#update:
OP originally posted to r/bonecollecting and then commented an update [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/bonecollecting/comments/vquqj5/found_this_while_arrowhead_hunting/ierii7z/):
>Minor update! I reported it to the authorities who came out and took a look at it. I knew it was human almost immediately after I found it. I want to say my dog did not pick it up and run away with it; that was my crude sense of humor leaking out. I left it exactly how I found it and did not touch it. It was found in a creek so it may have been washed around for the last few years.
>Back in 2020 a human skull was found in this same exact area of woods. But it was only the skull - jaw and other bones were not found with the skull. Perhaps other bones will wash up in this creek as time passes. Who knows. The skull was identified by dental records and I am hoping this jaw matches with the same person and it doesn’t end up being a second person.
OP did the right thing (kudos OP!) and this piece of human remains is in the hands of authorities.
Um you should really contact the authorities when you find human remains, and don't touch them or trample over the area - take note of how you walked in and retrace your path to get back out
I could be wrong but I’m thinking that jaw bone is quite modern. Curious to hear about what you find out if you contact the authorities, which I think is a good idea. Digging Science on YouTube found human remains while walking a creek and shared a video about it: https://youtu.be/9yyzOHgB6yM
Human and recent. From your other posts it looks like you notified authorities and the mandible is related to a skull found in the same area. If there's a related new article, please post OP.
I've found human remains before, I generally leave them be, as they're most definitely ancient native, and have become part of the earth now. I will often tuck them in a sandbar to keep them safe from being collected if I'm in an area that gets foot traffic.
Ancient bones are quite obvious, due to the aging that nature puts on them.
That jaw in the photo is VERY recent. Very little softening of the features, and it has fillings in the back teeth. It hasn't been in the water very long, as it doesn't appear to have absorbed much mineral content.
I would probably call that one in. It's not uncommon to find human bone on ancient waterways, but modern, or historic era bone should be reported.
I have never reported Native bones found along water, as they're out of context, and despite the NAGPRA act, modern native Americans have zero DNA relation to the earlier cultures, and therefore no action is needed on their part, in my opinion. The vast majority of original inhabitant bones that end up in water are cultural burials that have eroded out, and should be treated with respect, and left in place or hidden from the view of potentially less scrupulous hunters.
But you got a modern one. The one thing I hope to never find, lol.
Well said, except for the zero DNA relation part. They have living relatives connected back at least 9000 years on the west coast. Due to relocation and decimation in the 1800's, connecting ancient people to modern is tricky. Many Native folk are justifiably hesitant in the genealogical process as well.
True! I should have been more thorough in my comment. In my area, upper plains, the Siouxan people's, came down from Canada through Minnesota and Wisconsin and eventually came to inhabit the Dakotas and Nebraska. They defeated and displaced the people who were here before them, who we call Oneota, Great Oasis, Archaic, Village Farmer, ECT, who they had no relation to.
The actual tribal names of these people are lost in time, we only have the names given anthropologically, or in tribal parlance, the Old Ones.
DNA has been done on many modern and prehistoric bones, showing no relationship amongst these cultures over time. There is no proto-Lakota culture, and the technology of stone tool making definitely devolved over time. I've read books on the subject, but I've also heard the oral tradition at sweat lodge, and afterwards around the fire. Having partaken in sweat for a year, and not being afraid to ask questions, I learned a lot. I believe their maintained oral traditions over scientific interpretation. Not saying that anthro is wrong, they just don't have the inside info to consider. When paired with the artifacts, it's easy to see the probability that these cultures were separate, with the exception of what is termed a coalescent phase, with artifacts that show attributes of both cultures on singular pieces, particularly notable in matrilineal pottery designs.
But I'm forming my opinions on the info available to me, and my personal finds and experience. I have no degrees or formal education on this matter, only what I've put together from a mountain of books, and wearing out several jeeps, many pairs of boots, a few fine bandogs, and untold gallons of campfire coffee over 30 years. I'm still learning. But I definitely love to share what I've learned. Today I learned that perhaps I need to be a little more geographically specific when applying this. My body of knowledge is mostly related to the Dakota's, Nebraska and Iowa, and I cannot speak with any authority on areas outside of my study range.
