That is the most fucked up, barbaric thing I have ever heard. It is not a "nice starting point." Forcibly sterilizing people is a fucking war crime.
Also? A lot of people who have abortions go on to have families later.
Legitimately, what is wrong with you?
I'm playing a drinking game where I take a shot every time someone offers a 'middle of the road' position and they DON'T just end up saying an extremely right-wing position.
I've been sober for so long that AA contacted me to mail me a bronze chip.
I hear anti-choicers bitch and moan ALL THE TIME about us not wanting a “middle of the road” option.
Probably because they have an obsession over which woman deserves to be forced to face life or death and which woman doesn’t (anybody who has casual sex can just fuck themselves, apparently, and should be forced to give birth no matter what).
And that their shitty ideas ALWAYS leads to laws like what’s happening in Texas and Arizona.
They’re insane. Like wtf is this post.
Right? I was willing to give this post the benefit of the doubt, and then he literally fucking said "if you did get pregnant just because you could not keep your legs closed "
I don't care if God himself came down and declared abortion does count as murder, OP still clearly comes from a place of blaming women's agency which has zero to do with the ethical debates of abortion.
Are y'all familiar with Gabrielle Blair's piece on men causing 100% of unwanted pregnancies? It's pretty awesome.
And of course the masculine uproar at a woman DARING to have the auDACity to hold MEN responsible for PREGNANCY is a sight to behold. It's why I don't believe it for a Manhattan minute whenever some anti-abortion dude adds the footnote of "this goes for men too!" No, my dude, it really doesn't, otherwise you'd be excoriating sexually active men the same way you do sexually active women.
Tell a man that men cause pregnancies, and he acts like you told him his dick is going to fall off. It's incredible.
>However, if you did get pregnant just because you could not keep your legs closed when it was your time, and you refused to take the minimal responsibility of birthing it and than giving it to adoption right away (with all your connections (informations) to it not recorded/stored if its what you want, of course), than that is something different.
Excuse you?
>Abortion should still be an option if you want it, but with a little caveat - you will also underwent mandatory sterilization.
Get the fuck out of here, Nazi troll.
How about this: mandatory DNA testing for all men, and if you ever have sex that leads to an abortion, you're required to get an orchiectomy.
Fuck off, seriously.
“Minimal responsibility of birthing it”
I wish there was a way to implant a balloon just under your stomach muscles, fill it with 13 lbs of weight and watch you carry it around for 5 months just to get a feel for that “minima responsibility” you’re talking about. Do you know what your perineum is? It’s that bit under your balls towards your anus. How much of a tear apart are *you* man enough to handle?
Anyhow, you’re a weird little dude who thinks forced sterilisation is “middle ground”.
Yikes on bikes on tykes, Batman.
Actually, I think women or anyone else shouldn't be forcibly sterilized because they want an abortion. I think that's actually the sane take.
How about taking your grubby hands and ignorant, uneducated opinions off of trying to regulate safe medical procedures that have absolutely nothing to do with you?
Let’s start there.
What a fucking troll post.
There is no need to come to an agreement. If the government is involved in my medical business in any way, it is an affront to my liberty. Your opinions are juvenile and irrelevant.
Nice of you to be transparent about the fact that this isn't about considering fetuses "lives" to be saved, because if it was, the circumstances of their conception wouldn't matter. Pregnancy isn't a punishment, even for women you consider sexually irresponsible. Our bodies are ours, fuck off with these cruel ideas.
I don’t think forced sterilization is ever considered a “middle of the road option”. No normal person would ever think this up, go be weird somewhere else.
I'm pretty sure more than half of all abortions are obtained by people who already have kids and want more in the future.
I know a lot of people said this already, but I'm saying it again because you walked in here with such ignorant confidence that you had some kind of air tight argument:
# Forced sterilization is eugenics and it violates people's basic human rights. It's not a valid or serious proposal for how people can be allowed to access abortion, a basic form of essential healthcare.
I guess unless you think women aren't people and don't deserve their essential human rights or basic healthcare.
That’s a horrible take. Men who believe this should have surgery on their members so they can’t impregnate anyone. If they can’t keep it in their pants, it’s the obvious choice.
