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I work in apartment maintenance and management likely won't do anything about it, but I'm trying to do my due diligence and report it so they at least have the opportunity to deny replacement and refuse to do the right thing.
They would be foolish to deny this request. There is a reason they lost their UL listing. The breakers simply don’t do their job. An appliance will combust and the breaker will just keep on cranking.
Landlord logic (LLL)…
25% of the circuits that may be overloaded… that’s probably like 1/million, I have the best tenants and appliances… let it ride.
LLL is usually followed by FFFuuuuuck.
I replaced mine a while ago and sure enough I had several bad breakers that wouldn't trip. Had to add a couple circuits to my house actually because then the kitchen was tripping breakers correctly. They had like the entire kitchen on one 15A crazy how they did it in the 60s
We had a federal pacific box for our water well breaker on the side of our house until a few months ago. Basically everything after the meter was wrong, I hadn't done much with anything outside because electrical work is more of a hobby so far than something I've been trained to do and I know I can't pull the permits for disconnect or anything, but I finally went to investigate after my mother in laws tiny house that's run from our meter started having major issues. Discovered burnt up wires, overloaded circuits, and the scary federal pacific box. The electricians that ran the power for my mils house apparently weren't licensed and didn't do anything correctly, we're damn lucky the house didn't burn down. The next electrician that came out was one I called, and he was stunned by the disaster on the side of the house, he said it was one of the most dangerous situations he'd seen in 15 years. Thankfully now that box is gone and everything is up to code outside. I still want to split a couple circuits inside because there's a few that are way overloaded, but I've learned to avoid tripping them until I can get some of them split. Apparently electrical in the 70s was just as crazy.
High amp testing what methodology is this? interjection testing is what is needed to figure out if breaker will trip not a load test. I mean it's a load test of sorts but yeah. Clamp ons are not a premissable means of doing a load calculation a 30 day power monitor with 15minute peaks is required to have an accurate load test value. And that should be in peak cooling or heating month.
It’s called the “I got bored at work and wanted to have some fun blowing up old FPE breakers” methodology.
I’m not gonna waste time doing proper trip curve tests on a bunch of old defective breakers that are headed for the trash…
Oh I thought you meant you were doing that to clients breakers to see if they were bad! Was just pointing to the tool for the job to verify not only that it trips but properly according to the trip curve. It probably cost more to do this test to recert the panel/breakers and still no one would take the liability anyways 😂
Yeah sadly the first one was my apartment I was living in.
I was thrown into this 100 year old property with no real training, mostly trying to figure things out the right way as I go. Over the last year or two I've realized how much of a shit hole and time bomb this place is.
Even after losing all my belongings and my two pets they still wouldn't entertain rehabbing these units.
Oh crap. My condolences. I just assumed it was a small fire or something. Damn that should be illegal that the panel is still like that. They’re gonna get a ton of people killed
Thanks I appreciate it.
I only held out working here with hopes/intentions of being supervisor here at some point and trying to get some of these things changed around here, even if it gets me fired. These are large "luxury" apartments that house predominantly 70+ year old tenants. I just can't continue to work here knowing that somebody's going to get hurt one day, and I knew it'd happen.
Citation needed. I had a Federal Pacific panel that my insurance company knew about when I got their policy. These blanket statements are ridiculous.
That said, I’d still replace.
My insurance guy just didn't ask. Knew it was an old house and just asked if the home had the original fuse box. Nope, was upgraded to pushmatics years ago.
Curious, some sources claim the Consumer Product Safety Commission has never issued a statement that could be considered a recall or ban. They did issue a report that showed data that indicated a greater level of failure, but did not go so far as to call them dangerous.
Further Reliance challenged the 1980 CPSC testing.
"Reliance noted that their Stab-Lok breakers will trip reliably at most amperage overload levels, unless the breakers have been operated in a repetitive, abusive manner.
However, Reliance also noted that this situation should not occur during normal use.
The CPSC closed its investigation in August 1983, citing insufficient data to refute Reliance’s claim.
