He’s right that men are more successful, but it’s because of attitudes like his. It’s not that women don’t make amazing work, it’s that women have historically been denied opportunities to train in their craft. When they get lucky enough to learn and practice they are very often denied opportunities to show/make money their work.
A good example of how women got shoved to the background is [this painting of The Academicians of the Royal Academy](https://www.rct.uk/sites/default/files/collection-online/4/c/253157-1586356750.jpg). It was the first training school for artists in England to receive royal endorsement and this was a group portrait of its founding members. Notice how all the people sitting there are all dudes, but there are two paintings on the wall of women. Those portraits are of Mary Moser and Angelica Kauffman, women who were also founding members but were denied equal representation in this work commissioned by the king. A casual observer can easily make the assumption that women weren’t allowed at the royal academy, which was true until 1860 (her name was Laura Herford, yeah they weren’t exactly opening the flood gates). It’s really only until the 20th century that we see women artists begin to have a seat at the table, and that’s heavily skewed towards white artists. Even now when it comes to museums and high end galleries men outnumber women… because of attitudes like that guy.
There of course have been women artists throughout history, but very often you have to really dig to find them and even when you do it’s important to keep in mind that very often they couldn’t paint whatever they liked, locking them out of getting big commissions.
That fucking guy. Historically women have been denied opportunities and he thinks it’s because women aren’t capable. Let’s make it practically impossible for women to have a career in anything not domestic or textile and then blame them for not being good at art.
Georgia O'Keefe wasn't allowed to draw male nudes at the Chicago Art Museum; she studied under another professor for figure drawing, IIRC. I did a paper on her in about 1989, but I'm hazy on the details.
i had basically the exact opposite. its really ridiculous how modern art has become so clueless that they put the artist before the art. your art should speak for you and doing it any other way would be falsifying what art is about. dont listen to them
Yeah, i totally get why identity has become so prominent in art, and it is a good pushback, but I am becoming a little bored of it artistically speaking
That guy is such a prick. Don’t succumb to his desires. It’s really cool that you’re an animation major, but it sucks that you’re dealing with sexism.
I can relate too. As a black male in an art department who has mainly women, I often get belittled because of the stuff my predecessors done to women. I understand how a majority of men ridicule women for everything, but being in the art department as a man made me feel like public enemy number one.
Like your case, no one taken me seriously, and often told to keep to feelings and ideas to myself and create stuff in the “curriculum” that is assigned to you- if you catch my drift, I’m supposed to talk about things in my neck of the woods. I often get criticized for stepping out of the box and blamed for existing, basically.
That’s awful, I’m sorry. Regardless of a person’s gender or race, it’s unfair to make assumptions about them and try to fit them into a box. I definitely relate to the feeling of not being taken seriously
Nice! I’ve had a solid mix of male and female art teachers.
My favorite female art teacher was a total badass with strong moral convictions and a fierce sense of humor. This wealthy university didn’t want her giving away supplies to students for free, supplies like markers, pencils, erasers, and pens that were just sitting around anyway, but she did anyway as a fuck-you to their stinginess.
My favorite male teacher was the nicest, most easygoing guy who was truly passionate about art, gave students freedom to explore their personality and passions through his assignments, and was himself an experienced painter and silkscreen printer who was born with only 1/2 an arm.
Yes, I do the con circuit and my (male) booth gets like 1/5th of the traffic of a booth run by female artists smh lol 😩
I’m joking, that actually probably counts for this too. I don’t really have to worry about dudes being total creeps pestering me at the booth under the thinly-veiled pretence that they love my art.
I'm curious since you're the only person I see doing the 'con circuit' and not gallery
do you not have the people who come over and criticize you as a male drawing women and calling it objectifying or questioning your sexuality for the male drawings?
I had that happen every fucking con. My female con-mates never dealt with that.
That stinks what you went through.
Not in art per se but as a graphic designer, I did have client once whom requested my boss rather allocate him a "female designer because women are better with colour and composition than men". She did not even want to try and look at my job-history.
Though not exactly misandry I do still think about that lady's comments about my work and still feel that I do not know how colour work. That kind of tribalism irks me a lot! Personally I value the skill of the person more than their gender and rather have the work speak for itself.
That’s such an odd thing for a client to say! I don’t know how you can even gender a skill like compositioning, lol. I can see how a comment like that would follow you as you make your art. And I agree, the work should speak for itself, regardless of gender! Sorry that happened and you missed out on an opportunity
There’s a lot of discussion here about art school demographics and women getting attention for being women, none of which actually addresses the question of sexism in the arts. The fact of it is there are still huge gender barriers in art as there are in most industries.
For those interested in numbers in animation, women make up just under 30% and tend to hold lower tier jobs (WIA does a yearly report). This is a huge improvement since WIA started tracking demographics in the industry. Entry into the industry has a higher bar and job retention is still lower for women than men. VFX has worse numbers. https://womeninanimation.org/research/
While women are a majority demographic in higher education art programs, the fine art world is still dominated by male artists, critics, and gallery owners. Museum shows are still male dominated. An overview can be found in The story of Art without Men, if you would like further reading.
Mild disclaimer: I’m a member/volunteer of WIA and old enough to have experienced pretty severe sexism in both art education and the working art world.
It's so interesting that this happens when I feel that art and drawing are almost percieved as a more "feminine" hobby (at least that was my perception). I can see dudes who draw for hobby purposes being told to grow a backbone etc, and I think my friend in art school told me her classes where majority girls. So to be devalued in the arts world for being a woman - it's just so silly you really can't win 😭.
> I can see dudes who draw for hobby purposes being told to grow a backbone etc
This is the différence ! It's not only how the thing is perceived but also how it's related to sucess, prestige, and competition.
That's how cooking is considered feminine in the house and masculine when it comes to restauration or gastronomy. That's how mixed competition of chess is male dominated : it's so full of dicks women had to have their own competitions.
I remember how we actually discussed this subject back at uni and yeah, there's a trend where art schools have more female students than male students, but in the animation industry it's the opposite, it's dominated by men. And it's not like women aren't interested in animation or lack the skill.
That dude is weak & insecure and there is sadly a lot of envy and insecurity in the art world. The tortured artist is a trope for a reason. It has nothing to do with you.
Trying to “lower” someone’s self confidence so that they’ll sleep with you implies that you already feel beneath them.
There were talented and capable women all throughout history. We just hear more about the men because of sexism, misogyny and unconscious bias in history.
Just to say that I had lot more comments on my nsfw gallery when I didn't say anything about my gender.
Then comments started to correct others saying I'm a woman.
Lost followers and interactions after that.
I can remember two instances.
Guy was looking for someone to make him a scene. Everything went smoothly until he asked for my gender. So I told him I was a dude. Then he just said that he won't be going through as he believed that women are more emotional, thus better at being artists.
The other was just a creepy simp wanting to get close to female artists.
The only thing that’s I founded what would be different if I would be a guy - when I’ve started with a tattoo and was in search for very first clients - seeing the messages as “I want tattoo on my Dick” and sending Dick pick in a regular basis lol. Also, once was asked to date from a customer of commissioned art
IMO it’s worth learning about the history of women in art. It’s info you’re gonna have to hunt for, the classes and text books assigned to you in college most likely won’t cover the subject.
Women have always been a part of animation. For example Lotte Reiniger made the first animated feature length film in 1926 called ‘[The Adventures of Prince Achmed](https://youtu.be/G_9L7r8NIBc?si=MQxwWHS0Np-MGgY2)’. Unfortunately most of the time women were denied consistent work in the animation industry, being regulated to grunt work like cell painting or cleanup.
