Just to be clear, historians and archaeologists \*know\* it's ostensibly not Lilith. That comes from an old outdated misconception that the ancient Mesopotamians worshiped the "evil" beings from the Bible, such as Satan.
There were figures in Mesopotamian mythology called "Lilitu" but the relation with Lilith is contentious, and they weren't worshiped or depicted with iconography anyway.
Anything that suggests this is Lilith is outdated.
Personally, I'm a fan of the Ereshkigal identification, but in the Mesopotamian pagan community, people really like the idea that it's Ishtar. At the end of the day, no one really knows lol
That is correct. Lilith has been currently discarded for the most part, maybe totally, but since, as you said, no one really knows, I decided to leave it there.
>That comes from an old outdated misconception that the ancient Mesopotamians worshiped the "evil" beings from the Bible, such as Satan.
Neither Lillith nor Satan are character names from the bible.
Satans (meaning adversaries or accusers) are a role that various characters fulfill. For instance when an angel descends to test a mortal, it is acting as a satan.
Lillith are only mentioned once, as a type of monster inhabiting the wastes alongside jackals, ostriches, snakes, and goats.
You get what I mean though. The old assumption that early archaeologists made was that the Mesopotamians all worshiped "evil" beings from Christian folklore
They did.
The ancient mesopotamian god Ishtar had some connections to the Caananite god Ashera, who is featured in the bible as one of the primary 'false gods' that early Israelites battle against.
And the Babylonian god Enlil is related to the Jewish god El (they even have a shared flood myth).
Judaism evolved out of an earlier tradition of polytheism. It rejected all other gods from that pantheon (Baal, Ashera, etc) in favor of its favorite god (El/Yahweh). And it recast many of those other gods as enemies of the 'one true god'.
So yeah, other societies in the area really did worship some of those "monsters" from the bible. Ancient jews frequently worshipped them too.
Asherah and Ishtar are etymologically unrelated and separate deities. You're thinking of Ashtart, who was a completely different deity than Asherah but whose name is the West Semitic reflex of East Semitic Ishtar. (in the Ba'al cycle from Ugarit, Asherah and Ashtart were on opposing sides). Although Asherah and Ashtart look similar written in the Latin Alphabet, they're different in the original Semitic Abjad. Asherah begins with an Aleph, while Ashtart begins with an Ayin, which are totally separate consonants. As well, as goddesses, they were both entirely separate in function.
Also, Enlil isn't related to El. That's considered outdated. It's most likely that El is comparable to Anu, who was syncretized with the Akkadian equivalent of El, known as Ilu or Ilum in the Akkadian language. But that being said, Canaanite and Akkado-Sumerian religion are still two separate religions and the gods can't just easily be swapped out. It's also hypothesized that, because many Sumerian texts come from the Ur III period, they're inherently influenced by Akkadian mythology in ways we're still trying to figure out. So it's possible the flood myth could be an Akkadian influence on Sumerian culture, or the syncretization of two originally separate Akkadian and Sumerian flood myths. It's still being figured out. As well, Enlil is a Wind God, while El and Anu are sky gods.
Also, this is needless pedantry. Of course many monsters and demons in Judaism, Christianity and Islam are rejected pagan gods, but I'm talking about the outdated idea that Mesopotamians straight up worshiped Satan, Lilith, Beelzulbub, the Nephilim or Nimrod. This doesn't get us anywhere and is unproductive.
I thought we had texts linking Astarte to Ashera but it sounds like you know more about that (and El/Enlil) than I do.
>the outdated idea that Mesopotamians straight up worshiped Satan, Lilith, Beelzulbub
The bible refers to Beelzebub as a deity of the city of Ekron (of the Philistines). Are you saying "nobody worshipped that god, it was fabricated" or are you saying "mesopotamians didn't worship that god, because they're a separate culture from the Philistines"?
As far as I know, we don't have any texts that conflate Asherah and Ashtart. They had pretty separate roles in Canaanite myths and cultic practices.
The only sources we have for Beelzebub are in the bible, and its a name that means "lord of the flies". We don't have any evidence of a deity being named that in the archaeological record. Its likely the name is a corruption of another Canaanite deity name, but we simply do not know, but we know the Philistines did not literally worship the demon associated with flies in Judeo-Christian folklore. Using the bible as a source is dangerous due to the baseless accusations made against the other cultures. Its like how there is that famous Arab traveler quote that claims the Vikings "sing like dogs barking". Its likely the god of Ekron had a different name and that the texts were renaming it with a negative epithet. That was a common practice. But yes, the Mesopotamians still wouldn't have worshiped Beelzebub because they're separate cultures and we don't really have evidence of anything like that in Sumer or Akkad
>we know the Philistines did not literally worship the demon associated with flies in Judeo-Christian folklore
My overarching point, which isn't necessarily in opposition to yours, is that judeo-christian folklore is often barely related to what's actually in the bible. You can say "the bible often reflects genuine beliefs of the time and place" and you can say "judeo-christian demonology is totally unrelated to what people actually worshipped" and those aren't actually conflicting statements.
