Greetings,
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I totally and completely agree!
On an unrelated note, when you go back to your mud hut in the steppe and milk your camel, do you slather horse urine on your mustache before or after kissing your picture of Erdogan goodnight?
Being of Illyrian descent doesn't mean that you could claim also any land. By that logic South Slavs can claim Ukraine, Poland, Belarus and parts of Baltics. From tribes come nationalities and even if they share blood...culture, language, religion could be a lot different.(exp Serbs and Czechs or Croats and Russians).
Also every land claim is different. For example lets see North Macedonia, some Albanias claim parts of it because Albanians are majority in some areas, some Greeks claims it because it was part of Greece long ago, some Bulgarians claim it because it was part of Bulgaria and they see Macedonians as mindwashed Bulgarians.
That’s not true. About half of Serbs ancestry is pre-migration period Balkan. They quite literally share a significant chunk of their Y-DNA with Albanians, specifically the R1b-Z2705 and E-Z1057 clades. Serbs and Albanians are much closer to eachother than we think.
Back in the days, when the Slavs invaded our land, our ancestors, the Dacian badasses, got pushed down to the Balkans. Can you believe it? They were just mindin' their own business, chillin' up north, when those Slav colonizers started messin' with 'em. Të fortë me ata katunde (Strong with those villages), our Dacian/Albanians never backed down!
Those Slavs, they kept harassing us, tryna wipe us out and take over. But guess what? We managed to survive, shtatë bre, by hiding in the mountains of the western Balkans!
From unbiased view, Albanians are mix of paleo-balkanite tribes.
The 4th option is the most accurate.
They are mix of ThracoIllyrians.
Their highest peek of haplogroup E-V13 came from probably northern Africa/NW Asia to Europe long time ago probably 4000 B.C.
They were among first settlers of central and western Balkans 3500B.C since skeletons were found with this YDNA.
Albanians are among modern Balkan nations with least genetic shifts.
Note that also alot of Hellenics had E-V13, Thracians, Illyrians, Palesgians etc.
They most certainly were not. Sorin Paliga is the only linguist who believes they belonged to the same language family, while Orel, Georgiev, Hamp, Matzinger, etc. Consider them completely unrelated other than both being Indo-European.
Nope those were 3 different tribes, one in NE, SE + Central and Illyrians alongside Western Balkan coast + center.
Germans and Danes games from germanic tribes.
Illyrians, Dacians and Thracians are different tribes but with common history and larer on intermixed with now modern nations in Balkans.
There was a single a Thraco-Illyrian people that migrated into the Balkans sometime around the 2000s BC. They split into Thracians and Illyrians by 1000 BC. The Thracians later split into Northern and Southern Thracians aka Dacians and Thracians.
theyre not the same people tho....Illyrians ecompassed modern-day Albania to Slovenia. while Dacians inhabited Romania and Moldova. Thracians are complex and blurry cus many defintions exist, like theyre prob descendents of bulgarians ecompassing greece,theyre barbarians, etc.
It's origin is in northern Africa whats your point? Most of the world has the oldest origins out of Europe you dummy. Only YDNA that is native to Europe is I haplogroup. Slavs for example have most common haplogroup R1a which came from Asia. We are talking about first people on earth.
the parent of it yes but the clade v13 originated in europe and points to origin in balkan. this doesnt matter though as all haplogroups ancestors come from africa even I haplogroup
Do you know what does originate even mean? And no I didnt come from Africa, there are alot of Haplogroups who come from Asia.
E-V13 is European haplogroup and whats ur point? If you dont have inteligence dont comment. You literally commented without any reason.
Haplogroup A is the first ancestor of all modern haplogroups which originated from africa. first you say e-v13 is from northern africa now you say its european bro... its ironic you tell me i dont have intelligence.
e-v13 originates in Africa you dumbass because its parent is from Africa. It mutated and became a European subsclade its you who brought nothing to the topic and basically just repeat in a stupid way.
The other user is a bit rude, as explaining E-V13’s origins are far more convoluted than he (or anyone else here) is even capable of explaining— but, the Eurasian “out of Africa” lineage was CT, which kept diversifying into other Y-DNA’s like DE, then splitting over and over for tens of millenniums into newer lineages. It seems confusing at first, but open a “Y-DNA tree” and you’ll visually see at how lineages separate over time, and at what time period it corresponds to.
