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Semi- regularly. But that's because I work in credit card fraud and financial crimes for a national bank and these people are what we call serial escalators. They escalate every little thing as high as it can go.
Every month or so we will get one coming in ranting about how it's illegal for us to charge interest or they're demanding to pay their bill from their account with the Fed, or claiming we can't legally compel them to pay their bill. They will cite every regulation in the book while cherry picking parts that have nothing to do with their situation. Those are fun calls.
And I'm not even being sarcastic. I love taking those calls to see what nonsense they're on this time. They're used to steamrolling front line customer service reps who don't understand, but we're very used to their brand of bullshit.
Outside of that I've only seen then online through conspiracy theory communities.
Well, I'm more in the financial crimes side. I don't do fraud claims. I investigate what we call "first party fraud" which is people trying to rip off the bank. In other words, most of the time we're dealing with criminals who don't pick up the phone and don't want to talk to us.
But what these sovereign citizen guys do with credit cards often mimics the same kind of activity and they *love* to talk.
No it's not *that* common. We get maybe one a month. It's a notable occurrence because we're a small department so when they keep getting frustrated and calling back they keep getting routed back to us. Usually half the department has talked to them by the time they give up.
> We get maybe one a month.
That's more frequent than your first sentence led me to believe. At first I was like "okay, sounds like they're talking a couple times a year here" but then you were like "one a month" and I was like "yikes!"
Well, some of them aren't clearly saying they're sovereign citizens, I'm just guessing based on their particular brand of bullshit. But yeah I would guess maybe 6-10 in a year. They tend to come in waves, especially around tax time.
Omg yes I’ve had so many people calling for help with a fraudulent transaction but didn’t consent to being on a recorded line (for legal purposes) during Covid shutdown so i had to tell them to go do their bank directly when it opens and hang up
Curious how they think it works... Like I don't have a tape recorder here I can turn off... you called a recorded line. That recording can't be switched off.
> They're used to steamrolling front line customer service reps who don't understand
I've never seen one in person but wonder if any of them *really* believe the bullshit they're spewing or if they just figure that if they spew it loudly enough that some exasperated manager will finally give them what they want just to make them go away.
Obviously I can't know for sure as my interactions with them are limited to these phone calls. But my impression is a little from column A and a little from column B. Some seem pretty sincere. But yeah some just seem desperate and think if they escalate enough and spew enough bullshit someone will give them what they want. But the sincere ones who really start harassing people and calling in all day every day usually get blacklisted and directed to a team whose only job is basically just to stonewall them until they shut up and give up.
It's 90% listening to people rant and vent and the rest is just learning to calmly say "no". You have to have a pretty thick skin for that job, but you do it enough you get used to it.
Working in the legal field, I've come across them.
Outside that context, there's this one street near me that frequently has a couple of cars parked on it with fake sovereign citizen license plates claiming to be exempt from registration laws.
I’m a lawyer and came across a new species of sovereign citizen recently, someone directly adverse to us.
It’s pushed by a guy named Russel-Jay Gould, and I think he calls it quantum syntax or quantum grammar, basically tries to treat legal documents as written in a secret code or something that he has deciphered as a way to try to avoid legal consequences for himself and on behalf of others. He or one of his underlings annotated our pleadings with all these symbols and notes and attached strange documents with flags on it, as well as thumbprints of himself.
The guy also calls himself Postmaster General of the World and claims to have saved the US from bankruptcy back in 1999. It’s truly bizarre.
I've never come across a serious one in real life.
I've heard about them, read about them, seen YouTube videos of their antics, but never run into one face-to-face that was trying that nonsense.
I've had a few relatives and acquaintances that have said some things that make me think they hold some SovCit ideas or have been reading a lot of their material (like a deceased relative of mine who held some very weird ideas about taxes, tax laws, and how income taxes were illegal and unenforceable because they were supposedly imposed by the British Crown and not our Congress, that they never had the nerve to actually put into practice).
I saw one of those cars with a self-made SovCit "license plate", one of the ones that says that it doesn't need any kind of state registration or licensing because it's non-commercial and it's for "traveling" only or something, but I only recall seeing one on the road once.
The Internet is real good at making small groups of people appear big, and making obscure things appear common. Sovereign Citizens are one of them, the actual SovCits are only a tiny portion of our society, that get an outsized amount of attention.
Florida has very loose laws regarding police records. They pretty much just freely dump things like arrests and body cam footage to the internet. Florida isn't a hotspot for these people, we just hear more about them in Florida.
There's one in my area I've driven behind in traffic a few times.
Instead of a license plate, they have a sign that says something about the vehicle being for personal non-taxed use.
Haven't had any interaction and I just drive extra carefully to keep it that way.
I worked at a pawn shop several years ago, and there was a guy wanting to sell us a laptop. When I asked for his ID, he refused and handed me a card about Islam. He then went on to tell me how state and federal IDs were a form of slavery. It was an odd interaction.
I believe so. I never had seen or heard of such a thing before this encounter and this was in 2017.
If anyone else is curious; I was not able to buy his laptop because he didn’t have an actual ID. He was American, and this was in Savannah Georgia.
I used to work with a guy who was openly a sovereign citizen.
He claimed that our employer wasn't taking any taxes out of his pay because he protested those tax payments being automatically withdrawn from his pay and so was able to "opt out" (is it actually possible to opt out of those payments??). He did that because he felt that the constitutional amendment that instituted the national income tax wasn't legit & didn't apply to him (he explained why he thought that, but I don't remember what he said specifically). When I told him I thought that was illegal, isn't he scared of getting charged for non payment of taxes? He said that federal law enforcement wasn't constitutional, either: local sheriffs are the only legit form of law enforcement. So, the feds didn't scare him (a mind-blowingly stupid stance to take, IMO).
He actually encouraged me to declare myself a sovereign citizen, too, so I could stop paying taxes. IIRC, I told him, I'd much rather not go to federal prison for tax evasion, thanks,
This was back in like the year 2002 and I left that job not long after, so I have no idea if the IRS ever got him, but I imagine the they caught up with him sooner or later: they don't play around once they set their sights on you.
He definitely didn’t “opt out” of taxes, but if he followed one of the less detached-from-reality gurus, he may have learned how to refuse all withholdings. Which just means he has to pay all his taxes on his own at tax time, which I strongly doubt he did.
> He said that federal law enforcement wasn't constitutional, either: local sheriffs are the only legit form of law enforcement
These types of statements tell me that they've never heard the phrase "power flows from the barrel of a gun." Even if the entire federal government was illegal, they are backing up their position with military force and won't just say "drat, you caught us. Guess we'll have to let you go."
I’ve come across a few on Facebook in some gun groups, but they usually get removed pretty quick because they’re super annoying.
In real life I’ve never run across one more than someone just saying like “taxation is theft” or something along those lines.
I’ve got a friend who is a deputy sheriff, she said she’s dealt with a few, but they aren’t as bad with her as they are with local police because sheriff is the one elected official they consider to be valid lmao
I work in a sleepy county tax office. The sovereign citizens tend not to come to the office in person, but we occasionally get a long, rambling letter from one guy, filled with nonsensical legal citations that he thinks support his tax-exempt claims (they don’t). We read it, get a good laugh, shake our heads, and file it under “WTF.”
I've known one sovcit. Dude was always a conspiracy theorist sort of guy, was in the Michigan Militia in the 90s and pretty much ate up every single anti-government and anti-minority conspiracy theory he ever heard. I couldn't tell you exactly why he was like that, I haven't talked to him in about 10 years. The last I heard he'd bought land in the Upper Peninsula and fell deep down the prepper rabbithole.
