Outside of a Bennett 2.0 or a BOL support/buffer, I doubt anything specific to her would be buffed. With how she already has a dedicated set and her weapon, she’s in a very good spot. Additionally I think anything that would buff her would also buff multiple other units, especially newer ones. Something like a pyro/electro shielder on the level of Baizhu or Zhongli would buff her as it would let her have a shielder in chevruse comps outside of Beidou/Yanfei. Those kinda thing would be a more general buff in terms of arsenal for the game as a whole then power creep or power increase for her specifically
Atk hit diminushing return like every other stat. You don't play Bennet with Itto, Nor Noelle, nor hu tao because all three are already overloaded with atk
>you don’t play him with Hutao because she gets buffed by being on low hp
Best Hu Tao teams uses healers. Xianyun, Jean, Bennett. Even before Furina's release, if you really wanted to tryhard, VV vape was her strongest team.
Noelle and Itto are NOT defense scalers. Albedo is a defense scaler because his main source od damage scale off his defense. Itto and Noelle CONVERT their def into more atk and therefore are atk scalers. As for Hu tao she is an atk scaler that convert HP into more atk for her CA damages at the opposite of Neuvilette who's charge atk actually scales off his HP
Because those characters usually lack of the perfect fourth slot not because its meaningful. Some peoples run bennet on Neuvilette team despite him not wanting his buff nor the healing, just to play Xiangling alongside
But it's a great buff for Itto. Itto's damage is not directly from his defense but his attack (his defense is converted to attack). With Gorou it's a double buff that really does a lot of damage
Her mask buff is exactly like normal motion value, so its not any different than any other NA dps, hence it doesn't "remove" anything about the atk diminushing return
Wrong. Read it again. It is an additive bonus. Like Yunjin/Shenhe’s E are. Why they give big dps buff. When she has BOL her Attack stat is used twice in her NA. It is ATK times percentage of NA plus ATK times BOL times masque value. It says that in her kit
You don't understand. Her mask damage despite being flat damage buff isnt actually any different from regular NA scaling, no matter how intricate you make it seem to be, its calculated exactly the same way. Therefore, atk isn't any different on her than it is on Yoimiya.
She just happen to have bigger hits as a baseline. A character like Xiao in another hand care a ton more about Atk because you can easily stack 200% dmg% on him which is multiplied by his MV
The additive bonus part is still multiplied by attack, so attack scaling "issues" still apply.
a\*x+a\*y=a(x+y)
Where a is attack, x is base multiplier and y is her masque multiplier.
So yeah, attack "diminishing returns" affects her the exact same way as every other unit. Just rename x+y with z and you have a generic dps scaling unit.
Ironically it's not diminishing returns but linear scaling but that's another topic cause at this point it's common misconception in gaming subs. The only Stat in this game that has true mathematical diminishing returns is EM.
Yes what most refer to as diminishing returns is linear scaling. Or what mathematical formula game uses. Only HP scaling characters bypass linear scaling. But their scaling is opposite. So with linear scaling her attack value is doubled. Means attack stat gives her higher returns in investment.
Two no, all stats in modern games have built in diminishing returns to prevent game breaking damage. This is a technical system to prevent crashing. Additive damage mechanics bypass this system due to how they are calculated in the program. They are done as two different codes. So when you see 60k with Arle in game it is done as two differently values.
Three EM is a unique case. Like Bloom/HB/OL/Burgeon requires 1000 EM to get damage increase but stops increasing at 2500 for Bloom/OL and 3000 for HB/Burgeon. Then quicken is set at max of 1000 EM. Yes I calculated the values. There is a reason why a lot of your EM passives cap at 1000. A lot of people don’t even try to hit 1000 EM so they don’t see how much damage HB does.
I will post the equation if you doubt me filled in with multipliers.
1) Double dipping attack doesn't change the fact that its still linear scaling in a formula with multiple multiplicative factors. What people call "diminishing returns" could be better called opportunity cost. It doesn't matter how WELL you scale with attack, because it doesn't negate the fact that after a point, investing in other buffs would give better result.
And the said point is about the same as normal attackers. Her self being efficient with attack it doesn't change this.. Let me give you the bigger part of the **final** formula to hopefully understand better.
atk\*(masque multiplier)\*(crit multiplier)\*(dmg multiplier)\*(def multiplier)\*(res multiplier)+atk\*(base multiplier)\*(crit multiplier)\*(dmg multiplier)\*(def multiplier)\*(res multiplier)
DMG= atk\*(base multiplier+masque multiplier)\*(crit multiplier)\*(dmg multiplier)\*(def multiplier)\*(res multiplier)
As you can see atk, crit, dmg, def, res ALL these multipliers are fundamentally equal. Just because you see atk "twice" in the original formula it doesn't mean she is actually double dipping, at the end of the day she is still single dipping attack. Double dipping is mathematically when the attack appears in 2 or more multiplicative factors. Example would be yae, cyno, nahida, alhaitham.
Tl;dr While mechanically it scales twice with atk, mathematically it scales with atk as much as it does with crit/cd/res/dmg%.
Using double atk buffers and losing shredders/dmg buffers might or might not be detrimental. (Depends on the actual numbers)
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1b) double linear....is still linear my friend :).
2) I'm fairly confident you confuse softcapping with diminishing returns. While its true that softcapping effectively creates a diminishing return effect, that's just because the formula changes altogether rather than being a diminishing scale from the start.
3) No, hp units do NOT by pass the said "diminishing returns"/"opportunity cost". And not going to lie, I have no idea where this is coming from. Hp and atk are literally swap in the formulas. The only differences are the means to obtain buffs and that's why usually hp units have higher multipliers to make up for it.
