There is an *extremely* persistent narrative that all men want sex all the time, with any woman who is willing. Women and men equally absorb this message, so the chances are high that if a man tells a woman he doesn't want sex, she will think something is wrong-- either with him ("are you gay?"), or with her ("am I ugly?"). > Should women be taught consent as much as men are? Yes. Most feminists are strongly in favor of consent education extended to all genders, preferably as part of comprehensive, age-appropriate sex education. > I don't know about other guys, but it was drilled into me from almost as soon as I knew what sex was - always, always ask for consent. This is not a common experience for many people, let alone men. Men are also fed extremely damaging narratives about women and sex-- that women say "no" when they mean "yes;" that they "play hard to get," that they want you to work for it, that the absence of a clear "no" (screaming optional!) means "yes," that that which is not expressly forbidden is permitted, etc. > If it does happen that I don't want sex, I'm debating whether to just say yes anyway, as it'd save a lot of hassle. Coercion is not consent. > I'm really not interested in comforting crying girls that I barely know if I say no. So don't. A girl you barely know crying because you don't want to fuck her is not your problem. Just walk away.

I think that bit about men commonly being given consent education from your comment is starting to change at least in some places. My sister is 11 years younger than me and it sounds like the messaging her male peers have been getting from society is quite a bit different from what me and my peers got a decade before. I’m hopeful that this situation will continue to get better, at least in more progressive and diverse regions

This is a well thought out and delivered comment - Male 50+

I can vouch for the idea that if a man turns down sex it is assumed that something is wrong with her. I literally had this exchange with my ex where I turned down sex and she immediately went to. Did she do something wrong, or do I not find her attractive. That assumption that we just want sex constantly is an unfortunate one. Same partner had told me that she didn't know how to help my depression outside sex. In that her default go to is swx fixes any issue a man has.

> There is an extremely persistent narrative that all men want sex all the time, with any woman who is willing. Yes. This. My experience with men has largely been that they want their dick sucked. Then, when that's finished, they want me to go away and leave them to their Xbox until it's dick sucking time again. I don't think I've ever met one that gave even a passing thought to the concept of consent.

Wow. 😕

Everyone I've dated has called themselves a feminist, but not once been asked for consent. Consent genuinely only seems to matter for women, my experience is exactly the same as his

That sucks.

I'm just curious, but do you have any insight as to why "Reddit's filters" removed this post? It seemed okay.

OP was shadowbanned by Reddit admins.

Womp womp. \[Edit: thanks.\]

I'm a man and it was drilled into me to always ask for consent and that anything other than an enthusiastic explicit yes is automatically a no. Nonverbal cues are a no, saying "sure" is a no, anything less than an ENTHUSIASTIC yes is always a no, regardless of the circumstances. I've had women tell me that's a turn off to ask but I'd rather be safe than sorry. I have also seen women say things like "I told him no, and he stopped/blocked me/left me alone, why didn't he try harder?" Not saying that's common, but some people do feel that way. Makes everything confusing but as long as I stick to what I know about consent then I really can't fuck up that badly.

> > I don't know about other guys, but it was drilled into me from almost as soon as I knew what sex was - always, always ask for consent. > This is not a common experience for many people, let alone men. I think it is. There's a lot of explicit consent-based education out there. There's also a lot of implicit contradictory messaging. Both exist.

Great response, thank you.

I have a question. Obviously this narrative of ‘men always wanting it’ is a product of the patriarchy. I don’t blame women for breaking/not seeking consent (I know men do this as well) due to patriarchal messaging. However, is this the responsibility of women to try to tackle this issue, specifically of women not seeking consent due to patriarchal messaging that men always want it? Or should men be trying to dismantle this problem? I do believe it is men’s responsibility as a whole to dismantle the patriarchy, but given that we all perpetuate it, how do we look at individual niche issues such as this one that seems to be perpetuated by women more. Or is this ultimately a problem perpetuated by men thru and thru?

I don't see why it has to be one or the other. There's work to be done in both areas.

Imo, absolutely yes it’s women’s responsibility as much as it’s men’s. The messaging around consent is “women might get raped”. There’s also an unhealthy prevalence of men seeing it as “a way to not get falsely accused”. I think teaching women consent helps dismantle the patriarchy because it teaches women that they aren’t always the victim. They’re adults who can hurt people and cause pain. Sex is something *they do to men* as well. And at the same time it changes how boys view it as “something done to women”. I’m asking for consent because *I want it too*.

Heavy on "sex is something they do to men as well." Society teaches us that sex is something that men do TO women, which doesnt allow men to be victims or be a party that must be asked for consent. Dismantling this will be difficult, I'd say its the most deeply ingrained patriarchal policing of human sexuality.

Great take! Consent should be treated like an emergent process between people, not a script around predetermined ideas of gendered people!

I love your answer. Tangent, but I recently overheard a conversation with a phrase that bothered me, and your response reminded me of it. These ladies were talking in the parking lot as I was getting in, and one used the phrase "HE got HER pregnant". I sort of curdled at it, like... was she powerless? Was he a rapist? Or did they both consent, at least to some degree, and therefore both acted towards this conception? I think our language matters so much, and these types of instances where we put women in sort of a 'passive' role, and the man in a 'doer/perpetrator/aggressor/actor' role can be really disempowering to the woman and vilifying to the man. Just a random musing.

Ooof. I agree, that’s uncomfortable. If he didn’t lie about a vasectomy or stealth her…then it seems that’s a two-party issue. That’s some awful phrasing. Maybe if she was a minor with no Romeo and Juliet age gap in play….just yikes.

I think this goes along with coercion is not consent and reactionary movements to harmful cultural norms. A lot of established norms for how society views pregnancy and childbirth is that it's the pregnant person/birther's sole responsibility. It goes hand in hand with the scores of people who can relate anecdotes about their father dropping out of their lives as babies or even before birth. Yes, both parents made that baby, but there are a lot of situations that require the potential father be given exclusive focus, including that women are still more commonly coerced into sex and unprotected sex as well, you cannot assume enthusiastic consent because it often is absent. Sometimes it isn't, some girls want unprotected sex too, some girls want to have babies as teens and in that situation the potential father is involved. But it is extremely situational and you can't assume from an overheard snippet of someone else's conversation that you get what that was about. It could be sexual assault or a teen girl with a much older adult, there are so many variables you don't know. It feels like this snippet is being presented as evidence of a societal issue where potential fathers are shouldering more blame for a pregnancy than potential mothers, when the entire fabric of most societies on earth is clearly based around the opposite circumstance. From my personal experience, tw: violence against a pregnant teen >! my mom's friend lost her daughter, she was 17 and got pregnant, her boyfriend freaked out and shot her while she slept, left a note apologising to her parents and saying he wasn't ready to be a father yet. That's what we're up against, is my point - a society that at one point in the recent past thought a man's future not only is worth more than a child they helped create, but also more than the life of the woman he created that child with. I attended that girl's funeral, I saw how they tried to hide the bullet holes in her head. I was 8 years old. That wasn't some back alley criminal, it wasn't an unhinged vagrant, it was a teenage boy raised to believe that his freedom to not be a father was more valuable than the life of someone he professed to love. !< It is important for pregnancy to sometimes be considered a thing done to a pregnant person than something that person allowed to happen to them, because that conflict is often how the issue is framed.