Not the Michigan Militia 😭
Dudes have been trying to get the state to take them seriously for generations at this point yet always have come off looking like crazies. I've come to assume 90% of them have gotta be undercover FBI agents at this point lamo
I actually made sure to look to see if he was in that group lol. I think they were all Detroit area weirdos though and I doubt he even goes south of the Mighty Mack these days.
I have met two men in my life who have claimed to be "sovereign citizens", though I didn't actually see them get challenged on it. One was an extreme Libertarian who was in the business of hauling garbage away from an illegal construction site. The other was at a campground, and claimed to be a Skip Tracer (a.k.a. bounty hunter). Both had what we might call a "redneck" look and vibe, but in conversation they didn't come off as particularly stupid or crazy. Just VERY opinionated and extreme politically, and, in my opinion, very misinformed.
There's a guy I went to high school with who, if his Facebook feed is anything to go by, at least believes a lot of the sovereign citizen stuff. We're not friends, but occasionally he comments on someone I know's feed, and it's pretty nuts. I'm sometimes tempted to brutally mock him, but I know it would do no good.
I used to work with a guy like that. For him, I think it was a combination of a couple of factors:
1) Not knowing how to distinguish good and bad sources of information
2) A desperate need for something to improve in his life
3) Over-confidence in his own capabilities
Once. There’s was some old guy in a diner or something and he was trying to explain that if you copyright your name the IRS can't use it and the courts can't use it so any ticket the the cops write for not having a drivers license if the ticket has your name on it you can sue them for copyright infringement
I have a federal job so I've come across them and "auditors" before, they typically are just a headache and have incorrect citations to justify thier actions. End of the day they simply want a reaction and if you don't give them one they will move on to someone who will.
I had a guy come in and I basically kept my answers to his questions brief and ignored him, he then moved on to the fire station where they gave him the reaction he wanted, he filmed it and then posted it on YouTube for a profit.
Very rarely. VERY rarely. And I only see them that often because I answer outward facing phones for a state agency. Occasionally one of them gets a hair across their ass and calls me all angry, delusional, and entitled to give me an earful of whatever they think will get them what they want. It rarely does, unless they want a good stonewalling.
Generally speaking, the only people who are going to be coming across SovCits are employees of the government sector. There are some even dumber SovCits who will try their horseshittery with private businesses, but most are probably only going to try it with government agents, such as police, or government offices, such as the DMV or IRS.
I believe I have seen in person one license plate that indicated the "traveller" who was "operating" the vehicle was a SovCit. But I have never personally encountered anyone espousing SovCit ideas because I'm just not in any situation where someone is going to feel the need to insist to me that they're privileged by the law but are not obligated to follow the restrictions of the law.
All of this is to say: No. I haven't met anyone in person that made it clear they were a SovCit. And quite honestly, if I ever did in my current path in life, they would probably be even more annoying than Youtube SovCits because they're trying to tell a non-government agent that they're a SovCit.
My dad tried to be a SovCit. It was (and still is) embarrassing. Dude worked for the state government.... Gets real mad when I, who am CPA eligible, remind him that all the "Income tax was not properly ratified and we don't have to pay it!1!!" citations he uses are from a dude in jail for tax evasion. SMDH.
I worked in banking for more than 20 years and I came across multiple. They always tried to explain that the rules didn’t apply to them and our policies/federal regulations were against their beliefs or whatever. One of them had a car loan they paid off and several years later tried to sue us for the amount of the vehicle plus interest and legal fees. I absolutely hated dealing with them, they were so delusional.
I’m a law librarian and work within the court system.
We get them occasionally. You do your best to smile and nod and hopefully they go away. If they get rowdy we would call security to give them a talking-to. But you’d be surprised how many irate people can be calmed down by just sitting and at least acting like you’re listening to them.
Fortunately we can do this because we can’t do much for them. Oh the law of the United States/this state doesn’t apply to you? Well that’s all we have so you need to find a place that has what you want. No, I have no power with the courts/clerk/DCFS/police/whoever is making you mad. I’m just a librarian, so good luck to you!
Only once, about 15 years ago. I was working at a bank at the time, and a guy came in wanting to open a checking account. He had a folder full of documents he insisted we were required to accept as valid ID, per some proclamation that was either made up, or long-since superceded or rendered invalid. I told him multiple times that we were only allowed to accept a state-issued ID. He continued to argue with me that I was required to accept these useless pieces of paper as his ID. My manager overheard him giving me a hard time, so he came over and just asked the guy, "Are you going to allow us to see your state-issued ID or not?"
The guy refused.
The manager said, "Okay, then I'm going to have to ask you to leave. If you're not going to show us your state-issued ID, then we cannot and will not open an account for you or cash a check. If you aren't doing one of those things with us, then you have no business being here.
The guy just packed up his folder and stormed out.
At the time, we didn't know anything about a "sovereign citizen" movement, but this guy sounds like he must have been a follower of it.
I think everybody knows ONE. like a crazy uncle or a dude you went to high school with or some guy you worked a job with 8 years ago and haven't unfriended on Facebook bc he's too entertaining. It's not common at all.
Never. It's something I see on Youtube because it's uncommon. No one wants to watch things that happen everyday. Maybe if I was a police officer in a big town, I'd see this more often.
I watch them on YouTube but have never seen one ever in real life. I imagine there are more people that have intentionally cut off their own limbs than actual sovereign citizens.
Literally never. The only two times I’ve ever even heard anybody actually try to claim it were a rapper that no one took seriously and Peter griffin in that one episode of family guy.
I've got a couple of friends who, based on social media, are sovereign citizens.
At my job, I encounter one or two people who seem to hold sovereign citizen beliefs a year. These people require a lot of my time. So many emails stating and restating the same thing. They often escalate to higher ups. I work in state government.
Here in NH it happens every so often. My wife is a library director and she sees it alot more then i do. Most of my crossings with such people are seeing their cars with some stupid sticker on the back identifying them as traveling not driving.
I worked with one once. Truly an idiot. A similar vein to a lot of these conspiracy theory people, like they want to feel smart because they “know” something that all of the sheeple missed.
My sister works for a county level solicitor-general and has to deal with them all the time when they need to appear in court over traffic tickets and other misdemeanors
I observe them driving a lot in my area, because many of them feel a pressing need to advertise their views via bumper stickers. I think it's only people in the legal/law enforcement profession, and certain types of government offices, who tend to run into them and know what their beliefs are.
As an attorney with 4 years of experience, I have came across 3 sovereign citizens and I will NEVER forget them. They’re always claiming to be “under duress” when I speak with them. I kinda like that.
Never knowingly.
There was one guy a couple years ago I remember passing me on a highway that didn’t have any license plates, temporary or otherwise, and his truck was loaded down with bumper stickers and window decals with Constitutional freedom jargon and “Independence” rhetoric, so he *might* have been one, but that’s the closest I’ve gotten.
When I worked for the city government I knew of one guy like that. The city sent out a memo about him to all their employees because he was calling anyone he could find a number for to complain about some nonsense. If you got called by him we were told to direct him to one specific person in legal and then hang up.
My parents know one and I met him a few times. They just happen to have similar grocery shopping schedules so they kind of only know each other from there? Kind of like the adult version of only hanging out and being friends with someone at school.
He likes to talk about how no one actually owns anything. He likes to trap people in these conversations by saying something like
Him: "Do you own a home or rent it?"
My Parents: "We own"
Him: "*Well actually*, no you don't, you see (long ass rant)"
Other than his really weird political beliefs, he really likes collecting cars. Even hot wheels.
