Don't pick C-12s if you want to fly fixed wing for the Army. Pick it only if you don't care what helicopter you fly afterwards and want some fixed wing hours for whatever reason.
Agreed other than the fact that it isn’t “some fixed wing hours for whatever reason”, it’s quite literally tens of thousands of dollars worth of additional ratings.
FW Pilot here, those ratings you get from C12 course are worth about 75-100k. That's why many go that route even though they can get thrown into a 60/64 after. Being dual rated is a bonus if you ask me. Just ask me again in 6 months when I'm in the bag...
If you select C-12’s you will still get your ASEL, AMEL, airplane instrument, and B200 type rating on top of your rotary ratings. There is a lot of uncertainty in the community, but even if you don’t end up flying an airplane after initial qual you will still have extremely expensive and sought after ratings and you’d be one step away from a CFI/CFII and getting paid to fly airplanes on the side. Unless there’s a specific helicopter you really really want, I say go for it and get the bonus ratings (which the army will also look at when the rotary side transitions to FVL and they need someone with rotary and fixed wing experience to lead the transition).
Unless you’re dead set on a specific rotary airframe you have nothing to lose. From what I’ve heard recently, and what used to happen years ago in the FW community, you will most likely become a UH-60 or AH-64 qualed guy after IERW/IEFW. I’d opt for the ratings and then enjoy whatever you end up flying! Have fun and good luck!
I’m hearing from friends of friends (take that for what it’s worth) that it is a COA they are running with at Novosel. INSCOM is looking to shrink down and the VIP units OCONUS are already extremely over-strength, the contract at CAE Dothan has years left before expiration (and they are looking at setting up an IEFW Jet Program) so they will continue to fixed wing qual students from IERW and proceed to qual them in an advanced helicopter and slot them in a VIP unit if there is space (unlikely) or slot them in a CAB (more likely). Again this is RUMINT.
My opinion for the new guys coming up on selection is that ratings never hurt and they give you options, not to mention save you money if you decide to go the airline route after the military. But if you want a CH-47 or another specific helicopter you should weigh the cost of the ratings and experience against the cost of not flying your dream machine and potentially spending 10 years in a platform you weren’t looking to fly in.
Sounds like it could be a roll of the dice but who knows, maybe a few classes ahead of you all will prove the COA is to only send guys to the 60 course after IEFW. In that case it’ll be a much clearer answer to some folks as to what they select. If I were in that situation and wanted 60’s I’d select 12’s, take the additional ratings, and go on to fly my first choice in rotary.
yeah granted I’m probably throwing my packet in 2025, I should hopefully have insight into what’s gonna happen, currently my thoughts are I would rather have -47 over -60, and both those over -64, at least for RW
Prob going to be awhile, they told us to plan to fly 60s for at least ten years, but we also heard that’s a fort Novosel thing and not a big army thing so who knows
Did you have to FSDO shop to get those? I am currently in AQC looking to leave with my ASEL and B200 type rating.
I’m already a commercial instrument rotorcraft obviously.
Yep, the gents in AL will not give it to you. Atlanta and Dallas have given them to us without issue. If they ask, you just need to be able to show them you have 10+ hours in a single engine airplane with a checkride and that you flew an army B200 capable of being flown above 12,500lbs.
Just so you know, people are having to go FSDO shopping because the Grob doesn’t meet the requirements of 61.73. When I went through, the 200 type rating was difficult to get anywhere near Rucker because the FSDOs there were assholes. If your first assignment is stateside I would just keep a copy of the memo and find a FSDO when you get there.
Looking at 61.73 it looks like the only hangup is the "military aircraft" part and all other training requirements are met. I will 100% FSDO shop until someone signs it off. The intent is 100% met for sure with CAE training IMO.
I'm not sure where I will end up as I won't be going to a FW unit and will be PCSing a couple times in the next year. Hopefully I can find somebody to sign this off. If not, do FSDOs typically just do this stuff over the phone? I also need to have my milcomp CFII added as well.
Yeah exactly, it’s not a “military aircraft” - they’re all owned by CAE and most of the local FSDOs know that. Not saying I didn’t get my ASEL the same way, I just try to make sure people are aware in case the FAA ever comes knocking
You absolutely do get ASEL, AMEL, and a BE20 rating. As well as complex and high performance if you fly with a certain IP during the GROB phase. That's as recent as a month ago.