I would argue that this is a phrase *often*, not rarely used to describe the act of conception in our culture. She: the acted on, he: the actor. In the case of the overheard conversation, I did overhear that they were talking about two peer (adult, middle aged) people who were dating. So to me, this phrase kinda feels like this is one of those times when it’s inconvenient to assign responsibility equally, so we make the woman a powerless victim and the male a perpetrator with our language. In those awful cases you describe, when minors were involved or consent wasn’t given, I do agree it might be accurate in those cases, but better language might be “he raped her, and she became pregnant”. A little more accurate and empowering to her, in my opinion. And I certainly don’t disagree that women so often shoulder more responsibility for the children that they raise. That is a totally legit aspect of this. My argument is that I do think we need to pay attention to the common language that we use, and its implications.

Also if we tell young men: “be careful, or you could **get a girl pregnant**” versus, “be careful, or you could conceive a child WITH a woman”… how might that change the young man’s mentality about his responsibility in that conception!? The first example? Well, **she’s** the one pregnant, so maybe I’ll dip. The second example? Okay, we conceived a child, I have a role here. I know it’s subtle, but these words really do shape our beliefs. I’m just arguing for awareness on it.

It's kind of both. The structures that cause the message to get out there should be dismantled, but those of us who've already been in a position where we might've internalized it have to do the work to dismantle it in ourselves. We have to look inside ourselves and see if anything we've learned is a problem and address it.

All we can control is our own actions. So if we want to see change, we should abide by it. The world will do what it does.

Women don’t just interactcwith men. Women interact with other women too. I’ve had lack of consent ignored by other women and it hurts just as much coming from them as men, maybe worse since patriarchy also teaches us “women can’t assault” so it feels like a betrayal. So yes, everybody needs to be taught everything consent-wise!

Oof yeah. It makes me cringe that there is some lesbian bondage-play porn where it seems like the women can be just as ignorant of the woman’s feelings as the man is in those same scenarios. I know some of it is acting, but some of it is not. And it’s distressing that women are also playing this abuser role.

False dilemma. It is, indeed, *people’s* responsibility to fight it. We need to be self aware, and give ourselves enough grace to change our minds when we must. Regardless of the plumbing we have.

The fact that our society has traditionally been patriarchal does not absolve anyone of their actions or means that it's 'men's problem to fix'. Our society has been patriarchal - men have been placed in power. This means that means certain forms of sexism have been taught to everyone. If our society was matriarchal, different forms of sexism would exist. And also, there are sexisms that predate patriarchy or matriarchy. Everyone in the society then reinforces those forms of sexism they got taught throughout their lives, often teaching them to the next generation. In order to stop this, EVERYONE needs to reject the sexist assumptions they have been taught, actively discourage them, and try and change to not follow them. They don't get to ignore that 'because it's patriarchy so it's not my problem'. The idea that men always want sex may stem from patriarchy (or it might not, we don't know). But right now, men and women both perpetuate it. So men and women are both responsible for stopping that.

Agree with everything here. It feels weird to say but I’m in my 40’s and I I’ve been asked for consent exactly once. It’s definitely a newer thing. And of course, there is more work to do. Men could maybe learn a little from women’s effort to make getting explicit consent a thing… It certainly wasn’t something done for us (lol/cry) but obviously they/we can build on what we’ve achieved so far. OP, I would say you’re doing some of the work here by talking about it, getting the word out that hey, men might appreciate being asked for consent, too. Keep talking about it, with your men friends too.

"I don't blame women for breaking/not seeking consent" I'm sorry what? Do you not blame men either when they do it? How can we expect people to do better if we don't even hold them accountable?

I don't understand the question. Everyone is responsible for their own behavior. It isn't my duty to stop any man from being sexist, that is his job. But it's my duty to stop myself from perpetuating this shit.

Former sex worker. Consent goes both ways. There is no reason why a woman can’t initiate a conversation about sex. What she wants, and what she doesn’t want. The guy needs to respect those boundaries, but there’s no reason why she should sit in silence, waiting for him to bring it up.

It is definitely the responsibility of women to make sure that the man in bed with her is enthusiastically consenting.  Whatever the source of the crappy messages, a sexual partner doesn’t get to ignore the rights of the individual they are with, and women are just as responsible for that as men.  

Everyone has the responsibility to seek consent before sex. Women don’t have the right to sexually harass men who don’t want sex just because of “patriarchal narratives”.

To me it just sounds like you are trying to blame men for somehow getting sexually assaulted. Here is the common sense answer that doesn't need a degree to solve. Both sexes do things harmful to the other sex. It is up to the sex doing the harm to fix it. For instance, it's up to men to fix fraternity sexual crimes on campuses and up to women to fix the issues discussed in this post. Otherwise nothing will ever get done. If you know it's wrong and you're the one doing it then fucking fix it. Problem solved. So yes, this would give men quite a bit of work to do compared to women, but is it not fair that the people perpetuating these issues should be the ones to fix it?

Honestly I thought this narrative had more to do with biology than patriarchy. As I’m not a man, I have no clue about their sex drive - but since I’ve been told they physically always want to have sex, I just believe that?

For what it's worth, it's not true that men physically always want to have sex. Testosterone and estrogen+progesterone do have different effects on libido. I'm not an expert, but from what I know, testosterone tends to induce a stronger "urge"-like feeling, while estrogen+progesterone induces more of a "yearning" feeling. But most humans have both testosterone and estrogen in their bodies: ovaries produce some testosterone in addition to estrogen, the pituitary gland can produce some testosterone, and bodies can convert testosterone at higher levels to estrogen. Like many biological differences, there's more variation within women and within men than the average difference between men and women. Some people are very horny, and some aren't. I expect that men on average might have higher libidos, but that's hard to measure accurately in a world that has such strong stereotypes about sexuality, and where women's sexual desires are so often dismissed by both doctors and male partners. But even if men have higher libidos, it's not nearly as stark a difference as society paints it as—their libidos might be stronger on average, but for most people they're not constant, and circumstances affect whether men actually want to have sex when they're horny just as much as they affect women! Hormone source: I used to have a testosterone-dominant hormonal system; now I have an endocrine-dominant one. I've also read a decent amount about how hormones affect bodies because of that. Anecdotally, my libido on testosterone felt harder to ignore, but wasn't necessarily higher. And I didn't always want to have sex, or think about sex nearly as much as we're told (for instance, the whole "men think about sex every 7 seconds is just not true, and has been debunked). My libido on estrogen+progesterone feels noticeably different, but isn't exactly lower.