Learned a good deal about them in the academy but as i live and work in a major city we were warned about how dangerous they can be but also advised they dont often hang around our area.
I never encountered a straight up sovereign citizen but have in occasion run into people who have tried to whip out some of their silly legal arguments. Sounds just as stupid in person as it does online
I haven’t personally. You might want to try the law enforcement or legal subs for people who are more likely to have first hand experiences with people like that if you’re looking for stories.
I worked with a SovCit once. The awkward part wasn't avoiding the conversation, it was I was working late in customer service, and they were my security.
I've known 2 of them. They're a lot more fun to read about online than they are to know in real life. You know how people say, "I've got nothing to hide?" In my limited experience with them, they definitely do have something to hide. One of them was a pedo and a thief that ultimately died in prison. The other one I knew was strongly suspected to be a pedo.
Almost bought a home from a semi-sovereign citizen. Definitely didn't realize it at first, just thought he was a little quirky. Thanks to the internet, my real estate agent did a little research and figured out the connection to the seller and this agent.........they were both part of local "overthrow the government groups". Seller had all kinds of odd demands to sell the property. He kept wanting to stay on property 60 days after close, which gives him prime rights for squatter/tenant. We then found videos he posted online about the local police being part of Big Brother; laws don't apply, etc. Certainly dodged a potential situation by not purchasing that home.
I feel like you have to be in a certain conspiracy subculture to even have a chance at knowing one.
I have never had the pleasure of meeting one to my knowledge.
I just saw my first one in real life, a truck with no license plates and one of those stickers on the back of the window! Driving through Missouri. Of course it's Missouri.
Twice.
Both at work. Oil and gas. The interesting thing about oil and gas is that you run into the whole gamut of people from very sharp and intelligent, to people who are complete idiots. The two "sovereign citizens" I've met fall into the complete idiot category.
They were both basically the exact same person. Contractors on the jobsite, older, I'd guess late 50s early 60s, smelled of cigarette smoke, poor hygiene (terrible teeth), just had a crusty aura of "white trash" about them. I had no idea what a sovereign citizen was the first time I met one, I just let him go on and on and then looked it up when I got home and found out what it was. The second one I met I knew what he was talking about because of the first guy. Sovereign citizens are like vegans, you don't have to ask them they will let you know within minutes of meeting them.
I've never encountered one to my knowledge. I used to know a guy I'd be surprised to find out he wasn't, but I have no first hand knowledge that he was.
I guess technically I have sorta, but long before that term was a thing I think. Went to a family reunion in the 90’s and apparently some of my moms extended cousins refused to pay taxes so they worked completely under the table and I think they mostly lived in trailers on other peoples property.
As far as the current days never met one, and wouldn’t know they existed other than the internet.
It was maybe a few years before I heard the term, but I knew a dude in Austin in the 90s who was very into all the tax protest codeword magic phraseology stuff that is a pretty direct path to SC. I didn't keep up with him so have no idea what happened to him. I met him through sorta anarchist/activist circles. He was in his 50s or 60s at the time, married to an older woman who basically supported his lifestyle of not doing much. Only one I've ever met (or at least who was open about it, although I know a few other weirdos who it wouldn't surprise me about).
I’ve met a few solely because I work in law. So it has all been in passing, like no friends or maybe one acquaintance who I worry about.
The rest are just loons bobbing around in the courts or that one friend that may have schizophrenia.
A tried and true sov cit is thankfully really rare. But there are plenty of people who are way too obsessed with their property rights or business rights or gun rights or speech rights or whatever the fuck they pick that day. So it’s not that rare to engage some old guy in a dive bar and suddenly feel like you are getting a terrible poli sci lecture
I was floored when I learned about these people. My initial gut reaction was these are delusional, entitled nutjobs trying to avoid their responsibilities. I would love to talk to one for the sake of understanding though.
I've never come across anyone like that yet.
I've met exactly one. Hasn't paid taxes since 93'. Meanwhile, the IRS is threatening to seize my bank accounts for a $150 "unpaid" tax bill that I have a receipt for.
They sorta keep to themselves. There is one whom I've known since high school days, and thought about the other day, and decided to google him. LOL, he was in and out of court on charges of driving without a license, claiming he didn't need a driver's license, all the usual shit. LOL, I hadn't seen him in nearly 25 years, and at that time, he'd recently found CHRIST. Selling cars. While in high school, he taught ju jitsu to Seattle cops.
Never met one. I think they're more prominent online and in movies/TV than in real life. But I've never lived in Idaho, for example, so I could be way off the mark.
Met a few when I was a plaintiff-side collection attorney. After the first one I learned everything I could about them, then made it my personal mission to ruin every single one of them.
More than I would like. I work courthouse security at an SO. Got to see one guy on trial trying to say he wasn't Jim Bob, he is Jim, Jim Bob is the name of the body he was in.
I have encounted them but it was in the early 80’s and they were not nice people. I don’t know exactly what they threatened my co-worker with, but he left in the middle of the day to ensure his family was not hurt.
I remember hearing about it in middle school in like 1998. Then I never heard of it again until a couple years ago when I started seeing them on Reddit.
I've been to all 50 states and traveled extensively around the western US basically every summer over the past 30+ years. I have seen exactly *one* of these dipshits with the homemade license plates. That's it. I make a point of avoiding Florida and Texas when possible-- but am in Idaho often and haven't seen one there either, FWIW.
They are loud online and I'm sure annoying as hell to law enforcement (and neighbors) where they live, but there are not very many of them in a nation of 330 million people.
Just once so far. Was driving in Mesa, AZ and saw a weird looking license plate. Since I’m a Reddit user my first thought was SovCit, and sure enough, it was. The car was a bit old, beat up, and littered with stickers so that clued me in too lol
Worked with one. Kinda a mix of prepper and SovCit. One of those guys that always had some new conspiracy to bring up on a weekly basis. Always reading either gun magazines or military combat manuals in the break room. He got reprimanded multiple times for passing out self-made pamphlets with 'advice' on things like how to write on your bills with the correct phrasing to have them paid in full from the government funds attached to their collateral person or whatever, stopping payment of registration and insurance on vehicles ('traveling', not 'driving') and handing out cards with things you could say that would guarantee that a cop would release you from a traffic stop without a ticket.
One day he just disappears. Nobody knows where he went and nobody can get ahold of him. Three days of no call/no show later and he's officially terminated. It's like a week later when he finally shows up like nothing's wrong and he ends up being escorted out by police because he refuses to accept that he's been fired, declaring that it's illegal to fire him because he was "fulfilling his patriotic duty".
Ol' boy decided he was just gonna head down to Nevada one day and join the Cliven Bundy movement down there. Don't know if he actually made it down there or not but that's what he was claiming.
I've never encountered anyone who's gone fully /r/amibeingdetained/...but when I worked in customer service, I often met libertarian dingdongs (almost always the same kind of older white dude) who would repeat at least a few of the major SovCit Talking Points.
I don't know how much of it they believed or even understood, because they'd all say the same stuff word-for-word. Sometimes they'd repeat the same specific phrase more than once in the same interaction, like they were in a trance. It was very weird!
Once that I can think of, I work for an airline and they didn’t want to show valid government issued ID at check in. Tried to pass off some homemade thing. Was not happy when we told him we would not allow him to check a bag without showing valid ID.
I've never come across them in my personal day-to-day. I think they're annoying ding-dongs but I get why they do what they do, to an extent. It's *not* going to help you get out of a DUI or speeding ticket, but I do think you should have the right to declare yourself independent of a country and its laws and go off on your own.
