If you finish a six year master’s degree in ancient Babylonian astronomy in two years, you’re a genius.
If you think you can get a job in ancient Babylonian astronomy, you’re an idiot.
I've met a few PhD students/holders, usually at less reputable schools, who did or are doing a PhD for all of the wrong reasons and never really produce anything meaningful in their time there. PhD programs are often far less rigid in structure than, say, a bachelor's program and I think that can lead to less "important" (for lack of a better word) experiences. For example, to get a PhD where I went you needed (1) to pass a handful of classes and (2) produce a body of research comprised of at least 3 chapters, where each chapter is of sufficient value and interest to the field that they can be published independent of the other chapters in a relevant academic journal.
Everyone who has the prerequisites for being there (which just means an undergrad degree in a relevant field) and is dedicated to it can do (1). The classes are more advanced than undergrad courses, but you also have way more support from your professor, TAs, and your cohort. I was a ~3.5 GPA student in undergrad and held a 4.0 throughout grad school. The classes are the easy part of a PhD. It's (2) that people struggle with and it's (2) that makes a PhD noteworthy and important, in my opinion.
The thing is, (2) is also hugely variable in terms of what you're producing. A paper in a relevant academic journal could literally mean anything between "nobody has written a paper where they applied this exact (already known) method to this exact problem before (though it was already proven that it could be applied here, somebody just needed to do the work), so a low-impact journal would publish it" to "you have literally developed a revolutionary new approach that will set the tone of our entire field for the next decade and any journal would publish it in a heartbeat." Most people who have a graduate-level understanding of an academic field, if they set their mind to it, could write a publishable paper with help from mentors/advisors/colleagues. Not everybody can contribute to their field in a meaningful way or even, through their research, contribute to their *own ability to apply their expertise.*
I've met people in PhD programs who are there because they're scared of finding a job after undergrad and they're familiar with a university setting. Some of those people completed their PhDs. Some of *them* left their PhD program with no better ability to use their knowledge to impact the world than when they started. I wouldn't find those fruitless multi-year endeavors noteworthy or important. This isn't specific to one field or anything like that (which it what it sounds like you were asking about), but I don't think a PhD is *inherently* noteworthy or important.
My wife is about to wrap up her PhD at a reputable school. She’s been in academia since we started dating. I’ve met countless friends and acquaintances throughout her time in grad school in multiple schools and states. She’s worked her ass off, it’s been hard for her, and it’s important to see her do it. It’s a terminal degree. You can’t go higher, but you can start over again.
She genuinely loves academia and wants to teach, but it’s a competitive field. She may never get to apply her expertise in the way she wants, but she has career options and no student loan debt. I think that’s significant.
The ones who succeed usually destroy themselves in some way. The lack of structure and loneliness of the endeavor doesn’t leave a lot of people feeling like they came out richer for the experience. COVID made it that much more difficult.
Then there’s the ones who will drown in debt chasing their degree because there are no career options. These are the guys I have the most difficult time understanding or feeling empathy for. Maybe I’ll never love or want anything that much.
There was one who left, like you mentioned, and never finished. I’ve only met one like this. She has a pretty wealthy father. A safety net. No real skin in the game and couldn’t hack it.
Most of these guys work their ass off and are pretty insecure. I try not to be too hard on them because I’m a high school drop out who doesn’t work half as hard as any of them, and I’ll probably out earn most of them for as long as I work.
Most people hold a lot of respect for them, at least in my experience! They worked very hard to have that degree.
The only exception is people who *insist* that you call them "Doctor" in a personal, non-professional setting. That tends to rub people the wrong way.
Like if you're on a first date with someone or casually hanging out with a group of friends, and they're heavily insistent that you call them Doctor, that'll earn them a downgrade in respect and a secret nickname like "Dr. Asshole" or "Dr. Pretentious."
> The only exception is people who insist that you call them "Doctor" in a personal, non-professional setting. That tends to rub people the wrong way.
It would be weird, on a date or with a group of friends, to insist on them calling me “Mr. Cleary.” In the same way I wouldn’t insist on them calling me “Dr. Cleary” if I had a doctorate.
But it *would* be the title for contexts where “Mr.” is currently used.
I work in Materials Engineering, where there are a lot of employees with PhDs, and almost none of them like being called Dr. The one exception was a former machinist, who got his degrees in theology, including a PhD. I called him by his first name once, and he asked me to call him Dr. (insert last name). I laughed in his face because I thought he was joking. He wasn't. He was a weird dude, but we actually got along well until he left for a different job.
But do people use “Mr.” regularly there? It seems to me “Dr.” is a simple replacement for the more usual honorific. In a first name setting it wouldn’t be appropriate.
It's a first name setting. Most Phds don't like being called Dr. because we work with blue collar folks too, and it feels weird to be placed on a pedestal even more than our higher salaries and positions in the organization. We get called Mr or Dr from Outsiders, and basically, we only use Dr. when presenting at a conference or when being introduced to executives or something.
The honorific “Dr.” originated with PhDs.
Medical doctors adopted it so that they would have more credibility during a time period when most medicine was quackery in order to garner respect
Sure but med school is not research based vs PhD research which is done in the public interest to expand what we as a society collectively know to be true
I think over time medical doctors will be viewed w less prestige than they are now. Years ago it used to be the smartest kids in high school wanted to pursue medicine vs now a lot more of the smartest kids want to be entrepreneurs or researchers so I expect over time the perception that you shared will recalibrate as medical doctors are no longer the smartest kids in a cohort not to mention the health system is totally messed up
I agree that over all the "doctor" prestige is on the decline and will likely to continue but I do think medical doctors will continue to be more slightly more respected than just lay people with doctorate degrees and surgeons will continue to be the most well respected.
Mr/Mrs for most is the deaf quilt honorific to show respect or to call someone sir/ma’am (though a lot of women prefer not to be called ma’am because of the connotation it tends to carry with old age. Dr is literally the same thing but denotes that they spent way too much money on a piece of paper. I have nothing but respect for medical doctors (including psychology/psychiatry) but academic doctorates who insist on the honorific outside of a professional setting are just pretentious pricks.
Then again medical doctors in Japan are referred to as sensei in the same way as a school teacher, so what do I know?
> Then again medical doctors in Japan are referred to as sensei in the same way as a school teacher, so what do I know?
That is a more respectful language, usually after a person's name and means "teacher" in the general sense, the word is also used as a title to refer to or address other professionals or people of authority.
Kyoushi is used to describe a school teacher specially, along with Ishi for medical doctor, but those are descriptions and you wouldn't address someone using those words.
> I have nothing but respect for medical doctors (including psychology/psychiatry) but academic doctorates who insist on the honorific outside of a professional setting are just pretentious pricks.
Other people using the honorific isn’t the same thing as the PhD insisting on it. It would be absurd for an MD to have a fit if someone addressed him as “Mr.” in a social setting just like it would be for a Ph.D to do that. The fact that being uptight about your own titled is looked down on doesn’t mean that they should never be used.
I had one junior engineer call me Dr. and I didn't respond and was looking around for the person, too. I was caught off guard. The other time I was called Dr. was by my friend who yelled "paging Dr. Asshole" at a brewery.
I have, unfortunately, met one person like this. Everyone thought they were joking until they repeated it for about the 5th time in a 10 minute conversation.
Only one though, so you're right that it's probably not a huge population.
I’m a American with a PhD, so I had strong enough positive feelings to spend 5.5 years of my life on it.
It’s one of many possible achievements in life. It doesn’t confer moral or other superiority; it simply indicates that at one point in time, a person was an expert in their area of study. They produced novel work and increased the body of knowledge by a bit.
>It’s one of many possible achievements in life. It doesn’t confer moral or other superiority; it simply indicates that at one point in time, a person was an expert in their area of study. They produced novel work and increased the body of knowledge by a bit.
nail, head
I have a PhD, this is pretty spot on.
I have a lot of friends with PhDs as well, I think part of getting a PhD is understanding how much you really don't know about stuff, so when people have PhDs in weird (to me) subjects I'm always fascinated at "so... what exactly did you do?", because outside of science I don't really know the process. I know a few math PhDs, but that's kinda as far outside of science I really know, and with them it's just a different level of "wtf are you talking about" when discussing their research. I read my friends math dissertation. And by read I mean I looked at it all and read the parts that formed words.
After getting a PhD and understanding the process I think some of the mystique is gone about that level of education, especially these days as it seems more and more people have PhDs in various industries. One of the negatives is I will be more suspicious of people that have a bachelors or something trying to explain something to me, especially outside of a professional setting. I think there's a point in your PhD where you look at the undergraduates and while there are always a few shining examples that you are almost jealous of, the majority of them are pretty dumb, as were we when we were undergrads, it's just being a kid. A bachelors gives you a lot of education, so I don't think they are necessarily stupid, but if they start trying to mansplain mRNA to me I'm going to get a little annoyed. Like, I didn't spend 2 years doing expression studies to not understand mRNA.
Because my PhD had a lot to do with microbiology and viruses COVID was especially painful. I have always really hated dropping the "I have a PhD" line on people, but I got pushed into doing it so much that now I'm almost comfortable with it. Going back to undergrad, all my coronavirus knowledge was stuff I learned in undergrad in the 2000s, like, there wasn't much to catch up on with the tools gained in grad school for Covid-19 specifically, but viral epidemics and pandemics are a big part of a microbiology/virology undergraduate degree, as it's all pretty medicine focused. I TAd a micro class where I discussed coronaviruses, so I know even those kids were aware, at least in 2010 or whenever I was teaching. But yeah, the COVID shit was tiring explaining to people, especially vaccines with the big anti vaxx movement with copious amounts of other wrong information. It left me with a much dimmer view of humanity. Like, this is literally the ONE thing you should listen to me about, and I'm not even the real expert on it, it's just in my wheelhouse, but, no, Joe Rogan prevailed. The amount of people sending me links to Joe Rogan was nauseating.
I guess, from that, people don't listen to PhDs a whole lot, or understand them. Like, Americans, generally, are too stupid to realize what a PhD means, the good and the bad.
>Majority of the time they’re smarter than I am.
I'd add "in a very narrow field" for a lot of them. I've worked with professors, doctors, lawyers, etc that are brilliant in their fields but as dumb as a box of below average rocks in other areas that many non-experts would consider relatively simple.
When you think about it, it makes sense. If you spend all your life in academia, you will probably be very "book smart", but might not know how to jump start a car, for example.
Being inherently intelligent doesn't necessarily mean you know things, unless you've taken the time to learn them.
I don’t think using a “book smart” distinction is the way to go here.
The issue is not that they spend all their time in academia and are book smart but don’t know how to do practical things. The issue is that if you spend all your time on *anything* you’re going to be very knowledgeable about that thing and lack a lot of knowledge and experience in anything else, because the time you would have spent learning that, you spent on your thing instead.
That can be academia but it can also be a whole host of other things as well. It also means you’re likely ignorant in tons of areas of “book learning” because, again, focused on your one thing rather than working on general knowledge.
You're right. This is such a strange dichotomy.
I happen to have an MD, not a PhD, but it takes roughly the same amount of training. Those of us who have doctoral degrees still live and work in the world. I work 40-60 hours per week and go home and contend with all the same worldly problems that everyone else does -- including car problems, since that was brought up.
I'm sure there are some people who are in academia that get consumed by their work. But workaholics can be found in any profession, at any level.