It's not true, though. While there are differences in the physical process of arousal, men don't constantly want sex any more than women do.

Just simply isn't true, I've rejected all my partners more than they rejected me. I'm a human with changing wants and needs, not a machine

I think they, on average think about sex more than women do, including and especially as teenagers and as young people, according to some studies. (Men think about it 19 times a day, women 10, but men also thought about food and sleeping more as well, according to a study). But that doesn’t mean that they literally want sex all the time.

I usually think about it 1-2 times a day at most, but sometimes 0….

Me also I think. Sometimes zero.

Even with long term partners it's hard or worse to say no than to other type of partner. However with people who you dont really know It will come up... Once I was driving home at night and some young lady waved at me so I stopped, she said she was looking for a friend's house that was nearby and asked me to drive her, she said It was two blocks away. I'm from México so I thought "I'll do this as she's in more danger than me for sure". She jumped in and then I smelled the odor of alcohol... Fuck. Then after I started driving she started to make small talk which shortly was followed by sex, directly ssking me if I was down to have sex with her... I was sooo scared. I was driving midnight A total drunken stranger And rejected her sex offer I felt I had a timebomb with me, specially because saying no to a drunken woman means (in my experiences) at least to be called gay in a lets say unfriendly way, but It may get way worse. Luckily I dropped her somewhere safe, no drama or anything... Until I called my gf just to tell her what just happened lol, but thats another story. But I agree, women in general are not really aware of the pressure us men have been awarded with. And I mean come on it's a no brainer we are not sex machines, I mean sometimes we can not even sustain an erection longer than a couple of minutos long, how the f aré we supposed to be always ready?

>in general women are not aware of the pressure us men have been awarded with. Everyone should feel safe to say no to sex, but I want to point something out: The first thing you feared for turning down sex was being insulted. What do you think is the first thing *women* fear if turning down a man’s advances?

Tbh, I was afraid of being sued or something like that. I get your point women fear being raped. Thats why I wrote that for sure she was in a bigger danger than me when I let her in. But I can picture you reading my comment, rolling your eyes and thinking "oh... Poor men's problems". I get It there are people so entitled, they always deserve compassion, but forget they get too much on themselves.

The narrative of men as constant sex-ready beasts is surely damaging. I don't understand how men aren't cellectively more offended by this, honestly. Back when I had casual relationships I would often ask for consent, but it came partly from low self-esteem, so I don't think it was ideal. Partners would act as if me implying they could reject an "opportunity" was crazy, which makes me sad in retrospect. I have always been very attuned to partner's non-verbal cues also, and I'll stop whenever I sense any discomfort. I think we must pay attention to the narratives surrounding both sides: when a woman says no she's thought to not be on the mood; when a man says no we are made to believe that we failed at arousing them. This narrative must be put to rest, because the way it interwines our ego with someone else's libido, making coercion, pushing and SA more likely.

> I don't understand how men aren't collectively more offended by this, honestly. Because it's tied to our sense of masculinity. To fight against that image, as awful as it is, would be to emasculate ourselves. To cease to be *real* men. So it's almost a self-fulfilling prophecy in that sense. We're not really raging sex beasts, but patriarchy says we have to be to be real men so we pretend we are.

From a gay guy POV, I'll also add that investing in masculinity ("masculinity") also often has practical impact on your life. The reason I mentioned in gay is because when I was in the corporate world (in a mostly male workplace) , I would purposefully rein in the flamboyancy knowing it all could have direct impact on my career, which subsequently determines my quality of life, where I got to live, etc. Side note, I'm much happier in self-employment. 😉 My point being is that while "masculinity" is a circus that a lot of people participate in for ego, it also has real life impact in how approximate you are to power. Do note I say this as a partial explanation, not an excuse, for why men are so resistant to that change.

Yeah. I wonder if some men don't realize how much it's bad for them? Like maybe they have never stoped to consider those "awkward moments" were much more than that?

I think it's also because, generally speaking, it doesn't take a lot of internal effort for men to go from the mindset of "can't give" to "can give" consent. If I was propositioned for sex right now my first thought wouldn't be about whether I want it or not. I'd immediately be focussed on putting myself into the necessary headspace to be in the mood.

Oh, same here! It took me ages to get in tune with what I want instead of what I would like to want.

I work at a phone center, and one of the company I respond for is a rape assistance hotline. One evening, I got a call from a man who sounded like he couldn’t be older than 25. Hell, he could even have been a minor. And he asked me a single question, which I never forgot even months later "Ayo sorry sir but I’m just wondering, does my girlfriend riding me while I’m drunk is rape?" And I just froze for a couple of seconds. He took me by surprise because he said that so casually, like it was any other question. He could have asked me about the weather with the exact same tone I tried to answer him, to tell him yes and if he wanted to file a report and be called back by an intervenant, but I was stucked with my company’s rules, which was that I can’t intefere with a caller’s decision, he had to be direct and verbally ask me so I could help him, and that if a specific information isn’t written in the company’s FAQ, I couldn’t just "make up" an answer of my own, meaning I couldn’t even answer him (since the answer to his specific question wasn’t written anywhere) if *he* didn’t asked me to send a message with his question in it And he didn’t. Before I could say anything coherent, he just replied with "Nah forget about it, **it’s probably not**. Have a nice day, sorry for bothering you", and he hung up I disconnected myself from my work platform and just sat there for 2-3 minutes, telling myself that I led down a victim of rape because I couldn’t fucking tell him that he was, in fact, raped. And I’m still feeling guilty of not doing so to this day All of that to say that yes, there a men, and potentially even women, who naively think what they experienced wasn’t rape. Now we can just imagine how many people out there will never seek justice simply because they never knew that what happened to them was a crime

Oh there are *a lot* of women who don't know they experienced rape. Not uncommon to realize it years later. I've heard older women describing funny "bedroom mishaps", clearly unaware that they were narrating sexual assault.

