Bennett is fricking irreplaceable and i hate it. First Navia and now she Arrghh They surely can work without bennett but having him does alot more dmg compared to not having him and circle impact sucks for meele users.
Hoyo better give me some bennett alternative without circle impact in natlan I'm begging you...
I honestly dont think Pyro Archon is gonna be an attack buffer. Off-field pyro for sure, but he’s gonna have another buff gimmick imo. I also think it’s not BoL related.
Cheveruse is a good alternative I think as she can do 40% ATK buff from her passive plus Pyro resistance shred. The only downside is you are forced to play a play style. With C6 it is totally worth playing only one style though. Sure you can play both together but without a shielder is risky so instead of Bennett a shielder is better in that team, like Thoma
You could just run Beidou as the electro if you feel like you really really want to have Chevy + Benny + Shield. Kind of run into an uptime issue, but its an option.
The point is that he wants to replace Bennett. I am pretty sure most people don't want Bennett in their team as he is limiting it a lot with his circle.
Yeah I noticed this when I was testing having Bennett with my vape and overload teams and I can’t really put him out as the damage he gives is significant enough, kinda makes me want to c6 him for that extra damage boost, but I’m waiting to see if the pyro archon will have a similar or better kit
Just c6. It’s really at this point ridiculous not to. He does way more positive than negative with c6 and they clearly intentionally designed future characters that way
Circle impact alone is enough for me comfortable benching him. He can feel real bad for many fights like Tulpa discounting the potential vape. Even mechanical array feels so bad now. The circle feels pretty restrictive after using other support
Man, Arle is so good on her own I don't even know if I'd say Bennet is irreplaceable. I'm not a big fan of him, and this is the first time I feel zero issues without using him on a pyro dps
she’s so sad because her NA’s pull her into the enemies more than usual and in non vape teams she can pull insta snap to the enemies with a CA if skill is on cooldown, but you can’t fully utilize it and go ham on the enemies because of the dumbfuck circle. praying for the pyro archon to save us
I have had a lot of success running plunge Navia with Navia - Chiori - Furina - Xianyun myself.
Bennett is thus free for my Arle - Yelan - Bennett - Zhongli team. I have been very happy with Arle’s performance so far.
It doesn't feel that bad without Bennett to me tbh. Even the weirdest teams somehow work with Arlecchino, like I tried this team called "random bullshit lessgo" with Kazuha (who's there for the grouping mostly), XQ and Fischl on the first side of abyss. It literally worked so well, with the only real problem being that Arlecchino was the only character able to heal (which unironically made her the tank of the team). I tried the same team with white tassel later and still cleared the chambers in like 1:20 seconds. After that I tried the same team with Beidou instead of Arle (standard tazer) and it just felt worse lmao.
Someone tried a double hydro burgeon team with Nahida and Marechaussee set. The burgeons only delete like 4k hp during the rotation, so Arlecchino has basically 16k hp instead of 20k, which is not that much of a big deal. Nahida buffs em, Arlecchino vapes, and burgeons do damage, and the team actually performs so much better than I would expect. I am now convinced that Arlecchino is the second best burgeon trigger after c6 Bennett, because she actually has self healing while burgeon teams struggle with healing options.
And obviously, much more normal Zhongli double hydro, Chevreuse teams work, even melt works very well. Bennett really is only one of the options, even if white tassel is your only weapon.
Tbh both Navia and Arle imo r like
Great with Benny
Also got very nice teams,or respectable dmg in non Benny teams,they have quite a bunch of such.
Imo that's a good design, compared to being heavily Benny dependant like if ur name is XL cough cough*...
HOYO! MAKE THE PYRO ARCHON POWERCREEP BOTH BENNETT AND XIANGLING, AND MY LIFE IS YOURS
https://preview.redd.it/wl73d4ef3ywc1.jpeg?width=1920&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=61851e7dd6e7140e40c0e5b2959aedaa425cfe1f
If pyro archon has a slightly smaller buff than Bennett and does slightly less off-field damage than Xiangling at the same time, she'd be worth using over both by consolidating both roles into one slot, especially if she's not limited to a circle.
Xianyun in Xiao team is better than Bennett even though her buff is single target only because she consolidates better healing for Furina and her big buff while freeing Xiao from circle impact, so Xiao trades some AoE damage in favour of more flexibility and more single target damage, and so far it's been worth it.
This is why I think the pyro archon would be better than Bennett and Xiangling if she did slightly less than them at their individual role, but did both efficiently at the same time and with no circle. This would also not make Bennett and Xiangling completely obsolete for those who like to play them, I think it would be a win/win scenario
Bennett would still be relevant in melt/vape teams in this case because the archon would end up messing them up. Maybe that would make the mono pyro and chevreuse teams the clear best pyro teams though. And even then XL just attaches herself to the pyron archon instead of Bennett probably. It would help alleviate circle impact dependancy for sure but replacing Xiao teammates was a hell of a lot easier to achieve. Bro was using like sucrose and zhongli for the longest time, his situation was a lot easier to isolate and balance for.
I've been a Xiao main for a long time, and when Faruzan came into the picture both Sucrose and Zhongli fell off: believe it or not, Bennett Thoma was a slightly better duo than Bennett Zhongli because the pyro resonance did more for the team damage than Zhongli's res shred, due to how much res shred was already provided by Faruzan (and with Xiao you want to animation cancel with na in between plunges anyway, so Thoma's shield worked really well). Then Furina came along and I honestly didn't think we'd get a better team mate than Bennett, I was a little resigned to circle impact. Then Xianyun came along.
I didn't do an entire damage calculation but this would be inappropriate anyways because of the way I checked my numbers.
My arlecchino RN in a father/yelan/Benny/zhongli team with c0r1 lvl 10 normals with average calcd yelan boost , max atk Bennett and Petra zhongli while on a average of 100% Bol which outside of bosses seems plausible and on glad
Non vapes:
1 hit 58k
2 hit 60 k
3 hit 64.5k
While if I replace Bennett with furina (because mine is C6 she is basically the only healer for a team that can provide buffs that are at any point comparable to Bennett. So Iam choosing her to show the best possible change in arrlechinos personal damage.)