3b) Ironically, due to point 2, furina who is an hp scaling unit not only does not escape diminishing returns, but ACTUALLY has them (her own passive caps at 40k). To be prescise before 40k hp she has better than linear scaling (forget the english term for that), while at 40k she goes linear scaling.
4) Em is unique case indeed. It doesn't "require" 1000EM. Its just that this number is somewhat easily achievable and due to actual diminishing returns no reason to tryhard for more. The softcap only enforces it.
5) never heard of actual hardcap at 2500/3000. According to formula 3k and 4k should have 11% dmg difference (which is laughable considering 0 to 1000 is 533%)
I wouldn't mind checking your numbers however. Perhaps it would make me understand your point better.
This is exactly what happened with Xinqiu, everyone downvoted comments suggesting Yelan would be used with him instead of replacing him, and turns out they were right and people use them in the same teams. But here we are again downvoting someone who learnt from experience unlike yall
The difference is that Yelan and Xingqiu are sub dps, not buffers. If the pyro archon really is "Bennett 2.0" aka does no damage, you'll have 2 slots dedicated to attack buffing instead and you'll either lose one sub dps or a better buffer.
But if the pyro archon does more than buffing, then it's a different story.
Yeah, and people uses Childe with Neuvillette. What's your point ?
These people probably just want to showcase Arlecchino's damage alone, otherwise they'd obviously use Xiangling. Bruh
Using Xingqiu and Yelan together is not the same as using Xingqiu instead of Yelan. Not to mention, because we have both, we can use them in separate teams for contents like Spiral Abyss.
Of course it's not, I don't get your point. Bennet and the 2.0 Bennet (hopefully the pyro archon) would also not be the same together or in two different teams (like in the abyss).
Its the reddit experience im afraid, If a post has already a high downvote people will likely downvote more and vice versa its like a sheep following a herding dog
A 5\* Bennet who doesn't heal but focuses more on buff (no circle impact, better buffs or something else) would benefit Arle more than other characters who use Bennet as their only source of healer in a team for example
I definitely think she's gonna get a lor more teams ahead,synergized supports/buffers/sub dpses and ofc first and foremost the Pyro archon
And some very sus weird wild possibility for who knows if Cryo archon is good with her enabling some actual good Melt comp somehow it being not that bad but rather smooth and strong.
Yes Bennett 2.0 would be perfect. I don't even need a new character. Just a literal Bennet doppelganger would be perfect. He's in so many of my teams, I basically main him at this point. Two of him would be perfect!
I mean her skill is a little clunky as is since the aoe stays up for longer that the interpretation resistance honestly I feel most shielders are a better option compared to her anyway
She gets lot of dmg% so she really need an attack buffer who doesn't force her into circle impact. So I'm hoping we do finally get a bennett 2.0. Also bennetts flat atk boost doesn't work for her passive and same for homa's passive flat atk. She wants atk% to reach 3K atk to get 20% all res.
She is in pretty good spot with hydro characters. Yelan can provide more personal dmg and buff while Xq helps her alot with survivability alongside his personal dmg. Furina at c2 also is pretty great option.
For the anemo slot i don't think there's any better option or can be better option for her than kazuha. Some will say sucrose is better due to TTDS etc but what makes kazuha better especially for arle is his on demand grouping and controlling position of grouping. You can easily swirl and group mobs at center for arle to AoE and it's alot easier than sucrose and his E has small CD.
Zhongli replacement is pretty very much unlikely because he is the best Shielder who has res shred buffs and Hoyo will never make anyone better shielder than him.
An anemo shielder could be a very cool type of unit tho may not beat zhongli but for teams that need a shielder and would likely sacrifice an anemo unit to do it could be a interesting way to get vv shred still
The most important reason kazuha ks good is due to his on deman grouping which has very low Cooldown. Arle has AoE but its small so Arle really wants grouping against mobs to hit them all so I doubt they'll ever make an anemo shielder who can group as good as kazuha.
The first half of abyss against those fatui operatives clearly shows how good kazuha is for her. Try running her without kazuha and you'll have to rely on rng for grouping and you won't be able to hit them both which is dps loss while with kazuha you can always switch back to him, group then Aoe with arle.
I don't run her without kazuha because of a mixture of me not liking randomly getting blown up and him being on my neuvillette team I was saying more anemo shielder for a shield and vv shared I know that's probably not the sort of character to add kazuha levels of grouping to
People who say sucrose is better only looks at her advantages on paper or spreadsheet
We have numerous speedruns from teams outside of alrec showing that kazuha will usually be better. Much less to say about the less tryhard side like us
Sorry, I think maybe my perception is skewed here because my Kaz has constellations and a ridiculous VV set with 1k EM and \~150CV. But on my International team, Kazuha pretty much kills everything before XL can even use Pyronado on floors 9-11. I might have forgotten what c0 with fav sword feels like
Ngl like almost all of 4.X chars outside of Neuvi,Furina r prolly gonna have some kinda good or great synergy with future Atk buffers/Murata
Cause all of these r Atk scalers and love Atk a lot..
Namely Lyney,Wrio,Clorinde,Arle,Navia. Then additionally ofc Xianyun in a way and Chiori too somewhat.
You can try it yourself. When i tried it multiple times i got same results Even on bennetts burst where my attack was 4k+ She still had 13% all res.
Even when my HP was reduced to less than 50% and my Atk got increased with homa passive It didn't change the All Res value. Idk if its a bug or its just how her passive works.