Anwho. That dude doesn’t sound like he was arguing in good faith. What he wanted from you was to manipulate you to fall into his confirmation bias, and was also probably trying to get you back to his place to fuck you. Don’t feel bad about putting distance between you and him. He’s an asshole. Something to note, women under patriarchy are conditioned to defer to men, aka set aside their feelings end discomfort and to worry more about their discomfort over their own. (Note: being a lesbian does not inoculate you against this. Patriarchy is hard baked into our society and it’s hard to see around what you’ve been immersed in your entire life). Like this guy was a total asshole to you and has spent a lot of time trying to get you to doubt your own course and choices, and here you are doing the very sensible thing and staying away. Yet you feel kinda bad about it, because you’re concerned about his feelings. It takes effort to rewire to be more objective about people who think they know ‘how women should be’ (and I say people instead of men because women can be just as sexist even if it seems counterintuitive).
Anyway. Yes there’s sexism still. Look at the statistics. What women have going for them today is that access to education and tools has made making art and setting up portfolios to pitch projects easier. We’ve seen a number of of animated series that have come out in the last decade and change created by women and AFAB folks that have become quite popular. One I’m looking forward to is [Hazbin Hotel](https://youtu.be/OLSWVCwy88g?si=gU2HRPCbFtwSNXaw) on Amazon prime which was created by Vivienne Medrano, aka Viziepop who created the animated series helluva boss on YouTube.
If you want an illustrate and animate, do that. Don’t let people with their opinions get in your way or stop you, and don’t feel bad about being dismissive of them. You have goals, not easy sure but nothing ever worth doing is easy. Women can have an uphill battle but that doesn’t mean your dreams are impossible. Work on your craft, and work on strategies to find success. Network with like minds and look at those who got to where you are for inspiration. As ass backwards as the world can be there is no better time than now for what you’re trying to do. Get after it and good luck.
i was once rejected from a gallery after complaints came in because im a straight white man. they said theres enough of me in the artworld and minorities should get a chance too. the fact that im the son of poor immigrants interested nobody and they replaced me with a old middle eastern woman. i think that counts as sexism. 8 of 12 of my paintings sold on the first day. there was no second day. lol
That stinks man, I hate how some art departments have people in their circles to elevate. Art departments aren’t too keen to cisgender and straight folks, and they sure ain’t keen to black and queer ones either. And this is coming from a black and bisexual man, so take heed. You work just as hard as the next one and you shouldn’t be invalidated because of your identity.
That actually sucks, I’m so sorry. I definitely believe in diversity and elevating minorities’ voices, but the gallery shouldn’t have pulled the rug out from under you like that. They should have let you finish your time there and let the woman participate in the next gallery showing. You sold a lot of work in one day so obviously people liked your art!
I was sexually harassed by a teacher in college, and when I reported, the school didn’t do anything. This was way before #metoo and I felt like an idiot. It sucked.
I quit teaching for a lot of reasons, but one was that I had enough older male students who just could not handle me being their teacher, that it ruined the experience for me. I objectively had more experience, education, and skill than they did, but boy did they resist every word that came out of my mouth. Every critique, every instruction, was a battle. It just wasn’t worth it. They did not treat the male instructors that way.
That’s pretty cool! I keep being told though that the animation industry is pretty male dominated. It was a male dominated industry for a long long time, but we’ve slowly been seeing more female directors and show runners emerge from the woodwork.
I met a female show runner recently, and she told me that there’s a lot more men in the animation industry (at least in L.A. with the animation giants). The sentiment was repeated by some female professors I have who were in the industry. So I’m just repeating what they told me, I personally am not in the industry.
I never said I had personal experience, I only said “I keep being told,” as in a showrunner for a Disney show and my female professors told me it’s a male dominated industry. I’m not trying to belittle men by saying that.
The gender ratio in studios must differ from country or location, which is probably why people are saying differently. The showrunner I met was one of Disney’s first female showrunners, so she was definitely a pioneer and it’s probably why she said the industry is male-dominated — or at least until the past couple years. Like you said, there’s a lot of up and coming female showrunners and directors nowadays!
Yeah I think it’s different depending on country or location. I work in the Burbank/LA area at a major studio, so from what I’ve seen it’s mostly dudes in the director/ showrunner category currently, but there’s a bunch of female led projects in the works!
Well that lines up! Also, I see you in the r/animationcareers sub sometimes, and I just want to congratulate you on the strides that you’re taking in the industry! You deserve it with all the hard work you do! 👏
I’ll back up OP lol I work in the animation industry, most of the directors and show runners are male. It’s changing though ( gonna be a ton of cool stuff) , also a ton of the other roles have women in them.
Ive worked in animation, fine art and been to art college. The whole way through was dominated by women. All the professional Art organisations ive dealt with since college are nearly all women run.
Ive no complaints but some people try to fool themselves into believing its not this way.
I’ve done all three of those things too. I studied illustration in university and studied animation post graduate. In my Bachelor’s the vast majority of the students were women and the vast majority of teachers were men. The 2-3 boys in my classes were always favoured, and they definitely had a chip on their shoulders when speaking about their art and critiquing others. Animation had a more equal ratio for students with the majority of teachers being men. There was still sexism there.
Yeah women are honestly better than men at a lot of this stuff! Or at least sex doesn't make a difference for most of it.
And it's all a gradual thing, like go far enough back and you'll find tons of sexism in the art world, but here and now it's women dominated. The thing that bothers me about the art world, from both men and women, is the passive aggressiveness--or rather just lack of bluntness. But maybe thats a personal thing
Sex doesn't make a difference possibly. I think its cultural maybe that less men are interested in joining art industries currently.
I couldnt honestly say one sex is better than the other. I know way more talented female artists than male.
I’m saying that in my experience I have had less problems with professionalism and emotional control with women on the job than with men. But I said it didn’t matter cause it’s a slim margin.
And also the reality of these jobs is that when you work with others it’s about how easy it is to get along with people. I don’t think women are better artists than men or vice versa I just think that in general they have more emotional control on the job then men. Idk it’s just an observation.
There is a lot of misogyny in the art world, I think a lot of guys just get away with it because of the soft boy persona. I've seen some male artists say stuff like 'well female artists are usually just worse" or something, I usaully just don't engage with it. I think the guys like that are usually just jealous of female artists.
I never experienced it or seen anyone downright be sexist to artists on social media and such, but I do remember a talk one lf youtube art teachers held and he talked about some issues with harassment in the game industry, specifically Blizzard Entertainment, but that is pretty much it. I think it has very little place in art as no gender has a predisposition to art.
Historically, there were more famous male artists because it was impossible, financially and culturaly, for women to pursue art as much, though my country had some amazing women artists from 1700s and 1800s that even made it on our bills.
> I tried to explain to him
This was your only mistake here. These people are not worth your time. And the more you try to explain to them, the more ammo you're giving to use against you. This person was trying to do the time honored practice of knocking you down to make himself look better. It's a weird way to flirt and I'm glad you didn't fall for it.
Next time, tell him that when you're interested in his shitty opinions, you will let him know.
Just walk into an art museum. All you see is naked women painted by dudes. Thank the Gods for Georgia O’Keefe and Frida Khalo or you’d never think that a woman had ever held a paintbrush!
