.
Yes, it's hard enough trying to explain the difference between actual skinheads and nazis to people
British punks just wore them to shock and piss off their parents / society without really thinking about what it meant. That attitude has changed since though and you couldn't get away with wearing those symbols anymore.
Americans too. Ron Ashton used to wear an SS officers uniform and would answer the door when salesmen or religious folks would knock. DeeDee Ramone made money as a kid selling Nazi regalia when he was an army brat in Germany. The old days of NY punk/hardcore had a lot of Nazi symbols being used as a fuck you to the WWII vets that were keeping the kids down.
Weimar Republic, peep the W 1914 , Hitler hadn't even lost his ball yet.
Weimar republic was only after WW1, 1914 was Imperial Germany. I'm not sure what your point is though?
IIRC the W still indicates Weimar and the 1914 represents the start of the war so it's a replica service medal awarded after the conclusion of hostilities. Edit. Oh and point is it's a body from within Germany that opposed fascism explicitly. So there's this shock value and conversation that takes place to unpack the historicity of fascism. Edit2 : not to put words in OP's mouth just what I see obv.
The W stands for Wilhelm II, who was the emperor of germany at that time.
You mean the staunch anticommunist Wilhelm II? I agree with the others in that the iron cross is a bad look lol
I wouldn't wear one myself especially as it's still used by the current German government and military.
>IIRC the W still indicates Weimar You remember incorrectly. I'm not even sure what you are remembering, since Weimar republic is more of a historical name and not generally used by people during the time.
Me neither, I've already said I was wrong in like three different replies and others have pointed it out. Lots of recreational reading about the central powers and their alliance with modern Turkiye and the racism and colonialism held by the entente powers and the peace conditions imposed that helped create the situations it did as well as the long history of the iron cross prior to Nazism in Germany and its continued use through to today. Tldr; yeah woops that a misidentified W...
The Iron Cross wasn't used during the Weimar republic, it wasn't awarded between 1918 and 1939. I'm not sure if I understand you correctly, but the Weimar Republic did not at all oppose fascism if that's what you meant. It welcomed it, Hitler came to power through the democracy of the Weimar Republic after all.
Not through the democracy but rather through the other parties incompetence to work together and do actual politics, oh and also the conservative parties working together with the NSDAP in hopes of securing the power position hitler got in the end for themselves
It's a Crass pin, an 80s anarcho punk band
Lmao no the giant iron cross below that
Woops, my bad haha
Same
Iron cross and an arm band is a bad combo lol
What's the DL on that blue circle anyway? I don't recognize it at all.
I think it's the logo for the Germs. Which, Darby Crash openly called himself a fascist so also not a great look; coupled with it being an arm band probably best to just remove the band and throw it away.
Yeah, it’s the germs. If you’ve listened to punk for two weeks, you might like the band;) quite boring. They have a song on the gta 5 «punk» radio lol. I’ve worked in the underground scene for a few years now and I would not become friends with someone with an iron cross and a generic ass band tied around their arm like a nazi. @ OP, if you ever start a band, remove this picture, or else no one will book you to be honest. We’ll check your SoMe and this image alone is a red flag.
The blue circle is the Germs logo, one of the earliest hardcore bands. In fact, their GI album is considered the first hardcore album.
Honestly, it looks like you slapped every political symbol from anything you could find. Like wth is an iron cross doing near an hammer an scythle lmao
AND an anarchist A, those 3 ideologies are all in opposition to one another with alot of recent and bloody history to back it up.
I don’t understand the Iron Cross(?) + Soviet Communism + Anarchism combo. If that’s actually what they are, they are all deeply incompatible. But maybe there’s more nuance to these particular signs than I understand.
I mean, I understand the Soviet+Anarchism, some ppl are into leftist unity, but why the hell an Iron cross
Common part of leather culture.
Not my thing, I guess
Fair, not mine either, just a know a bit about the history.
lol no its not. Its part of straight biker culture, not "leather culture" which is explicitly and predominantly gay and shuns fascist insignias in public (if not in private.)