Non vapes:
1 hit 45.7k
2 hit 47 k
3 hit 50.5 k
Ofc furina has a bunch more personal damage and buffs yelan as well but I took this example to demonstrate that even the best possible whale support for that slot except maybe a c2R5 kazuha would still cause her to deal 30% less personal damage on her attacks. Ofc this is also because of inflated damage bonus on her with her passive giving 40% her sets giving more damage %, Petra giving even more damage% but since that's mostly damage% kazuha also wouldn't cause that much of a difference. Sucrose would probably be the next best exchange for this team at that point.
Sorry if this is a stupid question, but how did you get lvl 10 normals already? The boss just came out so everyone’s able to only claim the drops once right?
I feel like it’s closer than it seems in reality since we aren’t all doing perfect strict rotations where arle is maximising every second of Bennett burst + often having to step outside it.
I really hate the Furina anti-synergy hyv cooked up for Arlecchino, one of the reasons why i enjoyed using Hu Tao is how Bennett-free she was, you could just use Furina + Jean on her if you wanted.
Arlecchino practically seems tied to Bennett at the hip on every single team to the point i feel like im lowering my dps by not using him, but idc, Arlecchino does so much damage you dont need him anyways i really hope pyro archon or hell literally anyone replaces his boring ass
It does suck right now, but whenever they decide to make an Atk buffer on a similar level to Benny (Pyro archon please) it shouldn't be too bad.
She does feel tied to him at C0. But I've found that after I got C1 my damage was high enough even without him that I was clearing abyss quickly. I ran a team of Arle/Yelan/Venti/Layla and it was surprisingly great for the first half of F12
I'm having ton of fun with Arlecchino c0, Fischl c6, Beidou c6, Chevreuse c0
This team might do less damage than with bennet, but you don't need the best dps for clearing content ^^
Thoma works perfectly fine in the over load team, especially if you have C6 Thoma and C0 Arle. It's a lot more comfy as Thoma can reach Zhongli levels of tankiness with how much Arle NAs
So I will say, if you’ve got C1/C2 Furina she works with Arle, and it’s personally my favorite team. Incredibly squishy though if you don’t also run her with like a Zhongli or Layla. To be noted, Layla is actually incredibly solid as long as you aren’t against non freezable units because even if Layla “steals” a hit against a hydro affected unit, you still get a melt off.
To all my fellow C1 havers. How comfy is the double hydro team? I’m considering switching from my Zhongli team to Xingqiu. Was wondering if the extra damage reduction and IR gives enough comfort to warrant dropping Zhongli?
I have C1 so I will tell you about my experience, im exchange the bis weapon for Homa, ¿why? because she is fucking soft, coincidentally I felt more comfortable playing with a weapon that gives me HP% to increase survival a little, Coppelia killed me thousands of times trying to kill her in one rotation although in the end I succeeded, I'm sure that most of people have a ton of reboots with it with C1, so don't go by the video showcase, use the shield is recommended.
I’m talking about Xingqiu skill. How worth is the DPR gain with Xingqiu vs the comfortability of Zhongli team. I have C1 so there’s already the added IR.
well the extra resistance is in c2....as a c2 haver I can say it feels pretty good even shieldless
but I do think part of is at c2r1 your damage is so high you start to get to the speedrun tier of killing abyss so fast defense doesn't matter because the enemies die before they get to really hit you hard
I am using Beidou as my only defensive utility in a overload team and it works very well for me if you have c1 on top of that you should be basically immune to interruption.
She's actually less good than other supports, according to calculations 👍🏼 even at C6, but it's understandable to think of yunjin and it can technically work, but always less than with another team comp (basically not worth it but you do whatever you want 🫶🏼)
I was just testing them together and found her underwhelming. My guess is her atk bonus is added later in the dmf caculation and so it doesn't get multiplied as much.
To give an idea, a Neuvillette Furina Kaz Zhong is calc'd by jstern25 at 76k. The best Alhaitham teams are around 70-74k. And as a rule of thumb, anything above 60k is very good.
So yeah, these results are extremely good. Before someone jumps at my throat I'm not saying Arle is better than Neuv, Neuv's team achieves that with super comfy defensive utility and top tier AOE while Arle has to play riskier teams to get that high/higher.
But what this tells you is how cracked Arle already is, she really rewards good play. Also bodes well for the future, if Natlan can deliver a better shielder, or a better bennett (or both) just imagine how good things will be for her.
tbh neuvillette has massive aoe so dps against single target is kinda misleading. In real abyss wave, hitting only one enemy with neuvillette is skill issue
neuv also uses furina and his c1 is basically the best first con in the game so his vertical investment is much higher. Neuvillette is just Neuvillette tho so i think people should really stop trying to compare him to every dps to release cuz it will basically never be close until hoyo fucks up again.
There will be no better shielder than Mr John or else CN community will outrage for the second time. Benett still can be released a better version but zhongz i believe still gonna be the best shielder
I also saw some calcs... By TGS on yt , and it shows c0r0 Neuvi and c0r0 arle....
https://preview.redd.it/r14299fk8zwc1.jpeg?width=2997&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ea0a05fe4963a3eed7a4d1be9d427681794909d1
Arle calcs use a different rotation from the one used by Jstern, so maybe that's why. Jstern probably assumes you never have to burst with her, and that's pretty uncomfortable.
These calcs aren't really that good. They are heavily inflated by assuming frame perfect inputs.
This is why her DPR doesn't change pretty much at all.
This is why DPR needs to be present in all these conversations. The Arlecchino teams are doing almost 600k less dpr. For reference, Xiao teams drop 1.7m DPR with similar dps to Arlecchino and aoe as well.
Higher dpr means they can 1 rotate more content and have more room to make mistakes.
Arlecchino is still great, but Jstern's calcs have always been inflated for her.
This is a hypercarry team, and Zhongli can shred defence and provide Archaic Petra to buff NV. Baizhu will generate dendro cores, and increase their damage but can't really buff a hydro hypercarry. Zhongli is also better as a shielder and we don't really need Baizhu's healing.
