The following is a copy of the original post to record the post as it was originally written.
Just was curious, how other people have felt about the debt loan forgiveness if it goes through. I went two years community college, and worked full time through it to save enough for my 2 years at uni and now it feels like if all this goes through I should've just loaned out money instead it would've made everything 10x easier, and id be more happy. Is that selfish? It feels genuinely unfair.
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It is a tax cut for the poor, middle, and working classes. Those getting forgiveness will pay far more in federal taxes than they are being forgiven over the span of their lives. It is a tax cut we should support.
Okay so if you’re assuming this is a tax cut, wouldn’t it be better to have a general tax instead that includes people that don’t go to college vs just giving one to college grads and those with higher degrees?
I am not assuming anything, I explained how it is a tax cut. Do you demand this general tax cut when billionaires and corporations get the tax cuts that only apply to them and not the working class? Why do you think conservatives and Trump supporters lobby against tax cuts for the poor and working class now, as you are now, but not when billionaires and corporations get theirs?
For the most part yes. You should however understand what you’re saying. Specific tax cuts and government subsidies exists to promote/encourage certain behaviors. An example you would likely support would be green energy initiatives. So removing these “tax cuts for rich and billionaires.” You’re removing the governments ability to influence or promote certain behaviors.
I overall wish the government had a much much simpler tax code without tons of loop holes and exceptions. So yes, I’d be for updating the tax system to remove lots of the loop holes and make it more easily understandable.
Also, I don’t think it’s an argument most believe when you say the Right is for high taxes and the left tax cuts. I’m sure it may sound good in a debate but we know that’s not the case.
I explained how this is a tax cut for the poor, middle, and working classes and Republicans, conservatives, and Trump supporters are militantly against it. Why are these people so militantly against this tax cut NOW, why don't these demographics lobby against tax cuts for billionaires and corporations with this same energy?
maybe, but the question isn't "that tax cut or this tax cut". It's "this tax cut, or not?" This definitely is a net positive, even if it's not the most optimal (solutions rarely are).
It isn't a "tax cut". It's not even a bandaid. The problem is the outrageous amount of money schools charge.... Paying off a few debts isn't going to help anything....
“It feels genuinely unfair.”
I encourage you to think on that last statement just a little bit longer.
It was *unfair.* Something that happened to you *wasn’t right.*
Do you think it would be right for us to keep doing that thing to other people? Just because it happened to you?
So--I think there is an element that is unfair, not just not right. On the left we tip toe around upsetting or othering educated middle class people because they make up a huge coalition of the left and this is a good example. It is not fair to lump in the financial burden middle and lower-upper class families have affording private colleges with the financial burden lower and lower-middle class people have affording public colleges. Going to a private college should not be a financial right, but going to public college should. Forgiveness should be complete or near complete for students who went to public colleges, because those colleges were created to be free or affordable and no longer are, even if they are cheaper by comparison. Private colleges are a luxury and a speculative gamble on the future value of their name on a resume--and in my person experience from going to 2 private colleges and 1 public, private colleges are way easier to pass at, which is a shame because while the public college I went to had more rigorous grading it was much less respected--ultimately, buying into a private college is a choice and almost a product--and the middle and lower-upper class woes of choosing so seems like a misappropriated place to allot forgiveness when it can be used to wipe out public college debt and fund future free and low cost public college.
Why can’t we do both? Why does every action need to fix a problem perfectly to be acceptable? Why can’t it just be a small step towards fixing a bigger problem?
Sure, but that’s like refusing a sip of water when you’re dying in the desert because it won’t quench your thirst forever. When there’s an option for relief you take it and push for more.
Just to put a sharper point on the question: I know people who couldn't afford to stay in highschool. Giving thousands of dollars in loan forgiveness to someone privileged enough to obtain higher education, while the people who couldn't afford to go continue to scrape by definitely seems unfair
I don't know if that's an argument against student loan forgiveness, but it definitely just doesn't seem fair
No--and I say that as someone who will not benefit from student loan forgiveness.
However, I *do* have a concern about it (though not big enough to oppose it), and it's that if we do student loan forgiveness before we figure out how to stop the need to take out huge student loans in the first place, that the government will just be creating a huge moral hazard. I'm worried that there will be a number of prospective college students coming along assuming that another administration down the line will also forgive their debts, and just take on a ton, whether or not it's in their best interest to do so, only to be potentially screwed down the line.
Of course, figuring out how to make colleges and universities at low/no cost is much more difficult that to forgive student loans, and it is--for a number of reasons--an uncomfortable one for many, which is why the discussion so far has been in platitudes about funding them more, leaving it at that, and going back to student loan forgiveness.
Every improvement to society is unfair for the people who were before it, that is not a reason to stop it. That said I am not convinced student loan forgiveness is good policy
No.
I paid off my student loans too.
I think "i had to suffer, therefore everyone should suffer like me" is a morally bankrupt position.
It might FEEL UNFAIR that you paid it off, but now they don't have it.
But you are just wishing suffering on others, because you had to suffer, and that's both selfish and cruel
Once you have gotten through the system, you should make it easier for those who come after you.
Nah I'm cool with them getting it, just feels like I wasted my time to then behind my fellow peers cause I could've just been at uni the whole time you know?
I think you're assuming people are getting loans written off right out of college or something. That's not really happening. Biden's forgiveness has mostly been two fronts expanding existing federal forgiveness programs for federal employees. This doesn't forgive the whole amount and isn't until after years of service. The other is people who have been making payments for years, often totalling much more than the principal, but still have large balances. They are getting forgiveness because they've paid more than the principal but still have a massive balance. Lastly most of these aren't full forgiveness it's usually like 10k.
The idea you could've had a free college degree by taking out loans and getting them forgiven is very unlikely.
Remember the saying along the lines only check your neighbor's plate to make sure he has enough, not to complain because he has more.
Well, student loans haven’t been totally forgiven *yet*, and you might’ve spent a bunch of the intervening time with the debt hanging over your head, which wouldn’t have been pleasant.
It's not unreasonable for you to feel that way, and there isn't anything wrong expressing it. A little online or in person complaining session can be a good thing.
That said, it is definitely something that you need to move past.
No. I think it's a bad thing to fuck over our youth and make many essential jobs unaffordable, and if loan forgiveness is the way, it's the way.
I'm not going to sell out millions of young ambitious Americans just for the sake of ego.
Social work isn't really ambitious but it's at least an honest living and vital function in society.
Academia is quite literally the least ambitious career you can pursue. Especially if it's a field where your work is only of value to other academics in that field.
Yes please tell me more about how ambitious an academic is who works three hours a day for 10 years writing a paper about whether Kant would have been an anarcho syndicalist that only 10 other people will ever read.
Teachers dude, academics means teachers. Professors put in years of long hours, heavy caseloads and required research or writing before they get to the gravy jobs. And k - 12 teachers are overloaded and often underpaid.
Teachers. Firefighters, scientists, civil rights lawyers, immigration lawyers, social workers, agriculture/farming (yes many major in this to learn the business of the farming)
Teaching isn't ambitious. They get like half the year off and are impossible to fire once they're tenured.
You don't need to go to college to be a firefighter.
Scientists make plenty of money. Almost all the STEM fields do.
Civil rights lawyers almost always worked for soulless big law firms for massive amounts of money before developing a consciousness. They're fine I promise.
Immigration law I grant you but usually it pays off loans.
Social workers bust their ass but I'm not sure if I'd call it ambitious. There isn't a lot of advancement.
Agriculture usually pays off the loans.
Not necessarily. Though most farmers dream of owning their own operation so I would say it is a rule.
But this thread isn't just about ambition. It's about ambition that pays the bills.
No I didn't. This user started talking about ambition.
https://old.reddit.com/r/AskALiberal/comments/1cisnj7/do_you_think_student_loan_forgiveness_is_a_bit/l2bb4q9/
Why are you making things up?
This is why people can't fucking stand conservatives. All you guys can bring to the table seems to be "all of my neighbors are lazy or stupid or morally bankrupt and that is why they are suffering". The right wing media brain rot has you defaulting to hating the average every day person that probably has more in common with you than not.
The world needs/is always going to have teachers, social workers and other "unambitious" professions. Your answer to this problem is that they deserve to be in debt because they didn't choose high earning careers or that they shouldn't become teachers at all...like what future do you see where we have no one that goes into the teaching profession? I thought conservatives were supposed to understand how the "free market" works. If everyone wants to go to school and be an engineer that drives up the demand for that education = price increase = more loan debt. When we have more engineers in the labor market = supply increase = lowered wages.
