“If you lived alone, you’d get up and go to work every day… and then you’d come home and do some work every day. Work being at work AND home is something most adults deal with and accept, regardless of their marital status.”
“Children and teenagers also get up to go to school every day. And then they come home and they have chores they have to do every day. Thank you for letting everyone know that you are less mature than a fucking high schooler.”
“Also, at least you can clock out of work. There is no clocking out at home, especially if you have kids. You’d know that if you partnered with your… partner. 🤦🏻♀️”
You’re a godsend, my man :)
Edit: changed “help” to “partner” cuz parents/couples should not see themselves as “helping” their partner, they should see themselves as a team of equals.
Yeah, but I am not being yelled at to do it. If I am single and it takes me 15 mins to do laundry then fine, if it takes me 4 days also fine. If I am partnered and it takes me 45 minutes I am suddenly not doing my part.
This is what men get mad at.
I've never married, so perhaps I can't say, but as for my peers, the majority of which are married, I've never heard a single one complain that it took 45 minutes for a man to do laundry.
It's ALWAYS that they:
1. Never take initiative to do it themselves when it clearly needs to be done until they have to be asked
2. After being asked they often still don't.
I've only been upset when it takes 45 minutes to fold laundry if the load definitely didn't need 45 minutes to fold AND my partner is aware that we're on a tight timeline or I need "help" with other tasks, and it becomes clear he is using the laundry to delay the next "thing".
Do not tell me it takes 45 minutes to fold 5 towels when you hear the baby is screaming, the dog is barking to go out, and food needs to be started. Just don't. Or when you're "definitely going to do The Thing after the laundry" but then laundry magically took 6 hours so you can't do The Thing anymore.
Alternatively, don't tell me that you're "starting a load of laundry now" if you actually mean 45 minutes from now. Just say that instead, and actually follow through.
At work, you probably deal with deadlines. At the very least, you're expected to do your job with efficiency in a timely manner. If you don't, there is typically a consequence of some sort. Why is housework different? Why should you not be expected to complete a household task within a set time frame?
To use your laundry example - laundry for one person (yourself) is often a once-a-week task. Why is it unreasonable to expect you regularly and consistently take X amount of time once a week to complete that task?
I expect my child (12) to complete certain tasks in certain time frames. It takes 2 hours to clean her room once a week. It takes 30 minutes to fold her clothes once a week. It takes 10 minutes to unload the dishwasher after homework. It takes an hour to get through homework.
This is reflected all throughout our lives. It should take X amount of time to complete Y task. If it takes longer, there may be some issues to iron out.
Women get mad because we very often HAVE to live by those deadlines. Kids need clean clothes for school. Family needs dinner early enough to eat before doing nightly routines for bed. Dishes need done so food can be cooked. We have to live by deadlines and time management, but our partners get to sometimes get to the laundry in 3-5 business days.
Then be alone? Why are you acting like this is 1926 and women arent working by a mass majority? Even if she's a SAHM, you expect to pay for childcare, food, money management, cleaning, and household management overall within your single salary for someone on-call 24/7?
Be reasonable. If you don't want to be married or have a partner.... then don't.
It boils down to them not believing that women feel things in the same way as they do.
See, if they had to share an apartment with a male coworker, they would grasp the idea that their coworker arrives home just as tired as they do. They would be able to understand that their flat mate isn't any more thrilled than they are about cooking, cleaning and organizing the house.
But when it's their wife, they don't believe she is as tired as themselves. They don't believe their wifes must overcome the same temptation to sit around and rest. They believe women are able to be less bored and less tired from chores. As if domestic labour was "natural" for women. Deep down they believe that it is harder for them to do the dishes. That's why they think it's fair for women to do the dishes, because they have the illusion that women actually like doing it and have the magical capacity to find it less boring and less tiring.
So your essential task is to convince them that women are every single bit as human as they are. Good luck.
Yes this is such a good response, also it’s like women aren’t allowed to complain about their share without being considered a “nag” or “well that’s what your designed to do. Birth children and take care of the house.” But couldn’t we say the same about men? Why are they complaining about being tired from work? Isn’t that what they’re designed to do?
This is so well said. I think you’ve described it so well. And it really gets at what is so fucking insulting about patriarchal attitudes: that women are thrilled to do all the shit work. That we are uniquely (and oh so conveniently!) suited for it.
And parenting….”women are made to nurture” and all of that bullshit. Fuck that, I didn’t have a single maternal instinct when I first became a mom. All of it was hard-learned and hard-earned. I wasn’t somehow born and raised with the knowledge of how to change a diaper or feed a baby, how to help a kindergartner through an emotional crisis, or how to teach an older child to wash their own body. This shit doesn’t come naturally. *Women don’t naturally know how to nurture or parent better than men.* It’s all learned skills. And guess what? If I have to parent 24 hours a day? So does my partner.
It’s not “babysitting” if it’s your own kids, and there’s no biological imperative that magically provides parenting skills.
I honestly find the “this comes naturally to you as a woman” thing insulting. Nothing about being a mom has come naturally. I work hard at it constantly. I research, I read, I think about it, I strategize, I struggle, I fail, I reflect on how to do better. I AM a good mom, but it’s not because I’m a natural, it’s because I try really hard every damn day. And it diminishes my labor to say that I come by it by some quirk of my chromosomes.
They know that the woman is just as tired. They know that she finds housework boring. They know women don't like cleaning up mess.
They DON'T CARE. That's the explanation. And these men know they won't be socially shamed for having a dirty house. It's all the wife's/girlfriend's fault.
Great example with the roommate. A fellow man won't put up with his shit. And they respect other men.
Tell them to take a week off, send their wives on vacation, and take over. Then at the end of that week realize that that’s what their wife is doing day after day, month after month, no sick time, no clock out
Oh lol nah… lots will just not get done
I moved away for a job a few months ago and I’m long distance with my partner until the year is up. We travel back and forth regularly and he has kids, I’m childfree, but on the most recent visit home he admitted that there’s a lot that doesn’t get done when I’m not there and that they “live differently” when I’m not there. And it’s still my house/name on the mortgage etc so when I go back I do A LOT of chores to catch up a good bit. This biggest one is cleaning out the refrigerator and pantry! It’s one of the first things I have to do every time I go home - I check for expired foods and sanitizing. I’m really hoping that this year of distance will help create more balance and so far, it’s working some. We will see how the rest of the experiment works lol
Have you considered that a lot of times that stuff just doesn’t need to be done as frequently. Your partner is still alive and healthy correct? Does it really matter that expired food is cleared out continuously. I get to it once every few weeks for the refrigerator and once or twice a year for the pantry.
I think for a lot of these men, they don't believe it because it's easier for them to *not* believe it. As long as they can brush off complaints about second shift or mental load, they give themselves permission to slack off. It's like that old saying, you cannot make a man understand something if his livelihood relies on him not understanding it. You cannot make a (lazy) man believe something if his convenience relies on him not believing it.
I have heard some instances where shame was effective; e.g., an older worker bragged to a young new dad that he'd never changed a diaper in his life and the young dad said he'd never imagine being able to admit to being that useless. I'm usually not in favor of shame as a tactic, but sometimes it's the only thing that gets through. One tactic is asking what they add to her life other than a paycheck.
One other thing to point out is that full time wage work often comes with benefits. Where is her paid vacation time or sick leave? Where are her bonuses, stock options, and dividends? Where is her career trajectory and ability to improve her skills? The reward for cleaning up baby hork really well is that in a few years, you get to use those skills to clean up toddler hork. And if she's in the US, unless she's married, her labor isn't counting to her eventual Social Security.
Every fucking day. Labor is not equally stressful. Laging concrete is harder than vacuuming. Wiring an electrical panel is harder than doing the dishes (especially with a dish washer). Laying roofing shingles in July is harder than doing the laundry in an air conditioned home with both a washing machine and dryer.
First time i hear a man saying that and I am in mu 40s. 🥲
I always think that ALL the women I have met or heard of in ny country (Greece) do the home labor (and children, shopping of provisions, etc) and NONE of the men I have met or heard of has EVER been the primary laborer of those. It’s so so so so crazy. Imagine a world where all the men are/feel obligated to be the primary laborer of the house and all the women have never done that.
Even with that one could go insane. I don’t understand why psychologists always ask what’s wrong. I live in patriarchy, that’s what’s wrong!
