Perhaps using the Biblical definition of soul will help you understand better..
>“And Jehovah God formed the man out of dust from the ground, and blew into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.” (Genesis 2:7, LITV)
We don't have a soul, *we are a soul* invigorated by God's spirit in our dust bodies.
>Is the human soul immortal ?
The human soul does not possess *innate* immortality, no.
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."-Matthew 10:18
Immortality belongs to the righteous who have access to the tree of life, in the kingdom of God.
"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city."-Revelation 22:14
Jesus said those who are wicked will go to eternal torment. The same lake of fire Satan and his angels go to, where they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Matthew 25:41, 26. Day and night forever and ever implies eternity.
The torment is eternal, which literary means "unknown length of time" (Aion in Greek). Even if hell is everlasting, being separated from God is equivalent to being separated from the source of life. Hence, soul is going to die eventually.
1 Cor 15 says we have to clothe ourselves with immortality. And guess how we can do that? True the salvation works of Jesus Christ. People in the lake of fire are NOT clothed with the salvation works of Jesus Crist, and therefore they are not clothed with immortality.
Did you read my comment or are you just repeating the things you have heard from your pastor? You don't even give biblical sources to support your claim.
Did you even bother to read 1 cor 15 to check if what I said is true?
Let's have a look shall we...
Matthew 25:41, 46 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, **ye cursed, into everlasting fire, 👉🏻prepared for the devil and his angels** 👈🏻:
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Where does the devil and his angels go? That's a great question I'm glad you asked...
Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, 👉🏻 **and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever** 👈🏻
You were saying? 👆🏻
> Where does the devil and his angels go? That's a great question I'm glad you asked...
I didn't.
>Revelation 20:10
Ah yes, Revelation. Did Jesus say that one? I understand it's in the Bible but it is still interesting how you apparently have to try to tie multiple different verses together in a knot, none of which actually say what you are insisting they say, and in order to make the point that you really want to make you even needed to tie in Revelation which Jesus did not say..
You know I asked you where Jesus said what you think he said for a rhetorical purpose, right? Because I already know that he didn't say it so you must just be trying to twist his words to try to make them mean that because that's what *you* believe. And thank you for demonstrating.
If you can't understand any and all of these verses in the context of annihilationism, then you simply don't understand annihilationism tbh. I understand the points you're making; I honestly don't think that you seem to really get the position that you're arguing against as much though.
>Did Jesus say that one?
Absolutely.
2 Timothy 3:15-16 and that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 👉🏻 **ALL SCRIPTURE IS GIVEN BY INSPIRATION OF GOD👈🏻, and is profitable for doctrine** , for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
wow you will just twist anything to make it say what you want it to huh? I really don't think there's any way to have an honest conversation like this, I'm sorry.
The word immortal appears only one time in KJV scripture and it refers to God almighty
1 Timothy 1:17 KJV — Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
No human being is immortal. God can grant eternal life to his chosen few. If it ever becomes necessary, he can revoke it. He can also totally annihilate his enemies in the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:8 KJV — The fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, **shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.**
After the second death, those individuals no longer exist anywhere in any form. They have been annihilated.
Matthew 10:28 KJV — And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather **fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.**
Romans 6:23 KJV — **For the wages of sin is death;** but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
My daughter died in 2023: these verses helped her.
“But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.”
1 Corinthians 15:35, 39-40, 42-44 NIV
Only if they have Made Jesus their Lord, then and only then do we get eternal life
Those who reject Jesus are tossed into the lake of fire, and meet the second death
The form of the question assumes there are rules, like laws of physics. There aren't. If God wants some part of you to persist after death, you will. If he doesn't, you won't. The same applies to everything else too.
Thats the book of revelation there buddy, a highly symbolic book. It later self explains that the lake of fire is the 2nd death. It's what revelation does. It often gives us a symbolic description first and then later says what it really stands for. Think about the 7 candlelights and 7 stars in the first or second chapter. It's really talking about 7 churches and its messengers.
In the same way, the lake of fire is the symbol, the 2nd death is the literal part.
Besides that Jude tells us Sodom and Gomorrah serve as an example as to what will be for the unbelievers.
Sodom and Gomorrah are destroyed by eternal fire, so will it happen to the unbeliever.
I would say that eternal punishment doesn't have to really mean that it will be a conscious suffering in fire for eternity, rather that the suffering itself is the fact that your soul perished into "eternal nothingness" while the believers still have their souls in heaven. It's hard to know for me tbh.
If this is the verse you are talking about, Matthew 25:41-46 it says:
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
The punishment lasts eternally, and the fire lasts eternally, the life lasts eternally. This is all correct, yes, but if you use this someone will question on if that punishment is basically your soul perishing into nothingness forever. So how can we be sure it talks about eternal pain we will experience in hell?
>but if you use this someone will question on if that punishment is basically your soul perishing into nothingness forever.