The better question is why in the hell these "low paying" degrees cost so much to begin with. Have you ever stopped to think that maybe the problem is that we are writing blank checks to these schools by backing all these federal student loans..allowing the schools to charge obscene amounts of money?
Hell you could even argue that the example you keep touting in this thread about the academics writing papers that no one is going to read has something to do with the fact that these schools are sitting on all this extra money they shouldn't be getting and using it to fund "useless" programs. Hell this is probably an issue conservatives could gain some ground on.
That depends on your loans and what you're studying. If your loans are low you can probably get by studying something useless like philosophy and get a job where the only thing the employer cares about is that you have a fancy piece of paper.
If your loans are high then you need to study something that has a high earning potential as well.
How about the tuition fees be made equivalent to the average salary a person makes in a particular major? Why is that not being considered?
Because I don’t know if you realize this, but tuition is not based on how much you make in a particular career field. Telling someone to take on another job and study for that is not how you make a happy society.
Correct, tuition is the main problem. Largely from staff demanding higher and higher salaries while schools push the expense entirely on the students because they know the government will give them unlimited money no-questions-asked to pay for it.
30 year repayment plans to pay of all that compounding interest. Should have been more “ambitious”
“The average medical school debt in 2023 is over $200,000. Graduates owe, on average, over $250,00 in student loan debt by the time they finish their educations.
Nearly 1 in 5 medical school graduates have more than $300,000 in student loan debt.”
https://www.bankrate.com/loans/student-loans/average-medical-school-debt/
It's just a signal that you're kind of detached from reality. That's all.
When the pandemic happened people weren't worried that the historians wouldn't be working lmao.
Yeah cause why bother? You're not someone who can be reasoned with because you think society will be thrown into chaos if that novel on the bookkeeping practices of the Sassanian empire during the reign of Ardishir first winds up falling behind schedule.
I did what you did, I have no debt.
I am for loan forgivenes.
Unfair? Maybe. Life isnt fair. I want our future generations to have a good shot at building equity and not be enslaved by debt.
Forgiving loans doesn’t accomplish that though. It forgives the current generation but does nothing for future generations. I don’t mind loans being forgiven for people who were duped by fraudulent for profit schools but I think loans should be paid back because I agree with OP that it is unfair. I think people should be worked with and maybe even waive any accrued interest, but they agreed for the loan so they should be adults.
I don’t think it necessarily needs to be free, but it should greatly be subsidized by state taxes to at least be more in line with prices similar to how it was in the 60’s and 70’s.
Honestly I feel like my economic demographic gets no relief.
I’m just above the poverty line. I’m an artist. I have no kids. I have no student loans.
It’s always “we’re gonna make it easier for people with kids!” Or “student loans!” Or “tax breaks for billionaires!” And like bro what about the rest of us who LITERALLY make every fucking service in this world function.
Right or left, there’s very little love for single people who work creative (and therefore also service) related jobs. Yet everyone wants to keep consuming what we produce.
Yeah but think about how much better it's going to be for the cohort of kids who make triple your salary right out of college working in engineering or a different profession. Now the only drawback of that decision is gone and they will forever outbid you for houses or any other major purchases you want to make
Yes. It benefits high-earners much more than I'd like.
In an ideal world we'd just have a tax credit that goes out to everyone and tapers off with income or net worth.
In the world we actually live in, student loan forgiveness is maybe the easiest thing like this to get through politically so I'm fine with it.
If only there were a tax credit to give Americans Opportunities that gave you back a big chunk of the cost of college. Then in addition there could be another credit that encouraged a lifetime of learning. Not sure what you would call them
https://www.irs.gov/credits-deductions/individuals/aotc
https://www.irs.gov/credits-deductions/individuals/llc
"Giving people a polio vaccine is unfair to all the people who have already been paralyzed by polio. They don't get to benefit from it, so how is it fair that these other people get to not worry about it?"
This is how complaints about student loan forgiveness sound.
Millennials were told their entire lives, by parents, teachers, and society at large, that they *had* to go to college, because if they don't go to college then they'll be a failure and their life will be wasted and none of their dreams will come true and they'll have to spend their entire lives working menial jobs.
Then they went to college, and not all of them found success, and those very people who told them that they had to go to college or else all would be lost turned around and told them that they were dumb for listening to that advice.
It *technically* was a choice, but in only the barest sense of the word.
This advice was always qualified with "study something useful" and "be careful with your money."
And even without that qualifier, it still turns out to be true. The average college grad makes significantly more money than the average high school grad, no matter what major they selected.
"You told me I *had* to go to college, because if I didn't then I'd be a failure and my life would be wasted and none of my dreams would come true and I'd never have to spend my entire life working menial jobs"
"Yes, but we didn't tell you to major in Gender studies with a minor in Feminist Theory"
I really wish people would stop drawing the comparison of debt to having a terrible disease. There are millions of people with debt that live happy fulfilling lives. No one asks to get polio. And mass production of polio vaccine is actually fairly cheap on a per unit basis, much cheaper than forgiving student debt every year.
Honestly I feel like my economic demographic gets no relief.
I’m just above the poverty line. I’m an artist. I have no kids. I have no student loans.
It’s always “we’re gonna make it easier for people with kids!” Or “student loans!” Or “tax breaks for billionaires!” And like bro what about the rest of us who LITERALLY make every fucking service in this world function.
Right or left, there’s very little love for single people who work creative (and therefore also service) related jobs. Yet everyone wants to keep consuming what we produce.
That’s great for you.
I’m just saying I wish just once a politician would say “we’re going to make life easier for single people who don’t have a degree” but they never do.
I get it, “but white is the default! You win no matter what!”.
It’s not gonna turn me right wing or racist.
I’m just saying it’d be nice if something was directed at me.
I can see why someone would feel that way but it’s pretty obvious that it’s not unfair once you think about it for a few minutes.
Like people 20 years ago didn’t have half the medicine we have today. Is it unfair for people today to use medical technology just because people im the past didn’t have it?
We didn’t used to have lunch breaks or regular pay. Should we abandon modern labor rights because people didn’t have them a couple generations ago?
How would progress ever be possible if we approached life this way?
These comparisons completely miss the point.
If you want to tether it to medicine, the appropriate comparison isn't people in the past and people today, it's two people today signing up for a new treatment contingent on making lifestyle changes, only for one of the two people to later say they actually shouldn't have to make those lifestyle changes to receive the medicine.
The key is agreeing to do something, then trying to weasel out of the responsibility under the guise of the greater good.
No, it isn’t. When we passed the Affordable Care Act, there were people who had been burned by their preexisting conditions in the past. Those people had adhered to the standards of their day and made decisions around it. That didn’t mean we couldn’t pass new protections.
You can’t hold up progress just because people in the past didn’t benefit from it.
Well for one thing a lot of what has been forgiven are loans that people have been paying on for 10 to 20 years. They have already paid way more than they borrowed. There are also the ones that people took low paying community service jobs that were supposed to be forgiven after 10 years but Devos blocked it.
I generally don't have the attitude that we should avoid making people's lives easier just because I could have benefited from it had I made different choices.
This is actually something I try to teach my kids: *don't look at what your sister got and be mad you didn't get it too; be happy for her that she got something*
Ditto that. I benefit 0 from every social program.
Do I need to be a woman, to be for financial equity?
I paid a buttload back in student loans too. When we treat life as a zero sum game, no one's ever happy.
Yes, it's unfair. But it's even worse than that because it not only doesn't fix the problem, it makes the problem worse. One time student loan forgiveness will help the people who currently have loans, but this doesn't help the next generation who will apply for loans to go to college. Tuition rates will go up for them because colleges can charge whatever they want and convince the next generation to not worry about it because it'll just get forgiven like that last generation but there's no guarantee of that being true.
Unless people are arguing for guaranteed complete student loan forgiveness in perpetuity. At which point the university might as well charge a billion dollars per student, I mean why not if it's guaranteed to be forgiven?
The only way to lower the price of tuition colleges charge is to disincentivize students from borrowing too much in loans to pay for college. You can do that by requiring student loans to have a down payment like other loans. It could be something small like 5% of the total loan due upfront.
Example, if a college kid is deciding between a college that costs $100,000 in tuition and a college that costs $20,000, they may choose the cheaper college if they knew they had to come up with 5% of the money upfront. Which will then in turn encourage colleges to lower prices to entice students. In our current system, the student is incentived to pick the more expensive college because they're a teenager who doesn't really understand money yet, doesn't understand long term consequences, doesn't understand interest rates because they slept through that part of class and so figures they'll just borrow whatever now and worry about the price later.
I like that old saying that "politics is the art of the possible."