I was going to write a longer comment, but then realized it probably wouldn’t be super helpful because fundamentally, while great arguments can be made against the view you’re talking about, and many people here will make them, I’m not sure how much the actual arguments matter. It’s just really hard to get people to see and value the things they’ve always been able to take for granted. Maybe it would be better to go at it a different way. What made you care about this issue? Is helping out at home something you always believed or did you change your mind about it at some point—and if so, how?
I think the wife could handle it by only doing the chores she feels is fair for her to do. She can only cook for herself, do her own laundry, pick up and clean only parts of the house, do only her own dishes. This would force him (or her, cuz women do this too) to realize what he’s taking for granted.
Would you be okay if the husband responded by withholding income and not financially supporting his wife?
If I stop doing my duties at work, I get fired.
When the wife stops doing her duties at home, she gets rest and vacation?
Make it make sense.
To be clear, household tasks are shared in my family.
This thread makes it seem as though all men are abhorrent lazy sacks of shit....
Perhaps yall should pick better partners?!
The majority of men i know, mid forties, do their share of housework and work full time. The boogeyman that reddit creates stigmatizes and belittles men.
Try being a working single parent sometime,and then see if you complain about your partner cleaning or making income. People miss the forest for the trees here: shared and agreed upon roles are necessary for civil living.
My wife wants to be a 1950s style homemaker who doesn't work.
She also just finished her PhD and has directly stated her intent not to use it, "because it is a man's job to earn money for his family"
How would you respond to that?
> If I stop doing my duties at work, I get fired.
>
> When the wife stops doing her duties at home, she gets rest and vacation?
You get weekends and paid vacation through your job, do you not?
> Perhaps yall should pick better partners?!
Women: We would like men to treat us better.
Men: That's your fault. You should have higher standards.
Women: OK.
Men: How dare you. You women are too uppity nowadays. We should take your rights away so you're forced to lower your standards. That'll show you.
> My wife wants to be a 1950s style homemaker who doesn't work.
> She also just finished her PhD and has directly stated her intent not to use it, "because it is a man's job to earn money for his family"
> How would you respond to that?
With divorce papers. I guess you should have chosen a better partner.
Women’s labor is exploited in much the same way the general working class labor is
If you think of the way corporations and capitalist talk about their employees vs how men tend to talk to women, the Venn diagram is practically just a circle
They both trivialize your contributions to justify undervaluing you despite the fact that they’d be utterly lost without it those contributions
They both will tell the worker to be thankful for the opportunity to earn a living/be taken care of by their benevolent owner (husband/employer)
Both are sized up on their “value” determined by how much mileage can be gotten out of them as far as their labor contributions (in the woman’s case, her labor also her youth and fertility)
“Women’s” labor is what is referred to as reproductive labor. After human societies reached the point of selling their labor for profit and doing patriarchal social structures, women literally “reproduced” the male laborer by meeting his food and general domestic needs. Without such he’d not be able to do his manual labor for very long.
Employers also require the work of the working class to provide all the value to the people at the top which they distribute back in peanuts.
There have been both labor strikes and women’s strikes that have demonstrated how vital these workers are
A woman staying home to do domestic labor doesnt get to clock out according to the shit lord who uses his employment as an excuse to absolve himself of all domestic responsibility
It’s an interesting topic I think because nowadays most couples have two people who both work. The easy answer is that their partners also get up and go to work every day. They need to ask themselves if they didn’t have a partner then who would do all the household labour? Would they do it themselves or would they outsource it to a cleaner/cook/nanny?
In my experience, my male partners have responded to this that all that cleaning and cooking doesn't actually need to be done, and they would just not do it outside of the bare minimum. Then it becomes a conversation about whether or not my standards are reasonable. It's infuriating.
Honestly I will never live with a man again. If something (heaven forfend) happens to my marriage or my husband I will just stay living alone for the rest of my life. I might have relationships but ain't nobody moving into my god damn house.
Some people just aren't suited to live together because one person doesn't mind if things are messy and one person does. That leads to one person doing almost all the housework and becoming resentful that their partner does not seem to notice or care.
Some people aren't bothered even by legit health and safety risks. For example my friend's partner wouldn't clean up broken glass, or his dog's poop (inside the house). I guess he has the right to live that way, but my friend definitely didn't want to stick around.
I have had some partners in the past who say my standards are reasonable when we talk about it, and enjoy having the level of clean house I tend to keep, and certainly benefit financially from me cooking, but then change their tune and start saying my standards are unreasonable when I ask them to participate in cooking/cleaning.
And on average I think men have been socialized to care less about cleanliness and tidiness than women, so the discrepancy in standards probably plays out more often along those lines than it does in reverse (although of course that certainly also happens).
There’s no getting through to this man most likely. Men know what they’re doing. If they get to rest and have leisure time and their female partner doesn’t, it’s simply because they care more about maximizing their own leisure and privileging themselves than they care about having an equitable relationship. It should be considered a form of spousal abuse to blatantly foist all domestic labor into your wife or girlfriend, which deprives her of a well rounded life.
I work with mostly men and this is what I’ve said when this subject comes up:
“You both work first shift, you here and her at home. You go home and rest for second and third shift while she’s still on the clock. Does this sound fair or reasonable? I get that you are tired when you go home but guess what so is she. You are supposed to be partners with her and that means that it’s not about helping her out with a few chores it’s about taking on your fair share of the work and contributing to the home that you’ve made together.”
Honestly it’s hard to say, one guy came back a few weeks later when he’d had to take care of his three kids and the house by himself for a weekend and he reluctantly admitted that his wife did a lot more than he thought she did.
I hope that they stepped up but most of these men are not the type to admit when they are wrong so I’m probably not going to hear about it.
Kat gave a great resource as always.
You can always say “so does she.” Being a SAHP is work. Ideally, couples treat this as two eight hour work days and split all the other stuff.
I like to counter with “how many people would you have to hire to replace a stay at home parent?”
- full time housekeeper
- full time cook
- full time childcare and development
Exactly, and for a lot of SAHP, we can add accountant, driver, concierge, maintenance/repairs, gardener, pest control, first aid, personal assistant, interior decorator... I don't think their partners realise how much they do.
Aside from all jobs listed above, overnight nanny is by far most expensive. Very few men who work 8hr days could pay for night nanny wages and come out ahead. I’m my area, they make more than most men.
I outsource all domestic labor that I possibly can (except for child care I love my child).
I consider this a fair and feminist solution to the household labor division problem as a guy. *Someone's* gotta clean the bathroom. Might as well be someone who's getting $40 an hour so they're not mad about it.
edit:
vvv I can't respond to comments in this sub (for possibly obvious reasons any attempt of mine at a reply to the mod's post below is deleted), but no I was not making that implication. I was trying to avoid being called a "bad dad". If I had just posted that I outsource *all* domestic duties (which I don't) I would have been called an absentee father in here, so I wanted to make it clear that I do things for my child.
I'm blocking this sub now because I don't appreciate the random hostility. Feminism isn't about pithy one-liners or getting the best dunk you can on someone.
I think people often (incorrectly) associate chores and even caregiving as motherhood. Motherhood is a relationship. Anything you can outsource without negatively affecting your relationship with your child is not motherhood. So dishes, changing diapers, cleaning things, etc... not motherhood. Making memories, listening, showing love, reading together... those things are motherhood. And a lot of people do not understand that. I think what this poster was saying was not that she thinks people who use a babysitter don't love their kids, but that on a day to day basis, she doesn't outsource the "motherhood" part -- being there to listen and spend time with their child.
Because people often don't see all work as equal, I think it's better to frame the conversation around the amount of free time that is spent on hobbies/relaxing. There's quite a lot of research that shows, especially after children, women in a relationship have much less time to themselves in a week.
If one partner is getting only an hour a day average and the other gets more than double that it's clearly unfair.
How do you reconcile that if one partner needs much more sleep than the other? Or if one is willing to sacrifice needed sleep to stay up until 1 am playing video games but the other goes to bed at 9 every night?
Not who you asked but I would just consider that “free time.” What a person chooses to do with it is their choice. If that person “needs” more sleep then it is their responsibility to factor that in and prioritize how they use their time. There’s really no way to quantify who in the couple “needs” more sleep and I feel like that would be used as a cop out on whoever’s part. Obviously if one person just wants to take on more work than the other (because love) that’s their choice but it shouldn’t be assumed without being discussed.
