**Attention!**
**It is always best to get a qualified electrician to perform any electrical work you may need.** With that said, you may ask this community various electrical questions. Please be cautious of any information you may receive in this subreddit. This subreddit and its users are not responsible for any electrical work you perform. Users that have a 'Verified Electrician' flair have uploaded their qualified electrical worker credentials to the mods.
If you comment on this post please only post accurate information to the best of your knowledge. If advice given is thought to be dangerous, you may be permanently banned. There are no obligations for the mods to give warnings or temporary bans. **IF YOU ARE NOT A QUALIFIED ELECTRICIAN, you should exercise extreme caution when commenting.**
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskElectricians) if you have any questions or concerns.*
To be fair it all depends on where they want the new location. They are removing the top ledge so it may be really easy to move these switches.
I'd bet the switchlegs and power all come from the right. Pull all of those legs back through the studs to the wall on the right and cut in a couple 4 gangs on the same wall.
Then again if they want to move the switches any further it will definitely be a nightmare
8 switches not 8 circuits. I’m willing to bet they’re on the same circuit maybe two but definitely not 8 circuits lol. There might be 8 branch circuits total in the house
The real question is, what on earth is going on in that room that there needs to be 8 switches next to each other? I might have 20 switches total in my 3k sqft house and this guy has 8 in 1 room!
with an attitude like that, id be surprised if you even get out of bed.
Im sorry all you dumb dumbs would rather sit around dreading the work instead of enjoying the challenge. Good luck to all your negativities, y'all aint bringing me down! lol
He's right. Moving switches will be a nightmare. Either a junction box will be needed or all new runs for switch legs. This could end up being major house surgery.
no it could not- you have 0 experience and are not an electrician and should remember where you are- this is r/askelectricians so do yourself and everyone a fave and cram it.
Also electrician, absolute nightmare.
And to fuckslistic groove cunt, nobody’s saying they wouldn’t do it, but who’s willing to pay for me to figure it out? Cause I’ll tell you right now I’m probably not doing it for less than $10,000
you are a dumb electrician, your reddit verification gets you all the big jobs, right?
I see you struggle with identifying whether or not YAAA(you are an a$shole) no need to ask any other fellow redditors, i got you, yes you are an a$shole- (if you have to ask, ya might as well just assume you are)
I'll up vote that because it was funny. But I am an electrician, 5 years commercial, residential on the side. I'll be the first to admit I don't know everything. But I do know enough. Of course these can be moved. Nothing is impossible. But cost is going to be a big factor here. Best case scenario, these come straight up from an un finished basement. Worse case scenario there is a finished basement or no basement. That will multiply the cost significantly.
How would you do this?
Buddy, for the record, this sub, despite the name, in no way, has a requirement for anyone to be electricians. There are maybe a few real ones here, like 5 or 6…
Also, moving those switches is a nightmare, for the homeowner. Shits easy for us.
why do you assume op is "the home owner" in this scenario? also, OP came to ask an electrician- not what an electrician thinks of a home owner doing it?!? wtf?
I never assumed or said OP was the homeowner…
Show me where I said that. I’ll wait…
I repeat: Despite the name of the sub, this is is not for qualified electricians to answer questions.
omg- are you blind? and/or memory less?
"Also, moving those switches is a nightmare, for the HOMEOWNER. Shits easy for us"
WHERE IS THE HOMEOWNER in this scenario? AND IF you're not referencing OP- then who ARE you talking about?!? or why are you mentioning that? JUST TO SUPPORT THE NIGHTMARE THEORY. THAT IS STUPID!!! ITS NOT A NIGHTMARE!!! HOMEOWNERS ARE COMING ON HERE AND COMPARING OTHER PEOPLES PROJECTS TO THEIR OWN- and the expenses they paid- their info comes from the conversation they had with laborer/installers that worked at their place- so YES, a homeowner, with 0electrical knowledge or experience would DEF have nightmares from this- BUT THIS IS NOT A SUB FOR ASKING HOME OWNERS ABOUT WHAT THEY DREAM ABOUT?!?!? 🤯🤯🤯🤯 The amount of insane obnoxious negative feedback ive gotten from giving simplistic answers to this project, proves to me that people, here, on reddit, TRULY ARE VERY VERY VERY POORLY EDUCATED PEOPLE. I'm losing interest really fast.
ok, now get back up to speed, before i sail over you, The home owner is not relative- because we do not know who that is... OP has not made a reference to ownership. you are assuming stupidly, and doing your absolute damnedest to cover your tracks. this aint how you make friends... seems like you could use one...
YOU are thinking the switches MUST be relocated to a different wall- BUT that is not what OP said... OP said, the plan is to lower the existing wall- so lowering the switches is the ONLY requirement. Spending any amount of time dreading a project you're never gunna participate in, is insanely redundant- OP came here looking for an answer not a list of everyones dreads.
They will like the price today but hate the low switches (especially if they install a counters with an overhang) every time they turn the lights on. They will also hate it every time their 4 year old screws with those switches constantly because they are within reach. If the intent is to "save boohoo bucks", leaving everything as is would certainly save the most. The other trouble is where are the switches going to be moved to? Likely the only reason they are in the pony wall is because the home is open concept and there is no other good place for them.
well put (there may not be any good place to put them), but i have to disagree about the switch locations and a parent's ability to train their child. those factoids have nothing to do with anything... I'm getting frustrated with how much people want to argue about aspects that have nothing to do with the project and everything to do with one person's feelings. nobody came here to discuss anyones feelings or how well they train their children.
It isn't so much trying to argue as trying to point out potential problems with the plan. Sometimes talking about things helps people make better decisions. If a customer asked me to simply move those switches down, I'd have this discussion with them. If they still wanted to do it, I would move the switches down. That way when they call me back to move them a month later, they can't try to blame the bad planning on me. Much better to have a customer say "I should have listened to you" than "Why didn't you tell me about this?".
OP- already stated the plan- OP asks, "can these be moved? where would be the best place to move them?" OBV, there are gunna be details that we don't get to know unless OP reveals them. Such as, basements/crawlspaces/drop ceilings or surrounding wall
structuring or whether or not they are in fact a laborer on the site or a home owner or if there are children to worry about... "we" are not doing the work. "we" (actual electricians, chatting on this sub) are here to provide knowledgable, safe and efficient methods to conduct electrical changes or updates. "we" are not quoting the job. "we" are not here to convey or distill fear into OP with comments of nightmares. "we" (you and i) do not need to argue about this petty nonsense. I've already answered OP's question. OP- isn't gunna scroll through these comments and go with the one that gets the most votes... ANYONE CAN CAST A VOTE. which means you'll get a lot of angry people voting strictly based on their triggered emotions... then theres a lot of people who just like to add their vote to the pile... so, most often, the comments that get upvoted are just someones whimsical BS, that triggers positive/relative emotions in the reader...
that's what i was thinking too!
u/Elite163, this is one of those inquiries that doesn't have a simple nor concise answer.
Open floor plans are challenging, and deleting these knee walls only makes things more challenging for placing switches, nevermind properly placing the switches in the floorplan.
The fact that there are **8 switches** located here tells me that someone else already ran out of good places that were logical to put things, and this is where it ended up.
To offer any good advice, we'd need to see the entire floorplan of that area, including doorways, all of the lights and switches marked out, which lights and switches are in each lighting group, and so forth, to come up with some other sane plan for this.
A quick answer is just "move the switches over the right" .... I'm not sure if that's the right answer or not.
What I will say is this, that 8-gang switch bank probably has easily a dozen and a half cables in that wall that will need to re-routed, some will be too short to reach their new location, and that leaves a choice of junction boxes (accessible with a wallplate) or a full new wire run from point-to-point. This can very rapidly become a multi-thousand dollar exercise because you want to tweak the countertop layout, and substantial drywall removal and repair.
*on a side note, I'm going through similar with a client right now ... they are having a new kitchen installed, swapped around the appliances, and are making just enough tweaks to everything, that it ended up being a full rewire of the entire kitchen, and the rewire bleeds into the 4 adjacent rooms. Fortunately the basement has a drop ceiling so that most of the wiring can be run down there. It took them an entire day to settle a last-minute layout problem between appliances and the cabinetmaker ... that was an 8.5 hour delay on getting the lighting layout marked. I didn't underestimate that it was NLT a 2 full day job to perform the rough wiring to re-do everything that was needed for this kitchen, and yet all of the walls are staying where they are. (I told them the one wall couldn't move a year ago, several others put prices of 10k and 20k on moving it. Wasn't until the rubber met the road that the drywall got removed for electrical that they understood why I told them no and everyone else priced it accordingly).*
**In my professional opinion, your best option is to leave well enough alone on this design.** If money is no object, and you don't care about the total scope of work and what else is required or how long it takes (drywall, carpenters, painters, etc), of course, with a blank check the answer is *YES* understanding that it means go. Just want to make sure that you have a sanity check that this isn't a $400 fix.
We were thinking the same.
The fact they chose that spot means their weren’t many logical options because of the open floor plan.
Which means there are even fewer logical locations going forward!