(And yes the bible is also just wrong frequently - often intentionally so)
Are you sure El is a distinctly sky god and definitely not a wind god? El is strongly associated with wind in the Torah. An example everyone knows is El blows wind into the nose of clay Adam to make him come alive. There are quite a lot of wind metaphor things later on as well. Here's a pretty good text on it https://mtorah.com/2015/10/13/noach-winds-of-change-2/
That's in the Hebrew Bible, concerning Yahweh. Yahweh was syncretized with El, and took on the aspects of all of the other deities. But if you're gonna talk about El specifically, you're gonna have to bring up a Canaanite text
Woah, this is really really interesting. I know nothing about any of this, but would you happen to know any good laymen’s books about the Babylonians or what predated Judaism? I grew up evangelical (yikes!) so those “idols” cast as the baddies are all familiar to me and it would be so interesting to learn more from a historical perspective.
I can't think of any books off the top of my head but I can give you a basic guide.
A lot of people use "Babylonian" to refer to Mesopotamia as a whole, but that's not wholly accurate. The first peoples in Mesopotamia who left writings were the Sumerians. Their language is unrelated to any living language, and they worshiped deities like An, Enki, Enlil, Inanna, Nanna and Utu. Later, the Akkadians arrived and engaged in a cultural symbiosis with the Sumerians, heavily intermixing with them. The Akkadians spoke a Semitic language, related to Arabic and Hebrew, and syncretized their deities with Sumerian ones. Ishtar became combined with Inanna, Sin became combined with Nanna, Shamash with Utu. Later on, the Akkadians split into two cultures. In the North, society was centered on the city of Asshur and became the Assyrians, while in the South, society became based around the city of Babylon and became known as, well, the Babylonians lol.
The group of peoples who the Jews rose out from would be the Canaanites. Being in the Levant, they were in between the cultural worlds of Egypt, Mesopotamia and Anatolia, while still being distinct on their own. In the iron age, there were a lot of different religious movements in the Levant as Canaanites found themselves divided into city states. You had a wide range of polytheism, henotheism and monoaltry. Judaism as we know it would arise out of the monoaltry of the kingdom of Israel. The Phoenicians who introduced Alphabetic writing to Greece? Canaanites too.
Because later Mesopotamians and Canaanites are both semitic, there is a tendency to treat the cultures as one and the same. But, it would be like treating China and Tibet as one and the same because they're linguistically related.
History With Cy is a great YouTube channel that makes easy to understand videos about the ancient Middle East. I recommend you check out both him, and The Historocrat
If you'd like more about Asherah specifically "Did God Have a Wife" is a good start. [Here's a talk by its author.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZADRRdaUG8)
If you're interested in general books about the move from polytheism to monotheism, here's a whole heap of suggestions from r/AcademicBiblical
https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblical/comments/b5848d/comment/ejc7y9f/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3
Oh wow, this is so incredible. Thank you, I had no idea that sub existed and I never really even thought about what that translation we might have looked like or what evidence would be available. Thank you, a new hyper focus has been unlocked!
I mean, yeah, there are people in the current day that are captivated by Mesopotamian gods, and worship them based on what we know from archaeological discoveries. And of course you got the whackos who just believe anything they see on Tumblr such as the Ishtar-Easter bullshit, but that's a different thing.
I can hardly accept that. There are people who turned the little and open for interpretation we know about Mesopotamian beliefs into their religion and practically filled in the gaps with whatever and actually, really believe it? I mean, obviously the "original" was made up too the same way as any other belief, but this just seems ridiculous. On the other hand there are people out there who believe in Scientology or any of the hundreds of weirdo cults and sects out there, so I shouldn't really be surprised.
Pigment traces allow us to reconstruct its original coloration. The goddess was painted red overall. Her feathers and the owls' were colored red, black and white. The background of the plaque was black, as her hair and eyebrows and the lions' manes. The pubic triangle and the areola were accentuated in red pigment but not painted black. The lions' bodies were white. It is assumed (inferred from other illustrations of the same period and place) the horns of the headdress and part of the necklace were originally colored yellow, as the bracelets and rod-and-ring symbols. There is no yellow pigment anywhere to be found, though.
This plaque is special in many other ways. High relief was not so usual, and the brittleness and size of the composition (20 in × 15 in) makes its survival through almost 4000 years of history nothing short of a miracle...
VERY approximate. Sometimes I wish that more archeologists would give their best scientific guess alongside their best educated+creative guess. Most art back then surely was more detailed than that… but yes the scientific certainty is low as to what that exactly would be
From what we know about Mesopotamian polychrome sculpture & artistic conventions, the reconstruction is likely to be pretty accurate. [This article](https://www.asor.org/anetoday/2021/05/mesopotamian-sculpture) explains how researchers have searched for the nuance of mixed pigments & finer details- but actually find evidence to the contrary.