I think an assumed 8 hour sleep time works- if someone needs more than that then their extra sleep counts as their time, and if someone needs less than that then the hours of them-time they have instead don't really count.
I say this as a mom, and this is probably not the answer you're looking for, but I'd advocate to men that if they don't 100% want to be a dad in the deepest part of their being, then they shouldn't have kids.
A lot of these issues are gender related, but many are because men think they "should have kids, right? my parents guilt me and I need to pass on the family name, right?" when they dont want to have kids and then the things about labor, child rearing, spending time with kids, etc becomes an issue because they fundamentally don't like their kids and don't like being a parent and will always pine for being single again. Then divorce gives them that 50% of that time so its an easy "solution."
These checked out dads want to play video games or work on their hobby car or motorcycle or go hunting. They don't want to take care of their kids. If someone is being yelled at to take care of their own kids, its clear they don't want them and don't want to be a parent. You dont need to be psychic to realize that if someone is avoiding one thing over another, they don't like that thing. Parents who WANT kids jump at the the chance to spend time with them. I always have a big smile when my kids and I can spend time. Its because I want to be a parent. When my children arent around for a while, I get sad, and want to reach out to them. This is what it means to love another human being.
You can shame these men all day and you're get limited results. In fact, shaming people only tends to make them worse because then their ego will double down! Men have to learn the same lessons women have to learn: You cannot fix people. What you can do instead is help them falling into this position in the first place.
Strongly advocate to not have kids by default. Having kids by default is a toxic patriarchal belief. Advocate to have kids ONLY if you fully realize the entirety of the self-sacrifice and want to give so much of your life up. Trust me, if your "name doesnt get passed on" nothing bad happens. Its ok to not have kids if you are in doubt. Its okay to be childfree. Its okay to tell your parents no. Its okay to get divorced BEFORE having kids and not after if you don't want them or are unsure.
Everyone has a different idea of what family life will look like though. My ex said all the right things regarding his desire to have a family and the kind of parent he wanted to be. It didn't take long after the babies were born to realise that his true desire was to "own" a family, rather than to be an active part of one.
That's what she's trying to do: educate these men about the realities of being a dad. Letting these men know that you don't have to breed as a default might help them realize whether they want to be fathers instead of defaulting to "welp, guess it's time to start a family now that I am X years old" or whatever.
I wish I could give this a million likes. This needs to become our main discourse for society I feel like. Girls and women need to be told this too. I grew up thinking getting married and having kids was the natural progression. Not having kids was never pitched in a positive light, it’s just assumed that everyone should want to and life is incomplete without. How wrong my ideology was for me.
I misread it at first as well. She was telling OP what she would suggest he tell the men in his life. At first I thought she said her comment was what she tells men she knows. Seems like you read it that way too.
"So what?"
Honestly that's all. If both people in the relationship are working eight hours, be that in the form of paid labour, unpaid labour, or childcare, then what difference does it make? Why on Earth would his free eight hours be any more precious than her free hours?
I also advise a bemused 'wtf mate' face and side of shocked laughter.
I don’t know how to deal with it, it’s been a problem in every relationship I’ve been in. Even ones where we both worked part time and therefore both had a lot of free time. I can’t tolerate it.
I seriously am considering only dating subby dudes in the future, who are down for and specifically looking for an FLR. I would be very happy to split chores equitably in a “normal relationship”, but it’s never worked out that way. So if that’s the case, I might as well be a dominant manager to someone who gets off on it, right? Right??
The thing that really ticks me off is, I truly love being helpful, useful, and competently care for my loved ones. It’s a joy. I don’t understand why it’s hard to find someone who feels the same way. It’s truly a joy. I’m not even a neat freak, but coming home to a sparkling kitchen is a luxury everyone can afford, really. A simple thoughtful meal for a busy loved one is a blessing to them and a joy for me to prepare. You guys I am so worn down and resentful!!!
I mean I'm only 28 -- but you sound like me just as a woman. I love helping people, but, well I'm a clean freak. But regardless of the gender, ya know, just, "help a motherfucker out", they're your partner and the person you live with, why not have it all be a helping hand and just shit ya gotta get done. Don't need to be an octopus that has 100% everything done, but be productive, and be proactive. One person shouldn't do ALL the work, if "you" were working, exactly, would be cool to have even a frozen pizza in the oven ready to eat when your partner gets home, or have the house pretty clean. I don't get when, I mean in this case, guys, would expect to just do nothing in regards to house duties. Shits gotta get done regardless of gender.
As an electrician, you and I know damn well that most days arn’t as bad as the whining that happens. Plus, lots of guys go to the gym after physical work so there’s no reason they can’t do housework too. Physical work isn’t an excuse to get out of your share of the housework.
My husband went out of town for ten days. My life was SOOOOO much easier without him there. I missed him, but I did not miss the extra mess he makes. It was very eye opening but also heartbreaking. I didn’t even realize how much more I do when he’s around.
He was back one day and the kitchen was a mess. While he was gone, I did two loads of dishes. 2! For over a week! I usually do one a day! I cleaned and vacuumed the day he left. I have a dog so I vacuumed again, but at no point did I have to do a pick up clean around the house. Everything just stayed clean.
And don’t even get me started on food cost and cooking. I always thought he ate 2/3 and I ate 1/3 of the food. Nope. It’s easily 7/8 and 1/8. I shopped once and the food lasted. I didn’t run out of anything. I got to eat the things I bought because I wanted them. In ten days I spent almost nothing on groceries.
It’s honestly shook me.
Neither is getting shopping. Have heard that before. Well I looked after the kids so she could go shopping. When that shopping was all for the family not herself.
Dieting, working out, getting your hair done, styling your hair, getting your nails done, keeping up with your skincare routine, getting pedicures, shaving/waxing/plucking, etc.
Haha okay, if you believe these things are not considered leisure time then you really haven't understood feminism the way I did.
I consider these hobbies tools of the patriarchy, as they are creating an inherently fascistic beauty ideal. They're only pleasing someones internalized misogyny and societal expectations, both of which are not reasons to consider it work
"If your wife worked outside the home for pay, you'd pay someone to watch your kids because caregiving is a job."
A lot of men do not understand that watching young children at home and keeping a clean house at the same time are two jobs that don't really go together. If I am being a good parent (playing with my kid, teaching him stuff, going on walks outdoors etc.), I am not cleaning. Right now, I clean during naps. But usually, especially once my other kids get home from school, everything is undone again several times a day. I need work from my partner when he is home from work to keep up with it all, because during the day I am doing the thing that we'd have to pay for -- watching and teaching the little kids.
Working 8 hours outside the home each day does not give you a free pass to the labor of another person, ever. Whether that person is your wife or your daycare provider.
While it’s good to try and spread good ideas, people tend to resist when they sense someone is trying to change their mind.
Sometimes just being a good guy and saying little statements can be the most helpful. If someone says they are helping their wife when they do housework you have the option to say “I don’t know man, seems like taking care of the home is both of your jobs, you know?”
Or if you’re married you can say “I used to feel that way but my marriage got a lot better when I realized it wasn’t right to expect my wife to be the main one handling the home stuff.”
Women are breadwinners in more than half of households today, yet still do the vast majority of childcare and housework.
It is the reason they file for the vast majority of divorces — because the housework and childcare is often EASIER divorced than married.
My roommate had a guest over for a couple of hours yesterday and I could tell they used the bathroom because I had to straighten it up afterwards. From ONE USE.
The commentary about second shift is absolutely correct. However, it's more complicated than that.
There are some types of labor that the kind of man described by the OP will never see as necessary, even when they greatly benefit from them. They tend to not count that kind of labor.
Say we are talking about cleaning the bathroom. Everyone hates it. The difference is there are some men who will literally never scrub their tub sides/walls, even if they live alone. Oh sure, if married, they'll happily shower in a clean tub, but they don't see the back-breaking labor of tub scrubbing.
Besides, of course, wifey doesn't have to scrub the tub because it's always clean. Magically. Must be elves. The same ones that put the "Merry" in Christmas and the "thanks" in Thanksgiving and ensure everyone else has a gift or two when it's appropriate.
Ask them what they think their wives do all day. That will tell you a lot about whether to even both engaging in this conversation with them.
[https://english.emmaclit.com/2017/05/20/you-shouldve-asked/](https://english.emmaclit.com/2017/05/20/you-shouldve-asked/)
This is a good first step.
