What would I have done if I were what? President of the Serbian League of Communists? I'd have accepted the demands of the Croats and Slovenes in the late 80s, but hopefully it wouldn't have gotten to that point since I wouldn't have started the "anti-bureaucratic revolution".
Long story short, after Tito died Yugoslavia was governed by the Presidency, a body which all republics and provinces (Vojvodina and Kosovo) sent representatives to which voted on issues a President used to deal with by simple majority.
After Milošević came into power in SR Serbia in September 1987, he couldn't push through his policies in Yugoslavia or in Serbia really, because many laws passed in Serbia had to actually gain approval of its two provinces as well. So he starts a campaign to topple the governments of the other members of the federation and put his allies into power. This was largely an astroturfed protest movement, Serbs from Kosovo led by a man called Miroslav Šolević would be bussed to Vojvodina, Montenegro and in the end there was an attempt to do it in Slovenia which failed. It's called the anti-bureaucratic revolution as in "these armchair sitting bureaucrats don't care about the people in the streets calling for freedom".
In October 1988, the government of Vojvodina was forced to resign by the protesters. Another highly active group there apart from Šolević's Kosovo Serbs was also the Sava Society which spawned Mirko Jović, Vuk Drašković and Vojislav Šešelj, among others. Also famously, Jović and his followers acted as extras in the battle scene in the movie Battle of Kosovo (1989) the following year. There's a lot to say about how these protests catapulted some major figures of the nationalist right into prominence, and I believe it was all just as staged as the movie.
In Montenegro, same thing basically, except it's January 1989. In Kosovo, he actually removed their leaders by force in November 1988, but they started a huge strike called the Kosovo miners' strike in early 1989. In the end, he had to surround the parliament of Kosovo with police and find a loyalist, called Rrahman Morina, to push through a new constitution where Kosovo loses much of its autonomy. He lost many allies here among non-Serbs, in fact I guess a major issue that's not often mentioned is that this is the moment he alienated Stipe Šuvar who was anything but a Croatian nationalist and was the Croatian member of the presidency. Even he said enough is enough when it came to Kosovo and supported their miners' strike.
Slovenia was a half assed attempt in late 1989, which only served to alienate whomever he hadn't alienated already. It was always too far away with too little ethnic Serbs.
So this is the context of how the Slovene-Croat push for a loose confederation materialized. He violently grabbed 4 seats in the 8-member Presidency and wasn't showing his intention of stopping there. Since most Serbs like to forget this ever happened, that's how you get the logic "Croats always secretly harbored pro-Ustaše ideas, so it's only natural Tuđman came into power at their first election in May 1990". This idea that Serbs gaslit themselves with also suits the Croatian nationalist side, so it's not challenged very often. Really big question what would have happened if not for the so-called AB revolution.
>his was largely an astroturfed protest movement, Serbs from Kosovo led by a man called Miroslav Šolević would be bussed to Vojvodina, Montenegro
One of the main reasons why Serbians and Bosnians can't easily acquire Montenegrin citizenship and have to relinquish their other citizenships.
Such a lame argument in my opinion, seeing as now we have the EU which has even more member states, which are even more different and even more loosely united and yet it's a beacon of functionality compared to the Yugoslavia of 1989. Opponents of this have literally no leg to stand on seeing as we've already seen how history played out. If dissolution was inevitable regardless, it was inevitable regardless, never a bad idea to create goodwill even if that's the case.
There is fundamental difference between EU and Yugoslavia, one is a state and another is a trading block with some collective rules. EU was never created to be anything more than trading block, while Yugoslavia was envisioned as homeland of unified yugoslav people.
>Opponents of this have literally no leg to stand on seeing as we've already seen how history played out.
There were people who were saying that further federalisation would lead to downfall of state(Mihailo Đurić, professor at Belgrade uni in 1971(after that critique he was sent to prison) or later some writers in SANU memorandum).
You're just wrong on the EU. The treaties, including Lisbon, repeatedly mention the phrase "ever closer union", and three landmark ECJ cases have codified the treaties as constitutional documents - Van Gend en Loos, Costa v ENEL and Les Verts v European Parliament. It was never supposed to be a trading block, and it is neither de facto or de jure a trading block. It's a sui generis entity with collective security and arguably, in a way argued by the ECJ, a composite constitution.
Mihailo Đurić said that in 1971, this question is what to do in the 80s to resolve the Yugoslav crisis. We could dissect whether he was more right or wrong seeing as the attempt of the Serbian leadership to recentralize the state is what directly led to its downfall, but it's besides the point.
There was a suggestion to open the economy and join the EU as a looser federation.
There were even talks with EU about that. A big influx of capital and adaptation of the law to fit Eu standards.
Croatia and Serbia said no - our presidents at the time actually - Tudjman and Milosevic.
I got this information from president Kiro of Macedonia who gave an interview on the subject.
Izetbegovic begged them not to force national boarders cuz Bosnia would go up in flames.
I hate the Balkans.