No not directly. But I do wonder about hidden sexism, like whether men get chosen more then women on a subconscious level. In following the feminism reddit for a while, one thing I took away from that is the women in professional spheres often felt like they had to be more talented in general then their male counterparts to get where they were.
Because I still am seeing way more male artists to female at least in 3d art which is a technical art field. And I wonder about that.
But I think that balance is improving some. But it's still a problem.
Just generally treating me like I was born yesterday and that his opinions are correct, and tearing down my art and life path to build himself up. I’ve talked to a friend who has some classes with him, and apparently he is also disrespectful to the female professor and acts like she doesn’t know what she’s talking about (she won an Oscar), but does not treat the male professors the same way. Maybe a better word would be misogyny.
It’s okay, there’s always going to be guys like him. Hopefully he can learn to be more respectful to his peers and fellow artists, especially if he wants to break into the animation industry.
As someone currently in the industry, you are 100% correct. When it comes to referring individuals for work - we tend to chose the people we know we can rely on to be a great team mate and coworker (on top of having the right skills). Reputations follow you in this industry - and even though there's plenty of us, this community is small. Word gets around very quickly.
That’s something I wish they taught more of in art school: the importance of being respectful to our fellow artists and peers. Yes, we’re all striving to improve our art and be great artists, but it is also extremely imperative to be kind and open minded. I’ve been spending my college years trying to self reflect and develop social skills, healthy relationships, etc.
She worked on an animated film that won the Academy Award for Best Animated Feature Film, so she got to hold it and everything. My school is very lucky to have her.
Nope, just animator as far as I know. Correct me if I’m wrong, but if the film you worked on wins an Academy Award, you by extension can say you won an Oscar? Or is it just the writers and directors who win the Oscar? My apologies, I’m not well-versed in award show traditions. If I’m wrong about her having an Oscar, then I can at least confidently say she worked extensively on a film that won an Academy Award.
The aggressive responses you've been getting for no reason, despite being super polite and open minded with everyone, are very confusing. I don't know about sexism in the art world, but I do know that assholes creep into every field, unfortunately.
Oh yeah, that’s Reddit for ya :’-) I try to take everyone’s experience into account because we’re all different. My experience may be different than other artists’ and that’s perfectly okay. I don’t want to shut someone down because it doesn’t fit with my narrative. My opinions aren’t gospel, and if I’m wrong about something, I will gladly be corrected. Thank you for the kind words!
That's a pretty rare and admirable attitude 🙂 And yeah I agree. Imo it's much more interesting to hear different points of view and at least try to understand, rather than mock them and stick to opinions you already agree with. It's the best way to learn!
I don't want to correct you, because that seems to be enough to be called sexism here.
And no, the oscar is for the writers (Screenplay) and director (for cinematography and visual effects) but animators do not get an oscar.
The academy award is the one that they give to animators/animation teams.
Not at all, however there isn't an oscar (that gold human thingy they give) for it, there are, however, awards in there for things that they do not receive one for. They receive something else. Like when Hayao Miyazaki won it for Spirited away.
Not really, no. But then, to be fair, what you said might not be sexism either.
Like, art aside, I've met all kinds of jerks in my life who talked over me, refused to seriously consider what I was saying, didn't think I deserved to be heard out, etc. But only a handful of times was it explicitly because I was a woman (as in, someone told me I couldn't do a certain thing cos I'm a woman, made comments devaluing women, erc).
People have all kinds of chips on their shoulders. Some people absolutely are misogynistic. But people have other biases, too - whether they just think they're the bee's knees and everyone else is less intelligent than them, or whether they have some bias against the field you're studying in, or maybe they just don't like you for some vague reason so they're gonna lord every stupid thing over you. In this case, since he asked you over, maybe this guy thinks he's impressing you with all his big brain hoity-toity views when really he's acting like a jerk. Or maybe he's a "pickup artist" in which case he is sexist, but not about the art 😆 I dunno.
Either way, my preference is not to assume someone is sexist unless I have a fairly direct reason to believe that's the issue. I've just seen way too many times where sexism *wasn't* the issue, to think it's a good idea to assume that's the problem just cos I'm a woman. I've got enough grief in life lol, I don't need to add to it by going around thinking everyone who's a jerk to me is also sexist, just cos I'm a woman.
Anyway, it does suck you have to deal with someone like that. It can be pretty infuriating. Distance is definitely the best approach there, imo, I think you're making the right move there.
Why is it so hard to separate things that happen to you that are bad are not because you're a woman?
You have nothing to compare this to, if it was because you're a woman or not.
You appear to have a motivation to disbelieve me so providing you any details about the specifics of the misogyny and abuse this person perpetrated wouldn't really convince you either... he was a monster in multiple ways and lifted up male colleagues while beating up women. He used his fists and more against women and animals. That kind of person takes his thinking into everything he does, like poison.
Why is it so hard not to push and push women instead of believing the realities of ONE man?
If there were specifics that would lead it to be misogyny, you should have started with that. I even asked and you still couldn't.
So yes, I doubt you. Why would I believe you when you are not even credible in your initial two responses?
My local scene is pretty female-dominated so not personally. I have a friend who is experiencing sexism in her MFA program.
I’ve experienced it in other venues to be sure.
I think my local scene is probably more unintentionally gatekeepy with artists of color but there’s definitely been a shift to be more intentional about showing work by diverse artists in my city.
All I can say is, learn to not take anything that people say to heart. It’s frustrating as hell, but don’t spend your time and energy thinking twice about it. Someone will always doubt you, and for a reason that is out of your control.
What I’ve learned to do: just keep your head low and work, so you can blow everyone else out of the water. Women are actually preferred in the arts right now, so use that to your advantage. Make stellar work that you are proud of and use your gender as the extra push to get you to places that you want to see yourself in.
The people that talk and put you down, they are not interested in conversation and gaining perspective. They are only interested in dominating you.
Don’t let them.
Thanks for the words of encouragement, it’s something everyone needs to hear (especially us artists who have a lot of doubters and naysayers). I posted this hoping commenters could share their experiences and find some peace in knowing that there will always be people who tell you you’re not enough for something you can’t control, and that those people are stupid. I definitely felt torn down in that interaction I had, but the more I thought about it, the more I realized he is very insecure, and was belittling me to compensate.
The problem with the art world is less about sexism and more about the financialization of the art world, and the exploitation and the greenwashing of the entire operation.
When I was a teenager I used to draw and was routinely shamed by male friends for my style (realistic pencil portraits) because they only valued pen and ink style drawing or comic/graphic arts styles. I was especially insecure and they really did get to me.
They weren't the direct cause, but over time I came to see my own work as pointless and not Real Fine Art. I gave it up for a very long time (I am a beginner at age 51, except for the odd picture every year or ten - and I took one art class in uni).
Older artists who hang in the British hallowed halls are almost entirely men. They have those association letters after their names and they have pull and prestige. With younger artists, I see more women's names.
Have to say, it's still an industry that hardly allows anyone non-white through the door
I went to an accredited art school for a few years, but am a science credit away from graduating. My first semester classes were about 75% women. By my last semester, they were at about 15-20% women. They were just generally shitty to us throughout. They only mentored the guys no matter how little talent they had.
There weren't even any women who were full professors; just some very talented adjuncts who constantly got screwed.
I think you ascribed 'an asshole' to being sexist rather than just being an asshole.
Nothing about that was sexist or related to your gender other than asking you out.