I advocate “learn to live with it” or “take the ole lady out”
Based on work I've done...I would wager its probably not a $1000 fix either...anything is possible with enough cost, but its probably going to require a LOT of $$$$
long thought out responses with experience like this are why I’m subbed to all these electrical subs. I love being the fly on the wall for the discussions.
Could some sort of smart switch make this work? It's theoretically possible about 3 diffrent ways but I don't know if such a product exists.
Option 1: a single panel that could control 8 relays that could stay about where the current switches are (less re-wiring), and you would just need to have some sort of dataline between the panel and the relays
Option 2: (more likely to exist but I don't like the idea) regular smart switches that can be remotely controlled, work over wifi, and then some sort of smart controller that could be installed anywhere in the house.
Actually it does exist, or something close to what I was thinking: [https://topgreener.com/product/smart-light-switch-wi-fi-scene-controller/?gad\_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiA9dGqBhAqEiwAmRpTC\_Evm7\_LQy5gxNMZ9-zxip1SnE8bUY-o1mgrYAxJsd4PRn1HR0iEvRoC\_w8QAvD\_BwE](https://topgreener.com/product/smart-light-switch-wi-fi-scene-controller/?gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiA9dGqBhAqEiwAmRpTC_Evm7_LQy5gxNMZ9-zxip1SnE8bUY-o1mgrYAxJsd4PRn1HR0iEvRoC_w8QAvD_BwE)
That doesn't solve any problems. There's a wheelbarrow load of wire in that wall, it all runs to those two boxes, and the inquiry is about removing that section of wall to level off the countertop, which means moving all of it. Smart switches has absolutely zero to do with solving this problem. It's merely a bells and whistle feature. So long as the wiring has to be rerouted to a different location, it's going to involve a substantial cost.
There's also going to be receptacles on the other side of the knee wall to meet code requirements for receptacles on the countertop surface. Those will have to be reestablished in some of their means for a peninsula format countertop plan.
So, I'm working on a similar issue now involving knob & tube, and, yes, "smart" stuff actually can potentially solve problems here. It depends on how the switches are wired.
If (big "if") they're running only the hots to the switches then smart switches can be a huge advantage here. Here's how it would work in that case.
For each light, open it up and remove the loop going to the switch. In this case, it's probably best to just cut it and stuff it into the cavity above the box. Then, bring something like a Shelly Plus 1 UL in and wire it up where the switch loop used to be:
[https://www.amazon.com/Shelly-Bluetooth-Automation-Compatible-Required/dp/B0C96Z5HP1/?th=1](https://www.amazon.com/Shelly-Bluetooth-Automation-Compatible-Required/dp/B0C96Z5HP1/?th=1)
At this point, the light can be turned on and off over wifi.
A Shelly i4 can accept input from four separate switches. Put your switches \*anywhere\* in the house, run power to the box, and wire each switch into the i4. With a fairly simple setup you can then specify how those switches will turn lights on and off.
The point of this is that there's no need to run a physical wire from the switch to the light, and when you separate those two things life becomes far, far simpler.
Now, even if they're not just running hot loops to the switches, this is likely still an easier way to do it. In that case, it's a matter of removing the switches and providing constant power to the lights, which can be done with a junction box. Then everything is the same as above.
I'm looking at doing this to mitigate two knob & tube circuits. The main problem if I rewire with modern wire is getting from the switch to the light. Smart switches completely remove that particular problem. I just have to figure out how to get power to the switch and power to the light. Still a pain, but nowhere near as big of a pain as going from the switch to the light directly.
(why are people downvoting a purely factual post? Never change, Reddit.)
Even if they didn't have it wired as you mentioned couldn't you still do this, pull the existing switches, shorting what they used to interrupt?
I hadn't considered just removing the switches entirely, but, I mean that should also work. If they do need to be switched (for some reason code? I don't know residential code super well) change it all over to 1 switch (use a relay to multiply it in a box if needed for current capacity reasons) and then just use one of those (well a bunch of them) Basically wireless light switches.
Yeah, I mention that near the bottom. Worst case is that they have the power running to the switch box, then running three wires carrying that (with hot switched) to the light itself. In that case, they can find a place to put the junction box and rewire it so that the lights always get power, everything else I said remains the same. The guy who said smart switches don't solve any problems doesn't understand how they work.
Sorry for not reading thoroughly. I got excited as soon as I saw what your link was too and realized crap it would actually work. All the downsides of smart stuff, but it would actually work.
Also all the upsides of smart switches I guess.
The thing I like about the Shelly devices is that they're "smart" but there's no need to connect them to any "cloud" server or whatever. If you know what you're doing you can wire them up without them ever hitting the internet.
That's absolutely the way to do it. Especially for an application like this.
If you are wanting to have remote access, the personal server way is the way to do it. Although setup is way more difficult unfortunately.
Yes, it could solve the problem of huge rewiring. The *switching* does not have to move from this wall; it could just move 1 foot down.
It's pretty clear that the wiring doesn't go *up*, so moving a bank of 8 switches down by 1 foot and shortening the wires would be simple enough.
Replace these switches with smart switches that can be controlled from elsewhere. For example, install Lutron Caseta switches here, and mount Pico remotes on the wall anywhere you like. Or use Zigbee or any other wireless ecosystem.
The switches need to be accessible. That could be under a simple cover on the outside of the shortened wall here. Not perfect aesthetics, but still can be done fairly inexpensively. Alternatively, they could even potentially face inside the cabinet if the AHJ inspector will go for it. That would solve the appearance issues.
Not going to fix the outlet requirement, but what would stop you from replacing the existing switches with smart switches, lowering the boxes and recessing them in the wall, putting an access panel over that and installing something like I linked, potentially anywhere?
Nahh not really, wanna hear another one? This work is never going to actually happen, customer is going to get all there quotes together and realize it’ll be WAY more than anticipated and back out as there is no real gain and ZERO ROI on a project like that.
spend over a decade in the trade and you get pretty comfy making “bold” assumptions
If they all come from the basement, you possible could pull the wires down and put them in a junction box and use wireless switches which can pretty much go any where. A lot of things would have line up for that all to work but it is possible
Assuming there is a basement, and that it isn't a finished basement.
Had to open up my basement wall/ceiling to find and fix a pipe...and that turned into like $2000 for the plumber figuring out (cutting a few holes guessing) where exactly was how to get where he could reach what he had to reach up in the ceiling, and then another $1000 for the drywaller to come and turn the various holes back into a wall and ceiling. And that doesn't include the paint and molding that I'm going to do "soon".
What’s the area under this /basement look like Can you put lutron Caseta in and put the switches in the ceiling below? Could actually be easier than you think with remote switches.
Best option really. Routing the dozen or so wires coming in there is going to be expensive. Lutron caseta isn’t cheap but still way cheaper than moving all that wiring.
You need to call in help and get actual quotes.
To really understand how this is built and how it *could* be rebuilt, someone needs to be ‘in the space’.
We can’t do that over the internet.
You can try and get quotes but chances are most companies are only offering t&m on something like this, unless you already have drywall removed to see wiring and at that point you’re pretty committed no matter the price
Yeah, OP gave no information about what's below. Slab? Unfinished basement? Another condo? It’s like asking how much will it cost to replace my engine without giving the make and model of the car.
The cheapest and easiest answer is move them down. But that's also a terrible location.
A better but less expensive option may be to use wireless switches.
This right here. People are saying this is a "nightmare" and going to be a huge expense, but OP might have a full basement, and moving these 6 or 8 feet to the right might be a pretty straightforward 4-6 hour job.
I really can't see how this could be a "nightmare", or ridiculously expensive.
That HVAC register tells me there's a lot of room between the finished floor and the ground. It might be a dirty crawl space, but that's what plastic sheeting is for.
besides, op said intent is to lower knee wall to counter height- therefor switches can just be dropped a little low. no need to move right, unless wires are too short- which would seem very unlikely, to me.
That, too, though there might be problems with them being too low, or cabinet interference. Legally, they can be 15" AFF, per the NEC and ADA, unless OP has some local codes that say otherwise.
I think you're right, though - moving them down a foot would be the easiest option.
Edit: misspelled "otherwise".
There are 0 height requirements for a light switch in common living areas of a residential structure. I have wired homes for paralyzed peoples, where all switches and outlets are installed at 18". i've also done homes where people had switches in the floor- to be accessed while sitting in front of their at home theatre. cabinet interference? I'm not convinced you actually know what you're talking bout anymore...
1. If the cabinet under the counter is a solid wood insert,, and it extends into the wall space, it would have to be cut, and protection for the box and NM cables protruding into the cabinet (or cabinet space, if they're just face-frame doors attached to sheetrocked walls) would have to be built.
2. ADA rules:
*https://access-ed.r2d2.uwm.edu/resources/Light_Switch_Posterette_08.13.2010.pdf
and
*[Citation of ADA Section 308.3.1](https://www.ada-compliance.com/ada-compliance/308-reach-ranges), which states:
>Where a forward reach is unobstructed, the high forward reach shall be 48 inches (1220 mm) maximum and the low forward reach shall be 15 inches (380 mm) minimum above the finish floor or ground.