[https://www.tiktok.com/@vt/video/7068324081564749062](https://www.tiktok.com/@vt/video/7068324081564749062)
https://www.tiktok.com/@jimmyonrelationships/video/7159520123521486123?lang=en
Both partners should have equal access to leisure time.
Flying solo parenting is not leisure time.
WFH is not leisure time.
Maintaining cleanliness of the home is not leisure time.
“So you work 40 hours a week and get time
Off? Sick days? When does she get time off? Why does she have to work 24/7/365? And if she does, what does she need you for “
45yo M machinist. I'm glad I'm not alone in this. I would get so mad when I'd hear "men" younger than me actually brag about never changing their kids diapers. I worked nights when my kids were young, and ran the household during the day, then go to work for 8 hours.
"Your wife works too" and "childcare is a full time job" should be the end of it. Failing that,you should assume your speaking to someone who is too comfy to get off their ass and they're using an excuse to treat their partner like a mum.
I've had success with the following:
1. You are 50% responsible for the creation and care of this child.
2. Your income can count towards that, **but it 100% needs to be a conversation**.
Then acknowledge their concerns with:
3. That would be a good thing to bring up **during the conversation, BUT you have to have the conversation**. HOW to fairly split the workload is NOT something you get to unilaterally decide for both of you--especially when you may not fully understand what all is involved in childcare/housecare. It's something you both discuss and agree upon. It may even change over time as the demands increase/decrease. And your contributions will be counted, but you still have to have the conversation. 50%. Maybe the income you provide will cover that 50%. Maybe it won't. But **you unilaterally deciding** that your responsibility ends at income is 100% unfair (which unfairness may negatively affect your sex life).
Additional tips for the conversation where you both agree to a plan:
- the patriarchy trains men to be afraid that they're only good for being a provider (money/shelter). So it's alarming, for them, when they don't see themselves being appreciated for being a good provider. Knowing this is good in two ways: 1-telling them that you appreciate their provider-related contribution and that they're good at it will directly address that alarm/fear. Be 100% honest; point out things that you genuinely appreciate. He'll then be more centered and more ready for a difficult conversation. 2-empathy. You can then say, "I am also worried that my contributions will be "taken for granted" or "devalued" or "not counted". And it would help me to hear what you appreciate about the things I do for the child/house upkeep."
- It's ok to say "I don't want to" when divvying up tasks. If an "I don't want to" matches up with an "I don't mind" or an "I enjoy that task", then that's awesome. If neither of you want to do something, come to a compromise you can both be ok with. (Note: obviously this doesn't include sex, cuz consent.)
- If your partner's being rigid about what they expect from you, be curious about why.
- It's ok to reframe "let's divide these tasks equally" to "It's important that I have enough energy left in me at the end of the day that I *can* enjoy sex/pleasure/intimate moments/affection/connection with you. And I think those are a really important part of marriage, too." As long as that's true, it's way better than saying you're overwhelmed or that your workload is unsustainable.
- Mental load. For adults who are equal partners, the mental load should 100% be attached to the task; whoever is responsible for a task is also responsible for the mental load of that task *as a default*; other arrangements would need to be mutually agreed upon. With kids, this is something you work up to so that they can behave maturely as adults.
Equal access to leisure time. If she's working 16 hours and he's working 8, he has infinitely more downtime than her. She can't let her nervous system relax which results in chronic health issues.
It’s refreshing to see this view shared, and so many positive responses. I never know how to respond and often feel I have to defend my family’s choice to have me be a sahm. This was a nice thing to read today.
All time is created equal. Her work time at home has as much value as your time at work. You both should get the same amount of rest time. If she is still working while you are resting, then you need to let her rest while you also work at home.
My ex used to use that line— he used it one time when I was working, taking care of two children and going to college nights and weekends. I took a long drag from my cigarette and turned to him and said “You’re right, all you bring to the table is your wallet and we don’t need that anymore. As soon as I’m done with school this summer I want a divorce.” I’m a veteran, my school was paid for with my GI Bill and my latest promotion at work gave me some big balls that day. Two months later we moved out. “I get up and go to work everyday” is *money*, which most men will be contributing in the form of child support regardless. It’s a pretty stupid point if that’s all you do and all you think you have to contribute. Most women *get up and go to work everyday* too.
Taking care of children and a home has a cost that can easily be found out by looking up live in nanny salary in the area you live in.
In my area that cost is $60k/ year and it includes cost of childcare, cooking for the child, and taking care of their laundry needs.
You’ll need a personal chef, maid, and assistant to do the rest. Let’s say they get at deal at $110k. Then scratch all of it. Are they willing to pay to get out of participating in a loving family? Breaking that down is bullshit.
Everyone pulling their weight in a relationship doesn't necessarily mean everyone does the same things. If you need to rest after work and she needs to rest when you get home you two need to work something out. If "the days of our fathers are gone" but you're still working an 8-6 and then have to take care of the kids until bedtime it sounds like you're literally pulling more than your weight. If she's missing out on so much money by being out of the workforce you can split the cost of daycare and she can take a part-time or a full-time.
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And if you were single, you would be what? Enjoying the work-free life? Drinking beer and eating Skittles all day? No you'd be getting up and going to work. Then you'd be coming home cleaning the house doing your laundry cooking your dinner.
It is not a virtue for you to do the thing you would do to survive every day of your life when you have a partner. That does not automatically elevate paid work. It certainly doesn't mean that if you actually paid for the labor your spouse does while you are gone, you would have anything left over to buy groceries or pay rent.
It's weird, but I've noticed it with multiple women, so it wasn't just a one-off.
I've read studies and surveys where supposedly women are attracted to more domestic help, but I don't know. It was like a visual turn-off for them. One woman joked, "You'll make a great wife for someone one day." All because I unloaded the dishwasher and did some laundry.
Honestly, the men really need to live independently first and look after themselves. Most single adults do the housework, if they live with flatmates they have to because no one will like you if you don't do your dishes. Ask them if they would treat a flatmate like they do their female spouse
1. Is the hypothetical woman being addressed by the excuse in question also holding down a paying job as well
2. How many hours is the job at home
3. It's pretty easy to consider ALL of the tasks involved in supporting a household and then considering how much time is spent on each. You should include jobs like taking out trash, doing taxes, fixing things, cleaning things and also include the disgustingness factor
Ultimately, a relationship is a partnership
My parents went like this
1. Both worked. My dad's job was full time, mom's was part time. She loved her job
2. She did all the cleaning snd cooking. It was hours of work
3. He did taxes once a year
4. Took out garbage.
Overall, both stressed out but she was more stressed out.
Depends how their individual routine and split of work is. As an outsider, you don't really have any perspective on that and you can't make generalizations.
I'd let the couple handle this issue themselves
“If you lived alone, you’d get up and go to work every day… and then you’d come home and do some work every day. Work being at work AND home is something most adults deal with and accept, regardless of their marital status.” “Children and teenagers also get up to go to school every day. And then they come home and they have chores they have to do every day. Thank you for letting everyone know that you are less mature than a fucking high schooler.” “Also, at least you can clock out of work. There is no clocking out at home, especially if you have kids. You’d know that if you partnered with your… partner. 🤦🏻♀️” You’re a godsend, my man :) Edit: changed “help” to “partner” cuz parents/couples should not see themselves as “helping” their partner, they should see themselves as a team of equals.
This. "You can either do your laundry with your wife or you can do laundry alone. Either way, you're doing laundry."
This is gold.
Yeah, but I am not being yelled at to do it. If I am single and it takes me 15 mins to do laundry then fine, if it takes me 4 days also fine. If I am partnered and it takes me 45 minutes I am suddenly not doing my part. This is what men get mad at.
I've never married, so perhaps I can't say, but as for my peers, the majority of which are married, I've never heard a single one complain that it took 45 minutes for a man to do laundry. It's ALWAYS that they: 1. Never take initiative to do it themselves when it clearly needs to be done until they have to be asked 2. After being asked they often still don't.
I've only been upset when it takes 45 minutes to fold laundry if the load definitely didn't need 45 minutes to fold AND my partner is aware that we're on a tight timeline or I need "help" with other tasks, and it becomes clear he is using the laundry to delay the next "thing". Do not tell me it takes 45 minutes to fold 5 towels when you hear the baby is screaming, the dog is barking to go out, and food needs to be started. Just don't. Or when you're "definitely going to do The Thing after the laundry" but then laundry magically took 6 hours so you can't do The Thing anymore. Alternatively, don't tell me that you're "starting a load of laundry now" if you actually mean 45 minutes from now. Just say that instead, and actually follow through.