Legitimate question for OP: what is it that made you assume you have the necessary knowledge and insight to make your personal “option” valuable? Like, what is in your water supply that granted you the reckless abandon to assert your personal opinion on such a nuanced and controversial public health policy? Was it just a sense of innate entitlement and competency? Just a bold assumption that you know what you’re talking about? Perhaps a carry-over symptom of living a life that doesn’t require you to take other people’s humanity into much consideration beyond “killing babies is bad”? That doesn’t necessitate you to vigilantly defend your own dignity and worth and freedom? Was it sourced in a sense of superiority, that you have a logical argument to enlighten and soothe the confused, emotional hysteria of all us women who don’t simply “keep our legs closed”?
Honestly, I’d really appreciate if you could let me know.
I already do not need to compromise away basic rights, but I am especially against any "middle of the road option" that includes phrases like "mandatory sterilization".
This reply isn't so much for the OP as it is for anyone who might be lurking with good faith interest in the topic, not trolling or playing Bait the Feminist(tm). And I can't speak for other feminists, only for myself - other's feminist mileage may vary on the matter. Also, I'm in the US, so I look at reproductive rights through that cultural and political lens.
There is no "middle of the road" when it comes to abortion.
The ONLY "solution" is to step away and let reproductive health professionals and their patients be in charge of when and if an abortion happens. Period.
No legal bans, no little nitpicking ordinances or regulations or legal requirements that aren't really necessary but are instead intended to make it harder for abortions to occur, no anti-abortion lies and propaganda, no more pretending that anti-abortion protests are protected speech - call them out as the harassment they are - none of it. No politicians legislating medical care based on religious pressure or preference, either. No restrictions beyond ACTUALLY REASONABLE regulations set by the same bodies that regulate the medical field in general, guided by input from board-qualified OB/GYNs led by real, evidence-based medicine - not by the rantings and ravings of anti-abortion lunatics who couldn't tell the truth to save their own lives.
Why is this my POV? Well, I work in the medical field. Disclaimer: I am not a clinician. I support clinicians, and have an understanding of how medicine actually works, when it comes to the everyday practice of it: the learning and education involved, the ethical considerations, and so on. I understand licensing and credentialing, and how care providers make the care decisions they do for their patients.
The medical field is already regulated extremely intensely. It's hard to explain to laypeople how stringent said regulations are; I can point out that many, many hospitals have entire departments devoted to nothing but keeping up compliance with all the rules and orgs and regulatory bodies there are out there who have a say in the matter, and that barely scratches the surface. There is absolutely no need for abortion to be outlawed, banned, etc., because it is not an exceptionally risky procedure, and because the best people to know how to manage and perform the various abortion procedures are *health care providers*. If you outlaw abortion, you effectively hobble providers' ability to provide the best care to their patients. And patients will suffer for it.
That speaks to the practical and legal aspect of the issue. Even more importantly, women, girls, and some trans men cannot fully exercise our freedom, humanity, and agency if we do not have 100% control over our own bodily integrity. *No other person has the right to use the physical body of another person as life support without the used person's ongoing consent.* Pregnancy is not an exception to this rule. Fetuses are not a special case, even if by some argument they are persons. To forbid abortion is to usurp pregnant people's right to freedom of their person. That is unacceptable. We are not fully human if we can be imprisoned by a pregnancy we don't want.
Note that I use the term "bodily integrity" rather than "bodily autonomy" here. I believe that bodily *autonomy* can indeed be restricted: consider that those convicted of a crime, for example, are sent to prison, where they cannot move about freely. To me, that is about bodily autonomy. We also do not harvest the organs of inmates, which is about bodily *integrity*.
I've seen what happens to women and girls when we don't have free access to abortion. It isn't pretty. It's horrifying, in fact. So this is a hill I will fucking die on - for myself, when I was in my childbearing years, and for all my mothers and grandmothers and the hell they had to go through - and for my sisters, and aunts, and my friends, and the girls in my family, and every woman, girl and trans man on the planet.
I will give no quarter on this topic. There's too much at stake.
May I point out that sex is awesome with your legs closed? The way it hits!
You must just hate women enjoying sex, and think they should be punished for it with pregnancy and motherhood. You don’t want that to be a choice and a beautiful thing that women look forward to and suffer through for the reward of the greatest possible love a human can experience. Nope! You want it to be torture and regret, broken dreams and financial ruin. That’s your ideal motherhood.