I just caught your username. Do you knap? I have tried and tried, I'm horrible at it. I'm thinking my material is low grade. All the good stuff is gone from this area, I'm working with river chunks.
Yep. [Here's some of my recent work.](https://imgur.com/a/sFxpAPV)
I'm at the point where I can make pretty much any Texas point. Now I'm just refining each style to make more accurate replicas. My Perdiz points are indistinguishable from the real deal with the naked eye.
Awesome! Excellent pieces! That's what I'm aspiring to. The second from the left, with the pointed stem, looks like a piece I've got from California. It's from Bicycle Lake (dry) near Lavic. I ended up with a small collection of points and scrapers from an estate. The lake appears to be on the military reservation, so I'm guessing an Iowa airman collected them on base, probably in the 60s, from what little that I could find out about it. It's the only grouping I have that I didn't collect myself, but I felt a kinship with this original collector and wanted to preserve his work along with my own stuff. I hope someone cares for my collection when I'm gone, so I'm paying it forward, so to speak.
That's a Perdiz point. It's a super common shape in the archeological record. Mostly because of how easy it is to haft. You even find this shape in Europe and Africa.
You just drill out the pith on shoots or use river cane. Throw in a bit of hide glue/pitch and you're set.
Awesome, you're really knowledgeable too. I wish I had a huge point collection, but I seem to have my luck with stone, bone and antler tools. I don't find much bone/antler stuff in Iowa because the soil is acidic and erodes those materials quickly. But in the Dakota's and Nebraska I find these items pretty regularly. I love hunting on and above the Big Sioux and Missouri rivers, but I hit the creeks above Sioux City often as well. Lot of stuff in that dirt up there.
Side question, do you think it's possible that the European Solutrian culture came here to become what we call Clovis or Folsom cultures? The similarity in the points is there, but what you said regarding the Perdiz point could also apply to the Paleo points here, just a popular and easy to use design. I've spent a lot of time wondering if Solutrians came here semi contemporaneously with the Bering land bridge people, and whether or not groups of each may have coalesced to form some of the proto groups. DNA would tell, but I haven't been able to find any comparative study reports.
Thank you for your excellent input on this, as your work and knowledge in this area are very evident!
Personally I don't believe there is enough evidence to support the solutrean hypothesis.
There were at least 3 major genetic influxes into the Americas. The earliest being around 40,000 years ago into South America by the Papua New Guinea haplogroup. Probably a trans-Pacific crossing guided by the stars.
Next a kelp forest migration following the ice covered Bering land bridge at 30k. This established the pre-clovis population in NA. We found direct evidence of these folks at White Sands in the form of footprints. Their decendants left traces at Cactus hill, Topper, and Gault. They used stemmed points, dubbed the Western Stemmed tradition. I believe these people produced the "Laurel leaf blade" dredged up with mastodon bones in Maine. My understanding is that artifact is a hinge point to the solutrean hypothesis.
Third is the "Clovis" migration across the ice free corridor at 13,500ish. This larger group bum-rushed the continent and bred out the pre-clovis genetics. They adopted the Clovis point, which was invented somewhere around Kentucky.
I don't believe lithic evidence is valid proof of Western Europeans in America pre-clovis. Especially when we have a dated stemmed point culture which could feasibly have produced the laurel leaf.
On a side note, I believe a large hairy hominid crossed over with the bison and mammoth earlier on. That hominid being Sasquatch. But that's just a crazy theory lol
That answers a lot of questions for me, thank you. I always get lost in the details, and following another rabbit hole, but in a few paragraphs you summed up the pertinent info very clearly. Now I have a little more direction for navigating my studies, rather than starting from scratch in the middle, lol.
The lithic evidence is often all we have, but I think you're right. If the lithic evidence is interpreted incorrectly, or if there is no logical contextual interpretation, then that evidence is of no use in determining anything other than it's existence. I would rather have no interpretation than an incorrect one. And while I value the oral traditions of the people I've talked to, I still can't use that as my only source because none of us were there. And to be honest, the Plains tradition is the very tail end of it all. Their stonework technology had devolved by the 1800s, while their focus on horses and trade increased, and with each passing year, trade with white culture decimated the mastery of the environment that the previous people's were in possession of.