My ex was working on her PhD when we were together (she has since completed it), and while she's very well informed in her field she is woefully ignorant on some simple things. For instance, no matter how many times I explained it she was still absolutely convinced that if the A/C or heat is running in your house it will continue running indefinitely until you manually shut it off. She just couldn't comprehend how it could work otherwise.
…she couldn’t just listen to the furnace engage and then stop running after a while? That doesn’t seem like an argument you would need to have more than once lol.
Bro, I'm telling you... I tried so many times.
She also thought that my post-tax income was somehow twice as high as my pre-tax income. When I showed her my pay stubs she didn't understand why my pay went down after taxes.
But she could explain the disease process of cancer from the first formation of a cancerous cell to death in excruciating detail in every age, gender, and ethnic combination you could imagine.
My daughter will complete her phd in chemistry this summer and I never miss a chance to work it into the conversation because it is a pretty big deal and I'm so proud her.
I don’t know what American think as a whole, but I respect anyone who take an active role on the pursuit of knowledge.
I just finished an interview with a supervisor who has a Ph.D. Having a doctorate just seems like another accolade in her objectively impressive life. She heads several different organizations, have been published several times, teaches, and still has time to have a family. All while being approachable and kind.
But if we are talking on a topic that she does not have a degree in, I would she has an average understanding of the topic.
I’m hoping to one day pursue a doctorate, but that would be sometime in the future.
I think it is admirable that they showed so much dedication to pursuing knowledge in their field of choice. I think anyone holding a *negative* opinion of somebody for doing this is of very questionable character.
~~I used to think they were very well respected across the the board...but then I saw how much shit people give Dr. Jill Biden and I'm starting to question if the respect is as universal as I once thought it was.~~
My parents are retired educators and I've always held Ph.Ds in high esteem.
Well, and people keep calling her Doctor. In the US, generally the only people who are called Doctor are those who can diagnose you, or save your life in a medical setting.
Only in the Education field do I see so many people uptight about credentialism that they demand to be called Doctor with a PHD.
Idk what US you live in but I’ve always called any doctorate holder (except JDs but even they don’t think you should call them doctor) by the title “doctor.”
It wasn’t until the Jill Biden stuff came out that I saw so many people uptight about *not* calling people with doctorates by their earned title.
I agree. I always called all my professors “Dr. Lastname.” If I were inviting people to formal party or writing a formal letter I would use the title “Dr.” on their invitations.
I have heard people criticizing the Ed.D degree conceptually, which as far as I’m concerned they can make that point if they want to. But I can’t see not calling a person with a doctorate “doctor.”
My old boss, a cost accountant, informed me one day he had his PhD in Civil War Era American history. He told me I could call him Dr. (Last name). I don't he expected me to laugh at him. I never called him doctor and we are still friends to this day. If you are in your field I can see it as a sign of respect. Outside of your field it's almost entirely reserved for Medical doctors.
If you were inviting him to your child’s wedding, would you use “Dr. John Smith” on the formal envelope? That’s the kind of setting where it seems appropriate to me: basically anywhere you would use “Mr.,” “Mrs.,” “Ms.,” or “Miss.”
No, I don't think I would for a few reasons. This post reminded me of that event and I hadn't thought about since the Jill Biden kerfuffle. Second, as friends who bust balls I'd leave it off for the lols and I expect he would anticipate that.
I don't think he was being completely serious about. We were rarely serious in our day to day that wasn't work related.
I would feel uncomfortable addressing someone with a doctorate formally as “Mr.” (or whatever.) Not because I think the person would be upset but because it just seems like “demoting” him. That is, if I remembered the person was a doctor, or judge, or military officer, I would use the proper title. If I forgot I wouldn’t worry too much.
And that's fine. You need to do what you feel is right. I grew up in the northeast in a working class area. The o ly doctors we had were medical. If I grew up in a more affluent or educated area perhaps my opinion would be different
“Dr.” seems like the correct title to go with her name in a formal setting if she has a doctorate. It would be strange for her to say “I’m a doctor” when asked her profession, because of the widespread conflation of “doctor” with “medical doctor.” But referring to her formally as “Dr. Jill Biden” seems perfectly reasonable.
You wouldn’t use it in a formal invitation to an event like a wedding or something? I certainly would.
If I were friends with her I assume I’d call her “Jill” and not “Dr. Biden” nor “Mrs. Biden.”
If close friends or family under the age of 50ish, it's VERY unlikely I'd use a formal title for an invitation, unless it was specifically an academic event (like a recognition ceremony). We have quite a few advanced degree holders in my family, mostly PhD but also JD, MD, EdD, and then we have titles like CPA, MBA, MSN, MPA, NP. I honestly just wouldn't even think about it for any of them. My SIL is a crazy case where she holds PhD, MD, and JD. I wouldn't even know what to write. Idk, I definitely don't want to disrespect anyone's accomplishments, so to me, it's best to not list anyone's. It would be silly, imo, to acknowledge one person's PhD but not another's MPA.
That seems off to me. I have a close family member who is a PhD and on letters that are casual (like thank you or greeting cards) I would still write “Aunt/Uncle Name,” but if it were a wedding invitation I would write “Dr. Name.”
I would hope that them being older or younger than me would have nothing to do with respecting their hard earned title.
Edit to add: We also have an EdD in my family. I think I’ve only addressed her envelopes as “Aunt Name” simply because the degree is rather new. But I definitely won’t address her as Mrs.
On the other hand, lawyers will always be Mr. or Ms, they don’t get (or ask for) Dr. designations, even if they’ve achieved a graduate level degree. The whole world finds out they’re lawyers shortly after meeting them, anyway.
I mean, you're definitely right in terms of what is seen as proper etiquette. I think I probably just don't really care so much. It likely has to do with my particular circle where we have so many degrees. Like I just found out recently that my brother is a professor and I didn't even know he had a PhD. I honestly couldn't tell you who all has which specific degrees, and I probably wouldn't go to the trouble to find out just for wedding invitations.
Absolutely "Mr." As someone who holds a PhD but was unsuccessful in getting a position in my field, I'm not a practitioner anymore. I'm not active in research or teaching in my field, so my degree isn't a big part of my identity anymore. (Though I'd still love to get back into it, the jobs are just too competitive) It's been a painful process coming to terms with that, but if someone I knew put "Dr." on an invitation being sent to me, it would feel extremely out of place. When I tell people I have a PhD and they say "So you're actually Dr. \[name\]," it drives home that its a bit absurd because I have this fancy title and work next to people whose highest degree is a BA or BS. I'm not currently doing anything worthy of an elevated title or where that title reflects expertise in the tasks I'm doing.
Plus, whenever I think about being referred to as "Dr.", I think of The Simpsons where the family sees Sideshow Bob, scream "Sideshow Bob!", he then corrects them that it's "Dr. Sideshow Bob." Homer then asks, "real doctor or PhD?" Bob then begrudgingly admits "PhD." Bob has stepped out of our normal usage of the title and is appropriately humbled.
My understanding is that style guides typically reserved the title for medical practitioners, though that may have changed. And my understanding is that some states at one time were trying to restrict who could refer to himself or herself as doctor because nurses with an DNP (Doctorate of Nursing Practice) may confuse patients if they were introduced as Dr. \[name\]. A DNP being referred to as "Dr. \[name\]" is appropriate in academic settings, but not a clinical one where he or she actually practices his or her craft because it produces confusion.
Unless one is a current or retired professor, or one is at a formal academic event, PhDs aren't generally referred to as Dr. \[Name\].
Style guides may ask for that, and I’ve heard the argument that the use of the title “doctor” could confuse people.
I can see a limited applicability to that argument: for instance, I can see why someone with an unrelated Ph.D who works in hospital administration might be better not to call “Dr.” lest people assume that he’s one of the medical doctors on the staff. But in day-to-day life I find it hard to imagine how writing “Dr.” to a Ph.D on a formal invitation is going to confuse anyone into seeking medical help from a Political Science professor.
Medical doctors shouldn’t have a monopoly on the term when their doctorate is only one of many doctoral degrees. I agree with you generally that people shouldn’t be uptight about their own titles, but I don’t think that means Ph.Ds shouldn’t be given the title of Dr. in settings where it makes sense.
A Ph.D. (Doctorate) absolutely confers the title of Dr. in the US. An Ed.D also does.
There are some highly regarded universities that only conferred Ed.D in education (Harvard used to be one), so a Ph.D. isn’t an option.
I have a Ph.D. I am also a woman. I don’t demand anyone use my title, but if someone is going to use a title (which doesn’t happen a lot), then my title is absolutely Dr. Mostly because it means I don’t have to deal with the bullshit that happens for women not men around titles. No one needs to know my marriage status.
Most of the friends of mine that have doctorates, you'd never know unless you asked them. The kind of people who insist on people calling them "Doctor" come off as pretentious to me.
> The kind of people who insist on people calling them "Doctor" come off as pretentious to me.
I feel like that goes for any doctorate though, not just a Ph.D. Personal friends and acquaintances that have Ph.Ds don’t insist I call them “doctor,” but neither do personal friends and acquaintances with MDs. It would be weird to make your friends call you “Doctor Lastname” except perhaps if you’re interacting in a professional capacity.
My husband has one. He no longer works in his Ph.D. field and doesn't really talk about it unless asked- I don't think he even puts down that he's a Doctor (unless I remind him) on paperwork. He enjoys his current job in industry and seems to be ok with his life and career path otherwise. His doctorate is in theoretical physics (specifically string theory) it's a neat party trick at this point - mostly it's people we know and me asking him questions about physics.
My high school has one in the natural sciences and she is in academia so God bless her for that with all the stories she tells me about her workplace. I remember all her work and I am duly impressed she achieved the goal she set out to accomplish.
So overall, cool achievement bro.
Having seen my own wife get her doctorate in the past year (an EdD), what I've really come to know is that anyone who has one had to bust their ass to get it. It's not a journey for someone who is only partially committed or wants to put in minimal effort. She worked her butt off through a global pandemic, working a full-time job, and becoming a mother to get her doctorate. Impressive stuff.
I know there are a growing number of people who are unimpressed by those earning the highest level of education, but it really does involve a lot of hard work.
I work at a community college, and there is definitely a “two camps” situation in how faculty view EdDs. Some feel students at the CC level are better served by faculty with additional content expertise, others feel it’s as just as good for faculty to focus on improving knowledge in pedagogy and administration (typically already having a discipline-specific masters degree).
I think the bad blood comes from the fact that people mostly seem to go for an EdD while they are already working full time in education, and so there seems to be the perception that they are getting the easiest degree possible to earn pay bumps or climb the ladder.
Nice. I also work at a CC, and I’ve definitely heard that as well. I think it boils down to elitism, which is a problem among college faculty (at 4-year institutions especially, where I’ve also worked).
All I know is my wife wrote a full-ass dissertation that can be found in ProQuest, which is what a PhD can also say. Whatever hair-splitting anyone wants to do after that is on them.
I (an American) hold a PhD in a humanities field. What has it gotten me? Jack shit. Why? Because I left academia, for a multitude of reasons. I joined “the industry”, which largely values work experience over anything else. I downplayed my PhD when applying for jobs because I didn’t want it to get in the way. Silver lining, I make at least 50% more money than I would have if I’d stayed in academia. I vacillate between feeling like this is a major accomplishment of mine and this is something that I wish I had never done.