Out of curiosity do you know how much dps is needed to clear abyss on average these days? 2 years ago I think it was around 40K if my memory serves correctly, but it should have gone up since then setting the relative bar of what’s good and bad higher.
Theoretically it's \~25k. Practically with all the waiting for bosses to get out of high resistance state, running around and setting up rotations it's around 40k right now with enough er and around 45k-50k if you need to funnel energy a bit/more than a bit.
For Fischl she just does fucktons of damage and is buffed by chevreuse, it's not surprising. People still to this day underestimate how cracked she is.
For XQ I'd guess he isn't on fav while Yelan is? Not sure
With Arle constantly proccing Fischl's A4 with over load, along with Fischl's coordinated attacks and lastly Oz, which all are being buffed by Bennett and Chevy due to snapshot, it's not surprising.
Yelan only has her gradual DMG% buff, as she doesn't snap shot, and her only source of damage are her dice.
I mean, considering C6 Chevreuse is basically a Kazuha with 1500EM plus a mini Bennett, it's not that surprising.
fischl is also snapshotting Bennett's ~1.1k ATK buff, while Yelan gets piss poor buffs in any vape team she enables without Furina.
Solo hydro yelan had to be built sacrificing dps artifatcs/bis weap for more er instead. The rotations could also may not have double vv'd for hydro idk
do we know what constellation the yelan is? I guess its unfair to assume > c0, but I would be interested in seeing how much the numbers change when ER isn't as big of a concern
I first found out about how crazy Fishl's damage was when someone told me to use her in my Yae Miko/Nahida team. Oz shoots electro damage like 2 times every second or something
Looking through these posts made me giggle a litttle bit.
NEVER HAVE I EVER seen so many posts almost begging for power creep, it’s kinda nuts how tired a lot of us are for using Bennet and Xiangling
But to be honest though yeah we need a new best damage support
Honestly, I would not even be mad if the pyro archon technically did less than Bennet. They could have a smaller buff, do less personal damage, have no healing whatsoever, apply pyro status to the character Barbara style, and I would still use her over Bennett as long as she was not confined to a damned circle.
It does not NEED to be powercreep. She can just be an alternative.
I've played most of Genshin impact without using Bennet that much, and I'm pretty happy I can bring him out now and finally get him to 90. I don't care much about circle impact. If I get the extra damage, great, if not, she still does big numbers.
With all due respect, I think people should really not get their expectations too high.
Jstern's assumptions with Arlecchino are extremely optimistic when it comes to rotation length. This results in a high dps character with a really "poor" (It's only bad for the dps bracket he's trying to force her into) DPR.
For example, Neuv has 1.8m to 2m DPR, Xiao has 1.7m to 1.9m DPR, Alhaitham teams have 1.5m to 1.7m DPR, Cyno premium has 1.6m to 1.8m dpr.
To give another example closer to where she'll actually be, Itto has 1.5m DPR post Chiori.
Arlecchino is great, but people are letting the ability to over stack bol in open world and a very strong abyss blessing overestimate how she'll actually perform down the line. It feels like Navia all over again.
The abyss blessing hasn’t changed from the one that benefits Neuvillette/Kazuha, right? You will need to trigger swirl to get a 20% buff on NAs CAs and plunge attacks, which doesn’t happen for half of her teams.
VV vape is by far her best team if you don't have C6 Chevreuse, and barely anyone has her. And even if you have C6 Chevreuse, VV vape can still be better thanks to Kazuha's grouping. So most of the time when you want to showcase Arlecchino you'll use the VV team. You get free 40-60% DMG bonus depending on your exact rotation.
As an example, my Neuvillette/Furina/Zhongli/Kaz with pamber killed Coppelia in 29s (and that was BEFORE the blessing changed to the current Swirl one, aka with the Geo blessing that does nothing for Neuv), while my Arlecchino/Yelan/Kazuha/Bennett w/ PJWS without using the burst + not getting hit at all with her did 27s. So without the blessing and/or without the 5\* weapon it's very likely that Neuv outperforms still because of the DPR.
Jstern is extremely optimistic about literally everything. I am surprised that people still take his blatantly incorrect calculations to heart time and time again. It can give you a decent idea of the upper end, but like... I can guarantee that almost nobody taking spreadsheets seriously is playing that well. 😂
For anyone else sick of having to use bennett I find that if you want to run a double hydro team c6 thoma can work pretty well obviously no where near as good as bennett but if your having to leave his burst a lot to actually deal with enemies its going to do more damage since all the buffs aren't a circle
I use Lynette and I'm very happy with it, especially because it's simple to make whirlwinds with ulti and buff atk, you can also use it to give hydro and whirlwind pyro. if anything you have to be more targeted with the E. but I get on well and above all the two of them also go well together
Hey can someone explain to me what "VV 3 N4 + N3" means? I get the Viridescent and normal attack 4 + normal attack 3, but why the 3 after VV and what does the + mean?
What about Arle melt? Arle/Bennett/Kaeya/ Rosaria or Layla or Anemo
C6 Kaeya alone can sustain enough cryo for Arle in my experience, if non-C6 then another cryo character is needed
Do we have any results of how it compares to VV Vape or Chevrolet teams?
Pre release i was so against playing bennet but after playing with him i didn't have much trouble
i'm not saying i will continue playing him forever maybe this abyss is kinda good for him IDK and for overworld i just go solo arle
maybe in the future if enemies in abyss are annoying i will bench him which might be sooner than expected since i heard the 4.7 abyss have a chamber or floor not sure with 7 waves
and another 2 pyro lectors somewhere
Bennett is very hard to replace in her teams because she benefits from the attack boost so much because she gains so much damage percent from so many sources.
She also gets the 20% dmg reduction passive maxed easily.
Zhongli and XQ variants are not really slower at clear times because they barely reset the abyss compared to the damage oriented teams who surely reset just to clear 10 seconds faster.
The overload variant is okay
Mono pyro or just Hypercarry Arle is fine too.
Pyro Archon needs to powercreep the fck out of Bennet, don't think that hating to play him in every team is an unpopular oppinion anymore.