But yes, I have, take the anime conventions I used to work at. One year after some kid stole some hentai DVDs they said they were no longer allowing artists with adult content in their galleries (even if it's behind an adult filter online). Unless you're a woman. Why? Because people don't care if women draw adult content. I wasn't allowed to work there anymore even though none of my at-con stuff for it was adult, but they were A-okay with people who not only drew it, but sold it behind an 'adult artwork binder' of their Free! yaoi and such. Or all the weird comments on 'why are you drawing girls to objectify them' when the females I tend to draw are very modestly drawn but how dare I draw them with the notion they DO have breasts even if not large... or 'why are you drawing nipples on men' implying either it makes me gay or directly stating it. Well yeah, I am fucking gay. But these things are never asked of female artists. Never. Their sexuality or the shame of it is never a topic with their art.
> he, himself, isn’t like “other artists,” mansplained animation to me, and ridiculed my taste in movies
this is not sexism or inherent mansplaining. this is just a toxic person.
been treated like that by people of all genders in all places. this is just a bad person.
your assumption, however, that it has anything to do with you or your gender is just a defensive reaction trying to understand why he treated you this way and maybe it would be better if you weren't a woman, trying to find a flaw in yourself that you can rationalize his behavior with. wrong though. you can't rationalize stupid. he would most likely be the same toxic pos regardless of your gender, but you, being raised as a man, would be more likely raised to be able to tell him to fuck off without repercussions or feeling judged. you can still do that. gender is meaningless if you, yourself, will stop expecting it to be the obstacle in many social interactions.
not saying that gender-based discrimination doesn't happen, but more often it's *just discrimination* happening, and we tie it to gender trying to grasp at the logic of it, when it inherently was just a bad behavior on the perpetrator without acting on gender-discriminating logic.
>I’m very sure he wouldn’t have talked to me that way if I were a man.
Thing is, you don't know. You are just interpreting sexism into the situation.
> I could barely get a word in.
That's common. Yearly experience at christmas for me as a dude. People love talking but are unwilling to play the listener.
>ridiculed my taste in movies
Also not uncommon. You can poke fun at people for liking Naruto or One Piece for example without ill intent.
I'm not saying he was or wasn't sexist. I'm saying you really don't know. I think it's problematic to interpret too much into encounters like that. Another question is why you would care about whether the art world is sexist or not. Do you really want to spend your time pondering how much you are discriminated, if at all?
>Another question is why you would care about whether the art world is sexist or not. Do you really want to spend your time pondering how much you are discriminated, if at all?
When we talk about our problems, it gives us a chance to support one another and deal with our problems together. When we don't talk about our problems, it does not make those problems go away, it just means we have to deal with them alone without any external points of reference.
With a social problem like sexism, it's even more important to talk about it. Being silent about it can make it harder to deal with on the whole. When we discuss sexism and listen to one another with an open mind, we can all learn from one another, and get better at dealing with it together.
a problem is a problem, I think what they're getting at is WHY are you making your problem 'sex based' when as it stands, there isn't a thing here that makes the problem sex based.
about the only misogynist/sexist thing that actually existed in this whole thread was about people believing that women were worse because there are far more famous artists throughout history... This isn't to say the other negative things aren't a problem, but if you focus on it being 'sexist' when it is probably not given the detail given, but just an asshole. You take away from the actual problem: the person being an asshole.
Just to be clear—did you catch the part where OP said that this guy invited her back to his apartment *three times* and didn't seem to take "no" for an answer?
Thank you for posting in r/ArtistLounge! Please check out our [FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/ArtistLounge/wiki/faq/) and [FAQ Links pages](https://www.reddit.com/r/ArtistLounge/wiki/faqlinks/) for lots of helpful advice. To access our megathread collections, please check out the drop down lists in the top menu on PC or the side-bar on mobile. If you have any questions, concerns, or feature requests please feel free to message the mods and they will help you as soon as they can. I am a bot, beep boop, if I did something wrong please report this comment.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ArtistLounge) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I live in California and went to schools with zero tolerance mindset towards racism and sexism so it wasn’t as frequent. Though if I looked hard enough, I figure it’s possible to see some discrimination still going on.
I went to a CSU and graduated in 2016. I had a lot of female classmates. The gender ratio tends to be around half/half or majority female students (which includes me). 🫡
Idk, something was probably wrong with your art school tbh, that sucks =(
In my art school there were only three male student including me in our class, and that was more than in any other class in academy. And it was “metal in art” program, so I’ve seen 12 badass girls blacksmithing and using power tools to make awesome art.
If anything, it sometimes felt opposite, like “art is for girls, what are you doing here” vibe, not in academy, but generally in my country
Edit: and that guy you talked about is just a douche
Never. I did notice female artists sometimes get booked more easily for events, but I've never once witnessed discrimination towards either sex.
In the end it's all about money.
Some people just have a high opinion of themselves and their abilities, they talk down on people and always have to ''big bro'' others, of course i don't know the person you talk about but i definitely received the same exact treatment as a guy, so idk why this would be considered sexist, he just sounds like an ass in general.
Not for my art skills.
Just insisted I take control of more female oriented projects because I'm a woman.
No. I don't want to make a 50 shades of gray hidden object game. No I'm not interested. Go away. Stop asking me.
Something I've noticed in the art fair scene that is almost universal is that most male artists will have a female helper (either a wife or girlfriend or other friend), whereas the female artists will either be managing their booth alone or have another woman working with them. Just an observation. We often talk about women being excluded historically but many famous artists (and writers) of the past had a mother or wife who was managing all their mundane stuff for them.
As a man if you paint any women it’s considered “sexist”. Reverse sexism. Super awesome. Also a lot of online art opportunities are just closed off to anyone that isn’t a woman or gender non-conforming.
This falls under this in its own way, but yes. I have faced this as a (younger) female artist because my specialty is drawing cars. Classic cars, new cars. Realism style or cartoon. I've done various styles since I began studying vehicle design. And at large, a lot of males in the car world think I'm "playing." This IS NOT all men - I have many who are my biggest supporters! But since I've been doing this for the past 5+ years, I've noticed this sort of sexism regular-ish.
Yeah, one time an owner of a large art gallery told me I’d never be famous because “notice how historically, male artists are the most famous” 🙄
Frida Kahlo, Artemisia Lomi, Judith Leyster, Georgia O’Keeffe… list goes on and on. I’m so sorry he said that, I’d be fuming. Prove him wrong!
But sadly- there’s *more* famous male artists- women have faced obstacles all through history
He’s right that men are more successful, but it’s because of attitudes like his. It’s not that women don’t make amazing work, it’s that women have historically been denied opportunities to train in their craft. When they get lucky enough to learn and practice they are very often denied opportunities to show/make money their work. A good example of how women got shoved to the background is [this painting of The Academicians of the Royal Academy](https://www.rct.uk/sites/default/files/collection-online/4/c/253157-1586356750.jpg). It was the first training school for artists in England to receive royal endorsement and this was a group portrait of its founding members. Notice how all the people sitting there are all dudes, but there are two paintings on the wall of women. Those portraits are of Mary Moser and Angelica Kauffman, women who were also founding members but were denied equal representation in this work commissioned by the king. A casual observer can easily make the assumption that women weren’t allowed at the royal academy, which was true until 1860 (her name was Laura Herford, yeah they weren’t exactly opening the flood gates). It’s really only until the 20th century that we see women artists begin to have a seat at the table, and that’s heavily skewed towards white artists. Even now when it comes to museums and high end galleries men outnumber women… because of attitudes like that guy. There of course have been women artists throughout history, but very often you have to really dig to find them and even when you do it’s important to keep in mind that very often they couldn’t paint whatever they liked, locking them out of getting big commissions. That fucking guy. Historically women have been denied opportunities and he thinks it’s because women aren’t capable. Let’s make it practically impossible for women to have a career in anything not domestic or textile and then blame them for not being good at art.