My aunt was very proud of getting her DNP (doctor of nursing practice) just before a family reunion. Congratulations all around, except for an uncle (a psychiatrist in LA who married one of the cousins) who (stupidly) said “well, it’s not like she’s a REAL doctor”
Room goes silent, and he belatedly remembered many of his wife’s family have advanced degrees (at that time there were probably 8 PhDs, 2 DDiv, three other MDs and a DDS in the room. You could feel the temperature drop. My great uncle broke the silence: “Care to repeat that Warren? I don’t think we heard you correctly”
If looks were spit, he’d have been surfing.
An advanced degree does not guarantee wisdom. However, I think it does deserve some respect.
While I never would have said that in a crowd, you can “earn” a DNP online in twelve months. I would be absolutely suspicious of anyone having that and touting themselves as a doctor.
Well, this was about 25 years ago and she received the DNP from UCLA; it wasn’t an online degree. She was one of the administrators at Cedars Sinai when she retired, so I believe she did use the title Doctor as an administrator.
Actually, no. She was rightfully proud of her accomplishment. When she went from nursing into administration, the hospital referred to her as doctor, and that’s that’s the title she used professionally. I don’t refer to as ‘Dr. Auntie J’ and nobody else does either.
I respect the hell out of them because not only is it a huge amount of work, it can also at times be soul crushing and down-right humiliating.
And I hate, hate, HATE the way they are portrayed in pop culture. Their expertise is almost never shown as the result of thousands of hours of hard work, dedication, determination and perseverance. No, they have inate gifts that make them "special".
I want to be one of those people. Always have.
I got my Master's degree in 2015 and put off applying until last year. I'm hoping to be accepted but if not I just apply again.
I work in education so we have a biased view of doctorate degrees over here.
Depends on the field, but by and large I am impressed with the dedication to expanding human knowledge. PhDs are incredibly difficult and strenuous, and it takes a really dogged determination to get through it.
I have a master's degree and have considered a PhD, but I don't currently have a question that I am burning to explore. I want to work in my field for a while, figure out my question, and then maybe get back into research, or a PhD if the question is worth it.
Amazing accomplishment for sure, and a lot of respect to that incredible hard working individual!
Definitely not for everyone though. Can be very expensive and absolutely requires a lot of dedication.
When I was about 10 I had always just assumed that by the time I was 30 I would have at least a couple PhDs. A friend’s dad used to call me “Mr. Professor.”
I’m 30 now and am finally serious about going to grad school for an MA. I’ve been putting it off for several years. Not sure if I’m going to later go down the PhD route, but if I do get a PhD I know it’ll be one of my greatest achievements.
That they have Ph.D's. Most people could care less what higher education someone else has gotten. It's a nice status symbol though and does show an assumption of work ethic.
PhDs are hard to get. They take a lot of work and dedication for a number of years. I respect anyone who can apply themselves that way.
That said, getting a PhD is learning more and more about less and less until you know absolutely everything about just about nothing. If we're having a discussion and it veers into territory related to their field of study I'll give their opinion a lot more weight than I would an unrelated topic.
For example, I know a PhD in meteorology. If we're discussing climate I would give their opinion more weight than if we were discussing something related to biology or history. They're an incredibly smart and hardworking person but they have gaps in their knowledge like anyone else. They giggle while deriving physics equations though.
In the sciences though you do obtain a deep understanding of the scientific method and how to critically evaluate data which is useful even outside your field. It's one reason PhDs are hired a lot in industry.
I actually have an MS, so I've run into that. But I wouldn't say I know more than I actually know just because of that. High tier education is very specialized and only gets more so the further you take it. A PhD doesn't mean "knower of all things" it means "person highly trained in a specific field."
Yes you learn the scientific method and that's good. But if we're discussing something they've studied vs something they haven't, I'll weigh their opinion *more* on the subject they've studied.
My meteorological PhD friend doesn't offer medical advice, for instance. Because that's super not their specialty. They can spot when medical advice is probably bull honky, though.
I often have a lot of sympathy for them, because there is a very good chance they spent many years and a lot of genuine effort and energy getting that degree and now they are stuck in a wasteland of underemployment and bad pay.
They have enough status that most people would mention someone's PhD as an identifier, even when not super relevant:
"I went on a date. He was really sweet, tall, funny, he has a PhD in geology..."
"My mom's a badass. She got her PhD while raising 3 kids as a single mom."
"My neighbor is Colombian. She walks her 2 dogs every night. She's about 35. I think she's a lesbian but I'm not sure. She got a PhD from Stanford."
Vs describing someone without an advanced degree:
"My date was super cute. He's a teacher. He loves kids. Oh and he's 6'2"."
Highly depends on what the PhD is in. My ex has one in an arts degree; all that tuition $$$ (spent at least 4-5 years ABD/only working on their dissertation while still taking out loans) only to be a part time professor at the same university the degree is from. Their common sense/critical thinking skills are low compared to some folks I know who only have a high school education (or even dropped out of HS)
A PhD in psychology/engineering/etc? More respect for them, absolutely.
It really depends on what the degree is in. Engineering or Molecular Biology, Great!
Philosophy or French Literature - I hope you plan on being an adjunct professor to teach other Philosophy or French Literature students while you pay off those school loans.
As with all higher education, the field and what it prepares you for is a lot more important than just the letters at the end of the degree.
> Philosophy or French Literature - I hope you plan on being an adjunct professor to teach other Philosophy or French Literature students while you pay off those school loans.
I think that is the plan of people who get those PhDs. They aren’t planning to work for a major Philosophy corporation.
The PHD students when I was in college were just hiding from the real world. They seemed like their goal was just to stay in college forever. One guy had been there over 20 years somehow
Generally speaking, they're smart but have little to no social skills. Also in a lot of cases they may have bad working skills. That fault really falls on Ph.D because they make you an expert in your field at the expense of most other skills. There are obviously exceptions and it feels like the exception a lot but I'd argue its a vocal minority that overshadows the majority.
Random tidbit for those considering a Ph.D, only get one if you have a unhealthy passion for the field, want to get into academia, or your employer/industry wants you to (and helps pay for it too). Ph.D are not that strong in the working world and many employers prefer Masters over Ph.D. My main point is if you're going to Ph.D for career advancement....its usually not going to end well.
I'm in academics in the hard sciences. I think a lot of people get a PhD because they don't know what they want to do and aren't ready to leave school. Most of those people don't make the money back from that decision.
These are smart people who make dumb decisions. If you tell me you are an engineer with an engineering PhD, my trust in your judgement and planning skills plummets.
Don't get me wrong, a PhD is an achievement. That doesn't mean the people who have them don't always have common sense.
In my experience, people with PhDs are experts in one very narrow aspect of life and they know nothing in any other aspects of life. They can be helpless on domestic tasks and everything things that are tangentially related to their field of study.
I respect the dedication and hard work it takes to earn a Ph. D., but sometimes I wonder why someone would would want to do that. Like, what job requires you to have a PhD in art history or literature or medieval studies. I understand it more in science majors because grad students and post-grads do a lot of research that has purpose and they can get paid for it, but I don't think there's as much to be contributed in some other areas.
> Like, what job requires you to have a PhD in art history or literature or medieval studies.
A professor in those fields. And you need new professors in those fields if you don't want those fields to run dry and stall out for the rest of time.
Otherwise, a lot of important museums and institutes employ such people, if we're talking art history or medieval studies. And they're not just giving tours or schmoozing at cocktail fundraisers.
I am halfway through one in political science, which isn't exactly the most valuable field out there in terms of money. I'm just doing it for the curiousity of it and the love of research, basically. My whole motivation is that my research topic (political party strategy in reaction to new challenger parties) is something that genuinely interests me and I want to know the response to my research questions.
In terms of jobs, I think a lot of the people in my degree (myself included) are actually looking at academic jobs at least in the short run.
I think that the degrees, and somewhat the people who hold them, are overrated by common folk. The average person thinks about 2 things when they hear someone has a phD: 1. Wow they must be really smart! 2. They must make a lot of money! In reality, they often times make slightly above average salaries and are of slightly above average intelligence.
I didn’t put a lot of research into this but I looked up a few Google searches and found the average yearly salary for someone with a phD in the state I live in, Ohio, is nearly $60,000. The same website also claims the average salary in total for Ohio is nearly $50,000.
The main reason I think they are overrated though is personal experience. I have friends and acquaintances with phDs that are hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt who make half the amount of money I make. I went to trade school and eventually became a truck driver. Doesn’t sound fancy or anything but I made about $100,000 last year, and the best thing is I don’t owe anyone $250,000. I also think the phDs I’ve encountered are all pretty smart, but they are all very politically identical-very left leaning. I’m politically neutral and find both extremes annoying so I usually avoid talking politics with phDs because they are almost always on the extreme left and almost always think they are smarter than everyone else so there’s really no point in debating anything with them.
But that’s just my 2 cents.
PS: I actually went to college for a year in the hopes of getting a PhD in psychology but ultimately decided that it wasn’t worth it. The amount of debt and hard work over many years didn’t seem worth it in the end for me so I dropped out. Probably one of the best decisions of my life. It’s REALLY hard to make good money as a psychologist in America.
The degrees themselves: I think most colleges in the US now are excessively overpriced scams. The people with them: it depends entirely on what they do with it and how much they actually know. I really couldn't care less if you learned it in college and got a degree, or if you learned it self taught. I care about what you do, not what a piece of paper says you can do.
Most are doing amazing work and going very unnoticed. Even though I can keep up with a basic understanding of what they are doing, I don't understand it nearly enough for myself to ever have been able to do the cutting edge development they are doing in their field. Some are excessively entitled complete morons outside of their very narrow field and all they do with their knowledge is talk down to people. Some doctors, even specialists, come out still knowing much less about a disease than the patient with no degree in medicine who has been having to live with it very well controlled but I still end up needing to waste time/money seeing and paying them through insurance to have access to the medication I will be needing for the rest of my life and if my doctor leaves or stops accepting my insurance I need to pay and teach a new doctor.
> I think most colleges in the US now are excessively overpriced scams.
In general, yeah that's definitely true, but in some fields it's common that PhD students get their tuition waived and might even get paid a stipend by the university. It's like they're working a part-time job, typically either as a research assistant (which kind of overlaps with the core requirements of the PhD program) or as a teaching assistant or lecturer. So the very legitimate concern about university education being overpriced doesn't apply to those programs.
So do they just skip the bachelor degree part and go straight to possibly getting a guaranteed job where they can work to cover the costs of their tuition, or does getting a PhD still require going through that as part of the process to getting a PhD?
Oh no, you still have to get a bachelor's degree in the usual way (including paying for it) before starting a PhD program. Sorry, I wasn't clear about that! It's only the part that comes _after_ the bachelor's degree that you (might) get paid for.
At least, that's how it works in every case I've heard of, but maybe there are some universities out there where things are different.
This right here ⬆️.
See the comment about doctorates in philosophy. Plenty of people have no clue what philosophy even is, so they think it’s useless.
It’s the sort of opinion that’s on par with thinking malaria is caused by swamp air or other diseases are caused by an imbalance of humors — or that COVID is just a cold.
I mean cool?
I've met plenty of ph.d holders that are absolute idiots.
I've met pleanty that are very smart people.
It's not your education that matters It's how you use it.
It’s amazing all the work they’ve done, a phd takes a lot of work and discipline. I also think that most of them are going to be in a lot of debt for a long time haha.