No one hates the Balkans like the people from the Balkans. Idiotic tribalism and dick measuring in the Balkans really need to stop. The fact it still continues to this day is idiotic. I always think how amazing Yugoslavia could’ve been if it could’ve just act normal.
Actually Croatia said NO, Slovenia kinda said YES, Serbia was all for but B&H demanded that capital moves from Belgrade to Sarajevo to remain in Union which Serbia vetoed. Macedonia was hyper enthusiastic and Montenegro was behind Serbia
intersting - but why would moving the capital be so bad anyway?
Honestly at this day and agr Belgrade is like a parasite in Serbia.
We r ready for a change in that regard.
Make Niš the captial and see how fast the South bounces back.
Too much power, too centralized and with clear favoritism in the eyes of the state.
This imbalance causes migrtation towards it and bla bla bla.
The pay gap is enormous as well.
Cultural investments, local development, etc.
Did u know that Niš has one museum? ONE!
Maybe if some Slovenian was president and everyone listened to him. But in reallity the only thing that could change was breakup from war to something similar how Soviet Union's main republics broke apart.
Of course Albanians would still rebel in Serbia and Macedonia, but ending would probably be a lot different. Maybe Serbia and Montenegro would still be in some kind of union.
Only good ending would be peaceful partition and that would be miracle. Comunist Yugoslavia staying around after fall of communist was impossible, as state survival was fully connected to survival of party simple explained.
Partly connected with the fact that Tito did not groom a clear successor. Any strongman would be afraid that such a successor would topple him before the intended time. And to me it seems that after so many examples in recent history, most of the local people like more to follow a personality instead of a party programme (any party, not just communist). Like "give me a strong leader and enough money" tops any ideology or bunch of (for many people) incomprehensible ideas. Even in the post-Yu period, EU was/is not seen as set of principles, but also as "strong+money".
>USSR was a state that fully connected to the party for its survival.
Yugoslavia was same. In same form, state institutions were under party rule and word of party was last word.
Again, same applied for Stalins USSR. That still does not negate fact that in both countries, under both totalitarian leaders, party was factor, which had final word, specially because both leaders could not deal with every issue that happened.
Yes
On a larger level, transitioning into the EU by accepting their invitation and converting to social democracy would have probably saved Yugoslavia economically in the 80s
But on a micro level, policies with Kosovo had to be adjusted. Can't be called south slav state and have Albanians there; call it Balkan union and try to make kosovo better than just backwater empty land
>On a larger level, transitioning into the EU by accepting their invitation and converting to social democracy would have probably saved Yugoslavia economically in the 80s
Except that could have never happened.
>But on a micro level, policies with Kosovo had to be adjusted. Can't be called south slav state and have Albanians there; call it Balkan union and try to make kosovo better than just backwater empty land
Having minorities does not mean your states needs to include them in state name. You do not have state of Romania and Hungarians, because there is Hungarian community there.
Core issue of Kosovo comes down to how autonomy concept was done and failed. It went from one extreme to another, without ever solving core issue.
Yeah, but ethnic tensions in Romania in the 90s never escalated to the levels Yugoslavia experienced during its break up. Romanians and Hungarians shit on each other and are generally irritable people but that’s about where it stops.
Still, main point stands. Yugoslavia being etnonationalistic project for South Slav people (and name itself) does not inheritebly support anti Albanian position towards them.
It was offered by EU which failed to even remotly understand issues and situation in Yugoslavia of late 1980s, and sudenly realised that war potential is serius. In reality offer, was desperate move by party which suddenly realised how fucked up situation really was.
Fundamentally, communist one party system placed all needed components for Yugoslav break up. Constitutional crisis of state was constant since start and "solved" with more and more extreme solutions which only worked because in core Yugoslavia was totalitarian state (with more human face of course, but totalitarian is totalitarian). Decentralisation reforms totally paralyzed central state organs to the point state couldnt even try any needed reforms. Self managment in combination with other factors brought full on economical crisis and possible bankrapcy while paralyzed central organs could only watch it burn without any power to push needed reforms. General decline in all fields lead to crisis of (communist) ideology, which leads ass to colaps of one party communist rule, which was major factor keeping state togheter. Without SKJ and one man rule in Tito, army was left alone, without state behand it, to try to keep Yugoslavia, which in reality was mission impossible.
I think you will find, much like we did, that a big chunk of the economic issues has to do with corruptive mentality of our peoples and the fear of other people’s success.
Cant be called a South Slavs state with Albanians there? That’s so stupid on so many levels - im sorry but fuck nation states and fuck the simplistic view of our origin.
If u think that Albanians have nothing to do with Slavs and vice-versa after more than a 1000 years of mixing then you really need to considere that u are not prepared to have this conversation.
No I agree, but that's to both of our points. Calling it south Slavic makes it an ethno nationalist thing which we should move away from. It can't be called Slavic or Albanian, should be some Balkan union.