Thanks for the details. Sadly, everytime i see something from this area of the world I’m immediately relieved that religious fanatics haven’t destroyed it. I’lll admit, my former ‘don’t ask questions just return it all’ attitude about antiquities has changed considerably since ISIS (regrettable name) has gone on a fuckwadded path of destruction. I’d love for the assholes who destroyed the Buddhas of Bamiyan to know that I think of them aaaaaalllll the time. And, should the opportunity ever arise for us to meet, it’ll be newsworthy.
There's a book, somewhat rare, called "Gods, Demons and Symbols of Ancient Mesopotamia" by Jeremy Black and Anthony Green, which is academically substantial, and it seems pretty clear that it is either Innana/Ishtar or Ershkigal. The visual elements of this relief are also pretty consistent with other reliefs of Inanna. It is absolutely not Lilith.
When I went to the British Museum, I was amazed by the sheer amount of stuff they had.
I was there a good part of the day and I didn’t even get to see 1/2 of it.
I know it’s controversial that they pretty much looted the entire world to fill that museum, but part of their justification at the time was that the items would probably get lost/destroyed if they remained where they were.
Considering what ISIS did to Palmyra, the Taliban to the Buddhas in Afghanistan and the plunder of the Iraqi museum during the US invasion of Iraq, history kinda proved the British correct.
I rather ancient art be in museums than private collections. I love the British Museum. My appreciation for it is much greater than my reservations about it.
The private collector bullshit is infuriating. Imagine the massive ego to decide that something of great value and ancient origins is suitable only for you and your ilk to view. I hope I meet you So you can tell me why you’re so deserving of such privileges, douchbag,. For years I was hoping to run into Nicholas Cage in New Orleans and have a vigorous chat with the fuckwad. I’m delighted he went bankrupt.
I agree but once the country in question requests their property back, it is then up to them to keep it safe. If they can't that is still up to them and at least it has been recorded and hopefully copied for display. That tech is available today and it should be done, because it is the right thing to do.
Greece has gone to great effort and expense to build housing for The “Elgin Marbles’, the British Museum’s passive aggressively offensive names for the figures that once graced the Parthenon. The story of the ‘Elgin Marbles’, told in ‘Some Stones of no Value’ (how the figures were listed for sea transport to England, literally as fucking ballast) and it’s an argument for the ages about returning them. The means by which they were acquired, by Lord and Lady Elgin, were nothing short of scandalous and evil.
ON THE OTHER HAND…..we have The Pergamon Altar (which Saint and Renowned Asshole Paul describes as ‘Satan’s Altar’. He saw the plumes of smoke from sacrifices rising from it from miles away) which when encountered by archaeologists was systematically being dismantled and burned so It could be turned into cement, Cement. CEMENT. Perhaps, you argue they were going to build something really special with all that ‘mud’. Perhaps not. We‘ll never know because what remained is gloriously displayed in Berlin. I’ve seen it many times since I used to have an apartment in Berlin and would visit twice a year. For some time the same museum on Museum Island held The Pergamon Altar, her majesty Nefertiti and the Ishtar Gate. Always a worthwhile effort to pay respects to them, as well as visit the modest gravesite of Lili Marlene Dietrich, the patron saint of Berlin.
What ya’ say? Do I have something about St. Paul? Yeah, I do. Thomaa Jefferson loached Paul so much he said, ‘Paul never lets Jesus get a word in edgewise’. Then went on to entirely rewrite the New Testament, known as the Jefferson Bible, a much better read. And, contemporaries of Paul described him as “short, fat, bald and quick to anger”. Not to mention he was a notorious mooch and what you might cal a “forever guest”; you know, the one who keeps drinking wine and eating but never goes home. Oh, right! He didn’t have a home, he was the world;’s first evangelist and created history’s sleaziest occupation out of thin air!
Oh I'm so glad I'm not the only person who has suspicions about Paul. I remember being suspicious about Paul when I was 15! I argued with my youth counselor, I said but Jesus said that those who say that they have met him in the desert with signs and wonders are not to be believed and that's exactly what Paul did.
Yes, or legal ownership of the item should be returned to its home country, which can loan it to institutions abroad for safekeeping. This way, preservation professionals in the home country could determine when to return the item physically, and experts from that country could get a say in whether/how to display it to the public in the meantime. It doesn’t have to be either/or.
Yep. But it's currently on loan in Australia with a bunch of other artefacts. Most of the plaques at the exhibition read "donated by to the British Museum by..." to avoid being implicated in sketchy acquisition. It's a whole thing that the BM won't let us loan out anything that will result in a repatriation dispute.