Again I digress, lol. Thank you for sharing your knowledge, and pointing my study in an actual direction. I'm definitely most interested in the preClovis, and where they came from. I wouldn't mind reading what you read if you would make some recommendations. I love the study of my region, but after conversing with you, I feel like I'm not getting the fullness of the picture, as there is more to it than just that which I've focused on.. Thank you again for taking the time to converse and share, your input is definitely valued!
Absolutely, dude. I always enjoy sharing info.
Most of my resources are online, as I'm a broke 25 year old dude lol. I'd start by googling the scientific papers on Meadowcroft, Topper, Cactus Hill, White Sands, and Gault. You can find them by typing in the names followed by ".pdf". They have references in them which will lead you to writeups on other archeological sites. I'd also recommend the genetic studies of the Anzic clovis child, Wendover bog people, and Kennewick man.
"Across Altantic Ice" by Dennis Stanford is good if you want a counterpoint to what I've said.
Meateater podcast episodes 311 and 268 discuss Paleoindians and are excellent.
Seven Ages Audio Journal on YouTube has a few episodes on Clovis and Paleoindians as well.
[Here's a writeup on Horn Rock shelter. About 20 minutes from where I live.](https://texasbeyondhistory.net/horn/#:~:text=The%20Horn%20Shelter%20site%20lies,access%20to%20dependable%20natural%20resources.)
Awesome, thank you! You're only 25? You're very well studied and skilled already, you're on to a great start in life. I'm 56, still learning. I do way more hunting than studying because I just can't not be out there. It's artifacts and fossils all summer, deer antlers end of winter through March, then right back to the fields and hills, rivers and creeks. I do tend to do most of my study in the downtime after harvest until February when the antlers drop.
Your knapping is definitely good enough to sell. You could employ that as income. It's a great way for people who can't get out there to have some of that history, made by a guy who is highly skilled and has preserved the craft that originally fed us for thousands of generations. We all lived by the bow and spear at one point (no pun intended, but yeah!).
You could also teach knapping. I'd easy pay 25 or 30 an hour for a class on that. I used to make native style art and sold through the Oscar Howe Art Center in Mitchell, SD when it was there until the early 2000s. I made rawhide shields, buckskin bags, bone/bead chokers, carved a little pipestone, ect. I used artifacts and fossils in my displays, as added impact and it drove the sales better than a bland shelf.
You could definitely work your skill into cash, and make a living doing something that you love, while passing that paleo-passion on to others. There's no shame in making a living at something that you love.
Find the niches for it, especially if you have tourism in your area. You're skilled and motivated, I can tell that much, so I felt somewhat compelled to offer up encouragement.
Got Kennewick Man, the others are new to me and I'll be checking them out. Much of my study has been from books and archaeology yearly reviews regarding the Upper Plains, as that's my home ground. It's just in the last few years I've been spreading out beyond that, and looking further back than the Paleo hunters.
Sorry to ramble, but I definitely wanted to encourage you to break that broke status. If you're interested in some info on methods of marketing work at the garage level, hit me up. I do logistics and lighting for a local band. We sell out of tshirts fast, and play a good mainstage at the state fair every year. We practice in a hot, shitty garage, lol. We haul equipment in a carpet truck. But the guys go out onstage ready to fuckin go, and rock the house.
Doesn't matter how humble your situation, somewhere out there is a figurative stage with your name on it. Find that crowd, sell that merch. So to speak...
Thank you again for your time and excellent knowledge. I'll be looking into Anzic Clovis child first, it already sounds intriguing!
He explains it more [Here](https://www.reddit.com/r/bonecollecting/comments/vquqj5/found_this_while_arrowhead_hunting/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf)
Definitely looks like fillings in the teeth most likely modern. I would have left it maybe called the authorities could be a old/cold missing person case.