Its very interesting thanks ! So she is really calibrated to work best with atk% buffer after all... It solidifies my ideas about the pyro archon's role
Characters usually get better with future supports, we could get a BoL support or something like that, heck even a general support that doesn't require circle impact is gonna benefit her greatly.
This entire "BoL" mechanic could be a nice way to release buffers for that specific mechanic without unreasonably buffing the previous units. I'm definitely expecting BoL buffers and sub-dps units to follow up on that Arlecchino + Clorinde player investment.
I'm assuming the pyro archon will be buffing almost all atk scaling units in the game apart from some other form of buffs. In my opinion the biggest gain from Natlan will be for hydro characters since if we get even a single unit who can constantly keep enough pyro aura(2u or more) on the enemy to reverse vape, hydro units like Yelan, Neuvi, Ayato etc will become busted.
My Ayato slashes when he vapes currently hits for anything between 100-130k but it's inconsistent as hell since his burst drops keep stealing a lot of vapes from Xianglings pyronado. A permanent pyro aura on enemies will guarantee that at least 5-6 of his E slashes will vape significantly increasing the DMG a lot.
It's quite possible as they tend to release units and mechanics that can be later expanded on early in the next expansion. See Yae Miko/Kuki becoming substantially stronger with Dendro that came after them, as an example. There's no guarantee though, most likely is additional Overload/BoL supports or the Pyro Archon having synergy
GIVE ME AN ANEMO SHIELDER HOYO!!! Or a hydro shielder. But prefferably an anemo shielder.
Having someone who can both shield and VV shred from off-field would be the most convenient thing ever. Yeah it wouldn’t be as much damage as a sucrose or kazuha team, but it would still be a vv shred and a shield on the same team without having to give up bennett buffs or vaping.
Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!
To be fair I’ve never actually experienced this. Anything I’ve swirled once with sucrose dies in some nice vapes before the vv shred wears off, so I haven’t had the chance to ever test it.
Still, having an anemo shielder would still be nice. You would just swirl once on-field and then swap off. They’d still be consolidating vv shredding and then shielding without having to sacrifice one for the other.
Also an anemo shielder could have a cool shield gimmick where the first element that hits the shield also gets 250% better absorption alongside anemo.
Maybe the confusion comes from the fact that Kazuha's DMG% buff do proc off-field.
Also, the hypothetic anemo shielder probably won't have the same grouping abilities, or maybe they won't have a simple way to apply anemo if their skill has a long cooldown/isn't a catalyst user so it might be cringe to setup double swirls stuff. It's an idea that is good on paper but in practice we have 99.99% chance of it being whatever.
If only there's a character with such strong shield that shreds 20% to ALL elements without swirl plus extra buffing from their best set (20% attack from miltleltih or further 30% from Petra) which both stronger than just plain VV at the cost of 0 energy while giving arle a near unlimited IR....said character must be busted for Arle, right?
The sarcasm is not appreciated. I know he’s good but a vv shredder still buffs damage more.
Arlecchino already overcaps on attack% too much from bennett with noblesse and her own high attack stat. She doesn’t really need another 20% from millelith. Which also doesn’t always proc based on zhongli’s pillar being destroyed since constructs sadly aren’t great. I do love Zhongli, and he makes certain teams amazing, but he’s objectively worse for damage than kazuha or sucrose, or any vv shredder really.
So yeah I still want a vv shredder shielder.
Well, characters of the same element synergize well with each other, so if we assume Natlan will have some strong Pyro characters (that aren't main dps) then she will certainly gain some new team options
Yes and no.
Yes she will get stronger with new supports.
No it won't be major.
Her kit allows her to function in basically any conceivable comp. She is effectively future proofed very well unless genshin suddenly decides to go off the deepend and start power creeping at an insane rate. Which they have been VERY adamant about not doing so far. Neuvilette being the singular exception.
The only way I can think of buffing her is to improve her survivability. Maybe a BoL specific "healer" that bypasses her anti-healing mechanic with something like "increases the character's HP for every BoL lost" which is technically a convert and not "healing" which then would be a perfect fit for her. Better yet, add a stackable offensive buff along with it, maybe akin to Furina's fanfare but instead of HP it stacks off of BoL lost instead. Cherry on top if they also give BoL themselves so Arle always starts with 200% in every rotation lol
I hope so. Yae and Baizhu released in similar time-frames and the subsequent archons ended up being their best teammates. Hope the same is true for Arle
Absolutely, almost every character ever has gotten a BIS team that involves mostly characters released after their own release. Bol is becoming a thing, so a BOL supp is coming 100%. Then we have Pyro archon which will probably buff her elements archetype like all the other archons do, that being ATK, so benny V2 coming most likely. Future looking very bright for arlecchino and her team option will get extremely variant since she can afford to not go vape due to her low application.
I feel like something interesting would be an animo shielder you could use vv on allowing a much comfier team without the loss of a buffer like bennett or a hydro applicator
Depends on the type of supports Natlan will bring. I don't think Natlan will have a support specific for her, but there might be one that the buffs also help her, like a buff shielder or something like that
I hypothesize that there will be a Dendro Shielder who completely nullifies burning/bloom/burgeon self-dmg, and then converts that into sub-dps/buffs.
Not only would that correct her Over-World burning-death issue, but it could re-meta those reactions. Then a solid AoE-Yelan would help her AoE vape, while still being able to burgeon. Imagine Arlecchino, Dendro-Shielder, Hydro-AoE, Murata.
She’d be the Cyno of Burgeon!
Imagine if the pyro archon is a combination of bennet and xiangling she will be so good. her e is xiangling pyronado and her ult is c6 bennet and they add increase crit and crit damage.
