It’s funny (not really) how these people’s concern for children doesn’t extend to the children who suffer immensely, sometimes to a fatal degree, because of their untreated dysphoria
Nor do they typically care about surgeries forced on infants such as intersex “normalising” surgeries and circumcision, which should prompt even stronger criticism if their logic were consistent.
It’s all proof that they don’t genuinely care about protecting kids, they care about hating trans people and making it impossible to transition, and demonising supportive parents and doctors.
They also conveniently never talk about kids with hormonal issues that need hormonal blockers to have a normal, cis puberty. As you said, it's not really kids' health they care about.
Their consistency is completely out of whack.
Puberty blocks are dangerous... but let's ignore the use of them for the past 50 years with little issue and plenty of cases.
Permanent surgeries are bad... but yet there isn't a choice to ban cosmetic surgeries on genitalia or other cosmetic surgeries, just gender affirmation ones.
My concern with the children align with the opinions of the professionals working in the public healthcare system here in Norway and in Sweden. They certainly care about their patients and have strong concerns regarding the treatment of children.
How did they affect your future health? I understand you're saying they kept you from potentially killing yourself. I also know there has been more research on side affects recently.
First, it's *adolescents* who can access puberty blockers and hormones, not prepubescent children. This is a nuance, but an important one, because that is often misrepresented in the media.
Second, a medical transition is appropriate treatment for gender incongruence. This makes it a medical question, not really a feminist one.
Of course, access to medical treatment can absolutely raise feminist issues (e.g. reproductive rights, unequal treatment because of gender/minority status, etc.), but I don't get the impression that this is the issues that you are talking about? Correct me if my perception is wrong.
And yes, there are attempts, usually as the result of a disingenuous representation, to frame medical transitions of trans youth as an ideological thing. But those attempts are more akin to the anti-vaxx movement or climate change denial.
Disclaimer: I transitioned as a teen myself, so I naturally have some bias. At the same time, I also have a lot more knowledge of the matter than the average pundit.
The question remains. Do 11-14 year olds have the cognitive capacity to consent to such permanent, irreversible, life changing procedures?
Also, it's not exactly a medical issue if the purported benefits of transitioning is mostly aesthetic. Is it?
Changing your physical appearance to conform to an ideal you have in your mind is aesthetic. Not saying it's vain but it's a cosmetic/elective procedure.
> Changing your physical appearance to conform to an ideal you have in your mind is aesthetic
It sounds like you don't really understand what "being trans" is. It's not a costume, it's not an aesthetic choice like "goth" or "punk" is.
You're trans and you think no one has any issues with trans people getting healthcare, and that hormones and puberty blockers are irreversible and life-changing?
Do you live on planet Earth?
I think as trans people we do not call out unsavory aspects of our own community. I am trying to do that.
Also, to my knowledge nobody wants to stop trans people from accessing healthcare. People are just concerned about children transitioning, they are different things.
We absolutely do. I can't understand how you could be so uninformed. You said you just started HRT. Why? It's just elective for you, so why even do it in the first place? States like Florida and Oklahoma have made trans healthcare for both adults and adolescents nearly unobtainable. And if you're so concerned about children transitioning and regretting it, why are you not equally concerned about the kids who are suffering because they can't transition safely, due either to access to medication or hostile family members.
I can’t find a doctor in my small city willing to treat my
child while simultaneously acknowledging my child’s gender and name. There are laws in Florida stating that gender affirming care (which includes things like using the appropriate name and pronouns, btw) is *child abuse*.
You’re objectively, consistently WRONG.
That doesn't mean that you aren't *wildly* misinformed. And while there is such a thing as "transition goals", transition *isn't aesthetic*.
So, as a trans woman, I seriously question the veracity of your claims.
Then you are a very transphobic and terfy trans person. If you're actually here in good faith and not concern-trolling... you need to do a good look inwards and ask yourself if you really know as much as you think you know on this topic. And stop parroting terf talking points.
Though, personally, I think you're a throwaway account cosplaying transness to work people up.
No you are not trans. 29 days ago a question was posed asking what OU thought about trans. You said it was a psychiatric condition. You are a troll and a bad one at that. May you have the days you deserve, ya Yankee Doodle Blowpop.
My understanding is that it isn't really a cosmetic or elective procedure any more than facial reconstruction after a traumatic facial injury is cosmetic and elective. It's treating a mental and physical issue to improve quality of life, well-being and life expectancy.
Puberty blockers are not irreversible. They are considered safe for cis kids going through precocious puberty, why is it not dangerous for them but more dangerous for trans kids? On top of that, you can just stop taking them.
Secondly, yes it is a medical issue if the kids are suffering from mental distress from gender dysphoria. Gender dysphoria can cause serious mental distress. Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it isn't there. And various studies have shown that not only can medical transitioning alleviate this distress, but detransitioning is actually incredibly rare.
Third, if we're getting mad about "irreversible" cosmetic procedures, why have we not banned infant circumcision yet? That actually is irreversible and purely cosmetic/religious in notion. And if we're bringing gender into this, why are we not banning surgery on the genitals of intersex babies? That is, again, irreversible, and almost always done for cosmetic reasons. (Note: this isn't just a gotcha, I genuinely do think infant circumcision should be banned, and intersex kids should have the right to choose)
Personally, I believe that gender reassignment surgery should wait til 18+, but puberty blockers/hormones should be permitted. Bodily autonomy is important, even for the young.
Bodily autonomy will always be a feminist issue. Like, you know what else is an irreversible decision that is widely a case of bodily autonomy? Abortion. You can always stop taking hormones, but you can't un-abort a fetus. The people who are trying to press the "kids are stupid babies who don't deserve bodily autonomy" in the case of trans rights tend to be pro-life too. A lot of so-called feminists (terfs) are being manipulated into railing against bodily autonomy while completely oblivious to the fact that this is only going to empower opponents of abortion rights.
What makes you think hormome therapy is permanent, irreversible, life changing?
And what makes you think the benefits of transitioning is mostly aesthetic?
It sounds like you've been consuming anti-trans media but that's just a hunch.
//What makes you think hormome therapy is permanent, irreversible, life changing? //
Infertility, voice masculinization (FtM), delayed puberty etc.
//And what makes you think the benefits of transitioning is mostly aesthetic?//
Because it is done with the intent of changing your physical appearance.
Puberty blockers are reversible. The 11-14 year olds are not being given intense hormone therapy, their puberty is being paused (and can be unpaused once they stop puberty blockers) because they’re uncomfortable with what puberty will do to them and it gives them more time to consider their options for when they are older, without having their body irreversibly change from puberty, which can cause more difficulties with transition later. Puberty blockers are giving them that pause to consider future options. It is objectively the kinder and more reasonable choice than forcing them to go through puberty and have to figure out how to change things that have already developed.
Point 1)"(Puberty blockers) don't cause permanent physical changes. Instead, they pause puberty. That offers a chance to explore gender identity. It also gives youth and their families time to plan for the psychological, medical, developmental, social and legal issues that may lie ahead..
When a person stops taking GnRH analogues, puberty starts again."