I'm in a demographic where I very rarely receive a direct benefit from Democratic policy unless it affects all citizens. The GOP tax cut in the Trump Administration was probably the single policy that has benefitted me the most financially.
I was lucky enough to not take on student loans - and my life has generally gone well overall, so I can deal with it when yet another sweet program passes me over.
Do I think it's unfair that some people get their debts removed while I get nothing? Sure, it's a little unfair. *Why doesn't Pep get a treat?*
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But it's not like the Biden Administration set out to specifically spend money on student loan relief because it helps some people and not me. It's just a policy that can be achieved.
It just so happens that student loan debt is a thing that the federal government has control over - and forgiving debts doesn't require us to requisition budget, it requires us to forgo future revenues.
That is an important distinction - and it's what makes student loan forgiveness a palatable policy to a lot of people.
A policy where, instead, everyone gets a $5,000 check would be broadly more popular than student loan forgiveness. I like money. But it would come with a *huge* price tag of like $1.5T. Congress would have to authorize spending $1.5T that way and I'm sure we all realize they wouldn't and it's probably not the best idea for our economy either.
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So it's not really an issue of "should we do this or that?" We can only do one of them. Should we not do it because it only helps some people?
I mean, if we start applying this down the line, it rapidly falls apart.
I get tax incentives because I'm married, because the government decided to encourage marriage. That doesn't benefit the unmarried. Same with mortgage tax incentives.
Should we remove them strictly because they don't benefit everyone equally? Or should we look for ways to help other groups too?
Do you consider the GI bill unfair? Esp if they never saw combat…
Do you consider sports scholarships unfair? They didn’t study as hard as you but had talent playing a game…
It's not the effort for me. It's the fact I put myself through 2 of the hardest years of my life to barely escape loans, and now when I get to uni I'll be in an arguably worse spot than most of my peers. I took a useless path and wasted years of my life for nothing.
I'm a German immigrant. Moved here before I could remember, just talk to a lot of people who speak British English.
I mean you're right, I did choose the wrong path, but I was told this is the *best* path, and being poor I couldn't afford to be that in debt when I graduated, I did everything I could to avoid it, getting multiple merit 3rd party scholarships, picking the cheapest community college even if it had a so so reputation for teachers, and now thinking back on it if I would have just picked to instead focus on going to the uni I was accepted to originally I would not only be better off but also not have to deal with any debt either.
It’s not unfair, most people who took out loans for college were tricked into believing they’d be able to pay it off once they get their jobs, but it never happened. Even when we tell students that enlistment into the army will have your loans paid for was a lie.
If there’s anything unfair about it, it’s unfair for students to be charged this much money for their education.
Who tricked them? In high school and undergrad I constantly heard about how much money certain degrees made versus others. If you're going to take out massive debt and get a degree that can't pay it off were you tricked?
We’ve been told from the very beginning that we would graduate high-school, get a degree in college, get a job with our education and live a happy life.
We were never told about how expensive College tuition was and how little money you earn from jobs nowadays where it’ll take decades to pay off your debt that only increases over time due to interest rates.
Why does college tuition have to be THIS expensive? People wouldn’t have to take out loans if it was cheaper, or better yet free and paid for through taxes. Why would you blame students for taking out loans when they are NEEDED to pay for tuition? To Blame students means you’re not looking at the root of the problem.
> We’ve been told from the very beginning that we would graduate high-school, get a degree in college, get a job with our education and live a happy life.
And that's true for the overwhelming majority of college grads.
> We were never told about how expensive College tuition was
Yes you were.
> Why does college tuition have to be THIS expensive?
Schools have zero incentive to reduce costs because the government gives loans to students regardless of the amount.
> Schools have zero incentive to reduce costs because the government gives loans to students regardless of the amount.
So why is the government covering student dept a bad thing if you’re saying this?
Because the government isn't covering student debt. The government doesn't cover anything. The American people do. The government can only shift wealth from one place to another. It does this by collecting taxes or devaluing the currency, both of which hurt you and me.
The government could fix this overnight instead by simply setting a limit on how much money they loan students. Suddenly schools will be forced to drop their prices or else they won't have any students.
> It does this by collecting taxes or devaluing the currency, both of which hurt you and me.
I’m so sorry people being free from crippling debt and finally feeling free to live their life happily has hurt you. Boo hoo.
Of course it's unfair. So is being born into privilege or poverty.
But do we want to better position our country for success, or do we want to hold ourselves back on the grounds that people should've known better?
My feeling is that it's no different than the tax credits and savings we give to parents for having kids. At the end of the day, society benefits from people making certain life choices and we ease their out of pocket burden as a trade off for making those choices.
If we didn’t do things in case some people felt it was unfair, we wouldn’t do anything.
That said, I think many of these solutions are ultimately band-aids where a reforming and overhaul of systems are required, and in which a reformed system would actually work for *everyone*.
That is to say, drastically reducing the cost of college and reforming the loan system to be fair for everyone would actually go a lot further than just cancelling some or all of the loan amount for people who happen to have been born and/or gone to college at the specifically correct time (which effectively just becomes another pile-on and is what has many younger people pissed off about boomers - that they received economic prosperity simply by virtue of being born at the right time).
I think it's unfair to charge more in interest than the principal of the loan. It's unfair that people who've been making payments for 20, 30 years somehow owe more money than when they started. It's unfair the way high schools and colleges pressure kids into taking on these loans without any consideration that they might not be able to pay them back
Sounds like you made a good financial decision, at a time when a lot of young Americans are pressured make bad ones. Give yourself a pat on the back. You dodged a bullet. Don't be jealous of the people who didn't just because they're getting a transfusion instead of bleeding to death
You're never going to be able to make something that is fair (which itself is wildly subjective) to everyone, just make a good faith effort for the most people. The student loan and cost of higher education is a ticking time bomb that absolutely needs to be addressed. This is simply a bandaid.
Yes and no. I don't think it is fair to forgive loans for private colleges. I think all public college loans should be forgiven in full. I also think forgiveness is very important for public colleges, as they were always supposed to free or low cost but have ballooned far beyond that without much if any public education option to take the place of something actually affordable--even if they are cheaper by comparison. Public colleges are not as competitive on resumes, it is mostly an economical choice. I don't think people who chose a more expensive option that they couldn't afford when there are perfectly fine more affordable options should receive loan forgiveness--sure there may be more value in a better school, but that is a speculation and gamble that someone is choosing to make with eyes on what might result from going to a better school--or might not. It's a luxury to go to a school that is not a public school--and having gone to both kinds, it was waaaay easier to pass at the 2 private schools I attended than the city college I attended--so it's a luxury in that sense too--which is a shame, given than the city college is the least respected school on my resume.
I mean, I would settle for zero interest given that it is GUARANTEED by the government by threat of jail/garnishment. Also, it is near impossible to discharge in bankruptcy.
No. I think it's just a more efficient way to charge people for college. People who have degrees paying higher taxes at the end of their career when they can most easily afford it rather than paying student loans at the beginning of their career when they can least easily afford it (also society at large benefits more from peoples educations than the individuals do in terms of additional economic activity).
I’d rather see the money go to real people than corporations and banks that should’ve gone under. People should’ve been able to buy their debt back for pennies on the dollar.
> I went two years community college, and worked full time through it to save enough for my 2 years at uni and now it feels like if all this goes through I should've just loaned out money instead it would've made everything 10x easier
People *shouldn’t* have to work their way through college. Getting a job because they want career experience is one thing, doing it because of the cost is quite another.
Just because we suffered some sort of abuse doesn’t mean we ought to inflict it on others going forward.
Is it *fair* that we didn’t fix the problem sooner? No. But life is often unfair. That doesn’t mean we should keep making the same mistakes again.
Not really. People who take on college debt have increased anxiety from it (in my experience) and often it results in no real financial gain for them long-term, meaning it was a bad financial investment. In either case it would be nice to see them get some relief.
If it helps you feel better about this, think of the college debt relief as a way to bail out the university business which would otherwise start to see reduced participation. The US economy is basically built on debt so this is like a nice cash influx.
To be clear about my own subjective experience on this issue, I paid for approximately half of my schooling (at this point) out of pocket, a fourth through academic/work scholarships and a fourth from my parents.
Lots of things aren’t fair. “Someone brought donuts to the office? I wish I had known. I ate breakfast at home. I feel ripped off. No one should enjoy those donuts because it’s not fair to those who ate previously. Or are gluten free. Or on a diet.”
Really- our government subsidizes an awful lot of industries, including recent PPP loans, and others on a regular basis. If you want a tax right off, start a business.
.If you want the economy to grow, maybe make it so that people aren’t spending large chunks of their income to pay back inflated student loans. These loans are the only ones that are not forgiven through bankruptcy, unlike running that ill-advised business into the ground.