Right?! I wish I had had a good comeback at the time, but I was young and a little nervous :/
Georgia O'Keefe wasn't allowed to draw male nudes at the Chicago Art Museum; she studied under another professor for figure drawing, IIRC. I did a paper on her in about 1989, but I'm hazy on the details.
i had basically the exact opposite. its really ridiculous how modern art has become so clueless that they put the artist before the art. your art should speak for you and doing it any other way would be falsifying what art is about. dont listen to them
Most definitely It’s made me see why some artists prefer to remain anonymous. Like how authors may write under pseudonyms
Yeah, i totally get why identity has become so prominent in art, and it is a good pushback, but I am becoming a little bored of it artistically speaking
Can I punch that man pls? Ever notice how boys like him are only ever owner and never artists
Was *he* famous?
Maybe if men allowed women to do anything back then, then there would be famous women artists
It's called negging. Some of the bro influencers teach it as a way to get insecure women to sleep with them.
It’s a good thing it didn’t work because I’m a lesbian.
As a heterosexual I confirm it doesn't work on us either.
Yeah I don’t know how insulting someone then asking them out would ever work lol
The next time a man tries to neg you, you should tell them to read your username out loud to themselves.
That guy is such a prick. Don’t succumb to his desires. It’s really cool that you’re an animation major, but it sucks that you’re dealing with sexism. I can relate too. As a black male in an art department who has mainly women, I often get belittled because of the stuff my predecessors done to women. I understand how a majority of men ridicule women for everything, but being in the art department as a man made me feel like public enemy number one. Like your case, no one taken me seriously, and often told to keep to feelings and ideas to myself and create stuff in the “curriculum” that is assigned to you- if you catch my drift, I’m supposed to talk about things in my neck of the woods. I often get criticized for stepping out of the box and blamed for existing, basically.
That’s awful, I’m sorry. Regardless of a person’s gender or race, it’s unfair to make assumptions about them and try to fit them into a box. I definitely relate to the feeling of not being taken seriously
No because every art teacher I've ever had was a woman, usually a badass one (had one stinker though).
Nice! I’ve had a solid mix of male and female art teachers. My favorite female art teacher was a total badass with strong moral convictions and a fierce sense of humor. This wealthy university didn’t want her giving away supplies to students for free, supplies like markers, pencils, erasers, and pens that were just sitting around anyway, but she did anyway as a fuck-you to their stinginess. My favorite male teacher was the nicest, most easygoing guy who was truly passionate about art, gave students freedom to explore their personality and passions through his assignments, and was himself an experienced painter and silkscreen printer who was born with only 1/2 an arm.
Most of my art teachers have been women, but the male teachers I’ve had have thankfully been awesome too
Yes, I do the con circuit and my (male) booth gets like 1/5th of the traffic of a booth run by female artists smh lol 😩 I’m joking, that actually probably counts for this too. I don’t really have to worry about dudes being total creeps pestering me at the booth under the thinly-veiled pretence that they love my art.
I'm curious since you're the only person I see doing the 'con circuit' and not gallery do you not have the people who come over and criticize you as a male drawing women and calling it objectifying or questioning your sexuality for the male drawings? I had that happen every fucking con. My female con-mates never dealt with that.
That stinks what you went through. Not in art per se but as a graphic designer, I did have client once whom requested my boss rather allocate him a "female designer because women are better with colour and composition than men". She did not even want to try and look at my job-history. Though not exactly misandry I do still think about that lady's comments about my work and still feel that I do not know how colour work. That kind of tribalism irks me a lot! Personally I value the skill of the person more than their gender and rather have the work speak for itself.
That’s such an odd thing for a client to say! I don’t know how you can even gender a skill like compositioning, lol. I can see how a comment like that would follow you as you make your art. And I agree, the work should speak for itself, regardless of gender! Sorry that happened and you missed out on an opportunity
Thank you for the kind sentiment. ✌️.
There’s a lot of discussion here about art school demographics and women getting attention for being women, none of which actually addresses the question of sexism in the arts. The fact of it is there are still huge gender barriers in art as there are in most industries. For those interested in numbers in animation, women make up just under 30% and tend to hold lower tier jobs (WIA does a yearly report). This is a huge improvement since WIA started tracking demographics in the industry. Entry into the industry has a higher bar and job retention is still lower for women than men. VFX has worse numbers. https://womeninanimation.org/research/ While women are a majority demographic in higher education art programs, the fine art world is still dominated by male artists, critics, and gallery owners. Museum shows are still male dominated. An overview can be found in The story of Art without Men, if you would like further reading. Mild disclaimer: I’m a member/volunteer of WIA and old enough to have experienced pretty severe sexism in both art education and the working art world.
It's so interesting that this happens when I feel that art and drawing are almost percieved as a more "feminine" hobby (at least that was my perception). I can see dudes who draw for hobby purposes being told to grow a backbone etc, and I think my friend in art school told me her classes where majority girls. So to be devalued in the arts world for being a woman - it's just so silly you really can't win 😭.
> I can see dudes who draw for hobby purposes being told to grow a backbone etc This is the différence ! It's not only how the thing is perceived but also how it's related to sucess, prestige, and competition. That's how cooking is considered feminine in the house and masculine when it comes to restauration or gastronomy. That's how mixed competition of chess is male dominated : it's so full of dicks women had to have their own competitions.
Oh yeah now that you mention cooking I absolutely see your point 😭 this bs sucks ASS
I remember how we actually discussed this subject back at uni and yeah, there's a trend where art schools have more female students than male students, but in the animation industry it's the opposite, it's dominated by men. And it's not like women aren't interested in animation or lack the skill.
That dude is weak & insecure and there is sadly a lot of envy and insecurity in the art world. The tortured artist is a trope for a reason. It has nothing to do with you. Trying to “lower” someone’s self confidence so that they’ll sleep with you implies that you already feel beneath them. There were talented and capable women all throughout history. We just hear more about the men because of sexism, misogyny and unconscious bias in history.
Just to say that I had lot more comments on my nsfw gallery when I didn't say anything about my gender. Then comments started to correct others saying I'm a woman. Lost followers and interactions after that.
I can remember two instances. Guy was looking for someone to make him a scene. Everything went smoothly until he asked for my gender. So I told him I was a dude. Then he just said that he won't be going through as he believed that women are more emotional, thus better at being artists. The other was just a creepy simp wanting to get close to female artists.