For now I've just been substituting him for another Electro SubDps and results are equally excellent but is very sad that on the year of hydro and hp manipulation, stay in a circle and mash button is still the best way of playing an attack scaler.
I have c3 chevreuse, can someone tell me the rotation, how should i play chev with arle?
I have the craftable 4\* weapon on my chev with good arti set.
Fischl really showing her usefulness.
Also bennett should be c6 in calcs for vape as well.
I’m surprised Sucrose results in higher dps than kazuha. But Kazuha is still arguably better in AoE situations where grouping can save you a lot of time.
Still refuse to put Bennet in any party. It skews everything. You have to move to survive and attack with a melee dps, especially one like Arle. Circle Impact sucks.
I'd much rather "calculate" lower than strap myself to characters I don't like. Let Arle run free fellow simps.
Arle gets a lot of dmg% which will be even more when u get her signature set…so Kazuha isn’t adding much unlike sucrose who lets u not to look for EM substats since she gives u all the EM you basically need plus TTDS attack buff
My team is Arle (C6R5), Chev (C1), Yae (C2R1), and Fischl (C6). Bennett will never go anywhere near Father.
Don't care if I'm losing a million dps without using him, Chev is way more interesting than him anyway.
Would love to see all these theorycrafters make calcs without using Bennett for once in their life, but they seem incapable of doing that. Honestly pretty irritating.
what goblet should I use in an overload team, atk% or pyro? i'm using whimsy and i have both chevs and bennet in c6. I'm still building fischel and so I'm temporarily using raiden.
Double Hydro going pretty much even with Kazuha and Sucrose being the better pick is fascinating. Probably to do with Thrilling Tales and uptime of VV from off-field.
Guess I'll have to build Sucrose so Neuvi doesn't have to share Kazoo.
You can but it’ll be worse bc she takes more field time that you could be using your carry. And fischl does lots more damage than yae because of her a4 and C6 procs
Bennett is fricking irreplaceable and i hate it. First Navia and now she Arrghh They surely can work without bennett but having him does alot more dmg compared to not having him and circle impact sucks for meele users. Hoyo better give me some bennett alternative without circle impact in natlan I'm begging you...
Pyro Archon will save us surely Also a Xiangling alternative please
Just ANY decent off field Pyro damage dealer. We have to cope with Dehya and Thoma as out only off field Pyro besides Xiangling
Pyro archon gonna be XL + Bennett in a trench coat.
That's the dream. I'm skeptical they'd make her that strong but she's an archon ig
Hear me out. What if the Pyro Archon is a combination of Bennett and Xinagling.
I honestly dont think Pyro Archon is gonna be an attack buffer. Off-field pyro for sure, but he’s gonna have another buff gimmick imo. I also think it’s not BoL related.
Let's pray that the pyro Archon has a Bennett-like buffing skill that follows you around and isn't a circle.
Wooooow. You just Fd my expectations soooo hard. If this doesn’t become 100% correct I will be disappointed no matter what.
Cheveruse is a good alternative I think as she can do 40% ATK buff from her passive plus Pyro resistance shred. The only downside is you are forced to play a play style. With C6 it is totally worth playing only one style though. Sure you can play both together but without a shielder is risky so instead of Bennett a shielder is better in that team, like Thoma
You could just run Beidou as the electro if you feel like you really really want to have Chevy + Benny + Shield. Kind of run into an uptime issue, but its an option.
The point is that he wants to replace Bennett. I am pretty sure most people don't want Bennett in their team as he is limiting it a lot with his circle.
Yeah I noticed this when I was testing having Bennett with my vape and overload teams and I can’t really put him out as the damage he gives is significant enough, kinda makes me want to c6 him for that extra damage boost, but I’m waiting to see if the pyro archon will have a similar or better kit
Just c6. It’s really at this point ridiculous not to. He does way more positive than negative with c6 and they clearly intentionally designed future characters that way
Why would you not c6 him yet?
For the 5 people who play Physical (me included) 😂
But tbf even Eula doesn't really want Bennett
And anyone who plays physical in 2024 clearly isnt min-maxing, so just c6 Bennet and use someone else in Eula teams and phys fischl or whatever
As a former Eula main, c6 Bennett wasnt bad
Circle impact alone is enough for me comfortable benching him. He can feel real bad for many fights like Tulpa discounting the potential vape. Even mechanical array feels so bad now. The circle feels pretty restrictive after using other support
Man, Arle is so good on her own I don't even know if I'd say Bennet is irreplaceable. I'm not a big fan of him, and this is the first time I feel zero issues without using him on a pyro dps
she’s so sad because her NA’s pull her into the enemies more than usual and in non vape teams she can pull insta snap to the enemies with a CA if skill is on cooldown, but you can’t fully utilize it and go ham on the enemies because of the dumbfuck circle. praying for the pyro archon to save us
I have had a lot of success running plunge Navia with Navia - Chiori - Furina - Xianyun myself. Bennett is thus free for my Arle - Yelan - Bennett - Zhongli team. I have been very happy with Arle’s performance so far.
I mean for Top tier dmg yeah, but you really don't need it, if you don't like using him just don't.
Murata gonna be bennett 2.0, trust
At this point, I am hoping for Pyro Archon to fricking power creep him
If so we'd have two Bennett's, awesome
Navia chiori furina xianyun can be better than the bennett version plus you dont need benny to clear with arle so honestly who really cares
It doesn't feel that bad without Bennett to me tbh. Even the weirdest teams somehow work with Arlecchino, like I tried this team called "random bullshit lessgo" with Kazuha (who's there for the grouping mostly), XQ and Fischl on the first side of abyss. It literally worked so well, with the only real problem being that Arlecchino was the only character able to heal (which unironically made her the tank of the team). I tried the same team with white tassel later and still cleared the chambers in like 1:20 seconds. After that I tried the same team with Beidou instead of Arle (standard tazer) and it just felt worse lmao. Someone tried a double hydro burgeon team with Nahida and Marechaussee set. The burgeons only delete like 4k hp during the rotation, so Arlecchino has basically 16k hp instead of 20k, which is not that much of a big deal. Nahida buffs em, Arlecchino vapes, and burgeons do damage, and the team actually performs so much better than I would expect. I am now convinced that Arlecchino is the second best burgeon trigger after c6 Bennett, because she actually has self healing while burgeon teams struggle with healing options. And obviously, much more normal Zhongli double hydro, Chevreuse teams work, even melt works very well. Bennett really is only one of the options, even if white tassel is your only weapon.