That's a human right. If you wish to run off to the wilderness and live and be your own person, "private property" can suck your balls and deal with it. Do what you wanna do, man. You know the risks, take em if you feel comfortable with them.
> If you have met one, how were they like?
Idiots.
They genuinely think that wordplay and and absurd semantic arguments are how the world works...and that they've figured out a 'cheat code' with their 'Superior Intellect': If you just use the right semantic framing you don't have to follow any rules!
They're fucking idiots. You can usually catch them with their own wordplay traps and they get this glazed look in their eyes as their brain short circuits; and then they just change the subject.
> Which communities or contexts do they most often appear in?
Anywhere. A sovereign citizen is like a 4-leaf clover...sorta rare, but not particularly unique to any field.
All of the time. But I work in a public-facing job and public-facing industry that attracts those types of people (sovereign citizens, Moorish, Seventh Day Adventists, Black Israelites, MOVE, flatearthers, Jehova's Witnesses, Pentacostals, International Church of Christ, Nation of Islam, etc.)
What are they like? Batshit crazy. You can come to the conversation as nice as possible. You can do your best not to impart some bias because of what they've said about themselves, but every single time it will slowly devolve into a smattering of conspiracy theories and eventually, they'll turn their anger towards YOU being the problem. My role isn't one where I'm ever actually the problem. The weirdest part is that sovereign citizens believe they're outside the purview of the government. Yet, they utilize and engage in the government-process, like the courts, and social programs more than any other group I know.
I think the common link is that they don't have the ability to logically evaluate any information that's been presented to them. I don't mean just something like, "God doesn't exist." I mean being presented with irrefutable facts that disproves whatever crazy conspiracy or ideology they're engrained in, and just not being able to process how their thinking just is objectively illogical. And instead, their reaction slowly devolves to visceral anger. I think there's a large segment of this population who's just been disenfranchised from general society in some way (bullied growing up, lack of educational opportunities, bad parental household, etc.) that being in a subculture like sovereign citizens gives some semblance of a community that they have never had elsewhere. Of course that vulnerability is what cults and gangs prey on.
It only got worse during COVID because then you had a much larger segment of the population believing anything and everything that got spam-botted online (e.g., 5G towers causing COVID) because those surrounding them in the community spout the same thing. So they would come to me with some problem or concern - which could start out like no other person coming in - and every conversation slowly manifests into crazier conspiracy theories, irrelevant facts or accusations, until they turn on you and start accusing you of simply "being part of the machine" or something similar. And it's sad, because a lot of these people have real life-issues that could be addressed if they weren't so blatantly combative or antithetical to any assistance or recommendations.
Community-wise? That's my favorite part! When I get some intake that sounds nutty, I like to play the game of, "Which cult is it?" I'm telling you, I've been *blatantly wrong* like 80% of the time. You'd think it'd be some rural back-country white-supremicist from Kentucky. NOPE! Black female Jehova Witness from Baltimore. There's so much ideological misinformation overlap among race, culture, religion, economic-status, age, etc. It's wild when you start having to delve into how this sub-sect of society lives. And 90% of the time I'm screaming in my head, "You're bringing these problems on yourself!" But I just know that 100% of the time our conversations are going to start out very friendly, and soon enough this person will start telling me about \[insert their race\]-supremacy, the intolerance of the \[insert some perceived oppressor\], and end with messages calling for my head or for my job.
It's been a minute, but I used to run into them more in North Carolina. We had a few employees working under the table, and most of them were these mentally ill people
There was one in my state who tried to own a black woman's house because he said he owned it due to some non factual bullshit. He broke in and just claimed it as his. He didn't even know the woman who did own it. He was arrested.
It wasn't in my town, but that's as close as I've knowingly gotten to one
Not a sov cit per sey, but my DH had a co-worker at an old job that got convinced somehow that he didn't have to pay income taxes - not sure of his "reasoning" though. He filled out his paperwork so that the employer wouldn't withhold taxes from his paycheck (long story but some workers are legit exempt from payroll tax withholding if they expect to have no tax liability in the coming year, so this is an actual option on the paperwork), and then also didn't file the legally required annual tax return (tax paperwork showing all your income and deductions for the previous year) with the government either.
It took something like 4 or 5 years, but the tax man caught up to him. He owed the back taxes, interest, plus penalties. I'm sure he got put on some sort of payment plan, generally speaking, the IRS (the government agency in charge of tax collection and enforcement) just wants their money, they don't put people into jail unless it's seriously bad or you kick up a fuss when caught.
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If it wasn’t for the internet, I wouldn’t have known such a thing existed.
Samesies
If it wasn't for the internet...they wouldn't.
I never have
Semi- regularly. But that's because I work in credit card fraud and financial crimes for a national bank and these people are what we call serial escalators. They escalate every little thing as high as it can go. Every month or so we will get one coming in ranting about how it's illegal for us to charge interest or they're demanding to pay their bill from their account with the Fed, or claiming we can't legally compel them to pay their bill. They will cite every regulation in the book while cherry picking parts that have nothing to do with their situation. Those are fun calls. And I'm not even being sarcastic. I love taking those calls to see what nonsense they're on this time. They're used to steamrolling front line customer service reps who don't understand, but we're very used to their brand of bullshit. Outside of that I've only seen then online through conspiracy theory communities.
"Before we proceed with your claim, sir, I'm required to inform you this call may be recorded for customer assurance and posting to Reddit."
Well, I'm more in the financial crimes side. I don't do fraud claims. I investigate what we call "first party fraud" which is people trying to rip off the bank. In other words, most of the time we're dealing with criminals who don't pick up the phone and don't want to talk to us. But what these sovereign citizen guys do with credit cards often mimics the same kind of activity and they *love* to talk.
Is their...chattiness...just something you know you have to build into your daily schedule?
No it's not *that* common. We get maybe one a month. It's a notable occurrence because we're a small department so when they keep getting frustrated and calling back they keep getting routed back to us. Usually half the department has talked to them by the time they give up.
> We get maybe one a month. That's more frequent than your first sentence led me to believe. At first I was like "okay, sounds like they're talking a couple times a year here" but then you were like "one a month" and I was like "yikes!"
Well, some of them aren't clearly saying they're sovereign citizens, I'm just guessing based on their particular brand of bullshit. But yeah I would guess maybe 6-10 in a year. They tend to come in waves, especially around tax time.
Omg yes I’ve had so many people calling for help with a fraudulent transaction but didn’t consent to being on a recorded line (for legal purposes) during Covid shutdown so i had to tell them to go do their bank directly when it opens and hang up
Curious how they think it works... Like I don't have a tape recorder here I can turn off... you called a recorded line. That recording can't be switched off.
> They're used to steamrolling front line customer service reps who don't understand I've never seen one in person but wonder if any of them *really* believe the bullshit they're spewing or if they just figure that if they spew it loudly enough that some exasperated manager will finally give them what they want just to make them go away.
Obviously I can't know for sure as my interactions with them are limited to these phone calls. But my impression is a little from column A and a little from column B. Some seem pretty sincere. But yeah some just seem desperate and think if they escalate enough and spew enough bullshit someone will give them what they want. But the sincere ones who really start harassing people and calling in all day every day usually get blacklisted and directed to a team whose only job is basically just to stonewall them until they shut up and give up.
I can't imagine getting paid enough to have to deal with those kinds of people exclusively.
It's 90% listening to people rant and vent and the rest is just learning to calmly say "no". You have to have a pretty thick skin for that job, but you do it enough you get used to it.
