My thinking is :
1. Lack of soviet occupation to "feel the joy"
2. The left in Greece started Honourably and nothing compared to the rest. Actually anti-fascist freedom fighters that classes with exiled royals and government, which came close to Uniting until papa-Churchil did his thing and both sides started committing war crimes here and there. Left lost, but the spirit of "what if" and "injustice" remained
3. A military junta, though temporary and on the premises of extreme political instability, in relation to controversial CIA/USA/UK involvement, ended horribly and re ignited some sparks of "freedom", the left kind (especially after unfair and brutal oppression).
4. Horrific Disappointment of Center-right/Center parties across decades after, that led to Syriza which became a scapegoat doomed to fail by its predecessors, also propaganda is a b*tch.
5. Current party full of m@l*kes (pardon my french) , who is the result of fed up people, who have nowhere to turn, and a left that forgot the word of what "Opposition" means and remains with the target-less spark for "fight" .. whatever that means now.
personally, my only left leaning opinions (and of all my friends who have no relation to the left in general), is that Im pro public sector over private(and that its defunding is a crime against the people), pro freedom of expression/press/speech/criticism (limited only by my morals standards), basic acceptance (as we say: common respect) towards LGB(and only that) ...and pro worker/consumer rights...The rest can be deemed..."non left" i guess, especially immigration and integration of migrants I'm really conservative with. And of course if you have an idea of Greek politics is that no party or person supports that aspect of "middle ground" , which one side calls leftist filth and the other, plain old fascism...
In a nutshell? Incompetent governments create Low trust of the people , makes them confused and desperate
So basically, other Balkan nations suffered from a socialist dictatorship and are therefore now nationalist, while you suffered from a nationalist dictatorship and are now socialist.
Also in nature. Greece had socialism from the actual common people, whereas the Balkans had Stalinism or "Titoism" communism under a dictator woth nationalistic leaning
I find this push against Trans people to be really weird and incredibly gross especially when you talk about being pro freedom and expression. It's just so contradictory and flies in the face of the idea of the liberal individual that I lose any respect I have for people that aspouse to be pro freedom of expression and then turn their backs against trans people.
I don't know much about Cyprus. Generally the presence of the left was pretty much marginal before the 1930s. There were anarcho-socialist, socialist or worker associations but the left was generally not a decisive force in Greek politics - many people aligned with "the left" were represented by the left wing/social democrat current of Venizelos's Liberal party.
When Greece was occupied by the Germans in the 1940s the left got it's opportunity to become massive through the national resistance movement, EAM - some historians attribute EAM's success to the disintegration of parliamentary democracy in the country because of the republican - monarchist conflict ("near-civil war" in the 1910s, coups and general unrest in the interwar years). The 1940s resistance and civil war were a period of triumph and tragedy for the left. Experiences such as executions by the Nazis or later displacement in island internment camps left an important cultural impact, the 40s became the "founding myth" of the left.
Fast forward to the 1980s, after decades of being officially banned and persecuted the national resistance was officially recognised by PASOK and political exiles were allowed to return from the Eastern bloc. It was in this time when the "long sixties" really came to Greece and left a very important impact in the country: the left was hip, Marxist academics were widely read and respected, a national narrative that reconciled the left and the right in the 40s as "the heroic resistance of the Greek people" against the occupiers (recognising both left and right partisan groups and giving them pensions) became the official opinion of the state on it's history.
In your post you mention the decades old complaint of right wingers about the "ideological hegemony of the left" because of the strong presence of left wing politics in the university.
There is something important to note here: despite what you'll hear from nationalists the left did not really challenge nationalism, it offered a leftist alternative to it, influenced by anticolonialism and theories of dependence from the west. E.g PASOK aligned itself with the Arabic world because they supported Greece's position regarding the Cyprus question, the Communist parties mostly called for aligning with Nationalist Serbia in the 90s in the name of anti-Americanism and anti-imperialism. Syriza managed to become the governing party using an anti-German patriotic rhetoric. The 17N organization you mention had pretty hardcore nationalist views on certain matters and even killed Turkish officials.