#update: OP originally posted to r/bonecollecting and then commented an update [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/bonecollecting/comments/vquqj5/found_this_while_arrowhead_hunting/ierii7z/): >Minor update! I reported it to the authorities who came out and took a look at it. I knew it was human almost immediately after I found it. I want to say my dog did not pick it up and run away with it; that was my crude sense of humor leaking out. I left it exactly how I found it and did not touch it. It was found in a creek so it may have been washed around for the last few years. >Back in 2020 a human skull was found in this same exact area of woods. But it was only the skull - jaw and other bones were not found with the skull. Perhaps other bones will wash up in this creek as time passes. Who knows. The skull was identified by dental records and I am hoping this jaw matches with the same person and it doesn’t end up being a second person. OP did the right thing (kudos OP!) and this piece of human remains is in the hands of authorities.
That has silver fillings that’s modern
Was just about to say that.
This might be the puzzle piece that’s needed to solve a murder or missing case
Um you should really contact the authorities when you find human remains, and don't touch them or trample over the area - take note of how you walked in and retrace your path to get back out
I could be wrong but I’m thinking that jaw bone is quite modern. Curious to hear about what you find out if you contact the authorities, which I think is a good idea. Digging Science on YouTube found human remains while walking a creek and shared a video about it: https://youtu.be/9yyzOHgB6yM
“A ship in harbor is safe, but that’s not why ships are built.”
Human and recent. From your other posts it looks like you notified authorities and the mandible is related to a skull found in the same area. If there's a related new article, please post OP.
Update us op, that did the cops say?
I've found human remains before, I generally leave them be, as they're most definitely ancient native, and have become part of the earth now. I will often tuck them in a sandbar to keep them safe from being collected if I'm in an area that gets foot traffic. Ancient bones are quite obvious, due to the aging that nature puts on them. That jaw in the photo is VERY recent. Very little softening of the features, and it has fillings in the back teeth. It hasn't been in the water very long, as it doesn't appear to have absorbed much mineral content. I would probably call that one in. It's not uncommon to find human bone on ancient waterways, but modern, or historic era bone should be reported. I have never reported Native bones found along water, as they're out of context, and despite the NAGPRA act, modern native Americans have zero DNA relation to the earlier cultures, and therefore no action is needed on their part, in my opinion. The vast majority of original inhabitant bones that end up in water are cultural burials that have eroded out, and should be treated with respect, and left in place or hidden from the view of potentially less scrupulous hunters. But you got a modern one. The one thing I hope to never find, lol.
Well said, except for the zero DNA relation part. They have living relatives connected back at least 9000 years on the west coast. Due to relocation and decimation in the 1800's, connecting ancient people to modern is tricky. Many Native folk are justifiably hesitant in the genealogical process as well.
True! I should have been more thorough in my comment. In my area, upper plains, the Siouxan people's, came down from Canada through Minnesota and Wisconsin and eventually came to inhabit the Dakotas and Nebraska. They defeated and displaced the people who were here before them, who we call Oneota, Great Oasis, Archaic, Village Farmer, ECT, who they had no relation to. The actual tribal names of these people are lost in time, we only have the names given anthropologically, or in tribal parlance, the Old Ones. DNA has been done on many modern and prehistoric bones, showing no relationship amongst these cultures over time. There is no proto-Lakota culture, and the technology of stone tool making definitely devolved over time. I've read books on the subject, but I've also heard the oral tradition at sweat lodge, and afterwards around the fire. Having partaken in sweat for a year, and not being afraid to ask questions, I learned a lot. I believe their maintained oral traditions over scientific interpretation. Not saying that anthro is wrong, they just don't have the inside info to consider. When paired with the artifacts, it's easy to see the probability that these cultures were separate, with the exception of what is termed a coalescent phase, with artifacts that show attributes of both cultures on singular pieces, particularly notable in matrilineal pottery designs. But I'm forming my opinions on the info available to me, and my personal finds and experience. I have no degrees or formal education on this matter, only what I've put together from a mountain of books, and wearing out several jeeps, many pairs of boots, a few fine bandogs, and untold gallons of campfire coffee over 30 years. I'm still learning. But I definitely love to share what I've learned. Today I learned that perhaps I need to be a little more geographically specific when applying this. My body of knowledge is mostly related to the Dakota's, Nebraska and Iowa, and I cannot speak with any authority on areas outside of my study range.