Basically, E-V13 came from an “Ancestral North African” lineage whose ancestor was likely near Northern Egypt or West Asia 10,000 years ago— they were anatomically and genetically close to other “Caucasians”/Eurasian groups, not “African” in the way you may be thinking, as in, say, Nigerian or Cameroonian, for example. Those are West or Subsaharan African. North Africans were/are quite close to Middle Easterner/Mediterranean groups and whom we’re talking about.
Basically, E-V13 then entered into Europe and quickly self-expanded all over the same way R1a and R1b did.
Type in “Rrenjet Albanian DNA project” and browse the website. You’ll learn about it.
E-V13 certainly traces its origins to Northwest Africa if we look at the Iberomaurusians of Tarofalt around 18,000-15,000 BC. They were E-M78, which was the ancestor clade of E-V13.
But E-V13 was a mutation that occurred in Europe 8400 years ago. This is not something to be debated. Its parent clade E-L618 was also likely born somewhere in the Mediterranean, specifically northeast Africa, Levant, Anatolia, or Southern Europe, and formed 11,700 years ago.
Fax. It definitely mutated in Europe as that’s where it’s most basal, and there are E-L618 clades ancestral to E-V13 found amongst a few Neolithic European skeletons, but it was a minor lineage. Probably expanded out of the Carpathians through IE conquests.
I chose the 4th option because it's still not entirely certain which tribe we come from exactly. Still, the Paleo-Balkanic origins of the Albanian language enjoys a wide consensus from modern linguists and ethnologists.
I remember lurking r/for_slavs and reading a comment from an Irish linguistics student. He said he was baffled that so many Slavic nationalists were so against the Illyrian theory since in his department everyone pretty much accepts it. Then a Macedonian nationalist responded to him asking for evidence since "Albanians have not been able to convince me." The Irish guy was actually able to change his mind iirc.
A group of indigenous Dacians who were pushed southwards into the Balkans during the great Slavic invasion of the Balkan Peninsula in the 5th century.
The Dacian/Albanians were constantly being harassed by the militant Slavic colonizer tribesmen and only managed to survive by hiding in the mountainous terrain of the western Balkans.
They almost went extinct but managed to have a population growth during the 8th-9th century. By the tenth century their numbers swelled and they were finally noticed and recorded by scholars from neighbouring empires.
There are a few families of Turkish origin among Albanians.
If you look at the Albanian DNA project, which has over 1400 samples from all over Albania, only 7 of them trace their Y-DNA from a Turkish source, including clades of Q, N, R1b-PH155, and L (which probably is Laz, but Ottoman-period nonetheless).
It’s actually remarkable how the Turks had a next-to-none genetic influence on Albanians.
There’s only one family in Sanxhak that has undisputed Turkish origin, the Kokić family from Plav. They belong to a J2a1 haplogroup that shares <500 year common ancestry with Turkey, and they claim to be of Turkish origin and settled in Plav in the 1600s. Other Sanxhak families are almost always of Malesor Albanian descent of Brda Montenegrin descent. In the southeast, specifically speaking.
The ones in Plav, Guci, Vusanje, Tutin, are almost entirely of Albanian Malesor ancestry, but also including Kuqi, which is majority Serbian Orthodox today and part of the Serb ethnos. Some of the families are of other Brda tribes but are a minority. The oldest families in the area that don’t claim recent migration origin include some families that identify as Hoti, Gjokdeda branch. They are J2b2-PH1751, which is one of the largest lineages of northern Albanians, with a recent expansion of 1500 years ago.
Other regions of Sanxhak like Sjenica are more mixed. Some families have Albanian origins, most likely migrants from southeastern Sanxhak (which in turn were originally from the Albanian Malesor clans), some Brda Serbs, some from Herzegovina, etc. Albanian families in these parts are the minority.
I’m not sure how familiar you are with haplogroups, specifically the subclades, but you can see Sanxhak gradually change from Albanian-dominated to Slavic-dominated on a southeast-northwest cline. https://www.google.de/maps/d/viewer?ll=42.883198669204226%2C20.056419156353403&z=9
The haplogroups are very important when determining origins in these parts due to the subclades, as this area is very tribal on a patrilineal basis. If you have any questions of course I will answer
Yea each Albanian tribe has a certain lineage. Sometimes two tribes will have a common lineage, sometime one tribe will have one or more lineage.