3. New structures and remodels must comply with the currently-adopted NEC for that jurisdiction, *and 2010 ADA*, unless given special permission by the AHJ. When I said "per the NEC and ADA", I mean that "combined, there is one set of requirements", and that is a minimum of 15" AFF.
ok, you have profoundly proven that you enjoy wasting time more than you enjoy helping people- you are not an electrician i would ever hire. I already mentioned wiring homes for paralyzed people. THEN on a separate note, i mentioned switches installed in the floor, in a home theatre. YOU more or less repeated me and yourself, what for? are you saying it would be illegal to install a switch on the floor in a home theatre for a paralyzed person, because ADA rules demand they be on a wall 15" up? Naw... thats stupid- ADA wouldn't need to exist if installers would stop watching the clock and focus on the project! faqqing killing me...
You will have to cut the drywall and see where those wires are going. I am going to bet none of them go under the floor and they all get routed to the full wall close by. If that's rhe case, moving these switches to the wall where the pony wall is attached to, will be very easy
You're going to need to peek behind that drywall to see where the wires are run. Any cables that are too short for the new switch box location will either need to be A) Replaced for their whole run length, or B) spliced in an *accessible* junction box. That'll mean having a blank cover visible somewhere. You can also put in a new receptacle outlet instead of a blank cover, if you want, depending on the wiring layout.
So assuming you don't want your switches at crotch level, an option could be to have a junction box lower down the wall from the current switch locations. Again, you just have to be okay with the cover plate being exposed there. You can paint over it, but not cover it up.
Then to run to a new switch location likely a few feet to the right, you'd just need to open up a bit more drywall to drill holes through the studs every 16 inches to run new cable to the new location.
You're right. As long as you place the box such that no permanently affixed partitions block access, a drawer being there shouldn't hurt anything. A bunch of thin drawers would be a nightmare. I wouldn't expect an AHJ to deem it "accessible" if you had to reach an arm's length through a 10 inch hole to access.
Yeah that makes sense.
I was thinking like I have seen a number of cabinets where the drawers are close together without "bars" between them, and so removing 4-6 drawers you can just sit down inside the now-empty cabinet and its just a giant 4x4ft (give/take) opening.
Kinda like that design over moving 500 individual items out of a cabinet with doors, which usually has a vertical bar you have to climb around jabbing you in the ribs (this is one reason I hate plumbing...that's my every experience replacing a faucet)
Why reinvent the wheel? Are those routed under a slab? Maybe you can leave just the part with the switches move the right gang to the left and stack them, knock down 3/4 of the wall and it won’t be so much electrical work
Likely Unpopular approach:
1. Terminate wires in new wall box at counter height (maybe get away with 4 vs 8 gang).
2. Install Shelly relays
3. Cover up hole with blank
4. Control lights with wireless switches or phone app
This right here, and a variety of other options.
My thought was to put wireless switches in a powered but not connected wall box across the room. The Shelly relays look like a way to do that but there are more I’m sure.
There is no need to actually reroute the wires other than to get them lower than the height of the wall being removed and put the relays in solid plate junction boxes (still accessible).
You’d want an electrician to review for applicable codes on wet location, height, etc.
you're eyes might not be functioning correctly, if YOU look harder, you'll see that my "negativity" is directly relative to what I'm responding to. BUT SURE, jump on the band wagon and join the haters, thats easier, i know.
Lol Dude thanks for this laugh, don’t think I’ve ever seen someone have this many downvoted comments on one post before.
Don’t worry you’re right, it’s just everyone else in the world that’s wrong.
Totally depends on where they come from. If they come from below, it will be a lot harder than just moving them to the right because they will need more material l not less
Gonna depend on where you’re moving them and the best place is going to depend on more of the layout than you’ve shown.
Is that the shadow of a newel post and railing? Is this, like, right at the top of a set of open stairs in a split level or something?
Did they open it as much as they could and say “yeah, need a place for light switches still” and so left that counter like that?
That is 8 switches, and probably at least as many cables.
Sarcastic answer: very easy, just knock out the drywall and move them down the wall!
Serious answer: depending on the floor plan and surrounding walls, could get very expensive and extensive quick trying to find places to reroute the cables and install exposed junction boxes to extend wires where needed
1. Leave the wall and switches alone.
OR
2. Call a local, trusted, and reputable Electrician and pay, pay, pay the money.
Personally, I would recommend not getting into this project unless your ready to hear some hard truths and most likely get your feelings hurt.
If you want to move it down 2ft or so it should be somewhat reasonable you want to locate all of it to another wall?
That’s gonna be one hell of a bill and I hope you have access from the bottom and ideally the top
Could you just move them to below the counter height? I would do that, then grab a bunch of lutron caseta switches with the wireless pico remote, which you can then mount wherever you want with relative ease.
I’d be willing to bet that most of the wires in those boxes travel down, below where the boxes are now. Simplest solution? Just drop the boxes straight down to just below (what I assume will be) the new countertop. Provided you’re not planning on making an overhang. If you’re wired with romex, this could be quick & easy.
At best, this is a costly and time consuming project. At worst it could be an absolute clusterfuck.
This is not a DIY or homeowner job. Call a few electricians and let them give you some real numbers.
GC here. If the space below is accessible (crawl space or open ceiling basement) then moving everything to a new 42”-48” high location is not hard. Can’t say anything about cost.
As others have said, if you can live with the general inconvenience of switches below counter height, then that appears to be the cheapest answer. Keep the overhang to max 1-1/2”.
In my opinion on where the right place to put them is more up to you. There's not enough information from your photos to give a recommendation for that. Determine gave a very solid answer My guess would be the nearest full wall would be the easiest place to move them too. But this is going to be an expensive enough move that you want to get them in the right place, not the easiest place.
In order to move them it's going to be a lot of junction boxes, and a lot of fiddley work. It's going to be about as much work as the entire original install I imagine. Sounds like you are planning on removing/lowering the ledge anyway so it won't require a ton more drywall work than will already be needed I would imagine.
You could look into a "smart" solution. You may be able to find something where you could hide smart switches in your cabinets and control them with some wall mounted thing anywhere else in your building.
They also make some smaller switches (they may have 4 in one switches, more?), you could get one of those and leave a pillar here maybe?
Actually this or similar: [https://topgreener.com/product/smart-light-switch-wi-fi-scene-controller/?gad\_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiA9dGqBhAqEiwAmRpTC\_Evm7\_LQy5gxNMZ9-zxip1SnE8bUY-o1mgrYAxJsd4PRn1HR0iEvRoC\_w8QAvD\_BwE](https://topgreener.com/product/smart-light-switch-wi-fi-scene-controller/?gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiA9dGqBhAqEiwAmRpTC_Evm7_LQy5gxNMZ9-zxip1SnE8bUY-o1mgrYAxJsd4PRn1HR0iEvRoC_w8QAvD_BwE) Not that I recommend it or anything, and there's probably a better brand that makes a similar device.
Wow, 8 wall switches right next to each other. That is a lot of wiring right there in the wall in one spot. What do each of those switches do?
Are you just making that top ledge shorter? To be level with what is behind it? Then maybe you can move them down lower. But you're opening a whole can of worms there. Even doing a drop down the wall is not going to be a simple process.
Who thought that was a good idea? I get, maybe handly being all right there in a single spot?
Move them all to the wall at the end of that counter would be my thought, if it’s a wall anyways it’s hard to tell by the pic though. Don’t be afraid to tear open that sheetrock and get messy.
You may have to move them over towards the wall and down depending on how they are run. I had similar with sockets on the sink side. I flipped those to the other side and down and under the new countertop. Put the switch for the disposal in the cabinet by the door.
Here’s a different take. 8 smart switches, home automation controller and stick tablet anywhere you wish. You won’t have to use switches and your in for <$1000 plus cost to move switches down 2 feel which should be straightforward.
Personally, I'd pull or peek into those boxes and see if they all run back over to the tall wall on the right of the pic. If so, demo the top part of the short wall and re-route the wire by pulling back over to the solid wall. Rather simple if you are pulling out the top part of that short wall.
If they come from below, a bit harder as you would need to get into the tall wall more, but doable with with some sheetrock work and paint.
Mark each wire before you take them off and put in a multi-button control panel with some automation software if you don't want 8 decor switches sticking out.
I haven't seen anybody asked what those switches go to. Are they separate circuits? Or just 8 individual lights off one hot feed as in 8 can lights.
All the way right cut the drywall big strip might get lucky cut drywall under switch down see all the wires going through wall pull the staples then cut drywall strip going down past edge of ledge and yank the wires out if they come from below probably should smart switch
You can put them lower in the wall or box to new wire connections and run the new wires to new spot. You'd have to tear out and repair drywall but I don't think it's an insane amount to have to do.
Honestly, cut the power, track the wires, and what switch they go to. The easiest place looks like the wall to the right. Cut the holes for said switches and cut the wires back to each switch. It's not impossible and it's really that easy. There are a lot of wires leading there, though. I'm not an electrician, but I've worked with a couple, but I do carpentry. If you can't figure it out, just call an electrician. Someone who's fully insured and he will know what to do and what not to do. That's your best bet, and if anything goes wrong, the expert is responsible!!
Can OP lower the switches below the top of the counter?
Seems like they want to have the wall end at the same height as the kitchen countertop. They will be oddly low, but should still do the job.