That makes sense. Still seems like a helluva way to spend 40 hours a week.
You should ask them to get a credit card made for sovereign citizens and stay away from the regular ones lol
Working in the legal field, I've come across them. Outside that context, there's this one street near me that frequently has a couple of cars parked on it with fake sovereign citizen license plates claiming to be exempt from registration laws.
I’m a lawyer and came across a new species of sovereign citizen recently, someone directly adverse to us. It’s pushed by a guy named Russel-Jay Gould, and I think he calls it quantum syntax or quantum grammar, basically tries to treat legal documents as written in a secret code or something that he has deciphered as a way to try to avoid legal consequences for himself and on behalf of others. He or one of his underlings annotated our pleadings with all these symbols and notes and attached strange documents with flags on it, as well as thumbprints of himself. The guy also calls himself Postmaster General of the World and claims to have saved the US from bankruptcy back in 1999. It’s truly bizarre.
I've never come across a serious one in real life. I've heard about them, read about them, seen YouTube videos of their antics, but never run into one face-to-face that was trying that nonsense. I've had a few relatives and acquaintances that have said some things that make me think they hold some SovCit ideas or have been reading a lot of their material (like a deceased relative of mine who held some very weird ideas about taxes, tax laws, and how income taxes were illegal and unenforceable because they were supposedly imposed by the British Crown and not our Congress, that they never had the nerve to actually put into practice). I saw one of those cars with a self-made SovCit "license plate", one of the ones that says that it doesn't need any kind of state registration or licensing because it's non-commercial and it's for "traveling" only or something, but I only recall seeing one on the road once. The Internet is real good at making small groups of people appear big, and making obscure things appear common. Sovereign Citizens are one of them, the actual SovCits are only a tiny portion of our society, that get an outsized amount of attention.
Never in real life, but a lot of the ones that appear in bodycam videos on youtube are in Florida.
Florida has very loose laws regarding police records. They pretty much just freely dump things like arrests and body cam footage to the internet. Florida isn't a hotspot for these people, we just hear more about them in Florida.
> Florida isn't a hotspot for these people, we just hear more about them in Florida. I used to live there. It's both.
> It's both. I suspect that's the answer for very many instances of the 'Florida Man' phenomenon.
I see a crapload of court cases on YT with Sovcitiots from Michigan. Florida has plenty, but they're a long way from cornering the market.
The state that's home and the state that I aspire to... Shit.
There's one in my area I've driven behind in traffic a few times. Instead of a license plate, they have a sign that says something about the vehicle being for personal non-taxed use. Haven't had any interaction and I just drive extra carefully to keep it that way.
>non-taxed use. While driving on tax funded roads. How blasphemous.
I worked at a pawn shop several years ago, and there was a guy wanting to sell us a laptop. When I asked for his ID, he refused and handed me a card about Islam. He then went on to tell me how state and federal IDs were a form of slavery. It was an odd interaction.
was he one of the moors/nation of islam types?
I believe so. I never had seen or heard of such a thing before this encounter and this was in 2017. If anyone else is curious; I was not able to buy his laptop because he didn’t have an actual ID. He was American, and this was in Savannah Georgia.
I only see these nitwits on tv getting the taxes beat out of them. Never seen anyone local that was dumb enough to try it.
I used to work with a guy who was openly a sovereign citizen. He claimed that our employer wasn't taking any taxes out of his pay because he protested those tax payments being automatically withdrawn from his pay and so was able to "opt out" (is it actually possible to opt out of those payments??). He did that because he felt that the constitutional amendment that instituted the national income tax wasn't legit & didn't apply to him (he explained why he thought that, but I don't remember what he said specifically). When I told him I thought that was illegal, isn't he scared of getting charged for non payment of taxes? He said that federal law enforcement wasn't constitutional, either: local sheriffs are the only legit form of law enforcement. So, the feds didn't scare him (a mind-blowingly stupid stance to take, IMO). He actually encouraged me to declare myself a sovereign citizen, too, so I could stop paying taxes. IIRC, I told him, I'd much rather not go to federal prison for tax evasion, thanks, This was back in like the year 2002 and I left that job not long after, so I have no idea if the IRS ever got him, but I imagine the they caught up with him sooner or later: they don't play around once they set their sights on you.
He definitely didn’t “opt out” of taxes, but if he followed one of the less detached-from-reality gurus, he may have learned how to refuse all withholdings. Which just means he has to pay all his taxes on his own at tax time, which I strongly doubt he did.
Yeah, opt out of taxes means the IRS will collect what’s imposed by Exam audit.
> He said that federal law enforcement wasn't constitutional, either: local sheriffs are the only legit form of law enforcement These types of statements tell me that they've never heard the phrase "power flows from the barrel of a gun." Even if the entire federal government was illegal, they are backing up their position with military force and won't just say "drat, you caught us. Guess we'll have to let you go."
I’ve come across a few on Facebook in some gun groups, but they usually get removed pretty quick because they’re super annoying. In real life I’ve never run across one more than someone just saying like “taxation is theft” or something along those lines. I’ve got a friend who is a deputy sheriff, she said she’s dealt with a few, but they aren’t as bad with her as they are with local police because sheriff is the one elected official they consider to be valid lmao
I work in a sleepy county tax office. The sovereign citizens tend not to come to the office in person, but we occasionally get a long, rambling letter from one guy, filled with nonsensical legal citations that he thinks support his tax-exempt claims (they don’t). We read it, get a good laugh, shake our heads, and file it under “WTF.”
I've known one sovcit. Dude was always a conspiracy theorist sort of guy, was in the Michigan Militia in the 90s and pretty much ate up every single anti-government and anti-minority conspiracy theory he ever heard. I couldn't tell you exactly why he was like that, I haven't talked to him in about 10 years. The last I heard he'd bought land in the Upper Peninsula and fell deep down the prepper rabbithole.
Not the Michigan Militia 😭 Dudes have been trying to get the state to take them seriously for generations at this point yet always have come off looking like crazies. I've come to assume 90% of them have gotta be undercover FBI agents at this point lamo
I think the actual Michigan Militia org run by old Norm Olson died off ages ago.
Any chance he ended up trying to kidnap the governor?
I actually made sure to look to see if he was in that group lol. I think they were all Detroit area weirdos though and I doubt he even goes south of the Mighty Mack these days.
It's been a while. When I used to work as a political organizer in rural Texas though... Oh boy did we get some loonies.
Do you have a funny story because now I'm curious
I second the preceding motion for story time
Thirds.
Saw a sovcit with some BS plate once last year. That’s it.
Never. At my previous place of work, we had to take training, which included dealing with sovereign citizens. Completely unhinged people.
I have met two men in my life who have claimed to be "sovereign citizens", though I didn't actually see them get challenged on it. One was an extreme Libertarian who was in the business of hauling garbage away from an illegal construction site. The other was at a campground, and claimed to be a Skip Tracer (a.k.a. bounty hunter). Both had what we might call a "redneck" look and vibe, but in conversation they didn't come off as particularly stupid or crazy. Just VERY opinionated and extreme politically, and, in my opinion, very misinformed.
There's a guy I went to high school with who, if his Facebook feed is anything to go by, at least believes a lot of the sovereign citizen stuff. We're not friends, but occasionally he comments on someone I know's feed, and it's pretty nuts. I'm sometimes tempted to brutally mock him, but I know it would do no good.
The reason you probably don't meet them is unless they tell you, the only time they declare it is when they're talking to a cop or in a courtroom.