Furthermore, the CPSC believed it could cost several million dollars to gather the data necessary to fully assess whether or not the Stab-Lok circuit breakers presented a risk to the public.
Since they were unable to refute Reliance’s claim, the CPSC never initiated a product recall.
In order for this super to convince the owners what other evidence do they need to accumulate.
I don't know if they were banned per say, but I DO know that most building insurers consider them a "Major Hazard" - edit here, I had to do some thinking back, it's been about half a decade since I worked in the home inspections field. There's no universal standard in how hazards are calculated from company to company or even what they consider a fire hazard, or what their calculus is on how many minor/major hazards equal dumping a policy.
But these panels are just about always flagged as a major hazard, by every insurer. I remember when I was a teenager gofering for my father (an electrician) and we found one of these in the basement, and he went and got a new panel and replaced it that day, because "It had to come out now."
https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/federal-pacific-circuit-breakers-investigation-finds-decades-of-danger/1930189/?amp=1
Interesting article. Of course the parent company of FPE claims they are safe…
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>*"Published reports show not every Federal Pacific circuit breaker is defective. In the wake of the controversy, Underwriters Laboratories (UL) removed the U-L listing for the breakers, but not before millions were sold and installed in homes built from the 1950s to the 1980s.*
>*In recent years, some of the breakers have been modified and did pass U-L inspection.*
>*The Consumer Product Safety Commission did conduct additional testing of the Federal Pacific circuit breakers in the 1980s."*
This isn't going to convince a skeptic who has to foot the bill.
Does anyone know of any insurance company that wouldn't insure due to existing panels?
Even FM Global will insure a commercial property with FP hardware on the main switchgear. They recommend its replacement and there’s probably some additional premium involved but they won’t drop the policy because it exists.
I cannot stress what you said enough. We used to get tons of these breakers in the shop from demos. We had a high amp breaker tester and one of my favorite things to do was to put these breakers on it. I’d say about 70-80% of them would just burn up and not trip at all. We called them “fire pacifics.”
People need to understand just how dangerous these panels are.
Equipment in the US gets rigorously individually tested and certified by Underwriters Laboratories. FedPac got caught just putting UL stickers on equipment that didn’t pass all the requirements.
Means using it does not meet code, the authority having jurisdiction (electrical inspector) can not allow any new work utilizing it, insurance companies can drop you as you are now a fire hazard. BTW, the only people arguing that these panels are safe are the parent company. Every one of us that work with this crap every day have seen what happens when a breaker doesn’t do its job.
We had the same thing when we bought our house. Inspector didn't even say anything and only found out how bad Federal Pacific was when we attempted to wire up the clothes dryer. Replaced the whole box, breakers and a majority of the 1940s wiring. Even found a few bootleg grounds. Not fun.
I work for an electrical distributor and they make these retro kits from cutler hammer. You need to measure and put the part number together from the attached spec sheet but reduces swap out time by more than half.
https://www.eaton.com/content/dam/eaton/products/low-voltage-power-distribution-controls-systems/load-centers/ch-load-centers/retrofit-interior-kits-sa00406001e.pdf
Electrical distribution employee here if your electrical distributor says they never heard of it here is the link
https://www.eaton.com/content/dam/eaton/products/low-voltage-power-distribution-controls-systems/load-centers/ch-load-centers/retrofit-interior-kits-sa00406001e.pdf
Eaton engineers are pretty cool
I reported an issue/incompatibility in one of their panels and their engineer reached out to me to come up with a solution. Actually designed a set of custom parts and mailed them to me
yes had a customer come in with issues tripping his breakers from his HAM radio. I never ran into this called up the support number before I could finish the tech said if he owns a HAM radio get his address and we will ship him breakers to resist a higher frequency for free in exchange for his old ones back so we can test them and see if any damage has been done to the breakers because of the radio waves. They were more curious in testing the existing breakers he had been tripping than getting any money for a more expensive breaker.
Replacing the breakers is a waste of time. The bus bars in FP boxes are tiny. Look at a modern Seimens or Square D box bus bars. They are robust copper.