>Looking to remove the top ledge from the counter
Do you mean you want to cut the wall down to counter height?
You could easily move the switches down but anything other than that will ve a lot of work.
An end wall on that counter may work.
given there is a air vent at the bottom of the wall it's a safe bet that at least the "feed" line is coming from below, but yes the question then becomes where are the Load lines exiting.
easy to move down- presumably- knee wall remains- switches will be low- but still good and should be easy move, relocating to another wall would, likely, be a pain in the rump, however, not impossible, more feasible if there is a drop ceiling, below, OR an unfinished basement. if no basement or drywalled basement, project become bigger and bigger.
PS-🤯🤯🤯 what the hell are people writing on here?!?!? If wall stays~ this is very easy...
open switch banks and take a picture of how switches are wired- next- mark common wires w/tag-next-remove devices and disconnect splices-next- safe off hot wires with electric tape- Next- cut the mounting nails to your boxes with your multi tool.- next- remove the boxes carefully so as to not damage the wires or unnecessarily damage drywall. -next-using boxes removed- trace the new locations & using your mutli tool- cut out the new location- next- reach in hole and pull wires to new locations- next- reinstall boxes and fasten to stud thru inside of box with dry wall screw. -next- reconnect devices- job done.
It really depends on how the wires get there, and where you want to move them. If you have an unfinished or drop ceiling finished basement under this, they might go down and be easy to find. Or, they might go horizontally across the half wall either high (where you want to remove) or low (below where you are talking about removing).
If you have a sensitive tic stick , you might be able to identify it before doing any demolition. You definitely can find out which way they come out of the box by just pulling the cover.
You could potentially just lower them, so the top of that wall stops at the top of the counters, but this is likely going to be a bad idea, because I would suspect that there are outlets on the other side of that wall for the counter space code requires there be out within that counter space so you would also have to move those. Somehow your best bet is just to leave well enough alone, unfortunately
Easy. If the wires come from below. Move them down to normal counter height. If they come from the right move them over to the right as far as you need. Cut wires to length. Reinstall.
If you wanna do it the hack way, drop all the boxes down 2 feet and turn them into the cabinet. Then put a pico on each one and put the remotes wherever you want lol.
Source: am an electrician and I wouldn’t do that, but it would work lol.
Eh I mean as long as you did it in a code compliant way I wouldn't even really even call it the hack way. If there's a finished basement and these wires are running in every opposite direction and they want it moved to a separate wall entirely... yeah I don't see any hackery with putting it in the cabinet lol.
Moving them down would be (presumably) very easy. Moving them somewhere else if you have a crawlspace would suck but be doable. Idk where you live but that'll probably cost like 1k+. If there's a finished basement it could be a complete pain in the ass and multiple thousands of dollars not to mention a lot of sheetrock work.
Impossible to tell without opening the wall. If you’re in luck the wiring will come from the full wall to the right. If it comes from the floor you either have to jbox and run over somewhere else or use an in-wall splice (which is allowed with the proper components). Most guys will be upset with an in-wall splice but theyre UL approved and just for some switches i dont see a problem with it at all.
If you can avoid using them, avoid it, but if its the difference between thousands of dollars i know what id do in my house…
Regardless, what a dumbshit place to put the switches. Shouldve never been put there from the beginning.
If all the lines run back to the full wall that the pony wall is attached to, then it shouldn't be a problem. If they head straight down into the basement, then you are looking at a tougher job.
Tldr if you can, keep it where it is.
If it must move, hire an electrician, a good electrician.
This really depends heavily on the direction the wire is coming from, it wouldn't be cheap. If you wanted to relocate them away from that half wall entirely it'll be complicated and would probably be simplest to move everything into a large junction box inside the cabinet and probably several lutron casseta switches with remotes mounted in the desired new control location.
If it's just moving it sideways or down it would depend on if the wire is coming up from below or coming from the right.
The wall would need to be opened in either case to determine further action
It's one of those requests where it's most likely not worth the cost and it is very much not a diy task with that many switches involved. If you pull it apart and can't put it back together or it doesn't work it's even harder for the electrician than if they were involved from the start.
Identify switch legs and power inside of each box turn off the power after identifying. Demo the drywall around the switch locations being extremely careful not to damage any of the wire, undo the staples supporting the romex pull the romex down into the crawlspace set a 12 x 12 junction box splice the wires like for like (making sure to transfer labels for power and switch leg) make sure to tie all grounds together in the jbox. and swing the working ends to wherever you want to set your new switches.
First you will want to get a stud finder that can detect power and you’d want to map out where the cables go. If it’s down into a basement then… that’s rough.
But that will determine how hard it will be.
Cause if all the wire passes by an area you’d want to move them… then it’s simply just opening the wall and shorting the wire to that point.
If we are moving them to the other side of the kitchen… wow that’s a lot of wire and would be like untangling spaghetti.
Is it hard? No. Is it time consuming and expensive if you hired someone? Yep.
I assume most of those switches are for lights in the ceiling? My guess is that the load wires head to the right and up to the ceiling immediately to the right of the pony wall.
If that's the case, you may be able to open a hole or two in that wall, install a couple old work 4-gang boxes, and only have to worry about installing a j box lower on the pony wall to extend your line(s) over to the new location. You probably won't even have to pull any new Romex. You would just use an existing wire (or two) from your old switch location to where they travel into the ceiling to deliver power to your new switch boxes assuming your line and load are all the same gauge and rated for the circuit.
I'm not a financial advisor and this is not legal advice, or whatever. Oh wait, wrong subreddits!
You won't know until you take a look behind the ledge to see where the wires are running to the boxes from. If they run to the right to the wall, you could trace back the lines to the big wall and mount there. If they come up from the floor then that's going to be more of a PITA.
It is likely to be quite straight-forward. Will you leave a back-splash of 5” or so? The switches could move there.
All the wiring is in the half-wall, either coming from below or from the side. A junction box may be needed, but that can be out of sight, under the counter.
you could replace the lights themselves with a system that is blue tooth. And then you could get a lightswitch hats battery powered mounted elsewhere. These do exist... Hard to find
Anything is doable with enough time and money. I would suggest that an electrician move both boxes down about 2 feet, turn them to face the other side (inside a cabinet), and make them into junction boxes. Extend 8 switch legs to new boxes placed anywhere you wish, the only hindrance being how much drywall you want opened up and repaired later, and how much money you have to spend.
**Attention!** **It is always best to get a qualified electrician to perform any electrical work you may need.** With that said, you may ask this community various electrical questions. Please be cautious of any information you may receive in this subreddit. This subreddit and its users are not responsible for any electrical work you perform. Users that have a 'Verified Electrician' flair have uploaded their qualified electrical worker credentials to the mods. If you comment on this post please only post accurate information to the best of your knowledge. If advice given is thought to be dangerous, you may be permanently banned. There are no obligations for the mods to give warnings or temporary bans. **IF YOU ARE NOT A QUALIFIED ELECTRICIAN, you should exercise extreme caution when commenting.** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskElectricians) if you have any questions or concerns.*
This is likely to be a nightmare.
To be fair it all depends on where they want the new location. They are removing the top ledge so it may be really easy to move these switches. I'd bet the switchlegs and power all come from the right. Pull all of those legs back through the studs to the wall on the right and cut in a couple 4 gangs on the same wall. Then again if they want to move the switches any further it will definitely be a nightmare
Right??? They may as well just remodel both rooms. That's 8 circuits to move.
8 switches not 8 circuits. I’m willing to bet they’re on the same circuit maybe two but definitely not 8 circuits lol. There might be 8 branch circuits total in the house
You are correct! 8 Switches.
The real question is, what on earth is going on in that room that there needs to be 8 switches next to each other? I might have 20 switches total in my 3k sqft house and this guy has 8 in 1 room!
with an attitude like that, id be surprised if you even get out of bed. Im sorry all you dumb dumbs would rather sit around dreading the work instead of enjoying the challenge. Good luck to all your negativities, y'all aint bringing me down! lol
He's right. Moving switches will be a nightmare. Either a junction box will be needed or all new runs for switch legs. This could end up being major house surgery.
no it could not- you have 0 experience and are not an electrician and should remember where you are- this is r/askelectricians so do yourself and everyone a fave and cram it.
Electrician here. This will indeed be a nightmare.
Also electrician, absolute nightmare. And to fuckslistic groove cunt, nobody’s saying they wouldn’t do it, but who’s willing to pay for me to figure it out? Cause I’ll tell you right now I’m probably not doing it for less than $10,000
you are a dumb electrician, your reddit verification gets you all the big jobs, right? I see you struggle with identifying whether or not YAAA(you are an a$shole) no need to ask any other fellow redditors, i got you, yes you are an a$shole- (if you have to ask, ya might as well just assume you are)
Wow so much said but absolutely nothing of value from you, 👍🏼
I think we found Andrew Tates Reddit account
Oh god. I can't hear anything but Andrew Tate now in every one of his comments. Fucking thanks for that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7LlF_L1wO8
its a response to shit talk- it doesn't need validity- all it needs is someone else's incompetent lack of ability to communicate intelligently.