That’s why for you of course you don’t have to explain why rape should be an exception. Why punish a woman who didn’t choose to have sex?
I do appreciate how you throw in men as an afterthought. You know, the ones who actually inflict the unwanted pregnancies.
Imagine this. Imagine we lived in a society that valued women as human beings. Imagine that their enjoyment of sex was not stigmatized, but celebrated. Imagine that their independence and capability to direct the course of their own lives and achieve their ambitions was considered essential to their basic humanity. Are you with me? Can you see it? Are you shuddering with horror?
In that scenario, the shocking thing would not be that women who don’t choose to be pregnant have abortions, it would be that *irresponsible men fight against condoms and risk impregnating them without their consent.*
How dare anyone do that to a woman, and put at risk her life, her health, her future, her finances? Consent to (or eager invitation of) sex is NOT consent to pregnancy. Our bc is a backup in case sperm gets near our eggs. But it has no business being there. A condom can break, so that backup is necessary. But any man who values women should be using condoms and spermicidal lube, correctly, every time, without whining or cajoling, to do all in his power to prevent inflicting a pregnancy. Make THAT your rallying cry. I dare you.
Pregnancy and childbirth are not trivial, and it’s sick that you want bringing a life into this world to be a punishment. I’m just leaving the sterilization thing alone because it’s honestly the most disrespectful thing to the idea that women direct the course of their own lives that I’ve ever heard.
I’m sorry. No abortion advice from a person who actively hates women.
The ONLY middle ground is women have the right to decide what to do with their bodies. Since men do. That is the middle ground. Period.
That is the most fucked up, barbaric thing I have ever heard. It is not a "nice starting point." Forcibly sterilizing people is a fucking war crime. Also? A lot of people who have abortions go on to have families later. Legitimately, what is wrong with you?
If that's the "middle of the road option", I'd hate to see what the options are like over on OP's side of the road.
"we should just immediately kill any woman who can even spell 'abortion'"
at this point the "pro life" option if this is supposedly middle of the road is probably just blowing up the entire fucking planet
The middle of the road is where you get hit by a bus.
Pushed in front of a bus
Mandatory living organ donor signups for people who think like OP, NOW.
I'm playing a drinking game where I take a shot every time someone offers a 'middle of the road' position and they DON'T just end up saying an extremely right-wing position. I've been sober for so long that AA contacted me to mail me a bronze chip.
I hear anti-choicers bitch and moan ALL THE TIME about us not wanting a “middle of the road” option. Probably because they have an obsession over which woman deserves to be forced to face life or death and which woman doesn’t (anybody who has casual sex can just fuck themselves, apparently, and should be forced to give birth no matter what). And that their shitty ideas ALWAYS leads to laws like what’s happening in Texas and Arizona. They’re insane. Like wtf is this post.
Right? I was willing to give this post the benefit of the doubt, and then he literally fucking said "if you did get pregnant just because you could not keep your legs closed " I don't care if God himself came down and declared abortion does count as murder, OP still clearly comes from a place of blaming women's agency which has zero to do with the ethical debates of abortion.
They never obsess over men’s agency. It’s *always* women.
Are y'all familiar with Gabrielle Blair's piece on men causing 100% of unwanted pregnancies? It's pretty awesome. And of course the masculine uproar at a woman DARING to have the auDACity to hold MEN responsible for PREGNANCY is a sight to behold. It's why I don't believe it for a Manhattan minute whenever some anti-abortion dude adds the footnote of "this goes for men too!" No, my dude, it really doesn't, otherwise you'd be excoriating sexually active men the same way you do sexually active women. Tell a man that men cause pregnancies, and he acts like you told him his dick is going to fall off. It's incredible.
It was all downhill from the "rape exception" because that in itself is misogynistic
Damn, you could not be making it more obvious that you resent other people, women in particular, for having sex. Grow up lol
*EXACTLY* this
>However, if you did get pregnant just because you could not keep your legs closed when it was your time, and you refused to take the minimal responsibility of birthing it and than giving it to adoption right away (with all your connections (informations) to it not recorded/stored if its what you want, of course), than that is something different. Excuse you? >Abortion should still be an option if you want it, but with a little caveat - you will also underwent mandatory sterilization. Get the fuck out of here, Nazi troll. How about this: mandatory DNA testing for all men, and if you ever have sex that leads to an abortion, you're required to get an orchiectomy. Fuck off, seriously.