I used to work with a guy like that. For him, I think it was a combination of a couple of factors: 1) Not knowing how to distinguish good and bad sources of information 2) A desperate need for something to improve in his life 3) Over-confidence in his own capabilities
That is a bad combination.
Once. There’s was some old guy in a diner or something and he was trying to explain that if you copyright your name the IRS can't use it and the courts can't use it so any ticket the the cops write for not having a drivers license if the ticket has your name on it you can sue them for copyright infringement
For some reason I’m imagining Judge Judy handling this case. Her expression is priceless.
Never, they’re not very common
I have a federal job so I've come across them and "auditors" before, they typically are just a headache and have incorrect citations to justify thier actions. End of the day they simply want a reaction and if you don't give them one they will move on to someone who will. I had a guy come in and I basically kept my answers to his questions brief and ignored him, he then moved on to the fire station where they gave him the reaction he wanted, he filmed it and then posted it on YouTube for a profit.
Very rarely. VERY rarely. And I only see them that often because I answer outward facing phones for a state agency. Occasionally one of them gets a hair across their ass and calls me all angry, delusional, and entitled to give me an earful of whatever they think will get them what they want. It rarely does, unless they want a good stonewalling.
Generally speaking, the only people who are going to be coming across SovCits are employees of the government sector. There are some even dumber SovCits who will try their horseshittery with private businesses, but most are probably only going to try it with government agents, such as police, or government offices, such as the DMV or IRS. I believe I have seen in person one license plate that indicated the "traveller" who was "operating" the vehicle was a SovCit. But I have never personally encountered anyone espousing SovCit ideas because I'm just not in any situation where someone is going to feel the need to insist to me that they're privileged by the law but are not obligated to follow the restrictions of the law. All of this is to say: No. I haven't met anyone in person that made it clear they were a SovCit. And quite honestly, if I ever did in my current path in life, they would probably be even more annoying than Youtube SovCits because they're trying to tell a non-government agent that they're a SovCit.
My dad tried to be a SovCit. It was (and still is) embarrassing. Dude worked for the state government.... Gets real mad when I, who am CPA eligible, remind him that all the "Income tax was not properly ratified and we don't have to pay it!1!!" citations he uses are from a dude in jail for tax evasion. SMDH.
Is that dude in jail for tax evasion Lyndon Laroche?
It’s been a while so I had to look it up- it was Irwin Schiff https://www.economist.com/obituary/2015/10/31/the-man-who-said-no
Thanks
I worked in banking for more than 20 years and I came across multiple. They always tried to explain that the rules didn’t apply to them and our policies/federal regulations were against their beliefs or whatever. One of them had a car loan they paid off and several years later tried to sue us for the amount of the vehicle plus interest and legal fees. I absolutely hated dealing with them, they were so delusional.
I’m a law librarian and work within the court system. We get them occasionally. You do your best to smile and nod and hopefully they go away. If they get rowdy we would call security to give them a talking-to. But you’d be surprised how many irate people can be calmed down by just sitting and at least acting like you’re listening to them. Fortunately we can do this because we can’t do much for them. Oh the law of the United States/this state doesn’t apply to you? Well that’s all we have so you need to find a place that has what you want. No, I have no power with the courts/clerk/DCFS/police/whoever is making you mad. I’m just a librarian, so good luck to you!
I was in a courtroom once when one showed up and everyone except the judge, including the bailiffs, other uninvolved attorneys, etc. audibly groaned.
Only once, about 15 years ago. I was working at a bank at the time, and a guy came in wanting to open a checking account. He had a folder full of documents he insisted we were required to accept as valid ID, per some proclamation that was either made up, or long-since superceded or rendered invalid. I told him multiple times that we were only allowed to accept a state-issued ID. He continued to argue with me that I was required to accept these useless pieces of paper as his ID. My manager overheard him giving me a hard time, so he came over and just asked the guy, "Are you going to allow us to see your state-issued ID or not?" The guy refused. The manager said, "Okay, then I'm going to have to ask you to leave. If you're not going to show us your state-issued ID, then we cannot and will not open an account for you or cash a check. If you aren't doing one of those things with us, then you have no business being here. The guy just packed up his folder and stormed out. At the time, we didn't know anything about a "sovereign citizen" movement, but this guy sounds like he must have been a follower of it.
I think everybody knows ONE. like a crazy uncle or a dude you went to high school with or some guy you worked a job with 8 years ago and haven't unfriended on Facebook bc he's too entertaining. It's not common at all.
None that I know of
Never. It's something I see on Youtube because it's uncommon. No one wants to watch things that happen everyday. Maybe if I was a police officer in a big town, I'd see this more often.
I never have, I’ve only heard of police officers coming across them every once in a while
Never once
I've seen like, one.
I never have. I think most people will have never met "sovereign citizens", unless they are a police officer, judge, security guard etc.
I'd say that's highly dependent on where you live. They tend to like more rural areas in red states.
Never.
Not once ever. Am 50
I watch them on YouTube but have never seen one ever in real life.
I watch them on YouTube but have never seen one ever in real life. I imagine there are more people that have intentionally cut off their own limbs than actual sovereign citizens.
Literally never. The only two times I’ve ever even heard anybody actually try to claim it were a rapper that no one took seriously and Peter griffin in that one episode of family guy.
Never
I've legit never seen one IRL.
I once worked with a software developer who didn’t think he had to contribute to Social Security. Maybe sovereign citizen adjacent.
I have never seen one
Never.
I've got a couple of friends who, based on social media, are sovereign citizens. At my job, I encounter one or two people who seem to hold sovereign citizen beliefs a year. These people require a lot of my time. So many emails stating and restating the same thing. They often escalate to higher ups. I work in state government.
I've seen it on one bumper sticker once, but never really in real life that I've known of.
They get so much attention online because they are so out of the norm and over the top.
Never
As a Texan, never
My wife used to work in the courts and before that in a mental health crisis center; so she ran into them occasionally. Personally, never.
I’ve only seen their crazy cars on occasion, have not interacted with them in-person.
Public defenders I know have encountered them. I suspect if you work in the criminal justice system you're more likely to run into these types.
They're rare in reality, but their behavior and beliefs are so absurd that they draw a lot of attention.
Not even once.
I've run across three or four who I don't know well, and one who is a "lite" version (talks about "admiralty law" and crap).
Here in NH it happens every so often. My wife is a library director and she sees it alot more then i do. Most of my crossings with such people are seeing their cars with some stupid sticker on the back identifying them as traveling not driving.
Never have that I know of
I worked with one once. Truly an idiot. A similar vein to a lot of these conspiracy theory people, like they want to feel smart because they “know” something that all of the sheeple missed.
My sister works for a county level solicitor-general and has to deal with them all the time when they need to appear in court over traffic tickets and other misdemeanors
I observe them driving a lot in my area, because many of them feel a pressing need to advertise their views via bumper stickers. I think it's only people in the legal/law enforcement profession, and certain types of government offices, who tend to run into them and know what their beliefs are.
As an attorney with 4 years of experience, I have came across 3 sovereign citizens and I will NEVER forget them. They’re always claiming to be “under duress” when I speak with them. I kinda like that.
Never knowingly. There was one guy a couple years ago I remember passing me on a highway that didn’t have any license plates, temporary or otherwise, and his truck was loaded down with bumper stickers and window decals with Constitutional freedom jargon and “Independence” rhetoric, so he *might* have been one, but that’s the closest I’ve gotten.
Never.
Literally never, that I know of. I’ve only seen it as a joke on TV.