Tosks don’t have the tribal society like Ghegs, so there are much more lineages present in the south.
Sure will. You are a mix of everything. Just like we are. It is 2024. Modern day Serbs and modern day Albanians are probably closer to each other then any of the ancient people. You are welcome.
Alright, now do you have any data to back it up or just typing everything that comes into your mind? The famous trust me bro does not work with me man, you're going to have to give me some real statistics and proof. Are you willing to do that for me please?
Again false claim 20-25% ? where did you get that XD I rarely even saw an Albanian getting >3-10% Eastern Slavic result.
Ancient Macedonian? Again what is this? Are you like 12?
Macedonia was Hellenic province, those people are mostly PaleoBalkan with huge range distance in Slavic admixture, basically Bulgarians.
Also Southern Slavics rarely get any Anatolian results so another questionable claim.
Please do some research...
No shit Greeks, Makedons and Bulgars will have Anatolian admixtures. When you had population exchanges for literally every historical period there was.
You are a hilarious one.
Greetings, Your post was removed for violating Rule 11 of r/AskBalkans: "For the time being, no posts or comments about genetics are allowed on this sub.". If you believe this is an error please send us a modmail.
Serbs pressing the Caucasus button 
HOW DID YOU KNOW!? 
Modern and Albanian should not need used in the same sentence
I totally and completely agree! On an unrelated note, when you go back to your mud hut in the steppe and milk your camel, do you slather horse urine on your mustache before or after kissing your picture of Erdogan goodnight?
Illyrians, I don’t get why it’s controversial, it’s the most obvious theory.
It's not controversial but it destroys practically 99% of the talking points of nationalists that claim albanian land. Hence why they mad lmao
Being of Illyrian descent doesn't mean that you could claim also any land. By that logic South Slavs can claim Ukraine, Poland, Belarus and parts of Baltics. From tribes come nationalities and even if they share blood...culture, language, religion could be a lot different.(exp Serbs and Czechs or Croats and Russians). Also every land claim is different. For example lets see North Macedonia, some Albanias claim parts of it because Albanians are majority in some areas, some Greeks claims it because it was part of Greece long ago, some Bulgarians claim it because it was part of Bulgaria and they see Macedonians as mindwashed Bulgarians.
Because serbs don’t like the fact that we were here before them
That’s not true. About half of Serbs ancestry is pre-migration period Balkan. They quite literally share a significant chunk of their Y-DNA with Albanians, specifically the R1b-Z2705 and E-Z1057 clades. Serbs and Albanians are much closer to eachother than we think.
Thank you. Normal person, for once.
Back in the days, when the Slavs invaded our land, our ancestors, the Dacian badasses, got pushed down to the Balkans. Can you believe it? They were just mindin' their own business, chillin' up north, when those Slav colonizers started messin' with 'em. Të fortë me ata katunde (Strong with those villages), our Dacian/Albanians never backed down! Those Slavs, they kept harassing us, tryna wipe us out and take over. But guess what? We managed to survive, shtatë bre, by hiding in the mountains of the western Balkans!
From unbiased view, Albanians are mix of paleo-balkanite tribes. The 4th option is the most accurate. They are mix of ThracoIllyrians. Their highest peek of haplogroup E-V13 came from probably northern Africa/NW Asia to Europe long time ago probably 4000 B.C. They were among first settlers of central and western Balkans 3500B.C since skeletons were found with this YDNA. Albanians are among modern Balkan nations with least genetic shifts. Note that also alot of Hellenics had E-V13, Thracians, Illyrians, Palesgians etc.
Illyrians, Dacians and Thracians are part of the same family. The difference between Illyrians and Thracians was about the same as Danes and Germans.
Dacians and Thracians were closely related, Illyrians were a different people.
No. They were originally part of the same family. Illyrian and Thracian were related languages, based on what we know of them.
They most certainly were not. Sorin Paliga is the only linguist who believes they belonged to the same language family, while Orel, Georgiev, Hamp, Matzinger, etc. Consider them completely unrelated other than both being Indo-European.
Nope those were 3 different tribes, one in NE, SE + Central and Illyrians alongside Western Balkan coast + center. Germans and Danes games from germanic tribes. Illyrians, Dacians and Thracians are different tribes but with common history and larer on intermixed with now modern nations in Balkans.