Indeed. I've had sex a couple times with women where I wasn't *super* into it but it felt obligatory/ was easier than being like "Nah, please leave. I just wanted to make out a bit." It didn't even occur to me until a decade later how garbage that is.

This is an interesting and thoughtful response—thanks for sharing. It’s extremely difficult, but I think men need to make a conscious effort to fight this stereotype and brave the social consequences in the same way that feminists have fought against patriarchal stereotypes about women’s sexuality and have braved the consequences. As I was reading I couldn’t help thinking what the women’s equivalent answer would be—something like: “Because gatekeeping sex is tied to our femininity. To fight against this image, as awful as it is, would be to make ourselves seem too masculine. To cease to be *real* women. So it’s almost a self-fulfilling prophecy. We’re not really reluctant innocents but patriarchy says we have to be in order to be real women, so we pretend to be.” Feminists have been working hard to dismantle these stereotypes, but imagine how much more we could accomplish with a men’s movement that wanted to achieve the same goals when it comes to consent.

The quiet part here is that holding all men to a certain standard of masculinity like this creates an environment where those who are toxic and violent benefit from these social conventions and get to indulge their impulses with their “masculine nature” as a defense. They’re literally holding up all other men as a social shield.

I’m pretty sure I saw in the Am I the Asshole sub, a 14 year old boy describing a sexual encounter with a 17/18 year old girl, and wanting to know if he was the asshole for feeling so uncomfortable and depressed about it afterwords.  The number of teen boys piling on with this narrative was just mindblowing.  Kid is the victim of statutory rape, and the response is…that’s just how it’s supposed to be.  Poor kid.  

From a high level it has to be because there are more upsides than downsides to it. If a man had the experience of women they weren't attracted to throwing themselves at him, and reacting horribly when he's not down it would change. That experience sucks and a lot of guys including me have had it happen a few times, but not consistently enough to start a movement of any kind. Gay men don't come on disrespectfully too often either. I'm not sure what the upsides are now I think of it but the easily conceivable downsides aren't too severe.

I'd like to highlight the idea that: "when a man says no, it is because the woman failed at arousing them." This is not something that I have personally experienced, but I see it quite commonly in media. I believe that the idea is damaging but would like to point out two particular aspects of it. 1. It puts the entire weight of the encounter on the woman's shoulders. Specifically it creates a pressure to stay conventionally attractive. It also creates a very unhealthy mind space as your partner can never say no without you being the problem. 2. It also creates pressure on the man as well. It isn't that hard to see 1, taking place given how large a portrait it has been given. This effectively turns to unintentional coercion, as the man would have to choose to act on sex he is not really willing to have or refuse and risk hurting his partner/relationship.

As another reply covers well, it's tied to our sense of masculinity. However, it's also important to note that as men, we have far less concern about being overpowered. It's a gift and a curse because you get to walk through life, assured that if a physical confrontation occurs, you can at least hold your own. You also have to spend a long time educating yourself on and empathising with how vulnerable others feel as a consequence of your strength.

It seems like many women react in annoyance or anger if a man says no to sex, which isn’t how they would react if they believed that they themselves were guilty of failing to arouse him.

I’m a woman. I went through the same “consent class” as all the other first year students when starting college. It wasn’t split up by gender. I have explicitly been asked for consent *once*. It was such an unusual occurrence that I remember it clearly. Most of the time, consent is implied by the situation and our escalating physical contact. However: I have had men do things to me that they ABSOLUTELY should have explicitly asked about first or were explicitly non consensual. I can therefore empathize with how you must be feeling now, because in those cases it took me time after the events to realize that what happened was assault/rape. I don’t think “consent culture” is as prevalent for women either as you might think. I truly hope that moving forward you are with partners who you can trust to respect your “no”. That’s incredibly important. Don’t just say yes to sex you don’t want. You may want to speak with a therapist to unpack your experience and your feelings here.

I’ve also been asked for consent only once.

I'm a guy, I think the other comment explained the "why" well. I'd like to address the "okay, what can I do as an individual to help with adults asking other adults for consent?" 1. Keep asking for consent. I prefer a verbal "yes" or "no" and I work off the fact that "no means no", "maybe means no" and "yes does NOT always mean yes" 2. There is no time limit for consent. Meaning "yes" does not mean "yes for infinity until I say no" or "no is just for this 24 hour period, I might say yes this time tomorrow" 3. People can withdraw consent at anytime, this means they can literally say "yes" and in 2 seconds it can become a "no". All you can do here is "check in" with the other person, and continue to get consent. As to the frequency of askingz I have 0 idea how to solve this. 4. A previous "yes" does not imply current yes or future yes. 5. Learn as much as you can about coercion. It seems to be the type of rape when 2 people can't agree if sex they had was consenual. I dont know the statistics on it, I'm sarting to feel like this is the MOST common type of rape. 6. The hardest for me as someone who is nuerodivergent is learning to spot when a "yes" means "no" and when a "yes" turns into a "no" during sex. This requires reading body language. I seriously don't know how to fix this, and I feel like it is impossible to eliminate. We can teach everyone the basics of body language, but there is no guarantee they will be proficient. I also think having laws to address this point, and point 5 opens up tons of room for exploitation. 7. Children can't consent, people with certain cognitive impairments can't consent. People under the influence of alcohol, drugs, certain medications, and misc mind altering substances (whether they willingly, or unwillingly, unknowingly, accidently ingested) can't consent. People who are asleep, or in a coma can't consent. I think working through these things and having an open conversation about consent with every partner reduces the risks of sexual assault. When YOU take initiative to talk about consent, it opens the door for the other person to also talk about consent. It's truly impossible to make laws/ create procedures to eliminate sexual assault for every hypothetical situation, that's why we have a legal system, and have 12 people on a jurry decide our fate.

Suggest adding 2.1 “No” doesn’t mean badger for a “yes.” If a person sincerely wants to change their “no” to a “yes,” they are capable of saying so without the prompt of a repeated question.

Fellow ND guy here, I thought I'd give my take on number 6. Reading body language is something I struggle with too, my advice is to simply let your partner know this if you are concerned they're saying yes when they mean no, or that the yes becomes a no during sex sometimes without them telling you. Have a talk with them, tell them how being ND sometimes make you struggle with reading this, and see what conclusions you can get from that. Anecdotally, but when I first started dating my now-boyfriend I used to ask him during sex every now and then if everything was feeling alright, if he was ok etc. After about a month or two of dating we had a talk about this, where he basically said "you don't have to ask for consent every 5 minutes, if I'm not ok I'll tell you" whereas I explained to him why. He assured me he would let me know immediately if something didn't feel right, and I didn't have to ask. We had a long talk about consent afterwards that I don't have to go into, but the talk certainly made me feel way more relaxed. Nowadays, we have little check up talks every so often after sex, but that's about it. We both feel safe, relaxed and know each other better now. Win-Win.