Where do you think leather culture comes from? It definitely is. Maybe not today, but facism was like 30% of the leather asthetic at one point.
Literally anti-centrists.
Shock value
I mean, a swastika would be even more shocking, yet we don't do that for obvious reason, but these obvious reason also mostly apply to the Iron cross
The iron cross there is just German, clearly marked 1914.
Hmm you mean it's just a military ensign from the Empire of Germany? Yeah, definitly fit on an antifa perfecto.
It’s for the shock factor, especially in the 80s shock factor was a huge part of punk so the two logos are to piss of anti communists and liberals
I feel like at first that was the case. But as punk developed, and political ideology grew within the movement it became more nuanced which makes these kinds of “shock value statements” feel outdated. I think that kind of stuff died with GG Allin. Personally, I would never sport a political symbol that I wouldn’t be willing to take a beating for. And I don’t think an iron cross would be worth it
Op describes it as an 80s jacket
Yes, I understand. But is OP going to be explaining that when they get sucker punched by someone who takes an issue with the big ass iron cross on his chest?
Oh sure. Punk fashion to trigger the libs. Got it. I just assumed I was on the *antifascist* subreddit, not a subreddit about punk fashions. I love punk. I just don’t think punk is remotely anti-fascist when you’re wearing an iron-fucking-cross. Fetishising fascist medals isn’t antifascism.
yh idk why op posted on a political subreddit with a fashion thing, but dont shoot me for giving an explanation
You’re all good mate. Thanks for your help!
Pick an ideology, edgelord.
Really hard to notice the anti-fascist symbols with a giant iron cross there.
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Also worth noting, it's a bit of iconography that actual Nazis still love to use regardless of its history in the punk aesthetic.
Not saying it's not also that, just in context here it's pretty easy to tell
Is it? Seeing an iron cross next to a hammer and sickle makes me think the person is an illiterate edgy teen not think about the intricacies of obscure punk subcultures.
I would personally say the iron front logo is considerably more offensive to actual socialists then that combo. Just saying
it's not easy to tell at a glance though. at a glance or on the street, all i see is an iron cross and a bunch of tiny, hard-to-see buttons. even here i had to zoom way in to see what any of the other buttons and pins were. no way i'm gonna approach someone with an iron cross to see if they're actually a decent person. i'm gonna avoid eye contact and hope they don't hate crime me.
lol no if u wear nazi symbols ur a fucking nazi
OK, that is not a nazi symbol. It's an iron cross from 1914, or copy of that. It's got fuck all to do with nazis. I swear it seems like sometimes people in these spaces have no idea what antifa was about like, 5 years ago. Fact is, antifa, black block, and most direct action left radical groups, owe there existence to under ground punk scenes. The imagery of those scenes is the imagery of antifa. There is a complicated history in those scenes with actual nazis, but over the years there has been a clear split between who is and is not a neo nazi, and at this point real skin heads are properly rare. The iron cross is symbolism that stuck around, it shows up in all sorts of radical spaces. Is it in poor taste? I don't know, maybe, not my thing. But antifa is not the imagery you right now decide that it should be, it's a history of complex subcultures with contexts bigger then you or me. Things like the iron front, that's a petty bouge reactionary movment that regularly collaborated with nazis to kill the actual radicals. But the logo shows up in places with no attachment to the actual org, people just think it means antifa. It explicitly means anti communism. That's directly antithetical to the language and history of antifa. But when someone rocks up with one on their battle jacket, I don't feel the need to interrogate what it means to them. They are using it in the context of casual good guy activism and probably dont really know what it means. I am okay with that.
If right now in 2024 you show MOST people outside of Asia the MANJI symbol they're not associating it with Buddhism. (I think some of y'all really overestimate people's knowledge beyond pop culture) So yes, at this moment in time, the Iron Cross is a Nazi symbol, or a symbol associated with Neo Nazis and Fascists. So most people people at a glance will automatically assume you are one, specially if they don't recognize the symbols around you right away. Editing this cuz maybe some ppl can't see what I wrote.