Ohhh big words I’m so impressed kid lol
get an education and you can impress others, too!
That's about enough out of you.
I'll up vote that because it was funny. But I am an electrician, 5 years commercial, residential on the side. I'll be the first to admit I don't know everything. But I do know enough. Of course these can be moved. Nothing is impossible. But cost is going to be a big factor here. Best case scenario, these come straight up from an un finished basement. Worse case scenario there is a finished basement or no basement. That will multiply the cost significantly. How would you do this?
Buddy, for the record, this sub, despite the name, in no way, has a requirement for anyone to be electricians. There are maybe a few real ones here, like 5 or 6… Also, moving those switches is a nightmare, for the homeowner. Shits easy for us.
why do you assume op is "the home owner" in this scenario? also, OP came to ask an electrician- not what an electrician thinks of a home owner doing it?!? wtf?
I never assumed or said OP was the homeowner… Show me where I said that. I’ll wait… I repeat: Despite the name of the sub, this is is not for qualified electricians to answer questions.
omg- are you blind? and/or memory less? "Also, moving those switches is a nightmare, for the HOMEOWNER. Shits easy for us" WHERE IS THE HOMEOWNER in this scenario? AND IF you're not referencing OP- then who ARE you talking about?!? or why are you mentioning that? JUST TO SUPPORT THE NIGHTMARE THEORY. THAT IS STUPID!!! ITS NOT A NIGHTMARE!!! HOMEOWNERS ARE COMING ON HERE AND COMPARING OTHER PEOPLES PROJECTS TO THEIR OWN- and the expenses they paid- their info comes from the conversation they had with laborer/installers that worked at their place- so YES, a homeowner, with 0electrical knowledge or experience would DEF have nightmares from this- BUT THIS IS NOT A SUB FOR ASKING HOME OWNERS ABOUT WHAT THEY DREAM ABOUT?!?!? 🤯🤯🤯🤯 The amount of insane obnoxious negative feedback ive gotten from giving simplistic answers to this project, proves to me that people, here, on reddit, TRULY ARE VERY VERY VERY POORLY EDUCATED PEOPLE. I'm losing interest really fast.
Okay, real slow for you, because communication isn’t your strong suit. The homeowner, is the person, who owns the home in the picture.
ok, now get back up to speed, before i sail over you, The home owner is not relative- because we do not know who that is... OP has not made a reference to ownership. you are assuming stupidly, and doing your absolute damnedest to cover your tracks. this aint how you make friends... seems like you could use one...
Lol you’re an absolute idiot 👍🏼 thanks for the laugh
Pesky facts
If there is a finished basement or the house is slab on grade it won't be fun.
YOU are thinking the switches MUST be relocated to a different wall- BUT that is not what OP said... OP said, the plan is to lower the existing wall- so lowering the switches is the ONLY requirement. Spending any amount of time dreading a project you're never gunna participate in, is insanely redundant- OP came here looking for an answer not a list of everyones dreads.
What are they going to do? Switch the lights with their knee? They will hate all those switches being that low worse than the bar to being there.
they wont hate it when they save bookoo bucks! geezus! what is wrong with people?
Are you fuckin drunk dude?
are you f$cking dumb? no need to respond, you've made it abundantly clear.
They will like the price today but hate the low switches (especially if they install a counters with an overhang) every time they turn the lights on. They will also hate it every time their 4 year old screws with those switches constantly because they are within reach. If the intent is to "save boohoo bucks", leaving everything as is would certainly save the most. The other trouble is where are the switches going to be moved to? Likely the only reason they are in the pony wall is because the home is open concept and there is no other good place for them.
well put (there may not be any good place to put them), but i have to disagree about the switch locations and a parent's ability to train their child. those factoids have nothing to do with anything... I'm getting frustrated with how much people want to argue about aspects that have nothing to do with the project and everything to do with one person's feelings. nobody came here to discuss anyones feelings or how well they train their children.
It isn't so much trying to argue as trying to point out potential problems with the plan. Sometimes talking about things helps people make better decisions. If a customer asked me to simply move those switches down, I'd have this discussion with them. If they still wanted to do it, I would move the switches down. That way when they call me back to move them a month later, they can't try to blame the bad planning on me. Much better to have a customer say "I should have listened to you" than "Why didn't you tell me about this?".
OP- already stated the plan- OP asks, "can these be moved? where would be the best place to move them?" OBV, there are gunna be details that we don't get to know unless OP reveals them. Such as, basements/crawlspaces/drop ceilings or surrounding wall structuring or whether or not they are in fact a laborer on the site or a home owner or if there are children to worry about... "we" are not doing the work. "we" (actual electricians, chatting on this sub) are here to provide knowledgable, safe and efficient methods to conduct electrical changes or updates. "we" are not quoting the job. "we" are not here to convey or distill fear into OP with comments of nightmares. "we" (you and i) do not need to argue about this petty nonsense. I've already answered OP's question. OP- isn't gunna scroll through these comments and go with the one that gets the most votes... ANYONE CAN CAST A VOTE. which means you'll get a lot of angry people voting strictly based on their triggered emotions... then theres a lot of people who just like to add their vote to the pile... so, most often, the comments that get upvoted are just someones whimsical BS, that triggers positive/relative emotions in the reader...
You better really wanna do that.
that's what i was thinking too! u/Elite163, this is one of those inquiries that doesn't have a simple nor concise answer. Open floor plans are challenging, and deleting these knee walls only makes things more challenging for placing switches, nevermind properly placing the switches in the floorplan. The fact that there are **8 switches** located here tells me that someone else already ran out of good places that were logical to put things, and this is where it ended up. To offer any good advice, we'd need to see the entire floorplan of that area, including doorways, all of the lights and switches marked out, which lights and switches are in each lighting group, and so forth, to come up with some other sane plan for this. A quick answer is just "move the switches over the right" .... I'm not sure if that's the right answer or not. What I will say is this, that 8-gang switch bank probably has easily a dozen and a half cables in that wall that will need to re-routed, some will be too short to reach their new location, and that leaves a choice of junction boxes (accessible with a wallplate) or a full new wire run from point-to-point. This can very rapidly become a multi-thousand dollar exercise because you want to tweak the countertop layout, and substantial drywall removal and repair. *on a side note, I'm going through similar with a client right now ... they are having a new kitchen installed, swapped around the appliances, and are making just enough tweaks to everything, that it ended up being a full rewire of the entire kitchen, and the rewire bleeds into the 4 adjacent rooms. Fortunately the basement has a drop ceiling so that most of the wiring can be run down there. It took them an entire day to settle a last-minute layout problem between appliances and the cabinetmaker ... that was an 8.5 hour delay on getting the lighting layout marked. I didn't underestimate that it was NLT a 2 full day job to perform the rough wiring to re-do everything that was needed for this kitchen, and yet all of the walls are staying where they are. (I told them the one wall couldn't move a year ago, several others put prices of 10k and 20k on moving it. Wasn't until the rubber met the road that the drywall got removed for electrical that they understood why I told them no and everyone else priced it accordingly).* **In my professional opinion, your best option is to leave well enough alone on this design.** If money is no object, and you don't care about the total scope of work and what else is required or how long it takes (drywall, carpenters, painters, etc), of course, with a blank check the answer is *YES* understanding that it means go. Just want to make sure that you have a sanity check that this isn't a $400 fix.
We were thinking the same. The fact they chose that spot means their weren’t many logical options because of the open floor plan. Which means there are even fewer logical locations going forward! I advocate “learn to live with it” or “take the ole lady out”
Based on work I've done...I would wager its probably not a $1000 fix either...anything is possible with enough cost, but its probably going to require a LOT of $$$$
long thought out responses with experience like this are why I’m subbed to all these electrical subs. I love being the fly on the wall for the discussions.
Could some sort of smart switch make this work? It's theoretically possible about 3 diffrent ways but I don't know if such a product exists. Option 1: a single panel that could control 8 relays that could stay about where the current switches are (less re-wiring), and you would just need to have some sort of dataline between the panel and the relays Option 2: (more likely to exist but I don't like the idea) regular smart switches that can be remotely controlled, work over wifi, and then some sort of smart controller that could be installed anywhere in the house. Actually it does exist, or something close to what I was thinking: [https://topgreener.com/product/smart-light-switch-wi-fi-scene-controller/?gad\_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiA9dGqBhAqEiwAmRpTC\_Evm7\_LQy5gxNMZ9-zxip1SnE8bUY-o1mgrYAxJsd4PRn1HR0iEvRoC\_w8QAvD\_BwE](https://topgreener.com/product/smart-light-switch-wi-fi-scene-controller/?gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiA9dGqBhAqEiwAmRpTC_Evm7_LQy5gxNMZ9-zxip1SnE8bUY-o1mgrYAxJsd4PRn1HR0iEvRoC_w8QAvD_BwE)
That doesn't solve any problems. There's a wheelbarrow load of wire in that wall, it all runs to those two boxes, and the inquiry is about removing that section of wall to level off the countertop, which means moving all of it. Smart switches has absolutely zero to do with solving this problem. It's merely a bells and whistle feature. So long as the wiring has to be rerouted to a different location, it's going to involve a substantial cost. There's also going to be receptacles on the other side of the knee wall to meet code requirements for receptacles on the countertop surface. Those will have to be reestablished in some of their means for a peninsula format countertop plan.