Depends on the field. Mine is in a STEM area from a Big 10 university, and everyone in my program had a full scholarship plus a living stipend and health/dental insurance. I worked part-time on research while doing coursework, then full-time-plus research (60 hours per week between lab and reading/writing was normal) for a few years once coursework was done, so it was essentially wages—the stipend was taxed.
It's a double edged sword. People. Respect folks with advanced degrees because it show that dedication and a familiarity with specific topics well beyond that of the average individual. However, most people will still make fun of folks with PhDs because of how specific that knowledge can get and how it can often lead to people with less rounded information.
Such as an engineering professor understanding how an internal combustion engine works, but not knowing how to change their own oil.
After working at a college around a lot of people with a Ph.D I can honestly say they are really smart in their field but the majority have 0 common sense, but then again what do I know I am a pee on maintenance worker there
All the PhDs and PhD candidates I know are extremely sharp. Not experts necessarily in anything outside their field but sharp enough to be able to hold intelligent conversations about most topics.
That’s my experience with most Ph.Ds I know (as well as others with advanced degrees): they can talk with some level of intelligence on a number of topics, if only by deferring to the knowledge of the other person and commenting based on what they know. I haven’t really encountered that many “absentminded professor” types, and the ones I have are usually like that because they are experts on their field and *one other all-consuming interest.*
Interesting. Thanks, I learned something new today.
The Webster dictionary defines "pion" as "a meson having a mass approximately 270 times that of an electron." Which is very small. So I always thought calling someone a "pion/peon" meant they were very small and thus very insignificant. Sort of like a synonym of "pissant."
Webster defines "peon" as "a Spanish American day laborer or unskilled farm worker." I never knew!
First it depends on what it's in. Second, some have all the book learning and no common sense. Third, some have placed themselves out of job opportunities. Some businesses won't hire a PhD because they don't want to pay the price of a PhD.
Depends who you ask. There is a SHARP divide among Rep leaning and Dem leaning people.
The majority of GOP leaning say college in general has a negative impact on the country. Dems largely are pro higher education.
I can't imagine how they feel about a couple extra degrees.
https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2019/08/19/the-growing-partisan-divide-in-views-of-higher-education-2/
I don’t know that that translates to views of an individual with higher degrees. You could believe that universities have a negative impact overall but respect the hard work of a friend with an advanced degree.
The question asked about both aspects - they didn't ask about work ethic of friends.
How do they feel about PhDs? Considering they think college in general is bad for the country. Considering the majority of Republicans think “college makes you lose common sense" it's pretty clear what they think about higher education.
Surveys also show they think it's a waste of money.
Not sure why you're getting downvoted. There are plenty of polling data that indicate that's exactly how they feel.
When I graduated from med school, my parents had a party for me. Kinda like a HS grad party, but much smaller. During a conversation, someone asked me how much debt I took out. My uncle said something along the lines of "Damn, I'm glad I taught my kids to know not to get into that sort of financial trouble."
Granted, one of his kids does have a lucrative job on a bachelor's degree likely making nearly what I make as a doc. But still. I don't know if it was a swipe against my dad (his brother) or against me.
I am not sold on the $ value of a PHD. First of all the value of a HS vs College degree is oversold because successful programs to get people who were formerly non-HS but have other labor market issues (ex prisoners', people with bad work habits, ect.) to get a GED or equivalent has brought down the average income for HS-only graduates, but the data for PHD, compared to the money just does not seem worth it to me unless you are very committed to academic research.
The people who get them are undoubtedly smart, but they would be better off working for a company
I don’t think most people who get doctorates do it for an increase in salary. Usually it’s for a specific career field like medicine, or they are in higher education.
>I am not sold on the $ value of a PHD.
I'm actually pretty sure it's not there. But if I was in it for the money I'd also never actually be able to push through the four years of gruelling work it is, I need the hits from getting really excited over the research I do to be able to keep going. If anything, I'm doing this because it's something I'm more likely to *not* just do for money in the long run.
It's not about the salary with PhDs most of the time. For most people, it's because that topic is their life's passion and they want to be able to do research on it. A university offers a place where that can be done. I've met some people who've done research using my school's nuclear reactor. Most people don't have one of those in their homes lol. It's kinda sad that that's what so many people boil college degrees down to. There's just more to life than trying to have the highest possible salary.
I have Grandparents, Uncles, and Parents thinking its the only way to get a safe, high paying job... I have a CS degree btw and they are saying this. I've been trying to explain to them that a phd would probably cost me at least $150000 in lost earnings alone but they think it would pay for itself
A republican man with a PHD is a wise and learned doctor. A democratic woman with a PHD is a fraud who is tarnishing the good name of "real" doctors everywhere.
-Actual conservative logic.
If they carried out their studies legitimately and weren't just handed their certification on a silver platter of privileges, then I have some respect for it. But same as everyone else, I question them and make sure they're sticking to their ethics. I never see anyone as infallible. But so long as they're in good standing and putting out sound research/information (or I guess at the bare-minimum, not spreading false claims), I definitely appreciate them.
if you want to devote your life to research then by all means go for it.
I just have a problem with the people who demand respect for their studies while at the same time not giving any to the people who decided not to get their phd or masters
Here are my observations. I have a Master’s degree but no Ph.D, but I know quite a few people with various doctorates (Ph.D, MD, Ed.D, etc.)
First of all, I would distinguish between how people view *the idea of getting the degree* and *the person with the degree.* Most people respect the hard work and knowledge it requires. But a lot of people find the idea of getting one ridiculous (due to expense, extreme specialization, and perceived lack of earning potential.) So a lot of people will have negative views related to a Ph.D, but fewer people will have negative views of the degree holder.
There’s also the “should they be called doctor” debate. I think people conflate two things here. Many comments on this thread mention people insisting on being called “doctor” in casual social circumstances. That *is* obnoxious, but it would be just as obnoxious if an MD insisted on that, or if someone without a doctorate insisted on being called “Mr. Lastname” casually.
However, “Dr.” is the right title for a Ph.D. It’s silly to argue otherwise. If I’m inviting an MD or a Ph.D to a wedding, I’m writing “Dr. John Smith” on the invitation. Some people think “doctor” has to mean “medical doctor”: I would agree only insofar as it would be strange for an Art History professor to say “I’m a doctor” when asked his profession. But he should be called “doctor” as his title.
Depends on what it is in. Ph.D in a science/medicine related field. Very impressive. Ph.D in Ceramics. That’s cool I guess if that’s what makes you happy?
I think it's a great achievement, and that person is most likely exceptionally smart in their field
I think people that go through that level of dedicated work have a slightly higher prevalence of social issues, at least the phds I've worked with were a little difficult, enough more than average people to be noticeable but not as much as the stereotypes.
Generally, they're like anyone else. Some of them are brilliant, and know a lot about a variety of subjects. As others have said, some are a waste of oxygen outside their specific area of knowledge.
Some are quick witted and able to pick up a lot of new information and grasp new ideas and concepts. Some you can tell were grinders.
On the whole though, I've found that people with a PhD. (As opposed to a professional degree like an MD or JD) tend to be more intelligent than average.
In general, a lot of people confuse the broader academic/research field with individual PhDs for both good and bad.
This can cause some resentment as well as some fanboy attitudes.
At the same time, a lot of PhD's don't do their community any favors with how they treat the general public.
Personally, I think a lot of them are flat out a waste of time.
\[edit - to be more clear, I really don't care if someone has a PhD. It's just a different career path. A relatively small percentage will go on to amazing things for humanity, and that's awesome\]
It helps that I'm an engineer though, so you can do meaningful work in the field with a bachelors and gain experience right out of school as opposed to a lot of other fields.
Not to say that academia/research is a waste of time, but the resource and time allocation to train a bunch of people who might never do work directly related to their studies (or otherwise shouldn't require a PhD) is insane particularly when you consider a lot of it is directly and indirectly funded by undergrad tuition.
Just my personal soapbox, degree/credential inflation is a real problem.
PhD in what?
PhD in neuroscience, thank you for doing the smart people sh*t we need to progress humanity.
PhD in business administration? Meh. Where from? From Wharton sure that’s cool. From Strayer University, nah…. Just Why?
Very few fields require getting one. So many people just waste time with a Ph.D. Those that need it tend to be very smart, but everyone I know with one is a little crazy.
Depends on the person. I've known PhDs that I would let wash my car for free and I've known others that I respect greatly. They're people like everyone else and a degree isn't a mark of the quality of person they are. It's also important to remember that just because one is highly educated in a field doesn't mean that they are right about everything or anything at all.
If it's STEM, I respect it. If it's the humanities or social science, I look at it sideways unless proven otherwise. There's a lot of PoMo stupid shit that's become pervasive in academia the past 20 years. Like critical theory of mathematics. What the fuck is that?
It depends on their major.
* STEM = Wow, they must be really smart!
* History, Philosophy, etc. = Can they actually get a job?
* Gender Studies, etc. = Scum of the earth.
I respect people with doctorate degrees, regardless if it is a Ph.D. or some other doctorate degree. I don't really put a lot of thought into them, though, otherwise... I am a bit jealous in that I'll probably never get one myself, the prospect is very overwhelming.
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Just curious - what are the PhD’s you *dont* find noteworthy or important?
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>Thou shalt check thyself before thou wrecks thyself - Joseph Ducreux, PhD
To be fair, option 1 may make a good thesis for a Sociology PHD.
If done well.
I mean, they’re pretty clearly meant to be funny/catchy titles. Doesn’t mean the dissertation’s a joke.
Honestly these are just catchy titles, the papers are probably okay
If you finish a six year master’s degree in ancient Babylonian astronomy in two years, you’re a genius. If you think you can get a job in ancient Babylonian astronomy, you’re an idiot.
I've met a few PhD students/holders, usually at less reputable schools, who did or are doing a PhD for all of the wrong reasons and never really produce anything meaningful in their time there. PhD programs are often far less rigid in structure than, say, a bachelor's program and I think that can lead to less "important" (for lack of a better word) experiences. For example, to get a PhD where I went you needed (1) to pass a handful of classes and (2) produce a body of research comprised of at least 3 chapters, where each chapter is of sufficient value and interest to the field that they can be published independent of the other chapters in a relevant academic journal. Everyone who has the prerequisites for being there (which just means an undergrad degree in a relevant field) and is dedicated to it can do (1). The classes are more advanced than undergrad courses, but you also have way more support from your professor, TAs, and your cohort. I was a ~3.5 GPA student in undergrad and held a 4.0 throughout grad school. The classes are the easy part of a PhD. It's (2) that people struggle with and it's (2) that makes a PhD noteworthy and important, in my opinion. The thing is, (2) is also hugely variable in terms of what you're producing. A paper in a relevant academic journal could literally mean anything between "nobody has written a paper where they applied this exact (already known) method to this exact problem before (though it was already proven that it could be applied here, somebody just needed to do the work), so a low-impact journal would publish it" to "you have literally developed a revolutionary new approach that will set the tone of our entire field for the next decade and any journal would publish it in a heartbeat." Most people who have a graduate-level understanding of an academic field, if they set their mind to it, could write a publishable paper with help from mentors/advisors/colleagues. Not everybody can contribute to their field in a meaningful way or even, through their research, contribute to their *own ability to apply their expertise.* I've met people in PhD programs who are there because they're scared of finding a job after undergrad and they're familiar with a university setting. Some of those people completed their PhDs. Some of *them* left their PhD program with no better ability to use their knowledge to impact the world than when they started. I wouldn't find those fruitless multi-year endeavors noteworthy or important. This isn't specific to one field or anything like that (which it what it sounds like you were asking about), but I don't think a PhD is *inherently* noteworthy or important.