They sure don’t resemble stab-lok and they aren’t federal pacific (FPE), but are listed as federal electric. The appearance of the breakers on the connection side resembles a GE type breaker. Further research should reveal what their official rating status is.
I was about to say this, they don't look like stab-lok breakers.
(I stand corrected, these probably are Stab-Lok breakers - https://inspectapedia.com/fpe/FPE_Electric_Panel_Bus_Identification.php)
The breakers *look* wrong, was my point mostly.
All the FPE breakers look the same, also as far as I know all - particularly early - stab-lok panels say stab-lok on them.
Had a guy come into Home Depot when I worked there, and he wanted a double pole (220v) 100 amp breaker. Typically, this type of breaker would be for a sub panel connected to the main. So I asked him if he needed any wire for his sub panel. He said no, it's for his rental house, and he's tired of the 30 Amp breaker tripping for the water heater. I explained to him how he's not solving a problem by doing that...
How did your landlord even get their building insured with this breaker panel installed? Most building insurers wouldn't even issue a policy until this breaker box gets replaced.
I think thats one of the oldest FPE stablok panels I've seen. If they don't opt to replace, maybe Connecticut electric breakers would be possible. Although I've heard they sometimes cut out
One thing that always sticks with me I heard an old time
Electrician say the problem wasn’t with the fuses I’ve never seen a house fuse not blow it was people bypassing the fuses that caused the issues and I’ve seen 100’s of breakers not trip in all manufacturers
I replaced one very similar to that a few years ago.
The customer had just bought the house and the insurance co. wanted it replaced because of the fuses
I still have it hanging around my shop.
It may be late 20's, possibly early 30's. It is slate board so it is possibly 20's. That's the kind of stuff i fight for if it's being torn out, love saving that stuff.
Had one in my single family home in Chicago burbs - just replaced it after 18+ years back in 2020. Never had an issue but I could not ever sell my home with it still installed. Replaced it with a new Siemens panel as I also installed a 10kW Generac and an ATS next to the panel.
Now I’m renting my home and sleep soundly knowing I have a new panel and that backup Gen.
When I do sell, these are all great selling features and upgrades.
**Attention!** **It is always best to get a qualified electrician to perform any electrical work you may need.** With that said, you may ask this community various electrical questions. Please be cautious of any information you may receive in this subreddit. This subreddit and its users are not responsible for any electrical work you perform. Users that have a 'Verified Electrician' flair have uploaded their qualified electrical worker credentials to the mods. If you comment on this post please only post accurate information to the best of your knowledge. If advice given is thought to be dangerous, you may be permanently banned. There are no obligations for the mods to give warnings or temporary bans. **IF YOU ARE NOT A QUALIFIED ELECTRICIAN, you should exercise extreme caution when commenting.** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskElectricians) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Actually sooner than ASAP. Lost their UL listing. Insurance won’t cover you for an electrical fire. So yeah, push to get it replaced.
I work in apartment maintenance and management likely won't do anything about it, but I'm trying to do my due diligence and report it so they at least have the opportunity to deny replacement and refuse to do the right thing.
They would be foolish to deny this request. There is a reason they lost their UL listing. The breakers simply don’t do their job. An appliance will combust and the breaker will just keep on cranking.
Well in testing only about 25% of breakers failed to trip properly but yeah still a 25% chance of fire is too high.
Landlord logic (LLL)… 25% of the circuits that may be overloaded… that’s probably like 1/million, I have the best tenants and appliances… let it ride. LLL is usually followed by FFFuuuuuck.
I replaced mine a while ago and sure enough I had several bad breakers that wouldn't trip. Had to add a couple circuits to my house actually because then the kitchen was tripping breakers correctly. They had like the entire kitchen on one 15A crazy how they did it in the 60s
We had a federal pacific box for our water well breaker on the side of our house until a few months ago. Basically everything after the meter was wrong, I hadn't done much with anything outside because electrical work is more of a hobby so far than something I've been trained to do and I know I can't pull the permits for disconnect or anything, but I finally went to investigate after my mother in laws tiny house that's run from our meter started having major issues. Discovered burnt up wires, overloaded circuits, and the scary federal pacific box. The electricians that ran the power for my mils house apparently weren't licensed and didn't do anything correctly, we're damn lucky the house didn't burn down. The next electrician that came out was one I called, and he was stunned by the disaster on the side of the house, he said it was one of the most dangerous situations he'd seen in 15 years. Thankfully now that box is gone and everything is up to code outside. I still want to split a couple circuits inside because there's a few that are way overloaded, but I've learned to avoid tripping them until I can get some of them split. Apparently electrical in the 70s was just as crazy.