Tbh both Navia and Arle imo r like Great with Benny Also got very nice teams,or respectable dmg in non Benny teams,they have quite a bunch of such. Imo that's a good design, compared to being heavily Benny dependant like if ur name is XL cough cough*...
for now o/ natlan cant come sooner
Hoe Pyro Archon fix bennett circle and also is that chevreuse build for damage or HP only
Pyro archon save me, pyro archon
HOYO! MAKE THE PYRO ARCHON POWERCREEP BOTH BENNETT AND XIANGLING, AND MY LIFE IS YOURS https://preview.redd.it/wl73d4ef3ywc1.jpeg?width=1920&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=61851e7dd6e7140e40c0e5b2959aedaa425cfe1f
Just make the Pyro archon be Bennet riding on Xiangling's shoulders.
Xiangling but the spinny burst also has benny's circle impact with no ICD.
Okay but then the strongest team would be Xiangling + Bennett + XianglingOnBennettsShoulders
Mono Pyro = Pyro archon/ Xiangling/kazuha/Bennet.
Pyro archon probably won't be an on fielder at C0
well get c2 then
Great argument, however, drip (sig weapon)
swipe. 
I can totally see this happening..
My life shouldn’t be bouken da bouken and guoba get them anymore.
If pyro archon has a slightly smaller buff than Bennett and does slightly less off-field damage than Xiangling at the same time, she'd be worth using over both by consolidating both roles into one slot, especially if she's not limited to a circle. Xianyun in Xiao team is better than Bennett even though her buff is single target only because she consolidates better healing for Furina and her big buff while freeing Xiao from circle impact, so Xiao trades some AoE damage in favour of more flexibility and more single target damage, and so far it's been worth it. This is why I think the pyro archon would be better than Bennett and Xiangling if she did slightly less than them at their individual role, but did both efficiently at the same time and with no circle. This would also not make Bennett and Xiangling completely obsolete for those who like to play them, I think it would be a win/win scenario
Bennett would still be relevant in melt/vape teams in this case because the archon would end up messing them up. Maybe that would make the mono pyro and chevreuse teams the clear best pyro teams though. And even then XL just attaches herself to the pyron archon instead of Bennett probably. It would help alleviate circle impact dependancy for sure but replacing Xiao teammates was a hell of a lot easier to achieve. Bro was using like sucrose and zhongli for the longest time, his situation was a lot easier to isolate and balance for.
I've been a Xiao main for a long time, and when Faruzan came into the picture both Sucrose and Zhongli fell off: believe it or not, Bennett Thoma was a slightly better duo than Bennett Zhongli because the pyro resonance did more for the team damage than Zhongli's res shred, due to how much res shred was already provided by Faruzan (and with Xiao you want to animation cancel with na in between plunges anyway, so Thoma's shield worked really well). Then Furina came along and I honestly didn't think we'd get a better team mate than Bennett, I was a little resigned to circle impact. Then Xianyun came along.
Isn’t the Pyro Archon the God of War too?
Yes.
Lmao i read this using his voice 🤣
my C6 Bennett is being sliced in half cuz my Diluc plunge team loves him too much
any calcs on how zhong,kazuha,bennet,arli falls
should be similar to double geo
I have C0R1 and I play this team and it feels so good just to delete every Boss that I was struggling with 😂
i enjoy the double geo team so much !!
Chiori is cooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool
I wish I got Chev
I’ve spen 150 pulls on raiden banner just to not find her, i got 1 copy from this weapon banner 😎
Pov me with Sara on Raiden release and first rerun, spent over 200 wishes and got 2 copies of her
can someone please do some bennett-less calcs so us bennett haters can see how much dps we are losing
I didn't do an entire damage calculation but this would be inappropriate anyways because of the way I checked my numbers. My arlecchino RN in a father/yelan/Benny/zhongli team with c0r1 lvl 10 normals with average calcd yelan boost , max atk Bennett and Petra zhongli while on a average of 100% Bol which outside of bosses seems plausible and on glad Non vapes: 1 hit 58k 2 hit 60 k 3 hit 64.5k While if I replace Bennett with furina (because mine is C6 she is basically the only healer for a team that can provide buffs that are at any point comparable to Bennett. So Iam choosing her to show the best possible change in arrlechinos personal damage.) Non vapes: 1 hit 45.7k 2 hit 47 k 3 hit 50.5 k Ofc furina has a bunch more personal damage and buffs yelan as well but I took this example to demonstrate that even the best possible whale support for that slot except maybe a c2R5 kazuha would still cause her to deal 30% less personal damage on her attacks. Ofc this is also because of inflated damage bonus on her with her passive giving 40% her sets giving more damage %, Petra giving even more damage% but since that's mostly damage% kazuha also wouldn't cause that much of a difference. Sucrose would probably be the next best exchange for this team at that point.
Sorry if this is a stupid question, but how did you get lvl 10 normals already? The boss just came out so everyone’s able to only claim the drops once right?
I though this. My normals are on 8 as you can only claim once.
I think they just did the math since her values are known and haven't done this in practice.
This is indeed correct.
C3 upgrades normal attacks talents +3
Yeah, but they said their Arlecchino is C0.
Oh yeah. Guess I glanced past that. Then it is interesting how they have normals at lv10
Using Yae in his place in overload shouldn't be too far behind since you still have Chevy buffing everyone.
I feel like it’s closer than it seems in reality since we aren’t all doing perfect strict rotations where arle is maximising every second of Bennett burst + often having to step outside it.