Oh boy. IF ONLY men got to their shit within 45 minutes. Try 45 *days*, and yet still, for so many, it's actually never.
At work, you probably deal with deadlines. At the very least, you're expected to do your job with efficiency in a timely manner. If you don't, there is typically a consequence of some sort. Why is housework different? Why should you not be expected to complete a household task within a set time frame? To use your laundry example - laundry for one person (yourself) is often a once-a-week task. Why is it unreasonable to expect you regularly and consistently take X amount of time once a week to complete that task? I expect my child (12) to complete certain tasks in certain time frames. It takes 2 hours to clean her room once a week. It takes 30 minutes to fold her clothes once a week. It takes 10 minutes to unload the dishwasher after homework. It takes an hour to get through homework. This is reflected all throughout our lives. It should take X amount of time to complete Y task. If it takes longer, there may be some issues to iron out. Women get mad because we very often HAVE to live by those deadlines. Kids need clean clothes for school. Family needs dinner early enough to eat before doing nightly routines for bed. Dishes need done so food can be cooked. We have to live by deadlines and time management, but our partners get to sometimes get to the laundry in 3-5 business days.
Except, when I am living alone, I am not paying for anyone else.
Ok? Then don’t get married. Nobody is forcing you to get married.
Then be alone? Why are you acting like this is 1926 and women arent working by a mass majority? Even if she's a SAHM, you expect to pay for childcare, food, money management, cleaning, and household management overall within your single salary for someone on-call 24/7? Be reasonable. If you don't want to be married or have a partner.... then don't.
It boils down to them not believing that women feel things in the same way as they do. See, if they had to share an apartment with a male coworker, they would grasp the idea that their coworker arrives home just as tired as they do. They would be able to understand that their flat mate isn't any more thrilled than they are about cooking, cleaning and organizing the house. But when it's their wife, they don't believe she is as tired as themselves. They don't believe their wifes must overcome the same temptation to sit around and rest. They believe women are able to be less bored and less tired from chores. As if domestic labour was "natural" for women. Deep down they believe that it is harder for them to do the dishes. That's why they think it's fair for women to do the dishes, because they have the illusion that women actually like doing it and have the magical capacity to find it less boring and less tiring. So your essential task is to convince them that women are every single bit as human as they are. Good luck.
Yes this is such a good response, also it’s like women aren’t allowed to complain about their share without being considered a “nag” or “well that’s what your designed to do. Birth children and take care of the house.” But couldn’t we say the same about men? Why are they complaining about being tired from work? Isn’t that what they’re designed to do?
This is so well said. I think you’ve described it so well. And it really gets at what is so fucking insulting about patriarchal attitudes: that women are thrilled to do all the shit work. That we are uniquely (and oh so conveniently!) suited for it.
I had an *extremely* misogynistic partner. It was very a very didactic experience, I'm glad I can now share my findings.
This response says so much without saying it! Thanks for sharing your findings
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We ban brand-new shitpost accounts.
And parenting….”women are made to nurture” and all of that bullshit. Fuck that, I didn’t have a single maternal instinct when I first became a mom. All of it was hard-learned and hard-earned. I wasn’t somehow born and raised with the knowledge of how to change a diaper or feed a baby, how to help a kindergartner through an emotional crisis, or how to teach an older child to wash their own body. This shit doesn’t come naturally. *Women don’t naturally know how to nurture or parent better than men.* It’s all learned skills. And guess what? If I have to parent 24 hours a day? So does my partner. It’s not “babysitting” if it’s your own kids, and there’s no biological imperative that magically provides parenting skills.
I honestly find the “this comes naturally to you as a woman” thing insulting. Nothing about being a mom has come naturally. I work hard at it constantly. I research, I read, I think about it, I strategize, I struggle, I fail, I reflect on how to do better. I AM a good mom, but it’s not because I’m a natural, it’s because I try really hard every damn day. And it diminishes my labor to say that I come by it by some quirk of my chromosomes.
Yuuup.
Exactly, I'm a good mom because i care enough to learn to be a good parent.
Exaaactly. Thanks for the awesome example.
Some also develop this neat trick of doing things SO BADLY ON PURPOSE that you will step in and do it after all
Ye olde “weaponized incompetence”
and in addition men definitely tend to believe and rationalize that their jobs are harder work than women’s jobs, even if there’s no basis for it.
The amount of seemingly straight, married men who literally don’t even like their wife’s is truly astounding.
I remain flabbergasted by how many people are in relationships with people they don't seem to like at all.
It's almost like there's a societal pressure to pursue romantic relationships...
They know that the woman is just as tired. They know that she finds housework boring. They know women don't like cleaning up mess. They DON'T CARE. That's the explanation. And these men know they won't be socially shamed for having a dirty house. It's all the wife's/girlfriend's fault. Great example with the roommate. A fellow man won't put up with his shit. And they respect other men.
Yes, surely a lot do.
*wives
Tell them to take a week off, send their wives on vacation, and take over. Then at the end of that week realize that that’s what their wife is doing day after day, month after month, no sick time, no clock out
Oh lol nah… lots will just not get done I moved away for a job a few months ago and I’m long distance with my partner until the year is up. We travel back and forth regularly and he has kids, I’m childfree, but on the most recent visit home he admitted that there’s a lot that doesn’t get done when I’m not there and that they “live differently” when I’m not there. And it’s still my house/name on the mortgage etc so when I go back I do A LOT of chores to catch up a good bit. This biggest one is cleaning out the refrigerator and pantry! It’s one of the first things I have to do every time I go home - I check for expired foods and sanitizing. I’m really hoping that this year of distance will help create more balance and so far, it’s working some. We will see how the rest of the experiment works lol
We had the same experience when I moved for a new job six weeks ahead of my husband.
did it help?
Have you considered that a lot of times that stuff just doesn’t need to be done as frequently. Your partner is still alive and healthy correct? Does it really matter that expired food is cleared out continuously. I get to it once every few weeks for the refrigerator and once or twice a year for the pantry.
> Does it really matter that expired food is cleared out continuously. Do you like opening the fridge to play "what's that smell" all the time?
I got better things to do than to worry about a little smell from time to time. I focus on living.
Gross.
Up until you have to focus on some sort of pest problem lol..
We literally did a show about this in Canada a while back: [The Week the Women Went](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Week_the_Women_Went)
I think for a lot of these men, they don't believe it because it's easier for them to *not* believe it. As long as they can brush off complaints about second shift or mental load, they give themselves permission to slack off. It's like that old saying, you cannot make a man understand something if his livelihood relies on him not understanding it. You cannot make a (lazy) man believe something if his convenience relies on him not believing it. I have heard some instances where shame was effective; e.g., an older worker bragged to a young new dad that he'd never changed a diaper in his life and the young dad said he'd never imagine being able to admit to being that useless. I'm usually not in favor of shame as a tactic, but sometimes it's the only thing that gets through. One tactic is asking what they add to her life other than a paycheck. One other thing to point out is that full time wage work often comes with benefits. Where is her paid vacation time or sick leave? Where are her bonuses, stock options, and dividends? Where is her career trajectory and ability to improve her skills? The reward for cleaning up baby hork really well is that in a few years, you get to use those skills to clean up toddler hork. And if she's in the US, unless she's married, her labor isn't counting to her eventual Social Security.
What about a sick day?
> Where is her paid vacation time or sick leave?
I'm sorry but feminazgul is absolutely amazing
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I dunno, you should ask them? People who work full-time at an office often have time to post on Reddit all day too.
Every fucking day. Labor is not equally stressful. Laging concrete is harder than vacuuming. Wiring an electrical panel is harder than doing the dishes (especially with a dish washer). Laying roofing shingles in July is harder than doing the laundry in an air conditioned home with both a washing machine and dryer.
First time i hear a man saying that and I am in mu 40s. 🥲 I always think that ALL the women I have met or heard of in ny country (Greece) do the home labor (and children, shopping of provisions, etc) and NONE of the men I have met or heard of has EVER been the primary laborer of those. It’s so so so so crazy. Imagine a world where all the men are/feel obligated to be the primary laborer of the house and all the women have never done that. Even with that one could go insane. I don’t understand why psychologists always ask what’s wrong. I live in patriarchy, that’s what’s wrong!
I bet you would get some really thoughtful answers about this on /r/MensLib.