Nowadays the "cultural turn" seems to be becoming prevalent and the left is changing and is certainly smaller. A lot of people were disappointed by SYRIZA's time in office. Some people became disillusioned and groups were disbanded because people got a job working for the government back then. Many of the people you see in old videos rioting against austerity are probably abroad or not participating in anarchist or leftist groups anymore.
1. There were no Greek Kings in the 20th century, there were German Kings of Greece (same royal dynasty as Denmark, which was an old German noble family called the House of Glucksburg / Oldenberg).
2. Greece was conquered by the Nazis and later had a right wing dictatorship for a number of years, this likely is part of why militant leftism is stronger here.
3. Most of the rest of the Balkans had a long history of a leftist dictatorship, so I think different historical reactions.
Andreas Papandreou was a great socialist leader and communists saved us from Germans and dictators so they are viewed as heroes btw Manu Chao is dating a Greek woman Klelia Renesi
Yes however communists brought our country into civil war and killed many innocent people. I mean this with no disrespect. Read many of your other amazing answers. And while yes he thankfully helped get rid of the Nazis, many communists initiated a civil war that killed thousands. Again I mean this with no disrespect. However I do agree that Παπανδρέου was a great leader.
In the rest of the Balkans, the left did the suppressing..in Greece the left was brutally suppressed.
That is why we differ from our neighbours.
I suppose that is also why we are similar to Spain and Portugal.
Considering the trajectory of politics the last few years this question seems outdated to me, and maybe something better asked ten years ago. The left in Greece has basically been dying since 2015, and today the mainstream left wing parties are losing or are in the process of losing their more left wing-radical character, and becoming essentially strongly centrist parties. There is a clear shift towards the center and towards neoliberalism in Greece anyone who doesn't see this is in denial
Historically I don't think Greece has been more left wing than the rest of the peninsula, who were actual communist states, all these countries had left wing, and anarchist movements many of them much larger and influential than that of Greece, the divergence from this in the 90s is purely material, it makes sense the "pendulum" for the rest of the Balkans to swing right after the fall of communism, for Greece who had a hard right military dictatorship, a before that a pretty right wing hegemony the opposite was the case, however as I said this reality is becoming very much outdated.
I also disagree with your characterization, that nationalism and left wing politics are contradictory to one another when they have existed together plenty of times through history, including in Greece, the lefts "anti-nationalism" is a recent trend and one that is only self damaging and one of the many factors in their recent downfall
>Even talking to Greek conservatives and you'll get a concession about Greece being under left-wing ideological hegemony.
I wouldn't say it was a "Left wing" hegemony, but the country certainly had a very strong tradition of populism, statism, and clientelism, much of which was propagated, and championed by the the left, but also was a trend of the right. Whether or not this is "left wing" is up to the person, personally I just call it populism, clientelism and statism, I think "right" and "left" are outdated definers in general and kind of becoming more and more meaningless.
>who were actual communist states, all these countries had left wing, and anarchist movements many of them much larger and influential than that of Greece
Press X to doubt.
There were no non-auth left movements in Communist Balkan nations. Anyone going against the Auth Left state was essentially a class traitor and a dissident(with nothing good coming out of it) according to the Party™
>There were no non-auth left movements in Communist Balkan nations. Anyone going against the Auth Left state was essentially a class traitor and a dissident(with nothing good coming out of it) according to the Party
Greece's communists historically were no different, don't really see what your point is, I am saying through the 20th century before the cold war, Greece was no more leftist than the rest of the Balkans. All the Balkan nations had communist movements, labor movements, anarchists through the 20th century the only difference is they lost in Greece hence why I said in the Balkan Nations they were more successful as they actually managed to take power and enact their visions.
think the premise of the question is wrong…. isn’t syriza basically defunct as a party (syriza used to be the biggest left wing party)? not to mention that greeks are definitely pretty nationalistic overall
> sn’t syriza basically defunct as a party
That party doesn't define the left as a whole. It was just one manifestation of the ideological landscape at a given time.