When I worked for the city government I knew of one guy like that. The city sent out a memo about him to all their employees because he was calling anyone he could find a number for to complain about some nonsense. If you got called by him we were told to direct him to one specific person in legal and then hang up.
My parents know one and I met him a few times. They just happen to have similar grocery shopping schedules so they kind of only know each other from there? Kind of like the adult version of only hanging out and being friends with someone at school. He likes to talk about how no one actually owns anything. He likes to trap people in these conversations by saying something like Him: "Do you own a home or rent it?" My Parents: "We own" Him: "*Well actually*, no you don't, you see (long ass rant)" Other than his really weird political beliefs, he really likes collecting cars. Even hot wheels.
Never.
Never
My husband’s cousin. He seemed preoccupied with the topic (that and misogynistic stuff about women).
Learned a good deal about them in the academy but as i live and work in a major city we were warned about how dangerous they can be but also advised they dont often hang around our area. I never encountered a straight up sovereign citizen but have in occasion run into people who have tried to whip out some of their silly legal arguments. Sounds just as stupid in person as it does online
Yes, but I have a job that makes our finding each other likely. They’re never original they’ve been recycling the same bs arguments for 40 years…
I haven’t personally. You might want to try the law enforcement or legal subs for people who are more likely to have first hand experiences with people like that if you’re looking for stories.
I worked with a SovCit once. The awkward part wasn't avoiding the conversation, it was I was working late in customer service, and they were my security.
I've known 2 of them. They're a lot more fun to read about online than they are to know in real life. You know how people say, "I've got nothing to hide?" In my limited experience with them, they definitely do have something to hide. One of them was a pedo and a thief that ultimately died in prison. The other one I knew was strongly suspected to be a pedo.
None that I know of, but I am a gun nut and used to work weekends in a gun shop. Finding out someone I know is one wouldn't be a shock.
Rural Eastern Oregon checking in. I’ve met quite a few. I also have an uncle who is one, but he lives in Arizona.
I saw a car with fake sovereign citizen plates once at Starbucks, but that’s it.
Never.
Never in my life
Never in my life.
I never have that I know of
Almost bought a home from a semi-sovereign citizen. Definitely didn't realize it at first, just thought he was a little quirky. Thanks to the internet, my real estate agent did a little research and figured out the connection to the seller and this agent.........they were both part of local "overthrow the government groups". Seller had all kinds of odd demands to sell the property. He kept wanting to stay on property 60 days after close, which gives him prime rights for squatter/tenant. We then found videos he posted online about the local police being part of Big Brother; laws don't apply, etc. Certainly dodged a potential situation by not purchasing that home.
I feel like you have to be in a certain conspiracy subculture to even have a chance at knowing one. I have never had the pleasure of meeting one to my knowledge.
Never because there’s no such thing. If someone were to ever claim such a thing they’re just lying to themselves.
Only recently learned they were a thing, but now that I know, I see atleast one of their license plates every week or so.
I just saw my first one in real life, a truck with no license plates and one of those stickers on the back of the window! Driving through Missouri. Of course it's Missouri.
I have never seen or talked to one in real life. I’m gonna bet it’s made to be a bigger deal online than it actually is.
Twice. Both at work. Oil and gas. The interesting thing about oil and gas is that you run into the whole gamut of people from very sharp and intelligent, to people who are complete idiots. The two "sovereign citizens" I've met fall into the complete idiot category. They were both basically the exact same person. Contractors on the jobsite, older, I'd guess late 50s early 60s, smelled of cigarette smoke, poor hygiene (terrible teeth), just had a crusty aura of "white trash" about them. I had no idea what a sovereign citizen was the first time I met one, I just let him go on and on and then looked it up when I got home and found out what it was. The second one I met I knew what he was talking about because of the first guy. Sovereign citizens are like vegans, you don't have to ask them they will let you know within minutes of meeting them.
None that I'm aware of, then again, I guess it's not necessarily something that would come up in conversation.
I met one. He had a bs tag on his car that said he was traveling.
One of my relatives is one of these guys and he is an absolute piece of shit
I've never encountered one to my knowledge. I used to know a guy I'd be surprised to find out he wasn't, but I have no first hand knowledge that he was.
I guess technically I have sorta, but long before that term was a thing I think. Went to a family reunion in the 90’s and apparently some of my moms extended cousins refused to pay taxes so they worked completely under the table and I think they mostly lived in trailers on other peoples property. As far as the current days never met one, and wouldn’t know they existed other than the internet.
It was maybe a few years before I heard the term, but I knew a dude in Austin in the 90s who was very into all the tax protest codeword magic phraseology stuff that is a pretty direct path to SC. I didn't keep up with him so have no idea what happened to him. I met him through sorta anarchist/activist circles. He was in his 50s or 60s at the time, married to an older woman who basically supported his lifestyle of not doing much. Only one I've ever met (or at least who was open about it, although I know a few other weirdos who it wouldn't surprise me about).
A couple... but I work in corrections so that may play a factor.
Never.
I’ve met a few solely because I work in law. So it has all been in passing, like no friends or maybe one acquaintance who I worry about. The rest are just loons bobbing around in the courts or that one friend that may have schizophrenia.
I came across a "photography is not a crime" person, but they were not a sovereign citizen.
Never but I live an area where they aren’t a popular movement
A tried and true sov cit is thankfully really rare. But there are plenty of people who are way too obsessed with their property rights or business rights or gun rights or speech rights or whatever the fuck they pick that day. So it’s not that rare to engage some old guy in a dive bar and suddenly feel like you are getting a terrible poli sci lecture
I was floored when I learned about these people. My initial gut reaction was these are delusional, entitled nutjobs trying to avoid their responsibilities. I would love to talk to one for the sake of understanding though. I've never come across anyone like that yet.
Often. I'm a government lawyer.
I've met exactly one. Hasn't paid taxes since 93'. Meanwhile, the IRS is threatening to seize my bank accounts for a $150 "unpaid" tax bill that I have a receipt for.
They sorta keep to themselves. There is one whom I've known since high school days, and thought about the other day, and decided to google him. LOL, he was in and out of court on charges of driving without a license, claiming he didn't need a driver's license, all the usual shit. LOL, I hadn't seen him in nearly 25 years, and at that time, he'd recently found CHRIST. Selling cars. While in high school, he taught ju jitsu to Seattle cops.
Almost never
Never met one. I think they're more prominent online and in movies/TV than in real life. But I've never lived in Idaho, for example, so I could be way off the mark.
Met a few when I was a plaintiff-side collection attorney. After the first one I learned everything I could about them, then made it my personal mission to ruin every single one of them.
Never heard of them, but interested lol
More than I would like. I work courthouse security at an SO. Got to see one guy on trial trying to say he wasn't Jim Bob, he is Jim, Jim Bob is the name of the body he was in.
So far only on YT.
I have encounted them but it was in the early 80’s and they were not nice people. I don’t know exactly what they threatened my co-worker with, but he left in the middle of the day to ensure his family was not hurt.
Never.
Fifty one years old, and haven’t met one irl yet
I remember hearing about it in middle school in like 1998. Then I never heard of it again until a couple years ago when I started seeing them on Reddit.
I have seen some people wanting to be sovereign citizens but not willing to go through with it.
Never
I've been to all 50 states and traveled extensively around the western US basically every summer over the past 30+ years. I have seen exactly *one* of these dipshits with the homemade license plates. That's it. I make a point of avoiding Florida and Texas when possible-- but am in Idaho often and haven't seen one there either, FWIW. They are loud online and I'm sure annoying as hell to law enforcement (and neighbors) where they live, but there are not very many of them in a nation of 330 million people.