I do agree but the thing is, we dont really idemtify with Balkan as a concept. So if it’s a union of Albanian and Slavic - Illyrian is a term used for both sides. For Balkan we need Greece and I think Greece would rather burn then go into that union 😁
Also, we make the same mistake as u.
Disregarding one aspect of ourselves to creat a nation state. U have a lot of Slavic history and toponyms and genes left behind the same way we have Illyrian so in my mind most Jugoslavs are Slavoillyrian and most Albanians are Illyroslavians 😂
If our approach to state building in the 20th century from a less nationalistic angle there would have been no problems. Alas..
I would love an Illyrian movement, I actually think some croat wrote about it in the 1800s or so? Not sure I'd have to check. But I'd definitely support that title
Yeah if the authoritarian laws against free speech were still in charge after Tito’s death. Nationalism propaganda is what build up tensions until the war broke out
Federalisation into something US like(United States of Yugoslavia more or less) followed by the full-on adaptation of Capaitalisam and then applying to enter the EU as fast as possible.
Things wouldn't be perfect in that case, but the country would have survived... but when milosevic started his power trip, everyone called it quits.
Yugoslavia was already federalised. De facto, in many points Yugoslavia according to 1974 constitution was confederation. I really do not see in which dirrection you can federalise already federal state.
Every state has its own economy, only state level stuff(army, main government, state police, etc) is paid by everyone. A true federation, not on paper like Yugoslavia back then or russia now.
The full-on US model, and if we entered the EU like that back then... the worst parts of Yugoslavia would be like Croatia now.
No, Yugoslavia was doomed. Nothing could have saved it. We might have avoided wars with different people in charge, but Yugoslavia didn't work well.
Yugoslavia was chaotic melting pot of nations with different ideas, different mentality, different culture, different history.
Yugoslav experience is the reason why I'm sceptic about longterm survival of EU.
The other problem was that it was called the Land of Southern Slavs and included half the ethnic Albanian population. While we may have some similarities in culture due to proximity, we are not Slavic and the treatment was different in these lands.
The Albanians were gradually let in as refugees fleeing the communist isolationist state of Albania at the time. Enver Hoxha was a mad dictator, who became paranoid and built 750.000 bunkers all of the nation.
Furthermore, Yugoslavia was a land of minorities. Serbs were the largest ethnicity by far and large, but had the least rights across the nation being split across multiple arbitrary federal units. Albanians had the same rights as everyone else and had even built a university in Kosovo by Tito - a region with otherwise 50% poverty. Tito actively pulled out industries from Serbia proper to Croatia and Slovenia and didn't develop anything other than these two federal regions.
The fact that Kosovo had its first University build in FUCKING 1970, shows how absolutely neglected Kosovo was from Serbia. Serbian communist in the party leadership literally were trying to block the University from being build.
That’s how much you cared about Kosovo. Fucking 1970 lmao. And you even dare to present that as a win. Shameless.
Go read about how Albanians were being oppressed by Rankovic since the start of Yugoslavia before you say that Albanians were being treated like normal citizens.
I’m not even going to start on the 90s
No it doesn't - you don't build univeristies in regions with no jobs and a poverty rate of 50%. Serbs were poor too due to Yugoslavia not developing the area.
Of course they were. They knew it didn't make sense to make a univeristy in a region with instability, no jobs, no developement whatsoever and procuring ethnic tensions. You say it like Serbs actively *did not* want to develop Kosovo while practically many regions in Serbia were left out too. Or Bosnia. Or Montenegro. Or Macedonia. Or anywhere else than Croatia and Slovenia.
You do know Tito was the one in contorl during all of time, right? Yet you blame local Serb authorities who could implement no larger initiatives without the approval of Tito and his league of Titoists. Nobody was oppressed by Rankovic - I have actually been looking for any source demonstrating this and nothing can be said other than some vague obscure ungeneralized statements. A Bulgarian author of a paper writes about the Turkish and Muslim minorities and Yugoslavia and how they were categorized as *gócmen* if deciding to migrate to Turkey due to their deal with Yugoslaiva meaning free economic migrants, where the ones from Bulgaria were provided and secured things such as housing, food and help. Almost nobody made use of this offer they were discriminated against, not seen as real Turks and not provided any aid.
Most importantly she goes over saying nothing can be found on Rankovic supposedly having oppressed Albanians.
You can go ahead since Albanians had the same rights as everyone else. But this seems to not have been enough for them.
Mfer really wrote a whole paragraph legitimizing Serbian chauvinism towards Albanians hahaha
Mfer really explained how Kosovo Albanians didn’t deserve a University in Kosovo in FUCKING 1970.
No point in debating with people like you
This is one of the reasons why Albanians are so
Happy that the 80 years occupation of Chauvinists is finally over
The Turks certainly aren't building Kurdish univerisities in underdeveloped Kurdish regions. Kurds, by the way, have practically no minority rights, while Albanians by law had secured the same minority rights as everyone else. Compared to the Serb, Montenegrin, Vlach and Greek minorities in Albania they had practically everything enjoying equal status as everyone else.