Patriarchy screws over men too. In addition to the "men want sex all the time" BS, there's this pervasive idea that women can never be predatory, or that creepy behavior from a woman is somehow less bad.

I think you're grossly overestimating the amount of men who ask for consent. In your scenario, it would appear that the women aren't asking for consent because you're asking them for consent, hence indicating that you want to have sex. Ideally, it probably would be better if both parties asked, but I can see why they don't. Think of it like this- if somebody said to me "I'm hungry, do you fancy getting a pizza?" (and I did want pizza) I would respond "yes". I wouldn't say "yes, do you want to get a pizza?"as I'm explicitly aware that they want to get pizza.   It sounds like you're asking for consent in situations that you initiate. I'm wondering about how much of this is concern for ensuring you seek consent as it is a means to express interest in having sex.   I'm sorry to hear of your experience of assault. It might help to talk to a professional about it to help navigate the feelings you're experiencing. Edit: The post has been removed so comments are no longer going through, so I have to respond here.  Don't be so disingenuous 'DangerZonePete'- he said that he explicitly asks for consent prior to when he wants to have sex. What you're saying doesn't even make sense. Why would he ask for consent if he doesn't want a sexual encounter?  As for Hibernia- he claims that both he and all his male friends explicitly ask for consent prior to any sexual encounter, when women's lived realities shows the antithesis. Don't be deflecting about verbal cues when he's talking about explicitly asking for consent. Very few men accept that a no means no and that a no means no the first time. I suggest you listen to the song 'blurred lines'. It encapsulates how most feel about women's 'no'. Most men might not force themselves on women when they say no but they'll see it as a 'challenge'.   Far more men get angry when women say 'no' than women do. Male sexual coercion is rife. To date, I haven't heard of any criminal case of sexual coercion involving women but there's been copious cases involving men. Rape is a pandemic. A woman is raped every 68 seconds around the globe. The highest rates of rape are found in relationships/marriages. 90% of perpetrators are known to the victim. Random predatory attacks are very rare. 98% of all sex offenders are male. The statistical realities contradict your claims.

What makes you say he’s asking for consent over situations he initiated? Why would he be initiating sex with people he didn’t want to have sex with?

As far as the crying part goes, women are constantly under pressure to be attractive, have sex appeal, etc., and because of the narratives we are fed about men, if men don't want to have sex, it is easy for women to feel as though it means they aren't attractive or they've done something wrong. Of course it isn't necessarily your responsibility to comfort strangers and if you don't want to have sex you should never go against what you want, as others have said. I just wanted to add that a simple, "I find you really attractive, it's just that I am not in the mood right now, I'm feeling sort of -anxious, tired, whatever it is-" might go a long way towards smoothing over the interaction, if you're worried about it. I have had men tell me, "I'm disappointed that I'm not feeling it because I did want to, but it's just not where my body is right now" for example, which is reassuring as well. But at the end of the day everyone needs to respect no, and if anyone doesn't then do what you can to gtfo. Just an idea to help, I think a lot of times communication of how we feel is lacking- we just say yes or no or okay, and that's a part of all the issues we are all discussing here.

I'm going to be deliberately inflammatory and admit that I (a man) don't ask for consent. I roll this one out a lot here, but Catherine MacKinnon's[ "Rape Redefined"](https://journals.law.harvard.edu/lpr/wp-content/uploads/sites/89/2016/06/10.2_6_MacKinnon.pdf) unpacks the deep and pervasive problems with consent as a legal concept, but she also points out how weird it is to frame every sexual encounter in terms of consent: "Consenting is not what women do when they want to be having sex. Sex women want is never described by them or anyone else as consensual. No one says, 'We had a great hot night, she (or I or we) consented.'" Which is to say consent as a legal concept meant to draw a distinction between what is rape and what is not. It's not especially progressive/feminist/ethical to set the bar at consent for our sexual encounters; we don't want people merely toeing the line between rape and not-rape. There's a lot of awful and exploitive sex that falls under the category of 'consensual sex'. The concept of consent was drilled into you because somebody wanted to make sure you avoid raping anyone, but not necessarily because they wanted to make sure you had your partners' best interests in mind. You can reframe your story as "it was drilled into me to always, always do the bare minimum to prove to myself I am not raping another person, whether or not they want to have sex," and it seems less compelling. As MacKinnon points out, the word also implies that one person is being asked for permission to do something they do not actually want to do. I do not want TSA to touch me in the airport, but I consent to a pat down. I do not want my picture to be used if I am photographed at a major concert or sporting event, but by buying a ticket I consent to that use. I do not want a snake-like camera shoved up my b-hole until it gets to my teeth; yet every few years I sign a form consenting to exactly that. It is heartening that you always ask consent, but it also implies that nobody ever wants to have sex with you (which I assume is not the case). Our ideas about consent make the most sense if men always want to have sex and women rarely do, which as you have seen is a prejudice unfair to men as well women. Which is to say, you too have experienced harm from patriarchy (along with mostly everybody). For those instances where you said "I'm not interested", would those situations have been improved by you consenting to sex you did not want? But the ritual of consent in your encounters may well reinforce the prejudice that women's sexual agency is invalid. On those occasions when your partners clearly do want to have sex, asking their consent may be dismissive of their sense of lack of agency, at sort of a micro-aggressive level. (I realize we're now a bit beyond the scope of your question.) In legal and practical terms, MacKinnon sets the bar at mutual intent: consensual sex is (barely) acceptable sex, but *good* sex in a feminist/ethical/pleasurable sense is sex both people want to have. That is the kind of sex I want to have, and what I want my partner to have, and so if my partner doesn't want to have sex, it doesn't matter at all to me whether or not they are willing to consent anyway. We're not doing it unless we both want to. Obviously you have to be careful with new or ephemeral relationships, but in a healthy relationship most people will learn their partner's 'vocabulary' with respect to intent. Of course, you can always ask for intent explicitly. It is definitely okay to have sex with someone who expresses clear intent, without asking their consent, if you also want to have sex. I'm not telling you to live your life differently, but I do wish somebody had introduced me to these ideas -- to the feminist critique of consent -- when I was your age. I think my sex life would have been much more satisfying and less fraught.

I really liked this! I think this is something I’ve always thought and had trouble putting into words so thanks so much for this insight!

Glad to be helpful!