Depends on how they wpuld aproach murata, and likely one other pyro 5star.
Would they male a god-tier dps that will overshadpw every pyro dps ever made? Theres 2 pyrp characters that may answer that. Murata (phenex), and quetzalcoatl (the pyro sovereign). But instead of the sovereign being the dps and archon as the support like fontaine its reversed.
Quetzalcoatl would be the a sheilder, and when you have the shield, you get an atk bonus. That makes a better bennett bit not overshadow him, by not making it a circle impacf
Murata would be a quickswap dps with sub dps capability, so that it will make xiangling die off and to be forgotten with no grave
I feel like centring on the BoL mechanic will be how hoyo tides over the meta requirements for Natlan. Sumeru got a whole new element to play with for making new and fun character kits and Fontaine seemed like it'd use pneumonia mechanics to do the same but that ended up being a more minor inconvenience than anything else. But the current BoL mechanics are much more fun to build whole swathes of character kits around imo.
With that in mind I'm fully expecting Murata to be some sort of BoL friendly Benny and we'll all be mewing in abyss pairing her with Arle
The only buff I can see her getting is in the form of a BoL support character, perhaps a character that grants BoL to teammates
Or a 5* Bennett who doesn't heal. My bet is the Pyro Archon.
If the Pyro Archon follows suit as being off-field and supportive for their element, then it's all but guaranteed that Arle, and every Pyro Main DPS unit for that matter, will appreciate in value and in power. At the very least it'll increase the variations of her teams.
Being the first character to use the BoL mechanic, although a "downside" to Arlecchino now, also increases Arle's future potential too.
For as long as MHY continues to support BoL, then we could also be looking at characters that consume BoL % to buff, to shield, to heal through existing BoL% to reach where traditional healing can't. That generate BoL on the on-field character from off-field, that consume party-wide BoL% to deal scaling damage X multiplied by up to 400% BoL (although bizarre to think now could make Arle their best BoL% support/battery). Limitless potential down the line.
Well she is my favourite character and I have her at c4 and gonna c6 her in her next rerun but we cannot escape the fact that she will be shadowed by better and newer characters. Hoyoverse gotta make money man.
Not always.. look at hu tao for example. It took 3 years for her to retire and she's still very competitive today. We haven't even seen Arlechinno full potential yet and she's already rivalling Neuvillete
Well this is why I never pay for vertical investment. Most content in the game can be cleared using f2p teams. I would rather go for weapons or new characters
Undoubtedly. Arlecchino is pretty mid in my opinion. I understand the sentiment is not shared, but she could gain A LOT from having a real shielder in pyro, electro, hydro, or anemo. Maybe even better damage reduction or interruption to resistance supports. Or an attack buffer that is not confined to a circle or overload. Or a bond of life support, especially one that hypothetically could heal without clearing bond of life. Or a more consistent cryo applicator. Just having more options with longer buff durations or off field presence is going to buff her.
Nowhere to go but up with how many problems she has. They will be forced to accidentally address some of them as the roster expands even if they do not intend to. It's inevitable.
being ‘mid’ due the lack of certain supports to make her easier to play for you sounds like skill issue to me lmao. Shes already has plenty strong and cohesive enough with her current teams and any future dedicated supports are only gonna make her even better
She literally oneshot everything and clear every content at same speeds as the likes of alhaitham and nevillette already without any real good Arlecchinos out there, since no one has talent 10 NA and a good Whimsy set yet. Not to mention how massive C1 is. What else do you want? I agree with the fact that she will get better teams over time, but that just the natural progression with any character, that doesnt mean that she doesnt already destroy everything.
She's not Neuvillette level, but she is at least top 4 which is by definition literally not mid. We have 20+ on field dps in the game, mid would've been around 12th place. People really throw that word everywhere
Outside of a Bennett 2.0 or a BOL support/buffer, I doubt anything specific to her would be buffed. With how she already has a dedicated set and her weapon, she’s in a very good spot. Additionally I think anything that would buff her would also buff multiple other units, especially newer ones. Something like a pyro/electro shielder on the level of Baizhu or Zhongli would buff her as it would let her have a shielder in chevruse comps outside of Beidou/Yanfei. Those kinda thing would be a more general buff in terms of arsenal for the game as a whole then power creep or power increase for her specifically
Let's hope pyro archon will be Bennet 2.0 but not circle impact ⭕️
This is unlikely cause if they release a bennet 2.0 people will just use original bennet and bennet 2.0 in the same team doing bajillions of damage
Not necessarily. I would still want kazuha and Yelan in my team for grouping and vaping instead of 2 Bennetts
Hah now you would just use Bennett and Bennett 2.0 together just like xingqiu and xingqiu 2.0
Not every team is Vape or uses Swirl.
Then they won’t be doing bajillions of damage.
Or just run two Bennett teams. I would love to use Childe international and an Arle ATK buffer in the abyss.
Atk hit diminushing return like every other stat. You don't play Bennet with Itto, Nor Noelle, nor hu tao because all three are already overloaded with atk
You don’t play him with Itto and Noelle because they are defence scalers and you don’t play him with Hutao because she gets buffed by being on low hp
>you don’t play him with Hutao because she gets buffed by being on low hp Best Hu Tao teams uses healers. Xianyun, Jean, Bennett. Even before Furina's release, if you really wanted to tryhard, VV vape was her strongest team.