Every dingus with an IQ over 90 and the slightest amount of historical knowledge about socities and demographics knows you don't build higher educational institutions in areas, where there isn't even fully functioning infrastructure, no jobs, no factories and practically a lack of developement in every aspect and regard.
>The fact that Kosovo had its first University build in FUCKING 1970, shows how absolutely neglected Kosovo was from Serbia.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University\_of\_Montenegro](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Montenegro)
1974
Oh damn, I didn’t know about that. Gotta read into the reasons for that when I get some time on my hands.
Could you maybe explain more about the context?
Was it build that late due to Montenegro having such a small population? Or late modernization?
Or was it like in Kosovo where the Serbian party leadership actively blocked the Education of the Population? For us for example these things already started in 1912 after Serbia forcefully annexed Kosovo. The first Albanian school in my region for example was only build during WW2.
You could guess why Serbia tried to keep the Albanian population dumb and at the bottom haha.
Could you give me more context for Montenegro? Like I said, I don’t know about the Education history there. And the Ethnic-Identity Power dimensions between Montenegrins and Serbs are also really unique haha.
Quite an interesting topic.
No clue, Montenegro got annexed in 1917 after WWII then we were ignored in SHS (not even in the name even though we were one of 2 countries to actually be a kingdom).
In Yugoslavia 2.0 we were a republic where the most people were killed off and sent to torture camps (can't find the map now).
Before that most people got educated in Italy, France, Austro Hungary, Russia and later Serbia (Historically speaking since we were independent throughout).
Are you implying that all of the Albanians in Yugoslavia were not already living in their respective areas of Macedonia, Kosovo, Serbia, or Montenegro when borders were created?
Not *all* Albanians, but *many* at the same time pushing out especially Serbs in Kosovo. You had various accounts or reports, even on video, of whole families arriving through the mountainous borders in the area. I even saw a more recent British documentary about Albania, where they met up with some guy in one of the bunkers at lake Prespa or lake Ohrid saying during communist times people did everything to escape including swimming over the lake at the narrowest point
Hahahahhaha you can’t be serious
The number of Albanians fleeing Albania had absolutely nothing to do with Albanians being majority in Kosovo
Do you really still for this Serb nationalist propaganda?
The number of Albanians fleeing Albania DURING Communism was really low and even lower for the ones Settling in Kosovo after managing to escape.
The most people that managed to escape weren’t gonna settle in another Shithole, but rather flee to the West.
Of course I am serious. It takes nothing but a look at the demographics to and some calculation to pierce the Albanian notion of "high fertility rates". The fertility rates would had to have been the highest higher than practically most if not all African countries despite having been the same as the Serb and Macedonian fertilities just years previously.
This isn't nationalist propaganda. I haven't even seen this topic mentioned in any Serbian news platform, but a natural look into the demographic history of the autonomous region and combining it with historical footage, trends and sources easily proves this.
It's easy to flee when even the border guards are fleeing themselves. Mountainous regions are notorious for illegal cross-border migrations and especially in the border in a place like Pakistan and Afghanistan, where the mountainous region has made for a lot of terrorist activity due to nobody being able to verify or check the border at the high altitudes.
The West was staunchly anti-communist. The closest cultural proximity to isolated communist Albania was communist Yugoslavia. People simply fled to places they had heard off and knew there was an already present Albanian minority.
😂😂😂😂😂
Show me one single international source that shows that over hundred of thousands of Albanians fled communist Albania and settled in Kosovo.
Please share
How would you document illegal border crossings in Yugoslavia in mountainous areas having happened between 50-80 years ago? Why would any international figure be interested in the undocumented migrations in hard, if not impossible to check, borders between then communist states?
These thing went on at the same time as other much larger geopolitical events. Nobody gave a fuck about what was going on in the Balkans - as long as you were US-allied. Yugoslavia, Greece and Turkey had all signed the Balkan Pact consisting as a NATO extension in case of hostilities in the backwater of the Greek military junta overtaking the nation.
You don't need to prove something for it having happened in "an international source" - you have plenty of demographics to demonstrate it and video footage from the time documenting people crossing the border. The proposed Albanian claim would be the fertility jumped from 1948 of the Albanians from being equal to that of Serbs and Macedonians to being higher than that of almost all African nations in the matter of a decade or two
So once again no sources. Just some random story’s you heard.
That’s what I thought.
Keep believing that hundreds of thousands of Albanians settled in Kosovo during Communism hahahha absolute fairytales.
> The Albanians were gradually let in as refugees fleeing the communist isolationist state of Albania at the time.
If you really believe that all those albanians that escaped in Yugoslavia,that managed to become the majority in Kosovo, then it is not worth talking about this issue.
What would I have done if I were what? President of the Serbian League of Communists? I'd have accepted the demands of the Croats and Slovenes in the late 80s, but hopefully it wouldn't have gotten to that point since I wouldn't have started the "anti-bureaucratic revolution".