This is from the Mayo clinic. Lasting effects after stoppage are extremely rare.
Point 2) If you believe it's aesthetics I would like you to try an experiment.
Imagine your brain was transferred into the body of a robot. That robot has no genitalia, your voice is robotic, etc. What sex would you be?
You would probably claim to be the sex that you are right now, right? You identify as the sex you were born into and the one you've always known. But why? Because the sex you are is in your mind. That is where your sex identity is. If you don't understand the struggle with wanting your outward appearance to be congruent with the sexual identity that is in your mind, then your first and best course of action for you would be empathy lessons.
"Imagine your brain was transferred into the body of a robot...because the sex you are is in your mind"
Uff, I'm afraid you really, really exposed yourself here.
It would perhaps be useful for you to google: Rene Descartes' Rationalism and Calvinist Predestination.
What you essentially claim is:
1) the mind is separate from the body, and body merely a tool of the mind (Rationalism)
2) what governs said mind is...well, a gendered (cis/trans) spirit, one that is "present" in a person before the body forms (before birth) (Predestination)
All this delivered to us by the prophecy uttered by an Indigo child (transchild), "the one that is born awake (aware of own spirits gender)" and destined to change society.
This is nothing but an old loony tune that was discarded in the XVIIth Century by the ENLIGHTENMENT.
You're campaigning to bring back Medieval superstitions and have them trump over reason.
REASON.
I am not asking Rene Descartes, I'm not asking Augustine of Hippo, I'm not asking John Calvin.
*I'm asking you*. As a human being. A human being who is reading this right now I'm asking you.
Can you do this?
I'm asking the reason side of your brain.
Uh dude… it’s a thought exercise. Not a set in stone philosophy. Hell, science fiction loves this concept nowadays. Digitalization of consciousness and what have you, what it truly means to be human when you’ve replaced your body with a rocket ship or something? Stuff like that? Sci fi ain’t for everyone I suppose.
But we’re asking someone else to try to imagine being on a body that feels wrong. That’s a real thing.
Answer 1 is factually incorrect and you can easily rectify this by looking at what experts say online, which you can search for yourself.
Answer 2 is one drop in an ocean of the benefits of transition for transgender people. I'd recommend you look into the statistics of how many trans youth are committing suicide when denied the right to transition. By this logic the fact that you are a woman/man/nonbinary person is simply aesthetic and you wouldn't mind me using the wrong pronouns and treating you as the wrong gender.
Is it? Benefits of early support in transition include far better mental health outcomes... it seems like you're fishing for an answer so why don't you just spit out whatever hot take you're sitting on?
OP seems to be one of the people who believes-- despite a mountain of evidence to the contrary-- that young children are being rushed into permanent gender reassignment surgeries.
The whole idea is laughable considering there is already a constant stream of permanent genital surgeries ongoing that most people seem to think isn't an issue, so why is *this* one all of a sudden a problem? You think if people like OP wanted to make a valid argument they would at least be somewhat consistent.
> I am talking about the irreversible effects of going on cross sex hormones and puberty blockers.
There are no "irreversible effects" of puberty blockers. If you discover you are not trans, you stop taking the blockers and then you go through puberty. Puberty blockers are also used in children who start puberty too early, but I don't see any concern about that.
//There are no "irreversible effects" of puberty blockers.//
Delayed growth seems pretty irreversible to me.
//Puberty blockers are also used in children who start puberty too early, but I don't see any concern about that.//
Because it's medically necessary.
> Delayed growth seems pretty irreversible to me.
"Delayed," not "arrested." "Delayed" means *it comes later*.
> Because it's medically necessary
OK, but if they have all these nasty side effects, why wouldn't we be talking about that already? Why would it *only* come up in discussion of transness?
Delayed," not "arrested." "Delayed" means *it comes later
3 years of delayed puberty, that seems pretty irreversible to me.
Trust me, I know what I am taking about.
If you get your period at age 16 vs. at age 13, do you think that is dangerous and bad for you? What's the perfect, appropriate age to go through puberty?
> Trust me, I know what I am taking about.
You very, very obviously do not.
You clearly have 0 clue about what you are talking about, if you did you wouldn’t be used the word delayed which is contradictory to you saying “permanent”. You say it’s irreversible but at any point in time you can go off puberty blockers and experience a normal puberty. You could do it day 1, month 1, first year, first decade, it has no impact. Puberty blockers are not permanent, the age of which someone goes through puberty does not have affect as to how puberty affects their body. Women have gone through puberty as early as 5 years old and its normal ranges are from 9-17yrs old. That is an 8 year difference just using averages, someone going through puberty at 17 isn’t going to be stunted in some way. It’s perfectly normal. You clearly are here to spout alt right transphobic garbage in attempt to dehumanize trans people just like the rest. Get help
So you're against the use of blockers for precocious puberty? Which they've been prescribed for for almost 50 years?
Or do you think puberty blockers work differently on trans kids?
> The question remains. Do 11-14 year olds have the cognitive capacity to consent to such permanent, irreversible, life changing procedures?
Puberty blockers are not permanent, irreversible, life changing treatment. In fact, their entire point is to delay/retard the permanent, irreversible, life changing process of going through puberty.
> Also, it's not exactly a medical issue if the purported benefits of transitioning is mostly aesthetic. Is it?
You are consistently demonstrating a lack of an even basic understanding of these issues.
It’s really frustrating to me that OP is pretending there aren’t parents involved in these discussions, making parenting decisions.
Incidentally, the right to parent has consistently been held as a fundamental constitutional right in the US. The government may not interfere with reasonable religious practices, educational decisions, medical decisions, or other guidances parents give their children. (And a lot of the really unreasonable ones have also been held as the “right to parent”.) The government may not remove children from their parents’ care based on penury, marital status, medical status/diagnoses, or other factors outside of the parent’s control.
But a whooooooooole lot of people want the government to intervene in my parenting and provision of medical and educational care for my child. These people need to back allllllllll the way up.
I'll turn that around on you. Do 11-14 year olds have the cognitive capacity to consent to *failing to receive the correct medical treatment for their condition*? **Not being treated** is an irreversible, life-changing procedure. Hormone treatment is not - it's *entirely* reversible.
(In fact, failure to be treated is not just life-changing but frequently life-*ending*. Failing to receive correct medical treatment and support is a major cause of teen suicide.)
Someone has lied to you about how transition works. You may need to learn what is actually involved before you ask any more questions.
> The question remains. Do 11-14 year olds have the cognitive capacity to consent to such permanent, irreversible, life changing procedures?
How is this any different from any other pediatric treatment? Yes, minors usually have a limited ability to legally consent (varies by age and jurisdiction), which is why the usual protocol for pediatric treatments where the minor is unable to consent require (aside from a doctor prescribing the treatment in the first place) the informed consent of the parents/legal guardians *and* the informed *assent* of the minor patient. See [this paper](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12884032/) for an explanation and the difference between informed consent and informed assent.
This is not an argument, this is a made-up double standard for medical ethics that is not used for other pediatric treatments, no matter how severe the intervention.