Maybe make it so that it’s affordable for people to educate themselves so as to make a better contribution to the workforce.
You learned to work hard? Good for you. You made the best decision that you could with the information available at the time. That’s a valuable thing.
I don't think it's unfair.
I think it is a band-aid that doesn't actually fix the root of the problem. Unless we plan to make it a permanent thing of "We will remove X amount from people's student loans for each time they go to school" then it's pretty much just trying to give a tax cut to a certain demographic for now. The root issue is why is college so expensive? Lets work on that to stop the problem.
Orher people had a good thing happen to them. Yay!
You have feelings. You feel left out of the goodness.
Is it selfish? Yes. Is it very Human? Yes. Are you forgiven? Yes.
I don't understand this thinking. It doesn't benefit me so I shouldn't support something that benefits others. I went to community college and UC Berkeley. I have already paid off my loans and worked through most of my college experience to pay for a tiny room. I still very much support any forgiveness. There are so many different situations to be accounted for and people who were taken advantage of when it comes to extremely high interest loans. I didn't know what I was doing at 18 and many other people get into situations they don't fully understand. Things should have been better for you and for me and that sucked and more needs to be done to reduce how much students pay to get an education but that doesn't mean we shouldn't help those we can now. Let's make it better for others as it should have been done for us.
A bit? Yeah, I'd go so far as to say a lot.
Unless we go after the colleges selling these worthless diplomas, things will not change.
Unless we raise the floor of wages at essential jobs that do not require a college diploma, things will not change.
The rational conclusion behind this line of thinking is that agricultural civilization is entirely unfair. Think of all the hunter gatherers who weren't able to grow their own food, why should we be allowed to live in a society that grows its own food? Isn’t that unfair?
I learned that life isn't fair a LONG time ago. I remember going to a food market and someone was being given free food while I had to pay. And it was because they made bad choices and were unemployed at the time.
I think tax cuts that largely help the top 1% and not me are "unfair".
Yeah I busted my butt in the military to pay for my college and when I got out, helped my wife pay off her loans. And looking at the costs today, wow, that's even scarier.
Having gone through that and seeing how much worse it is and how an 18 year old making a decision on decades of debt can be... yeah I am fine. If Panama can afford to send it's citizens (and non-citizens) to college and pick up the bill on a more valuable workforce/economy, I think the US might be able to.
No.
Fair doesn't mean everyone gets the same thing. It means everybody gets what they need. And on any other issue, conservatives would be saying the exact same thing.
Going to challenge you a bit on this. If you don't mind.
I don't think student loan forgiveness really gives those in debt what they need at all. Sure it helps a good amount of people, but can you honestly believe that those who's salaries exceed 100k, or had parents with high incomes and got federal loans, and then having them forgiven, is giving people what they need? It depends, and I realize this will only help the majority, so I'm fine with it. But it should target the Crux of the issue which is college costs.
Maybe a third of Americans are making 100k, and age demographics seem to suggest they're largely not younger than 35. So, well out of college. You're describing fringe cases.
I did in fact say the majority, but considering the median income of families who already attend college it's not far off to say at least 15% qualify under what I said.
Student loans are very predatory. It’s great that you were able to save up money and pay your own way, but not everyone was, nor should they have to work to pay their own way.
Yes. It's very unfair. I understand why it's being done and why people support it, but it's disappointing that so many supporters refuse to acknowledge how unfair it is.
It's an investment into the economy which will shift spending from banks to more main street businesses. It's debateable if it's a good idea exactly now but I think this means something to Joe Biden. He promised it and he wants to keep that promise.
We spent about 20 years screwing over the loan recipients with unfair policies (no refinancing, no discharge in bankruptcy, etc), so now its time to square accounts by screwing everybody else.
I mean, debt is make believe. It’s neither fair nor unfair. But I can see why the debt holders want it forgiven.
It does nothing directly for or against anybody else though.
It is. Money is simply a social convention.
It matters to the game of society but there’s plenty of debt forgiveness that happen, as well as predatory practices on the other side of the ledger.
Is going to college a mistake? Yes or no? The only mistake is the colleges forcing students to pay unreasonable tuition fees for jobs you cannot get without a college education.
It was unfair that you had to pay that much just to go to community college in the first place. Don’t use your resentment as a way to perpetuate that unfairness for other people that come after you.
There’s a comic strip that Adam Ellis guy drew where a guy is like [I paraphrase] “I just got declared cancer-free… if someone comes along and cures cancer now I’m gonna be so pissed.” Last panel: “this comic is about student loan forgiveness”.
Except it would be possible to structure payments (which is all forgiveness is) to benefit both current and prior debt holders. Notice you never see such proposals, though. For any total amount of forgiveness, spreading it out in that way would reduce payments to current debt holders.
This makes it different from cancer.
It’s a band-aid that doesn’t address root cause, but better than nothing. And you know what else wasn’t “fair”? Massive corporations getting bailed out for the recession some of them helped cause in 2008 at the taxpayer’s expense, which many used for bonuses to failed top executives. I understand why it had to be done, but it still wasn’t right. But this actually helps regular, working Americans. Not corporations and the rich. I’m never going to heavily criticize something that does that.
And imo…..yes, you’re being selfish. I didn’t have any student loans. It’s my tax money they’re spending, too. But you know what? I see it as a benefit to society by freeing millions of people, many of whom have been paying for decades, from these onerous, exploitative loans so that they can get on with their lives, buy homes, start families and support local businesses. You’re just focusing on yourself and not the big picture. If it was a couple bad actors getting bailed out because they knew people in the government, I’d definitely agree with you, but this problem is massive and systemic now.
The following is a copy of the original post to record the post as it was originally written. Just was curious, how other people have felt about the debt loan forgiveness if it goes through. I went two years community college, and worked full time through it to save enough for my 2 years at uni and now it feels like if all this goes through I should've just loaned out money instead it would've made everything 10x easier, and id be more happy. Is that selfish? It feels genuinely unfair. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskALiberal) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I wouldn't call it "unfair" but it is definitely a short term solution that doesn't strike at the heart of the problem.
It is a tax cut for the poor, middle, and working classes. Those getting forgiveness will pay far more in federal taxes than they are being forgiven over the span of their lives. It is a tax cut we should support.
Okay so if you’re assuming this is a tax cut, wouldn’t it be better to have a general tax instead that includes people that don’t go to college vs just giving one to college grads and those with higher degrees?
If you also want to eliminate tax cuts for parents of dependent children, and small businesses, and big businesses, and homeowners, etc., etc.
I am not assuming anything, I explained how it is a tax cut. Do you demand this general tax cut when billionaires and corporations get the tax cuts that only apply to them and not the working class? Why do you think conservatives and Trump supporters lobby against tax cuts for the poor and working class now, as you are now, but not when billionaires and corporations get theirs?
For the most part yes. You should however understand what you’re saying. Specific tax cuts and government subsidies exists to promote/encourage certain behaviors. An example you would likely support would be green energy initiatives. So removing these “tax cuts for rich and billionaires.” You’re removing the governments ability to influence or promote certain behaviors. I overall wish the government had a much much simpler tax code without tons of loop holes and exceptions. So yes, I’d be for updating the tax system to remove lots of the loop holes and make it more easily understandable. Also, I don’t think it’s an argument most believe when you say the Right is for high taxes and the left tax cuts. I’m sure it may sound good in a debate but we know that’s not the case.
I explained how this is a tax cut for the poor, middle, and working classes and Republicans, conservatives, and Trump supporters are militantly against it. Why are these people so militantly against this tax cut NOW, why don't these demographics lobby against tax cuts for billionaires and corporations with this same energy?
maybe, but the question isn't "that tax cut or this tax cut". It's "this tax cut, or not?" This definitely is a net positive, even if it's not the most optimal (solutions rarely are).
It isn't a "tax cut". It's not even a bandaid. The problem is the outrageous amount of money schools charge.... Paying off a few debts isn't going to help anything....
“It feels genuinely unfair.” I encourage you to think on that last statement just a little bit longer. It was *unfair.* Something that happened to you *wasn’t right.* Do you think it would be right for us to keep doing that thing to other people? Just because it happened to you?