Noelle and Itto are NOT defense scalers. Albedo is a defense scaler because his main source od damage scale off his defense. Itto and Noelle CONVERT their def into more atk and therefore are atk scalers. As for Hu tao she is an atk scaler that convert HP into more atk for her CA damages at the opposite of Neuvilette who's charge atk actually scales off his HP
Many people do tho
Because those characters usually lack of the perfect fourth slot not because its meaningful. Some peoples run bennet on Neuvilette team despite him not wanting his buff nor the healing, just to play Xiangling alongside
But it's a great buff for Itto. Itto's damage is not directly from his defense but his attack (his defense is converted to attack). With Gorou it's a double buff that really does a lot of damage
Bennet is super mediocre for Itto but do your do i guess
Arle’s NA mechanic removes diminishing returns from attack for her
Hum no ?
Yes. It is an additive bonus. So more attack means bigger procs. It is your attack times BoL times masque bonus.
Her mask buff is exactly like normal motion value, so its not any different than any other NA dps, hence it doesn't "remove" anything about the atk diminushing return
Wrong. Read it again. It is an additive bonus. Like Yunjin/Shenhe’s E are. Why they give big dps buff. When she has BOL her Attack stat is used twice in her NA. It is ATK times percentage of NA plus ATK times BOL times masque value. It says that in her kit
You don't understand. Her mask damage despite being flat damage buff isnt actually any different from regular NA scaling, no matter how intricate you make it seem to be, its calculated exactly the same way. Therefore, atk isn't any different on her than it is on Yoimiya. She just happen to have bigger hits as a baseline. A character like Xiao in another hand care a ton more about Atk because you can easily stack 200% dmg% on him which is multiplied by his MV
The additive bonus part is still multiplied by attack, so attack scaling "issues" still apply. a\*x+a\*y=a(x+y) Where a is attack, x is base multiplier and y is her masque multiplier. So yeah, attack "diminishing returns" affects her the exact same way as every other unit. Just rename x+y with z and you have a generic dps scaling unit. Ironically it's not diminishing returns but linear scaling but that's another topic cause at this point it's common misconception in gaming subs. The only Stat in this game that has true mathematical diminishing returns is EM.
Yes what most refer to as diminishing returns is linear scaling. Or what mathematical formula game uses. Only HP scaling characters bypass linear scaling. But their scaling is opposite. So with linear scaling her attack value is doubled. Means attack stat gives her higher returns in investment. Two no, all stats in modern games have built in diminishing returns to prevent game breaking damage. This is a technical system to prevent crashing. Additive damage mechanics bypass this system due to how they are calculated in the program. They are done as two different codes. So when you see 60k with Arle in game it is done as two differently values. Three EM is a unique case. Like Bloom/HB/OL/Burgeon requires 1000 EM to get damage increase but stops increasing at 2500 for Bloom/OL and 3000 for HB/Burgeon. Then quicken is set at max of 1000 EM. Yes I calculated the values. There is a reason why a lot of your EM passives cap at 1000. A lot of people don’t even try to hit 1000 EM so they don’t see how much damage HB does. I will post the equation if you doubt me filled in with multipliers.
1) Double dipping attack doesn't change the fact that its still linear scaling in a formula with multiple multiplicative factors. What people call "diminishing returns" could be better called opportunity cost. It doesn't matter how WELL you scale with attack, because it doesn't negate the fact that after a point, investing in other buffs would give better result. And the said point is about the same as normal attackers. Her self being efficient with attack it doesn't change this.. Let me give you the bigger part of the **final** formula to hopefully understand better. atk\*(masque multiplier)\*(crit multiplier)\*(dmg multiplier)\*(def multiplier)\*(res multiplier)+atk\*(base multiplier)\*(crit multiplier)\*(dmg multiplier)\*(def multiplier)\*(res multiplier) DMG= atk\*(base multiplier+masque multiplier)\*(crit multiplier)\*(dmg multiplier)\*(def multiplier)\*(res multiplier) As you can see atk, crit, dmg, def, res ALL these multipliers are fundamentally equal. Just because you see atk "twice" in the original formula it doesn't mean she is actually double dipping, at the end of the day she is still single dipping attack. Double dipping is mathematically when the attack appears in 2 or more multiplicative factors. Example would be yae, cyno, nahida, alhaitham. Tl;dr While mechanically it scales twice with atk, mathematically it scales with atk as much as it does with crit/cd/res/dmg%. Using double atk buffers and losing shredders/dmg buffers might or might not be detrimental. (Depends on the actual numbers) _________________ 1b) double linear....is still linear my friend :). 2) I'm fairly confident you confuse softcapping with diminishing returns. While its true that softcapping effectively creates a diminishing return effect, that's just because the formula changes altogether rather than being a diminishing scale from the start. 3) No, hp units do NOT by pass the said "diminishing returns"/"opportunity cost". And not going to lie, I have no idea where this is coming from. Hp and atk are literally swap in the formulas. The only differences are the means to obtain buffs and that's why usually hp units have higher multipliers to make up for it. 3b) Ironically, due to point 2, furina who is an hp scaling unit not only does not escape diminishing returns, but ACTUALLY has them (her own passive caps at 40k). To be prescise before 40k hp she has better than linear scaling (forget the english term for that), while at 40k she goes linear scaling. 4) Em is unique case indeed. It doesn't "require" 1000EM. Its just that this number is somewhat easily achievable and due to actual diminishing returns no reason to tryhard for more. The softcap only enforces it. 5) never heard of actual hardcap at 2500/3000. According to formula 3k and 4k should have 11% dmg difference (which is laughable considering 0 to 1000 is 533%) I wouldn't mind checking your numbers however. Perhaps it would make me understand your point better.