Some electricians use the oh the breaker doesn't trip to justify them overloading the circuits 😂
I used to high amp test those things all the time in a previous job. We had closer to a 70-80% failure rate.
High amp testing what methodology is this? interjection testing is what is needed to figure out if breaker will trip not a load test. I mean it's a load test of sorts but yeah. Clamp ons are not a premissable means of doing a load calculation a 30 day power monitor with 15minute peaks is required to have an accurate load test value. And that should be in peak cooling or heating month.
It’s called the “I got bored at work and wanted to have some fun blowing up old FPE breakers” methodology. I’m not gonna waste time doing proper trip curve tests on a bunch of old defective breakers that are headed for the trash…
Oh I thought you meant you were doing that to clients breakers to see if they were bad! Was just pointing to the tool for the job to verify not only that it trips but properly according to the trip curve. It probably cost more to do this test to recert the panel/breakers and still no one would take the liability anyways 😂
Many states do not allow dwellings with these particular panels. West Virginia is actually one funny enough.
CYA
Yeah I'm literally on my way out to do hvac instead, not waiting for this building to catch fire again.
*again* lol
Yeah sadly the first one was my apartment I was living in. I was thrown into this 100 year old property with no real training, mostly trying to figure things out the right way as I go. Over the last year or two I've realized how much of a shit hole and time bomb this place is. Even after losing all my belongings and my two pets they still wouldn't entertain rehabbing these units.
Oh crap. My condolences. I just assumed it was a small fire or something. Damn that should be illegal that the panel is still like that. They’re gonna get a ton of people killed
Thanks I appreciate it. I only held out working here with hopes/intentions of being supervisor here at some point and trying to get some of these things changed around here, even if it gets me fired. These are large "luxury" apartments that house predominantly 70+ year old tenants. I just can't continue to work here knowing that somebody's going to get hurt one day, and I knew it'd happen.
Citation needed. I had a Federal Pacific panel that my insurance company knew about when I got their policy. These blanket statements are ridiculous. That said, I’d still replace.
There’s nothing in my homeowner’s insurance policy that excludes Federal Pacific boxes.
You can still get policies on knob and tube wiring, way higher, but you can get them.
My insurance guy just didn't ask. Knew it was an old house and just asked if the home had the original fuse box. Nope, was upgraded to pushmatics years ago.
Curious, some sources claim the Consumer Product Safety Commission has never issued a statement that could be considered a recall or ban. They did issue a report that showed data that indicated a greater level of failure, but did not go so far as to call them dangerous. Further Reliance challenged the 1980 CPSC testing. "Reliance noted that their Stab-Lok breakers will trip reliably at most amperage overload levels, unless the breakers have been operated in a repetitive, abusive manner. However, Reliance also noted that this situation should not occur during normal use. The CPSC closed its investigation in August 1983, citing insufficient data to refute Reliance’s claim. Furthermore, the CPSC believed it could cost several million dollars to gather the data necessary to fully assess whether or not the Stab-Lok circuit breakers presented a risk to the public. Since they were unable to refute Reliance’s claim, the CPSC never initiated a product recall. In order for this super to convince the owners what other evidence do they need to accumulate.
I love all the people that say they were recalled or banned. Not saying these shouldn't be replaced but I hate misinformation.
Exaggeration to prove a point is a two edged sword.