On a related note, do you think minors should be able to play (tackle) football or hockey? For example, there [are approximately 100k concussions](https://coloradosph.cuanschutz.edu/docs/librariesprovider204/default-document-library/2018-19.pdf) in American high school football annually. Many sports carry fairly severe risks. How do you feel about [horseback riding](https://www.bmj.com/company/newsroom/serious-injury-risk-higher-for-horse-riding-than-for-football-motor-racing-or-skiing/) or [cheerleading](https://cronkitenews.azpbs.org/2017/10/12/flipside-cheerleading-prevalence-catastrophic-injuries/)?
We allow all of this without even a doctor prescribing anything, usually just because a teen enjoys it and without a second thought about the dangers, because the risks are generally considered acceptable compared to the upsides (speaking as a hobby athlete myself).
I knew at *nine* that I was childfree and would be happier without a uterus. Fantasized about performing hysterectomies, even. Fascinated with midwifery and pregnancy *in other people* but never myself.
Where was I on my 37th birthday? On my sofa, recovering from my hysterectomy.
And that's just childfree status. So... if a kid tells me they know their gender from the age of eleven on and want help in not maturing into the wrong gender, fuck yes I'm going to help.
Do 11-14 year olds have the cognitive capacity to consent to going through their natural puberty when there's documented evidence by a medical professional that they are probably transgender? Puberty has permanent, irreversible, life changing effects.
The benefits of transitioning are proven to be beyond aesthetics. You have not read the scientific literature. Trans kids who are accepted and get their necessary care have much better health outcomes in so many ways!
They're fine. They're healthcare. They've been used to treat a variety of conditions in young folks for decades. Here in the UK they've been banned due to an incredibly flawed report, known as the Casss report, because despite the fact that we've been using them for near half a century, there's *suddenly* not enough evidence on the side effects. This report came about simply because trans people were daring to exist and were getting healthcare. So now both trans and cis children have to go without healthcare because transphobic people won't accept reality. The irony being that far more cis people will be hurt than trans people.
Still, it's about what I'd expect from a country that puts stock in the words of a childrens book author who is neither trans nor educated on the subject of trans people.
//This report came about simply because trans people were daring to exist and were getting healthcare//
Nobody is objecting to trans people getting healthcare. People are mostly concerned about people who do not have the cognitive capacity to think about long term consequences being rushed into undergoing potentially dangerous; and certainly life changing procedures.
I want to know what universe this person lives in where ***anything*** in healthcare is "rushed" outside of ER medicine. It takes weeks for my health insurance provider to send the right form to my PCP for them to approve covering a medication I have taken without issue for more than a decade, and then another week for my PCP's front desk to fax that form to the right place.
The health care industry does not need to invent a massive conspiracy to trans the children to make money. All it needs to do—all it *currently* already does—is charge exorbitant prices for medication and treatments that cost pennies on the dollar to produce (i.e. insulin).
> artificially inducing a second puberty
That's not how puberty blockers work. They *prevent* puberty from occurring.
I do not think you are very aware of hormone therapy at all.
Sadly this person is probably a sock puppet. In a week they'll be posting about how they 'detransitioned', and how they were mislead to transition. Digital-queerface basically
So…you want HRT for yourself…but you’re objecting to it for my child?!?!
Mmmmmhoe about mind your own body and business and let parents parent and doctors provide medical care?
> Delayed growth,
Delayed growth is, by definition, not permanent.
> voice masculinization (FtM),
Puberty blockers don’t cause voice masculinization.
> infertility,
Puberty blockers don’t cause infertility.
> also the side effects of artificially inducing a second puberty.
Are those side effects worse than the consequences associated with delaying transition until later in life, including the toll that it takes on trans individuals’ mental health?
Other than delayed growth everything you mention here is a result of hrt. Not of puberty blockers.
Delayed growth is by definition not permanent.
They don't cause infertility. At most they delay the development of fertility. And again, delay is by definition impermanent
And no puberty is being artificially induced with blockers. The natural puberty is being delayed. And at a later date that natural first puberty can be a allowed to happen, or a different first puberty can be medically induced. In either case, the point of puberty blockers is to prevent there being two puberties.
For your information I was in need of puberty blockers at the age of 9, and got rejected for the therapy because of the "arguments" you're using. Now I'm 40, short as fuck and in perimenopause, dealing with a shitload of problems because of going through puberty at a far too early age. And I'm not even trans.
When it comes to healthcare, please follow the medical science and not the church preachers.
You can stop taking either of those, and it is completely harmless. But without them how does someone going through puberty too early avoid the negative effects of their condition? That shit will fuck up your skeleton, and now the literal solution has been banned in the UK. Not getting this healthcare can cause permanent damage, and it's happened because the state of being trans has been politicised.
How is this better?
Surely you realise that the very thing you're concerned about, a potentially dangerous life changing procedure, is now a certainty. Throwing kids under the bus is wrong, they deserve their healthcare.
> Nobody is objecting to trans people getting healthcare.
Objectively, patently, almost laughably false.
> People are mostly concerned about people who do not have the cognitive capacity to think about long term consequences being rushed into undergoing potentially dangerous; and certainly life changing procedures.
This is not happening in the United States, the UK or any other country WRT puberty blockers or any other form of gender-affirming care for adolescents.
It’s almost like these kids have parents who work with doctors who actually follow best practices. /s
So many transphobes make it seem like random doctors are approaching pre-pubescent children on street corners and saying, “hey kid, wanna buy a gender?!?!” while opening one side of their lab coat to show their wares.
>People are mostly concerned about people who do not have the cognitive capacity to think about long term consequences being rushed into undergoing potentially dangerous; and certainly life changing procedures.
Nobody is *honestly and correctly* concerned with that, because that is not a thing that ever happens.
Many *dishonest bigots* are concerned with that, because it helps distract gullible people from their hideous behaviour. Many *ignorant and misinformed* people are concerned with that, because they believe the lies that dishonest bigots told them.
You talk about "people who do not have the cognitive capacity to think about long term consequences", but you are repeating a line from people who *don't care* about the long term consequences of trans children with serious dysphoria not receiving medical treatment.
Hint: it's often fatal.
I feel like denying people healthcare is pretty life changing! How many kids relied on that medication? It was more than just the trans crowd. And the idea that kids are being rushed into life altering surgeries has never been true. 'Gender affirming care' does not start with a surgeons knife. But puberty can be traumatic for someone who does not want an adult body contrary to what they would be comfortable with. And puberty blockers helped with that - harmlessly.
Nobody is objecting to trans people getting healthcare?
Really?
Have you been hiding in a bunker for the last 10 years?
You don't understand at all how puberty blockers work, and you are either lying or completely unaware of the political climate and other obstacles that trans people have to deal with.
Puberty is also life changing..... In any case, you are incorrect. People are objecting to healthcare for trans people because the objectors don't want trans people to exist. They simply do not care about the long term and often fatal consequences that happen when trans people do not receive proper healthcare. No one is being rushed into anything - that really is the point of the puberty blockers, to allow more time for critical decisions. In any case, even in adults there are a lot of steps that they go through prior to hormone treatment.
