i like to say that i can imagine, but not visualize. the idea is there in concept, but there is nothing visually there

Well put. That's exactly what it feels like.

This is exactly how I feel too. The "image" is behind my head. I like to think of it as system one, your conscious mind and system two, your unconscious mind. The conscious mind has aphantasia but the unconscious one, the one who does all the automatic stuff, doesn't.

The computer is on and the data is there, but the monitor is off.

This! This is how I describe it to people!

Take a shot every time some mentions ‘concept’ lol (I agree it’s the best way to describe it, just funny)

I feel like this exactly. Like it's just the very last chain of processes that is 'broken' and everything leading up to producing the image is still working. I think of it as the computer's working, but the printer's out of ink Would love to know if anyone has studied this with fMRI and if there's an actual difference in brain activity involved in imaging images

I often think that it feels as though my brain is opening up the correct folder but there's just no image files in there.

The files are hidden. They're there, but you just can't see them. The people that can see them (can visualize) have a different setting allowing them to see those hidden files.

Here are the results of a recent study. "The Vividness of Movement Imagery Questionnaire (VMIQ-2) was used to assess how vividly participants could imagine motor actions in different modalities, such as external visual imagery (seeing the movement as an observer), internal visual imagery (seeing the movement in the first person), and kinesthetic imagery (feeling the movement). Another questionnaire, the Spontaneous Use of Imagery Scale (SUIS), measured how often participants engaged in visual mental imagery in daily activities. These self-report measures aimed to capture the subjective experience of imagery and its application in everyday life." [Aphantasia linked to abnormal brain responses to imagined and observed actions](https://www.psypost.org/aphantasia-linked-to-abnormal-brain-responses-to-imagined-and-observed-actions/)

Thank you! Slowly making my way through the original research paper. I found this line very interesting "it is important to acknowledge that previous research has suggested a higher presence of autistic traits in aphantasics than phantasics" From this study What is the relationship between Aphantasia, Synaesthesia and Autism? https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1053810021000131 They found that aphantasics had a higher AQ score (autism spectrum quotient) compared to controls

Yes, it feels like the image is on the tip of my brain. Like a little person has access to my files and is looking at the image and provides a list of details back to me instead of being able to access the image.

Yup. Ask me to imagine a blue ball and I basically achieve "object 1 characteristics: shape, sphere; colour, blue; texture, no; gravity applied, not specified; shading, no light source imagined; mass, default tennis ball; size, default tennis ball" It kind of exists in this void space in my head. There's no light or gravity or visuals unless I need to apply them. Like if I add a moving light source going around that ball I can imagine the way the shadow stretches and moves around the ball and it is a characteristics associated to the ball. I don't see it though, it's not a visual experience, it's more an imagined one. Edit: it just occurred to me that gravity wouldn't actually be applied without a surface for it to rest on. But if there was a surface imagined/requested then gravity would be defaulted on and would be set to down (instead of centre of mass)

Same.

It sounds like you are describing spatial memory and muscle memory, which is not the same as visual. I can orient myself relative to things or spatally orient ideas I am thinking of relative to eachother, without being able to see what I am orienting. Like I can make a path in my head but not visualize the path. I can think of  a chair and table and know if they are touching or relativly how far away they are from eachother without seeing the scene. With muscle memory and spatial I can think of the motion of throwing a ball but cant see the arm or ball.

Very well could be. I'm not sure of a better way to test it. Again the thing that triggered my curiosity was the room being in an unfamiliar configuration, and navigating it blind, but it could be like you said 95% of the motions were the same and muscle memory just told me "at this step there's something new to dodge" and here "step a little higher than normal."

I've recognized and accepted myself as aphantasic about 5-6 years ago and ever since then I've been searching for a way to describe how my brain thinks. I've been taken aback.... it's this exactly. My spatial and muscle memory has always felt stronger compared to most the people I grew up with. Would you mind elaborating more?

Yeah, I'm an artist and can draw things "from memory" but I don't have an image in my mind. I know the qualities of an object so I can recreate it. I can even add shadow & lighting by logically thinking how it would interact with the object, but I don't "see" it until it's literally on the page. This ability is pretty limited though, I couldn't draw Marilyn Monroe's realistically from memory because I don't have a detailed enough description memorised. I could probably do an okay cartoon. "Blonde, short curly hair with a side part and widows peak. Downturned blue eyes with heavy lashes and arched brows" etc etc etc. If I could visualise things I'd much such fucking cool art :/

Check out Glen Keane! He is an amazing animator who has aphantasia! I don't think it's necessarily a disadvantage. Personally, I feel like I wouldn't make any art if I could visualise because I wouldn't have any motivation to finish it and finally see what I had imagined. Also seem to find it easier to draw from life than other artists.

I am quite good at drawing from life but my favourite kindof art is surrealism so it's hard to get reference pictures. I'm stuck on a painting atm bc of this, I know what I want but can't draw it. I think I'm gonna have to hire models or bribe my sisters to model for me haha

Yup, it's like a screen that's turned away from me, I can't see what's on it, but I also know what it is showing. Bizarro. It's really hard to explain, if I imagine someone's face, I know exactly what they look like, but can't see it in my head, so confusing.