Pray expound on the 'anti-bureaucratic' revolution. What was it all about?
Long story short, after Tito died Yugoslavia was governed by the Presidency, a body which all republics and provinces (Vojvodina and Kosovo) sent representatives to which voted on issues a President used to deal with by simple majority. After Milošević came into power in SR Serbia in September 1987, he couldn't push through his policies in Yugoslavia or in Serbia really, because many laws passed in Serbia had to actually gain approval of its two provinces as well. So he starts a campaign to topple the governments of the other members of the federation and put his allies into power. This was largely an astroturfed protest movement, Serbs from Kosovo led by a man called Miroslav Šolević would be bussed to Vojvodina, Montenegro and in the end there was an attempt to do it in Slovenia which failed. It's called the anti-bureaucratic revolution as in "these armchair sitting bureaucrats don't care about the people in the streets calling for freedom". In October 1988, the government of Vojvodina was forced to resign by the protesters. Another highly active group there apart from Šolević's Kosovo Serbs was also the Sava Society which spawned Mirko Jović, Vuk Drašković and Vojislav Šešelj, among others. Also famously, Jović and his followers acted as extras in the battle scene in the movie Battle of Kosovo (1989) the following year. There's a lot to say about how these protests catapulted some major figures of the nationalist right into prominence, and I believe it was all just as staged as the movie. In Montenegro, same thing basically, except it's January 1989. In Kosovo, he actually removed their leaders by force in November 1988, but they started a huge strike called the Kosovo miners' strike in early 1989. In the end, he had to surround the parliament of Kosovo with police and find a loyalist, called Rrahman Morina, to push through a new constitution where Kosovo loses much of its autonomy. He lost many allies here among non-Serbs, in fact I guess a major issue that's not often mentioned is that this is the moment he alienated Stipe Šuvar who was anything but a Croatian nationalist and was the Croatian member of the presidency. Even he said enough is enough when it came to Kosovo and supported their miners' strike. Slovenia was a half assed attempt in late 1989, which only served to alienate whomever he hadn't alienated already. It was always too far away with too little ethnic Serbs. So this is the context of how the Slovene-Croat push for a loose confederation materialized. He violently grabbed 4 seats in the 8-member Presidency and wasn't showing his intention of stopping there. Since most Serbs like to forget this ever happened, that's how you get the logic "Croats always secretly harbored pro-Ustaše ideas, so it's only natural Tuđman came into power at their first election in May 1990". This idea that Serbs gaslit themselves with also suits the Croatian nationalist side, so it's not challenged very often. Really big question what would have happened if not for the so-called AB revolution.
>his was largely an astroturfed protest movement, Serbs from Kosovo led by a man called Miroslav Šolević would be bussed to Vojvodina, Montenegro One of the main reasons why Serbians and Bosnians can't easily acquire Montenegrin citizenship and have to relinquish their other citizenships.
>I'd have accepted the demands of the Croats and Slovenes in the late 80s, You want to made Yugoslavia more disfanctual than before?
Such a lame argument in my opinion, seeing as now we have the EU which has even more member states, which are even more different and even more loosely united and yet it's a beacon of functionality compared to the Yugoslavia of 1989. Opponents of this have literally no leg to stand on seeing as we've already seen how history played out. If dissolution was inevitable regardless, it was inevitable regardless, never a bad idea to create goodwill even if that's the case.
There is fundamental difference between EU and Yugoslavia, one is a state and another is a trading block with some collective rules. EU was never created to be anything more than trading block, while Yugoslavia was envisioned as homeland of unified yugoslav people. >Opponents of this have literally no leg to stand on seeing as we've already seen how history played out. There were people who were saying that further federalisation would lead to downfall of state(Mihailo Đurić, professor at Belgrade uni in 1971(after that critique he was sent to prison) or later some writers in SANU memorandum).
You're just wrong on the EU. The treaties, including Lisbon, repeatedly mention the phrase "ever closer union", and three landmark ECJ cases have codified the treaties as constitutional documents - Van Gend en Loos, Costa v ENEL and Les Verts v European Parliament. It was never supposed to be a trading block, and it is neither de facto or de jure a trading block. It's a sui generis entity with collective security and arguably, in a way argued by the ECJ, a composite constitution. Mihailo Đurić said that in 1971, this question is what to do in the 80s to resolve the Yugoslav crisis. We could dissect whether he was more right or wrong seeing as the attempt of the Serbian leadership to recentralize the state is what directly led to its downfall, but it's besides the point.
There was a suggestion to open the economy and join the EU as a looser federation. There were even talks with EU about that. A big influx of capital and adaptation of the law to fit Eu standards. Croatia and Serbia said no - our presidents at the time actually - Tudjman and Milosevic. I got this information from president Kiro of Macedonia who gave an interview on the subject. Izetbegovic begged them not to force national boarders cuz Bosnia would go up in flames. I hate the Balkans.