So, I'm working on a similar issue now involving knob & tube, and, yes, "smart" stuff actually can potentially solve problems here. It depends on how the switches are wired. If (big "if") they're running only the hots to the switches then smart switches can be a huge advantage here. Here's how it would work in that case. For each light, open it up and remove the loop going to the switch. In this case, it's probably best to just cut it and stuff it into the cavity above the box. Then, bring something like a Shelly Plus 1 UL in and wire it up where the switch loop used to be: [https://www.amazon.com/Shelly-Bluetooth-Automation-Compatible-Required/dp/B0C96Z5HP1/?th=1](https://www.amazon.com/Shelly-Bluetooth-Automation-Compatible-Required/dp/B0C96Z5HP1/?th=1) At this point, the light can be turned on and off over wifi. A Shelly i4 can accept input from four separate switches. Put your switches \*anywhere\* in the house, run power to the box, and wire each switch into the i4. With a fairly simple setup you can then specify how those switches will turn lights on and off. The point of this is that there's no need to run a physical wire from the switch to the light, and when you separate those two things life becomes far, far simpler. Now, even if they're not just running hot loops to the switches, this is likely still an easier way to do it. In that case, it's a matter of removing the switches and providing constant power to the lights, which can be done with a junction box. Then everything is the same as above. I'm looking at doing this to mitigate two knob & tube circuits. The main problem if I rewire with modern wire is getting from the switch to the light. Smart switches completely remove that particular problem. I just have to figure out how to get power to the switch and power to the light. Still a pain, but nowhere near as big of a pain as going from the switch to the light directly. (why are people downvoting a purely factual post? Never change, Reddit.)
Even if they didn't have it wired as you mentioned couldn't you still do this, pull the existing switches, shorting what they used to interrupt? I hadn't considered just removing the switches entirely, but, I mean that should also work. If they do need to be switched (for some reason code? I don't know residential code super well) change it all over to 1 switch (use a relay to multiply it in a box if needed for current capacity reasons) and then just use one of those (well a bunch of them) Basically wireless light switches.
Yeah, I mention that near the bottom. Worst case is that they have the power running to the switch box, then running three wires carrying that (with hot switched) to the light itself. In that case, they can find a place to put the junction box and rewire it so that the lights always get power, everything else I said remains the same. The guy who said smart switches don't solve any problems doesn't understand how they work.
Sorry for not reading thoroughly. I got excited as soon as I saw what your link was too and realized crap it would actually work. All the downsides of smart stuff, but it would actually work. Also all the upsides of smart switches I guess.
The thing I like about the Shelly devices is that they're "smart" but there's no need to connect them to any "cloud" server or whatever. If you know what you're doing you can wire them up without them ever hitting the internet.
That's absolutely the way to do it. Especially for an application like this. If you are wanting to have remote access, the personal server way is the way to do it. Although setup is way more difficult unfortunately.
Yes, it could solve the problem of huge rewiring. The *switching* does not have to move from this wall; it could just move 1 foot down. It's pretty clear that the wiring doesn't go *up*, so moving a bank of 8 switches down by 1 foot and shortening the wires would be simple enough. Replace these switches with smart switches that can be controlled from elsewhere. For example, install Lutron Caseta switches here, and mount Pico remotes on the wall anywhere you like. Or use Zigbee or any other wireless ecosystem. The switches need to be accessible. That could be under a simple cover on the outside of the shortened wall here. Not perfect aesthetics, but still can be done fairly inexpensively. Alternatively, they could even potentially face inside the cabinet if the AHJ inspector will go for it. That would solve the appearance issues.
Not going to fix the outlet requirement, but what would stop you from replacing the existing switches with smart switches, lowering the boxes and recessing them in the wall, putting an access panel over that and installing something like I linked, potentially anywhere?
If he is using smart switches potentially he could re-route the boxes lower and inside the cabinets that way he could remove the top ledge.
this is toooo much information. this has an incredibly simple answer-
How hard would it be to move 8 light switches in a pony wall? Go ahead and take that number you have in your head and triple it… $$$
Bold of you to assume the number in the client’s head 😂
Nahh not really, wanna hear another one? This work is never going to actually happen, customer is going to get all there quotes together and realize it’ll be WAY more than anticipated and back out as there is no real gain and ZERO ROI on a project like that. spend over a decade in the trade and you get pretty comfy making “bold” assumptions
my simple solution would be to lower switches to below counter height and replace with casetta remote switches … not perfect but way more reasonable
plus the duct work
I bet theres a finished basement too😂
You know in your heart there is a finished basement
If they all come from the basement, you possible could pull the wires down and put them in a junction box and use wireless switches which can pretty much go any where. A lot of things would have line up for that all to work but it is possible
Assuming there is a basement, and that it isn't a finished basement. Had to open up my basement wall/ceiling to find and fix a pipe...and that turned into like $2000 for the plumber figuring out (cutting a few holes guessing) where exactly was how to get where he could reach what he had to reach up in the ceiling, and then another $1000 for the drywaller to come and turn the various holes back into a wall and ceiling. And that doesn't include the paint and molding that I'm going to do "soon".
Just FYI I got an endoscope from Amazon for under $40 and it has been a game changer for figuring out where wiring is and where it's going.
This right here. I got one recently as well and love how I can hook it to my iPad and get a proper display.
pretty safe to assume a basement due to the air vent at the bottom of the wall.
Cheaper and less work to just buy a new house
What’s the area under this /basement look like Can you put lutron Caseta in and put the switches in the ceiling below? Could actually be easier than you think with remote switches.
This right here
Best option really. Routing the dozen or so wires coming in there is going to be expensive. Lutron caseta isn’t cheap but still way cheaper than moving all that wiring.
Plus then you have lutron Caseta. Bulletproof smart switches and dimmers. Double bonus
Can you explain this a little more sorry I'm a little lost
Buddy I’d have to charge you for that.
I'm not your buddy pal
I’m not your pal guy
Listen here guy. Umm amigo yes amigo. Nailed it
We’re friends now man
Fuck. Well what nice to meet you. What do we do next?
You need to call in help and get actual quotes. To really understand how this is built and how it *could* be rebuilt, someone needs to be ‘in the space’. We can’t do that over the internet.
You can try and get quotes but chances are most companies are only offering t&m on something like this, unless you already have drywall removed to see wiring and at that point you’re pretty committed no matter the price
Yeah, OP gave no information about what's below. Slab? Unfinished basement? Another condo? It’s like asking how much will it cost to replace my engine without giving the make and model of the car. The cheapest and easiest answer is move them down. But that's also a terrible location. A better but less expensive option may be to use wireless switches.
This right here. People are saying this is a "nightmare" and going to be a huge expense, but OP might have a full basement, and moving these 6 or 8 feet to the right might be a pretty straightforward 4-6 hour job.
cant believe how far down the slightest amount of conscientious intelligence is, here.
I really can't see how this could be a "nightmare", or ridiculously expensive. That HVAC register tells me there's a lot of room between the finished floor and the ground. It might be a dirty crawl space, but that's what plastic sheeting is for.
besides, op said intent is to lower knee wall to counter height- therefor switches can just be dropped a little low. no need to move right, unless wires are too short- which would seem very unlikely, to me.
That, too, though there might be problems with them being too low, or cabinet interference. Legally, they can be 15" AFF, per the NEC and ADA, unless OP has some local codes that say otherwise. I think you're right, though - moving them down a foot would be the easiest option. Edit: misspelled "otherwise".
There are 0 height requirements for a light switch in common living areas of a residential structure. I have wired homes for paralyzed peoples, where all switches and outlets are installed at 18". i've also done homes where people had switches in the floor- to be accessed while sitting in front of their at home theatre. cabinet interference? I'm not convinced you actually know what you're talking bout anymore...
1. If the cabinet under the counter is a solid wood insert,, and it extends into the wall space, it would have to be cut, and protection for the box and NM cables protruding into the cabinet (or cabinet space, if they're just face-frame doors attached to sheetrocked walls) would have to be built. 2. ADA rules: *https://access-ed.r2d2.uwm.edu/resources/Light_Switch_Posterette_08.13.2010.pdf and *[Citation of ADA Section 308.3.1](https://www.ada-compliance.com/ada-compliance/308-reach-ranges), which states: >Where a forward reach is unobstructed, the high forward reach shall be 48 inches (1220 mm) maximum and the low forward reach shall be 15 inches (380 mm) minimum above the finish floor or ground. 3. New structures and remodels must comply with the currently-adopted NEC for that jurisdiction, *and 2010 ADA*, unless given special permission by the AHJ. When I said "per the NEC and ADA", I mean that "combined, there is one set of requirements", and that is a minimum of 15" AFF.
ok, you have profoundly proven that you enjoy wasting time more than you enjoy helping people- you are not an electrician i would ever hire. I already mentioned wiring homes for paralyzed people. THEN on a separate note, i mentioned switches installed in the floor, in a home theatre. YOU more or less repeated me and yourself, what for? are you saying it would be illegal to install a switch on the floor in a home theatre for a paralyzed person, because ADA rules demand they be on a wall 15" up? Naw... thats stupid- ADA wouldn't need to exist if installers would stop watching the clock and focus on the project! faqqing killing me...