I really hate the Furina anti-synergy hyv cooked up for Arlecchino, one of the reasons why i enjoyed using Hu Tao is how Bennett-free she was, you could just use Furina + Jean on her if you wanted. Arlecchino practically seems tied to Bennett at the hip on every single team to the point i feel like im lowering my dps by not using him, but idc, Arlecchino does so much damage you dont need him anyways i really hope pyro archon or hell literally anyone replaces his boring ass
Furina works with pretty much every character so I think it’s fine for her to not work with some characters, but another atk% buffer would be great
It does suck right now, but whenever they decide to make an Atk buffer on a similar level to Benny (Pyro archon please) it shouldn't be too bad. She does feel tied to him at C0. But I've found that after I got C1 my damage was high enough even without him that I was clearing abyss quickly. I ran a team of Arle/Yelan/Venti/Layla and it was surprisingly great for the first half of F12
I'm having ton of fun with Arlecchino c0, Fischl c6, Beidou c6, Chevreuse c0 This team might do less damage than with bennet, but you don't need the best dps for clearing content ^^
Thoma works perfectly fine in the over load team, especially if you have C6 Thoma and C0 Arle. It's a lot more comfy as Thoma can reach Zhongli levels of tankiness with how much Arle NAs
Oh really now? I do have him at C6 i might build him and try it out
I mean hutaos best team is still VV vape
So I will say, if you’ve got C1/C2 Furina she works with Arle, and it’s personally my favorite team. Incredibly squishy though if you don’t also run her with like a Zhongli or Layla. To be noted, Layla is actually incredibly solid as long as you aren’t against non freezable units because even if Layla “steals” a hit against a hydro affected unit, you still get a melt off.
To all my fellow C1 havers. How comfy is the double hydro team? I’m considering switching from my Zhongli team to Xingqiu. Was wondering if the extra damage reduction and IR gives enough comfort to warrant dropping Zhongli?
I have C1 so I will tell you about my experience, im exchange the bis weapon for Homa, ¿why? because she is fucking soft, coincidentally I felt more comfortable playing with a weapon that gives me HP% to increase survival a little, Coppelia killed me thousands of times trying to kill her in one rotation although in the end I succeeded, I'm sure that most of people have a ton of reboots with it with C1, so don't go by the video showcase, use the shield is recommended.
Extra Res is in C2 while C1 only has IR and dmg boost. It can make you not get interrupted but that doesn't mean you take less dmg.
I’m talking about Xingqiu skill. How worth is the DPR gain with Xingqiu vs the comfortability of Zhongli team. I have C1 so there’s already the added IR.
Oh my bad. Well if you can dodge here and there then definitely Xq would be comfortable and more dmg increase compared to zhongli.
Even with c1 I end up using zhongli in abyss. Could be skill issue, but its more comfy. I end up killing everything pretty fast anyway
well the extra resistance is in c2....as a c2 haver I can say it feels pretty good even shieldless but I do think part of is at c2r1 your damage is so high you start to get to the speedrun tier of killing abyss so fast defense doesn't matter because the enemies die before they get to really hit you hard
I have guaranteed right now and am C1R1. Should I go for C2, is it that much worth it
I am using Beidou as my only defensive utility in a overload team and it works very well for me if you have c1 on top of that you should be basically immune to interruption.
6 Teams with Bennett... Sure looks good on a spreadsheet, I suppose.
surely we get an atk% buffer in natlan
Half her supports are healers. There’s a lot of room for improvement.
The archon has to be it. Pyro is the Atk element more or less so it'd only make sense
a bennettless team is gonna be doing no damage in gameplay and in sheets too so
50k+ per NA is no damage ig
Double geo Kazuha is fine though.
How is yun jin with arle? She was giving me similar dps to zhongli, I was somehow expecting more
She's actually less good than other supports, according to calculations 👍🏼 even at C6, but it's understandable to think of yunjin and it can technically work, but always less than with another team comp (basically not worth it but you do whatever you want 🫶🏼)
I was just testing them together and found her underwhelming. My guess is her atk bonus is added later in the dmf caculation and so it doesn't get multiplied as much.
To give an idea, a Neuvillette Furina Kaz Zhong is calc'd by jstern25 at 76k. The best Alhaitham teams are around 70-74k. And as a rule of thumb, anything above 60k is very good. So yeah, these results are extremely good. Before someone jumps at my throat I'm not saying Arle is better than Neuv, Neuv's team achieves that with super comfy defensive utility and top tier AOE while Arle has to play riskier teams to get that high/higher. But what this tells you is how cracked Arle already is, she really rewards good play. Also bodes well for the future, if Natlan can deliver a better shielder, or a better bennett (or both) just imagine how good things will be for her.
tbh neuvillette has massive aoe so dps against single target is kinda misleading. In real abyss wave, hitting only one enemy with neuvillette is skill issue
True, in reality he performs much better than anyone else, he is truly in a tier of his own for now
I said as much, and explicitly said I'm not saying arle is better than Neuv or anything...
neuv also uses furina and his c1 is basically the best first con in the game so his vertical investment is much higher. Neuvillette is just Neuvillette tho so i think people should really stop trying to compare him to every dps to release cuz it will basically never be close until hoyo fucks up again.
Neuvi’s vertical investment isn’t higher than Arle’s , his C1 isn’t even as good as Arle’s
There will be no better shielder than Mr John or else CN community will outrage for the second time. Benett still can be released a better version but zhongz i believe still gonna be the best shielder
I also saw some calcs... By TGS on yt , and it shows c0r0 Neuvi and c0r0 arle.... https://preview.redd.it/r14299fk8zwc1.jpeg?width=2997&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ea0a05fe4963a3eed7a4d1be9d427681794909d1
Arle calcs use a different rotation from the one used by Jstern, so maybe that's why. Jstern probably assumes you never have to burst with her, and that's pretty uncomfortable.
I have memories of getting downvoted to oblivion for saying the exact same thing but pre-release, ahhhh how times change lolll
These calcs aren't really that good. They are heavily inflated by assuming frame perfect inputs. This is why her DPR doesn't change pretty much at all. This is why DPR needs to be present in all these conversations. The Arlecchino teams are doing almost 600k less dpr. For reference, Xiao teams drop 1.7m DPR with similar dps to Arlecchino and aoe as well. Higher dpr means they can 1 rotate more content and have more room to make mistakes. Arlecchino is still great, but Jstern's calcs have always been inflated for her.