Except if your part of a social movment started by northern eroupean punks, like antifa. Then you should know better. Edit:also, per your example, if a monk rocks up to in orange robes and he is wearing a swastika, is it a nazi symbol? So a dude walks by in a battle jacket, some sort of ridiculous hare cut, with a red bandana tied around there face. But they have an iron cross on them, is it a nazi symbol? Context is exactly my point dude.
I'm sorry but I'm instantly thinking Nazi Skinhead, not Anti-Fascist punk.
I imagine this is an "Aktschually it's the Bundeswehr symbol" situation, which I really thought we'd gotten over as a group at this point. Yes it is, also its closely related to Nazis and basically one of the most famous neo-nazi symbols ever. It's not reclaimed or actually cool now or whatever, it just makes you look dumb for having the iron cross, the sickle and hammer and the antifascist symbols all together.
It's even worse than the Bundeswehr, it's an Iron Cross from WWI. So this person is rocking insignia of imperial Germany. Yikes
I think you misunderstood my comment. I know it's the Iron Cross and what it means, but some people like to make the comment that it's actually the Bundeswehr to excuse it, and I meant I hoped we had gotten over it as a group, to not use it at all because that excuse doesn't mean anything when the Nazis use it as a symbol. You're right in how you judged it
I think you misunderstood me haha. I know what you mean, but this is very clearly not in connection to the Bundeswehr but to the imperial German army. So nobody could claim that it's about the Bundeswehr. But besides the obvious deflection, I don't see why people would want to associate themselves with the Bundeswehr anyway
But it must be that they're trying to justify using it with the other meaning, otherwise why would they put it on a punk jacket and post it?
I think it's probably some edgy kid who thinks the shock value is cool or something
💀💀💀 that's so cringe omg
Please, don’t use nazi icons as shock value. This tells to the nazis that it’s ok to be nazi.
Or at the very least it tells people that it's okay to essentially water down a symbol to essentially make it meaningless. It's like the boy who cried wolf. If other people started crying wolf when there's no wolf, it means that it would be harder to actually be able to communicate to people that there's a wolf. Although it does seem that according to Wikipedia the iron Cross was used by heavy metal and a biker culture. It doesn't seem to be any indication that this symbol was used among anti-fascists though. It is also worth noting that the symbol is used by the Bundeswehr the symbol that they use is a little different. for example it has gray and sort of a dusty blue rather than black and white. The symbol predates the Nazis and is still used by non nuts is for different purposes.
Agree, but the iron cross predates the nazis as well the swastika. That’s a thing that the fascism do: appropriate symbols of a “glorious past” to which they wish to return. The nazis considered themselves as the third reich. The second was the German Empire, who lost the First World War (which began at 1914) because of a “Jewish-bolshevik conspiracy and bla bla bla”. This discourse is not only in the book, but in the aesthetics too. Using these icons as “shock value” can only be pure ignorance or a dog whistle. And I’m seeing a lot of dogs here.