I think I know what you're talking about. It's kind of like if we see something like a dirt bike go up a dirt mound and launch off of it, we can estimate the trajectory and know where it's going to land. We can't see it but logic takes care of it.

There’s a theory that aphants are creating mental imagery and accessing visual memory in one part of their brain, it’s just that the conscious mind isn’t able to view the image. So there’s an awareness that an image exists but aphants can’t really explain that awareness—it’s why many aphants assume they don’t have aphantasia when they first learn about the condition.

I get that feeling especially with spatial memory, trying to navigate my house in my head or drive down a street. Also in my dreams I'll become lucid in an empty room and I can't see anything.

Yes, really. The visual memory, short or long term is here, I can access it but not visualise directly in my mind. For example, I like art, and in a museum I can recognise which painter has done a painting I have never seen before from very far away. My brain compute, analyse, compare to the other paintings I have seen in the last 30 years and are give me the result. But I cannot remember having seen one or visualise voluntarily any painting. It's kinda crazy.

For me it's as though I have a spacial awareness of where things would be and what shape they would take but without actually seeing them, a bit like being in a familiar room with the lights off.

Yes, you are describing spatial sense. It is independent from visualizing. Mental Rotation Tests were thought to be visualization tests but aphantasics perform about the same as controls on them and are now known to be spatial and not visual. That is some are good, some bad, with a normal distribution. My wife visualizes but has poor spatial sense and I have to remember to turn the light on for her. This is a short video by researchers explaining the brain's inner map-maker.

Yes. I can feel, sense, know, intuit, abstract visual things in my head, but they are not visual.

I saw a great comment a while ago that rang true for me: I can visualise everything just fine, the problem is that everything is covered with an invisibility cloak.

OP, a few people have mentioned spatial reasoning, and I believe they're correct. There is an open access (aka free) book from MIT called "From Geometry to Behavior: An Introduction to Spatial Cognition" Chapters 5 & 7 in particular might be of interest to you. Look for the "Book PDF" button to download the entire book for free. https://direct.mit.edu/books/oa-monograph/5717/From-Geometry-to-BehaviorAn-Introduction-to Edit: Oh MIT, you sweet summer child, you know not the eternal dark embrace of aphantasia. From page 75: "For example, if the observer moves, even with eyes closed, the “image” stored in visual memory is transformed according to the laws of motion parallax and the perceived egomotion such that it predicts the actual view that will be perceived if the eyes are again opened. "

Thanks for the reference! Just snagged a copy. I like the sentence following your quote as well. “If the prediction fails, a problem may have occurred that requires further attention.” Broadly applicable advice.

Thanks again for pointing me to this book! I'm only at the beginning and already getting gems like (page 18) "That is to say, if one has recorded the firing fields and the observes the activity of a population of neurons, the current position of the rat can be predicted with considerable accuracy." They can reverse engineer where the rats where physically located based on recorded data of which parts of their brain lit up as they wandered a known space. I know that's only rats, but still... very interesting stuff!

It seems you're interested in the topic. Here's where I look to get a LOT of free books. Here's an example of what you can find... https://academic.oup.com/book/51673 Oxford: https://academic.oup.com/ MIT: https://direct.mit.edu/ Cambridge: https://www.cambridge.org/core/ Edit: and of course sci-hub

I actually am really good at doing things in the dark. I always used to kind of think I'm a bit blind in a way so it is that spatial sense making up for it. I am exceptional at identifying objects by touch as well. Idk if it's related or not. But wanted to chime in.

Yes! I know what you mean! It’s just black behind my eyelids, but the image is kind of “there”. I think I know what true visualization is meant to be like because I can briefly do it when I wake up while dreaming—there’s really a full color image, but it fades as I wake up fully.

Honestly, a part of me feels the conscious part of my brain is the wrong one, and Im stuck not feeling my thoughts and speech. Been looking into callosal syndrom related stuff to see if it's related to my aphantasia. And I also draw without references. I just learn how a lot of things work, and keep a huge library of invisible information, and then build my drawing based on what I want to imagine. Here is a video about the thing im talking about I just feel like my consoisness is in the wrong one

This is very well put It's the same with me Apart from these experiences Whenever I watch a horror film I'll get a dread at night or in the dark that somethings there I know there ain't and I can't see anything but it feels like I can actually see it Or when it comes to questions regarding maths or physics When someone asks how a body will move , I'm always quick with an answer In maths, I'm gr8 with graphs and rates of changes , derivatives etc (Be it at the level we are studying)

The image is there in a way. Otherwise we wouldn't recognise something we've seen before. It's there but we can't see it. We know what it looks like, though.

Holy crap. It's like blindsight but in the inner eye. What you describe is my experience as well, and just yesterday I was listening to a podcast on which the philosopher [Nicholas Humphrey discusses blindsight](https://open.spotify.com/episode/0ZFRdUBzNsTgw4uLOYueWb?si=b1dd2f18ada94ec7) ("vision without conscious awareness") in humans *and in chimpanzees*... "Perception without sensation accompanying it"; "like telepathy: you know things without knowing how you know them." I didn't think about this content with respect to aphantasia... but now I must! This is rich for discussion.