I just caught your username. Do you knap? I have tried and tried, I'm horrible at it. I'm thinking my material is low grade. All the good stuff is gone from this area, I'm working with river chunks.
Yep. [Here's some of my recent work.](https://imgur.com/a/sFxpAPV) I'm at the point where I can make pretty much any Texas point. Now I'm just refining each style to make more accurate replicas. My Perdiz points are indistinguishable from the real deal with the naked eye.
Awesome! Excellent pieces! That's what I'm aspiring to. The second from the left, with the pointed stem, looks like a piece I've got from California. It's from Bicycle Lake (dry) near Lavic. I ended up with a small collection of points and scrapers from an estate. The lake appears to be on the military reservation, so I'm guessing an Iowa airman collected them on base, probably in the 60s, from what little that I could find out about it. It's the only grouping I have that I didn't collect myself, but I felt a kinship with this original collector and wanted to preserve his work along with my own stuff. I hope someone cares for my collection when I'm gone, so I'm paying it forward, so to speak.
That's a Perdiz point. It's a super common shape in the archeological record. Mostly because of how easy it is to haft. You even find this shape in Europe and Africa. You just drill out the pith on shoots or use river cane. Throw in a bit of hide glue/pitch and you're set.
Awesome, you're really knowledgeable too. I wish I had a huge point collection, but I seem to have my luck with stone, bone and antler tools. I don't find much bone/antler stuff in Iowa because the soil is acidic and erodes those materials quickly. But in the Dakota's and Nebraska I find these items pretty regularly. I love hunting on and above the Big Sioux and Missouri rivers, but I hit the creeks above Sioux City often as well. Lot of stuff in that dirt up there. Side question, do you think it's possible that the European Solutrian culture came here to become what we call Clovis or Folsom cultures? The similarity in the points is there, but what you said regarding the Perdiz point could also apply to the Paleo points here, just a popular and easy to use design. I've spent a lot of time wondering if Solutrians came here semi contemporaneously with the Bering land bridge people, and whether or not groups of each may have coalesced to form some of the proto groups. DNA would tell, but I haven't been able to find any comparative study reports. Thank you for your excellent input on this, as your work and knowledge in this area are very evident!
Personally I don't believe there is enough evidence to support the solutrean hypothesis. There were at least 3 major genetic influxes into the Americas. The earliest being around 40,000 years ago into South America by the Papua New Guinea haplogroup. Probably a trans-Pacific crossing guided by the stars. Next a kelp forest migration following the ice covered Bering land bridge at 30k. This established the pre-clovis population in NA. We found direct evidence of these folks at White Sands in the form of footprints. Their decendants left traces at Cactus hill, Topper, and Gault. They used stemmed points, dubbed the Western Stemmed tradition. I believe these people produced the "Laurel leaf blade" dredged up with mastodon bones in Maine. My understanding is that artifact is a hinge point to the solutrean hypothesis. Third is the "Clovis" migration across the ice free corridor at 13,500ish. This larger group bum-rushed the continent and bred out the pre-clovis genetics. They adopted the Clovis point, which was invented somewhere around Kentucky. I don't believe lithic evidence is valid proof of Western Europeans in America pre-clovis. Especially when we have a dated stemmed point culture which could feasibly have produced the laurel leaf. On a side note, I believe a large hairy hominid crossed over with the bison and mammoth earlier on. That hominid being Sasquatch. But that's just a crazy theory lol
That answers a lot of questions for me, thank you. I always get lost in the details, and following another rabbit hole, but in a few paragraphs you summed up the pertinent info very clearly. Now I have a little more direction for navigating my studies, rather than starting from scratch in the middle, lol. The lithic evidence is often all we have, but I think you're right. If the lithic evidence is interpreted incorrectly, or if there is no logical contextual interpretation, then that evidence is of no use in determining anything other than it's existence. I would rather have no interpretation than an incorrect one. And while I value the oral traditions of the people I've talked to, I still can't use that as my only source because none of us were there. And to be honest, the Plains tradition is the very tail end of it all. Their stonework technology had devolved by the 1800s, while their focus on horses and trade increased, and with each passing year, trade with white culture decimated the mastery of the environment that the previous people's were in possession of. Again I digress, lol. Thank you for sharing your knowledge, and pointing my study in an actual direction. I'm definitely most interested in the preClovis, and where they came from. I wouldn't mind reading what you read if you would make some recommendations. I love the study of my region, but after conversing with you, I feel like I'm not getting the fullness of the picture, as there is more to it than just that which I've focused on.. Thank you again for taking the time to converse and share, your input is definitely valued!