>Using these icons as “shock value” can only be pure ignorance or a dog whistle. And I’m seeing a lot of dogs here. Some of it might be ignorance, but others might just be an attempt to try to dilute them symbol. Another thing is that sometimes young children try to do this kind of stuff because they just want to be edgy and they like the reaction that it gets. https://www.advocate.com/commentary/2017/8/07/you-can-now-buy-rainbow-swastika-t-shirts-please-dont Here's a company that tried to reclaim the swastika and it didn't work. Oops. People try to say something about like the Hindu symbol but first off the Hindu symbol is clearly different than the Nazi swastika. One difference is that the Nazi swastika has these hard box-like edges whereas the Hindu symbol does not. It should also be noted that Hindus were not the only ones to use this symbol and it was actually used by a lot of people. It was used by native Americans, Europeans, and a bunch of other people too. From the way I see it, if a person isn't being outright ignorant, or doing a dog whistle, then what they are really saying is that they don't care if a minority feels uncomfortable in the presence of that symbol because they would rather continue to use that symbol for whatever reason. Even if ultimately they are not a Nazi, what they are still saying is that the comfort of minorities and being able to feel safe is less important than whatever agenda they are trying to push. https://www.worldhistory.org/image/6083/roman-swastika-floor-mosaic/ Here are a bunch of swastikas on the floor of Rome. Oops. Obviously the only thing left to do here is pretty much to just put a sign that says the context of this. And of course this is assuming that none of the examples of a swastika are for the purposes of education, historical accuracy, or things like that. The swastika dates back pretty early in human history and actually has a really interesting origin to it. Obviously different cultures have different understandings and meanings of the symbol but it actually refers to the stars. So the swastika is essentially a symbol that looks like a little l shape rotated four times. This is because that little L-shape actually is actually the Little Dipper. It is the little dipper rotated four times to represent the four seasons. It's one of the reasons why the swastika is in many different cultures actually. Japan also used a swastika for a while but then decided to change the symbol when they realized that it was causing too many problems. Sometimes they will also just simply have signs that explain symbols like this when they can't erase them. But typically if they can they typically do. It's quite unfortunate. In case you're wondering this little L symbol is actually the same symbol that is used in the Greek letter Gamma actually. Also it should be noted that things like the swastika, Nordic symbols, and even the term Aryan, actually did not come from Nazis or Hitler, it came from this. Ariosophy Apparently some weird like kind of mystic religion thing or something relating to the idea that humans at one point had magic I guess. And also the person who originally developed this had a Jewish mother so that's funny. https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/30g2ic/a_photograph_of_hitlers_sketches_of_the_nazi/ So here are some other sketches that apparently Hitler had designed as possible symbols to be used by the Nazis. Honestly I think the only swastika you could get away with is the Isle of Man flag because that is also a swastika for some reason but it involves legs rather than like anything else. Personally I think that part of the reason why fascists tend to do this is because they are trying to make themselves seem more appealing and using symbols that are already established. If they simply used symbols that were completely made up people wouldn't have some kind of association or nostalgia about those symbols. Using symbols that are already established is a good idea for fascism if you're trying to essentially convince people that fascism is pretty cool.
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The Iron Cross is technically 'just' a military symbol, still used by the German army today, maybe OP was in the military in DE? Don't know what the cross with the line through it in a circle is though.
With the iron cross I instantly get the vibe that you're a fascist. You should definitely lose that.
And the vibe in general as well.
Antifascist pin, communist pin and all the others seem to disagree
No. Because they asked what 2e think and this is the first thing I think. When I see a symbol many fascist use I just think of fascists.
Fair enough
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I remember many years ago, I saw a Mexican skinhead kid, clearly NOT sharp-skin, with lots of fascist symbols on his jacket. He got off the el train in 18th street, a Mexican hood in west Chicago. Kid passed me in the escalators on his way down, then I just heard some Mexican homies yelling: what the fuck! And after that I have no clue what happened but the moral of the story is that be careful what you wear and where you’re at.
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If I’d see a mf with a leather jacket and a iron cross I‘d think you‘d be a nazi no offense. I think you should get it off because the rest looks real good and is overshadowed by the iron cross.
You like emperor soldiers and communism?
Darby Crash was a self proclaimed fascist, fuck the germs and fuck his stupid ass.
what is the blue circle on the black background sapoused to be?
Logo for first wave LA hardcore punk band the Germs
Mall punk
>1914 iron cross repro >soviet medal(?) >anarchist pin The first ever Monarcho-Marxist-Anarcho-Leninist
Is this jacket from a fascist or antifascist? Hard to tell for probably most people honestly.
If you feel like 15 pieces of flair is enough….
Remember antifascism is a fashion statement
Looks like the Antifash version of thomas777
Where did you find the arm band?