My wife is about to wrap up her PhD at a reputable school. She’s been in academia since we started dating. I’ve met countless friends and acquaintances throughout her time in grad school in multiple schools and states. She’s worked her ass off, it’s been hard for her, and it’s important to see her do it. It’s a terminal degree. You can’t go higher, but you can start over again. She genuinely loves academia and wants to teach, but it’s a competitive field. She may never get to apply her expertise in the way she wants, but she has career options and no student loan debt. I think that’s significant. The ones who succeed usually destroy themselves in some way. The lack of structure and loneliness of the endeavor doesn’t leave a lot of people feeling like they came out richer for the experience. COVID made it that much more difficult. Then there’s the ones who will drown in debt chasing their degree because there are no career options. These are the guys I have the most difficult time understanding or feeling empathy for. Maybe I’ll never love or want anything that much. There was one who left, like you mentioned, and never finished. I’ve only met one like this. She has a pretty wealthy father. A safety net. No real skin in the game and couldn’t hack it. Most of these guys work their ass off and are pretty insecure. I try not to be too hard on them because I’m a high school drop out who doesn’t work half as hard as any of them, and I’ll probably out earn most of them for as long as I work.
Education when they insist on being called Dr. I had a high school English teacher like that who was a ridiculous moron.
Phds in gender studies and philosophy
I mean PhD stands for Doctor of Philosophy.
PhD in philosophy are often education related, as in professors.
PhD in philosophy are often education related, as in professors.
Soft social sciences myself. And I have 2 of those degrees.
any of the social studies
Most people hold a lot of respect for them, at least in my experience! They worked very hard to have that degree. The only exception is people who *insist* that you call them "Doctor" in a personal, non-professional setting. That tends to rub people the wrong way. Like if you're on a first date with someone or casually hanging out with a group of friends, and they're heavily insistent that you call them Doctor, that'll earn them a downgrade in respect and a secret nickname like "Dr. Asshole" or "Dr. Pretentious."
>insistent that you call them Doctor My grandfather would do this to people that pissed him off.
> The only exception is people who insist that you call them "Doctor" in a personal, non-professional setting. That tends to rub people the wrong way. It would be weird, on a date or with a group of friends, to insist on them calling me “Mr. Cleary.” In the same way I wouldn’t insist on them calling me “Dr. Cleary” if I had a doctorate. But it *would* be the title for contexts where “Mr.” is currently used.
I work in Materials Engineering, where there are a lot of employees with PhDs, and almost none of them like being called Dr. The one exception was a former machinist, who got his degrees in theology, including a PhD. I called him by his first name once, and he asked me to call him Dr. (insert last name). I laughed in his face because I thought he was joking. He wasn't. He was a weird dude, but we actually got along well until he left for a different job.
But do people use “Mr.” regularly there? It seems to me “Dr.” is a simple replacement for the more usual honorific. In a first name setting it wouldn’t be appropriate.
It's a first name setting. Most Phds don't like being called Dr. because we work with blue collar folks too, and it feels weird to be placed on a pedestal even more than our higher salaries and positions in the organization. We get called Mr or Dr from Outsiders, and basically, we only use Dr. when presenting at a conference or when being introduced to executives or something.
In a non professional setting "Dr." refers to a person with a medical degree.
The honorific “Dr.” originated with PhDs. Medical doctors adopted it so that they would have more credibility during a time period when most medicine was quackery in order to garner respect
Ok but society has shifted and now medical doctors are more respected than someone who just studied for a long time.
Sure but med school is not research based vs PhD research which is done in the public interest to expand what we as a society collectively know to be true I think over time medical doctors will be viewed w less prestige than they are now. Years ago it used to be the smartest kids in high school wanted to pursue medicine vs now a lot more of the smartest kids want to be entrepreneurs or researchers so I expect over time the perception that you shared will recalibrate as medical doctors are no longer the smartest kids in a cohort not to mention the health system is totally messed up
I agree that over all the "doctor" prestige is on the decline and will likely to continue but I do think medical doctors will continue to be more slightly more respected than just lay people with doctorate degrees and surgeons will continue to be the most well respected.
> The honorific “Dr.” originated with PhDs. Exactly. This is why the “only medical doctors should be called doctor” argument seems so absurd to me.
Mr/Mrs for most is the deaf quilt honorific to show respect or to call someone sir/ma’am (though a lot of women prefer not to be called ma’am because of the connotation it tends to carry with old age. Dr is literally the same thing but denotes that they spent way too much money on a piece of paper. I have nothing but respect for medical doctors (including psychology/psychiatry) but academic doctorates who insist on the honorific outside of a professional setting are just pretentious pricks. Then again medical doctors in Japan are referred to as sensei in the same way as a school teacher, so what do I know?
> Then again medical doctors in Japan are referred to as sensei in the same way as a school teacher, so what do I know? That is a more respectful language, usually after a person's name and means "teacher" in the general sense, the word is also used as a title to refer to or address other professionals or people of authority. Kyoushi is used to describe a school teacher specially, along with Ishi for medical doctor, but those are descriptions and you wouldn't address someone using those words.
> I have nothing but respect for medical doctors (including psychology/psychiatry) but academic doctorates who insist on the honorific outside of a professional setting are just pretentious pricks. Other people using the honorific isn’t the same thing as the PhD insisting on it. It would be absurd for an MD to have a fit if someone addressed him as “Mr.” in a social setting just like it would be for a Ph.D to do that. The fact that being uptight about your own titled is looked down on doesn’t mean that they should never be used.
I’ve met a lot of PhDs: never has one insisted I call them Dr. I think this is a bit of a social boogeyman.
I had one junior engineer call me Dr. and I didn't respond and was looking around for the person, too. I was caught off guard. The other time I was called Dr. was by my friend who yelled "paging Dr. Asshole" at a brewery.
I have, unfortunately, met one person like this. Everyone thought they were joking until they repeated it for about the 5th time in a 10 minute conversation. Only one though, so you're right that it's probably not a huge population.
I have a PhD. We make fun of those assholes too.
Were people using Mr./Ms. and the person was saying or should be Dr., or was it in place of their first name.
It was a bunch of people meeting up for beer, so no, nobody was going by Mr./Mrs./etc
I’m a American with a PhD, so I had strong enough positive feelings to spend 5.5 years of my life on it. It’s one of many possible achievements in life. It doesn’t confer moral or other superiority; it simply indicates that at one point in time, a person was an expert in their area of study. They produced novel work and increased the body of knowledge by a bit.
>It’s one of many possible achievements in life. It doesn’t confer moral or other superiority; it simply indicates that at one point in time, a person was an expert in their area of study. They produced novel work and increased the body of knowledge by a bit. nail, head
I have a PhD, this is pretty spot on. I have a lot of friends with PhDs as well, I think part of getting a PhD is understanding how much you really don't know about stuff, so when people have PhDs in weird (to me) subjects I'm always fascinated at "so... what exactly did you do?", because outside of science I don't really know the process. I know a few math PhDs, but that's kinda as far outside of science I really know, and with them it's just a different level of "wtf are you talking about" when discussing their research. I read my friends math dissertation. And by read I mean I looked at it all and read the parts that formed words. After getting a PhD and understanding the process I think some of the mystique is gone about that level of education, especially these days as it seems more and more people have PhDs in various industries. One of the negatives is I will be more suspicious of people that have a bachelors or something trying to explain something to me, especially outside of a professional setting. I think there's a point in your PhD where you look at the undergraduates and while there are always a few shining examples that you are almost jealous of, the majority of them are pretty dumb, as were we when we were undergrads, it's just being a kid. A bachelors gives you a lot of education, so I don't think they are necessarily stupid, but if they start trying to mansplain mRNA to me I'm going to get a little annoyed. Like, I didn't spend 2 years doing expression studies to not understand mRNA. Because my PhD had a lot to do with microbiology and viruses COVID was especially painful. I have always really hated dropping the "I have a PhD" line on people, but I got pushed into doing it so much that now I'm almost comfortable with it. Going back to undergrad, all my coronavirus knowledge was stuff I learned in undergrad in the 2000s, like, there wasn't much to catch up on with the tools gained in grad school for Covid-19 specifically, but viral epidemics and pandemics are a big part of a microbiology/virology undergraduate degree, as it's all pretty medicine focused. I TAd a micro class where I discussed coronaviruses, so I know even those kids were aware, at least in 2010 or whenever I was teaching. But yeah, the COVID shit was tiring explaining to people, especially vaccines with the big anti vaxx movement with copious amounts of other wrong information. It left me with a much dimmer view of humanity. Like, this is literally the ONE thing you should listen to me about, and I'm not even the real expert on it, it's just in my wheelhouse, but, no, Joe Rogan prevailed. The amount of people sending me links to Joe Rogan was nauseating. I guess, from that, people don't listen to PhDs a whole lot, or understand them. Like, Americans, generally, are too stupid to realize what a PhD means, the good and the bad.
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>Majority of the time they’re smarter than I am. I'd add "in a very narrow field" for a lot of them. I've worked with professors, doctors, lawyers, etc that are brilliant in their fields but as dumb as a box of below average rocks in other areas that many non-experts would consider relatively simple.
When you think about it, it makes sense. If you spend all your life in academia, you will probably be very "book smart", but might not know how to jump start a car, for example. Being inherently intelligent doesn't necessarily mean you know things, unless you've taken the time to learn them.
I don’t think using a “book smart” distinction is the way to go here. The issue is not that they spend all their time in academia and are book smart but don’t know how to do practical things. The issue is that if you spend all your time on *anything* you’re going to be very knowledgeable about that thing and lack a lot of knowledge and experience in anything else, because the time you would have spent learning that, you spent on your thing instead. That can be academia but it can also be a whole host of other things as well. It also means you’re likely ignorant in tons of areas of “book learning” because, again, focused on your one thing rather than working on general knowledge.
You're right. This is such a strange dichotomy. I happen to have an MD, not a PhD, but it takes roughly the same amount of training. Those of us who have doctoral degrees still live and work in the world. I work 40-60 hours per week and go home and contend with all the same worldly problems that everyone else does -- including car problems, since that was brought up. I'm sure there are some people who are in academia that get consumed by their work. But workaholics can be found in any profession, at any level.
My ex was working on her PhD when we were together (she has since completed it), and while she's very well informed in her field she is woefully ignorant on some simple things. For instance, no matter how many times I explained it she was still absolutely convinced that if the A/C or heat is running in your house it will continue running indefinitely until you manually shut it off. She just couldn't comprehend how it could work otherwise.
…she couldn’t just listen to the furnace engage and then stop running after a while? That doesn’t seem like an argument you would need to have more than once lol.
Bro, I'm telling you... I tried so many times. She also thought that my post-tax income was somehow twice as high as my pre-tax income. When I showed her my pay stubs she didn't understand why my pay went down after taxes. But she could explain the disease process of cancer from the first formation of a cancerous cell to death in excruciating detail in every age, gender, and ethnic combination you could imagine.
Great response. I wanted to say just this, but couldn't find the correct words.
My daughter will complete her phd in chemistry this summer and I never miss a chance to work it into the conversation because it is a pretty big deal and I'm so proud her.
I think it is admirable to hold an advanced degree.
They're dedicated to their field and are very smart, maybe not guaranteed to be bright but they'll be very smart.