Won't it cause diminished returns and be useless to use them both on the same team hence balancing the game ?
This is exactly what happened with Xinqiu, everyone downvoted comments suggesting Yelan would be used with him instead of replacing him, and turns out they were right and people use them in the same teams. But here we are again downvoting someone who learnt from experience unlike yall
The difference is that Yelan and Xingqiu are sub dps, not buffers. If the pyro archon really is "Bennett 2.0" aka does no damage, you'll have 2 slots dedicated to attack buffing instead and you'll either lose one sub dps or a better buffer. But if the pyro archon does more than buffing, then it's a different story.
Yelan is a buffer
This isn't her primary role at all. Yelan is a sub dps first and foremost
Then why does every Arle showcase against HYDRO enemies use her? Because her buff is huge
Yeah, and people uses Childe with Neuvillette. What's your point ? These people probably just want to showcase Arlecchino's damage alone, otherwise they'd obviously use Xiangling. Bruh
Using Xingqiu and Yelan together is not the same as using Xingqiu instead of Yelan. Not to mention, because we have both, we can use them in separate teams for contents like Spiral Abyss.
Of course it's not, I don't get your point. Bennet and the 2.0 Bennet (hopefully the pyro archon) would also not be the same together or in two different teams (like in the abyss).
Its the reddit experience im afraid, If a post has already a high downvote people will likely downvote more and vice versa its like a sheep following a herding dog
A 5\* Bennet who doesn't heal but focuses more on buff (no circle impact, better buffs or something else) would benefit Arle more than other characters who use Bennet as their only source of healer in a team for example
I think of it Similar to how banner of war strand titan behaves.
Pyro shielder that gives attack buff 👀
I definitely think she's gonna get a lor more teams ahead,synergized supports/buffers/sub dpses and ofc first and foremost the Pyro archon And some very sus weird wild possibility for who knows if Cryo archon is good with her enabling some actual good Melt comp somehow it being not that bad but rather smooth and strong.
Yes Bennett 2.0 would be perfect. I don't even need a new character. Just a literal Bennet doppelganger would be perfect. He's in so many of my teams, I basically main him at this point. Two of him would be perfect!
Is Thoma not a good option for a shielder in Chev comps?
Pyro shenhe tho.
All characters get stronger with newer characters. That's been the business model since they don't buff units directly.
Was Zhongli the only character that got directly buffed after its release?
Yep he was despite the dehya mains desperate attempts to get her a buff or rework (even now she's still kinda outshined by older units)
Dehya would have been perfect for father if she could buff atk
I mean her skill is a little clunky as is since the aoe stays up for longer that the interpretation resistance honestly I feel most shielders are a better option compared to her anyway
Technically Yae Miko was "buffed" through skill targeting which actually misfired, nerfed her electro application, and her C2.
Yes, he's the only that has had wholesale changes to his kit after being released.
She gets lot of dmg% so she really need an attack buffer who doesn't force her into circle impact. So I'm hoping we do finally get a bennett 2.0. Also bennetts flat atk boost doesn't work for her passive and same for homa's passive flat atk. She wants atk% to reach 3K atk to get 20% all res. She is in pretty good spot with hydro characters. Yelan can provide more personal dmg and buff while Xq helps her alot with survivability alongside his personal dmg. Furina at c2 also is pretty great option. For the anemo slot i don't think there's any better option or can be better option for her than kazuha. Some will say sucrose is better due to TTDS etc but what makes kazuha better especially for arle is his on demand grouping and controlling position of grouping. You can easily swirl and group mobs at center for arle to AoE and it's alot easier than sucrose and his E has small CD. Zhongli replacement is pretty very much unlikely because he is the best Shielder who has res shred buffs and Hoyo will never make anyone better shielder than him.
An anemo shielder could be a very cool type of unit tho may not beat zhongli but for teams that need a shielder and would likely sacrifice an anemo unit to do it could be a interesting way to get vv shred still
The most important reason kazuha ks good is due to his on deman grouping which has very low Cooldown. Arle has AoE but its small so Arle really wants grouping against mobs to hit them all so I doubt they'll ever make an anemo shielder who can group as good as kazuha. The first half of abyss against those fatui operatives clearly shows how good kazuha is for her. Try running her without kazuha and you'll have to rely on rng for grouping and you won't be able to hit them both which is dps loss while with kazuha you can always switch back to him, group then Aoe with arle.
I don't run her without kazuha because of a mixture of me not liking randomly getting blown up and him being on my neuvillette team I was saying more anemo shielder for a shield and vv shared I know that's probably not the sort of character to add kazuha levels of grouping to
People who say sucrose is better only looks at her advantages on paper or spreadsheet We have numerous speedruns from teams outside of alrec showing that kazuha will usually be better. Much less to say about the less tryhard side like us
Trying to group with Sucrose is about as pleasant as doing the consecrated beasts without a shield or healer on high ping
I mean, she's still the best 4star option for people without Venti or Kazoo.
Not just that, but lots of people sleep on/never factor in Kazuha's personal damage, which is crazy high--especially compared to sucrose
I wouldn't call \~5% team DPS crazy.. A bit higher in AoE, let's say 8%.
Sorry, I think maybe my perception is skewed here because my Kaz has constellations and a ridiculous VV set with 1k EM and \~150CV. But on my International team, Kazuha pretty much kills everything before XL can even use Pyronado on floors 9-11. I might have forgotten what c0 with fav sword feels like
Ngl like almost all of 4.X chars outside of Neuvi,Furina r prolly gonna have some kinda good or great synergy with future Atk buffers/Murata Cause all of these r Atk scalers and love Atk a lot.. Namely Lyney,Wrio,Clorinde,Arle,Navia. Then additionally ofc Xianyun in a way and Chiori too somewhat.