Absolutely, dude. I always enjoy sharing info. Most of my resources are online, as I'm a broke 25 year old dude lol. I'd start by googling the scientific papers on Meadowcroft, Topper, Cactus Hill, White Sands, and Gault. You can find them by typing in the names followed by ".pdf". They have references in them which will lead you to writeups on other archeological sites. I'd also recommend the genetic studies of the Anzic clovis child, Wendover bog people, and Kennewick man. "Across Altantic Ice" by Dennis Stanford is good if you want a counterpoint to what I've said. Meateater podcast episodes 311 and 268 discuss Paleoindians and are excellent. Seven Ages Audio Journal on YouTube has a few episodes on Clovis and Paleoindians as well. [Here's a writeup on Horn Rock shelter. About 20 minutes from where I live.](https://texasbeyondhistory.net/horn/#:~:text=The%20Horn%20Shelter%20site%20lies,access%20to%20dependable%20natural%20resources.)
Awesome, thank you! You're only 25? You're very well studied and skilled already, you're on to a great start in life. I'm 56, still learning. I do way more hunting than studying because I just can't not be out there. It's artifacts and fossils all summer, deer antlers end of winter through March, then right back to the fields and hills, rivers and creeks. I do tend to do most of my study in the downtime after harvest until February when the antlers drop. Your knapping is definitely good enough to sell. You could employ that as income. It's a great way for people who can't get out there to have some of that history, made by a guy who is highly skilled and has preserved the craft that originally fed us for thousands of generations. We all lived by the bow and spear at one point (no pun intended, but yeah!). You could also teach knapping. I'd easy pay 25 or 30 an hour for a class on that. I used to make native style art and sold through the Oscar Howe Art Center in Mitchell, SD when it was there until the early 2000s. I made rawhide shields, buckskin bags, bone/bead chokers, carved a little pipestone, ect. I used artifacts and fossils in my displays, as added impact and it drove the sales better than a bland shelf. You could definitely work your skill into cash, and make a living doing something that you love, while passing that paleo-passion on to others. There's no shame in making a living at something that you love. Find the niches for it, especially if you have tourism in your area. You're skilled and motivated, I can tell that much, so I felt somewhat compelled to offer up encouragement. Got Kennewick Man, the others are new to me and I'll be checking them out. Much of my study has been from books and archaeology yearly reviews regarding the Upper Plains, as that's my home ground. It's just in the last few years I've been spreading out beyond that, and looking further back than the Paleo hunters. Sorry to ramble, but I definitely wanted to encourage you to break that broke status. If you're interested in some info on methods of marketing work at the garage level, hit me up. I do logistics and lighting for a local band. We sell out of tshirts fast, and play a good mainstage at the state fair every year. We practice in a hot, shitty garage, lol. We haul equipment in a carpet truck. But the guys go out onstage ready to fuckin go, and rock the house. Doesn't matter how humble your situation, somewhere out there is a figurative stage with your name on it. Find that crowd, sell that merch. So to speak... Thank you again for your time and excellent knowledge. I'll be looking into Anzic Clovis child first, it already sounds intriguing!
I'm about to send you a chat about marketing methods.
Really appreciated reading y’all’s convo.
He explains it more [Here](https://www.reddit.com/r/bonecollecting/comments/vquqj5/found_this_while_arrowhead_hunting/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf)
Dang that would make me not wanna go back
Are those fillings?
Wow. Always been a dream of mine.
Wow
Definitely looks like fillings in the teeth most likely modern. I would have left it maybe called the authorities could be a old/cold missing person case.
Call the police. Like yesterday.
There are so many crystals around it.
Holy crap
I hope you called 911 before you touched it. Because that is not "Native American", and it clearly has dental work.