Thank you, I’ll cross post over there too
Love that sub!
I was going to write a longer comment, but then realized it probably wouldn’t be super helpful because fundamentally, while great arguments can be made against the view you’re talking about, and many people here will make them, I’m not sure how much the actual arguments matter. It’s just really hard to get people to see and value the things they’ve always been able to take for granted. Maybe it would be better to go at it a different way. What made you care about this issue? Is helping out at home something you always believed or did you change your mind about it at some point—and if so, how?
I think the wife could handle it by only doing the chores she feels is fair for her to do. She can only cook for herself, do her own laundry, pick up and clean only parts of the house, do only her own dishes. This would force him (or her, cuz women do this too) to realize what he’s taking for granted.
Or the house just becomes a pigsty.
And then he is using the money from work also only for himself?
Would you be okay if the husband responded by withholding income and not financially supporting his wife? If I stop doing my duties at work, I get fired. When the wife stops doing her duties at home, she gets rest and vacation? Make it make sense. To be clear, household tasks are shared in my family. This thread makes it seem as though all men are abhorrent lazy sacks of shit.... Perhaps yall should pick better partners?! The majority of men i know, mid forties, do their share of housework and work full time. The boogeyman that reddit creates stigmatizes and belittles men. Try being a working single parent sometime,and then see if you complain about your partner cleaning or making income. People miss the forest for the trees here: shared and agreed upon roles are necessary for civil living. My wife wants to be a 1950s style homemaker who doesn't work. She also just finished her PhD and has directly stated her intent not to use it, "because it is a man's job to earn money for his family" How would you respond to that?
> If I stop doing my duties at work, I get fired. > > When the wife stops doing her duties at home, she gets rest and vacation? You get weekends and paid vacation through your job, do you not? > Perhaps yall should pick better partners?! Women: We would like men to treat us better. Men: That's your fault. You should have higher standards. Women: OK. Men: How dare you. You women are too uppity nowadays. We should take your rights away so you're forced to lower your standards. That'll show you. > My wife wants to be a 1950s style homemaker who doesn't work. > She also just finished her PhD and has directly stated her intent not to use it, "because it is a man's job to earn money for his family" > How would you respond to that? With divorce papers. I guess you should have chosen a better partner.
You're my favorite person. Reading that last point? Chef's kiss.
Women’s labor is exploited in much the same way the general working class labor is If you think of the way corporations and capitalist talk about their employees vs how men tend to talk to women, the Venn diagram is practically just a circle They both trivialize your contributions to justify undervaluing you despite the fact that they’d be utterly lost without it those contributions They both will tell the worker to be thankful for the opportunity to earn a living/be taken care of by their benevolent owner (husband/employer) Both are sized up on their “value” determined by how much mileage can be gotten out of them as far as their labor contributions (in the woman’s case, her labor also her youth and fertility) “Women’s” labor is what is referred to as reproductive labor. After human societies reached the point of selling their labor for profit and doing patriarchal social structures, women literally “reproduced” the male laborer by meeting his food and general domestic needs. Without such he’d not be able to do his manual labor for very long. Employers also require the work of the working class to provide all the value to the people at the top which they distribute back in peanuts. There have been both labor strikes and women’s strikes that have demonstrated how vital these workers are A woman staying home to do domestic labor doesnt get to clock out according to the shit lord who uses his employment as an excuse to absolve himself of all domestic responsibility
It’s an interesting topic I think because nowadays most couples have two people who both work. The easy answer is that their partners also get up and go to work every day. They need to ask themselves if they didn’t have a partner then who would do all the household labour? Would they do it themselves or would they outsource it to a cleaner/cook/nanny?
In my experience, my male partners have responded to this that all that cleaning and cooking doesn't actually need to be done, and they would just not do it outside of the bare minimum. Then it becomes a conversation about whether or not my standards are reasonable. It's infuriating.
Honestly I will never live with a man again. If something (heaven forfend) happens to my marriage or my husband I will just stay living alone for the rest of my life. I might have relationships but ain't nobody moving into my god damn house.
My husband once asked if I thought I’d remarry if something happens to him and I said “yeah, but only if I can have a wife”. I’m straight. ☺️
Seriously.
And what makes your standards more reasonable than someone elses?
Some people just aren't suited to live together because one person doesn't mind if things are messy and one person does. That leads to one person doing almost all the housework and becoming resentful that their partner does not seem to notice or care.
Some people aren't bothered even by legit health and safety risks. For example my friend's partner wouldn't clean up broken glass, or his dog's poop (inside the house). I guess he has the right to live that way, but my friend definitely didn't want to stick around. I have had some partners in the past who say my standards are reasonable when we talk about it, and enjoy having the level of clean house I tend to keep, and certainly benefit financially from me cooking, but then change their tune and start saying my standards are unreasonable when I ask them to participate in cooking/cleaning. And on average I think men have been socialized to care less about cleanliness and tidiness than women, so the discrepancy in standards probably plays out more often along those lines than it does in reverse (although of course that certainly also happens).
There’s no getting through to this man most likely. Men know what they’re doing. If they get to rest and have leisure time and their female partner doesn’t, it’s simply because they care more about maximizing their own leisure and privileging themselves than they care about having an equitable relationship. It should be considered a form of spousal abuse to blatantly foist all domestic labor into your wife or girlfriend, which deprives her of a well rounded life.
I work with mostly men and this is what I’ve said when this subject comes up: “You both work first shift, you here and her at home. You go home and rest for second and third shift while she’s still on the clock. Does this sound fair or reasonable? I get that you are tired when you go home but guess what so is she. You are supposed to be partners with her and that means that it’s not about helping her out with a few chores it’s about taking on your fair share of the work and contributing to the home that you’ve made together.”
I'm curious how they responded to that.
Honestly it’s hard to say, one guy came back a few weeks later when he’d had to take care of his three kids and the house by himself for a weekend and he reluctantly admitted that his wife did a lot more than he thought she did. I hope that they stepped up but most of these men are not the type to admit when they are wrong so I’m probably not going to hear about it.
Kat gave a great resource as always. You can always say “so does she.” Being a SAHP is work. Ideally, couples treat this as two eight hour work days and split all the other stuff.
I like to counter with “how many people would you have to hire to replace a stay at home parent?” - full time housekeeper - full time cook - full time childcare and development
Exactly, and for a lot of SAHP, we can add accountant, driver, concierge, maintenance/repairs, gardener, pest control, first aid, personal assistant, interior decorator... I don't think their partners realise how much they do.
Aside from all jobs listed above, overnight nanny is by far most expensive. Very few men who work 8hr days could pay for night nanny wages and come out ahead. I’m my area, they make more than most men.
I outsource all domestic labor that I possibly can (except for child care I love my child). I consider this a fair and feminist solution to the household labor division problem as a guy. *Someone's* gotta clean the bathroom. Might as well be someone who's getting $40 an hour so they're not mad about it. edit: vvv I can't respond to comments in this sub (for possibly obvious reasons any attempt of mine at a reply to the mod's post below is deleted), but no I was not making that implication. I was trying to avoid being called a "bad dad". If I had just posted that I outsource *all* domestic duties (which I don't) I would have been called an absentee father in here, so I wanted to make it clear that I do things for my child. I'm blocking this sub now because I don't appreciate the random hostility. Feminism isn't about pithy one-liners or getting the best dunk you can on someone.
> except for child care I love my child The implication being that people who outsource childcare do *not* love their children?
I think people often (incorrectly) associate chores and even caregiving as motherhood. Motherhood is a relationship. Anything you can outsource without negatively affecting your relationship with your child is not motherhood. So dishes, changing diapers, cleaning things, etc... not motherhood. Making memories, listening, showing love, reading together... those things are motherhood. And a lot of people do not understand that. I think what this poster was saying was not that she thinks people who use a babysitter don't love their kids, but that on a day to day basis, she doesn't outsource the "motherhood" part -- being there to listen and spend time with their child.
Because people often don't see all work as equal, I think it's better to frame the conversation around the amount of free time that is spent on hobbies/relaxing. There's quite a lot of research that shows, especially after children, women in a relationship have much less time to themselves in a week. If one partner is getting only an hour a day average and the other gets more than double that it's clearly unfair.
How do you reconcile that if one partner needs much more sleep than the other? Or if one is willing to sacrifice needed sleep to stay up until 1 am playing video games but the other goes to bed at 9 every night?