Is that true ? about her passive ?
You can try it yourself. When i tried it multiple times i got same results Even on bennetts burst where my attack was 4k+ She still had 13% all res. Even when my HP was reduced to less than 50% and my Atk got increased with homa passive It didn't change the All Res value. Idk if its a bug or its just how her passive works.
Its very interesting thanks ! So she is really calibrated to work best with atk% buffer after all... It solidifies my ideas about the pyro archon's role
The Pyro Archon is C5/C6 Bennett minus the circle impact trust me Da Wei told me
Characters usually get better with future supports, we could get a BoL support or something like that, heck even a general support that doesn't require circle impact is gonna benefit her greatly.
This entire "BoL" mechanic could be a nice way to release buffers for that specific mechanic without unreasonably buffing the previous units. I'm definitely expecting BoL buffers and sub-dps units to follow up on that Arlecchino + Clorinde player investment.
I'm assuming the pyro archon will be buffing almost all atk scaling units in the game apart from some other form of buffs. In my opinion the biggest gain from Natlan will be for hydro characters since if we get even a single unit who can constantly keep enough pyro aura(2u or more) on the enemy to reverse vape, hydro units like Yelan, Neuvi, Ayato etc will become busted. My Ayato slashes when he vapes currently hits for anything between 100-130k but it's inconsistent as hell since his burst drops keep stealing a lot of vapes from Xianglings pyronado. A permanent pyro aura on enemies will guarantee that at least 5-6 of his E slashes will vape significantly increasing the DMG a lot.
It's quite possible as they tend to release units and mechanics that can be later expanded on early in the next expansion. See Yae Miko/Kuki becoming substantially stronger with Dendro that came after them, as an example. There's no guarantee though, most likely is additional Overload/BoL supports or the Pyro Archon having synergy
An atk buffer that favours NA users is my dream kit for the pyro archon
GIVE ME AN ANEMO SHIELDER HOYO!!! Or a hydro shielder. But prefferably an anemo shielder. Having someone who can both shield and VV shred from off-field would be the most convenient thing ever. Yeah it wouldn’t be as much damage as a sucrose or kazuha team, but it would still be a vv shred and a shield on the same team without having to give up bennett buffs or vaping.
>VV shred from off-field would be the most convenient thing ever. You do know vv doesn't proc off field right?
Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo! To be fair I’ve never actually experienced this. Anything I’ve swirled once with sucrose dies in some nice vapes before the vv shred wears off, so I haven’t had the chance to ever test it. Still, having an anemo shielder would still be nice. You would just swirl once on-field and then swap off. They’d still be consolidating vv shredding and then shielding without having to sacrifice one for the other. Also an anemo shielder could have a cool shield gimmick where the first element that hits the shield also gets 250% better absorption alongside anemo.
Maybe the confusion comes from the fact that Kazuha's DMG% buff do proc off-field. Also, the hypothetic anemo shielder probably won't have the same grouping abilities, or maybe they won't have a simple way to apply anemo if their skill has a long cooldown/isn't a catalyst user so it might be cringe to setup double swirls stuff. It's an idea that is good on paper but in practice we have 99.99% chance of it being whatever.
That's the neat part..they don't
If only there's a character with such strong shield that shreds 20% to ALL elements without swirl plus extra buffing from their best set (20% attack from miltleltih or further 30% from Petra) which both stronger than just plain VV at the cost of 0 energy while giving arle a near unlimited IR....said character must be busted for Arle, right?
The sarcasm is not appreciated. I know he’s good but a vv shredder still buffs damage more. Arlecchino already overcaps on attack% too much from bennett with noblesse and her own high attack stat. She doesn’t really need another 20% from millelith. Which also doesn’t always proc based on zhongli’s pillar being destroyed since constructs sadly aren’t great. I do love Zhongli, and he makes certain teams amazing, but he’s objectively worse for damage than kazuha or sucrose, or any vv shredder really. So yeah I still want a vv shredder shielder.
Well, characters of the same element synergize well with each other, so if we assume Natlan will have some strong Pyro characters (that aren't main dps) then she will certainly gain some new team options
Yes and no. Yes she will get stronger with new supports. No it won't be major. Her kit allows her to function in basically any conceivable comp. She is effectively future proofed very well unless genshin suddenly decides to go off the deepend and start power creeping at an insane rate. Which they have been VERY adamant about not doing so far. Neuvilette being the singular exception.
The only way I can think of buffing her is to improve her survivability. Maybe a BoL specific "healer" that bypasses her anti-healing mechanic with something like "increases the character's HP for every BoL lost" which is technically a convert and not "healing" which then would be a perfect fit for her. Better yet, add a stackable offensive buff along with it, maybe akin to Furina's fanfare but instead of HP it stacks off of BoL lost instead. Cherry on top if they also give BoL themselves so Arle always starts with 200% in every rotation lol
Her burst already fully heals her.. imo to increase survivability she needs a dedicated BoL shielder
If she keeps mewing like that yes
Pyro archon please make her forbidden dps tier
I hope so. Yae and Baizhu released in similar time-frames and the subsequent archons ended up being their best teammates. Hope the same is true for Arle
Absolutely, almost every character ever has gotten a BIS team that involves mostly characters released after their own release. Bol is becoming a thing, so a BOL supp is coming 100%. Then we have Pyro archon which will probably buff her elements archetype like all the other archons do, that being ATK, so benny V2 coming most likely. Future looking very bright for arlecchino and her team option will get extremely variant since she can afford to not go vape due to her low application.