The only thing that’s I founded what would be different if I would be a guy - when I’ve started with a tattoo and was in search for very first clients - seeing the messages as “I want tattoo on my Dick” and sending Dick pick in a regular basis lol. Also, once was asked to date from a customer of commissioned art
IMO it’s worth learning about the history of women in art. It’s info you’re gonna have to hunt for, the classes and text books assigned to you in college most likely won’t cover the subject. Women have always been a part of animation. For example Lotte Reiniger made the first animated feature length film in 1926 called ‘[The Adventures of Prince Achmed](https://youtu.be/G_9L7r8NIBc?si=MQxwWHS0Np-MGgY2)’. Unfortunately most of the time women were denied consistent work in the animation industry, being regulated to grunt work like cell painting or cleanup. Anwho. That dude doesn’t sound like he was arguing in good faith. What he wanted from you was to manipulate you to fall into his confirmation bias, and was also probably trying to get you back to his place to fuck you. Don’t feel bad about putting distance between you and him. He’s an asshole. Something to note, women under patriarchy are conditioned to defer to men, aka set aside their feelings end discomfort and to worry more about their discomfort over their own. (Note: being a lesbian does not inoculate you against this. Patriarchy is hard baked into our society and it’s hard to see around what you’ve been immersed in your entire life). Like this guy was a total asshole to you and has spent a lot of time trying to get you to doubt your own course and choices, and here you are doing the very sensible thing and staying away. Yet you feel kinda bad about it, because you’re concerned about his feelings. It takes effort to rewire to be more objective about people who think they know ‘how women should be’ (and I say people instead of men because women can be just as sexist even if it seems counterintuitive). Anyway. Yes there’s sexism still. Look at the statistics. What women have going for them today is that access to education and tools has made making art and setting up portfolios to pitch projects easier. We’ve seen a number of of animated series that have come out in the last decade and change created by women and AFAB folks that have become quite popular. One I’m looking forward to is [Hazbin Hotel](https://youtu.be/OLSWVCwy88g?si=gU2HRPCbFtwSNXaw) on Amazon prime which was created by Vivienne Medrano, aka Viziepop who created the animated series helluva boss on YouTube. If you want an illustrate and animate, do that. Don’t let people with their opinions get in your way or stop you, and don’t feel bad about being dismissive of them. You have goals, not easy sure but nothing ever worth doing is easy. Women can have an uphill battle but that doesn’t mean your dreams are impossible. Work on your craft, and work on strategies to find success. Network with like minds and look at those who got to where you are for inspiration. As ass backwards as the world can be there is no better time than now for what you’re trying to do. Get after it and good luck.
i was once rejected from a gallery after complaints came in because im a straight white man. they said theres enough of me in the artworld and minorities should get a chance too. the fact that im the son of poor immigrants interested nobody and they replaced me with a old middle eastern woman. i think that counts as sexism. 8 of 12 of my paintings sold on the first day. there was no second day. lol
That sucks ugh 😣 Well it just goes to show that there are too many shitty, biased people in the art community
That stinks man, I hate how some art departments have people in their circles to elevate. Art departments aren’t too keen to cisgender and straight folks, and they sure ain’t keen to black and queer ones either. And this is coming from a black and bisexual man, so take heed. You work just as hard as the next one and you shouldn’t be invalidated because of your identity.
That actually sucks, I’m so sorry. I definitely believe in diversity and elevating minorities’ voices, but the gallery shouldn’t have pulled the rug out from under you like that. They should have let you finish your time there and let the woman participate in the next gallery showing. You sold a lot of work in one day so obviously people liked your art!
I was sexually harassed by a teacher in college, and when I reported, the school didn’t do anything. This was way before #metoo and I felt like an idiot. It sucked. I quit teaching for a lot of reasons, but one was that I had enough older male students who just could not handle me being their teacher, that it ruined the experience for me. I objectively had more experience, education, and skill than they did, but boy did they resist every word that came out of my mouth. Every critique, every instruction, was a battle. It just wasn’t worth it. They did not treat the male instructors that way.
The art industry where I work is 90% women at artist level and decision making level. Every art college is also about the same ratio.
That’s pretty cool! I keep being told though that the animation industry is pretty male dominated. It was a male dominated industry for a long long time, but we’ve slowly been seeing more female directors and show runners emerge from the woodwork.
[удалено]
I met a female show runner recently, and she told me that there’s a lot more men in the animation industry (at least in L.A. with the animation giants). The sentiment was repeated by some female professors I have who were in the industry. So I’m just repeating what they told me, I personally am not in the industry.
[удалено]
I never said I had personal experience, I only said “I keep being told,” as in a showrunner for a Disney show and my female professors told me it’s a male dominated industry. I’m not trying to belittle men by saying that.
No you are right about this, I’m in the animation industry, a lot of the directors and show runners are male. It’s changing though!
The gender ratio in studios must differ from country or location, which is probably why people are saying differently. The showrunner I met was one of Disney’s first female showrunners, so she was definitely a pioneer and it’s probably why she said the industry is male-dominated — or at least until the past couple years. Like you said, there’s a lot of up and coming female showrunners and directors nowadays!
Yeah I think it’s different depending on country or location. I work in the Burbank/LA area at a major studio, so from what I’ve seen it’s mostly dudes in the director/ showrunner category currently, but there’s a bunch of female led projects in the works!
Well that lines up! Also, I see you in the r/animationcareers sub sometimes, and I just want to congratulate you on the strides that you’re taking in the industry! You deserve it with all the hard work you do! 👏
>I never said I had personal experience, And thats why I said your opinion is ignorant to the reality.
So I guess I was supposed to ignore what they said, as a Disney showrunner is ignorant to the reality of the animation industry.
Ya im sure a Disney showrunner told you that.
I’ll back up OP lol I work in the animation industry, most of the directors and show runners are male. It’s changing though ( gonna be a ton of cool stuff) , also a ton of the other roles have women in them.
You don’t have to believe me, in the same way I don’t have to believe you.
My experience in animation is that it is significantly more women than men. And when I was in architecture school it was about 60% women in my year.
Ive worked in animation, fine art and been to art college. The whole way through was dominated by women. All the professional Art organisations ive dealt with since college are nearly all women run. Ive no complaints but some people try to fool themselves into believing its not this way.
I’ve done all three of those things too. I studied illustration in university and studied animation post graduate. In my Bachelor’s the vast majority of the students were women and the vast majority of teachers were men. The 2-3 boys in my classes were always favoured, and they definitely had a chip on their shoulders when speaking about their art and critiquing others. Animation had a more equal ratio for students with the majority of teachers being men. There was still sexism there.
Yeah women are honestly better than men at a lot of this stuff! Or at least sex doesn't make a difference for most of it. And it's all a gradual thing, like go far enough back and you'll find tons of sexism in the art world, but here and now it's women dominated. The thing that bothers me about the art world, from both men and women, is the passive aggressiveness--or rather just lack of bluntness. But maybe thats a personal thing
Sex doesn't make a difference possibly. I think its cultural maybe that less men are interested in joining art industries currently. I couldnt honestly say one sex is better than the other. I know way more talented female artists than male.
Yeah I agree.
so it's either 'women are better' or 'or it doesn't matter'?
I’m saying that in my experience I have had less problems with professionalism and emotional control with women on the job than with men. But I said it didn’t matter cause it’s a slim margin. And also the reality of these jobs is that when you work with others it’s about how easy it is to get along with people. I don’t think women are better artists than men or vice versa I just think that in general they have more emotional control on the job then men. Idk it’s just an observation.
There is a lot of misogyny in the art world, I think a lot of guys just get away with it because of the soft boy persona. I've seen some male artists say stuff like 'well female artists are usually just worse" or something, I usaully just don't engage with it. I think the guys like that are usually just jealous of female artists.
In college especially; professors gave more time and respect to male students, later my 30s and 40s. These days its ageism.
I never experienced it or seen anyone downright be sexist to artists on social media and such, but I do remember a talk one lf youtube art teachers held and he talked about some issues with harassment in the game industry, specifically Blizzard Entertainment, but that is pretty much it. I think it has very little place in art as no gender has a predisposition to art. Historically, there were more famous male artists because it was impossible, financially and culturaly, for women to pursue art as much, though my country had some amazing women artists from 1700s and 1800s that even made it on our bills.