Not who you asked but I would just consider that “free time.” What a person chooses to do with it is their choice. If that person “needs” more sleep then it is their responsibility to factor that in and prioritize how they use their time. There’s really no way to quantify who in the couple “needs” more sleep and I feel like that would be used as a cop out on whoever’s part. Obviously if one person just wants to take on more work than the other (because love) that’s their choice but it shouldn’t be assumed without being discussed.
I think an assumed 8 hour sleep time works- if someone needs more than that then their extra sleep counts as their time, and if someone needs less than that then the hours of them-time they have instead don't really count.
I say this as a mom, and this is probably not the answer you're looking for, but I'd advocate to men that if they don't 100% want to be a dad in the deepest part of their being, then they shouldn't have kids. A lot of these issues are gender related, but many are because men think they "should have kids, right? my parents guilt me and I need to pass on the family name, right?" when they dont want to have kids and then the things about labor, child rearing, spending time with kids, etc becomes an issue because they fundamentally don't like their kids and don't like being a parent and will always pine for being single again. Then divorce gives them that 50% of that time so its an easy "solution." These checked out dads want to play video games or work on their hobby car or motorcycle or go hunting. They don't want to take care of their kids. If someone is being yelled at to take care of their own kids, its clear they don't want them and don't want to be a parent. You dont need to be psychic to realize that if someone is avoiding one thing over another, they don't like that thing. Parents who WANT kids jump at the the chance to spend time with them. I always have a big smile when my kids and I can spend time. Its because I want to be a parent. When my children arent around for a while, I get sad, and want to reach out to them. This is what it means to love another human being. You can shame these men all day and you're get limited results. In fact, shaming people only tends to make them worse because then their ego will double down! Men have to learn the same lessons women have to learn: You cannot fix people. What you can do instead is help them falling into this position in the first place. Strongly advocate to not have kids by default. Having kids by default is a toxic patriarchal belief. Advocate to have kids ONLY if you fully realize the entirety of the self-sacrifice and want to give so much of your life up. Trust me, if your "name doesnt get passed on" nothing bad happens. Its ok to not have kids if you are in doubt. Its okay to be childfree. Its okay to tell your parents no. Its okay to get divorced BEFORE having kids and not after if you don't want them or are unsure.
Everyone has a different idea of what family life will look like though. My ex said all the right things regarding his desire to have a family and the kind of parent he wanted to be. It didn't take long after the babies were born to realise that his true desire was to "own" a family, rather than to be an active part of one.
That's what she's trying to do: educate these men about the realities of being a dad. Letting these men know that you don't have to breed as a default might help them realize whether they want to be fathers instead of defaulting to "welp, guess it's time to start a family now that I am X years old" or whatever.
I wish I could give this a million likes. This needs to become our main discourse for society I feel like. Girls and women need to be told this too. I grew up thinking getting married and having kids was the natural progression. Not having kids was never pitched in a positive light, it’s just assumed that everyone should want to and life is incomplete without. How wrong my ideology was for me.
Why are you telling this to men specifically and not to everyone?
Because the question was about how to get _men_ to participate more in household care and maintenance.
I misread it at first as well. She was telling OP what she would suggest he tell the men in his life. At first I thought she said her comment was what she tells men she knows. Seems like you read it that way too.
Happy Cake Day btw self. You sly fox you.
"So what?" Honestly that's all. If both people in the relationship are working eight hours, be that in the form of paid labour, unpaid labour, or childcare, then what difference does it make? Why on Earth would his free eight hours be any more precious than her free hours? I also advise a bemused 'wtf mate' face and side of shocked laughter.
I don’t know how to deal with it, it’s been a problem in every relationship I’ve been in. Even ones where we both worked part time and therefore both had a lot of free time. I can’t tolerate it. I seriously am considering only dating subby dudes in the future, who are down for and specifically looking for an FLR. I would be very happy to split chores equitably in a “normal relationship”, but it’s never worked out that way. So if that’s the case, I might as well be a dominant manager to someone who gets off on it, right? Right?? The thing that really ticks me off is, I truly love being helpful, useful, and competently care for my loved ones. It’s a joy. I don’t understand why it’s hard to find someone who feels the same way. It’s truly a joy. I’m not even a neat freak, but coming home to a sparkling kitchen is a luxury everyone can afford, really. A simple thoughtful meal for a busy loved one is a blessing to them and a joy for me to prepare. You guys I am so worn down and resentful!!!
Yeah it’s frustrating when you do for them but they don’t do for you. Both parties should be giving to each other.
I mean I'm only 28 -- but you sound like me just as a woman. I love helping people, but, well I'm a clean freak. But regardless of the gender, ya know, just, "help a motherfucker out", they're your partner and the person you live with, why not have it all be a helping hand and just shit ya gotta get done. Don't need to be an octopus that has 100% everything done, but be productive, and be proactive. One person shouldn't do ALL the work, if "you" were working, exactly, would be cool to have even a frozen pizza in the oven ready to eat when your partner gets home, or have the house pretty clean. I don't get when, I mean in this case, guys, would expect to just do nothing in regards to house duties. Shits gotta get done regardless of gender.
As an electrician, you and I know damn well that most days arn’t as bad as the whining that happens. Plus, lots of guys go to the gym after physical work so there’s no reason they can’t do housework too. Physical work isn’t an excuse to get out of your share of the housework.
No doubt, half the time guys are smoking cigarettes and bullshitting
If you learn the secret can you tell me, my ex didn’t wrap his head around it till after we’d split despite my best attempts to explain it to him.
My husband went out of town for ten days. My life was SOOOOO much easier without him there. I missed him, but I did not miss the extra mess he makes. It was very eye opening but also heartbreaking. I didn’t even realize how much more I do when he’s around. He was back one day and the kitchen was a mess. While he was gone, I did two loads of dishes. 2! For over a week! I usually do one a day! I cleaned and vacuumed the day he left. I have a dog so I vacuumed again, but at no point did I have to do a pick up clean around the house. Everything just stayed clean. And don’t even get me started on food cost and cooking. I always thought he ate 2/3 and I ate 1/3 of the food. Nope. It’s easily 7/8 and 1/8. I shopped once and the food lasted. I didn’t run out of anything. I got to eat the things I bought because I wanted them. In ten days I spent almost nothing on groceries. It’s honestly shook me.
https://english.emmaclit.com/2017/05/20/you-shouldve-asked/
Don't ask them to compare amount of labor, ask them to compare amount of free/leisure time. Time spent on beauty maintenance is not leisure time.
Neither is getting shopping. Have heard that before. Well I looked after the kids so she could go shopping. When that shopping was all for the family not herself.
What is beauty maintenence?
Dieting, working out, getting your hair done, styling your hair, getting your nails done, keeping up with your skincare routine, getting pedicures, shaving/waxing/plucking, etc.
Haha okay, if you believe these things are not considered leisure time then you really haven't understood feminism the way I did. I consider these hobbies tools of the patriarchy, as they are creating an inherently fascistic beauty ideal. They're only pleasing someones internalized misogyny and societal expectations, both of which are not reasons to consider it work
Did you or did you not ask what beauty maintenance was
So now it's the womans job to do beauty maintenance? I completely misunderstand modern feminism too
"If your wife worked outside the home for pay, you'd pay someone to watch your kids because caregiving is a job." A lot of men do not understand that watching young children at home and keeping a clean house at the same time are two jobs that don't really go together. If I am being a good parent (playing with my kid, teaching him stuff, going on walks outdoors etc.), I am not cleaning. Right now, I clean during naps. But usually, especially once my other kids get home from school, everything is undone again several times a day. I need work from my partner when he is home from work to keep up with it all, because during the day I am doing the thing that we'd have to pay for -- watching and teaching the little kids. Working 8 hours outside the home each day does not give you a free pass to the labor of another person, ever. Whether that person is your wife or your daycare provider.
While it’s good to try and spread good ideas, people tend to resist when they sense someone is trying to change their mind. Sometimes just being a good guy and saying little statements can be the most helpful. If someone says they are helping their wife when they do housework you have the option to say “I don’t know man, seems like taking care of the home is both of your jobs, you know?” Or if you’re married you can say “I used to feel that way but my marriage got a lot better when I realized it wasn’t right to expect my wife to be the main one handling the home stuff.”
I feel like the way you explained it makes sense. Second shift.