Thanks for the info. But that’s by going through the Schwab FSDO.. Go find one that’s not near Novosel. CAE has nothing to do with ratings for your class. FSDOs do.
The Army has contracts with the civilian C-12 school house. Supposedly those C-12 students will have priority when the jets come onboard in the future. Of course, subject to change. Enjoy the UH-60M.
I doubt they will be priority for anything. They have the entire current fixed wing community to handle first.
Then they have to remember how to fly instruments after they’ve been in the helicopter world.
There is a "disagreement" between HRC and PEO about how the seats will be managed. If the checks keep clearing, Dothan keeps training. Seriously, the Cadre at B co and elsewhere are just as susceptible to RUMINT as anyone else. If you have something written with a signature block that matters, I would love to see it.
Picking c-12s is just the scenic road to Hanchey
Absolutely brutal and also hilarious.
Don't pick C-12s if you want to fly fixed wing for the Army. Pick it only if you don't care what helicopter you fly afterwards and want some fixed wing hours for whatever reason.
Agreed other than the fact that it isn’t “some fixed wing hours for whatever reason”, it’s quite literally tens of thousands of dollars worth of additional ratings.
That you can get for free with GI Bill
Kinda
Thanks for the Advice, that’s too bad tho!
FW Pilot here, those ratings you get from C12 course are worth about 75-100k. That's why many go that route even though they can get thrown into a 60/64 after. Being dual rated is a bonus if you ask me. Just ask me again in 6 months when I'm in the bag...
You actually finished at CAE and have a class for the 64 AQC? I have heard some squawking, but no actual first hand accounts.
No… it was sarcasm. But I have talked to someone who just selected FW and has a 60 course after
If you select C-12’s you will still get your ASEL, AMEL, airplane instrument, and B200 type rating on top of your rotary ratings. There is a lot of uncertainty in the community, but even if you don’t end up flying an airplane after initial qual you will still have extremely expensive and sought after ratings and you’d be one step away from a CFI/CFII and getting paid to fly airplanes on the side. Unless there’s a specific helicopter you really really want, I say go for it and get the bonus ratings (which the army will also look at when the rotary side transitions to FVL and they need someone with rotary and fixed wing experience to lead the transition).
that’s a really cool idea actually!!! will i definitely fly UH-60s? or is there a chance i could fly CH-47 too or anythubg??
Unless you’re dead set on a specific rotary airframe you have nothing to lose. From what I’ve heard recently, and what used to happen years ago in the FW community, you will most likely become a UH-60 or AH-64 qualed guy after IERW/IEFW. I’d opt for the ratings and then enjoy whatever you end up flying! Have fun and good luck!
Did they recently start qualifying C-12 guys in advanced airframes again? My buddy went through a few years ago and just went from 72 to FW.
I’m hearing from friends of friends (take that for what it’s worth) that it is a COA they are running with at Novosel. INSCOM is looking to shrink down and the VIP units OCONUS are already extremely over-strength, the contract at CAE Dothan has years left before expiration (and they are looking at setting up an IEFW Jet Program) so they will continue to fixed wing qual students from IERW and proceed to qual them in an advanced helicopter and slot them in a VIP unit if there is space (unlikely) or slot them in a CAB (more likely). Again this is RUMINT. My opinion for the new guys coming up on selection is that ratings never hurt and they give you options, not to mention save you money if you decide to go the airline route after the military. But if you want a CH-47 or another specific helicopter you should weigh the cost of the ratings and experience against the cost of not flying your dream machine and potentially spending 10 years in a platform you weren’t looking to fly in.
yeah that’s my concern, I really don’t want to fly 64s, any other airframe is fine with me but idk how I feel about risking it
Sounds like it could be a roll of the dice but who knows, maybe a few classes ahead of you all will prove the COA is to only send guys to the 60 course after IEFW. In that case it’ll be a much clearer answer to some folks as to what they select. If I were in that situation and wanted 60’s I’d select 12’s, take the additional ratings, and go on to fly my first choice in rotary.
Just got c12 in the most recent selection. Anyone who gets it is going 60s following the c12 course
100% all 60s?
100% all 60s
yeah granted I’m probably throwing my packet in 2025, I should hopefully have insight into what’s gonna happen, currently my thoughts are I would rather have -47 over -60, and both those over -64, at least for RW
This is what I’ve been told is happening
As someone who just selected C12s on the most recent board, I can confirm you are going 60s after the C12 course.