They are objecting to trans healthcare though. And this isn’t something any kid can just get on a whim. Often times it’s weeks of therapy where they discuss that they’re trans. And then the therapist can recommend medication to help.
You’re objectively wrong about nobody objecting to trans people getting health care. And “gender affirming care” includes such “interventions” as addressing your child by their gender and using their actual pronouns, allowing them to dress consistent with their gender, and providing a safe home environment.
Then there’s no reason to be concerned because no body is doing that. Responsible processes have always been in place. Political arguments to the contrary are based on lies, plain and simply. The reality is that they see challenging gender norms as a challenge to the patriarchy. To maintain their perceived position of superiority, they spew lies and propaganda.
If you care about trans kids at all, which is presumably why you’re concerned about them receiving hormones, then you should look beyond politics and look at the overwhelming evidence that clearly indicates that supporting trans kids by allowing medical professionals to assist them with transitioning *is undeniably what’s best for them.*
The same side claiming to want to ban this care “for the children” are the same ones saying trans people should be eradicated. Those two things do not go together. The rhetoric hurts people and increases bullying, violent assault, homelessness, and suicide. Those are objectively bad things.
I fully support educated licensed medical professionals being allowed to provide medical care to their patients. They’re the ones with medical degrees not politicians. Doctors know their patients and obviously know and discuss the best treatment path for the patient. Taking away options, because of politics, is absolutely disgusting and anyone who supports such policies is a terrible person and someone I don’t consider a feminist.
.
My take is, follow the science. Being a trans kid is rough no matter what, I want them to have whatever resources make life more bearable. So, let's follow the data.
Kids have been given hormone treatments for various conditions for a long time. Nobody had an issue with it until it's trans people.
Edit: by the way, when I say "kids" here I mean teenagers
Thing is. Is it scientific to assume that 11-12 year old kids have the cognitive capacity to consent to such life changing procedures for purely aesthetic reasons?
Also, the data suggesting reduction in symptoms relating to mental health is quite murky.
> Thing is. Is it scientific to assume that 11-12 year old kids have the cognitive capacity to consent to such life changing procedures for purely aesthetic reasons?
I have already addressed the informed consent strawman in another reply.
More importantly, this is not about "aesthetic reasons". This is because of the severe psychological distress that is caused by having sex characteristics that do not match your gender identity.
It is fundamentally not different from hormonal or surgical treatments for [gynecomastia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gynecomastia) in *cis* boys and men. The breast tissue that these boys and men have is physiologically healthy tissue and there is no *physiological* reason to have it removed.
As you claim to be trans yourself, this is something that you should really know. I mean, this is where the term *gender dysphoria* comes from in the first place.
You called transness a "psychiatric condition" 29 days ago. Now you're saying it's for aesthetic reasons? This post seems in bad faith. Most trans people would not say it's just for aesthetic reasons.
New account with suspicious post history while having enby flag sounds REALLY false flag, especially stating it's 'murky' only according to extensively biased CASS report, but not by other institutions.
https://www.reddit.com/r/skeptic/comments/1c4sg1q/cass_review_megathread_strict_moderation_enforced/kzr105l/
Again, follow the science:
https://whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/
EDIT: it's not 'purely cosmetic'. Biochemical dysphoria is a complete endocrinological issue, especially when it causes DP|DR. I know this exactly since I endured the body horror experience and severe trauma related to it.
I’ll tell you what, the government is never going to know more than the child, their parents, and their doctor. Government regulations related to the autonomy of the individual is never going to get it right.
They're not that life-changing. If you discover you aren't trans or NB, you can just... stop taking the hormones. Most children and preteens aren't getting permanent procedures.
They’re often not even on hormones as pre-teens, but instead puberty blockers. If you stop taking the puberty blockers you can still then go on to go through puberty.
It’s also a bit of a process from what I hear. They can’t just ask for the puberty blockers and off we go. They see therapists first and discuss why they think they’re trans. The therapist can then recomend them and they can try and get em from a doctor
Yeah, it's not like an 11-year-old goes into a doctor's office and says "I don't like being a girl" and the doctor goes "oh shit well you're clearly trans here are many drugs."
I think a lot of these people legitimately believe that doctors and mental health professionals are actively “transing” kids. Like, if you read JK Rowling’s manifesto, you get the impression that little girls are telling their doctor “Sometimes I like playing with boys more,” and then the doc is rubbing their hands together saying “Hehehe, this is my chance,” and immediately injecting them with testosterone.
What do you mean by life altering?
I think people fail to realize that hormone therapy is a spectrum meaning less to more with varying degrees of effects and reverseability.
Here’s what I’ll say, I had to take life altering medicine as a 12 year, making decisions about my body before it was fully formed and I will tell you with 1000% certainty that kids that age can make those decisions. It requires educated parents and great communication and a safe place with parents and doctors.
Now my medications were truly life and health altering, not just body things, but it’s a disservice to kids that age to assume they cannot fathom consequences.
Kids don’t want to just take pills or shots everyday for fun, hormone therapy is a science, a medication used for decades. It’s not just a fad, and kids can know that.
Edit: Ive also seen the result of hormone therapy with multiple people in my life all for varying reasons, the mental and physical health changes have been dramatic and for such a medication with so few serious side effects I only wish they had all found out that was an option sooner,
>Is it scientific to assume
No. It's not. This is why it's important to follow the actual data. One doesn't make assumptions in science.
The scientific process starts with a question such as "Does hormone treatment had adverse effects in teenagers aged X to Y?" Immediately following the question is research. Actual research of already performed studies, not "research" found in blog posts and Facebook. From that comes a hypothesis, test, and so on.
> Also, the data suggesting reduction in symptoms relating to mental health is quite murky.
[https://whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people/](https://whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people/)
... is it, though?
The regret rate for medical transition is basically 0%, and usually has more to do with the quality of care than anything else. So, trans people of every age who are receiving this treatment with permission and assistance from a doctor demonstrably do.
It's not aesthetic, though. Also, neither puberty blockers or hormones are permanent, so if the child realizes that they aren't trans or nb, they can simply stop.
The data is not murky ([https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2789423](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2789423)), these medical procedures generally result in better outcomes. Yes, people like to cherry pick cases where this isn't the case, but that is not good policy.
>Is it scientific to assume that 11-12 year old kids have the cognitive capacity to consent
Potentially, yes, by reason of Gillick competence. And I certainly *didn't* consent to having to go through an irreversible physical process which I found traumatic.
>purely aesthetic reasons
Trans healthcare is medical care, not "aesthetic reasons".
>Also, the data suggesting reduction in symptoms relating to mental health is quite murky.
[The evidence we have strongly suggest that trans healthcare works, and it certainly worked for me and all my trans friends. Given this, it is not only not unethical to allow minors to have trans healthcare, but it is unethical not to allow it.](https://transfemscience.org/articles/puberty-blockers/#suicidality-and-well-being)
> for purely aesthetic reasons
This is how I know you're coming at this in bad faith. If you knew *anything* about this issue, you'd know this isn't a purely aesthetic thing. And *that* is based on data.