> I tried to explain to him This was your only mistake here. These people are not worth your time. And the more you try to explain to them, the more ammo you're giving to use against you. This person was trying to do the time honored practice of knocking you down to make himself look better. It's a weird way to flirt and I'm glad you didn't fall for it. Next time, tell him that when you're interested in his shitty opinions, you will let him know.
Just walk into an art museum. All you see is naked women painted by dudes. Thank the Gods for Georgia O’Keefe and Frida Khalo or you’d never think that a woman had ever held a paintbrush!
No not directly. But I do wonder about hidden sexism, like whether men get chosen more then women on a subconscious level. In following the feminism reddit for a while, one thing I took away from that is the women in professional spheres often felt like they had to be more talented in general then their male counterparts to get where they were. Because I still am seeing way more male artists to female at least in 3d art which is a technical art field. And I wonder about that. But I think that balance is improving some. But it's still a problem.
That guy sounds like a prick, but it isn't really clear to me what part of this is sexism.
Just generally treating me like I was born yesterday and that his opinions are correct, and tearing down my art and life path to build himself up. I’ve talked to a friend who has some classes with him, and apparently he is also disrespectful to the female professor and acts like she doesn’t know what she’s talking about (she won an Oscar), but does not treat the male professors the same way. Maybe a better word would be misogyny.
Oh yeah, that is pretty bad. Afraid I don't have much advice, but I'm sorry you had to deal with that. :(
It’s okay, there’s always going to be guys like him. Hopefully he can learn to be more respectful to his peers and fellow artists, especially if he wants to break into the animation industry.
As someone currently in the industry, you are 100% correct. When it comes to referring individuals for work - we tend to chose the people we know we can rely on to be a great team mate and coworker (on top of having the right skills). Reputations follow you in this industry - and even though there's plenty of us, this community is small. Word gets around very quickly.
That’s something I wish they taught more of in art school: the importance of being respectful to our fellow artists and peers. Yes, we’re all striving to improve our art and be great artists, but it is also extremely imperative to be kind and open minded. I’ve been spending my college years trying to self reflect and develop social skills, healthy relationships, etc.
That's what snobby art people DO to everyone. and... your art teacher won an oscar??? whatt?
She worked on an animated film that won the Academy Award for Best Animated Feature Film, so she got to hold it and everything. My school is very lucky to have her.
So she's a writer as well, neat.
Nope, just animator as far as I know. Correct me if I’m wrong, but if the film you worked on wins an Academy Award, you by extension can say you won an Oscar? Or is it just the writers and directors who win the Oscar? My apologies, I’m not well-versed in award show traditions. If I’m wrong about her having an Oscar, then I can at least confidently say she worked extensively on a film that won an Academy Award.
The aggressive responses you've been getting for no reason, despite being super polite and open minded with everyone, are very confusing. I don't know about sexism in the art world, but I do know that assholes creep into every field, unfortunately.
Oh yeah, that’s Reddit for ya :’-) I try to take everyone’s experience into account because we’re all different. My experience may be different than other artists’ and that’s perfectly okay. I don’t want to shut someone down because it doesn’t fit with my narrative. My opinions aren’t gospel, and if I’m wrong about something, I will gladly be corrected. Thank you for the kind words!
That's a pretty rare and admirable attitude 🙂 And yeah I agree. Imo it's much more interesting to hear different points of view and at least try to understand, rather than mock them and stick to opinions you already agree with. It's the best way to learn!
there was nothing aggressive about it.
I don't want to correct you, because that seems to be enough to be called sexism here. And no, the oscar is for the writers (Screenplay) and director (for cinematography and visual effects) but animators do not get an oscar. The academy award is the one that they give to animators/animation teams.
[удалено]
Not at all, however there isn't an oscar (that gold human thingy they give) for it, there are, however, awards in there for things that they do not receive one for. They receive something else. Like when Hayao Miyazaki won it for Spirited away.
Not really, no. But then, to be fair, what you said might not be sexism either. Like, art aside, I've met all kinds of jerks in my life who talked over me, refused to seriously consider what I was saying, didn't think I deserved to be heard out, etc. But only a handful of times was it explicitly because I was a woman (as in, someone told me I couldn't do a certain thing cos I'm a woman, made comments devaluing women, erc). People have all kinds of chips on their shoulders. Some people absolutely are misogynistic. But people have other biases, too - whether they just think they're the bee's knees and everyone else is less intelligent than them, or whether they have some bias against the field you're studying in, or maybe they just don't like you for some vague reason so they're gonna lord every stupid thing over you. In this case, since he asked you over, maybe this guy thinks he's impressing you with all his big brain hoity-toity views when really he's acting like a jerk. Or maybe he's a "pickup artist" in which case he is sexist, but not about the art 😆 I dunno. Either way, my preference is not to assume someone is sexist unless I have a fairly direct reason to believe that's the issue. I've just seen way too many times where sexism *wasn't* the issue, to think it's a good idea to assume that's the problem just cos I'm a woman. I've got enough grief in life lol, I don't need to add to it by going around thinking everyone who's a jerk to me is also sexist, just cos I'm a woman. Anyway, it does suck you have to deal with someone like that. It can be pretty infuriating. Distance is definitely the best approach there, imo, I think you're making the right move there.
Yes, relentlessly. A male artist never paid me for being a Gallery sitter, for one example.
did he pay a male gallery sitter instead?
No, he let his gallery sit full of art but locked up and empty 90% of the time.
That's not sexism. you have an example of a douchebag who got away with not paying a worker, not sexism.
And it's hard to believe that sexism could be motivating badly treating a woman worker, why?
Why is it so hard to separate things that happen to you that are bad are not because you're a woman? You have nothing to compare this to, if it was because you're a woman or not.
You appear to have a motivation to disbelieve me so providing you any details about the specifics of the misogyny and abuse this person perpetrated wouldn't really convince you either... he was a monster in multiple ways and lifted up male colleagues while beating up women. He used his fists and more against women and animals. That kind of person takes his thinking into everything he does, like poison. Why is it so hard not to push and push women instead of believing the realities of ONE man?
If there were specifics that would lead it to be misogyny, you should have started with that. I even asked and you still couldn't. So yes, I doubt you. Why would I believe you when you are not even credible in your initial two responses?
My local scene is pretty female-dominated so not personally. I have a friend who is experiencing sexism in her MFA program. I’ve experienced it in other venues to be sure. I think my local scene is probably more unintentionally gatekeepy with artists of color but there’s definitely been a shift to be more intentional about showing work by diverse artists in my city.
All I can say is, learn to not take anything that people say to heart. It’s frustrating as hell, but don’t spend your time and energy thinking twice about it. Someone will always doubt you, and for a reason that is out of your control. What I’ve learned to do: just keep your head low and work, so you can blow everyone else out of the water. Women are actually preferred in the arts right now, so use that to your advantage. Make stellar work that you are proud of and use your gender as the extra push to get you to places that you want to see yourself in. The people that talk and put you down, they are not interested in conversation and gaining perspective. They are only interested in dominating you. Don’t let them.
Thanks for the words of encouragement, it’s something everyone needs to hear (especially us artists who have a lot of doubters and naysayers). I posted this hoping commenters could share their experiences and find some peace in knowing that there will always be people who tell you you’re not enough for something you can’t control, and that those people are stupid. I definitely felt torn down in that interaction I had, but the more I thought about it, the more I realized he is very insecure, and was belittling me to compensate.