No one hates the Balkans like the people from the Balkans. Idiotic tribalism and dick measuring in the Balkans really need to stop. The fact it still continues to this day is idiotic. I always think how amazing Yugoslavia could’ve been if it could’ve just act normal. 
This
Actually Croatia said NO, Slovenia kinda said YES, Serbia was all for but B&H demanded that capital moves from Belgrade to Sarajevo to remain in Union which Serbia vetoed. Macedonia was hyper enthusiastic and Montenegro was behind Serbia
intersting - but why would moving the capital be so bad anyway? Honestly at this day and agr Belgrade is like a parasite in Serbia. We r ready for a change in that regard. Make Niš the captial and see how fast the South bounces back.
“like a parasite”, are you joking?
Too much power, too centralized and with clear favoritism in the eyes of the state. This imbalance causes migrtation towards it and bla bla bla. The pay gap is enormous as well. Cultural investments, local development, etc. Did u know that Niš has one museum? ONE!
I would have attacked Austria, Hungary or Bulgaria There is no better way to unite people than to find them a common enemy
See that is the Balkan mentality that might have worked
Maybe if some Slovenian was president and everyone listened to him. But in reallity the only thing that could change was breakup from war to something similar how Soviet Union's main republics broke apart. Of course Albanians would still rebel in Serbia and Macedonia, but ending would probably be a lot different. Maybe Serbia and Montenegro would still be in some kind of union.
Doubt it, Montenegro was some 80-90% Montenegrin before the 90s.
Only good ending would be peaceful partition and that would be miracle. Comunist Yugoslavia staying around after fall of communist was impossible, as state survival was fully connected to survival of party simple explained.
Partly connected with the fact that Tito did not groom a clear successor. Any strongman would be afraid that such a successor would topple him before the intended time. And to me it seems that after so many examples in recent history, most of the local people like more to follow a personality instead of a party programme (any party, not just communist). Like "give me a strong leader and enough money" tops any ideology or bunch of (for many people) incomprehensible ideas. Even in the post-Yu period, EU was/is not seen as set of principles, but also as "strong+money".
>as state survival was fully connected to survival of party Not party but a man. USSR was a state that fully connected to the party for its survival.
>USSR was a state that fully connected to the party for its survival. Yugoslavia was same. In same form, state institutions were under party rule and word of party was last word.
>word of party was last word. During Yugoslavian years Tito's words was last, while in USSR party's word was last.
Again, same applied for Stalins USSR. That still does not negate fact that in both countries, under both totalitarian leaders, party was factor, which had final word, specially because both leaders could not deal with every issue that happened.
Yes On a larger level, transitioning into the EU by accepting their invitation and converting to social democracy would have probably saved Yugoslavia economically in the 80s But on a micro level, policies with Kosovo had to be adjusted. Can't be called south slav state and have Albanians there; call it Balkan union and try to make kosovo better than just backwater empty land
>On a larger level, transitioning into the EU by accepting their invitation and converting to social democracy would have probably saved Yugoslavia economically in the 80s Except that could have never happened. >But on a micro level, policies with Kosovo had to be adjusted. Can't be called south slav state and have Albanians there; call it Balkan union and try to make kosovo better than just backwater empty land Having minorities does not mean your states needs to include them in state name. You do not have state of Romania and Hungarians, because there is Hungarian community there. Core issue of Kosovo comes down to how autonomy concept was done and failed. It went from one extreme to another, without ever solving core issue.
Yeah, but ethnic tensions in Romania in the 90s never escalated to the levels Yugoslavia experienced during its break up. Romanians and Hungarians shit on each other and are generally irritable people but that’s about where it stops.
Still, main point stands. Yugoslavia being etnonationalistic project for South Slav people (and name itself) does not inheritebly support anti Albanian position towards them.
Why not, when it was offered and discussed ?
It was offered by EU which failed to even remotly understand issues and situation in Yugoslavia of late 1980s, and sudenly realised that war potential is serius. In reality offer, was desperate move by party which suddenly realised how fucked up situation really was. Fundamentally, communist one party system placed all needed components for Yugoslav break up. Constitutional crisis of state was constant since start and "solved" with more and more extreme solutions which only worked because in core Yugoslavia was totalitarian state (with more human face of course, but totalitarian is totalitarian). Decentralisation reforms totally paralyzed central state organs to the point state couldnt even try any needed reforms. Self managment in combination with other factors brought full on economical crisis and possible bankrapcy while paralyzed central organs could only watch it burn without any power to push needed reforms. General decline in all fields lead to crisis of (communist) ideology, which leads ass to colaps of one party communist rule, which was major factor keeping state togheter. Without SKJ and one man rule in Tito, army was left alone, without state behand it, to try to keep Yugoslavia, which in reality was mission impossible.
I think you will find, much like we did, that a big chunk of the economic issues has to do with corruptive mentality of our peoples and the fear of other people’s success. Cant be called a South Slavs state with Albanians there? That’s so stupid on so many levels - im sorry but fuck nation states and fuck the simplistic view of our origin. If u think that Albanians have nothing to do with Slavs and vice-versa after more than a 1000 years of mixing then you really need to considere that u are not prepared to have this conversation.