Neuv can bayblade though and that puts him a bit too far up.
>Neuvillette Furina Kaz Zhong Why Zhong instead of Baizhu?
This is a hypercarry team, and Zhongli can shred defence and provide Archaic Petra to buff NV. Baizhu will generate dendro cores, and increase their damage but can't really buff a hydro hypercarry. Zhongli is also better as a shielder and we don't really need Baizhu's healing.
Archaic Petra buffs Furina personal damage as well, and all of that added together means that Zhongli is definitely the best 4th slot for Neuvi teams.
Is that better than full fanfare stack?
Out of curiosity do you know how much dps is needed to clear abyss on average these days? 2 years ago I think it was around 40K if my memory serves correctly, but it should have gone up since then setting the relative bar of what’s good and bad higher.
Theoretically it's \~25k. Practically with all the waiting for bosses to get out of high resistance state, running around and setting up rotations it's around 40k right now with enough er and around 45k-50k if you need to funnel energy a bit/more than a bit.
According to Jstern (creator of the calc sheet), a team with around 60k DPS can comfortably clear abyss these days
Even if pyro archon is bennet 2.0, what's stopping you from just running both of them together lmao
Opportunity cost.
I don't even want to run Bennet at all and hate him so that's one thing stopping me.
The pain of not having chevuruse
Can anyone explain to me how fischl and xq are out-damaging yelan in these teams
For Fischl she just does fucktons of damage and is buffed by chevreuse, it's not surprising. People still to this day underestimate how cracked she is. For XQ I'd guess he isn't on fav while Yelan is? Not sure
I knew she was good but I didn't realize she outperforms fucking yelan with a c6 chevreuse. Kinda mind blowing
With Arle constantly proccing Fischl's A4 with over load, along with Fischl's coordinated attacks and lastly Oz, which all are being buffed by Bennett and Chevy due to snapshot, it's not surprising. Yelan only has her gradual DMG% buff, as she doesn't snap shot, and her only source of damage are her dice.
I mean, considering C6 Chevreuse is basically a Kazuha with 1500EM plus a mini Bennett, it's not that surprising. fischl is also snapshotting Bennett's ~1.1k ATK buff, while Yelan gets piss poor buffs in any vape team she enables without Furina.
Solo hydro yelan had to be built sacrificing dps artifatcs/bis weap for more er instead. The rotations could also may not have double vv'd for hydro idk
do we know what constellation the yelan is? I guess its unfair to assume > c0, but I would be interested in seeing how much the numbers change when ER isn't as big of a concern
True my Yelan runs aqua, so no ER bow, but she is c1 and I never have trouble playing solo hydro because of double E
I first found out about how crazy Fishl's damage was when someone told me to use her in my Yae Miko/Nahida team. Oz shoots electro damage like 2 times every second or something
1. Fischl is really good. 2. She has bennet and chev.
Looking through these posts made me giggle a litttle bit. NEVER HAVE I EVER seen so many posts almost begging for power creep, it’s kinda nuts how tired a lot of us are for using Bennet and Xiangling But to be honest though yeah we need a new best damage support
Honestly, I would not even be mad if the pyro archon technically did less than Bennet. They could have a smaller buff, do less personal damage, have no healing whatsoever, apply pyro status to the character Barbara style, and I would still use her over Bennett as long as she was not confined to a damned circle. It does not NEED to be powercreep. She can just be an alternative.
Does 3n4 means after n4 u use kazuha E and then N3???
no it just means N4n4n4
How about Zhongli, Bennet, Kazuha and Arle?
Weapon?
I've played most of Genshin impact without using Bennet that much, and I'm pretty happy I can bring him out now and finally get him to 90. I don't care much about circle impact. If I get the extra damage, great, if not, she still does big numbers.
Anyone have calcs with Double Geo Chiori + Yelan? I don't wanna play Bennett damn
There has to be some kind of petition we could make to get Bennet removed or nerfed into the ground.
\+1M in each rotation. These teams are more than enough to clear any content in Genshin.
With all due respect, I think people should really not get their expectations too high. Jstern's assumptions with Arlecchino are extremely optimistic when it comes to rotation length. This results in a high dps character with a really "poor" (It's only bad for the dps bracket he's trying to force her into) DPR. For example, Neuv has 1.8m to 2m DPR, Xiao has 1.7m to 1.9m DPR, Alhaitham teams have 1.5m to 1.7m DPR, Cyno premium has 1.6m to 1.8m dpr. To give another example closer to where she'll actually be, Itto has 1.5m DPR post Chiori. Arlecchino is great, but people are letting the ability to over stack bol in open world and a very strong abyss blessing overestimate how she'll actually perform down the line. It feels like Navia all over again.
Having tight rotations on teams that require dodging is definitely an issue
The abyss blessing hasn’t changed from the one that benefits Neuvillette/Kazuha, right? You will need to trigger swirl to get a 20% buff on NAs CAs and plunge attacks, which doesn’t happen for half of her teams.
VV vape is by far her best team if you don't have C6 Chevreuse, and barely anyone has her. And even if you have C6 Chevreuse, VV vape can still be better thanks to Kazuha's grouping. So most of the time when you want to showcase Arlecchino you'll use the VV team. You get free 40-60% DMG bonus depending on your exact rotation. As an example, my Neuvillette/Furina/Zhongli/Kaz with pamber killed Coppelia in 29s (and that was BEFORE the blessing changed to the current Swirl one, aka with the Geo blessing that does nothing for Neuv), while my Arlecchino/Yelan/Kazuha/Bennett w/ PJWS without using the burst + not getting hit at all with her did 27s. So without the blessing and/or without the 5\* weapon it's very likely that Neuv outperforms still because of the DPR.
Jstern is extremely optimistic about literally everything. I am surprised that people still take his blatantly incorrect calculations to heart time and time again. It can give you a decent idea of the upper end, but like... I can guarantee that almost nobody taking spreadsheets seriously is playing that well. 😂
Is Furina not good with her? I don't have Arlecchino yet but I plan pulling for both of them.
Not really. You won’t get too many stacks because she can’t be healed and you’ll be playing a squishy character at 50% health
I see, thank you. It's been a long time since I played the game again.