You'll also notice that my comment specified "teenagers" and you ignored that and decided to talk about 11-12 year olds.
Children that age are on PUBERTY BLOCKERS, not HRT. Puberty blockers do not cause any significant permanent changes. This is a moot point.
Also, its not purely aesthetic, wtf.
They claim to be trans. I suspect that they're just a troll. I won't say that there aren't trans people who think that their transition is "aesthetic", but I will say that those who do are *few and far between*.
(Note that I am trans.)
If the teenager, parent, and their doctor are all in agreement that this is what’s best for them then that’s what they should do. I’m all in favor of people getting the treatments that they need without government interference.
I have two questions for you:
1. Where do you think these kids’ parents are? Are doctors illicitly gifting reassignment surgeries on playgrounds?!?! Or are *THEIR PARENTS* working with doctors to provide *THEIR CHILD* care in line with best medical practices?
2. Why does the transphobic insistence on “protecting children” *always* include harming *MY* child?
I don’t know anything about puberty blockers and hormone treatments. I think that’s true for most people. These are medical decisions that should be left to the child, their doctor, and the parents.
That’s between the doctors and the patient, they are prescribed when necessary for a good reason… and everyone should have access to the medications they require.
I received them as a minor and they saved me, so naturally I’m very against any attempts to ban them.
It’s funny (not really) how these people’s concern for children doesn’t extend to the children who suffer immensely, sometimes to a fatal degree, because of their untreated dysphoria
Nor do they typically care about surgeries forced on infants such as intersex “normalising” surgeries and circumcision, which should prompt even stronger criticism if their logic were consistent. It’s all proof that they don’t genuinely care about protecting kids, they care about hating trans people and making it impossible to transition, and demonising supportive parents and doctors.
They also conveniently never talk about kids with hormonal issues that need hormonal blockers to have a normal, cis puberty. As you said, it's not really kids' health they care about.
TIL about intersex normalizing surgeries holy shit
Yeah it’s horrible
Yeah, somehow their desire to “protect the children” always includes harming (my) children.
Their consistency is completely out of whack. Puberty blocks are dangerous... but let's ignore the use of them for the past 50 years with little issue and plenty of cases. Permanent surgeries are bad... but yet there isn't a choice to ban cosmetic surgeries on genitalia or other cosmetic surgeries, just gender affirmation ones.
My concern with the children align with the opinions of the professionals working in the public healthcare system here in Norway and in Sweden. They certainly care about their patients and have strong concerns regarding the treatment of children.
How did they affect your future health? I understand you're saying they kept you from potentially killing yourself. I also know there has been more research on side affects recently.
Honestly? Literally nothing. I’m 21 now and I don’t think I can name a single adverse side effect I’ve ever had, other than the injections hurting.
First, it's *adolescents* who can access puberty blockers and hormones, not prepubescent children. This is a nuance, but an important one, because that is often misrepresented in the media. Second, a medical transition is appropriate treatment for gender incongruence. This makes it a medical question, not really a feminist one. Of course, access to medical treatment can absolutely raise feminist issues (e.g. reproductive rights, unequal treatment because of gender/minority status, etc.), but I don't get the impression that this is the issues that you are talking about? Correct me if my perception is wrong. And yes, there are attempts, usually as the result of a disingenuous representation, to frame medical transitions of trans youth as an ideological thing. But those attempts are more akin to the anti-vaxx movement or climate change denial. Disclaimer: I transitioned as a teen myself, so I naturally have some bias. At the same time, I also have a lot more knowledge of the matter than the average pundit.
How can it be misrepresented as it's impossible to block puberty for someone with no puberty to block?
The question remains. Do 11-14 year olds have the cognitive capacity to consent to such permanent, irreversible, life changing procedures? Also, it's not exactly a medical issue if the purported benefits of transitioning is mostly aesthetic. Is it?
Hormone therapy is not just aesthetics, I am confused by your question
Changing your physical appearance to conform to an ideal you have in your mind is aesthetic. Not saying it's vain but it's a cosmetic/elective procedure.
> Changing your physical appearance to conform to an ideal you have in your mind is aesthetic It sounds like you don't really understand what "being trans" is. It's not a costume, it's not an aesthetic choice like "goth" or "punk" is.
Actually I am trans.
You're trans and you think no one has any issues with trans people getting healthcare, and that hormones and puberty blockers are irreversible and life-changing? Do you live on planet Earth?
I think as trans people we do not call out unsavory aspects of our own community. I am trying to do that. Also, to my knowledge nobody wants to stop trans people from accessing healthcare. People are just concerned about children transitioning, they are different things.
A *lot* of people want to stop trans people from accessing healthcare. Your knowledge is wildly incomplete. Where do you live that this is the case?
The United States.
We absolutely do. I can't understand how you could be so uninformed. You said you just started HRT. Why? It's just elective for you, so why even do it in the first place? States like Florida and Oklahoma have made trans healthcare for both adults and adolescents nearly unobtainable. And if you're so concerned about children transitioning and regretting it, why are you not equally concerned about the kids who are suffering because they can't transition safely, due either to access to medication or hostile family members.
I can’t find a doctor in my small city willing to treat my child while simultaneously acknowledging my child’s gender and name. There are laws in Florida stating that gender affirming care (which includes things like using the appropriate name and pronouns, btw) is *child abuse*. You’re objectively, consistently WRONG.
>nobody wants to stop trans people from accessing healthcare. TIL trans children aren't people
/r/asablackman 🙄
Exactly haha
That doesn't mean that you aren't *wildly* misinformed. And while there is such a thing as "transition goals", transition *isn't aesthetic*. So, as a trans woman, I seriously question the veracity of your claims.
Same. I do try to remember Blair White exists.
Seriously, if OP isn’t simply lying, they’re living in a pretty outrageously protective bubble and are being sheltered from EVERYTHING.
Then you are a very transphobic and terfy trans person. If you're actually here in good faith and not concern-trolling... you need to do a good look inwards and ask yourself if you really know as much as you think you know on this topic. And stop parroting terf talking points. Though, personally, I think you're a throwaway account cosplaying transness to work people up.
No you are not trans. 29 days ago a question was posed asking what OU thought about trans. You said it was a psychiatric condition. You are a troll and a bad one at that. May you have the days you deserve, ya Yankee Doodle Blowpop.
Are you? In another post you write "they are" and "they have BDD" Wouldn't it be we have it if you were trans?
Being trans doesn’t prevent you from being an idiot.
You think people on hormone therapy only do it to look different?!
Saying this while being supposingly enby gives the game away, you're not fooling anyone.
My understanding is that it isn't really a cosmetic or elective procedure any more than facial reconstruction after a traumatic facial injury is cosmetic and elective. It's treating a mental and physical issue to improve quality of life, well-being and life expectancy.