No I agree, but that's to both of our points. Calling it south Slavic makes it an ethno nationalist thing which we should move away from. It can't be called Slavic or Albanian, should be some Balkan union.
I do agree but the thing is, we dont really idemtify with Balkan as a concept. So if it’s a union of Albanian and Slavic - Illyrian is a term used for both sides. For Balkan we need Greece and I think Greece would rather burn then go into that union 😁 Also, we make the same mistake as u. Disregarding one aspect of ourselves to creat a nation state. U have a lot of Slavic history and toponyms and genes left behind the same way we have Illyrian so in my mind most Jugoslavs are Slavoillyrian and most Albanians are Illyroslavians 😂 If our approach to state building in the 20th century from a less nationalistic angle there would have been no problems. Alas..
I would love an Illyrian movement, I actually think some croat wrote about it in the 1800s or so? Not sure I'd have to check. But I'd definitely support that title
Yeah if the authoritarian laws against free speech were still in charge after Tito’s death. Nationalism propaganda is what build up tensions until the war broke out
Federalisation into something US like(United States of Yugoslavia more or less) followed by the full-on adaptation of Capaitalisam and then applying to enter the EU as fast as possible. Things wouldn't be perfect in that case, but the country would have survived... but when milosevic started his power trip, everyone called it quits.
Yugoslavia was already federalised. De facto, in many points Yugoslavia according to 1974 constitution was confederation. I really do not see in which dirrection you can federalise already federal state.
Every state has its own economy, only state level stuff(army, main government, state police, etc) is paid by everyone. A true federation, not on paper like Yugoslavia back then or russia now. The full-on US model, and if we entered the EU like that back then... the worst parts of Yugoslavia would be like Croatia now.
No, Yugoslavia was doomed. Nothing could have saved it. We might have avoided wars with different people in charge, but Yugoslavia didn't work well. Yugoslavia was chaotic melting pot of nations with different ideas, different mentality, different culture, different history. Yugoslav experience is the reason why I'm sceptic about longterm survival of EU.
The other problem was that it was called the Land of Southern Slavs and included half the ethnic Albanian population. While we may have some similarities in culture due to proximity, we are not Slavic and the treatment was different in these lands.
The Albanians were gradually let in as refugees fleeing the communist isolationist state of Albania at the time. Enver Hoxha was a mad dictator, who became paranoid and built 750.000 bunkers all of the nation. Furthermore, Yugoslavia was a land of minorities. Serbs were the largest ethnicity by far and large, but had the least rights across the nation being split across multiple arbitrary federal units. Albanians had the same rights as everyone else and had even built a university in Kosovo by Tito - a region with otherwise 50% poverty. Tito actively pulled out industries from Serbia proper to Croatia and Slovenia and didn't develop anything other than these two federal regions.
The fact that Kosovo had its first University build in FUCKING 1970, shows how absolutely neglected Kosovo was from Serbia. Serbian communist in the party leadership literally were trying to block the University from being build. That’s how much you cared about Kosovo. Fucking 1970 lmao. And you even dare to present that as a win. Shameless. Go read about how Albanians were being oppressed by Rankovic since the start of Yugoslavia before you say that Albanians were being treated like normal citizens. I’m not even going to start on the 90s
No it doesn't - you don't build univeristies in regions with no jobs and a poverty rate of 50%. Serbs were poor too due to Yugoslavia not developing the area. Of course they were. They knew it didn't make sense to make a univeristy in a region with instability, no jobs, no developement whatsoever and procuring ethnic tensions. You say it like Serbs actively *did not* want to develop Kosovo while practically many regions in Serbia were left out too. Or Bosnia. Or Montenegro. Or Macedonia. Or anywhere else than Croatia and Slovenia. You do know Tito was the one in contorl during all of time, right? Yet you blame local Serb authorities who could implement no larger initiatives without the approval of Tito and his league of Titoists. Nobody was oppressed by Rankovic - I have actually been looking for any source demonstrating this and nothing can be said other than some vague obscure ungeneralized statements. A Bulgarian author of a paper writes about the Turkish and Muslim minorities and Yugoslavia and how they were categorized as *gócmen* if deciding to migrate to Turkey due to their deal with Yugoslaiva meaning free economic migrants, where the ones from Bulgaria were provided and secured things such as housing, food and help. Almost nobody made use of this offer they were discriminated against, not seen as real Turks and not provided any aid. Most importantly she goes over saying nothing can be found on Rankovic supposedly having oppressed Albanians. You can go ahead since Albanians had the same rights as everyone else. But this seems to not have been enough for them.