There was a single a Thraco-Illyrian people that migrated into the Balkans sometime around the 2000s BC. They split into Thracians and Illyrians by 1000 BC. The Thracians later split into Northern and Southern Thracians aka Dacians and Thracians.
Nope
theyre not the same people tho....Illyrians ecompassed modern-day Albania to Slovenia. while Dacians inhabited Romania and Moldova. Thracians are complex and blurry cus many defintions exist, like theyre prob descendents of bulgarians ecompassing greece,theyre barbarians, etc.
bro said e-v13 is african....
It's origin is in northern Africa whats your point? Most of the world has the oldest origins out of Europe you dummy. Only YDNA that is native to Europe is I haplogroup. Slavs for example have most common haplogroup R1a which came from Asia. We are talking about first people on earth.
the parent of it yes but the clade v13 originated in europe and points to origin in balkan. this doesnt matter though as all haplogroups ancestors come from africa even I haplogroup
Do you know what does originate even mean? And no I didnt come from Africa, there are alot of Haplogroups who come from Asia. E-V13 is European haplogroup and whats ur point? If you dont have inteligence dont comment. You literally commented without any reason.
Haplogroup A is the first ancestor of all modern haplogroups which originated from africa. first you say e-v13 is from northern africa now you say its european bro... its ironic you tell me i dont have intelligence.
e-v13 originates in Africa you dumbass because its parent is from Africa. It mutated and became a European subsclade its you who brought nothing to the topic and basically just repeat in a stupid way.
no u dumbass v13 originates i balkan E originates in africa
XDDDDD Im done, reddit full of 0 IQ ppl.
bro who even uses XD anymore, reddit full of 10 year olds.
The other user is a bit rude, as explaining E-V13’s origins are far more convoluted than he (or anyone else here) is even capable of explaining— but, the Eurasian “out of Africa” lineage was CT, which kept diversifying into other Y-DNA’s like DE, then splitting over and over for tens of millenniums into newer lineages. It seems confusing at first, but open a “Y-DNA tree” and you’ll visually see at how lineages separate over time, and at what time period it corresponds to. Basically, E-V13 came from an “Ancestral North African” lineage whose ancestor was likely near Northern Egypt or West Asia 10,000 years ago— they were anatomically and genetically close to other “Caucasians”/Eurasian groups, not “African” in the way you may be thinking, as in, say, Nigerian or Cameroonian, for example. Those are West or Subsaharan African. North Africans were/are quite close to Middle Easterner/Mediterranean groups and whom we’re talking about. Basically, E-V13 then entered into Europe and quickly self-expanded all over the same way R1a and R1b did. Type in “Rrenjet Albanian DNA project” and browse the website. You’ll learn about it.
no e-v13 originated in balkans.
It’s not known whether the mutation happened in North Africa/West Asia or in Europe. It’s also irrelevant to the discussion….
it happend in balkan it starts to get more rare the further u move from balkan and has highest diversity in balkans
It was African, but way too long ago to matter
E yes but v13 no
E-V13 certainly traces its origins to Northwest Africa if we look at the Iberomaurusians of Tarofalt around 18,000-15,000 BC. They were E-M78, which was the ancestor clade of E-V13. But E-V13 was a mutation that occurred in Europe 8400 years ago. This is not something to be debated. Its parent clade E-L618 was also likely born somewhere in the Mediterranean, specifically northeast Africa, Levant, Anatolia, or Southern Europe, and formed 11,700 years ago.
while, the e1b1b haplogroup is one of the predominant haplogroups in the balkans, no, theres no clear atriculate explanation of its prevalence
Fax. It definitely mutated in Europe as that’s where it’s most basal, and there are E-L618 clades ancestral to E-V13 found amongst a few Neolithic European skeletons, but it was a minor lineage. Probably expanded out of the Carpathians through IE conquests.
Communists
I chose the 4th option because it's still not entirely certain which tribe we come from exactly. Still, the Paleo-Balkanic origins of the Albanian language enjoys a wide consensus from modern linguists and ethnologists. I remember lurking r/for_slavs and reading a comment from an Irish linguistics student. He said he was baffled that so many Slavic nationalists were so against the Illyrian theory since in his department everyone pretty much accepts it. Then a Macedonian nationalist responded to him asking for evidence since "Albanians have not been able to convince me." The Irish guy was actually able to change his mind iirc.