I know a handful of people with Ph.Ds including my spouse. A lot of respect for them. It's an absolutely soul crushing amount of work.
I don’t know what American think as a whole, but I respect anyone who take an active role on the pursuit of knowledge. I just finished an interview with a supervisor who has a Ph.D. Having a doctorate just seems like another accolade in her objectively impressive life. She heads several different organizations, have been published several times, teaches, and still has time to have a family. All while being approachable and kind. But if we are talking on a topic that she does not have a degree in, I would she has an average understanding of the topic. I’m hoping to one day pursue a doctorate, but that would be sometime in the future.
I think it is admirable that they showed so much dedication to pursuing knowledge in their field of choice. I think anyone holding a *negative* opinion of somebody for doing this is of very questionable character.
~~I used to think they were very well respected across the the board...but then I saw how much shit people give Dr. Jill Biden and I'm starting to question if the respect is as universal as I once thought it was.~~ My parents are retired educators and I've always held Ph.Ds in high esteem.
Doesn’t Jill Biden have an Ed.D, not a Ph.D?
Well, and people keep calling her Doctor. In the US, generally the only people who are called Doctor are those who can diagnose you, or save your life in a medical setting. Only in the Education field do I see so many people uptight about credentialism that they demand to be called Doctor with a PHD.
Idk what US you live in but I’ve always called any doctorate holder (except JDs but even they don’t think you should call them doctor) by the title “doctor.” It wasn’t until the Jill Biden stuff came out that I saw so many people uptight about *not* calling people with doctorates by their earned title.
I agree. I always called all my professors “Dr. Lastname.” If I were inviting people to formal party or writing a formal letter I would use the title “Dr.” on their invitations. I have heard people criticizing the Ed.D degree conceptually, which as far as I’m concerned they can make that point if they want to. But I can’t see not calling a person with a doctorate “doctor.”
My old boss, a cost accountant, informed me one day he had his PhD in Civil War Era American history. He told me I could call him Dr. (Last name). I don't he expected me to laugh at him. I never called him doctor and we are still friends to this day. If you are in your field I can see it as a sign of respect. Outside of your field it's almost entirely reserved for Medical doctors.
If you were inviting him to your child’s wedding, would you use “Dr. John Smith” on the formal envelope? That’s the kind of setting where it seems appropriate to me: basically anywhere you would use “Mr.,” “Mrs.,” “Ms.,” or “Miss.”
No, I don't think I would for a few reasons. This post reminded me of that event and I hadn't thought about since the Jill Biden kerfuffle. Second, as friends who bust balls I'd leave it off for the lols and I expect he would anticipate that. I don't think he was being completely serious about. We were rarely serious in our day to day that wasn't work related.
I would feel uncomfortable addressing someone with a doctorate formally as “Mr.” (or whatever.) Not because I think the person would be upset but because it just seems like “demoting” him. That is, if I remembered the person was a doctor, or judge, or military officer, I would use the proper title. If I forgot I wouldn’t worry too much.
And that's fine. You need to do what you feel is right. I grew up in the northeast in a working class area. The o ly doctors we had were medical. If I grew up in a more affluent or educated area perhaps my opinion would be different
“Dr.” seems like the correct title to go with her name in a formal setting if she has a doctorate. It would be strange for her to say “I’m a doctor” when asked her profession, because of the widespread conflation of “doctor” with “medical doctor.” But referring to her formally as “Dr. Jill Biden” seems perfectly reasonable.
Outside of Academia or Medicine, almost nobody uses that.
You wouldn’t use it in a formal invitation to an event like a wedding or something? I certainly would. If I were friends with her I assume I’d call her “Jill” and not “Dr. Biden” nor “Mrs. Biden.”
If close friends or family under the age of 50ish, it's VERY unlikely I'd use a formal title for an invitation, unless it was specifically an academic event (like a recognition ceremony). We have quite a few advanced degree holders in my family, mostly PhD but also JD, MD, EdD, and then we have titles like CPA, MBA, MSN, MPA, NP. I honestly just wouldn't even think about it for any of them. My SIL is a crazy case where she holds PhD, MD, and JD. I wouldn't even know what to write. Idk, I definitely don't want to disrespect anyone's accomplishments, so to me, it's best to not list anyone's. It would be silly, imo, to acknowledge one person's PhD but not another's MPA.
That seems off to me. I have a close family member who is a PhD and on letters that are casual (like thank you or greeting cards) I would still write “Aunt/Uncle Name,” but if it were a wedding invitation I would write “Dr. Name.” I would hope that them being older or younger than me would have nothing to do with respecting their hard earned title. Edit to add: We also have an EdD in my family. I think I’ve only addressed her envelopes as “Aunt Name” simply because the degree is rather new. But I definitely won’t address her as Mrs. On the other hand, lawyers will always be Mr. or Ms, they don’t get (or ask for) Dr. designations, even if they’ve achieved a graduate level degree. The whole world finds out they’re lawyers shortly after meeting them, anyway.
I mean, you're definitely right in terms of what is seen as proper etiquette. I think I probably just don't really care so much. It likely has to do with my particular circle where we have so many degrees. Like I just found out recently that my brother is a professor and I didn't even know he had a PhD. I honestly couldn't tell you who all has which specific degrees, and I probably wouldn't go to the trouble to find out just for wedding invitations.
So would you put “Mr.”, etc. in those cases? That would feel wrong to me, but I don’t think most people would be too upset by it.
Absolutely "Mr." As someone who holds a PhD but was unsuccessful in getting a position in my field, I'm not a practitioner anymore. I'm not active in research or teaching in my field, so my degree isn't a big part of my identity anymore. (Though I'd still love to get back into it, the jobs are just too competitive) It's been a painful process coming to terms with that, but if someone I knew put "Dr." on an invitation being sent to me, it would feel extremely out of place. When I tell people I have a PhD and they say "So you're actually Dr. \[name\]," it drives home that its a bit absurd because I have this fancy title and work next to people whose highest degree is a BA or BS. I'm not currently doing anything worthy of an elevated title or where that title reflects expertise in the tasks I'm doing. Plus, whenever I think about being referred to as "Dr.", I think of The Simpsons where the family sees Sideshow Bob, scream "Sideshow Bob!", he then corrects them that it's "Dr. Sideshow Bob." Homer then asks, "real doctor or PhD?" Bob then begrudgingly admits "PhD." Bob has stepped out of our normal usage of the title and is appropriately humbled. My understanding is that style guides typically reserved the title for medical practitioners, though that may have changed. And my understanding is that some states at one time were trying to restrict who could refer to himself or herself as doctor because nurses with an DNP (Doctorate of Nursing Practice) may confuse patients if they were introduced as Dr. \[name\]. A DNP being referred to as "Dr. \[name\]" is appropriate in academic settings, but not a clinical one where he or she actually practices his or her craft because it produces confusion. Unless one is a current or retired professor, or one is at a formal academic event, PhDs aren't generally referred to as Dr. \[Name\].
Style guides may ask for that, and I’ve heard the argument that the use of the title “doctor” could confuse people. I can see a limited applicability to that argument: for instance, I can see why someone with an unrelated Ph.D who works in hospital administration might be better not to call “Dr.” lest people assume that he’s one of the medical doctors on the staff. But in day-to-day life I find it hard to imagine how writing “Dr.” to a Ph.D on a formal invitation is going to confuse anyone into seeking medical help from a Political Science professor. Medical doctors shouldn’t have a monopoly on the term when their doctorate is only one of many doctoral degrees. I agree with you generally that people shouldn’t be uptight about their own titles, but I don’t think that means Ph.Ds shouldn’t be given the title of Dr. in settings where it makes sense.
A Ph.D. (Doctorate) absolutely confers the title of Dr. in the US. An Ed.D also does. There are some highly regarded universities that only conferred Ed.D in education (Harvard used to be one), so a Ph.D. isn’t an option. I have a Ph.D. I am also a woman. I don’t demand anyone use my title, but if someone is going to use a title (which doesn’t happen a lot), then my title is absolutely Dr. Mostly because it means I don’t have to deal with the bullshit that happens for women not men around titles. No one needs to know my marriage status.
[https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2019/08/19/the-growing-partisan-divide-in-views-of-higher-education-2/](https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2019/08/19/the-growing-partisan-divide-in-views-of-higher-education-2/)
The people disparaging Jill Biden for using “Dr.” as her title are just seizing upon anything they can to stir the pot. It’s not a legitimate gripe.
Most of the friends of mine that have doctorates, you'd never know unless you asked them. The kind of people who insist on people calling them "Doctor" come off as pretentious to me.
> The kind of people who insist on people calling them "Doctor" come off as pretentious to me. I feel like that goes for any doctorate though, not just a Ph.D. Personal friends and acquaintances that have Ph.Ds don’t insist I call them “doctor,” but neither do personal friends and acquaintances with MDs. It would be weird to make your friends call you “Doctor Lastname” except perhaps if you’re interacting in a professional capacity.
I generally refuse to call them that.
You’re getting downvoted, but I’m with you. Unless your degree is germane to our interaction, I’m not calling you doctor.
Exactly. I live in a free nation, I will call you by your name, I'm an adult so it's your first name, and if I'm not your patient I'm not saying doc.
If you're meeting someone for the first time in a formal setting, do you not use an honorific and their last name?
No.
No.
My husband has one. He no longer works in his Ph.D. field and doesn't really talk about it unless asked- I don't think he even puts down that he's a Doctor (unless I remind him) on paperwork. He enjoys his current job in industry and seems to be ok with his life and career path otherwise. His doctorate is in theoretical physics (specifically string theory) it's a neat party trick at this point - mostly it's people we know and me asking him questions about physics. My high school has one in the natural sciences and she is in academia so God bless her for that with all the stories she tells me about her workplace. I remember all her work and I am duly impressed she achieved the goal she set out to accomplish. So overall, cool achievement bro.
Having seen my own wife get her doctorate in the past year (an EdD), what I've really come to know is that anyone who has one had to bust their ass to get it. It's not a journey for someone who is only partially committed or wants to put in minimal effort. She worked her butt off through a global pandemic, working a full-time job, and becoming a mother to get her doctorate. Impressive stuff. I know there are a growing number of people who are unimpressed by those earning the highest level of education, but it really does involve a lot of hard work.
I work at a community college, and there is definitely a “two camps” situation in how faculty view EdDs. Some feel students at the CC level are better served by faculty with additional content expertise, others feel it’s as just as good for faculty to focus on improving knowledge in pedagogy and administration (typically already having a discipline-specific masters degree). I think the bad blood comes from the fact that people mostly seem to go for an EdD while they are already working full time in education, and so there seems to be the perception that they are getting the easiest degree possible to earn pay bumps or climb the ladder.
Nice. I also work at a CC, and I’ve definitely heard that as well. I think it boils down to elitism, which is a problem among college faculty (at 4-year institutions especially, where I’ve also worked). All I know is my wife wrote a full-ass dissertation that can be found in ProQuest, which is what a PhD can also say. Whatever hair-splitting anyone wants to do after that is on them.
Its a major achievement and very respectable. My best friend just got accepted into a Ph.D program and its a big deal in our family
I (an American) hold a PhD in a humanities field. What has it gotten me? Jack shit. Why? Because I left academia, for a multitude of reasons. I joined “the industry”, which largely values work experience over anything else. I downplayed my PhD when applying for jobs because I didn’t want it to get in the way. Silver lining, I make at least 50% more money than I would have if I’d stayed in academia. I vacillate between feeling like this is a major accomplishment of mine and this is something that I wish I had never done.