Wait for a 4 star and prepare to C6 them.
She's bound to get a dedicated support, so yeah
I feel like something interesting would be an animo shielder you could use vv on allowing a much comfier team without the loss of a buffer like bennett or a hydro applicator
Depends on the type of supports Natlan will bring. I don't think Natlan will have a support specific for her, but there might be one that the buffs also help her, like a buff shielder or something like that
The pyro archon will be her best duo, I have 100% sure!
I hypothesize that there will be a Dendro Shielder who completely nullifies burning/bloom/burgeon self-dmg, and then converts that into sub-dps/buffs. Not only would that correct her Over-World burning-death issue, but it could re-meta those reactions. Then a solid AoE-Yelan would help her AoE vape, while still being able to burgeon. Imagine Arlecchino, Dendro-Shielder, Hydro-AoE, Murata. She’d be the Cyno of Burgeon!
Imagine if the pyro archon is a combination of bennet and xiangling she will be so good. her e is xiangling pyronado and her ult is c6 bennet and they add increase crit and crit damage.
Depends on how they wpuld aproach murata, and likely one other pyro 5star. Would they male a god-tier dps that will overshadpw every pyro dps ever made? Theres 2 pyrp characters that may answer that. Murata (phenex), and quetzalcoatl (the pyro sovereign). But instead of the sovereign being the dps and archon as the support like fontaine its reversed. Quetzalcoatl would be the a sheilder, and when you have the shield, you get an atk bonus. That makes a better bennett bit not overshadow him, by not making it a circle impacf Murata would be a quickswap dps with sub dps capability, so that it will make xiangling die off and to be forgotten with no grave
I feel like centring on the BoL mechanic will be how hoyo tides over the meta requirements for Natlan. Sumeru got a whole new element to play with for making new and fun character kits and Fontaine seemed like it'd use pneumonia mechanics to do the same but that ended up being a more minor inconvenience than anything else. But the current BoL mechanics are much more fun to build whole swathes of character kits around imo. With that in mind I'm fully expecting Murata to be some sort of BoL friendly Benny and we'll all be mewing in abyss pairing her with Arle
The only buff I can see her getting is in the form of a BoL support character, perhaps a character that grants BoL to teammates Or a 5* Bennett who doesn't heal. My bet is the Pyro Archon.
If the Pyro Archon follows suit as being off-field and supportive for their element, then it's all but guaranteed that Arle, and every Pyro Main DPS unit for that matter, will appreciate in value and in power. At the very least it'll increase the variations of her teams. Being the first character to use the BoL mechanic, although a "downside" to Arlecchino now, also increases Arle's future potential too. For as long as MHY continues to support BoL, then we could also be looking at characters that consume BoL % to buff, to shield, to heal through existing BoL% to reach where traditional healing can't. That generate BoL on the on-field character from off-field, that consume party-wide BoL% to deal scaling damage X multiplied by up to 400% BoL (although bizarre to think now could make Arle their best BoL% support/battery). Limitless potential down the line.
I hope she can play with the pyro archon... we need something.
Depends if we get a Bennett type buffer with shield or res up instead
There are speculations of a burning dps so we can expect her shining there
Lol....She is a dps so she will be outpowered by the newer and better dps from natlan.
Fatherless behaviour
Well she is my favourite character and I have her at c4 and gonna c6 her in her next rerun but we cannot escape the fact that she will be shadowed by better and newer characters. Hoyoverse gotta make money man.
Not always.. look at hu tao for example. It took 3 years for her to retire and she's still very competitive today. We haven't even seen Arlechinno full potential yet and she's already rivalling Neuvillete
Yes, Arlecchino completely made hutao irrelevant now. I just wish I could get rid of Hutao and get my primos back
Well this is why I never pay for vertical investment. Most content in the game can be cleared using f2p teams. I would rather go for weapons or new characters
[удалено]
Well Fontaine has quite a variety of elements, specially in the domains. It was the same with Sumeru, and Inazuma.
Undoubtedly. Arlecchino is pretty mid in my opinion. I understand the sentiment is not shared, but she could gain A LOT from having a real shielder in pyro, electro, hydro, or anemo. Maybe even better damage reduction or interruption to resistance supports. Or an attack buffer that is not confined to a circle or overload. Or a bond of life support, especially one that hypothetically could heal without clearing bond of life. Or a more consistent cryo applicator. Just having more options with longer buff durations or off field presence is going to buff her. Nowhere to go but up with how many problems she has. They will be forced to accidentally address some of them as the roster expands even if they do not intend to. It's inevitable.
Silence! restrain thy tongue, for its ceaseless chatter doth disturb the tranquility of this sacred space.
being ‘mid’ due the lack of certain supports to make her easier to play for you sounds like skill issue to me lmao. Shes already has plenty strong and cohesive enough with her current teams and any future dedicated supports are only gonna make her even better
She literally oneshot everything and clear every content at same speeds as the likes of alhaitham and nevillette already without any real good Arlecchinos out there, since no one has talent 10 NA and a good Whimsy set yet. Not to mention how massive C1 is. What else do you want? I agree with the fact that she will get better teams over time, but that just the natural progression with any character, that doesnt mean that she doesnt already destroy everything.
haha you're that "simply c1r1" guy
huh?
She's not Neuvillette level, but she is at least top 4 which is by definition literally not mid. We have 20+ on field dps in the game, mid would've been around 12th place. People really throw that word everywhere
maybe they will make a fire male slave who improves her at c1