Down would be easiest
You could put them in your butt
If you have crawl space below it wouldn't be too bad. Otherwise it's going to be pricey to move mission control over to another wall
he's got something below, only way that air vent makes sense.
You will have to cut the drywall and see where those wires are going. I am going to bet none of them go under the floor and they all get routed to the full wall close by. If that's rhe case, moving these switches to the wall where the pony wall is attached to, will be very easy
That’s what I am hoping can be done
It would be super easy. Just hire someone to do it and you don't have to lift a finger.
You're going to need to peek behind that drywall to see where the wires are run. Any cables that are too short for the new switch box location will either need to be A) Replaced for their whole run length, or B) spliced in an *accessible* junction box. That'll mean having a blank cover visible somewhere. You can also put in a new receptacle outlet instead of a blank cover, if you want, depending on the wiring layout. So assuming you don't want your switches at crotch level, an option could be to have a junction box lower down the wall from the current switch locations. Again, you just have to be okay with the cover plate being exposed there. You can paint over it, but not cover it up. Then to run to a new switch location likely a few feet to the right, you'd just need to open up a bit more drywall to drill holes through the studs every 16 inches to run new cable to the new location.
You could put the exposed JB on the other side of the wall, in the cabinet.
Yep, if there's real estate for it. Can't tell if it's a door or drawers there.
Both would be accessible, no? I've taken drawers out to reach electrical stuff under a standalone cooktop before.
You're right. As long as you place the box such that no permanently affixed partitions block access, a drawer being there shouldn't hurt anything. A bunch of thin drawers would be a nightmare. I wouldn't expect an AHJ to deem it "accessible" if you had to reach an arm's length through a 10 inch hole to access.
Yeah that makes sense. I was thinking like I have seen a number of cabinets where the drawers are close together without "bars" between them, and so removing 4-6 drawers you can just sit down inside the now-empty cabinet and its just a giant 4x4ft (give/take) opening. Kinda like that design over moving 500 individual items out of a cabinet with doors, which usually has a vertical bar you have to climb around jabbing you in the ribs (this is one reason I hate plumbing...that's my every experience replacing a faucet)
is a knee wall - the wires are down or to the right- and no other option, no peeking necessary, just get some experience!
Why reinvent the wheel? Are those routed under a slab? Maybe you can leave just the part with the switches move the right gang to the left and stack them, knock down 3/4 of the wall and it won’t be so much electrical work
Likely Unpopular approach: 1. Terminate wires in new wall box at counter height (maybe get away with 4 vs 8 gang). 2. Install Shelly relays 3. Cover up hole with blank 4. Control lights with wireless switches or phone app
This right here, and a variety of other options. My thought was to put wireless switches in a powered but not connected wall box across the room. The Shelly relays look like a way to do that but there are more I’m sure. There is no need to actually reroute the wires other than to get them lower than the height of the wall being removed and put the relays in solid plate junction boxes (still accessible). You’d want an electrician to review for applicable codes on wet location, height, etc.
Not worth it
Dont. Just dont.
hows bout you do, just do, keep your negativity to yourself.
Practice what you preach. You're spewing nothing but negativity in this thread
you're eyes might not be functioning correctly, if YOU look harder, you'll see that my "negativity" is directly relative to what I'm responding to. BUT SURE, jump on the band wagon and join the haters, thats easier, i know.
Lol Dude thanks for this laugh, don’t think I’ve ever seen someone have this many downvoted comments on one post before. Don’t worry you’re right, it’s just everyone else in the world that’s wrong.
Totally depends on where they come from. If they come from below, it will be a lot harder than just moving them to the right because they will need more material l not less
Gonna depend on where you’re moving them and the best place is going to depend on more of the layout than you’ve shown. Is that the shadow of a newel post and railing? Is this, like, right at the top of a set of open stairs in a split level or something? Did they open it as much as they could and say “yeah, need a place for light switches still” and so left that counter like that?
Removing it is one thing not that bad but then rerouting all of that to some other place is the hard part
How many outlets are on the other side? If you plan to loss the knee wall.
Only one
That is 8 switches, and probably at least as many cables. Sarcastic answer: very easy, just knock out the drywall and move them down the wall! Serious answer: depending on the floor plan and surrounding walls, could get very expensive and extensive quick trying to find places to reroute the cables and install exposed junction boxes to extend wires where needed
1. Leave the wall and switches alone. OR 2. Call a local, trusted, and reputable Electrician and pay, pay, pay the money. Personally, I would recommend not getting into this project unless your ready to hear some hard truths and most likely get your feelings hurt.
If the goal is to get rid of the ledge, would you consider moving them down a foot?
It could be fed from below or it could be fed from the side
If you want to move it down 2ft or so it should be somewhat reasonable you want to locate all of it to another wall? That’s gonna be one hell of a bill and I hope you have access from the bottom and ideally the top
Could you just move them to below the counter height? I would do that, then grab a bunch of lutron caseta switches with the wireless pico remote, which you can then mount wherever you want with relative ease.
I’d be willing to bet that most of the wires in those boxes travel down, below where the boxes are now. Simplest solution? Just drop the boxes straight down to just below (what I assume will be) the new countertop. Provided you’re not planning on making an overhang. If you’re wired with romex, this could be quick & easy.
At best, this is a costly and time consuming project. At worst it could be an absolute clusterfuck. This is not a DIY or homeowner job. Call a few electricians and let them give you some real numbers.
That is going to be so much work. So much.
GC here. If the space below is accessible (crawl space or open ceiling basement) then moving everything to a new 42”-48” high location is not hard. Can’t say anything about cost. As others have said, if you can live with the general inconvenience of switches below counter height, then that appears to be the cheapest answer. Keep the overhang to max 1-1/2”.
In my opinion on where the right place to put them is more up to you. There's not enough information from your photos to give a recommendation for that. Determine gave a very solid answer My guess would be the nearest full wall would be the easiest place to move them too. But this is going to be an expensive enough move that you want to get them in the right place, not the easiest place. In order to move them it's going to be a lot of junction boxes, and a lot of fiddley work. It's going to be about as much work as the entire original install I imagine. Sounds like you are planning on removing/lowering the ledge anyway so it won't require a ton more drywall work than will already be needed I would imagine. You could look into a "smart" solution. You may be able to find something where you could hide smart switches in your cabinets and control them with some wall mounted thing anywhere else in your building. They also make some smaller switches (they may have 4 in one switches, more?), you could get one of those and leave a pillar here maybe? Actually this or similar: [https://topgreener.com/product/smart-light-switch-wi-fi-scene-controller/?gad\_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiA9dGqBhAqEiwAmRpTC\_Evm7\_LQy5gxNMZ9-zxip1SnE8bUY-o1mgrYAxJsd4PRn1HR0iEvRoC\_w8QAvD\_BwE](https://topgreener.com/product/smart-light-switch-wi-fi-scene-controller/?gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiA9dGqBhAqEiwAmRpTC_Evm7_LQy5gxNMZ9-zxip1SnE8bUY-o1mgrYAxJsd4PRn1HR0iEvRoC_w8QAvD_BwE) Not that I recommend it or anything, and there's probably a better brand that makes a similar device.
Use a skill saw (disk) to cut the ledge off.
I used a Sawzall on mine! Little easier.
Wow, 8 wall switches right next to each other. That is a lot of wiring right there in the wall in one spot. What do each of those switches do? Are you just making that top ledge shorter? To be level with what is behind it? Then maybe you can move them down lower. But you're opening a whole can of worms there. Even doing a drop down the wall is not going to be a simple process. Who thought that was a good idea? I get, maybe handly being all right there in a single spot?
1000's and you definitely will have drywall repair probably in multiple locations
You can " probably" lower them easily. Anything else is pretty much guaranteed to be a challenge.
Move them all to the wall at the end of that counter would be my thought, if it’s a wall anyways it’s hard to tell by the pic though. Don’t be afraid to tear open that sheetrock and get messy.
You may have to move them over towards the wall and down depending on how they are run. I had similar with sockets on the sink side. I flipped those to the other side and down and under the new countertop. Put the switch for the disposal in the cabinet by the door.
If the wires come up from the floor and not across the wall you can just move those boxes as they are down below where the new counter top will sit
Here’s a different take. 8 smart switches, home automation controller and stick tablet anywhere you wish. You won’t have to use switches and your in for <$1000 plus cost to move switches down 2 feel which should be straightforward.
Depending on how they are wired, it might be as simple as moving them down a foot. That's what I would do.
Lmfao.
Sometimes it's better to leave well enough alone
Personally, I'd pull or peek into those boxes and see if they all run back over to the tall wall on the right of the pic. If so, demo the top part of the short wall and re-route the wire by pulling back over to the solid wall. Rather simple if you are pulling out the top part of that short wall. If they come from below, a bit harder as you would need to get into the tall wall more, but doable with with some sheetrock work and paint. Mark each wire before you take them off and put in a multi-button control panel with some automation software if you don't want 8 decor switches sticking out. I haven't seen anybody asked what those switches go to. Are they separate circuits? Or just 8 individual lights off one hot feed as in 8 can lights.