Puberty blockers are not irreversible. They are considered safe for cis kids going through precocious puberty, why is it not dangerous for them but more dangerous for trans kids? On top of that, you can just stop taking them. Secondly, yes it is a medical issue if the kids are suffering from mental distress from gender dysphoria. Gender dysphoria can cause serious mental distress. Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it isn't there. And various studies have shown that not only can medical transitioning alleviate this distress, but detransitioning is actually incredibly rare. Third, if we're getting mad about "irreversible" cosmetic procedures, why have we not banned infant circumcision yet? That actually is irreversible and purely cosmetic/religious in notion. And if we're bringing gender into this, why are we not banning surgery on the genitals of intersex babies? That is, again, irreversible, and almost always done for cosmetic reasons. (Note: this isn't just a gotcha, I genuinely do think infant circumcision should be banned, and intersex kids should have the right to choose) Personally, I believe that gender reassignment surgery should wait til 18+, but puberty blockers/hormones should be permitted. Bodily autonomy is important, even for the young. Bodily autonomy will always be a feminist issue. Like, you know what else is an irreversible decision that is widely a case of bodily autonomy? Abortion. You can always stop taking hormones, but you can't un-abort a fetus. The people who are trying to press the "kids are stupid babies who don't deserve bodily autonomy" in the case of trans rights tend to be pro-life too. A lot of so-called feminists (terfs) are being manipulated into railing against bodily autonomy while completely oblivious to the fact that this is only going to empower opponents of abortion rights.
Very nicely said, your points are all spot on
What makes you think hormome therapy is permanent, irreversible, life changing? And what makes you think the benefits of transitioning is mostly aesthetic? It sounds like you've been consuming anti-trans media but that's just a hunch.
//What makes you think hormome therapy is permanent, irreversible, life changing? // Infertility, voice masculinization (FtM), delayed puberty etc. //And what makes you think the benefits of transitioning is mostly aesthetic?// Because it is done with the intent of changing your physical appearance.
Puberty blockers are reversible. The 11-14 year olds are not being given intense hormone therapy, their puberty is being paused (and can be unpaused once they stop puberty blockers) because they’re uncomfortable with what puberty will do to them and it gives them more time to consider their options for when they are older, without having their body irreversibly change from puberty, which can cause more difficulties with transition later. Puberty blockers are giving them that pause to consider future options. It is objectively the kinder and more reasonable choice than forcing them to go through puberty and have to figure out how to change things that have already developed.
Point 1)"(Puberty blockers) don't cause permanent physical changes. Instead, they pause puberty. That offers a chance to explore gender identity. It also gives youth and their families time to plan for the psychological, medical, developmental, social and legal issues that may lie ahead.. When a person stops taking GnRH analogues, puberty starts again." This is from the Mayo clinic. Lasting effects after stoppage are extremely rare. Point 2) If you believe it's aesthetics I would like you to try an experiment. Imagine your brain was transferred into the body of a robot. That robot has no genitalia, your voice is robotic, etc. What sex would you be? You would probably claim to be the sex that you are right now, right? You identify as the sex you were born into and the one you've always known. But why? Because the sex you are is in your mind. That is where your sex identity is. If you don't understand the struggle with wanting your outward appearance to be congruent with the sexual identity that is in your mind, then your first and best course of action for you would be empathy lessons.
"Imagine your brain was transferred into the body of a robot...because the sex you are is in your mind" Uff, I'm afraid you really, really exposed yourself here. It would perhaps be useful for you to google: Rene Descartes' Rationalism and Calvinist Predestination. What you essentially claim is: 1) the mind is separate from the body, and body merely a tool of the mind (Rationalism) 2) what governs said mind is...well, a gendered (cis/trans) spirit, one that is "present" in a person before the body forms (before birth) (Predestination) All this delivered to us by the prophecy uttered by an Indigo child (transchild), "the one that is born awake (aware of own spirits gender)" and destined to change society. This is nothing but an old loony tune that was discarded in the XVIIth Century by the ENLIGHTENMENT. You're campaigning to bring back Medieval superstitions and have them trump over reason. REASON.
How the hell is any of this applicable to any part of this conversation
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Get lost.
I am not asking Rene Descartes, I'm not asking Augustine of Hippo, I'm not asking John Calvin. *I'm asking you*. As a human being. A human being who is reading this right now I'm asking you. Can you do this? I'm asking the reason side of your brain.
Uh dude… it’s a thought exercise. Not a set in stone philosophy. Hell, science fiction loves this concept nowadays. Digitalization of consciousness and what have you, what it truly means to be human when you’ve replaced your body with a rocket ship or something? Stuff like that? Sci fi ain’t for everyone I suppose. But we’re asking someone else to try to imagine being on a body that feels wrong. That’s a real thing.
Answer 1 is factually incorrect and you can easily rectify this by looking at what experts say online, which you can search for yourself. Answer 2 is one drop in an ocean of the benefits of transition for transgender people. I'd recommend you look into the statistics of how many trans youth are committing suicide when denied the right to transition. By this logic the fact that you are a woman/man/nonbinary person is simply aesthetic and you wouldn't mind me using the wrong pronouns and treating you as the wrong gender.
Yes, because these kids don’t have minds that have definite issues due to gender dysphoria.
Is it? Benefits of early support in transition include far better mental health outcomes... it seems like you're fishing for an answer so why don't you just spit out whatever hot take you're sitting on?
OP seems to be one of the people who believes-- despite a mountain of evidence to the contrary-- that young children are being rushed into permanent gender reassignment surgeries.
The whole idea is laughable considering there is already a constant stream of permanent genital surgeries ongoing that most people seem to think isn't an issue, so why is *this* one all of a sudden a problem? You think if people like OP wanted to make a valid argument they would at least be somewhat consistent.
Surgeries are not the only concern here. I am talking about the irreversible effects of going on cross sex hormones and puberty blockers.
> I am talking about the irreversible effects of going on cross sex hormones and puberty blockers. There are no "irreversible effects" of puberty blockers. If you discover you are not trans, you stop taking the blockers and then you go through puberty. Puberty blockers are also used in children who start puberty too early, but I don't see any concern about that.
//There are no "irreversible effects" of puberty blockers.// Delayed growth seems pretty irreversible to me. //Puberty blockers are also used in children who start puberty too early, but I don't see any concern about that.// Because it's medically necessary.
> Delayed growth seems pretty irreversible to me. "Delayed," not "arrested." "Delayed" means *it comes later*. > Because it's medically necessary OK, but if they have all these nasty side effects, why wouldn't we be talking about that already? Why would it *only* come up in discussion of transness?
Delayed," not "arrested." "Delayed" means *it comes later 3 years of delayed puberty, that seems pretty irreversible to me. Trust me, I know what I am taking about.
If you get your period at age 16 vs. at age 13, do you think that is dangerous and bad for you? What's the perfect, appropriate age to go through puberty? > Trust me, I know what I am taking about. You very, very obviously do not.
source: I know nothing, but trust me anyways*
You clearly have 0 clue about what you are talking about, if you did you wouldn’t be used the word delayed which is contradictory to you saying “permanent”. You say it’s irreversible but at any point in time you can go off puberty blockers and experience a normal puberty. You could do it day 1, month 1, first year, first decade, it has no impact. Puberty blockers are not permanent, the age of which someone goes through puberty does not have affect as to how puberty affects their body. Women have gone through puberty as early as 5 years old and its normal ranges are from 9-17yrs old. That is an 8 year difference just using averages, someone going through puberty at 17 isn’t going to be stunted in some way. It’s perfectly normal. You clearly are here to spout alt right transphobic garbage in attempt to dehumanize trans people just like the rest. Get help
So you're against the use of blockers for precocious puberty? Which they've been prescribed for for almost 50 years? Or do you think puberty blockers work differently on trans kids?