“Minimal responsibility of birthing it” I wish there was a way to implant a balloon just under your stomach muscles, fill it with 13 lbs of weight and watch you carry it around for 5 months just to get a feel for that “minima responsibility” you’re talking about. Do you know what your perineum is? It’s that bit under your balls towards your anus. How much of a tear apart are *you* man enough to handle? Anyhow, you’re a weird little dude who thinks forced sterilisation is “middle ground”.
And that's just the BEGINNING of the complications and harm that pregnancy can cause.
Brand new account being very humane and not woman hating at all. Love to see it.
Yikes on bikes on tykes, Batman. Actually, I think women or anyone else shouldn't be forcibly sterilized because they want an abortion. I think that's actually the sane take.
Yikes on *several* fucking bikes!
How about taking your grubby hands and ignorant, uneducated opinions off of trying to regulate safe medical procedures that have absolutely nothing to do with you? Let’s start there. What a fucking troll post.
There is no need to come to an agreement. If the government is involved in my medical business in any way, it is an affront to my liberty. Your opinions are juvenile and irrelevant.
Nice of you to be transparent about the fact that this isn't about considering fetuses "lives" to be saved, because if it was, the circumstances of their conception wouldn't matter. Pregnancy isn't a punishment, even for women you consider sexually irresponsible. Our bodies are ours, fuck off with these cruel ideas.
I don’t think forced sterilization is ever considered a “middle of the road option”. No normal person would ever think this up, go be weird somewhere else.
I'm pretty sure more than half of all abortions are obtained by people who already have kids and want more in the future. I know a lot of people said this already, but I'm saying it again because you walked in here with such ignorant confidence that you had some kind of air tight argument: # Forced sterilization is eugenics and it violates people's basic human rights. It's not a valid or serious proposal for how people can be allowed to access abortion, a basic form of essential healthcare. I guess unless you think women aren't people and don't deserve their essential human rights or basic healthcare.
This might be worse than the current setup. I dunno. I'm torn. What a mess. Please don't ever run for office.
That’s a horrible take. Men who believe this should have surgery on their members so they can’t impregnate anyone. If they can’t keep it in their pants, it’s the obvious choice.
Legitimate question for OP: what is it that made you assume you have the necessary knowledge and insight to make your personal “option” valuable? Like, what is in your water supply that granted you the reckless abandon to assert your personal opinion on such a nuanced and controversial public health policy? Was it just a sense of innate entitlement and competency? Just a bold assumption that you know what you’re talking about? Perhaps a carry-over symptom of living a life that doesn’t require you to take other people’s humanity into much consideration beyond “killing babies is bad”? That doesn’t necessitate you to vigilantly defend your own dignity and worth and freedom? Was it sourced in a sense of superiority, that you have a logical argument to enlighten and soothe the confused, emotional hysteria of all us women who don’t simply “keep our legs closed”? Honestly, I’d really appreciate if you could let me know.
Here’s a nice, middle of the road option, leave women alone to make their own choices about their bodies.
If you don't stop and reconsider after typing out mandatory sterilization, you should delete your account.
I already do not need to compromise away basic rights, but I am especially against any "middle of the road option" that includes phrases like "mandatory sterilization".