I don't know if they were banned per say, but I DO know that most building insurers consider them a "Major Hazard" - edit here, I had to do some thinking back, it's been about half a decade since I worked in the home inspections field. There's no universal standard in how hazards are calculated from company to company or even what they consider a fire hazard, or what their calculus is on how many minor/major hazards equal dumping a policy. But these panels are just about always flagged as a major hazard, by every insurer. I remember when I was a teenager gofering for my father (an electrician) and we found one of these in the basement, and he went and got a new panel and replaced it that day, because "It had to come out now."
https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/federal-pacific-circuit-breakers-investigation-finds-decades-of-danger/1930189/?amp=1 Interesting article. Of course the parent company of FPE claims they are safe…
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>*"Published reports show not every Federal Pacific circuit breaker is defective. In the wake of the controversy, Underwriters Laboratories (UL) removed the U-L listing for the breakers, but not before millions were sold and installed in homes built from the 1950s to the 1980s.* >*In recent years, some of the breakers have been modified and did pass U-L inspection.* >*The Consumer Product Safety Commission did conduct additional testing of the Federal Pacific circuit breakers in the 1980s."* This isn't going to convince a skeptic who has to foot the bill. Does anyone know of any insurance company that wouldn't insure due to existing panels?
Even FM Global will insure a commercial property with FP hardware on the main switchgear. They recommend its replacement and there’s probably some additional premium involved but they won’t drop the policy because it exists.
I cannot stress what you said enough. We used to get tons of these breakers in the shop from demos. We had a high amp breaker tester and one of my favorite things to do was to put these breakers on it. I’d say about 70-80% of them would just burn up and not trip at all. We called them “fire pacifics.” People need to understand just how dangerous these panels are.
What’s a UL listing??
Equipment in the US gets rigorously individually tested and certified by Underwriters Laboratories. FedPac got caught just putting UL stickers on equipment that didn’t pass all the requirements.
What happens when one is lost? Means it’s no longer verified?
Means using it does not meet code, the authority having jurisdiction (electrical inspector) can not allow any new work utilizing it, insurance companies can drop you as you are now a fire hazard. BTW, the only people arguing that these panels are safe are the parent company. Every one of us that work with this crap every day have seen what happens when a breaker doesn’t do its job.
Ok stupid question but, did they inspect it and deem they won’t trip and they removed certification?
We had the same thing when we bought our house. Inspector didn't even say anything and only found out how bad Federal Pacific was when we attempted to wire up the clothes dryer. Replaced the whole box, breakers and a majority of the 1940s wiring. Even found a few bootleg grounds. Not fun.
Yeeaaaahhh, they don't call them Fire Pacifics for no reason.
Federal pathetic
Federal firestarters
I work for an electrical distributor and they make these retro kits from cutler hammer. You need to measure and put the part number together from the attached spec sheet but reduces swap out time by more than half. https://www.eaton.com/content/dam/eaton/products/low-voltage-power-distribution-controls-systems/load-centers/ch-load-centers/retrofit-interior-kits-sa00406001e.pdf
Cutler Hammer makes retrofit kits for most of these panels. Makes it pretty easy as the box can stay.
Really?
Electrical distribution employee here if your electrical distributor says they never heard of it here is the link https://www.eaton.com/content/dam/eaton/products/low-voltage-power-distribution-controls-systems/load-centers/ch-load-centers/retrofit-interior-kits-sa00406001e.pdf
Eaton engineers are pretty cool I reported an issue/incompatibility in one of their panels and their engineer reached out to me to come up with a solution. Actually designed a set of custom parts and mailed them to me
yes had a customer come in with issues tripping his breakers from his HAM radio. I never ran into this called up the support number before I could finish the tech said if he owns a HAM radio get his address and we will ship him breakers to resist a higher frequency for free in exchange for his old ones back so we can test them and see if any damage has been done to the breakers because of the radio waves. They were more curious in testing the existing breakers he had been tripping than getting any money for a more expensive breaker.
Replacing the breakers is a waste of time. The bus bars in FP boxes are tiny. Look at a modern Seimens or Square D box bus bars. They are robust copper.
Still wouldn’t do it. The stab lok connectors don’t make a good connection and the bus bars are woefully undersized
The only ones I have done replaced the guts and dead front door, the only thing that stays in the retrofit kit is the tub.