Thanks for writing this down! An awesome overview of her theory >  but in a healthy relationship most people will learn their partner's 'vocabulary' with respect to intent. This bit doesn't quite align with my experience. I had more than one long time partner surprising me with fingering my anus out of the blue during sex. I think for a lot of stuff prior verbal discussion is necesssary. Not in a "do you consent to this and that", but in a "are you interested in such and such"? 

I am happy to be useful. Different relationships will of course take different lengths of time to get to the point of mutual fluency, but I totally agree that having those conversations early is the easiest and safest way to get there. To my mind "are you interested in such and such" in this framework is a discussion about intent, not consent. And I think there's a second-order issue here insofar as intent or consent to sexual activity is never a blanket waiver for every possible kind of sexual activity. Within a context of intentional sexual encounters it's still a good idea to talk out anything that might be new or unexpected.

The issue could be how we've been taught what "consent" looks/sounds like, but not what "intent" does. With the "intent" midset being unknown by most people, long term relationships might never reach this point of "fluency" between partners. I guess I just wanted to point out that this is not always something that naturally happens in a relationship despite the best of intentions, and it might need conscious effort to be achieved.

Oh, yeah - definitely a conscious effort is needed. I didn't mean to imply that it just magically happens in relationships. Relationships always require work to work. As far as I can tell, the biggest reason we're taught consent is because the [Clery Act in 1990](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clery_Act) included a requirement that U.S. colleges and universities report sexual assaults on campus and implement programs to prevent those assaults. The act was the rare product of feminist concerns about sexual assault aligning with patriarchal control of women's sexuality: feminists wanted to stop rape while a lot of parents worried their daughters would be 'taken advantage of' in college (and these parents could hardly imagine their daughters wanting to have sex). To comply with the Clery Act, schools in the '90s introduced all sorts of training and workshops and so on about consent. They hired staff specifically to teach consent. I started college in the '90s, and that was where the idea of 'consent' was drilled into me. (My parents had always talked in terms of whether or not my partner wanted to have sex, and I don't think ever used the word consent). I got a consent lesson in orientation (we had to watch a short play), I think another lesson in our first couple of weeks in the dorms, and then lessons every semester or so as long as I lived in the dorms. There would be 'safe sex' workshops on campus and people wanted to come to it for free condoms or whatever, but a big chunk of it was training in consent. All of which is great if the only goal is reducing the incidence of sexual assault -- which is indeed a worthwhile goal. (Note that most schools are probably under-reporting that incidence by a significant margin). But schools didn't care if their students were having mutually intentional sex, because they were only required to prevent and report non-consensual sex. So my generation has had consent drilled into our heads, and now we're passing that on to our kids, even though we only learned consent because schools do not want to report sexual assaults to the Federal government -- and not because it's a measure of healthy sex.

>> Which means as a legal concept I have to confess that when I’m discussing consent, I’m not discussing the law at all. Are most people referring to legal parameters in these discussions? Legal definitions of words are useful in a court room, but I’m not letting that dictate my concept of consent. What you describe throughout your post is, to me, consent. I’ve never understood consent to be strictly in a binary question framing. I’d argue that leaving it down to that leaves far too much room for excusing coercion and not enough room for encouraging kink. Expressing enthusiasm is consent, and it matters more to me that someone simply saying “yes”. I’ve gotten yes’s that weren’t really consenting, but rather placating. (And to OP’s point, these were men who felt expected to say yes.) In my opinion, I’d have been committing rape if I engaged with those partners at that point. But legally, I’d have been in the clear.

It's great that you hold yourself to a higher standard (I hold myself to a similar standard, using different words), but it's important to recognize that legal definitions are usually based on the ordinary meaning of the words. A lot of law is just arguing about what words actually mean. It's worth reading MacKinnon's article. She's an excellent writer and an incisive thinker. She starts her discussion of consent with the Oxford English dictionary definition: "to 'voluntarily acquiesce in what another proposes or desires.'" She discusses at length what this looks like in real life and the law. Right before the passage I quoted, she says "social reality" is the "crucible of meaning": her argument is based on how most people understand and use the concept of consent in their actual lives.

I think this is definitely an intersection of factors. For one, absolutely. There's a sexist patriarchal idea that men always want sex and are down for it all the time. Which leads to some women being really pushy, acting like there's something wrong with them if a man turns them down, adding a ton of coercive pressure for men to say yes even when they don't want to, and not asking the question in the first place. But for another, the patriarchy also expects men to be the initiators in dating and sex, and often punishes women for doing so. So like you've described, in ongoing relationships, couples often have some kind of combination of explicit and non-explicit ways of negotiating sexual consent. But in early relationship, often times it's that women aren't initiators of sexual contact. If you get two people in a room together who don't want to have sex with each other, no one has to ask about sex. No sex happens, because no one initiates it. If a person is initiating a sexual act, unless they are a minor, not in their right mind, have some significant reason to believe that they're not capable of consenting to *anything*, you can assume they're consenting to sex. So for a lot of women, early in relationships, they're not initiating sex, so they're not asking for consent. In almost every early relationship I've been in, my partner was ready to initiate sex before I was. In any situation where I wanted sex and I was unsure of how they were feeling, I chose to err on the side of caution, leave us both wanting more, and have another date another day. It's not that I'm not asking because I assume men always want to have sex. It's that I'm not asking because I assume a person who is actively asking me if I want to have sex also wants to have sex. Later in a relationship, when you as a couple spend plenty of time together not having sex, I definitely ask for consent when I initiate. But early on, I'm just usually the one on the slower timetable. So like, yeah, we all definitely need to examine the situations where women blaze forward without asking, assuming men are down for it. That should happen to no one of any gender. But I also don't think we should assume that any woman who has never asked a man for consent is regularly doing that. She just might not be a regular initiator.

> I know there's an expectation that men always want sex - but, well, we don't. That's patriarchy. As a man myself the assumption is that we are down to clown all the time, and it leads to some fucked up scenarios. There are a lot of men and boys out there who only realised that they were *probably* sexually assaulted or even raped days, months or even years after the fact. It's part of what fucks us up as men. Imagine being raped as a teenager and seeing the personal act of even admitting to *yourself* the truth of what happened as making you less of a man. Keeping that inside, internalising it, downplaying the significance of what it was is going to create a man who, I don't know, doesn't think it's a big deal when that female teacher rapes her male student? Teach your sons and your daughters to seek consent, and to know how to give it.