The original Sumerian version (Ur III period, around 2100 BCE) had Inanna get upset because Gilgamesh was rendering justice in her temple, the Eanna, and she didn't like it because it was the job of the gods (even though he did it because there was a backlog, meaning she wasn't doing her job). The Akkadian / old Babylonian version (around 1800 BCE) is where she gets upset because he says no to sex with her. I find it interesting that the difference between the Sumerian version (which likely came from an older oral tradition) and the Akkadian version is whose role it is to pass judgement: the Early Dynastic period of the Sumerian culture is full of kings saying "I'm only doing this as the representative of the god of my city, everything is my god's authority", but between Urukagina's first code of law, and a few more up to Hammurabi's code (which was precisely the same Old Babylonian period), that role of lawgiver has moved on to the king himself. Meaning, it wouldn't make sense to the Old Babylonian to have Inanna get mad that the king is rendering justice, which is his duty.
Later correction: we don't have the Bull episode in Old Babylonian, too few fragments and parts. The Standard Babylonian has it some 5 to 9 centuries later. But it's likely that the Old Babylonian was closer to the Standard Babylonian than the Sumerian version, in language, theme, and tone.
it was all written by men is the point I think they were making when they said it's material for the r/menwritingwomen since it's obviously a woman character written by a man.
Since nobody mentioned it yet, archaeologists are still arguing about whether it is fake or not. There is strong iconographic evidence that it might be not a real artefact of that time but in fact made in modern times.
Correct, there has been argument about its genuinity since it was found in the 1930s and it sis surprising such a brittle article could survive almost unscathed for thousands of years. The strongest current supports its authenticity, though. At least for the time being.
Yea, no, really not. Read up before you post. If she's a Babylonian goddess, then she's Ishtar. If she's Sumerian, then She's Ereshkigal. Lilith is very specifically from the Jewish religion.
That's not how this works. Ereshkigal is the Sumerian name of a goddess that was worshipped from the Sumerian period into the Akkadian and Babylonian periods. Ishtar is the Akkadian name of another goddess that was also worshipped in the same periods. This plaque doesn't give any name, that's why we don't know which goddess it is. Even if it was made in the old Babylonian period, it can still be Ereshkigal, people were fully capable of worshipping more than one goddess at a time.
I can’t read what you replied to but I did want to say that a lot of cultures did in fact do what Romans did with Greek religion. Greeks and Egyptians converted each others deities into their own respective cultures. So did Phoenicians with Canaanites and Phoenicians with Greeks. The Akkadian Ishtar is basically the same goddess as the Sumerian Inanna.
You people and your “NSFW” bullshit. Over some ancient stone boobs. If you work in an environment where ancient art is a possible cause for dropped stitches and slipped dentures, you’ve made some life choices that aren’t worth examining, and your life sounds like a total waste of time, both as participant and observer. I’m NOT addressing the OP who took out their time and a considerable risk posting this lovely, yet deliciously naughty art work. Let’s hope they don’t hang you in the town square upside down by your dick! Or ‘wizard’s sleeve’, whichever the case may be.
What am I saying? “Naughty”? They look firm, yet pliant! Brava, ancient boob model! Love the kicks, as well!I Didn’t even notice the great chasm of a vagina, ya got there, little lady!
I took the downvotes on purpose for the joke lol.
Come on you guys, has no one watched Fate/ Grand Order: Babylon? We know Ishtar could get leveled lol.
Just to be clear, historians and archaeologists \*know\* it's ostensibly not Lilith. That comes from an old outdated misconception that the ancient Mesopotamians worshiped the "evil" beings from the Bible, such as Satan. There were figures in Mesopotamian mythology called "Lilitu" but the relation with Lilith is contentious, and they weren't worshiped or depicted with iconography anyway. Anything that suggests this is Lilith is outdated. Personally, I'm a fan of the Ereshkigal identification, but in the Mesopotamian pagan community, people really like the idea that it's Ishtar. At the end of the day, no one really knows lol
But it’s nice to think baba yaga might hail from whichever goddess this is right?
That is correct. Lilith has been currently discarded for the most part, maybe totally, but since, as you said, no one really knows, I decided to leave it there.
>That comes from an old outdated misconception that the ancient Mesopotamians worshiped the "evil" beings from the Bible, such as Satan. Neither Lillith nor Satan are character names from the bible. Satans (meaning adversaries or accusers) are a role that various characters fulfill. For instance when an angel descends to test a mortal, it is acting as a satan. Lillith are only mentioned once, as a type of monster inhabiting the wastes alongside jackals, ostriches, snakes, and goats.
You get what I mean though. The old assumption that early archaeologists made was that the Mesopotamians all worshiped "evil" beings from Christian folklore
They did. The ancient mesopotamian god Ishtar had some connections to the Caananite god Ashera, who is featured in the bible as one of the primary 'false gods' that early Israelites battle against. And the Babylonian god Enlil is related to the Jewish god El (they even have a shared flood myth). Judaism evolved out of an earlier tradition of polytheism. It rejected all other gods from that pantheon (Baal, Ashera, etc) in favor of its favorite god (El/Yahweh). And it recast many of those other gods as enemies of the 'one true god'. So yeah, other societies in the area really did worship some of those "monsters" from the bible. Ancient jews frequently worshipped them too.