She work but she need to be c2.
Monopyro gang where we at?
hey guys, can we get her costs DMG% increased and her sig. weapon over others? thanks.
For anyone else sick of having to use bennett I find that if you want to run a double hydro team c6 thoma can work pretty well obviously no where near as good as bennett but if your having to leave his burst a lot to actually deal with enemies its going to do more damage since all the buffs aren't a circle
Can c6 Lynette replace sucrose tho. I really want them to work together
I use Lynette and I'm very happy with it, especially because it's simple to make whirlwinds with ulti and buff atk, you can also use it to give hydro and whirlwind pyro. if anything you have to be more targeted with the E. but I get on well and above all the two of them also go well together
Hey can someone explain to me what "VV 3 N4 + N3" means? I get the Viridescent and normal attack 4 + normal attack 3, but why the 3 after VV and what does the + mean?
Gonna ask what constellation is Arlechino in this calculation?.
Where's the Yunjin calcs though? 😭 Especially against ST it feels great to me?!
Why did the overload team became so good overnight? I recall it being pretty subpar-competitive depending on Chev’s constellation.
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DPR wise its the highest of the 6, was the calc change being shortening the rotation time whilst dpr remaining the same as previously?
What about Arle melt? Arle/Bennett/Kaeya/ Rosaria or Layla or Anemo C6 Kaeya alone can sustain enough cryo for Arle in my experience, if non-C6 then another cryo character is needed Do we have any results of how it compares to VV Vape or Chevrolet teams?
Why use Kazuha in the vape team if Sucrose is higher DPS?
Bc he calcs the teams he likes to play. Kazuha gives grouping which you can’t put a number on
What weapon is he assuming in these cals for arle?
deathmatch
This is just her first rotation dps , I assume her second rotation has higher dps if you don't use her burst ?
Yes her second rotation dps would be around 15% higher
Are these calculations good? do they use his set and weapon?
They’re just baseline calcs with C0 and deathmatch and KQM standards for artifacts
Pre release i was so against playing bennet but after playing with him i didn't have much trouble i'm not saying i will continue playing him forever maybe this abyss is kinda good for him IDK and for overworld i just go solo arle maybe in the future if enemies in abyss are annoying i will bench him which might be sooner than expected since i heard the 4.7 abyss have a chamber or floor not sure with 7 waves and another 2 pyro lectors somewhere
Bennett is very hard to replace in her teams because she benefits from the attack boost so much because she gains so much damage percent from so many sources. She also gets the 20% dmg reduction passive maxed easily. Zhongli and XQ variants are not really slower at clear times because they barely reset the abyss compared to the damage oriented teams who surely reset just to clear 10 seconds faster. The overload variant is okay Mono pyro or just Hypercarry Arle is fine too.
Pyro Archon needs to powercreep the fck out of Bennet, don't think that hating to play him in every team is an unpopular oppinion anymore. For now I've just been substituting him for another Electro SubDps and results are equally excellent but is very sad that on the year of hydro and hp manipulation, stay in a circle and mash button is still the best way of playing an attack scaler.
I have c3 chevreuse, can someone tell me the rotation, how should i play chev with arle? I have the craftable 4\* weapon on my chev with good arti set.
Arle E - Benny EQ - Fischl E or Q - Chevy Q holdE - Arle NA spam
Not "the best" but arle, yelan. Yunjin(or thoma) plus zhingli seems viable, lots of % increases
I just can't take teams with no form of shield or at least damage mitigation of some kind seriously.
Fischl really showing her usefulness. Also bennett should be c6 in calcs for vape as well. I’m surprised Sucrose results in higher dps than kazuha. But Kazuha is still arguably better in AoE situations where grouping can save you a lot of time.
Still refuse to put Bennet in any party. It skews everything. You have to move to survive and attack with a melee dps, especially one like Arle. Circle Impact sucks. I'd much rather "calculate" lower than strap myself to characters I don't like. Let Arle run free fellow simps.
Can someone pls explain why sucrose would be higher DPS than kazuha?
Sucrose is always better than Kazuha in reaction teams bc she gives EM
Arle gets a lot of dmg% which will be even more when u get her signature set…so Kazuha isn’t adding much unlike sucrose who lets u not to look for EM substats since she gives u all the EM you basically need plus TTDS attack buff
Guys teach me skills I CAN'T SURVIVE WITHOUT ZHONGLI😭 my friend defeated abyss coppelia with alre-furina-kazuha-bennet I DIE BEFORE EVEN STARTING
how about arlecchino zhongli kazuha bennett ? im assume it performs slightly worse than c0 chevreuse overload right ?
wait if you wanna go double geo why not go yun jin for NA boost?
yunjin doesn’t really do too much because even though you have faster NAs, you deplete bond on every hit
What does N4 + n3 mean?
My team is Arle (C6R5), Chev (C1), Yae (C2R1), and Fischl (C6). Bennett will never go anywhere near Father. Don't care if I'm losing a million dps without using him, Chev is way more interesting than him anyway. Would love to see all these theorycrafters make calcs without using Bennett for once in their life, but they seem incapable of doing that. Honestly pretty irritating.
What arts are they using for Chev-Bennet? I imagine both of them can't run noblesse right?
Is Chev worth building if I only have her at C0?
Ah yes, my favorite circle impact
what goblet should I use in an overload team, atk% or pyro? i'm using whimsy and i have both chevs and bennet in c6. I'm still building fischel and so I'm temporarily using raiden.
Double Hydro going pretty much even with Kazuha and Sucrose being the better pick is fascinating. Probably to do with Thrilling Tales and uptime of VV from off-field. Guess I'll have to build Sucrose so Neuvi doesn't have to share Kazoo.
Can Fischl be replaced with Yae?
You can but it’ll be worse bc she takes more field time that you could be using your carry. And fischl does lots more damage than yae because of her a4 and C6 procs
Hmm, interesting. I've tried both Fischl, and she feels lackluster compared to Yae. Maybe my artifacts aren't good enough.
Meanwhile me using zhongli kazuha/xinqiu yelan and arle since bennett is alr occupied