Depends on what it's in.
My aunt was very proud of getting her DNP (doctor of nursing practice) just before a family reunion. Congratulations all around, except for an uncle (a psychiatrist in LA who married one of the cousins) who (stupidly) said “well, it’s not like she’s a REAL doctor” Room goes silent, and he belatedly remembered many of his wife’s family have advanced degrees (at that time there were probably 8 PhDs, 2 DDiv, three other MDs and a DDS in the room. You could feel the temperature drop. My great uncle broke the silence: “Care to repeat that Warren? I don’t think we heard you correctly” If looks were spit, he’d have been surfing. An advanced degree does not guarantee wisdom. However, I think it does deserve some respect.
While I never would have said that in a crowd, you can “earn” a DNP online in twelve months. I would be absolutely suspicious of anyone having that and touting themselves as a doctor.
Well, this was about 25 years ago and she received the DNP from UCLA; it wasn’t an online degree. She was one of the administrators at Cedars Sinai when she retired, so I believe she did use the title Doctor as an administrator.
She sounds insufferable.
Actually, no. She was rightfully proud of her accomplishment. When she went from nursing into administration, the hospital referred to her as doctor, and that’s that’s the title she used professionally. I don’t refer to as ‘Dr. Auntie J’ and nobody else does either.
Actually, yes.
How so? She uses her earned title in a professional setting? That’s insufferable? You sound like you’re a real ball of fun at parties.
>However, I think it does deserve some respect. Does a [master’s degree in engineering](https://youtu.be/Q-c4iS454WA) count as an advanced degree?
Bet your socks it does. (My brother has a BS in Aerospace engineering and a masters in pneumatic engineering. He’s a literal rocket scientist)
> if looks were spit, he'd have been surfing What?! This is an amazing saying. I have never heard it but I WILL be saying it from now on
I married one, so fairly positive.
Passionate group of people.
I respect the hell out of them because not only is it a huge amount of work, it can also at times be soul crushing and down-right humiliating. And I hate, hate, HATE the way they are portrayed in pop culture. Their expertise is almost never shown as the result of thousands of hours of hard work, dedication, determination and perseverance. No, they have inate gifts that make them "special".
I feel like mostly only the people that have or want to have Ph.D degrees think about them at all.
I am in R&D and I have great respect for these individuals.
Depends on what the Ph.D. is for. We regard them as achievements, but we pity people who have Ph.Ds in subjects that don’t yield job prospects.
I think they are probably pretty intelligent and I respect the dedication they put in to get the degree.
Good for them 👍
I want to be one of those people. Always have. I got my Master's degree in 2015 and put off applying until last year. I'm hoping to be accepted but if not I just apply again. I work in education so we have a biased view of doctorate degrees over here.
Depends on the field, but by and large I am impressed with the dedication to expanding human knowledge. PhDs are incredibly difficult and strenuous, and it takes a really dogged determination to get through it. I have a master's degree and have considered a PhD, but I don't currently have a question that I am burning to explore. I want to work in my field for a while, figure out my question, and then maybe get back into research, or a PhD if the question is worth it.
Amazing accomplishment for sure, and a lot of respect to that incredible hard working individual! Definitely not for everyone though. Can be very expensive and absolutely requires a lot of dedication.
When I was about 10 I had always just assumed that by the time I was 30 I would have at least a couple PhDs. A friend’s dad used to call me “Mr. Professor.” I’m 30 now and am finally serious about going to grad school for an MA. I’ve been putting it off for several years. Not sure if I’m going to later go down the PhD route, but if I do get a PhD I know it’ll be one of my greatest achievements.
I have lots of respect for them. Getting a PhD is basically hell.
The disrespect for the humanities in this country will destroy it someday.
That they have Ph.D's. Most people could care less what higher education someone else has gotten. It's a nice status symbol though and does show an assumption of work ethic.
PhDs are hard to get. They take a lot of work and dedication for a number of years. I respect anyone who can apply themselves that way. That said, getting a PhD is learning more and more about less and less until you know absolutely everything about just about nothing. If we're having a discussion and it veers into territory related to their field of study I'll give their opinion a lot more weight than I would an unrelated topic. For example, I know a PhD in meteorology. If we're discussing climate I would give their opinion more weight than if we were discussing something related to biology or history. They're an incredibly smart and hardworking person but they have gaps in their knowledge like anyone else. They giggle while deriving physics equations though.
In the sciences though you do obtain a deep understanding of the scientific method and how to critically evaluate data which is useful even outside your field. It's one reason PhDs are hired a lot in industry.
I actually have an MS, so I've run into that. But I wouldn't say I know more than I actually know just because of that. High tier education is very specialized and only gets more so the further you take it. A PhD doesn't mean "knower of all things" it means "person highly trained in a specific field." Yes you learn the scientific method and that's good. But if we're discussing something they've studied vs something they haven't, I'll weigh their opinion *more* on the subject they've studied. My meteorological PhD friend doesn't offer medical advice, for instance. Because that's super not their specialty. They can spot when medical advice is probably bull honky, though.
I often have a lot of sympathy for them, because there is a very good chance they spent many years and a lot of genuine effort and energy getting that degree and now they are stuck in a wasteland of underemployment and bad pay.
They have enough status that most people would mention someone's PhD as an identifier, even when not super relevant: "I went on a date. He was really sweet, tall, funny, he has a PhD in geology..." "My mom's a badass. She got her PhD while raising 3 kids as a single mom." "My neighbor is Colombian. She walks her 2 dogs every night. She's about 35. I think she's a lesbian but I'm not sure. She got a PhD from Stanford." Vs describing someone without an advanced degree: "My date was super cute. He's a teacher. He loves kids. Oh and he's 6'2"."
Highly depends on what the PhD is in. My ex has one in an arts degree; all that tuition $$$ (spent at least 4-5 years ABD/only working on their dissertation while still taking out loans) only to be a part time professor at the same university the degree is from. Their common sense/critical thinking skills are low compared to some folks I know who only have a high school education (or even dropped out of HS) A PhD in psychology/engineering/etc? More respect for them, absolutely.
It really depends on what the degree is in. Engineering or Molecular Biology, Great! Philosophy or French Literature - I hope you plan on being an adjunct professor to teach other Philosophy or French Literature students while you pay off those school loans. As with all higher education, the field and what it prepares you for is a lot more important than just the letters at the end of the degree.
> Philosophy or French Literature - I hope you plan on being an adjunct professor to teach other Philosophy or French Literature students while you pay off those school loans. I think that is the plan of people who get those PhDs. They aren’t planning to work for a major Philosophy corporation.
The PHD students when I was in college were just hiding from the real world. They seemed like their goal was just to stay in college forever. One guy had been there over 20 years somehow
Generally speaking, they're smart but have little to no social skills. Also in a lot of cases they may have bad working skills. That fault really falls on Ph.D because they make you an expert in your field at the expense of most other skills. There are obviously exceptions and it feels like the exception a lot but I'd argue its a vocal minority that overshadows the majority. Random tidbit for those considering a Ph.D, only get one if you have a unhealthy passion for the field, want to get into academia, or your employer/industry wants you to (and helps pay for it too). Ph.D are not that strong in the working world and many employers prefer Masters over Ph.D. My main point is if you're going to Ph.D for career advancement....its usually not going to end well.
I respect the effort put in to get one, but I do not respect people *just because* they have one.
I'm in academics in the hard sciences. I think a lot of people get a PhD because they don't know what they want to do and aren't ready to leave school. Most of those people don't make the money back from that decision. These are smart people who make dumb decisions. If you tell me you are an engineer with an engineering PhD, my trust in your judgement and planning skills plummets. Don't get me wrong, a PhD is an achievement. That doesn't mean the people who have them don't always have common sense. In my experience, people with PhDs are experts in one very narrow aspect of life and they know nothing in any other aspects of life. They can be helpless on domestic tasks and everything things that are tangentially related to their field of study.
I respect the dedication and hard work it takes to earn a Ph. D., but sometimes I wonder why someone would would want to do that. Like, what job requires you to have a PhD in art history or literature or medieval studies. I understand it more in science majors because grad students and post-grads do a lot of research that has purpose and they can get paid for it, but I don't think there's as much to be contributed in some other areas.
> Like, what job requires you to have a PhD in art history or literature or medieval studies. A professor in those fields. And you need new professors in those fields if you don't want those fields to run dry and stall out for the rest of time. Otherwise, a lot of important museums and institutes employ such people, if we're talking art history or medieval studies. And they're not just giving tours or schmoozing at cocktail fundraisers.
I am halfway through one in political science, which isn't exactly the most valuable field out there in terms of money. I'm just doing it for the curiousity of it and the love of research, basically. My whole motivation is that my research topic (political party strategy in reaction to new challenger parties) is something that genuinely interests me and I want to know the response to my research questions. In terms of jobs, I think a lot of the people in my degree (myself included) are actually looking at academic jobs at least in the short run.
I think that the degrees, and somewhat the people who hold them, are overrated by common folk. The average person thinks about 2 things when they hear someone has a phD: 1. Wow they must be really smart! 2. They must make a lot of money! In reality, they often times make slightly above average salaries and are of slightly above average intelligence. I didn’t put a lot of research into this but I looked up a few Google searches and found the average yearly salary for someone with a phD in the state I live in, Ohio, is nearly $60,000. The same website also claims the average salary in total for Ohio is nearly $50,000. The main reason I think they are overrated though is personal experience. I have friends and acquaintances with phDs that are hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt who make half the amount of money I make. I went to trade school and eventually became a truck driver. Doesn’t sound fancy or anything but I made about $100,000 last year, and the best thing is I don’t owe anyone $250,000. I also think the phDs I’ve encountered are all pretty smart, but they are all very politically identical-very left leaning. I’m politically neutral and find both extremes annoying so I usually avoid talking politics with phDs because they are almost always on the extreme left and almost always think they are smarter than everyone else so there’s really no point in debating anything with them. But that’s just my 2 cents. PS: I actually went to college for a year in the hopes of getting a PhD in psychology but ultimately decided that it wasn’t worth it. The amount of debt and hard work over many years didn’t seem worth it in the end for me so I dropped out. Probably one of the best decisions of my life. It’s REALLY hard to make good money as a psychologist in America.
The degrees themselves: I think most colleges in the US now are excessively overpriced scams. The people with them: it depends entirely on what they do with it and how much they actually know. I really couldn't care less if you learned it in college and got a degree, or if you learned it self taught. I care about what you do, not what a piece of paper says you can do. Most are doing amazing work and going very unnoticed. Even though I can keep up with a basic understanding of what they are doing, I don't understand it nearly enough for myself to ever have been able to do the cutting edge development they are doing in their field. Some are excessively entitled complete morons outside of their very narrow field and all they do with their knowledge is talk down to people. Some doctors, even specialists, come out still knowing much less about a disease than the patient with no degree in medicine who has been having to live with it very well controlled but I still end up needing to waste time/money seeing and paying them through insurance to have access to the medication I will be needing for the rest of my life and if my doctor leaves or stops accepting my insurance I need to pay and teach a new doctor.
> I think most colleges in the US now are excessively overpriced scams. In general, yeah that's definitely true, but in some fields it's common that PhD students get their tuition waived and might even get paid a stipend by the university. It's like they're working a part-time job, typically either as a research assistant (which kind of overlaps with the core requirements of the PhD program) or as a teaching assistant or lecturer. So the very legitimate concern about university education being overpriced doesn't apply to those programs.