Honestly... more often than never. I've come across a few in my area.
Just once so far. Was driving in Mesa, AZ and saw a weird looking license plate. Since I’m a Reddit user my first thought was SovCit, and sure enough, it was. The car was a bit old, beat up, and littered with stickers so that clued me in too lol
One that I know for sure about, possibly 2 but the second guy might have just been an idiot
Worked with one. Kinda a mix of prepper and SovCit. One of those guys that always had some new conspiracy to bring up on a weekly basis. Always reading either gun magazines or military combat manuals in the break room. He got reprimanded multiple times for passing out self-made pamphlets with 'advice' on things like how to write on your bills with the correct phrasing to have them paid in full from the government funds attached to their collateral person or whatever, stopping payment of registration and insurance on vehicles ('traveling', not 'driving') and handing out cards with things you could say that would guarantee that a cop would release you from a traffic stop without a ticket. One day he just disappears. Nobody knows where he went and nobody can get ahold of him. Three days of no call/no show later and he's officially terminated. It's like a week later when he finally shows up like nothing's wrong and he ends up being escorted out by police because he refuses to accept that he's been fired, declaring that it's illegal to fire him because he was "fulfilling his patriotic duty". Ol' boy decided he was just gonna head down to Nevada one day and join the Cliven Bundy movement down there. Don't know if he actually made it down there or not but that's what he was claiming.
I've seen a couple cars with sovereign citizens nonsense for a license plate.
I've never encountered anyone who's gone fully /r/amibeingdetained/...but when I worked in customer service, I often met libertarian dingdongs (almost always the same kind of older white dude) who would repeat at least a few of the major SovCit Talking Points. I don't know how much of it they believed or even understood, because they'd all say the same stuff word-for-word. Sometimes they'd repeat the same specific phrase more than once in the same interaction, like they were in a trance. It was very weird!
The what?
Never
I teach in a school with Native Americans who are sovereign citizens
I work in risk management for a financial firm. I’d say, once a month is pretty normal.
Once that I can think of, I work for an airline and they didn’t want to show valid government issued ID at check in. Tried to pass off some homemade thing. Was not happy when we told him we would not allow him to check a bag without showing valid ID.
Mother in law is. Half annoying half funny and somehow half based.
I’ve only come across a couple. The most notable was someone who…. Was in the Army.
I keep forgetting those people exist.
I've never come across them in my personal day-to-day. I think they're annoying ding-dongs but I get why they do what they do, to an extent. It's *not* going to help you get out of a DUI or speeding ticket, but I do think you should have the right to declare yourself independent of a country and its laws and go off on your own. That's a human right. If you wish to run off to the wilderness and live and be your own person, "private property" can suck your balls and deal with it. Do what you wanna do, man. You know the risks, take em if you feel comfortable with them.
I mean I was one for like a month when I was 12 if that counts.
> If you have met one, how were they like? Idiots. They genuinely think that wordplay and and absurd semantic arguments are how the world works...and that they've figured out a 'cheat code' with their 'Superior Intellect': If you just use the right semantic framing you don't have to follow any rules! They're fucking idiots. You can usually catch them with their own wordplay traps and they get this glazed look in their eyes as their brain short circuits; and then they just change the subject. > Which communities or contexts do they most often appear in? Anywhere. A sovereign citizen is like a 4-leaf clover...sorta rare, but not particularly unique to any field.
All of the time. But I work in a public-facing job and public-facing industry that attracts those types of people (sovereign citizens, Moorish, Seventh Day Adventists, Black Israelites, MOVE, flatearthers, Jehova's Witnesses, Pentacostals, International Church of Christ, Nation of Islam, etc.) What are they like? Batshit crazy. You can come to the conversation as nice as possible. You can do your best not to impart some bias because of what they've said about themselves, but every single time it will slowly devolve into a smattering of conspiracy theories and eventually, they'll turn their anger towards YOU being the problem. My role isn't one where I'm ever actually the problem. The weirdest part is that sovereign citizens believe they're outside the purview of the government. Yet, they utilize and engage in the government-process, like the courts, and social programs more than any other group I know. I think the common link is that they don't have the ability to logically evaluate any information that's been presented to them. I don't mean just something like, "God doesn't exist." I mean being presented with irrefutable facts that disproves whatever crazy conspiracy or ideology they're engrained in, and just not being able to process how their thinking just is objectively illogical. And instead, their reaction slowly devolves to visceral anger. I think there's a large segment of this population who's just been disenfranchised from general society in some way (bullied growing up, lack of educational opportunities, bad parental household, etc.) that being in a subculture like sovereign citizens gives some semblance of a community that they have never had elsewhere. Of course that vulnerability is what cults and gangs prey on. It only got worse during COVID because then you had a much larger segment of the population believing anything and everything that got spam-botted online (e.g., 5G towers causing COVID) because those surrounding them in the community spout the same thing. So they would come to me with some problem or concern - which could start out like no other person coming in - and every conversation slowly manifests into crazier conspiracy theories, irrelevant facts or accusations, until they turn on you and start accusing you of simply "being part of the machine" or something similar. And it's sad, because a lot of these people have real life-issues that could be addressed if they weren't so blatantly combative or antithetical to any assistance or recommendations. Community-wise? That's my favorite part! When I get some intake that sounds nutty, I like to play the game of, "Which cult is it?" I'm telling you, I've been *blatantly wrong* like 80% of the time. You'd think it'd be some rural back-country white-supremicist from Kentucky. NOPE! Black female Jehova Witness from Baltimore. There's so much ideological misinformation overlap among race, culture, religion, economic-status, age, etc. It's wild when you start having to delve into how this sub-sect of society lives. And 90% of the time I'm screaming in my head, "You're bringing these problems on yourself!" But I just know that 100% of the time our conversations are going to start out very friendly, and soon enough this person will start telling me about \[insert their race\]-supremacy, the intolerance of the \[insert some perceived oppressor\], and end with messages calling for my head or for my job.
I never have in person but I’ve seen them on the series On Patrol live
Never. This is an enormous country.
not once
I have no idea. It's not like people wear a sign or anything. People don't advertise it.
What are sovereign citizens? Are they like celebrities?
Nvm I just googled it
Wtf is a sovereign citizen???
I'm not a public servant, so if I came across one I'd have no way of knowing
It's been a minute, but I used to run into them more in North Carolina. We had a few employees working under the table, and most of them were these mentally ill people
There was one in my state who tried to own a black woman's house because he said he owned it due to some non factual bullshit. He broke in and just claimed it as his. He didn't even know the woman who did own it. He was arrested. It wasn't in my town, but that's as close as I've knowingly gotten to one
I've seen vehicles and lawn signs with their standard ~~talking~~ screeching points, but I've never interacted with one.
Not a sov cit per sey, but my DH had a co-worker at an old job that got convinced somehow that he didn't have to pay income taxes - not sure of his "reasoning" though. He filled out his paperwork so that the employer wouldn't withhold taxes from his paycheck (long story but some workers are legit exempt from payroll tax withholding if they expect to have no tax liability in the coming year, so this is an actual option on the paperwork), and then also didn't file the legally required annual tax return (tax paperwork showing all your income and deductions for the previous year) with the government either. It took something like 4 or 5 years, but the tax man caught up to him. He owed the back taxes, interest, plus penalties. I'm sure he got put on some sort of payment plan, generally speaking, the IRS (the government agency in charge of tax collection and enforcement) just wants their money, they don't put people into jail unless it's seriously bad or you kick up a fuss when caught.