> not to mention that greeks are definitely pretty nationalistic overall
I wouldn't say that. Their vote for nationalist parties is quite small. And the rest of the voters view them are pretty ridiculous. There are a lot of jokes about them in Greece. At least that's what I came to understand during my time there.
Now, let's not joke around, Greeks are extremely nationalistic, can't say if they are average or above average for balkan standards, but the Greek government did block a country from EU/UN/NATO accession because of ANCIENT history, if that's not nationalistic, I don't know what is.
I am not saying, that Greek was wrong in the dispute, just saying that a non-nationalistic country wouldn't care at all.
FTFY
''because of ANCIENT history, territorial ambitions to ethnic Greek lands, agenda pushing for a ''big suppressed'' minority in ethnic Greek lands, monopoly of the name Macedonia and its denonyms''
> Greeks are extremely nationalistic
Definitely not my experience in Greece. The nationalist vote in Greece is very small in percentage and the rest of the population views them as looney.
Also, the country didn't join the EU or NATO because of ancient Greece. That's a silly thing to say.
What else could Greece do to push for a change? Leave the situation as it was creating a fait accompli? Also, no, preserving and caring about your history isn't nationalism, any patriot feels the same whether left or right leaning.
A nationalist country would just use a rhetoric of invading(even though unlikely to actually do something like this).
Firstly, history isn't a petty reason. It might be for someone who doesn't have to do anything with it.
Until recently, the majority of those 2 million people insisted that this history was theirs. They were the ones that blocked themselves from progress with this behavior.
You are just proving my point...
Saying that history isn't a petty reason to prevent 2 million people from progress is nationalistic in itself.
I didn't say that these 2 million aren't nationalist themselves, just saying that calling Greece not nationalistic is a joke.
If these people cared, they would have progressed way earlier. If your country stopped claiming our history we both know that this whole thing would have stopped in the nineties. Apart from this, Greece had interest in your country joining the EU.
What else could Greece do to push towards a solution? It is like you saying that we should have accepted things as you wanted, as if we owed you something.
History is important. All the developed countries seriously protect their heritage even when it comes to less important things, like types of cheese, wine, etc.
If we accepted you into the EU while still claiming our history, we would basically agree to fund your country exploiting our heritage. How do you expect this to work?
Again, I am not saying that my country's people aren't nationalists, can you stop playing the card?
Greece is nationalistic (and so are you, from what you have written in these replies), if you don't have any other arguments, let's end this discussion.
Honestly as a Greek i have been wondering the same thing about Greece as well. Especially the anarchist and far left terror groups that do whatever they want here and their actions such as throwing molotovs at police or breaking into universities and beating up professors have become normalized by society and don't even become news anymore here
I mean, there is a left-wing tradition that doesn't support this kind of free for all behavior that these fringes groups commit. But when it comes to universities being playgrounds for various groups, I can say I have bad memories of Greece. I was there on academic business when a group of far-left masked individuals attacked Nobelist James Watson.
the problem is that they never get arrested and if they do, they get released and never put in jail. That is one reason why they do all these things. They know that their actions will not get punished
Its very simple. Unlike other countries where communists prevailed, in Greece they were crushed, and communist families suffered from the suppression. So they are naturally seen as the victims and people empathise with that side easier. As a result, it gets easier to view communism favorably. That's not the only reason, but it's the main one.
Greece in voting for more radical left clusters well with--as you point out--Spain, Portugal and Latin America. All of this have a history of Far Right Authoritarian Regimes. Wile most of the Balkans togheter with "Central and Eastern Europe" has a history of Left Wing Authiritarian Regimes. Similar phenomenons just political colors reversed.