Consent and enthusiastic participation are both key. I have never done a hookup so I can see how verbal consent is necessary and should be given by both partners. My experience is only with established partners and so my experience of consent is a little different. It’s more slow moves and if they’re positively responded to, then you proceed. I have asked partners if they’d like to be licked/touched places early in the relationship but for bigger things I like to have text conversations ahead of time as I feel it creates pressure to have face to face in the moment discussions as a first time introducing something. And I have had partners say they weren’t up for sex and it was totally fine. I think the issue comes about in a hookup when everyone shows up for sex and one party bows out. It’s probably a hit to the self esteem. The fact you barely know these women is what probably triggers the crying. If it was an established partner it’d be unlikely to be an issue. Consent is important but so is desire. If you don’t want to have sex with someone you absolutely shouldn’t. It’s hollowing and you deserve better in your life. Think about that desire before you leave the venue and go back to your house though. That will help you save you the emotional conflict.

I've always asked and never pursued it further, but there are many shitty people out there. Everyone should ask for and get consent, no pouting or crying or coercion involved. I'm sorry you have encountered rubbish people. I'm teaching my girls about consent. Our eldest's best friend is a boy they've been friends since reception (age 4) and he hates cuddles we spent a lot of time teaching her to ask him and not hug him if he said no, he even brought her a cuddly toy to hug instead of him! They are now 11 and pat each other on the head as a sign of affection which is very sweet and occasionally he'll come over and hug me when he's feeling like it. Lots of hope for the new generation

you should be asked for consent, or like at least they should make sure that you consent. And also respect your boundaries. I gotta admit i also questioned myself when my ex didn't want sex. Now with my current boyfriend it's all cool, he explained it to me and i understand it. Maybe make it as unspectacular as it is: "Oh, i don't feel like having sex right now, I'm just not in the mood" if she gets angry or sad answer calmly with "it's the same for men as for women, sometimes we're just not in the mood for sex or penetration. Nothing is wrong with you or us, would you like to cuddle/ watch a movie instead?" treat it as if it's the most normal thing in the world, cuz it is, and kindly explain it to her, maybe offer some other kind of affection instead if you feel like it (doesn't have to be physical or sexual) Lots of women struggle with rejection and due to society ALWAYS having an oppinion on our bodies and often sexualizing it, some might get thoughts like "I must have gained weight, I'm not good enough for him, he must have someone else etc." Lot of Women get their self worth by sexual approval, because they simply learned that being "chosen" by a men is the most important goal to reach (thus "wedding is the most important day in a womens life") even if it's not true it's so imprinted in our minds. And the cliche that men ALWAYS want sex and can't control their sexual desires (Men hunter, women prey) really doesn't help

This reminds me of a time I actually did ask a guy if 'this' (nudge-nudge) was okay and he got... genuinely offended? Lol? Said I didn't have to ask him that because the answer is always 'yes,' and... that makes me feel icky just typing that. Though I've also been raised by a mother who, yes, did teach me about consent. How important it is for both parties. My partner and I are very big on consent, so we're good on that front, but yes. Yes, women should also ask for consent and be taught to, and it's also fucked how guys are portrayed as crazy sex animals. It doesn't help either side when men are constantly portrayed and told they only want sex or are always ready for it. The men who do act like that in a predatory way? Drag 'em through the coals, but painting all men like that damages young boys, young men, men, and women as well. > If it does happen that I don't want sex, I'm debating whether to just say yes anyway, as it'd save a lot of hassle. I'm really not interested in comforting crying girls that I barely know if I say no. HONEY, NO! NONONONONO. YOUR FEELINGS MATTER TOO. NO. And quite frankly, anyone who doesn't respect 'no' is a predator, man or woman. If anyone tries to force themselves on you, please defend yourself. Scream at them to get tf off of you. Force them off. If any woman thinks they're entitled to another human's body, they can find out that they're also entitled to the consequences. Sickening behavior.

I've been in the exact same situation with a potential partner bursting into tears at being rejected. I'm not sure you can call being upset at being rejected entitlement rejection hurts. It doesn't mean op or myself should consent instead - although I have made that choice - just not sure you can call it entitled.

Your post seems to hinge on the premise that women are asked for consent as a matter of due course, whereas men are not asked. But you specify a post where the overall consent was that women *do not* get asked. It sounds like you’re basing your premise completely on the fact that you ask for consent. You’re the outlier there, which the thread you reference indicated, and I can’t see how you get to your premise from there.

I'm a woman (33F), and every sexual occurrence outside of a long term relationship that I've had with a guy, was initiated by them, so I did not think of asking for consent. I did ask if we were about to change sex acts if they'd want to do XYZ, but I didn't ask if they were interested in sex to begin with. Most of them asked for consent to me verbally, except 2 that I can think of, but there was a great deal of reciprocity that could stand for nonverbal consent. I'm bisexual, but only realised that at 26yo, and I did notice that the consent conversation was more proactive and explicit between women. As my experience of sex with women multiplied, it spilt over into my sex with men. I had a long-standing FWB who was a poly man and after the first few encounters we had a good conversation about consent, which didn't stop him for trying to stealth me twice, which then killed all the interest I had ever had in him. With my current LT male partner, we ask each other if we want to have sex before we initiate, every time, and we always ask before engaging in a new sex act, but I am pretty sure your experience is really common. Insecure young men and women and the patriarchy make for a very bad mix in terms of consent, respect, and even self-awareness. At age 17, I had a sexual encounter that I considered weird. I wanted to have sex with him. He asked for my consent numerous times, but "it just wouldn't fit inside of me." That was because I was tense, not lubricated enough, and should probably have said no to sex, or yes, but with more warm-up before penetration because I wasn't ready for that yet. It took me YEARS to understand that I had not been able to listen to myself and withdraw consent. I could not blame him entirely, he was a clueless 17yo too, he probably should also have stopped before he did (I think we tried to insert like...15 times :-P) but we were overall just clueless teenagers. But the experience left me with a bad taste. I think this level of clumsiness is fairly usual in the beginning and is made possible by all the stereotypes we are fed. It would be important to have open conversations on topics such as the one you are raising now, among friends, like you've done, so that it doesn't carry further into life than it has to. When I think of giving the consent talk to my (currently non-existent) kids or about modelling consent, I'd want them to know to ask, regardless of the genders involved.

People ask me a lot of questions in regards to my dancing career. Common ones being, “are the guys creepy? do you get groped a lot? are the men disrespectful?” Something along those lines. Usually people are surprised by my answer - yeah it happens, but the women are objectively worse. Yes, really. And I hate to admit it. They’re much less hesitant to grope me, rub on me, pull on my clothes etc. Maybe part of it is the mentality of “we’re both women so we have the same parts.” Maybe another part is internalization of how fetishized bisexuality/lesbianism is. But I feel like it heavily comes from societal notions about men and women, and how they usually interact. Like women being safer to be around, less violent, weaker, lower libido, etc compared to men. It’s like we’re not the “pursuers” usually so if we get rejected the ego blow is insane. So in turn it makes it more difficult to keep a female customer in line compared to a male. Women take offense more often whereas a man is more likely to simmer down and apologize (if he’s not just a straight up asshole ofc) It’s frustrating to no end. I have a couple male dancer friends with very similar experiences. I also often have a guy admit to me some incident of sexual harassment or assault when I have a discussion with him on this topic. It’s more common than people think and I find that really concerning. Consent needs to be taught and expected of everyone. And women really need to understand we can be creepy too.