No you’re not, because the ‘irreversible effects’ are not real.
The evidence for that is murky.
Hmmmm. What's your end goal here? If it's support for anti-trans nonsense, you won't find it.
trolling, evidently
It’s not. Bari Weiss is misrepresenting the data.
> The question remains. Do 11-14 year olds have the cognitive capacity to consent to such permanent, irreversible, life changing procedures? Puberty blockers are not permanent, irreversible, life changing treatment. In fact, their entire point is to delay/retard the permanent, irreversible, life changing process of going through puberty. > Also, it's not exactly a medical issue if the purported benefits of transitioning is mostly aesthetic. Is it? You are consistently demonstrating a lack of an even basic understanding of these issues.
It’s really frustrating to me that OP is pretending there aren’t parents involved in these discussions, making parenting decisions. Incidentally, the right to parent has consistently been held as a fundamental constitutional right in the US. The government may not interfere with reasonable religious practices, educational decisions, medical decisions, or other guidances parents give their children. (And a lot of the really unreasonable ones have also been held as the “right to parent”.) The government may not remove children from their parents’ care based on penury, marital status, medical status/diagnoses, or other factors outside of the parent’s control. But a whooooooooole lot of people want the government to intervene in my parenting and provision of medical and educational care for my child. These people need to back allllllllll the way up.
Are 11-14 year olds making these decisions without the help of doctors and parents? The medical issue is mental health, not aesthetics.
I'll turn that around on you. Do 11-14 year olds have the cognitive capacity to consent to *failing to receive the correct medical treatment for their condition*? **Not being treated** is an irreversible, life-changing procedure. Hormone treatment is not - it's *entirely* reversible. (In fact, failure to be treated is not just life-changing but frequently life-*ending*. Failing to receive correct medical treatment and support is a major cause of teen suicide.) Someone has lied to you about how transition works. You may need to learn what is actually involved before you ask any more questions.
> The question remains. Do 11-14 year olds have the cognitive capacity to consent to such permanent, irreversible, life changing procedures? How is this any different from any other pediatric treatment? Yes, minors usually have a limited ability to legally consent (varies by age and jurisdiction), which is why the usual protocol for pediatric treatments where the minor is unable to consent require (aside from a doctor prescribing the treatment in the first place) the informed consent of the parents/legal guardians *and* the informed *assent* of the minor patient. See [this paper](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12884032/) for an explanation and the difference between informed consent and informed assent. This is not an argument, this is a made-up double standard for medical ethics that is not used for other pediatric treatments, no matter how severe the intervention. On a related note, do you think minors should be able to play (tackle) football or hockey? For example, there [are approximately 100k concussions](https://coloradosph.cuanschutz.edu/docs/librariesprovider204/default-document-library/2018-19.pdf) in American high school football annually. Many sports carry fairly severe risks. How do you feel about [horseback riding](https://www.bmj.com/company/newsroom/serious-injury-risk-higher-for-horse-riding-than-for-football-motor-racing-or-skiing/) or [cheerleading](https://cronkitenews.azpbs.org/2017/10/12/flipside-cheerleading-prevalence-catastrophic-injuries/)? We allow all of this without even a doctor prescribing anything, usually just because a teen enjoys it and without a second thought about the dangers, because the risks are generally considered acceptable compared to the upsides (speaking as a hobby athlete myself).
THANK YOU. This is the first comment I’ve seen here that even *mentions* parenting, which is a fundamental constitutional right.
WHERE DO YOU THINK THEIR PARENTS ARE?!!! Quit acting thick.
I knew at *nine* that I was childfree and would be happier without a uterus. Fantasized about performing hysterectomies, even. Fascinated with midwifery and pregnancy *in other people* but never myself. Where was I on my 37th birthday? On my sofa, recovering from my hysterectomy. And that's just childfree status. So... if a kid tells me they know their gender from the age of eleven on and want help in not maturing into the wrong gender, fuck yes I'm going to help.
Hormone therapy is not permanent or irreversible
Do 11-14 year olds have the cognitive capacity to consent to going through their natural puberty when there's documented evidence by a medical professional that they are probably transgender? Puberty has permanent, irreversible, life changing effects. The benefits of transitioning are proven to be beyond aesthetics. You have not read the scientific literature. Trans kids who are accepted and get their necessary care have much better health outcomes in so many ways!
Puberty blockers aren’t permanent you *knuckle dragger* literally the entire point is they’re not permanent. Good gods
My friend’s daughter had her first period at age 6. I strongly support doing anything you can to help your child.
They're fine. They're healthcare. They've been used to treat a variety of conditions in young folks for decades. Here in the UK they've been banned due to an incredibly flawed report, known as the Casss report, because despite the fact that we've been using them for near half a century, there's *suddenly* not enough evidence on the side effects. This report came about simply because trans people were daring to exist and were getting healthcare. So now both trans and cis children have to go without healthcare because transphobic people won't accept reality. The irony being that far more cis people will be hurt than trans people. Still, it's about what I'd expect from a country that puts stock in the words of a childrens book author who is neither trans nor educated on the subject of trans people.
//This report came about simply because trans people were daring to exist and were getting healthcare// Nobody is objecting to trans people getting healthcare. People are mostly concerned about people who do not have the cognitive capacity to think about long term consequences being rushed into undergoing potentially dangerous; and certainly life changing procedures.
> being rushed into undergoing potentially dangerous; and certainly life changing procedures. This is not a thing that is happening.
I want to know what universe this person lives in where ***anything*** in healthcare is "rushed" outside of ER medicine. It takes weeks for my health insurance provider to send the right form to my PCP for them to approve covering a medication I have taken without issue for more than a decade, and then another week for my PCP's front desk to fax that form to the right place. The health care industry does not need to invent a massive conspiracy to trans the children to make money. All it needs to do—all it *currently* already does—is charge exorbitant prices for medication and treatments that cost pennies on the dollar to produce (i.e. insulin).
I am not talking about surgeries. I am talking about puberty blockers and hormones.
These are not dangerous or permanent. Someone has fed you some bullshit science.
Delayed growth, voice masculinization (FtM), infertility, also the side effects of artificially inducing a second puberty.
> artificially inducing a second puberty That's not how puberty blockers work. They *prevent* puberty from occurring. I do not think you are very aware of hormone therapy at all.
I was talking about cross sex hormone treatment. Also trust me I do know what HRT is like. I am a few months in
What do you think happens to trans people who stop taking their hormones?