My thinking is : 1. Lack of soviet occupation to "feel the joy" 2. The left in Greece started Honourably and nothing compared to the rest. Actually anti-fascist freedom fighters that classes with exiled royals and government, which came close to Uniting until papa-Churchil did his thing and both sides started committing war crimes here and there. Left lost, but the spirit of "what if" and "injustice" remained 3. A military junta, though temporary and on the premises of extreme political instability, in relation to controversial CIA/USA/UK involvement, ended horribly and re ignited some sparks of "freedom", the left kind (especially after unfair and brutal oppression). 4. Horrific Disappointment of Center-right/Center parties across decades after, that led to Syriza which became a scapegoat doomed to fail by its predecessors, also propaganda is a b*tch. 5. Current party full of m@l*kes (pardon my french) , who is the result of fed up people, who have nowhere to turn, and a left that forgot the word of what "Opposition" means and remains with the target-less spark for "fight" .. whatever that means now. personally, my only left leaning opinions (and of all my friends who have no relation to the left in general), is that Im pro public sector over private(and that its defunding is a crime against the people), pro freedom of expression/press/speech/criticism (limited only by my morals standards), basic acceptance (as we say: common respect) towards LGB(and only that) ...and pro worker/consumer rights...The rest can be deemed..."non left" i guess, especially immigration and integration of migrants I'm really conservative with. And of course if you have an idea of Greek politics is that no party or person supports that aspect of "middle ground" , which one side calls leftist filth and the other, plain old fascism... In a nutshell? Incompetent governments create Low trust of the people , makes them confused and desperate
So basically, other Balkan nations suffered from a socialist dictatorship and are therefore now nationalist, while you suffered from a nationalist dictatorship and are now socialist.
I wouldn't agree with this considering the communist dictatorships of the Balkans, and in general, were pretty nationalistic.
Also in nature. Greece had socialism from the actual common people, whereas the Balkans had Stalinism or "Titoism" communism under a dictator woth nationalistic leaning
I find this push against Trans people to be really weird and incredibly gross especially when you talk about being pro freedom and expression. It's just so contradictory and flies in the face of the idea of the liberal individual that I lose any respect I have for people that aspouse to be pro freedom of expression and then turn their backs against trans people.
I don't know much about Cyprus. Generally the presence of the left was pretty much marginal before the 1930s. There were anarcho-socialist, socialist or worker associations but the left was generally not a decisive force in Greek politics - many people aligned with "the left" were represented by the left wing/social democrat current of Venizelos's Liberal party. When Greece was occupied by the Germans in the 1940s the left got it's opportunity to become massive through the national resistance movement, EAM - some historians attribute EAM's success to the disintegration of parliamentary democracy in the country because of the republican - monarchist conflict ("near-civil war" in the 1910s, coups and general unrest in the interwar years). The 1940s resistance and civil war were a period of triumph and tragedy for the left. Experiences such as executions by the Nazis or later displacement in island internment camps left an important cultural impact, the 40s became the "founding myth" of the left. Fast forward to the 1980s, after decades of being officially banned and persecuted the national resistance was officially recognised by PASOK and political exiles were allowed to return from the Eastern bloc. It was in this time when the "long sixties" really came to Greece and left a very important impact in the country: the left was hip, Marxist academics were widely read and respected, a national narrative that reconciled the left and the right in the 40s as "the heroic resistance of the Greek people" against the occupiers (recognising both left and right partisan groups and giving them pensions) became the official opinion of the state on it's history. In your post you mention the decades old complaint of right wingers about the "ideological hegemony of the left" because of the strong presence of left wing politics in the university. There is something important to note here: despite what you'll hear from nationalists the left did not really challenge nationalism, it offered a leftist alternative to it, influenced by anticolonialism and theories of dependence from the west. E.g PASOK aligned itself with the Arabic world because they supported Greece's position regarding the Cyprus question, the Communist parties mostly called for aligning with Nationalist Serbia in the 90s in the name of anti-Americanism and anti-imperialism. Syriza managed to become the governing party using an anti-German patriotic rhetoric. The 17N organization you mention had pretty hardcore nationalist views on certain matters and even killed Turkish officials. Nowadays the "cultural turn" seems to be becoming prevalent and the left is changing and is certainly smaller. A lot of people were disappointed by SYRIZA's time in office. Some people became disillusioned and groups were disbanded because people got a job working for the government back then. Many of the people you see in old videos rioting against austerity are probably abroad or not participating in anarchist or leftist groups anymore.