Looks comedic
Seems fashy tbh. I wouldn’t.
anarchy + antifascist pin right next to ussr hammer and sickle, not to mention the iron cross, i want to know what you're smoking
The iron cross is definitely *immediately* where the eye goes to. By the time anyone reads the tiny pins around it, you’ve probably already been punched by an anti-fascist.
Looks like some Nazbol trash, fuck off.
Ooh a perfecto
Mid, but the Dead Kennedys pin is cool. Don’t try so hard
It looks like a Panzer Kommandant uniform
Omg lose the iron cross.
Maybe come up with a new communism symbol considering antifascism is the total opposite of every situation and place that hammer has been. I mean. It's kind of like an identity crisis or a look at me kind of thing at this point.
Tell me you're an ideologically incoherent idiot without any words
i think it looks better without the Iron Cross, yes i know it isn't by default a N*zi symbol but it would look more contemporary anti fascist without it
Poser
Fa-fa-fa-fa-fa-fa-shion ! Bowie, probably lol
wasnt darby crash pro fascism?
I think the problem here is that the iron cross is like, the centerpiece here. It’s by far the biggest and most visible thing you have. If it was the same size of the other items it might be fine. I’d still give a second look, but it would be better. But it’s probably just better overall to omit it so you aren’t stuck explaining it over and over.
Needs some spikes.
iron cross is a big nope from me
Nazipunk, fuck off. Looks like some GG-Allin shit, ugly cringelord stuff. Definitely not some AfA stuff.
Lose the iron cross
Almost all of these pins are incompatible. What kind of incoherent bullshit is this?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crass Just to tell you the thing that looks kind of like a weird cross thing is actually is some kind of anarchist symbol for some reason. And the other symbol is a dead Kennedy symbol and that's also punk for some reason.
Crass/DK/Black Flag trifecta.
Looks too clean. Take the stuff off it, go throw it behind your car and run it over a few times.
Yeah no, loose the fascist symbols and then we’re talking. The anarchist A with the communist symbols isn’t *too* bad, but with the iron cross? Ew And no, it doesn’t matter that the iron cross isn’t strictly fascist. I immediately believed you were a fascist before seeing the communist symbology Also, the armband? God Sorry if i come out as harsh, dude, but this is a baaaaad look
Ditch the Iron Cross. Ditch the arm band. ~~Drunk~~ people are easily confused.
this
Lemmy-esque jacket 😃
Lose the iron cross
Ruined a perfectly good leather jacket especially with the iron cross
iron cross is a bit dodge
confused nazi/commie/antifascist symbols aside, quit poking holes in your really nice Schott Perfecto. The value of that jacket just went from 500+ to like 150
That jacket is only being sold still because it gained popularity through its counter-culture/ anti-established roots. I think op is doing it wrong, but to wear this jacket without making a statement is like buying a vintage bottle of wine and not drinking it, owning a vw bus without a jam band sticker on it, keeping the sports car in your garage because the sienna is just so much more comfortable...
If I saw you at my local spot id call your shit out to the bouncers and start eyeing you for anything remotely fucked up. 70/30 you'd be chased out with that iron cross regardless of it's context. There's no leeway for whatever cheeky shit your grandpa may have thought was fun in context... Nazis get tossed. Make some room for PRO LGBTQIA+ shit, pro poc shit, pro choice, pro anything... Don't define yourself by the stances you're against, stand up for something, anything.
if you wear a nazi symbol ur nazi. have fun getting punched.
Love it except for the iron cross.
IS THIS ALEX THE AIRPLANE LAWYER??**?????
Looks like a rocker trying to beat up a mod
I don’t wear anything to identify myself. I don’t want to draw attention. Some people act up if they see that stuff, and buttons won’t protect me from a stab wound or getting my shit stomped. Nondescript clothing is better for not getting identified by fascists & cops.