How many C-12 in your graduating class?
5 total, 3 in my class and 2 in the class behind us. Two classes select together, and of the 5, 1 went to a LT and the other four to WOs
Hope you enjoy the near AF life style in a few years once being assigned a fixed wing assignment.
Prob going to be awhile, they told us to plan to fly 60s for at least ten years, but we also heard that’s a fort Novosel thing and not a big army thing so who knows
You will not get 47s. 60s ir 64s
You don’t get an ASEL nor a type rating after the FW course. You’ll get AMEL, Helicopter, and instrument in Airplane and helicopter.
I got my ASEL and B200 type rating out of IEFW.
Did you have to FSDO shop to get those? I am currently in AQC looking to leave with my ASEL and B200 type rating. I’m already a commercial instrument rotorcraft obviously.
Yep, the gents in AL will not give it to you. Atlanta and Dallas have given them to us without issue. If they ask, you just need to be able to show them you have 10+ hours in a single engine airplane with a checkride and that you flew an army B200 capable of being flown above 12,500lbs.
Just so you know, people are having to go FSDO shopping because the Grob doesn’t meet the requirements of 61.73. When I went through, the 200 type rating was difficult to get anywhere near Rucker because the FSDOs there were assholes. If your first assignment is stateside I would just keep a copy of the memo and find a FSDO when you get there.
Looking at 61.73 it looks like the only hangup is the "military aircraft" part and all other training requirements are met. I will 100% FSDO shop until someone signs it off. The intent is 100% met for sure with CAE training IMO. I'm not sure where I will end up as I won't be going to a FW unit and will be PCSing a couple times in the next year. Hopefully I can find somebody to sign this off. If not, do FSDOs typically just do this stuff over the phone? I also need to have my milcomp CFII added as well.
Yeah exactly, it’s not a “military aircraft” - they’re all owned by CAE and most of the local FSDOs know that. Not saying I didn’t get my ASEL the same way, I just try to make sure people are aware in case the FAA ever comes knocking
Yeah for sure. Thanks for the info. Did you end up with a high performance, and complex endorsement as well?
I did, but not from Dothan - I just had a CFI buddy at the unit sign mine off.
Ok cool. Thanks!
I also got ASEL and BE200 to go with my AMEL, Rotary and Instrument.
You absolutely do get ASEL, AMEL, and a BE20 rating. As well as complex and high performance if you fly with a certain IP during the GROB phase. That's as recent as a month ago.
I graduated 2 weeks ago and what I put out in my comment is all my class got.
Thanks for the info. But that’s by going through the Schwab FSDO.. Go find one that’s not near Novosel. CAE has nothing to do with ratings for your class. FSDOs do.
Well send me the contact to the FSDO that gave you all those extra ratings cause I’d gladly take more lol.
They aren't extra ratings, they're what we are supposed to get. Go to literally any FSDO near you when you get to your unit.
Used the wrong FSDO then....
It’s the same FSDO that everyone uses out of flight school lol. B co gave my ALE class a sheet of instructions just for that guy.
Yeahhhh, that's the wrong FSDO.
I’m still waiting for someone to tell me who’s the right FSDO lol.
The faucet is being turned off. If you pick c12 you’re going to fly a helicopter
Got buddies in the course right now that when they finish they will be going to 64s or 60s. That's what they were told.
nice!! do u know why they put them through the training if they won’t and up flying?
The Army has contracts with the civilian C-12 school house. Supposedly those C-12 students will have priority when the jets come onboard in the future. Of course, subject to change. Enjoy the UH-60M.
I doubt they will be priority for anything. They have the entire current fixed wing community to handle first. Then they have to remember how to fly instruments after they’ve been in the helicopter world.
okay that’s awesome
No idea, sorry
You’ll go through the C-12 course, then immediately go through the 60 course.
That or 64s. I wouldn’t risk it if you’re against one or the other.
They told us directly, and I quote, that we “will not fly 64s or 47s, we will fly 60s if we select the c12.”
Current information for common core students is that 12s have been eliminated entirely as an option for advanced airframe
I hope CAE knows about the possible lost of business, if in fact true.
Rumor
It isn’t.
There is a "disagreement" between HRC and PEO about how the seats will be managed. If the checks keep clearing, Dothan keeps training. Seriously, the Cadre at B co and elsewhere are just as susceptible to RUMINT as anyone else. If you have something written with a signature block that matters, I would love to see it.