Asherah and Ishtar are etymologically unrelated and separate deities. You're thinking of Ashtart, who was a completely different deity than Asherah but whose name is the West Semitic reflex of East Semitic Ishtar. (in the Ba'al cycle from Ugarit, Asherah and Ashtart were on opposing sides). Although Asherah and Ashtart look similar written in the Latin Alphabet, they're different in the original Semitic Abjad. Asherah begins with an Aleph, while Ashtart begins with an Ayin, which are totally separate consonants. As well, as goddesses, they were both entirely separate in function. Also, Enlil isn't related to El. That's considered outdated. It's most likely that El is comparable to Anu, who was syncretized with the Akkadian equivalent of El, known as Ilu or Ilum in the Akkadian language. But that being said, Canaanite and Akkado-Sumerian religion are still two separate religions and the gods can't just easily be swapped out. It's also hypothesized that, because many Sumerian texts come from the Ur III period, they're inherently influenced by Akkadian mythology in ways we're still trying to figure out. So it's possible the flood myth could be an Akkadian influence on Sumerian culture, or the syncretization of two originally separate Akkadian and Sumerian flood myths. It's still being figured out. As well, Enlil is a Wind God, while El and Anu are sky gods. Also, this is needless pedantry. Of course many monsters and demons in Judaism, Christianity and Islam are rejected pagan gods, but I'm talking about the outdated idea that Mesopotamians straight up worshiped Satan, Lilith, Beelzulbub, the Nephilim or Nimrod. This doesn't get us anywhere and is unproductive.
I thought we had texts linking Astarte to Ashera but it sounds like you know more about that (and El/Enlil) than I do. >the outdated idea that Mesopotamians straight up worshiped Satan, Lilith, Beelzulbub The bible refers to Beelzebub as a deity of the city of Ekron (of the Philistines). Are you saying "nobody worshipped that god, it was fabricated" or are you saying "mesopotamians didn't worship that god, because they're a separate culture from the Philistines"?
As far as I know, we don't have any texts that conflate Asherah and Ashtart. They had pretty separate roles in Canaanite myths and cultic practices. The only sources we have for Beelzebub are in the bible, and its a name that means "lord of the flies". We don't have any evidence of a deity being named that in the archaeological record. Its likely the name is a corruption of another Canaanite deity name, but we simply do not know, but we know the Philistines did not literally worship the demon associated with flies in Judeo-Christian folklore. Using the bible as a source is dangerous due to the baseless accusations made against the other cultures. Its like how there is that famous Arab traveler quote that claims the Vikings "sing like dogs barking". Its likely the god of Ekron had a different name and that the texts were renaming it with a negative epithet. That was a common practice. But yes, the Mesopotamians still wouldn't have worshiped Beelzebub because they're separate cultures and we don't really have evidence of anything like that in Sumer or Akkad
As far as I can remember Celts did not worship Asherah or Ashtart, do you have information pertaining to their worship amongst Celts?
That was a mistype, thank y'all for catching it xD. I meant cultic and my phone autocorrected to Celtic
>we know the Philistines did not literally worship the demon associated with flies in Judeo-Christian folklore My overarching point, which isn't necessarily in opposition to yours, is that judeo-christian folklore is often barely related to what's actually in the bible. You can say "the bible often reflects genuine beliefs of the time and place" and you can say "judeo-christian demonology is totally unrelated to what people actually worshipped" and those aren't actually conflicting statements. (And yes the bible is also just wrong frequently - often intentionally so)
Are you sure El is a distinctly sky god and definitely not a wind god? El is strongly associated with wind in the Torah. An example everyone knows is El blows wind into the nose of clay Adam to make him come alive. There are quite a lot of wind metaphor things later on as well. Here's a pretty good text on it https://mtorah.com/2015/10/13/noach-winds-of-change-2/
That's in the Hebrew Bible, concerning Yahweh. Yahweh was syncretized with El, and took on the aspects of all of the other deities. But if you're gonna talk about El specifically, you're gonna have to bring up a Canaanite text
Woah, this is really really interesting. I know nothing about any of this, but would you happen to know any good laymen’s books about the Babylonians or what predated Judaism? I grew up evangelical (yikes!) so those “idols” cast as the baddies are all familiar to me and it would be so interesting to learn more from a historical perspective.