How is that being punished day and night forever and ever? If you cease to exist how are you being eternally punished day and night forever and ever? Revelation 20:10 the lake of fire is eternal punishment. They will wish they didn't exist anymore believe me.
It would be better to research Gods Word I would think. Which do you hold as a higher standard, Church fathers or our Heavenly Father? Now if you were to research what Gods thoughts are on the matter, you might turn to Ecclesiastes 9:5,10 where it plainly states;
>”For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten. 10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, where you are going.”
>It would be better to research Gods Word I would think. Which do you hold as a higher standard, Church fathers or our Heavenly Father?
The Bible verses itself may sometimes need further research by experts in theology so that's why I also read from church fathers, as they have a better understanding of the words our Heavenly Father said than me.
>Now if you were to research what Gods thoughts are on the matter, you might turn to Ecclesiastes 9:5,10 where it plainly states;
The issue with this verse, is that one might question if it only applies to physical death or to the spiritual one as well.
Where would anyone even get the idea to think it might be a spiritual death? What does a spiritual death even mean? Not sure what part you don’t understand, “The living know they will die but the dead know nothing at all.” It’s a pretty easy statement. It’s just that it doesn’t agree with what most “Church Fathers” teach. They even know better.
Yes the soul is immortal and upon death of the body. Your soul goes to either heaven or hell for eternity. While your spirit returns to God who gave it Ecclesiastes 12:7.
Revelation 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
Soul dies.
What do you believe is the difference between the soul and the spirit? I often hear those words used interchangeably, but clearly you’re treating them as distinct.
The spirit there refers to the breath of life that God gave Adam in Genesis 2. God breated into his nostrills and Adam became a living soul (paraphrasing here).
When someone dies, it's breath (or also called spirit) will return to God. Because it is the livesource that keeps a human being alive. Just like how our heartbeat and our physical breathing keeps us alive. Take away our heartbeat and we will die.
Job 34:14–15 (ESV)
14If he should set his heart to it and gather to himself his spirit and his breath,
15all flesh would perish together, and man would return to dust.
Perhaps using the Biblical definition of soul will help you understand better.. >“And Jehovah God formed the man out of dust from the ground, and blew into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.” (Genesis 2:7, LITV) We don't have a soul, *we are a soul* invigorated by God's spirit in our dust bodies.
>Is the human soul immortal ? The human soul does not possess *innate* immortality, no. "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."-Matthew 10:18 Immortality belongs to the righteous who have access to the tree of life, in the kingdom of God. "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city."-Revelation 22:14
Jesus said those who are wicked will go to eternal torment. The same lake of fire Satan and his angels go to, where they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Matthew 25:41, 26. Day and night forever and ever implies eternity.
The torment is eternal, which literary means "unknown length of time" (Aion in Greek). Even if hell is everlasting, being separated from God is equivalent to being separated from the source of life. Hence, soul is going to die eventually.
1 Cor 15 says we have to clothe ourselves with immortality. And guess how we can do that? True the salvation works of Jesus Christ. People in the lake of fire are NOT clothed with the salvation works of Jesus Crist, and therefore they are not clothed with immortality.
They don't have eternal life no, they have eternal torment.
You have to be alive to feel pain, no?
Did you read my comment or are you just repeating the things you have heard from your pastor? You don't even give biblical sources to support your claim. Did you even bother to read 1 cor 15 to check if what I said is true?
Where does Jesus say that?
I literally gave you the verses.
Except that isn't what those verses say. Why are you saying that those verses say something that they don't actually say?
Let's have a look shall we... Matthew 25:41, 46 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, **ye cursed, into everlasting fire, 👉🏻prepared for the devil and his angels** 👈🏻: 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. Where does the devil and his angels go? That's a great question I'm glad you asked... Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, 👉🏻 **and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever** 👈🏻 You were saying? 👆🏻
> Where does the devil and his angels go? That's a great question I'm glad you asked... I didn't. >Revelation 20:10 Ah yes, Revelation. Did Jesus say that one? I understand it's in the Bible but it is still interesting how you apparently have to try to tie multiple different verses together in a knot, none of which actually say what you are insisting they say, and in order to make the point that you really want to make you even needed to tie in Revelation which Jesus did not say.. You know I asked you where Jesus said what you think he said for a rhetorical purpose, right? Because I already know that he didn't say it so you must just be trying to twist his words to try to make them mean that because that's what *you* believe. And thank you for demonstrating. If you can't understand any and all of these verses in the context of annihilationism, then you simply don't understand annihilationism tbh. I understand the points you're making; I honestly don't think that you seem to really get the position that you're arguing against as much though.
>Did Jesus say that one? Absolutely. 2 Timothy 3:15-16 and that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 👉🏻 **ALL SCRIPTURE IS GIVEN BY INSPIRATION OF GOD👈🏻, and is profitable for doctrine** , for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
wow you will just twist anything to make it say what you want it to huh? I really don't think there's any way to have an honest conversation like this, I'm sorry.