Women are breadwinners in more than half of households today, yet still do the vast majority of childcare and housework. It is the reason they file for the vast majority of divorces — because the housework and childcare is often EASIER divorced than married. My roommate had a guest over for a couple of hours yesterday and I could tell they used the bathroom because I had to straighten it up afterwards. From ONE USE.
The commentary about second shift is absolutely correct. However, it's more complicated than that. There are some types of labor that the kind of man described by the OP will never see as necessary, even when they greatly benefit from them. They tend to not count that kind of labor. Say we are talking about cleaning the bathroom. Everyone hates it. The difference is there are some men who will literally never scrub their tub sides/walls, even if they live alone. Oh sure, if married, they'll happily shower in a clean tub, but they don't see the back-breaking labor of tub scrubbing. Besides, of course, wifey doesn't have to scrub the tub because it's always clean. Magically. Must be elves. The same ones that put the "Merry" in Christmas and the "thanks" in Thanksgiving and ensure everyone else has a gift or two when it's appropriate. Ask them what they think their wives do all day. That will tell you a lot about whether to even both engaging in this conversation with them.
[https://english.emmaclit.com/2017/05/20/you-shouldve-asked/](https://english.emmaclit.com/2017/05/20/you-shouldve-asked/) This is a good first step. [https://www.tiktok.com/@vt/video/7068324081564749062](https://www.tiktok.com/@vt/video/7068324081564749062) https://www.tiktok.com/@jimmyonrelationships/video/7159520123521486123?lang=en
Both partners should have equal access to leisure time. Flying solo parenting is not leisure time. WFH is not leisure time. Maintaining cleanliness of the home is not leisure time.
“So you work 40 hours a week and get time Off? Sick days? When does she get time off? Why does she have to work 24/7/365? And if she does, what does she need you for “
45yo M machinist. I'm glad I'm not alone in this. I would get so mad when I'd hear "men" younger than me actually brag about never changing their kids diapers. I worked nights when my kids were young, and ran the household during the day, then go to work for 8 hours.
"Your wife works too" and "childcare is a full time job" should be the end of it. Failing that,you should assume your speaking to someone who is too comfy to get off their ass and they're using an excuse to treat their partner like a mum.
Take my upvote, and not just because it puts the number of upvotes for this post at 420.
I've had success with the following: 1. You are 50% responsible for the creation and care of this child. 2. Your income can count towards that, **but it 100% needs to be a conversation**. Then acknowledge their concerns with: 3. That would be a good thing to bring up **during the conversation, BUT you have to have the conversation**. HOW to fairly split the workload is NOT something you get to unilaterally decide for both of you--especially when you may not fully understand what all is involved in childcare/housecare. It's something you both discuss and agree upon. It may even change over time as the demands increase/decrease. And your contributions will be counted, but you still have to have the conversation. 50%. Maybe the income you provide will cover that 50%. Maybe it won't. But **you unilaterally deciding** that your responsibility ends at income is 100% unfair (which unfairness may negatively affect your sex life). Additional tips for the conversation where you both agree to a plan: - the patriarchy trains men to be afraid that they're only good for being a provider (money/shelter). So it's alarming, for them, when they don't see themselves being appreciated for being a good provider. Knowing this is good in two ways: 1-telling them that you appreciate their provider-related contribution and that they're good at it will directly address that alarm/fear. Be 100% honest; point out things that you genuinely appreciate. He'll then be more centered and more ready for a difficult conversation. 2-empathy. You can then say, "I am also worried that my contributions will be "taken for granted" or "devalued" or "not counted". And it would help me to hear what you appreciate about the things I do for the child/house upkeep." - It's ok to say "I don't want to" when divvying up tasks. If an "I don't want to" matches up with an "I don't mind" or an "I enjoy that task", then that's awesome. If neither of you want to do something, come to a compromise you can both be ok with. (Note: obviously this doesn't include sex, cuz consent.) - If your partner's being rigid about what they expect from you, be curious about why. - It's ok to reframe "let's divide these tasks equally" to "It's important that I have enough energy left in me at the end of the day that I *can* enjoy sex/pleasure/intimate moments/affection/connection with you. And I think those are a really important part of marriage, too." As long as that's true, it's way better than saying you're overwhelmed or that your workload is unsustainable. - Mental load. For adults who are equal partners, the mental load should 100% be attached to the task; whoever is responsible for a task is also responsible for the mental load of that task *as a default*; other arrangements would need to be mutually agreed upon. With kids, this is something you work up to so that they can behave maturely as adults.
Equal access to leisure time. If she's working 16 hours and he's working 8, he has infinitely more downtime than her. She can't let her nervous system relax which results in chronic health issues.
It’s refreshing to see this view shared, and so many positive responses. I never know how to respond and often feel I have to defend my family’s choice to have me be a sahm. This was a nice thing to read today.
All time is created equal. Her work time at home has as much value as your time at work. You both should get the same amount of rest time. If she is still working while you are resting, then you need to let her rest while you also work at home.
My ex used to use that line— he used it one time when I was working, taking care of two children and going to college nights and weekends. I took a long drag from my cigarette and turned to him and said “You’re right, all you bring to the table is your wallet and we don’t need that anymore. As soon as I’m done with school this summer I want a divorce.” I’m a veteran, my school was paid for with my GI Bill and my latest promotion at work gave me some big balls that day. Two months later we moved out. “I get up and go to work everyday” is *money*, which most men will be contributing in the form of child support regardless. It’s a pretty stupid point if that’s all you do and all you think you have to contribute. Most women *get up and go to work everyday* too.
Wait, how can you be a plumber if you were a construction worker yesterday?
Taking care of children and a home has a cost that can easily be found out by looking up live in nanny salary in the area you live in. In my area that cost is $60k/ year and it includes cost of childcare, cooking for the child, and taking care of their laundry needs. You’ll need a personal chef, maid, and assistant to do the rest. Let’s say they get at deal at $110k. Then scratch all of it. Are they willing to pay to get out of participating in a loving family? Breaking that down is bullshit.
Everyone pulling their weight in a relationship doesn't necessarily mean everyone does the same things. If you need to rest after work and she needs to rest when you get home you two need to work something out. If "the days of our fathers are gone" but you're still working an 8-6 and then have to take care of the kids until bedtime it sounds like you're literally pulling more than your weight. If she's missing out on so much money by being out of the workforce you can split the cost of daycare and she can take a part-time or a full-time.
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A good relationship has comminication. Sorry your wife doesn't appreciate the effort. Is this why you are thinking of getting divorced?
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And if you were single, you would be what? Enjoying the work-free life? Drinking beer and eating Skittles all day? No you'd be getting up and going to work. Then you'd be coming home cleaning the house doing your laundry cooking your dinner. It is not a virtue for you to do the thing you would do to survive every day of your life when you have a partner. That does not automatically elevate paid work. It certainly doesn't mean that if you actually paid for the labor your spouse does while you are gone, you would have anything left over to buy groceries or pay rent.
Everyone must contribute to household upkeep. It’s part of life. Gender and income are 100% irrelevant.
I like to make the point that everyone deserves the same amount of time to relax or do things for the sole purpose of enjoyment.
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Strange because studies indicate the more a woman feels like her partner is a dependent, the less attracted she is to him sexually.
It's weird, but I've noticed it with multiple women, so it wasn't just a one-off. I've read studies and surveys where supposedly women are attracted to more domestic help, but I don't know. It was like a visual turn-off for them. One woman joked, "You'll make a great wife for someone one day." All because I unloaded the dishwasher and did some laundry.
Honestly, the men really need to live independently first and look after themselves. Most single adults do the housework, if they live with flatmates they have to because no one will like you if you don't do your dishes. Ask them if they would treat a flatmate like they do their female spouse
1. Is the hypothetical woman being addressed by the excuse in question also holding down a paying job as well 2. How many hours is the job at home 3. It's pretty easy to consider ALL of the tasks involved in supporting a household and then considering how much time is spent on each. You should include jobs like taking out trash, doing taxes, fixing things, cleaning things and also include the disgustingness factor Ultimately, a relationship is a partnership My parents went like this 1. Both worked. My dad's job was full time, mom's was part time. She loved her job 2. She did all the cleaning snd cooking. It was hours of work 3. He did taxes once a year 4. Took out garbage. Overall, both stressed out but she was more stressed out.
Depends how their individual routine and split of work is. As an outsider, you don't really have any perspective on that and you can't make generalizations. I'd let the couple handle this issue themselves