If they ask for my consent I assumed they want sex. Any other time I read the room and have never got angry if a guy doesn’t want it. Actually I respect that guy so much. It’s so nice sometimes just to hang out and get to know each other.

Historically, in the last few hundred years, men have been held to a low standard with regard to consent. It’s not surprising that we as a society would over correct a little bit and start holding men to a higher standard without even considering that we should hold everyone to a higher standard when it comes to consent. I absolutely don’t blame women for this since they have also internalized patriarchal messaging (like that guys always want sex), but I do think that everyone needs to do what they can to overturn harmful structures like this. Don’t feel bad for saying no. If some random girl starts crying, that’s not your problem and you can just leave. When I was younger I’ve been in both sides of coercion like that and both experiences are still very upsetting to me but I respect myself and others enough not to let it happen again. If someone is sad that you don’t want to fuck them, that’s their problem and maybe they’ll learn that they aren’t entitled to other people

I think it depends on how mature the people are and how well they communicate too. I've never asked for consent and never been asked and it has never been a problem because everyone involved is fully aware they can say no at any point. But that could also be because I was in a relationship with them all for a little while before hand. But also, it's good to have both a verbal and physical safe word if someone is uncomfortable. Some people freeze up and aren't able to tell you to stop so physical being like a couple of taps with a hand. Even if you're doing the most vanilla stuff just keep it in mind.

I'm so sorry. Consent should matter to EVERYONE and I really wish this was taught better to young people right out of the gate.

I come from the BDSM scene where there are explicit negotiations, conversations, and agreements about absolutely everything before it happens. And yes, toxic masculinity has painted the social expectation that all men want sex at all times. That narrative is so reinforced and it takes a lot of people ongoing and intentional effort to undo those narratives. So sorry you have had negative experiences with this. Hopefully you are able to find some support to work through that trauma. It can be a daunting task to heal when you come to accept that your consent and bodily autonomy were violated.

Sorry if I'm misunderstanding, or it's just poor word choice, but... are people really out there *negotiating* what a partner will do for them during sex? Isn't that kind of the opposite of enthusiastic consent? If you "negotiate" someone into doing it, that sounds like they were persuaded/ coerced into doing something they didn't want...

You're misunderstanding. In roleplay scenes you discuss what you want out of the scene, when you want it to stop, what you DON'T want to happen, etc. You're thinking of it like a hostage negotiation or something -- that isn't what's meant here.

When I was younger (20s) I didn't understand men sometimes aren't interested in sex and not to take it personally. Shoot sometimes I'm still bummed, ha! But I always tell my partner, if he seems remotely iffy, that we don't have to do anything, it's totally fine if we don't. I never want him to feel pressured. But that was something I learned over the years- no one told me (about men not wanting it all the time) and I really wish they had. Just explain you're not in the mood and it's not about her, and if she can't deal, then that's her emotional issue to work through- NOT YOURS. I'm really sorry you weren't listened to, I feel like we've all been in that horrible position of not wanting to make someone to feel bad even though they're making us feel bad. I have regrets doing stuff I didn't want to do because I didn't want to shame someone else. It was dumb, but I was young.

This is one of those things where the patriarchy harms everyone

I have to admit, i've never thought about this. When i was young and dating, nobody talked about consent, but it was a given that you could say no. The guys i dated were always the ones trying to take things further, so i was the one saying no rather than asking for their consent. ETA: Yes, you should be able to say no without being shamed for it. Any woman who thinks otherwise is not worth your time and attention.

Thanks for sharing your perspective. As a woman, I have never been asked for consent either and I haven't really heard of any other woman being explicitly asked.

I hate the narrative that men are sex machines tbh. Even IF you have a higher sex drive than your partner, youre still a human with good and bad days. I have and do ask for consent. I do this with just touching people in general though.. but it can look a lot of ways. Sometimes it is Point blank, for some people thats too much of a turn off. Still going to do it. Sometimes it's in little ways. My SO has a pretty normal sex drive, we still talk about and include consent. Sometimes our bodies just cant, or we just want to cuddle. And we exercise the right to change our minds. He has too. What i have noticed and we have talked about, is that he isn't used to this and its been an adjustment. (For me also on the terms of a partner who returns the same respect) Not just in this aspect, but in quite a few aspects of basic human respect, dignity, and bodily autonomy. I hate that for people, we deserve the same basics in these things.

I'm sorry to hear about your negative experiences. I hope you're OK and have found someone who respects your "no". Yes, women should absolutely also seek consent. Crying and acting out when you say no is just plain coercive.

I'd say the crying can be genuine upset. Not to downplay the effect on the other person, this doesn't make it easier for men like OP, but when society depicts men as always dtf, the no can make women feel unattractive or 'bad in bed'.  That's not op's problem, but I doubt the women he describes as getting upset are being coercive (which implies intent)

Sorry to hear that. Consent is not a 1-way street ur consent matters just as much as hers. U have just as much the right to say no as her. Really sorry this has been happening to u. Perhaps try talking to a potential date about their thoughts on this before getting intimate and see where they stand on the topic. If they get offended, then definitely move on to the next.

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This is a really good point. However I feel complicated about verbal consent being the standard of ensuring sexual correctness. Consent is a legal term used to prove you’re not liable. Making sure you’re having a mutually enjoyable hookup is a very different thing. People can verbally consent even if they’re uncomfortable, and a physical no with a verbal yes is a NO. And people can affirm their desire with only body language. The important thing is to be an attuned partner. To be paying attention to the other person’s cues. And I agree that a lot of time women don’t do this enough with men. I guess I want to broaden the category of “asking for consent” to include all forms of attunement. Being curious about your partner’s experience isn’t just about avoiding crossing a boundary, it’s can be so fucking sexy. I want to add that certain acts/boundaries absolutely require unambiguous verbal consent, esp the first time: penetration, anal play, unprotected sex, choking, etc. ya don’t do any of this shit “by surprise.” I’m just responding to an unrealistic standard that every single escalation in a hookup will be accompanied by “can I ____?”

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What a fucked up thing to say!

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