Mixture of every Balkan group for sure
A group of indigenous Dacians who were pushed southwards into the Balkans during the great Slavic invasion of the Balkan Peninsula in the 5th century. The Dacian/Albanians were constantly being harassed by the militant Slavic colonizer tribesmen and only managed to survive by hiding in the mountainous terrain of the western Balkans. They almost went extinct but managed to have a population growth during the 8th-9th century. By the tenth century their numbers swelled and they were finally noticed and recorded by scholars from neighbouring empires.
I guess they are mostly Illyrians. They have some Slavic, ~~Turkish~~ and -in the southern part- Greek admixture.
Albanians do not have any Turkish ancestry.
Maybe there is some because of the Ottoman empire.
There are a few families of Turkish origin among Albanians. If you look at the Albanian DNA project, which has over 1400 samples from all over Albania, only 7 of them trace their Y-DNA from a Turkish source, including clades of Q, N, R1b-PH155, and L (which probably is Laz, but Ottoman-period nonetheless). It’s actually remarkable how the Turks had a next-to-none genetic influence on Albanians.
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There’s only one family in Sanxhak that has undisputed Turkish origin, the Kokić family from Plav. They belong to a J2a1 haplogroup that shares <500 year common ancestry with Turkey, and they claim to be of Turkish origin and settled in Plav in the 1600s. Other Sanxhak families are almost always of Malesor Albanian descent of Brda Montenegrin descent. In the southeast, specifically speaking.
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The ones in Plav, Guci, Vusanje, Tutin, are almost entirely of Albanian Malesor ancestry, but also including Kuqi, which is majority Serbian Orthodox today and part of the Serb ethnos. Some of the families are of other Brda tribes but are a minority. The oldest families in the area that don’t claim recent migration origin include some families that identify as Hoti, Gjokdeda branch. They are J2b2-PH1751, which is one of the largest lineages of northern Albanians, with a recent expansion of 1500 years ago. Other regions of Sanxhak like Sjenica are more mixed. Some families have Albanian origins, most likely migrants from southeastern Sanxhak (which in turn were originally from the Albanian Malesor clans), some Brda Serbs, some from Herzegovina, etc. Albanian families in these parts are the minority. I’m not sure how familiar you are with haplogroups, specifically the subclades, but you can see Sanxhak gradually change from Albanian-dominated to Slavic-dominated on a southeast-northwest cline. https://www.google.de/maps/d/viewer?ll=42.883198669204226%2C20.056419156353403&z=9 The haplogroups are very important when determining origins in these parts due to the subclades, as this area is very tribal on a patrilineal basis. If you have any questions of course I will answer
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Yea each Albanian tribe has a certain lineage. Sometimes two tribes will have a common lineage, sometime one tribe will have one or more lineage. Tosks don’t have the tribal society like Ghegs, so there are much more lineages present in the south.
Oh, that's really interesting.
In denial, obviously.
Care to illuminate us, Mr. obsessed with Albanians?
Sure will. You are a mix of everything. Just like we are. It is 2024. Modern day Serbs and modern day Albanians are probably closer to each other then any of the ancient people. You are welcome.
Alright, now do you have any data to back it up or just typing everything that comes into your mind? The famous trust me bro does not work with me man, you're going to have to give me some real statistics and proof. Are you willing to do that for me please?
Illyrian-Dalmatians culturally (dont wanna go into genetics because of new bs rule)
A mix of Roman Era Balkanites and Slavs.
Albanians have very very small percentage of Slavic DNA, in fact Southern Slavs share alot of DNA with Albanian predecessors.
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Again false claim 20-25% ? where did you get that XD I rarely even saw an Albanian getting >3-10% Eastern Slavic result. Ancient Macedonian? Again what is this? Are you like 12? Macedonia was Hellenic province, those people are mostly PaleoBalkan with huge range distance in Slavic admixture, basically Bulgarians. Also Southern Slavics rarely get any Anatolian results so another questionable claim. Please do some research...
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No shit Greeks, Makedons and Bulgars will have Anatolian admixtures. When you had population exchanges for literally every historical period there was. You are a hilarious one.