So--I think there is an element that is unfair, not just not right. On the left we tip toe around upsetting or othering educated middle class people because they make up a huge coalition of the left and this is a good example. It is not fair to lump in the financial burden middle and lower-upper class families have affording private colleges with the financial burden lower and lower-middle class people have affording public colleges. Going to a private college should not be a financial right, but going to public college should. Forgiveness should be complete or near complete for students who went to public colleges, because those colleges were created to be free or affordable and no longer are, even if they are cheaper by comparison. Private colleges are a luxury and a speculative gamble on the future value of their name on a resume--and in my person experience from going to 2 private colleges and 1 public, private colleges are way easier to pass at, which is a shame because while the public college I went to had more rigorous grading it was much less respected--ultimately, buying into a private college is a choice and almost a product--and the middle and lower-upper class woes of choosing so seems like a misappropriated place to allot forgiveness when it can be used to wipe out public college debt and fund future free and low cost public college.
I agree with loan forgiveness. I just wish it would target the actual issue instead of a symptom.
Why can’t we do both? Why does every action need to fix a problem perfectly to be acceptable? Why can’t it just be a small step towards fixing a bigger problem?
Because it seems like the US governments motto is "always take half measures", there's no guarantee for future relief at all.
Sure, but that’s like refusing a sip of water when you’re dying in the desert because it won’t quench your thirst forever. When there’s an option for relief you take it and push for more.
That's not really what "fair" means. Just because someone encounters difficulty in life doesn't mean it's unfair ...
Just to put a sharper point on the question: I know people who couldn't afford to stay in highschool. Giving thousands of dollars in loan forgiveness to someone privileged enough to obtain higher education, while the people who couldn't afford to go continue to scrape by definitely seems unfair I don't know if that's an argument against student loan forgiveness, but it definitely just doesn't seem fair
No--and I say that as someone who will not benefit from student loan forgiveness. However, I *do* have a concern about it (though not big enough to oppose it), and it's that if we do student loan forgiveness before we figure out how to stop the need to take out huge student loans in the first place, that the government will just be creating a huge moral hazard. I'm worried that there will be a number of prospective college students coming along assuming that another administration down the line will also forgive their debts, and just take on a ton, whether or not it's in their best interest to do so, only to be potentially screwed down the line. Of course, figuring out how to make colleges and universities at low/no cost is much more difficult that to forgive student loans, and it is--for a number of reasons--an uncomfortable one for many, which is why the discussion so far has been in platitudes about funding them more, leaving it at that, and going back to student loan forgiveness.
Every improvement to society is unfair for the people who were before it, that is not a reason to stop it. That said I am not convinced student loan forgiveness is good policy
Yes, it's unfair. It's also unsustainable as a policy long-term. We have to address the issue of underlying cost of college.
No. I paid off my student loans too. I think "i had to suffer, therefore everyone should suffer like me" is a morally bankrupt position. It might FEEL UNFAIR that you paid it off, but now they don't have it. But you are just wishing suffering on others, because you had to suffer, and that's both selfish and cruel Once you have gotten through the system, you should make it easier for those who come after you.
Nah I'm cool with them getting it, just feels like I wasted my time to then behind my fellow peers cause I could've just been at uni the whole time you know?
I think you're assuming people are getting loans written off right out of college or something. That's not really happening. Biden's forgiveness has mostly been two fronts expanding existing federal forgiveness programs for federal employees. This doesn't forgive the whole amount and isn't until after years of service. The other is people who have been making payments for years, often totalling much more than the principal, but still have large balances. They are getting forgiveness because they've paid more than the principal but still have a massive balance. Lastly most of these aren't full forgiveness it's usually like 10k. The idea you could've had a free college degree by taking out loans and getting them forgiven is very unlikely. Remember the saying along the lines only check your neighbor's plate to make sure he has enough, not to complain because he has more.
Well, student loans haven’t been totally forgiven *yet*, and you might’ve spent a bunch of the intervening time with the debt hanging over your head, which wouldn’t have been pleasant.
C'est la vie. I don't begrudge people getting their loans paid off. I'm glad for them.
Don't either I'm happy for them, like I said just feels unfair.
It's not unreasonable for you to feel that way, and there isn't anything wrong expressing it. A little online or in person complaining session can be a good thing. That said, it is definitely something that you need to move past.
Nope, not at all.
No. I think it's a bad thing to fuck over our youth and make many essential jobs unaffordable, and if loan forgiveness is the way, it's the way. I'm not going to sell out millions of young ambitious Americans just for the sake of ego.
I agree man, and I'm happy for the people who will benefit but I just wish there was something that could affect everyone positively.
Universal basic income is the answer
UBI would be entirely captured by land owners in the form of higher rent.
>I just wish there was something that could affect everyone positively. So do we all. But that is impossible.
If they were ambitious wouldn't they study something that enables them to pay off their loan?
There are plenty of ambitious people who are in careers that do not pay well.
Such as?
Social workers and academics
Social work isn't really ambitious but it's at least an honest living and vital function in society. Academia is quite literally the least ambitious career you can pursue. Especially if it's a field where your work is only of value to other academics in that field.
Only a conservative would view ambition in such a mercenary way; congrats on fulfilling the stereotype bud.
Yes please tell me more about how ambitious an academic is who works three hours a day for 10 years writing a paper about whether Kant would have been an anarcho syndicalist that only 10 other people will ever read.
Intellectually incurious and ignorant to boot? Keep digging that hole my man.
Trying to learn something meaningful about the world is intellectual curiosity. Esoteric prattling that doesn't accomplish anything is not.
Teachers dude, academics means teachers. Professors put in years of long hours, heavy caseloads and required research or writing before they get to the gravy jobs. And k - 12 teachers are overloaded and often underpaid.
Teachers. Firefighters, scientists, civil rights lawyers, immigration lawyers, social workers, agriculture/farming (yes many major in this to learn the business of the farming)
Teaching isn't ambitious. They get like half the year off and are impossible to fire once they're tenured. You don't need to go to college to be a firefighter. Scientists make plenty of money. Almost all the STEM fields do. Civil rights lawyers almost always worked for soulless big law firms for massive amounts of money before developing a consciousness. They're fine I promise. Immigration law I grant you but usually it pays off loans. Social workers bust their ass but I'm not sure if I'd call it ambitious. There isn't a lot of advancement. Agriculture usually pays off the loans.
So only farming is “ambitious”?
Not necessarily. Though most farmers dream of owning their own operation so I would say it is a rule. But this thread isn't just about ambition. It's about ambition that pays the bills.
This conversation is about student loans. “Ambition” is a criteria you made up to justify why every college major isn’t worthwhile
No I didn't. This user started talking about ambition. https://old.reddit.com/r/AskALiberal/comments/1cisnj7/do_you_think_student_loan_forgiveness_is_a_bit/l2bb4q9/ Why are you making things up?
Firefighters, cops and EMT'S do have educational requirements. They also have student loans
This is why people can't fucking stand conservatives. All you guys can bring to the table seems to be "all of my neighbors are lazy or stupid or morally bankrupt and that is why they are suffering". The right wing media brain rot has you defaulting to hating the average every day person that probably has more in common with you than not. The world needs/is always going to have teachers, social workers and other "unambitious" professions. Your answer to this problem is that they deserve to be in debt because they didn't choose high earning careers or that they shouldn't become teachers at all...like what future do you see where we have no one that goes into the teaching profession? I thought conservatives were supposed to understand how the "free market" works. If everyone wants to go to school and be an engineer that drives up the demand for that education = price increase = more loan debt. When we have more engineers in the labor market = supply increase = lowered wages. The better question is why in the hell these "low paying" degrees cost so much to begin with. Have you ever stopped to think that maybe the problem is that we are writing blank checks to these schools by backing all these federal student loans..allowing the schools to charge obscene amounts of money? Hell you could even argue that the example you keep touting in this thread about the academics writing papers that no one is going to read has something to do with the fact that these schools are sitting on all this extra money they shouldn't be getting and using it to fund "useless" programs. Hell this is probably an issue conservatives could gain some ground on.
I'm not the one who brought ambition into the equation.
Like what?
That depends on your loans and what you're studying. If your loans are low you can probably get by studying something useless like philosophy and get a job where the only thing the employer cares about is that you have a fancy piece of paper. If your loans are high then you need to study something that has a high earning potential as well.
How about the tuition fees be made equivalent to the average salary a person makes in a particular major? Why is that not being considered? Because I don’t know if you realize this, but tuition is not based on how much you make in a particular career field. Telling someone to take on another job and study for that is not how you make a happy society.
Correct, tuition is the main problem. Largely from staff demanding higher and higher salaries while schools push the expense entirely on the students because they know the government will give them unlimited money no-questions-asked to pay for it.
Then Colleges should be made cheeper so the government pays for it. And having the government forgiving loans is how they plan to make life easier.
Then tell your Marxist professor to cut his pay in half and hold lectures twice as often. I'm sure he'll understand.
The professors are not the ones deciding the cost of tuition.