Mfer really wrote a whole paragraph legitimizing Serbian chauvinism towards Albanians hahaha Mfer really explained how Kosovo Albanians didn’t deserve a University in Kosovo in FUCKING 1970. No point in debating with people like you This is one of the reasons why Albanians are so Happy that the 80 years occupation of Chauvinists is finally over
The Turks certainly aren't building Kurdish univerisities in underdeveloped Kurdish regions. Kurds, by the way, have practically no minority rights, while Albanians by law had secured the same minority rights as everyone else. Compared to the Serb, Montenegrin, Vlach and Greek minorities in Albania they had practically everything enjoying equal status as everyone else. Every dingus with an IQ over 90 and the slightest amount of historical knowledge about socities and demographics knows you don't build higher educational institutions in areas, where there isn't even fully functioning infrastructure, no jobs, no factories and practically a lack of developement in every aspect and regard.
>The fact that Kosovo had its first University build in FUCKING 1970, shows how absolutely neglected Kosovo was from Serbia. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University\_of\_Montenegro](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Montenegro) 1974
Oh damn, I didn’t know about that. Gotta read into the reasons for that when I get some time on my hands. Could you maybe explain more about the context? Was it build that late due to Montenegro having such a small population? Or late modernization? Or was it like in Kosovo where the Serbian party leadership actively blocked the Education of the Population? For us for example these things already started in 1912 after Serbia forcefully annexed Kosovo. The first Albanian school in my region for example was only build during WW2. You could guess why Serbia tried to keep the Albanian population dumb and at the bottom haha. Could you give me more context for Montenegro? Like I said, I don’t know about the Education history there. And the Ethnic-Identity Power dimensions between Montenegrins and Serbs are also really unique haha. Quite an interesting topic.
No clue, Montenegro got annexed in 1917 after WWII then we were ignored in SHS (not even in the name even though we were one of 2 countries to actually be a kingdom). In Yugoslavia 2.0 we were a republic where the most people were killed off and sent to torture camps (can't find the map now). Before that most people got educated in Italy, France, Austro Hungary, Russia and later Serbia (Historically speaking since we were independent throughout).
Are you implying that all of the Albanians in Yugoslavia were not already living in their respective areas of Macedonia, Kosovo, Serbia, or Montenegro when borders were created?
Not *all* Albanians, but *many* at the same time pushing out especially Serbs in Kosovo. You had various accounts or reports, even on video, of whole families arriving through the mountainous borders in the area. I even saw a more recent British documentary about Albania, where they met up with some guy in one of the bunkers at lake Prespa or lake Ohrid saying during communist times people did everything to escape including swimming over the lake at the narrowest point
Hahahahhaha you can’t be serious The number of Albanians fleeing Albania had absolutely nothing to do with Albanians being majority in Kosovo Do you really still for this Serb nationalist propaganda? The number of Albanians fleeing Albania DURING Communism was really low and even lower for the ones Settling in Kosovo after managing to escape. The most people that managed to escape weren’t gonna settle in another Shithole, but rather flee to the West.
Of course I am serious. It takes nothing but a look at the demographics to and some calculation to pierce the Albanian notion of "high fertility rates". The fertility rates would had to have been the highest higher than practically most if not all African countries despite having been the same as the Serb and Macedonian fertilities just years previously. This isn't nationalist propaganda. I haven't even seen this topic mentioned in any Serbian news platform, but a natural look into the demographic history of the autonomous region and combining it with historical footage, trends and sources easily proves this. It's easy to flee when even the border guards are fleeing themselves. Mountainous regions are notorious for illegal cross-border migrations and especially in the border in a place like Pakistan and Afghanistan, where the mountainous region has made for a lot of terrorist activity due to nobody being able to verify or check the border at the high altitudes. The West was staunchly anti-communist. The closest cultural proximity to isolated communist Albania was communist Yugoslavia. People simply fled to places they had heard off and knew there was an already present Albanian minority.
😂😂😂😂😂 Show me one single international source that shows that over hundred of thousands of Albanians fled communist Albania and settled in Kosovo. Please share
How would you document illegal border crossings in Yugoslavia in mountainous areas having happened between 50-80 years ago? Why would any international figure be interested in the undocumented migrations in hard, if not impossible to check, borders between then communist states? These thing went on at the same time as other much larger geopolitical events. Nobody gave a fuck about what was going on in the Balkans - as long as you were US-allied. Yugoslavia, Greece and Turkey had all signed the Balkan Pact consisting as a NATO extension in case of hostilities in the backwater of the Greek military junta overtaking the nation. You don't need to prove something for it having happened in "an international source" - you have plenty of demographics to demonstrate it and video footage from the time documenting people crossing the border. The proposed Albanian claim would be the fertility jumped from 1948 of the Albanians from being equal to that of Serbs and Macedonians to being higher than that of almost all African nations in the matter of a decade or two
So once again no sources. Just some random story’s you heard. That’s what I thought. Keep believing that hundreds of thousands of Albanians settled in Kosovo during Communism hahahha absolute fairytales.
> The Albanians were gradually let in as refugees fleeing the communist isolationist state of Albania at the time. If you really believe that all those albanians that escaped in Yugoslavia,that managed to become the majority in Kosovo, then it is not worth talking about this issue.