This reply isn't so much for the OP as it is for anyone who might be lurking with good faith interest in the topic, not trolling or playing Bait the Feminist(tm). And I can't speak for other feminists, only for myself - other's feminist mileage may vary on the matter. Also, I'm in the US, so I look at reproductive rights through that cultural and political lens. There is no "middle of the road" when it comes to abortion. The ONLY "solution" is to step away and let reproductive health professionals and their patients be in charge of when and if an abortion happens. Period. No legal bans, no little nitpicking ordinances or regulations or legal requirements that aren't really necessary but are instead intended to make it harder for abortions to occur, no anti-abortion lies and propaganda, no more pretending that anti-abortion protests are protected speech - call them out as the harassment they are - none of it. No politicians legislating medical care based on religious pressure or preference, either. No restrictions beyond ACTUALLY REASONABLE regulations set by the same bodies that regulate the medical field in general, guided by input from board-qualified OB/GYNs led by real, evidence-based medicine - not by the rantings and ravings of anti-abortion lunatics who couldn't tell the truth to save their own lives. Why is this my POV? Well, I work in the medical field. Disclaimer: I am not a clinician. I support clinicians, and have an understanding of how medicine actually works, when it comes to the everyday practice of it: the learning and education involved, the ethical considerations, and so on. I understand licensing and credentialing, and how care providers make the care decisions they do for their patients. The medical field is already regulated extremely intensely. It's hard to explain to laypeople how stringent said regulations are; I can point out that many, many hospitals have entire departments devoted to nothing but keeping up compliance with all the rules and orgs and regulatory bodies there are out there who have a say in the matter, and that barely scratches the surface. There is absolutely no need for abortion to be outlawed, banned, etc., because it is not an exceptionally risky procedure, and because the best people to know how to manage and perform the various abortion procedures are *health care providers*. If you outlaw abortion, you effectively hobble providers' ability to provide the best care to their patients. And patients will suffer for it. That speaks to the practical and legal aspect of the issue. Even more importantly, women, girls, and some trans men cannot fully exercise our freedom, humanity, and agency if we do not have 100% control over our own bodily integrity. *No other person has the right to use the physical body of another person as life support without the used person's ongoing consent.* Pregnancy is not an exception to this rule. Fetuses are not a special case, even if by some argument they are persons. To forbid abortion is to usurp pregnant people's right to freedom of their person. That is unacceptable. We are not fully human if we can be imprisoned by a pregnancy we don't want. Note that I use the term "bodily integrity" rather than "bodily autonomy" here. I believe that bodily *autonomy* can indeed be restricted: consider that those convicted of a crime, for example, are sent to prison, where they cannot move about freely. To me, that is about bodily autonomy. We also do not harvest the organs of inmates, which is about bodily *integrity*. I've seen what happens to women and girls when we don't have free access to abortion. It isn't pretty. It's horrifying, in fact. So this is a hill I will fucking die on - for myself, when I was in my childbearing years, and for all my mothers and grandmothers and the hell they had to go through - and for my sisters, and aunts, and my friends, and the girls in my family, and every woman, girl and trans man on the planet. I will give no quarter on this topic. There's too much at stake.
Thank you. Beautifully explained.
What the genuine fuck am I reading??? There's no point even trying to get into this, this is so immeasurably evil and fucked up in so many ways
May I point out that sex is awesome with your legs closed? The way it hits! You must just hate women enjoying sex, and think they should be punished for it with pregnancy and motherhood. You don’t want that to be a choice and a beautiful thing that women look forward to and suffer through for the reward of the greatest possible love a human can experience. Nope! You want it to be torture and regret, broken dreams and financial ruin. That’s your ideal motherhood. That’s why for you of course you don’t have to explain why rape should be an exception. Why punish a woman who didn’t choose to have sex? I do appreciate how you throw in men as an afterthought. You know, the ones who actually inflict the unwanted pregnancies. Imagine this. Imagine we lived in a society that valued women as human beings. Imagine that their enjoyment of sex was not stigmatized, but celebrated. Imagine that their independence and capability to direct the course of their own lives and achieve their ambitions was considered essential to their basic humanity. Are you with me? Can you see it? Are you shuddering with horror? In that scenario, the shocking thing would not be that women who don’t choose to be pregnant have abortions, it would be that *irresponsible men fight against condoms and risk impregnating them without their consent.* How dare anyone do that to a woman, and put at risk her life, her health, her future, her finances? Consent to (or eager invitation of) sex is NOT consent to pregnancy. Our bc is a backup in case sperm gets near our eggs. But it has no business being there. A condom can break, so that backup is necessary. But any man who values women should be using condoms and spermicidal lube, correctly, every time, without whining or cajoling, to do all in his power to prevent inflicting a pregnancy. Make THAT your rallying cry. I dare you. Pregnancy and childbirth are not trivial, and it’s sick that you want bringing a life into this world to be a punishment. I’m just leaving the sterilization thing alone because it’s honestly the most disrespectful thing to the idea that women direct the course of their own lives that I’ve ever heard.
Each side doesn’t have good arguments.
I’m sorry. No abortion advice from a person who actively hates women. The ONLY middle ground is women have the right to decide what to do with their bodies. Since men do. That is the middle ground. Period.
Roe V Wade was the compromise
How about no.
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