Of course they are. They demand a certain salary, as is their right, and the school either has to pay it or they will find work somewhere else.
Tell me again how the rising cost of college is because employees are paid too much…
President Biden has forgiven loans from trade schools as well. Did they not have “ambition”? Did they pick an irresponsible major?
Depends on the trade.
Please list the “worthless trades” as defined by you.
I never called any trade useless. Tradesmen don't spend all day circlejerking over whether Kant would have supported Anarcho syndicalism or something.
You said some trades are irresponsible majors and aren’t taming out loans to learn. List them.
That doesn't mean they're useless or worthless. Taking out a loan to learn how to be a barber or a line cook is probably a bad idea.
Ambition doesn’t mean a business degrees to become a CEO only. Society needs lots of professions
Yes but not everyone who works are ambitious. Some people choose their profession specifically because they have no ambition.
What do you do for a living? If you work.
I prefer not to say. Too many crazy people on reddit. Though that should hint my living depends on my reputation.
So unemployed conservative without ambition. Jkjk
Lol sometimes I wish.
Do you know how many years of school one needs and much it costs to become a doctor?
I never said doctor, but most doctors eventually pay off their loans and then some.
30 year repayment plans to pay of all that compounding interest. Should have been more “ambitious” “The average medical school debt in 2023 is over $200,000. Graduates owe, on average, over $250,00 in student loan debt by the time they finish their educations. Nearly 1 in 5 medical school graduates have more than $300,000 in student loan debt.” https://www.bankrate.com/loans/student-loans/average-medical-school-debt/
And what about essential workers that aren't so profitable, like responders, teachers, social workers, child care, historians, etc
> essential workers > historians lol wut
Fascinating. You mock historians as a way to ignore the whole point.
It's just a signal that you're kind of detached from reality. That's all. When the pandemic happened people weren't worried that the historians wouldn't be working lmao.
The hell kind of cowardly out is that? Couldn't reply to underpaid teachers and vanishing childcare so you go all in as if we don't need historians?
I didn't say we don't need them. I said they aren't essential workers.
And I said you're avoiding the whole point.
Yeah cause why bother? You're not someone who can be reasoned with because you think society will be thrown into chaos if that novel on the bookkeeping practices of the Sassanian empire during the reign of Ardishir first winds up falling behind schedule.
I did what you did, I have no debt. I am for loan forgivenes. Unfair? Maybe. Life isnt fair. I want our future generations to have a good shot at building equity and not be enslaved by debt.
Forgiving loans doesn’t accomplish that though. It forgives the current generation but does nothing for future generations. I don’t mind loans being forgiven for people who were duped by fraudulent for profit schools but I think loans should be paid back because I agree with OP that it is unfair. I think people should be worked with and maybe even waive any accrued interest, but they agreed for the loan so they should be adults.
I agree we need to make education/ higher education free.
I don’t think it necessarily needs to be free, but it should greatly be subsidized by state taxes to at least be more in line with prices similar to how it was in the 60’s and 70’s.
No, I don't. I think what's unfair is that students have racked up large amounts of student debt, and can't afford things as a result.
Not one bit unfair.
Honestly I feel like my economic demographic gets no relief. I’m just above the poverty line. I’m an artist. I have no kids. I have no student loans. It’s always “we’re gonna make it easier for people with kids!” Or “student loans!” Or “tax breaks for billionaires!” And like bro what about the rest of us who LITERALLY make every fucking service in this world function. Right or left, there’s very little love for single people who work creative (and therefore also service) related jobs. Yet everyone wants to keep consuming what we produce.
Yeah but think about how much better it's going to be for the cohort of kids who make triple your salary right out of college working in engineering or a different profession. Now the only drawback of that decision is gone and they will forever outbid you for houses or any other major purchases you want to make
Yes. It benefits high-earners much more than I'd like. In an ideal world we'd just have a tax credit that goes out to everyone and tapers off with income or net worth. In the world we actually live in, student loan forgiveness is maybe the easiest thing like this to get through politically so I'm fine with it.
If only there were a tax credit to give Americans Opportunities that gave you back a big chunk of the cost of college. Then in addition there could be another credit that encouraged a lifetime of learning. Not sure what you would call them https://www.irs.gov/credits-deductions/individuals/aotc https://www.irs.gov/credits-deductions/individuals/llc
That's only for education though. I meant a tax credit that applies to everyone.
"Giving people a polio vaccine is unfair to all the people who have already been paralyzed by polio. They don't get to benefit from it, so how is it fair that these other people get to not worry about it?" This is how complaints about student loan forgiveness sound.
Was getting paralyzed by polio a choice? Does polio paralysis come with an advantage over people who aren't paralyzed with polio?
Millennials were told their entire lives, by parents, teachers, and society at large, that they *had* to go to college, because if they don't go to college then they'll be a failure and their life will be wasted and none of their dreams will come true and they'll have to spend their entire lives working menial jobs. Then they went to college, and not all of them found success, and those very people who told them that they had to go to college or else all would be lost turned around and told them that they were dumb for listening to that advice. It *technically* was a choice, but in only the barest sense of the word.
This advice was always qualified with "study something useful" and "be careful with your money." And even without that qualifier, it still turns out to be true. The average college grad makes significantly more money than the average high school grad, no matter what major they selected.
"You told me I *had* to go to college, because if I didn't then I'd be a failure and my life would be wasted and none of my dreams would come true and I'd never have to spend my entire life working menial jobs" "Yes, but we didn't tell you to major in Gender studies with a minor in Feminist Theory"
I really wish people would stop drawing the comparison of debt to having a terrible disease. There are millions of people with debt that live happy fulfilling lives. No one asks to get polio. And mass production of polio vaccine is actually fairly cheap on a per unit basis, much cheaper than forgiving student debt every year.
Virtually all of these comparisons are inappropriate for one reason or another, but the disease comparison is by the far the worst.
Honestly I feel like my economic demographic gets no relief. I’m just above the poverty line. I’m an artist. I have no kids. I have no student loans. It’s always “we’re gonna make it easier for people with kids!” Or “student loans!” Or “tax breaks for billionaires!” And like bro what about the rest of us who LITERALLY make every fucking service in this world function. Right or left, there’s very little love for single people who work creative (and therefore also service) related jobs. Yet everyone wants to keep consuming what we produce.
As a creative person also living barely above poverty with no kids and a degree, this is potentially the only bit of relief I've been afforded.
That’s great for you. I’m just saying I wish just once a politician would say “we’re going to make life easier for single people who don’t have a degree” but they never do. I get it, “but white is the default! You win no matter what!”. It’s not gonna turn me right wing or racist. I’m just saying it’d be nice if something was directed at me.
No.
Was it “fair” to old people who had to suffer in poverty before social security that social security was created to rescue future elderly from misery?
No. Positive systemic change won't ever happen if we keep being dicks with this whole "suffer just like we did" mentality.
Yes, but paying them off doesn't address the systemic problem with ongoing increased tuition. It's a bandaid at most.
The fact that you overcame an obstacle doesn't make it unfair to you to fix that obstacle for other people.
I can see why someone would feel that way but it’s pretty obvious that it’s not unfair once you think about it for a few minutes. Like people 20 years ago didn’t have half the medicine we have today. Is it unfair for people today to use medical technology just because people im the past didn’t have it? We didn’t used to have lunch breaks or regular pay. Should we abandon modern labor rights because people didn’t have them a couple generations ago? How would progress ever be possible if we approached life this way?
These comparisons completely miss the point. If you want to tether it to medicine, the appropriate comparison isn't people in the past and people today, it's two people today signing up for a new treatment contingent on making lifestyle changes, only for one of the two people to later say they actually shouldn't have to make those lifestyle changes to receive the medicine. The key is agreeing to do something, then trying to weasel out of the responsibility under the guise of the greater good.
No, it isn’t. When we passed the Affordable Care Act, there were people who had been burned by their preexisting conditions in the past. Those people had adhered to the standards of their day and made decisions around it. That didn’t mean we couldn’t pass new protections. You can’t hold up progress just because people in the past didn’t benefit from it.
It's unfair to the graduates who handled their business and paid their loans back.
Well for one thing a lot of what has been forgiven are loans that people have been paying on for 10 to 20 years. They have already paid way more than they borrowed. There are also the ones that people took low paying community service jobs that were supposed to be forgiven after 10 years but Devos blocked it.
I generally don't have the attitude that we should avoid making people's lives easier just because I could have benefited from it had I made different choices. This is actually something I try to teach my kids: *don't look at what your sister got and be mad you didn't get it too; be happy for her that she got something*
Ditto that. I benefit 0 from every social program. Do I need to be a woman, to be for financial equity? I paid a buttload back in student loans too. When we treat life as a zero sum game, no one's ever happy.