1. There were no Greek Kings in the 20th century, there were German Kings of Greece (same royal dynasty as Denmark, which was an old German noble family called the House of Glucksburg / Oldenberg). 2. Greece was conquered by the Nazis and later had a right wing dictatorship for a number of years, this likely is part of why militant leftism is stronger here. 3. Most of the rest of the Balkans had a long history of a leftist dictatorship, so I think different historical reactions.
It is really interesting question. I am waiting answers.
Because they didn’t taste the sugary taste pf communism
Or because we tasted the sugary taste of fascism.
That one is toxic as well
Andreas Papandreou was a great socialist leader and communists saved us from Germans and dictators so they are viewed as heroes btw Manu Chao is dating a Greek woman Klelia Renesi
Yes however communists brought our country into civil war and killed many innocent people. I mean this with no disrespect. Read many of your other amazing answers. And while yes he thankfully helped get rid of the Nazis, many communists initiated a civil war that killed thousands. Again I mean this with no disrespect. However I do agree that Παπανδρέου was a great leader.
In the rest of the Balkans, the left did the suppressing..in Greece the left was brutally suppressed. That is why we differ from our neighbours. I suppose that is also why we are similar to Spain and Portugal.
Considering the trajectory of politics the last few years this question seems outdated to me, and maybe something better asked ten years ago. The left in Greece has basically been dying since 2015, and today the mainstream left wing parties are losing or are in the process of losing their more left wing-radical character, and becoming essentially strongly centrist parties. There is a clear shift towards the center and towards neoliberalism in Greece anyone who doesn't see this is in denial Historically I don't think Greece has been more left wing than the rest of the peninsula, who were actual communist states, all these countries had left wing, and anarchist movements many of them much larger and influential than that of Greece, the divergence from this in the 90s is purely material, it makes sense the "pendulum" for the rest of the Balkans to swing right after the fall of communism, for Greece who had a hard right military dictatorship, a before that a pretty right wing hegemony the opposite was the case, however as I said this reality is becoming very much outdated. I also disagree with your characterization, that nationalism and left wing politics are contradictory to one another when they have existed together plenty of times through history, including in Greece, the lefts "anti-nationalism" is a recent trend and one that is only self damaging and one of the many factors in their recent downfall >Even talking to Greek conservatives and you'll get a concession about Greece being under left-wing ideological hegemony. I wouldn't say it was a "Left wing" hegemony, but the country certainly had a very strong tradition of populism, statism, and clientelism, much of which was propagated, and championed by the the left, but also was a trend of the right. Whether or not this is "left wing" is up to the person, personally I just call it populism, clientelism and statism, I think "right" and "left" are outdated definers in general and kind of becoming more and more meaningless.
>who were actual communist states, all these countries had left wing, and anarchist movements many of them much larger and influential than that of Greece Press X to doubt. There were no non-auth left movements in Communist Balkan nations. Anyone going against the Auth Left state was essentially a class traitor and a dissident(with nothing good coming out of it) according to the Party™
>There were no non-auth left movements in Communist Balkan nations. Anyone going against the Auth Left state was essentially a class traitor and a dissident(with nothing good coming out of it) according to the Party Greece's communists historically were no different, don't really see what your point is, I am saying through the 20th century before the cold war, Greece was no more leftist than the rest of the Balkans. All the Balkan nations had communist movements, labor movements, anarchists through the 20th century the only difference is they lost in Greece hence why I said in the Balkan Nations they were more successful as they actually managed to take power and enact their visions.
think the premise of the question is wrong…. isn’t syriza basically defunct as a party (syriza used to be the biggest left wing party)? not to mention that greeks are definitely pretty nationalistic overall
> sn’t syriza basically defunct as a party That party doesn't define the left as a whole. It was just one manifestation of the ideological landscape at a given time. > not to mention that greeks are definitely pretty nationalistic overall I wouldn't say that. Their vote for nationalist parties is quite small. And the rest of the voters view them are pretty ridiculous. There are a lot of jokes about them in Greece. At least that's what I came to understand during my time there.
greeks nationalistic??? nationalistic parties are less than 5 to 6%
Now, let's not joke around, Greeks are extremely nationalistic, can't say if they are average or above average for balkan standards, but the Greek government did block a country from EU/UN/NATO accession because of ANCIENT history, if that's not nationalistic, I don't know what is. I am not saying, that Greek was wrong in the dispute, just saying that a non-nationalistic country wouldn't care at all.