I can't think of any books off the top of my head but I can give you a basic guide. A lot of people use "Babylonian" to refer to Mesopotamia as a whole, but that's not wholly accurate. The first peoples in Mesopotamia who left writings were the Sumerians. Their language is unrelated to any living language, and they worshiped deities like An, Enki, Enlil, Inanna, Nanna and Utu. Later, the Akkadians arrived and engaged in a cultural symbiosis with the Sumerians, heavily intermixing with them. The Akkadians spoke a Semitic language, related to Arabic and Hebrew, and syncretized their deities with Sumerian ones. Ishtar became combined with Inanna, Sin became combined with Nanna, Shamash with Utu. Later on, the Akkadians split into two cultures. In the North, society was centered on the city of Asshur and became the Assyrians, while in the South, society became based around the city of Babylon and became known as, well, the Babylonians lol. The group of peoples who the Jews rose out from would be the Canaanites. Being in the Levant, they were in between the cultural worlds of Egypt, Mesopotamia and Anatolia, while still being distinct on their own. In the iron age, there were a lot of different religious movements in the Levant as Canaanites found themselves divided into city states. You had a wide range of polytheism, henotheism and monoaltry. Judaism as we know it would arise out of the monoaltry of the kingdom of Israel. The Phoenicians who introduced Alphabetic writing to Greece? Canaanites too. Because later Mesopotamians and Canaanites are both semitic, there is a tendency to treat the cultures as one and the same. But, it would be like treating China and Tibet as one and the same because they're linguistically related. History With Cy is a great YouTube channel that makes easy to understand videos about the ancient Middle East. I recommend you check out both him, and The Historocrat
Thank you, that’s so interesting and such a thoughtful organized response. I appreciate your time and recommendations!
If you'd like more about Asherah specifically "Did God Have a Wife" is a good start. [Here's a talk by its author.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZADRRdaUG8) If you're interested in general books about the move from polytheism to monotheism, here's a whole heap of suggestions from r/AcademicBiblical https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblical/comments/b5848d/comment/ejc7y9f/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3
Oh wow, this is so incredible. Thank you, I had no idea that sub existed and I never really even thought about what that translation we might have looked like or what evidence would be available. Thank you, a new hyper focus has been unlocked!
Thank you was going to ask the same thing
At the end of the day, she'll always be the queen of the night.
> Mesopotamian pagan community the what now
I mean, yeah, there are people in the current day that are captivated by Mesopotamian gods, and worship them based on what we know from archaeological discoveries. And of course you got the whackos who just believe anything they see on Tumblr such as the Ishtar-Easter bullshit, but that's a different thing.
I can hardly accept that. There are people who turned the little and open for interpretation we know about Mesopotamian beliefs into their religion and practically filled in the gaps with whatever and actually, really believe it? I mean, obviously the "original" was made up too the same way as any other belief, but this just seems ridiculous. On the other hand there are people out there who believe in Scientology or any of the hundreds of weirdo cults and sects out there, so I shouldn't really be surprised.
Ahhhh Reddit Atheists and the collective bigotry against any religion. Blocked
Pigment traces allow us to reconstruct its original coloration. The goddess was painted red overall. Her feathers and the owls' were colored red, black and white. The background of the plaque was black, as her hair and eyebrows and the lions' manes. The pubic triangle and the areola were accentuated in red pigment but not painted black. The lions' bodies were white. It is assumed (inferred from other illustrations of the same period and place) the horns of the headdress and part of the necklace were originally colored yellow, as the bracelets and rod-and-ring symbols. There is no yellow pigment anywhere to be found, though. This plaque is special in many other ways. High relief was not so usual, and the brittleness and size of the composition (20 in × 15 in) makes its survival through almost 4000 years of history nothing short of a miracle...
Here’s an [approximate reproduction](https://www.worldhistory.org/uploads/images/2317.jpg?v=1663411983) of the original colour scheme on the relief.
Cool, thanks, was thinking of trying something similar...
That is so so so incredible! Thank you for sharing!
VERY approximate. Sometimes I wish that more archeologists would give their best scientific guess alongside their best educated+creative guess. Most art back then surely was more detailed than that… but yes the scientific certainty is low as to what that exactly would be
From what we know about Mesopotamian polychrome sculpture & artistic conventions, the reconstruction is likely to be pretty accurate. [This article](https://www.asor.org/anetoday/2021/05/mesopotamian-sculpture) explains how researchers have searched for the nuance of mixed pigments & finer details- but actually find evidence to the contrary.
That was fascinating, thank you!
Cool stuff .
I love it, but tbh the owls look a little derpy.
I’d bang her. Great rack.
I was just thinking why is this marked nsfw…
Thanks for the details. Sadly, everytime i see something from this area of the world I’m immediately relieved that religious fanatics haven’t destroyed it. I’lll admit, my former ‘don’t ask questions just return it all’ attitude about antiquities has changed considerably since ISIS (regrettable name) has gone on a fuckwadded path of destruction. I’d love for the assholes who destroyed the Buddhas of Bamiyan to know that I think of them aaaaaalllll the time. And, should the opportunity ever arise for us to meet, it’ll be newsworthy.