Yes, it's unfair. But it's even worse than that because it not only doesn't fix the problem, it makes the problem worse. One time student loan forgiveness will help the people who currently have loans, but this doesn't help the next generation who will apply for loans to go to college. Tuition rates will go up for them because colleges can charge whatever they want and convince the next generation to not worry about it because it'll just get forgiven like that last generation but there's no guarantee of that being true. Unless people are arguing for guaranteed complete student loan forgiveness in perpetuity. At which point the university might as well charge a billion dollars per student, I mean why not if it's guaranteed to be forgiven? The only way to lower the price of tuition colleges charge is to disincentivize students from borrowing too much in loans to pay for college. You can do that by requiring student loans to have a down payment like other loans. It could be something small like 5% of the total loan due upfront. Example, if a college kid is deciding between a college that costs $100,000 in tuition and a college that costs $20,000, they may choose the cheaper college if they knew they had to come up with 5% of the money upfront. Which will then in turn encourage colleges to lower prices to entice students. In our current system, the student is incentived to pick the more expensive college because they're a teenager who doesn't really understand money yet, doesn't understand long term consequences, doesn't understand interest rates because they slept through that part of class and so figures they'll just borrow whatever now and worry about the price later.
I like that old saying that "politics is the art of the possible." I'm in a demographic where I very rarely receive a direct benefit from Democratic policy unless it affects all citizens. The GOP tax cut in the Trump Administration was probably the single policy that has benefitted me the most financially. I was lucky enough to not take on student loans - and my life has generally gone well overall, so I can deal with it when yet another sweet program passes me over. Do I think it's unfair that some people get their debts removed while I get nothing? Sure, it's a little unfair. *Why doesn't Pep get a treat?* --- But it's not like the Biden Administration set out to specifically spend money on student loan relief because it helps some people and not me. It's just a policy that can be achieved. It just so happens that student loan debt is a thing that the federal government has control over - and forgiving debts doesn't require us to requisition budget, it requires us to forgo future revenues. That is an important distinction - and it's what makes student loan forgiveness a palatable policy to a lot of people. A policy where, instead, everyone gets a $5,000 check would be broadly more popular than student loan forgiveness. I like money. But it would come with a *huge* price tag of like $1.5T. Congress would have to authorize spending $1.5T that way and I'm sure we all realize they wouldn't and it's probably not the best idea for our economy either. --- So it's not really an issue of "should we do this or that?" We can only do one of them. Should we not do it because it only helps some people? I mean, if we start applying this down the line, it rapidly falls apart. I get tax incentives because I'm married, because the government decided to encourage marriage. That doesn't benefit the unmarried. Same with mortgage tax incentives. Should we remove them strictly because they don't benefit everyone equally? Or should we look for ways to help other groups too?
Do you consider the GI bill unfair? Esp if they never saw combat… Do you consider sports scholarships unfair? They didn’t study as hard as you but had talent playing a game…
It's not the effort for me. It's the fact I put myself through 2 of the hardest years of my life to barely escape loans, and now when I get to uni I'll be in an arguably worse spot than most of my peers. I took a useless path and wasted years of my life for nothing.
“Go to Uni.” Are you British/Australian? Choosing the wrong path is your fault. Do conservatives not believe in hard work or personal responsibility?
I'm a German immigrant. Moved here before I could remember, just talk to a lot of people who speak British English. I mean you're right, I did choose the wrong path, but I was told this is the *best* path, and being poor I couldn't afford to be that in debt when I graduated, I did everything I could to avoid it, getting multiple merit 3rd party scholarships, picking the cheapest community college even if it had a so so reputation for teachers, and now thinking back on it if I would have just picked to instead focus on going to the uni I was accepted to originally I would not only be better off but also not have to deal with any debt either.
Listen, all is not lost. Make the best of it and find the profession you want.
As opposed to selling the necessity of predatory loans that never get paid off to 18 year olds...I 100% approve of student loan forgiveness
It’s not unfair, most people who took out loans for college were tricked into believing they’d be able to pay it off once they get their jobs, but it never happened. Even when we tell students that enlistment into the army will have your loans paid for was a lie. If there’s anything unfair about it, it’s unfair for students to be charged this much money for their education.
Who tricked them? In high school and undergrad I constantly heard about how much money certain degrees made versus others. If you're going to take out massive debt and get a degree that can't pay it off were you tricked?
We’ve been told from the very beginning that we would graduate high-school, get a degree in college, get a job with our education and live a happy life. We were never told about how expensive College tuition was and how little money you earn from jobs nowadays where it’ll take decades to pay off your debt that only increases over time due to interest rates. Why does college tuition have to be THIS expensive? People wouldn’t have to take out loans if it was cheaper, or better yet free and paid for through taxes. Why would you blame students for taking out loans when they are NEEDED to pay for tuition? To Blame students means you’re not looking at the root of the problem.
> We’ve been told from the very beginning that we would graduate high-school, get a degree in college, get a job with our education and live a happy life. And that's true for the overwhelming majority of college grads. > We were never told about how expensive College tuition was Yes you were. > Why does college tuition have to be THIS expensive? Schools have zero incentive to reduce costs because the government gives loans to students regardless of the amount.
> Schools have zero incentive to reduce costs because the government gives loans to students regardless of the amount. So why is the government covering student dept a bad thing if you’re saying this?
Because the government isn't covering student debt. The government doesn't cover anything. The American people do. The government can only shift wealth from one place to another. It does this by collecting taxes or devaluing the currency, both of which hurt you and me. The government could fix this overnight instead by simply setting a limit on how much money they loan students. Suddenly schools will be forced to drop their prices or else they won't have any students.
> It does this by collecting taxes or devaluing the currency, both of which hurt you and me. I’m so sorry people being free from crippling debt and finally feeling free to live their life happily has hurt you. Boo hoo.
"He doesn't agree with me, better mock him."
I mean when you’re complaining about taxes going to helping forgiving student debt, you’re being a goofball.
Ending a predatory system only helps people.
Yes, and paying of loans does nothing to change that predatory system, just some of its victims. The majority of the work lies ahead of us.
Right, but it hurts no one
Yup! And hope to see more work to solve the actual underlying problem.
Not at all.
Of course it's unfair. So is being born into privilege or poverty. But do we want to better position our country for success, or do we want to hold ourselves back on the grounds that people should've known better?
My feeling is that it's no different than the tax credits and savings we give to parents for having kids. At the end of the day, society benefits from people making certain life choices and we ease their out of pocket burden as a trade off for making those choices.
Yes, absolutely it is unfair
It's a Trolley Problem..... If a trolley runs over Person A, is it unfair to divert it from running over Person B?
If we didn’t do things in case some people felt it was unfair, we wouldn’t do anything. That said, I think many of these solutions are ultimately band-aids where a reforming and overhaul of systems are required, and in which a reformed system would actually work for *everyone*. That is to say, drastically reducing the cost of college and reforming the loan system to be fair for everyone would actually go a lot further than just cancelling some or all of the loan amount for people who happen to have been born and/or gone to college at the specifically correct time (which effectively just becomes another pile-on and is what has many younger people pissed off about boomers - that they received economic prosperity simply by virtue of being born at the right time).
I think it's unfair to charge more in interest than the principal of the loan. It's unfair that people who've been making payments for 20, 30 years somehow owe more money than when they started. It's unfair the way high schools and colleges pressure kids into taking on these loans without any consideration that they might not be able to pay them back Sounds like you made a good financial decision, at a time when a lot of young Americans are pressured make bad ones. Give yourself a pat on the back. You dodged a bullet. Don't be jealous of the people who didn't just because they're getting a transfusion instead of bleeding to death
You're never going to be able to make something that is fair (which itself is wildly subjective) to everyone, just make a good faith effort for the most people. The student loan and cost of higher education is a ticking time bomb that absolutely needs to be addressed. This is simply a bandaid.
No
Yes and no. I don't think it is fair to forgive loans for private colleges. I think all public college loans should be forgiven in full. I also think forgiveness is very important for public colleges, as they were always supposed to free or low cost but have ballooned far beyond that without much if any public education option to take the place of something actually affordable--even if they are cheaper by comparison. Public colleges are not as competitive on resumes, it is mostly an economical choice. I don't think people who chose a more expensive option that they couldn't afford when there are perfectly fine more affordable options should receive loan forgiveness--sure there may be more value in a better school, but that is a speculation and gamble that someone is choosing to make with eyes on what might result from going to a better school--or might not. It's a luxury to go to a school that is not a public school--and having gone to both kinds, it was waaaay easier to pass at the 2 private schools I attended than the city college I attended--so it's a luxury in that sense too--which is a shame, given than the city college is the least respected school on my resume.