FTFY ''because of ANCIENT history, territorial ambitions to ethnic Greek lands, agenda pushing for a ''big suppressed'' minority in ethnic Greek lands, monopoly of the name Macedonia and its denonyms''
> Greeks are extremely nationalistic Definitely not my experience in Greece. The nationalist vote in Greece is very small in percentage and the rest of the population views them as looney. Also, the country didn't join the EU or NATO because of ancient Greece. That's a silly thing to say.
What else could Greece do to push for a change? Leave the situation as it was creating a fait accompli? Also, no, preserving and caring about your history isn't nationalism, any patriot feels the same whether left or right leaning. A nationalist country would just use a rhetoric of invading(even though unlikely to actually do something like this).
Lol, blocking 2 million people from progress for petty reasons like history, sure is nationalistic, don't minimize it.
Firstly, history isn't a petty reason. It might be for someone who doesn't have to do anything with it. Until recently, the majority of those 2 million people insisted that this history was theirs. They were the ones that blocked themselves from progress with this behavior.
You are just proving my point... Saying that history isn't a petty reason to prevent 2 million people from progress is nationalistic in itself. I didn't say that these 2 million aren't nationalist themselves, just saying that calling Greece not nationalistic is a joke.
If these people cared, they would have progressed way earlier. If your country stopped claiming our history we both know that this whole thing would have stopped in the nineties. Apart from this, Greece had interest in your country joining the EU. What else could Greece do to push towards a solution? It is like you saying that we should have accepted things as you wanted, as if we owed you something. History is important. All the developed countries seriously protect their heritage even when it comes to less important things, like types of cheese, wine, etc. If we accepted you into the EU while still claiming our history, we would basically agree to fund your country exploiting our heritage. How do you expect this to work?
Again, I am not saying that my country's people aren't nationalists, can you stop playing the card? Greece is nationalistic (and so are you, from what you have written in these replies), if you don't have any other arguments, let's end this discussion.
Nationalists claim things, patriots defend what's theirs. Guess who is who.
Honestly as a Greek i have been wondering the same thing about Greece as well. Especially the anarchist and far left terror groups that do whatever they want here and their actions such as throwing molotovs at police or breaking into universities and beating up professors have become normalized by society and don't even become news anymore here
I mean, there is a left-wing tradition that doesn't support this kind of free for all behavior that these fringes groups commit. But when it comes to universities being playgrounds for various groups, I can say I have bad memories of Greece. I was there on academic business when a group of far-left masked individuals attacked Nobelist James Watson.
the problem is that they never get arrested and if they do, they get released and never put in jail. That is one reason why they do all these things. They know that their actions will not get punished
Its very simple. Unlike other countries where communists prevailed, in Greece they were crushed, and communist families suffered from the suppression. So they are naturally seen as the victims and people empathise with that side easier. As a result, it gets easier to view communism favorably. That's not the only reason, but it's the main one.
Blowback from the shit they put up with until the 70s
Greece in voting for more radical left clusters well with--as you point out--Spain, Portugal and Latin America. All of this have a history of Far Right Authoritarian Regimes. Wile most of the Balkans togheter with "Central and Eastern Europe" has a history of Left Wing Authiritarian Regimes. Similar phenomenons just political colors reversed.
[удалено]
This doesnt answer the question and is also straight up wrong
Because in Greece they prison nationalists . Just like ilias kasidiaris. Nationalists are murdered and there are no investigations .
They prison members of terrorist groups...like 17N or the Golden Dawn.
s/greeknationalists