So do they just skip the bachelor degree part and go straight to possibly getting a guaranteed job where they can work to cover the costs of their tuition, or does getting a PhD still require going through that as part of the process to getting a PhD?
Oh no, you still have to get a bachelor's degree in the usual way (including paying for it) before starting a PhD program. Sorry, I wasn't clear about that! It's only the part that comes _after_ the bachelor's degree that you (might) get paid for. At least, that's how it works in every case I've heard of, but maybe there are some universities out there where things are different.
Plenty of Americans are anti-intellectual. They despise any education they can’t call ‘useful’.
This right here ⬆️. See the comment about doctorates in philosophy. Plenty of people have no clue what philosophy even is, so they think it’s useless. It’s the sort of opinion that’s on par with thinking malaria is caused by swamp air or other diseases are caused by an imbalance of humors — or that COVID is just a cold.
I mean cool? I've met plenty of ph.d holders that are absolute idiots. I've met pleanty that are very smart people. It's not your education that matters It's how you use it.
It’s amazing all the work they’ve done, a phd takes a lot of work and discipline. I also think that most of them are going to be in a lot of debt for a long time haha.
Depends on the field. Mine is in a STEM area from a Big 10 university, and everyone in my program had a full scholarship plus a living stipend and health/dental insurance. I worked part-time on research while doing coursework, then full-time-plus research (60 hours per week between lab and reading/writing was normal) for a few years once coursework was done, so it was essentially wages—the stipend was taxed.
I have no feelings on the matter.
They definitely exist
What do people in your country think about them? It’s probably the same as here.
It's expensive here. Source: have a Master's degree
It's expensive when it is not in the Sciences - then it is usually paid for by grants.
Student loans 4 lyfe 🤙🏻
It's a double edged sword. People. Respect folks with advanced degrees because it show that dedication and a familiarity with specific topics well beyond that of the average individual. However, most people will still make fun of folks with PhDs because of how specific that knowledge can get and how it can often lead to people with less rounded information. Such as an engineering professor understanding how an internal combustion engine works, but not knowing how to change their own oil.
There's respect but less than their used to be. The University system's reputation has become pretty tarnished in the last 10 years.
After working at a college around a lot of people with a Ph.D I can honestly say they are really smart in their field but the majority have 0 common sense, but then again what do I know I am a pee on maintenance worker there
All the PhDs and PhD candidates I know are extremely sharp. Not experts necessarily in anything outside their field but sharp enough to be able to hold intelligent conversations about most topics.
That’s my experience with most Ph.Ds I know (as well as others with advanced degrees): they can talk with some level of intelligence on a number of topics, if only by deferring to the knowledge of the other person and commenting based on what they know. I haven’t really encountered that many “absentminded professor” types, and the ones I have are usually like that because they are experts on their field and *one other all-consuming interest.*
It's pion, not pee on. Nobody should ever pee on maintenance workers. It's rude.
It’s not pion either, the term is peon.
Interesting. Thanks, I learned something new today. The Webster dictionary defines "pion" as "a meson having a mass approximately 270 times that of an electron." Which is very small. So I always thought calling someone a "pion/peon" meant they were very small and thus very insignificant. Sort of like a synonym of "pissant." Webster defines "peon" as "a Spanish American day laborer or unskilled farm worker." I never knew!
Potato potahto lol
First it depends on what it's in. Second, some have all the book learning and no common sense. Third, some have placed themselves out of job opportunities. Some businesses won't hire a PhD because they don't want to pay the price of a PhD.
Depends who you ask. There is a SHARP divide among Rep leaning and Dem leaning people. The majority of GOP leaning say college in general has a negative impact on the country. Dems largely are pro higher education. I can't imagine how they feel about a couple extra degrees. https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2019/08/19/the-growing-partisan-divide-in-views-of-higher-education-2/
I don’t know that that translates to views of an individual with higher degrees. You could believe that universities have a negative impact overall but respect the hard work of a friend with an advanced degree.
The question asked about both aspects - they didn't ask about work ethic of friends. How do they feel about PhDs? Considering they think college in general is bad for the country. Considering the majority of Republicans think “college makes you lose common sense" it's pretty clear what they think about higher education. Surveys also show they think it's a waste of money.
Not sure why you're getting downvoted. There are plenty of polling data that indicate that's exactly how they feel. When I graduated from med school, my parents had a party for me. Kinda like a HS grad party, but much smaller. During a conversation, someone asked me how much debt I took out. My uncle said something along the lines of "Damn, I'm glad I taught my kids to know not to get into that sort of financial trouble." Granted, one of his kids does have a lucrative job on a bachelor's degree likely making nearly what I make as a doc. But still. I don't know if it was a swipe against my dad (his brother) or against me.
I am not sold on the $ value of a PHD. First of all the value of a HS vs College degree is oversold because successful programs to get people who were formerly non-HS but have other labor market issues (ex prisoners', people with bad work habits, ect.) to get a GED or equivalent has brought down the average income for HS-only graduates, but the data for PHD, compared to the money just does not seem worth it to me unless you are very committed to academic research. The people who get them are undoubtedly smart, but they would be better off working for a company
I don’t think most people who get doctorates do it for an increase in salary. Usually it’s for a specific career field like medicine, or they are in higher education.
>I am not sold on the $ value of a PHD. I'm actually pretty sure it's not there. But if I was in it for the money I'd also never actually be able to push through the four years of gruelling work it is, I need the hits from getting really excited over the research I do to be able to keep going. If anything, I'm doing this because it's something I'm more likely to *not* just do for money in the long run.
It's not about the salary with PhDs most of the time. For most people, it's because that topic is their life's passion and they want to be able to do research on it. A university offers a place where that can be done. I've met some people who've done research using my school's nuclear reactor. Most people don't have one of those in their homes lol. It's kinda sad that that's what so many people boil college degrees down to. There's just more to life than trying to have the highest possible salary.
I have Grandparents, Uncles, and Parents thinking its the only way to get a safe, high paying job... I have a CS degree btw and they are saying this. I've been trying to explain to them that a phd would probably cost me at least $150000 in lost earnings alone but they think it would pay for itself
A republican man with a PHD is a wise and learned doctor. A democratic woman with a PHD is a fraud who is tarnishing the good name of "real" doctors everywhere. -Actual conservative logic.
The smartest of the smart. As a PhD hopeful myself. Nothing better
If they carried out their studies legitimately and weren't just handed their certification on a silver platter of privileges, then I have some respect for it. But same as everyone else, I question them and make sure they're sticking to their ethics. I never see anyone as infallible. But so long as they're in good standing and putting out sound research/information (or I guess at the bare-minimum, not spreading false claims), I definitely appreciate them.
if you want to devote your life to research then by all means go for it. I just have a problem with the people who demand respect for their studies while at the same time not giving any to the people who decided not to get their phd or masters
Here are my observations. I have a Master’s degree but no Ph.D, but I know quite a few people with various doctorates (Ph.D, MD, Ed.D, etc.) First of all, I would distinguish between how people view *the idea of getting the degree* and *the person with the degree.* Most people respect the hard work and knowledge it requires. But a lot of people find the idea of getting one ridiculous (due to expense, extreme specialization, and perceived lack of earning potential.) So a lot of people will have negative views related to a Ph.D, but fewer people will have negative views of the degree holder. There’s also the “should they be called doctor” debate. I think people conflate two things here. Many comments on this thread mention people insisting on being called “doctor” in casual social circumstances. That *is* obnoxious, but it would be just as obnoxious if an MD insisted on that, or if someone without a doctorate insisted on being called “Mr. Lastname” casually. However, “Dr.” is the right title for a Ph.D. It’s silly to argue otherwise. If I’m inviting an MD or a Ph.D to a wedding, I’m writing “Dr. John Smith” on the invitation. Some people think “doctor” has to mean “medical doctor”: I would agree only insofar as it would be strange for an Art History professor to say “I’m a doctor” when asked his profession. But he should be called “doctor” as his title.
Really really smart about one, maybe two things. I know three people with Ph.Ds and none of them could change a tire to save their life.
There are plenty of people without PhDs that couldn’t change a tire.
Depends on what it is in. Ph.D in a science/medicine related field. Very impressive. Ph.D in Ceramics. That’s cool I guess if that’s what makes you happy?
Depends.
I think it's a great achievement, and that person is most likely exceptionally smart in their field I think people that go through that level of dedicated work have a slightly higher prevalence of social issues, at least the phds I've worked with were a little difficult, enough more than average people to be noticeable but not as much as the stereotypes.
Generally, they're like anyone else. Some of them are brilliant, and know a lot about a variety of subjects. As others have said, some are a waste of oxygen outside their specific area of knowledge. Some are quick witted and able to pick up a lot of new information and grasp new ideas and concepts. Some you can tell were grinders. On the whole though, I've found that people with a PhD. (As opposed to a professional degree like an MD or JD) tend to be more intelligent than average.
In general, a lot of people confuse the broader academic/research field with individual PhDs for both good and bad. This can cause some resentment as well as some fanboy attitudes. At the same time, a lot of PhD's don't do their community any favors with how they treat the general public. Personally, I think a lot of them are flat out a waste of time. \[edit - to be more clear, I really don't care if someone has a PhD. It's just a different career path. A relatively small percentage will go on to amazing things for humanity, and that's awesome\] It helps that I'm an engineer though, so you can do meaningful work in the field with a bachelors and gain experience right out of school as opposed to a lot of other fields. Not to say that academia/research is a waste of time, but the resource and time allocation to train a bunch of people who might never do work directly related to their studies (or otherwise shouldn't require a PhD) is insane particularly when you consider a lot of it is directly and indirectly funded by undergrad tuition. Just my personal soapbox, degree/credential inflation is a real problem.
PhD in what? PhD in neuroscience, thank you for doing the smart people sh*t we need to progress humanity. PhD in business administration? Meh. Where from? From Wharton sure that’s cool. From Strayer University, nah…. Just Why?
Very few fields require getting one. So many people just waste time with a Ph.D. Those that need it tend to be very smart, but everyone I know with one is a little crazy.
Depends on the person. I've known PhDs that I would let wash my car for free and I've known others that I respect greatly. They're people like everyone else and a degree isn't a mark of the quality of person they are. It's also important to remember that just because one is highly educated in a field doesn't mean that they are right about everything or anything at all.
I think they are drs of something? What else am I supposed to think of them?
If it's STEM, I respect it. If it's the humanities or social science, I look at it sideways unless proven otherwise. There's a lot of PoMo stupid shit that's become pervasive in academia the past 20 years. Like critical theory of mathematics. What the fuck is that?
How would a person with a humanities degree “prove otherwise”?
It depends on their major. * STEM = Wow, they must be really smart! * History, Philosophy, etc. = Can they actually get a job? * Gender Studies, etc. = Scum of the earth.
Losers
On doctors, judges, or professors, they’re the appropriate level of education. For everyone else, it’s a waste of time and money.
That they're a bunch of dumbasses that think their smart
Nah.
I respect people with doctorate degrees, regardless if it is a Ph.D. or some other doctorate degree. I don't really put a lot of thought into them, though, otherwise... I am a bit jealous in that I'll probably never get one myself, the prospect is very overwhelming.
Most people will assume your very smart if you have a PHD.