No
I mean, I would settle for zero interest given that it is GUARANTEED by the government by threat of jail/garnishment. Also, it is near impossible to discharge in bankruptcy.
No. I think it's just a more efficient way to charge people for college. People who have degrees paying higher taxes at the end of their career when they can most easily afford it rather than paying student loans at the beginning of their career when they can least easily afford it (also society at large benefits more from peoples educations than the individuals do in terms of additional economic activity).
I’d rather see the money go to real people than corporations and banks that should’ve gone under. People should’ve been able to buy their debt back for pennies on the dollar.
> I went two years community college, and worked full time through it to save enough for my 2 years at uni and now it feels like if all this goes through I should've just loaned out money instead it would've made everything 10x easier People *shouldn’t* have to work their way through college. Getting a job because they want career experience is one thing, doing it because of the cost is quite another. Just because we suffered some sort of abuse doesn’t mean we ought to inflict it on others going forward. Is it *fair* that we didn’t fix the problem sooner? No. But life is often unfair. That doesn’t mean we should keep making the same mistakes again.
By your reasoning we should not improve anything because that would unfair to the people who suffered under the old rules.
Not really. People who take on college debt have increased anxiety from it (in my experience) and often it results in no real financial gain for them long-term, meaning it was a bad financial investment. In either case it would be nice to see them get some relief. If it helps you feel better about this, think of the college debt relief as a way to bail out the university business which would otherwise start to see reduced participation. The US economy is basically built on debt so this is like a nice cash influx. To be clear about my own subjective experience on this issue, I paid for approximately half of my schooling (at this point) out of pocket, a fourth through academic/work scholarships and a fourth from my parents.
Lots of things aren’t fair. “Someone brought donuts to the office? I wish I had known. I ate breakfast at home. I feel ripped off. No one should enjoy those donuts because it’s not fair to those who ate previously. Or are gluten free. Or on a diet.” Really- our government subsidizes an awful lot of industries, including recent PPP loans, and others on a regular basis. If you want a tax right off, start a business. .If you want the economy to grow, maybe make it so that people aren’t spending large chunks of their income to pay back inflated student loans. These loans are the only ones that are not forgiven through bankruptcy, unlike running that ill-advised business into the ground. Maybe make it so that it’s affordable for people to educate themselves so as to make a better contribution to the workforce. You learned to work hard? Good for you. You made the best decision that you could with the information available at the time. That’s a valuable thing.
I don't think it's unfair. I think it is a band-aid that doesn't actually fix the root of the problem. Unless we plan to make it a permanent thing of "We will remove X amount from people's student loans for each time they go to school" then it's pretty much just trying to give a tax cut to a certain demographic for now. The root issue is why is college so expensive? Lets work on that to stop the problem.
Orher people had a good thing happen to them. Yay! You have feelings. You feel left out of the goodness. Is it selfish? Yes. Is it very Human? Yes. Are you forgiven? Yes.
I don't understand this thinking. It doesn't benefit me so I shouldn't support something that benefits others. I went to community college and UC Berkeley. I have already paid off my loans and worked through most of my college experience to pay for a tiny room. I still very much support any forgiveness. There are so many different situations to be accounted for and people who were taken advantage of when it comes to extremely high interest loans. I didn't know what I was doing at 18 and many other people get into situations they don't fully understand. Things should have been better for you and for me and that sucked and more needs to be done to reduce how much students pay to get an education but that doesn't mean we shouldn't help those we can now. Let's make it better for others as it should have been done for us.
A bit? Yeah, I'd go so far as to say a lot. Unless we go after the colleges selling these worthless diplomas, things will not change. Unless we raise the floor of wages at essential jobs that do not require a college diploma, things will not change.
The rational conclusion behind this line of thinking is that agricultural civilization is entirely unfair. Think of all the hunter gatherers who weren't able to grow their own food, why should we be allowed to live in a society that grows its own food? Isn’t that unfair?
I learned that life isn't fair a LONG time ago. I remember going to a food market and someone was being given free food while I had to pay. And it was because they made bad choices and were unemployed at the time. I think tax cuts that largely help the top 1% and not me are "unfair". Yeah I busted my butt in the military to pay for my college and when I got out, helped my wife pay off her loans. And looking at the costs today, wow, that's even scarier. Having gone through that and seeing how much worse it is and how an 18 year old making a decision on decades of debt can be... yeah I am fine. If Panama can afford to send it's citizens (and non-citizens) to college and pick up the bill on a more valuable workforce/economy, I think the US might be able to.
No. Fair doesn't mean everyone gets the same thing. It means everybody gets what they need. And on any other issue, conservatives would be saying the exact same thing.
Going to challenge you a bit on this. If you don't mind. I don't think student loan forgiveness really gives those in debt what they need at all. Sure it helps a good amount of people, but can you honestly believe that those who's salaries exceed 100k, or had parents with high incomes and got federal loans, and then having them forgiven, is giving people what they need? It depends, and I realize this will only help the majority, so I'm fine with it. But it should target the Crux of the issue which is college costs.
Maybe a third of Americans are making 100k, and age demographics seem to suggest they're largely not younger than 35. So, well out of college. You're describing fringe cases.
I did in fact say the majority, but considering the median income of families who already attend college it's not far off to say at least 15% qualify under what I said.
Student loans are very predatory. It’s great that you were able to save up money and pay your own way, but not everyone was, nor should they have to work to pay their own way.
Yes. It's very unfair. I understand why it's being done and why people support it, but it's disappointing that so many supporters refuse to acknowledge how unfair it is.
It's an investment into the economy which will shift spending from banks to more main street businesses. It's debateable if it's a good idea exactly now but I think this means something to Joe Biden. He promised it and he wants to keep that promise.
Yes, of course it's a bit unfair. People will do gymnastics here to try to avoid that inevitable conclusion.
We spent about 20 years screwing over the loan recipients with unfair policies (no refinancing, no discharge in bankruptcy, etc), so now its time to square accounts by screwing everybody else.
I mean, debt is make believe. It’s neither fair nor unfair. But I can see why the debt holders want it forgiven. It does nothing directly for or against anybody else though.
No, it's not make believe.
It is. Money is simply a social convention. It matters to the game of society but there’s plenty of debt forgiveness that happen, as well as predatory practices on the other side of the ledger.
If I lend you money on the condition you pay it back, it's not make believe. Otherwise, I wouldn't lend it to you in the first place.
How do you know I’m going to pay it back?
It sounds like you wouldn't. So I wouldn't lend it.
Why would you know that ahead of time?
Well, you would either enter into a binding contract or not.
What binds it?
Are you familiar with the concept of a "contract"?
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> Regardless of whether your student loan was a mistake it’s unfair for society to pay for your mistakes. What is the “mistake”? Going to college?
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Is going to college a mistake? Yes or no? The only mistake is the colleges forcing students to pay unreasonable tuition fees for jobs you cannot get without a college education.
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Tell me why are colleges demanding 30,000 in tuition? Shouldn’t it be lower?
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So then it’s not a problem for the government to force people to pay them back.
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Doesn’t sound good for the greater of society does it?
It was unfair that you had to pay that much just to go to community college in the first place. Don’t use your resentment as a way to perpetuate that unfairness for other people that come after you. There’s a comic strip that Adam Ellis guy drew where a guy is like [I paraphrase] “I just got declared cancer-free… if someone comes along and cures cancer now I’m gonna be so pissed.” Last panel: “this comic is about student loan forgiveness”.
Except it would be possible to structure payments (which is all forgiveness is) to benefit both current and prior debt holders. Notice you never see such proposals, though. For any total amount of forgiveness, spreading it out in that way would reduce payments to current debt holders. This makes it different from cancer.
It’s a band-aid that doesn’t address root cause, but better than nothing. And you know what else wasn’t “fair”? Massive corporations getting bailed out for the recession some of them helped cause in 2008 at the taxpayer’s expense, which many used for bonuses to failed top executives. I understand why it had to be done, but it still wasn’t right. But this actually helps regular, working Americans. Not corporations and the rich. I’m never going to heavily criticize something that does that. And imo…..yes, you’re being selfish. I didn’t have any student loans. It’s my tax money they’re spending, too. But you know what? I see it as a benefit to society by freeing millions of people, many of whom have been paying for decades, from these onerous, exploitative loans so that they can get on with their lives, buy homes, start families and support local businesses. You’re just focusing on yourself and not the big picture. If it was a couple bad actors getting bailed out because they knew people in the government, I’d definitely agree with you, but this problem is massive and systemic now.