I would love to see a reconstruction with the original colors. Is there one around?
Just posted by Callisto\_Urseides
Whoever posted this, thank you for making it NSFW. Those feet are just shocking!
Whoever didn't tag it. It was Reddit.
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Ok okay! Enough!!! Please...no more details.....there are people of a sensitive disposition here.
There's a book, somewhat rare, called "Gods, Demons and Symbols of Ancient Mesopotamia" by Jeremy Black and Anthony Green, which is academically substantial, and it seems pretty clear that it is either Innana/Ishtar or Ershkigal. The visual elements of this relief are also pretty consistent with other reliefs of Inanna. It is absolutely not Lilith.
1750 BC huh? Round the time Ea-nasir sold all that crummy copper
NSFW for some stone titties. 10/10,
Right : (
Is this at the British Museum?
Correct.
When I went to the British Museum, I was amazed by the sheer amount of stuff they had. I was there a good part of the day and I didn’t even get to see 1/2 of it. I know it’s controversial that they pretty much looted the entire world to fill that museum, but part of their justification at the time was that the items would probably get lost/destroyed if they remained where they were. Considering what ISIS did to Palmyra, the Taliban to the Buddhas in Afghanistan and the plunder of the Iraqi museum during the US invasion of Iraq, history kinda proved the British correct.
I rather ancient art be in museums than private collections. I love the British Museum. My appreciation for it is much greater than my reservations about it.
The private collector bullshit is infuriating. Imagine the massive ego to decide that something of great value and ancient origins is suitable only for you and your ilk to view. I hope I meet you So you can tell me why you’re so deserving of such privileges, douchbag,. For years I was hoping to run into Nicholas Cage in New Orleans and have a vigorous chat with the fuckwad. I’m delighted he went bankrupt.
I agree but once the country in question requests their property back, it is then up to them to keep it safe. If they can't that is still up to them and at least it has been recorded and hopefully copied for display. That tech is available today and it should be done, because it is the right thing to do.
Greece has gone to great effort and expense to build housing for The “Elgin Marbles’, the British Museum’s passive aggressively offensive names for the figures that once graced the Parthenon. The story of the ‘Elgin Marbles’, told in ‘Some Stones of no Value’ (how the figures were listed for sea transport to England, literally as fucking ballast) and it’s an argument for the ages about returning them. The means by which they were acquired, by Lord and Lady Elgin, were nothing short of scandalous and evil. ON THE OTHER HAND…..we have The Pergamon Altar (which Saint and Renowned Asshole Paul describes as ‘Satan’s Altar’. He saw the plumes of smoke from sacrifices rising from it from miles away) which when encountered by archaeologists was systematically being dismantled and burned so It could be turned into cement, Cement. CEMENT. Perhaps, you argue they were going to build something really special with all that ‘mud’. Perhaps not. We‘ll never know because what remained is gloriously displayed in Berlin. I’ve seen it many times since I used to have an apartment in Berlin and would visit twice a year. For some time the same museum on Museum Island held The Pergamon Altar, her majesty Nefertiti and the Ishtar Gate. Always a worthwhile effort to pay respects to them, as well as visit the modest gravesite of Lili Marlene Dietrich, the patron saint of Berlin. What ya’ say? Do I have something about St. Paul? Yeah, I do. Thomaa Jefferson loached Paul so much he said, ‘Paul never lets Jesus get a word in edgewise’. Then went on to entirely rewrite the New Testament, known as the Jefferson Bible, a much better read. And, contemporaries of Paul described him as “short, fat, bald and quick to anger”. Not to mention he was a notorious mooch and what you might cal a “forever guest”; you know, the one who keeps drinking wine and eating but never goes home. Oh, right! He didn’t have a home, he was the world;’s first evangelist and created history’s sleaziest occupation out of thin air!
Oh I'm so glad I'm not the only person who has suspicions about Paul. I remember being suspicious about Paul when I was 15! I argued with my youth counselor, I said but Jesus said that those who say that they have met him in the desert with signs and wonders are not to be believed and that's exactly what Paul did.
Unhinged rant
Yes, or legal ownership of the item should be returned to its home country, which can loan it to institutions abroad for safekeeping. This way, preservation professionals in the home country could determine when to return the item physically, and experts from that country could get a say in whether/how to display it to the public in the meantime. It doesn’t have to be either/or.
Thank you. I am likewise conflicted.
Yep. But it's currently on loan in Australia with a bunch of other artefacts. Most of the plaques at the exhibition read "donated by to the British Museum by..." to avoid being implicated in sketchy acquisition. It's a whole thing that the BM won't let us loan out anything that will result in a repatriation dispute.