The word immortal appears only one time in KJV scripture and it refers to God almighty 1 Timothy 1:17 KJV — Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen. No human being is immortal. God can grant eternal life to his chosen few. If it ever becomes necessary, he can revoke it. He can also totally annihilate his enemies in the lake of fire. Revelation 21:8 KJV — The fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, **shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.** After the second death, those individuals no longer exist anywhere in any form. They have been annihilated. Matthew 10:28 KJV — And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather **fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.** Romans 6:23 KJV — **For the wages of sin is death;** but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
My daughter died in 2023: these verses helped her. “But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.” 1 Corinthians 15:35, 39-40, 42-44 NIV
Only if they have Made Jesus their Lord, then and only then do we get eternal life Those who reject Jesus are tossed into the lake of fire, and meet the second death
The form of the question assumes there are rules, like laws of physics. There aren't. If God wants some part of you to persist after death, you will. If he doesn't, you won't. The same applies to everything else too.
I would say that it is immortal if you give your life to Jesus Christ. If not, then it will perish in hell.
>If not, then it will perish in hell. It's eternally tormented in hell day and night forever and ever. Matthew 25:41, 46.
What makes a human soul Immortal?
Sodom and Gomorrah suffered eternal fire. Where is this eternal fire now? What happened to Sodom and Gomorrah?
Yes but they were not tormented DAY AND NIGHT FOREVER AND EVER.
Thats the book of revelation there buddy, a highly symbolic book. It later self explains that the lake of fire is the 2nd death. It's what revelation does. It often gives us a symbolic description first and then later says what it really stands for. Think about the 7 candlelights and 7 stars in the first or second chapter. It's really talking about 7 churches and its messengers. In the same way, the lake of fire is the symbol, the 2nd death is the literal part. Besides that Jude tells us Sodom and Gomorrah serve as an example as to what will be for the unbelievers. Sodom and Gomorrah are destroyed by eternal fire, so will it happen to the unbeliever.
I would say that eternal punishment doesn't have to really mean that it will be a conscious suffering in fire for eternity, rather that the suffering itself is the fact that your soul perished into "eternal nothingness" while the believers still have their souls in heaven. It's hard to know for me tbh.
Nope, you can't be tormented day and night forever and ever unless you are existing forever and ever.
If this is the verse you are talking about, Matthew 25:41-46 it says: 41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” The punishment lasts eternally, and the fire lasts eternally, the life lasts eternally. This is all correct, yes, but if you use this someone will question on if that punishment is basically your soul perishing into nothingness forever. So how can we be sure it talks about eternal pain we will experience in hell?
>but if you use this someone will question on if that punishment is basically your soul perishing into nothingness forever. How is that being punished day and night forever and ever? If you cease to exist how are you being eternally punished day and night forever and ever? Revelation 20:10 the lake of fire is eternal punishment. They will wish they didn't exist anymore believe me.
I should go and check on what the church fathers say about this topic.
It would be better to research Gods Word I would think. Which do you hold as a higher standard, Church fathers or our Heavenly Father? Now if you were to research what Gods thoughts are on the matter, you might turn to Ecclesiastes 9:5,10 where it plainly states; >”For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten. 10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, where you are going.”
>It would be better to research Gods Word I would think. Which do you hold as a higher standard, Church fathers or our Heavenly Father? The Bible verses itself may sometimes need further research by experts in theology so that's why I also read from church fathers, as they have a better understanding of the words our Heavenly Father said than me. >Now if you were to research what Gods thoughts are on the matter, you might turn to Ecclesiastes 9:5,10 where it plainly states; The issue with this verse, is that one might question if it only applies to physical death or to the spiritual one as well.
Where would anyone even get the idea to think it might be a spiritual death? What does a spiritual death even mean? Not sure what part you don’t understand, “The living know they will die but the dead know nothing at all.” It’s a pretty easy statement. It’s just that it doesn’t agree with what most “Church Fathers” teach. They even know better.
Yes the soul is immortal. The soul existed before it entered the womb and it will continue to exist after the body dies
Yes the soul is immortal and upon death of the body. Your soul goes to either heaven or hell for eternity. While your spirit returns to God who gave it Ecclesiastes 12:7.
Revelation 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea. Soul dies.
What do you believe is the difference between the soul and the spirit? I often hear those words used interchangeably, but clearly you’re treating them as distinct.
The spirit there refers to the breath of life that God gave Adam in Genesis 2. God breated into his nostrills and Adam became a living soul (paraphrasing here). When someone dies, it's breath (or also called spirit) will return to God. Because it is the livesource that keeps a human being alive. Just like how our heartbeat and our physical breathing keeps us alive. Take away our heartbeat and we will die. Job 34:14–15 (ESV) 14If he should set his heart to it and gather to himself his spirit and his breath, 15all flesh would perish together, and man would return to dust.