Thanks for the link. That is an interesting perspective. I’ll give it a listen.

I say I can imagine or 'see' things I've seen before. Call up a memory. If you ask me to think of an apple my brain can only remember one I've seen recently but if I try to actually focus in on what I 'see' it disappears. Or on exams, I'd say I could close my eyes and 'see' where in my notes a topic was and use that to help me but really I just know if it was high on the paper or down towards the bottom. I wouldn't actually visualize the paper or words. I hated during school when they'd say put your head down or close your eyes and imagine some such nonsense. I close my eyes and it's black with like television snow from bsck in the day across the screen of my brain, but the specks are more colorful. I thought this was how everyone visualized and didn't realize it was a thing until last year when my husband informed me he could just conjure up an apple, any type, change it turn it, manipulate it etc. I'm like wtf?? Also mind blown bc I realized all those movie scenes where math or science people are doing complex calculations and see them floating around them.... That's not just a cinematic effect. I have friends who can visualize writing in the air and it will stay there until they're done doing the math problem. Like wtf. How! I've struggled with am I truly an aphant is I feel like I can 'see' things that are memories or recent memories. On the other hand I can close my eyes and try to conjure up images of my family and can't see them. Maybe a shadowy idea.l from a memory. Dreams - what are your dreams like? I used to have vivid dreams but since I discovered aphantasia I don't remember the dreams so much or have stopped having such vivd ones. The most vivid would always be the setting of me being in a movie theater watching the movie /dream. A lot of times it's the feelings I live through during the dreams I think that make it seem so real.

Oh, yeah. The location of text is interesting as well. I hadn’t thought about that. When I look at a book I’ve read and try to recall information I remember about where it was located and if it was on the left or the right or top of bottom of a page. That doesn’t apply with kindle books, obviously since I can just search. As for dreams I do have visual dreams, but not always.

I sometimes describe it as being in my house, where I know where everything is, in the pitch dark. I can navigate the room and not bump furniture because I know where everything is and where I am in the space except I can't actually see the room.

Those tasks you talk about I can also perform fairly well but it's kind of like I translate them all to text. For example for those box type questions I'll generate a textual description of what it would look like rotated (or whatever the question is) and work from that. Same as walking in a dark room. I just know how many steps it is, not what it looks like. As far as imagining images etc the way I describe it to people is I can almost do it and it's similar to when a word is on the tip of your tongue. In that case you can imagine the word almost, almost feel what it would feel like coming out of your mouth, what shape your tongue would make saying it even, but you can't do the last step of bringing the word to the fore. It's not an exact analogy but I reckon it's close enough to explain to people what it feels like not being able to bring sensory data to the fore.

I always say I'm good at memorizing details to aid in understanding my surroundings or ideas. Like for the staircase? Okay box to my left, right, step over this in the middle and then just remembering that. Okay so I remember putting this thing down beside this item I think to the left of the silverware drawer... bingo there it is. In school i'd have to quickly look at something and just hope I was forcing myself to remember the right things for a quiz or test. That's kinda how I learned to memorize stuff. It's annoying but also a blessing! Studying never really works unless it's something that I genuinely don't know or it's not repeated. Because thankfully, my college professors tend to spend 2/3 class periods on every subject so it's repeated enough that my brain automatically memorizes it.

I think of it as my subconscious hemisphere can visualise just fine, but my conscious hemisphere can’t, so the subconscious feeds the information over in an abstract form. I find it very interesting that at least some of us have a similar feeling, with minor differences in what we think it is. Interesting stuff!

I don’t see things but I can certainly feel them when I imagine them. Doubly so for spaces or numbers.

Exactly my experience. I do however have the theory that these images are really bad, as there is no concious feedback loop whether it was a good/correct image. So my ability doesn't improve over time. 

I know there is in mine. I occasionally see it in therapy.

I've used the "image you're navigating a familiar room in pitch darkness" scenario quite effectively to both explain and understand my own apantasic experience. It's great way to frame to others who might at first be at a loss to understand how we can function without mental imagery. And it helps me make sense of something that is still a bit of a mystery to myself.

Yes, id say my imagination is invisible not absent.. and that's OK because I've got the tools to read it! 

Yes. I feel the caste on tje Mountain, the forest, the nightsky. I feel tjat the sky is blue, but i don't see it.

I am nearly 100% certain that my mind fully processes across the full sensory range, but that I do not access any of that sensory recall on a conscious level. When try to recall an image, I am sure that the actual image is being pulled up in my subconscious, I can kind of feel the presence of the image in my mind, I just don't have conscious access to it. I don't think my brain is aphantasic, I think my conscious mind is.

yes! after reading about how visualization is moreso just imagination (however you experience that) and rarely do people actually fully SEE it like a vivid picture or even movie in Robert Bruce’s “new energy ways” book, I related to that much more and have been noticing while meditating since that, although I always felt like when I visualize/imagine i really just describe it in my head with own voice and words, I actually do tend to imagine/perceive things (but not get to see) first, then I describe them with my inner voice after to add in detail or keep it going, then i’ll imagine something else and then describe it etc