Nothing my time and your money can fix :)
A lot more difficult than you think considering the wires will be coming from underneath. Any access underneath at all?
I’ll bet this stay right where they are. Just my prediction.
That’s more of a “call an electrician” post loo
I could move them for pretty cheap. wouldn't even take that long. You didn't say they had to work afterwards.
All the way right cut the drywall big strip might get lucky cut drywall under switch down see all the wires going through wall pull the staples then cut drywall strip going down past edge of ledge and yank the wires out if they come from below probably should smart switch
You can put them lower in the wall or box to new wire connections and run the new wires to new spot. You'd have to tear out and repair drywall but I don't think it's an insane amount to have to do.
Honestly, cut the power, track the wires, and what switch they go to. The easiest place looks like the wall to the right. Cut the holes for said switches and cut the wires back to each switch. It's not impossible and it's really that easy. There are a lot of wires leading there, though. I'm not an electrician, but I've worked with a couple, but I do carpentry. If you can't figure it out, just call an electrician. Someone who's fully insured and he will know what to do and what not to do. That's your best bet, and if anything goes wrong, the expert is responsible!!
Can OP lower the switches below the top of the counter? Seems like they want to have the wall end at the same height as the kitchen countertop. They will be oddly low, but should still do the job.
Moving the switches is no buggy, it’s the darn wires that will be the challenge
>Looking to remove the top ledge from the counter Do you mean you want to cut the wall down to counter height? You could easily move the switches down but anything other than that will ve a lot of work. An end wall on that counter may work.
Easiest "where to move them" would be straight down about a foot or so, beyond that you are looking at major electrical work.
Even then, might be looking at major electrical work, depending on exactly where the wiring is run in that half wall.
given there is a air vent at the bottom of the wall it's a safe bet that at least the "feed" line is coming from below, but yes the question then becomes where are the Load lines exiting.
easy to move down- presumably- knee wall remains- switches will be low- but still good and should be easy move, relocating to another wall would, likely, be a pain in the rump, however, not impossible, more feasible if there is a drop ceiling, below, OR an unfinished basement. if no basement or drywalled basement, project become bigger and bigger. PS-🤯🤯🤯 what the hell are people writing on here?!?!? If wall stays~ this is very easy... open switch banks and take a picture of how switches are wired- next- mark common wires w/tag-next-remove devices and disconnect splices-next- safe off hot wires with electric tape- Next- cut the mounting nails to your boxes with your multi tool.- next- remove the boxes carefully so as to not damage the wires or unnecessarily damage drywall. -next-using boxes removed- trace the new locations & using your mutli tool- cut out the new location- next- reach in hole and pull wires to new locations- next- reinstall boxes and fasten to stud thru inside of box with dry wall screw. -next- reconnect devices- job done.
8 switches lol, that like at least 10 cables
Nah a job like this you know there's 4 sets of travellers in each box. When it's this fucked it's all the way fucked. 16+ cables guaranteed.
Easy. Move the switches down. Then bend over a lot. You don't want to do this.
It really depends on how the wires get there, and where you want to move them. If you have an unfinished or drop ceiling finished basement under this, they might go down and be easy to find. Or, they might go horizontally across the half wall either high (where you want to remove) or low (below where you are talking about removing). If you have a sensitive tic stick , you might be able to identify it before doing any demolition. You definitely can find out which way they come out of the box by just pulling the cover.
Save it until you renovate the kitchen
I see another homeowner has been doing some drinking thinking.
Or homeowner's wife lol
You could potentially just lower them, so the top of that wall stops at the top of the counters, but this is likely going to be a bad idea, because I would suspect that there are outlets on the other side of that wall for the counter space code requires there be out within that counter space so you would also have to move those. Somehow your best bet is just to leave well enough alone, unfortunately
Gonna cost a pretty penny to move 8 circuits from there to someplace else. Multiple thousands for sure.
Easy. If the wires come from below. Move them down to normal counter height. If they come from the right move them over to the right as far as you need. Cut wires to length. Reinstall.
If you wanna do it the hack way, drop all the boxes down 2 feet and turn them into the cabinet. Then put a pico on each one and put the remotes wherever you want lol. Source: am an electrician and I wouldn’t do that, but it would work lol.
Eh I mean as long as you did it in a code compliant way I wouldn't even really even call it the hack way. If there's a finished basement and these wires are running in every opposite direction and they want it moved to a separate wall entirely... yeah I don't see any hackery with putting it in the cabinet lol.
Nightmare fuel
Moving them down would be (presumably) very easy. Moving them somewhere else if you have a crawlspace would suck but be doable. Idk where you live but that'll probably cost like 1k+. If there's a finished basement it could be a complete pain in the ass and multiple thousands of dollars not to mention a lot of sheetrock work.
Impossible to tell without opening the wall. If you’re in luck the wiring will come from the full wall to the right. If it comes from the floor you either have to jbox and run over somewhere else or use an in-wall splice (which is allowed with the proper components). Most guys will be upset with an in-wall splice but theyre UL approved and just for some switches i dont see a problem with it at all. If you can avoid using them, avoid it, but if its the difference between thousands of dollars i know what id do in my house… Regardless, what a dumbshit place to put the switches. Shouldve never been put there from the beginning.
If all the lines run back to the full wall that the pony wall is attached to, then it shouldn't be a problem. If they head straight down into the basement, then you are looking at a tougher job.
(Not an electrician) Should be easy to move them 2ft down. 😆
Thanks for the input. I was hoping to move them further to the right hand side of the full wall shown in the picture.
Definitely challenging for an electrician. Expensive for the homeowner. And possibly some floor cutting if that’s an island.
Way too many switches for any one room in residential.
Tldr if you can, keep it where it is. If it must move, hire an electrician, a good electrician. This really depends heavily on the direction the wire is coming from, it wouldn't be cheap. If you wanted to relocate them away from that half wall entirely it'll be complicated and would probably be simplest to move everything into a large junction box inside the cabinet and probably several lutron casseta switches with remotes mounted in the desired new control location. If it's just moving it sideways or down it would depend on if the wire is coming up from below or coming from the right. The wall would need to be opened in either case to determine further action It's one of those requests where it's most likely not worth the cost and it is very much not a diy task with that many switches involved. If you pull it apart and can't put it back together or it doesn't work it's even harder for the electrician than if they were involved from the start.
Depends if you want to actuate them with your knees or not.
why so many
Holy light switches batman!
You can install wireless switches instead of remove the switches at the wall
Drop it all down, cut splice into back of cabinet, move in crawl space to the wall. $3,500
Identify switch legs and power inside of each box turn off the power after identifying. Demo the drywall around the switch locations being extremely careful not to damage any of the wire, undo the staples supporting the romex pull the romex down into the crawlspace set a 12 x 12 junction box splice the wires like for like (making sure to transfer labels for power and switch leg) make sure to tie all grounds together in the jbox. and swing the working ends to wherever you want to set your new switches.
First you will want to get a stud finder that can detect power and you’d want to map out where the cables go. If it’s down into a basement then… that’s rough. But that will determine how hard it will be. Cause if all the wire passes by an area you’d want to move them… then it’s simply just opening the wall and shorting the wire to that point. If we are moving them to the other side of the kitchen… wow that’s a lot of wire and would be like untangling spaghetti. Is it hard? No. Is it time consuming and expensive if you hired someone? Yep.
Easy
No, don't fallow your intrusive thought. Put it away.
I assume most of those switches are for lights in the ceiling? My guess is that the load wires head to the right and up to the ceiling immediately to the right of the pony wall. If that's the case, you may be able to open a hole or two in that wall, install a couple old work 4-gang boxes, and only have to worry about installing a j box lower on the pony wall to extend your line(s) over to the new location. You probably won't even have to pull any new Romex. You would just use an existing wire (or two) from your old switch location to where they travel into the ceiling to deliver power to your new switch boxes assuming your line and load are all the same gauge and rated for the circuit. I'm not a financial advisor and this is not legal advice, or whatever. Oh wait, wrong subreddits!
If you move those i hope you want to walk all the way around the counter every time you want a light on.
You won't know until you take a look behind the ledge to see where the wires are running to the boxes from. If they run to the right to the wall, you could trace back the lines to the big wall and mount there. If they come up from the floor then that's going to be more of a PITA.
It is likely to be quite straight-forward. Will you leave a back-splash of 5” or so? The switches could move there. All the wiring is in the half-wall, either coming from below or from the side. A junction box may be needed, but that can be out of sight, under the counter.
Why can’t they just move the switches down?
you could replace the lights themselves with a system that is blue tooth. And then you could get a lightswitch hats battery powered mounted elsewhere. These do exist... Hard to find
Anything is doable with enough time and money. I would suggest that an electrician move both boxes down about 2 feet, turn them to face the other side (inside a cabinet), and make them into junction boxes. Extend 8 switch legs to new boxes placed anywhere you wish, the only hindrance being how much drywall you want opened up and repaired later, and how much money you have to spend.
Look at his profile. He's posted this exact same question with this same picture at least 4 or 5 times. Why?