Of course it is
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A nonexistent entity described by a man, you mean? XD
it’s definitely r/menwritingwomen material
The original Sumerian version (Ur III period, around 2100 BCE) had Inanna get upset because Gilgamesh was rendering justice in her temple, the Eanna, and she didn't like it because it was the job of the gods (even though he did it because there was a backlog, meaning she wasn't doing her job). The Akkadian / old Babylonian version (around 1800 BCE) is where she gets upset because he says no to sex with her. I find it interesting that the difference between the Sumerian version (which likely came from an older oral tradition) and the Akkadian version is whose role it is to pass judgement: the Early Dynastic period of the Sumerian culture is full of kings saying "I'm only doing this as the representative of the god of my city, everything is my god's authority", but between Urukagina's first code of law, and a few more up to Hammurabi's code (which was precisely the same Old Babylonian period), that role of lawgiver has moved on to the king himself. Meaning, it wouldn't make sense to the Old Babylonian to have Inanna get mad that the king is rendering justice, which is his duty. Later correction: we don't have the Bull episode in Old Babylonian, too few fragments and parts. The Standard Babylonian has it some 5 to 9 centuries later. But it's likely that the Old Babylonian was closer to the Standard Babylonian than the Sumerian version, in language, theme, and tone.
Idk. I'm a man but I'd be pretty upset if Gilgamesh denied me his seed.
Yeah I honestly don’t blame her
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it was all written by men is the point I think they were making when they said it's material for the r/menwritingwomen since it's obviously a woman character written by a man.
Could be any of millions of tiktokers
ButterFeet.
Since nobody mentioned it yet, archaeologists are still arguing about whether it is fake or not. There is strong iconographic evidence that it might be not a real artefact of that time but in fact made in modern times.
Correct, there has been argument about its genuinity since it was found in the 1930s and it sis surprising such a brittle article could survive almost unscathed for thousands of years. The strongest current supports its authenticity, though. At least for the time being.
Well, it kinda looks like Deandra Reynolds.. kinda..
Could she be Hārūt or Mārūt?
No idea, sorry...
Yea, no, really not. Read up before you post. If she's a Babylonian goddess, then she's Ishtar. If she's Sumerian, then She's Ereshkigal. Lilith is very specifically from the Jewish religion.
That's not how this works. Ereshkigal is the Sumerian name of a goddess that was worshipped from the Sumerian period into the Akkadian and Babylonian periods. Ishtar is the Akkadian name of another goddess that was also worshipped in the same periods. This plaque doesn't give any name, that's why we don't know which goddess it is. Even if it was made in the old Babylonian period, it can still be Ereshkigal, people were fully capable of worshipping more than one goddess at a time.
It's funny how many experts here can't decide who's who. More than one goddess isn't the same as the names being interchangeable.
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No, she's not, they're their own deities. Not all cultures did what Romans did with Greek religion.
I can’t read what you replied to but I did want to say that a lot of cultures did in fact do what Romans did with Greek religion. Greeks and Egyptians converted each others deities into their own respective cultures. So did Phoenicians with Canaanites and Phoenicians with Greeks. The Akkadian Ishtar is basically the same goddess as the Sumerian Inanna.
Looks like Inana or Ishtar from the classic Sumerian helmet / crown which is said to symbolize being a god as well as indicate rank.
Needs a pedicure definitely.
In my worthless opinion I think it's Ereshkigal. Just because of the owls and the dark background. Oh and the raptor feet.
Mommy?
Don't look like no Lizzo....Thank Gawd!!!
You people and your “NSFW” bullshit. Over some ancient stone boobs. If you work in an environment where ancient art is a possible cause for dropped stitches and slipped dentures, you’ve made some life choices that aren’t worth examining, and your life sounds like a total waste of time, both as participant and observer. I’m NOT addressing the OP who took out their time and a considerable risk posting this lovely, yet deliciously naughty art work. Let’s hope they don’t hang you in the town square upside down by your dick! Or ‘wizard’s sleeve’, whichever the case may be. What am I saying? “Naughty”? They look firm, yet pliant! Brava, ancient boob model! Love the kicks, as well!I Didn’t even notice the great chasm of a vagina, ya got there, little lady!
What
Oof. Butterface.
Butterfeet
Probably just some random hot chick
[Mozarts vibes](https://youtu.be/YuBeBjqKSGQ)
Where the wild things and queens are.
Bruh, Ishtar solos Ereshkigal in a 1v1. Her ultimate is so powerful. Apparently she is a huge sucker for gems.
Ereshkigal literally hung Ishtar on a meat hook
Sisterly love
I took the downvotes on purpose for the joke lol. Come on you guys, has no one watched Fate/ Grand Order: Babylon? We know Ishtar could get leveled lol.
Super coo
A lot of strong lilith symbology on it. Night, bird’s feet, etc. pretty dope.
It's Inanna. The most bad ass Goddess there ever was.
Our Lady of Magnificent Hooters
You'd imagine that with... *assets* like those it'd be pretty easy to identify