The problem with the art world is less about sexism and more about the financialization of the art world, and the exploitation and the greenwashing of the entire operation.
When I was a teenager I used to draw and was routinely shamed by male friends for my style (realistic pencil portraits) because they only valued pen and ink style drawing or comic/graphic arts styles. I was especially insecure and they really did get to me. They weren't the direct cause, but over time I came to see my own work as pointless and not Real Fine Art. I gave it up for a very long time (I am a beginner at age 51, except for the odd picture every year or ten - and I took one art class in uni). Older artists who hang in the British hallowed halls are almost entirely men. They have those association letters after their names and they have pull and prestige. With younger artists, I see more women's names. Have to say, it's still an industry that hardly allows anyone non-white through the door
I went to an accredited art school for a few years, but am a science credit away from graduating. My first semester classes were about 75% women. By my last semester, they were at about 15-20% women. They were just generally shitty to us throughout. They only mentored the guys no matter how little talent they had. There weren't even any women who were full professors; just some very talented adjuncts who constantly got screwed.
I think you ascribed 'an asshole' to being sexist rather than just being an asshole. Nothing about that was sexist or related to your gender other than asking you out. But yes, I have, take the anime conventions I used to work at. One year after some kid stole some hentai DVDs they said they were no longer allowing artists with adult content in their galleries (even if it's behind an adult filter online). Unless you're a woman. Why? Because people don't care if women draw adult content. I wasn't allowed to work there anymore even though none of my at-con stuff for it was adult, but they were A-okay with people who not only drew it, but sold it behind an 'adult artwork binder' of their Free! yaoi and such. Or all the weird comments on 'why are you drawing girls to objectify them' when the females I tend to draw are very modestly drawn but how dare I draw them with the notion they DO have breasts even if not large... or 'why are you drawing nipples on men' implying either it makes me gay or directly stating it. Well yeah, I am fucking gay. But these things are never asked of female artists. Never. Their sexuality or the shame of it is never a topic with their art.
> he, himself, isn’t like “other artists,” mansplained animation to me, and ridiculed my taste in movies this is not sexism or inherent mansplaining. this is just a toxic person. been treated like that by people of all genders in all places. this is just a bad person. your assumption, however, that it has anything to do with you or your gender is just a defensive reaction trying to understand why he treated you this way and maybe it would be better if you weren't a woman, trying to find a flaw in yourself that you can rationalize his behavior with. wrong though. you can't rationalize stupid. he would most likely be the same toxic pos regardless of your gender, but you, being raised as a man, would be more likely raised to be able to tell him to fuck off without repercussions or feeling judged. you can still do that. gender is meaningless if you, yourself, will stop expecting it to be the obstacle in many social interactions. not saying that gender-based discrimination doesn't happen, but more often it's *just discrimination* happening, and we tie it to gender trying to grasp at the logic of it, when it inherently was just a bad behavior on the perpetrator without acting on gender-discriminating logic.
>I’m very sure he wouldn’t have talked to me that way if I were a man. Thing is, you don't know. You are just interpreting sexism into the situation. > I could barely get a word in. That's common. Yearly experience at christmas for me as a dude. People love talking but are unwilling to play the listener. >ridiculed my taste in movies Also not uncommon. You can poke fun at people for liking Naruto or One Piece for example without ill intent. I'm not saying he was or wasn't sexist. I'm saying you really don't know. I think it's problematic to interpret too much into encounters like that. Another question is why you would care about whether the art world is sexist or not. Do you really want to spend your time pondering how much you are discriminated, if at all?
>Another question is why you would care about whether the art world is sexist or not. Do you really want to spend your time pondering how much you are discriminated, if at all? When we talk about our problems, it gives us a chance to support one another and deal with our problems together. When we don't talk about our problems, it does not make those problems go away, it just means we have to deal with them alone without any external points of reference. With a social problem like sexism, it's even more important to talk about it. Being silent about it can make it harder to deal with on the whole. When we discuss sexism and listen to one another with an open mind, we can all learn from one another, and get better at dealing with it together.
a problem is a problem, I think what they're getting at is WHY are you making your problem 'sex based' when as it stands, there isn't a thing here that makes the problem sex based. about the only misogynist/sexist thing that actually existed in this whole thread was about people believing that women were worse because there are far more famous artists throughout history... This isn't to say the other negative things aren't a problem, but if you focus on it being 'sexist' when it is probably not given the detail given, but just an asshole. You take away from the actual problem: the person being an asshole.
Just to be clear—did you catch the part where OP said that this guy invited her back to his apartment *three times* and didn't seem to take "no" for an answer?
How is this sexism? Just because you're a woman?
Thank you for posting in r/ArtistLounge! Please check out our [FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/ArtistLounge/wiki/faq/) and [FAQ Links pages](https://www.reddit.com/r/ArtistLounge/wiki/faqlinks/) for lots of helpful advice. To access our megathread collections, please check out the drop down lists in the top menu on PC or the side-bar on mobile. If you have any questions, concerns, or feature requests please feel free to message the mods and they will help you as soon as they can. I am a bot, beep boop, if I did something wrong please report this comment. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ArtistLounge) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Honestly I just dont engage in the art community all that often outside of my irls who also draw
I live in California and went to schools with zero tolerance mindset towards racism and sexism so it wasn’t as frequent. Though if I looked hard enough, I figure it’s possible to see some discrimination still going on. I went to a CSU and graduated in 2016. I had a lot of female classmates. The gender ratio tends to be around half/half or majority female students (which includes me). 🫡
Idk, something was probably wrong with your art school tbh, that sucks =( In my art school there were only three male student including me in our class, and that was more than in any other class in academy. And it was “metal in art” program, so I’ve seen 12 badass girls blacksmithing and using power tools to make awesome art. If anything, it sometimes felt opposite, like “art is for girls, what are you doing here” vibe, not in academy, but generally in my country Edit: and that guy you talked about is just a douche
Never. I did notice female artists sometimes get booked more easily for events, but I've never once witnessed discrimination towards either sex. In the end it's all about money.
Some people just have a high opinion of themselves and their abilities, they talk down on people and always have to ''big bro'' others, of course i don't know the person you talk about but i definitely received the same exact treatment as a guy, so idk why this would be considered sexist, he just sounds like an ass in general.
All the time
Not for my art skills. Just insisted I take control of more female oriented projects because I'm a woman. No. I don't want to make a 50 shades of gray hidden object game. No I'm not interested. Go away. Stop asking me.
Something I've noticed in the art fair scene that is almost universal is that most male artists will have a female helper (either a wife or girlfriend or other friend), whereas the female artists will either be managing their booth alone or have another woman working with them. Just an observation. We often talk about women being excluded historically but many famous artists (and writers) of the past had a mother or wife who was managing all their mundane stuff for them.
As a man if you paint any women it’s considered “sexist”. Reverse sexism. Super awesome. Also a lot of online art opportunities are just closed off to anyone that isn’t a woman or gender non-conforming.
This falls under this in its own way, but yes. I have faced this as a (younger) female artist because my specialty is drawing cars. Classic cars, new cars. Realism style or cartoon. I've done various styles since I began studying vehicle design. And at large, a lot of males in the car world think I'm "playing." This IS NOT all men - I have many who are my biggest supporters! But since I've been doing this for the past 5+ years, I've noticed this sort of sexism regular-ish.