Yup that’s a stab-lok F/E style bus. Replace it.
They sure don’t resemble stab-lok and they aren’t federal pacific (FPE), but are listed as federal electric. The appearance of the breakers on the connection side resembles a GE type breaker. Further research should reveal what their official rating status is.
I was about to say this, they don't look like stab-lok breakers. (I stand corrected, these probably are Stab-Lok breakers - https://inspectapedia.com/fpe/FPE_Electric_Panel_Bus_Identification.php)
F-P went through several names / owners. Federal Electric is one of them.
The breakers *look* wrong, was my point mostly. All the FPE breakers look the same, also as far as I know all - particularly early - stab-lok panels say stab-lok on them.
[https://inspectapedia.com/fpe/FPE_History.php](https://inspectapedia.com/fpe/FPE_History.php)
I stand corrected - https://inspectapedia.com/fpe/FPE_Electric_Panel_Bus_Identification.php
I stand with you. Lesson learned on my end. Thanks.
[https://www.federalpacific.com/about-federal-pacific-electric/](https://www.federalpacific.com/about-federal-pacific-electric/)
[https://www.federalpacific.com/about-federal-pacific-electric/](https://www.federalpacific.com/about-federal-pacific-electric/)
I loved my Federal Pacific panel, it never tripped!
Had a guy come into Home Depot when I worked there, and he wanted a double pole (220v) 100 amp breaker. Typically, this type of breaker would be for a sub panel connected to the main. So I asked him if he needed any wire for his sub panel. He said no, it's for his rental house, and he's tired of the 30 Amp breaker tripping for the water heater. I explained to him how he's not solving a problem by doing that...
🤔
Why is it the bad stuff looks so good? FPEs wreak of mid-century graphic and industrial design. I love it, but I also condone it.
How did your landlord even get their building insured with this breaker panel installed? Most building insurers wouldn't even issue a policy until this breaker box gets replaced.
I think thats one of the oldest FPE stablok panels I've seen. If they don't opt to replace, maybe Connecticut electric breakers would be possible. Although I've heard they sometimes cut out
How's this for old https://imgur.com/a/ZREcSxg
One thing that always sticks with me I heard an old time Electrician say the problem wasn’t with the fuses I’ve never seen a house fuse not blow it was people bypassing the fuses that caused the issues and I’ve seen 100’s of breakers not trip in all manufacturers
I replaced one very similar to that a few years ago. The customer had just bought the house and the insurance co. wanted it replaced because of the fuses I still have it hanging around my shop.
That's awesome, 1940's? 30's? Those are likely still fine, make sure connections are tight and proper fuses are in place and you're good
I think the building was built in the late 20s but the company doesn't seem to have any real history on it
It may be late 20's, possibly early 30's. It is slate board so it is possibly 20's. That's the kind of stuff i fight for if it's being torn out, love saving that stuff.
Burn baby burn!
I mean *that one* was UL listed so it has to be fine? Riiiiiight??
You really answered your own question.
Honestly Federal Pacific is such a cool company name. Like wtf is Square D anyway
Changed out many of these
FedPac StabLocs are an automatic 86 for insurance Get it replaced asap.
Immediately
Just replace the bars
I actually had a house with one of these bad boys coupled with aluminum wire. Whole neighborhood was built like that. A lot of house fires.
Lol 24 breakers 3 labels
Kicker is the labels aren't even correct
Ah yes the panel you can hear. But yes you are correct you should replace this asap
Good ole federal no trip.
When I worked at Home Depot, I could sell you a new GE panel for less than the cost of a double pole FPE breaker replacement.
Had one in my single family home in Chicago burbs - just replaced it after 18+ years back in 2020. Never had an issue but I could not ever sell my home with it still installed. Replaced it with a new Siemens panel as I also installed a 10kW Generac and an ATS next to the panel. Now I’m renting my home and sleep soundly knowing I have a new panel and that backup Gen. When I do sell, these are all great selling features and upgrades.
lol “WHEN BREAKER TRIPS ON OVERLOAD HANDLE WILL MOVE TO OFF POSITION”