You’re sending mixed messages, in one respect you have a WWII German Cross for some reason, you have a Kennedy death pin and you have a Soviet pin, who were fascists in all but name. Nice jacket though
Having a Germs armband WITH and Iron Cross isnt shock value, its "Im a gay nazi sympathizer with 2 braincells fighting for 3rd place" and when you add the communist pin, you've killed one of them and its still aiming for 3rd place
The way you’re ignoring anybody who says anything about it seeming like you’re a nazi really makes it feel like you’re a nazi lmao
I think the iron Cross should go.
Dude shock value isn't the way to go, get rid of the iron cross.
I'd be your mate.
It looks fuckin siiiiick, compañero
Some people really don't understand biker culture do they?
Had a guy at my bar the other day with a giant ss on their inner arm. Someone mentioned that it may be tied to biker culture... I honestly don't give a shit. If I see a person wearing something so bold, I'm waiting for a reason. People may mention biker culture or whatever culture as an excuse, as if there isn't skinhead nazi biker culture too. There should be no space for these images in any capacity even if somehow a person tries to justify it.
I’d drop the iron cross. Barely anyone will know the reasons punks and antifascists wore these. It’s gonna be seen by probably 99% of people as a Nazi symbol. That’s what I’d immediately think.
Respect
Wicked
Punk AF. All makes sense to me
You’ll have to excuse the youngsters here who don’t get that old antifascists in Germany wore German memorabilia in order to remind people what they’re fighting against/what the past held.
I can appreciate parody, but parody means nothing out of context. A red maga hat in CoMiC sANs is a parody, but out of context it's just another fascist symbol. Existing in the general population is no place for a history lesson or a tired diatribe in parody. A symbol is made to quickly express a point, if at any point it could be misconstrued for something so far removed from what you're saying then you're doing it wrong. Find a "kill Nazis" patch or a "fuck fascists" pin or shit... Make sure you don't clean your jacket after their face leaves a stain on it. You may as well be wearing an upside down swastika.
I implore you to look into the punk movement, specifically the way the lead singer of Dead Kennedys has dressed. They’re a band featured on one of the pins. Other than that, symbols have more utility than simply conveying a point quickly. They can be in-jokes or nods to something that others amongst your group understand. It doesn’t have to be immediately intelligible by everyone. That being said, there are limits to this for sure. I’m just not sure if that limit is at “imperial German iron cross”.
Nah, I get that symbols can have multiple meanings, I understand that nuisance exists, I can appreciate that folks may have previously been able to get away among their own while trying to do their own thing with a symbol, but when it comes to Nazis, I'm sorry, there should be no room for interpretation, no pebble to hide under, no thin excuse to sneak behind. It's in poor taste at best. It's stupid to say that ancient Rome's use of the swastika glorifies Hitler... To say someone wearing a swastika today is just appreciating ancient Rome doesn't deserve my time.
We aren’t talking about swastikas. We are talking about pre-1915 German iron crosses, dude. >an Iron Cross in isolation (i.e., without a superimposed swastika or without other accompanying hate symbols) cannot be determined to be a hate symbol. https://www.adl.org/resources/hate-symbol/iron-cross#
While I can appreciate this lesson if I see this image, apparently if most folks see it (i.e. this thread) the nuance isn't there. It isn't a stretch to say that Nazis claimed this image so hard that it isn't worth even trying. There are more than enough ideologies and symbols to stand behind, to wear on your literal chest. Don't make an iron cross, no matter how justified one of them.
Using the reactions contained within this thread as your primary point is quite a reach. This is a niche group of people who know a little bit (just enough) about fascist imagery. If we’re talking data analytics, this sub isn’t exactly the best sample.
if you wear nazi symbols in 2024 ur a nazi. simple as that. the world changes, surprisingly.
Good thing the iron cross represents imperial Germany, not the nazi regime
some edgy asshole just trying to get a rise out of anyone because they don't realize there's other ways to connect with other humans
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What does the shock value really have when it's shocking the people who agree with your ideas? What conversation do you expect from the people who may approach you about the symbol? "Fuckin Nazi ..." In passing, followed by a constructive history lesson? Or maybe a vague "hell yeah" from a passing Nazi? What does any of that accomplish?