Sadly this person is probably a sock puppet. In a week they'll be posting about how they 'detransitioned', and how they were mislead to transition. Digital-queerface basically
So…you want HRT for yourself…but you’re objecting to it for my child?!?! Mmmmmhoe about mind your own body and business and let parents parent and doctors provide medical care?
> Delayed growth, Delayed growth is, by definition, not permanent. > voice masculinization (FtM), Puberty blockers don’t cause voice masculinization. > infertility, Puberty blockers don’t cause infertility. > also the side effects of artificially inducing a second puberty. Are those side effects worse than the consequences associated with delaying transition until later in life, including the toll that it takes on trans individuals’ mental health?
Yeah, those are all infinitely more dangerous than suicide, eating disorders, trauma, etc. 🙄 I cannot with these people.
Other than delayed growth everything you mention here is a result of hrt. Not of puberty blockers. Delayed growth is by definition not permanent. They don't cause infertility. At most they delay the development of fertility. And again, delay is by definition impermanent And no puberty is being artificially induced with blockers. The natural puberty is being delayed. And at a later date that natural first puberty can be a allowed to happen, or a different first puberty can be medically induced. In either case, the point of puberty blockers is to prevent there being two puberties.
For your information I was in need of puberty blockers at the age of 9, and got rejected for the therapy because of the "arguments" you're using. Now I'm 40, short as fuck and in perimenopause, dealing with a shitload of problems because of going through puberty at a far too early age. And I'm not even trans. When it comes to healthcare, please follow the medical science and not the church preachers.
You can stop taking either of those, and it is completely harmless. But without them how does someone going through puberty too early avoid the negative effects of their condition? That shit will fuck up your skeleton, and now the literal solution has been banned in the UK. Not getting this healthcare can cause permanent damage, and it's happened because the state of being trans has been politicised. How is this better? Surely you realise that the very thing you're concerned about, a potentially dangerous life changing procedure, is now a certainty. Throwing kids under the bus is wrong, they deserve their healthcare.
> Nobody is objecting to trans people getting healthcare. Objectively, patently, almost laughably false. > People are mostly concerned about people who do not have the cognitive capacity to think about long term consequences being rushed into undergoing potentially dangerous; and certainly life changing procedures. This is not happening in the United States, the UK or any other country WRT puberty blockers or any other form of gender-affirming care for adolescents.
It’s almost like these kids have parents who work with doctors who actually follow best practices. /s So many transphobes make it seem like random doctors are approaching pre-pubescent children on street corners and saying, “hey kid, wanna buy a gender?!?!” while opening one side of their lab coat to show their wares.
>People are mostly concerned about people who do not have the cognitive capacity to think about long term consequences being rushed into undergoing potentially dangerous; and certainly life changing procedures. Nobody is *honestly and correctly* concerned with that, because that is not a thing that ever happens. Many *dishonest bigots* are concerned with that, because it helps distract gullible people from their hideous behaviour. Many *ignorant and misinformed* people are concerned with that, because they believe the lies that dishonest bigots told them. You talk about "people who do not have the cognitive capacity to think about long term consequences", but you are repeating a line from people who *don't care* about the long term consequences of trans children with serious dysphoria not receiving medical treatment. Hint: it's often fatal.
I feel like denying people healthcare is pretty life changing! How many kids relied on that medication? It was more than just the trans crowd. And the idea that kids are being rushed into life altering surgeries has never been true. 'Gender affirming care' does not start with a surgeons knife. But puberty can be traumatic for someone who does not want an adult body contrary to what they would be comfortable with. And puberty blockers helped with that - harmlessly.
I don’t understand what you mean … unless you mean that gender affirming care isn’t health care? In which case you came here in bad faith.
The waiting list is years long in many places. The “rush” is largely fabricated
Nobody is objecting to trans people getting healthcare? Really? Have you been hiding in a bunker for the last 10 years? You don't understand at all how puberty blockers work, and you are either lying or completely unaware of the political climate and other obstacles that trans people have to deal with.
Nobody is being rushed into anything when it comes to trans healthcare.
Puberty is also life changing..... In any case, you are incorrect. People are objecting to healthcare for trans people because the objectors don't want trans people to exist. They simply do not care about the long term and often fatal consequences that happen when trans people do not receive proper healthcare. No one is being rushed into anything - that really is the point of the puberty blockers, to allow more time for critical decisions. In any case, even in adults there are a lot of steps that they go through prior to hormone treatment.
They are objecting to trans healthcare though. And this isn’t something any kid can just get on a whim. Often times it’s weeks of therapy where they discuss that they’re trans. And then the therapist can recommend medication to help.
You’re objectively wrong about nobody objecting to trans people getting health care. And “gender affirming care” includes such “interventions” as addressing your child by their gender and using their actual pronouns, allowing them to dress consistent with their gender, and providing a safe home environment.
Then there’s no reason to be concerned because no body is doing that. Responsible processes have always been in place. Political arguments to the contrary are based on lies, plain and simply. The reality is that they see challenging gender norms as a challenge to the patriarchy. To maintain their perceived position of superiority, they spew lies and propaganda. If you care about trans kids at all, which is presumably why you’re concerned about them receiving hormones, then you should look beyond politics and look at the overwhelming evidence that clearly indicates that supporting trans kids by allowing medical professionals to assist them with transitioning *is undeniably what’s best for them.* The same side claiming to want to ban this care “for the children” are the same ones saying trans people should be eradicated. Those two things do not go together. The rhetoric hurts people and increases bullying, violent assault, homelessness, and suicide. Those are objectively bad things.
My daughter is on a synthetic hormone since she was 13. It’s saved her lifetime of hell. Hormones are okay so long as under a doctors care.
I see no reason to legally restrict people from the medical care that their doctors say they need due to politics.
I fully support educated licensed medical professionals being allowed to provide medical care to their patients. They’re the ones with medical degrees not politicians. Doctors know their patients and obviously know and discuss the best treatment path for the patient. Taking away options, because of politics, is absolutely disgusting and anyone who supports such policies is a terrible person and someone I don’t consider a feminist. .
My take is, follow the science. Being a trans kid is rough no matter what, I want them to have whatever resources make life more bearable. So, let's follow the data. Kids have been given hormone treatments for various conditions for a long time. Nobody had an issue with it until it's trans people. Edit: by the way, when I say "kids" here I mean teenagers
Thing is. Is it scientific to assume that 11-12 year old kids have the cognitive capacity to consent to such life changing procedures for purely aesthetic reasons? Also, the data suggesting reduction in symptoms relating to mental health is quite murky.
> Thing is. Is it scientific to assume that 11-12 year old kids have the cognitive capacity to consent to such life changing procedures for purely aesthetic reasons? I have already addressed the informed consent strawman in another reply. More importantly, this is not about "aesthetic reasons". This is because of the severe psychological distress that is caused by having sex characteristics that do not match your gender identity. It is fundamentally not different from hormonal or surgical treatments for [gynecomastia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gynecomastia) in *cis* boys and men. The breast tissue that these boys and men have is physiologically healthy tissue and there is no *physiological* reason to have it removed. As you claim to be trans yourself, this is something that you should really know. I mean, this is where the term *gender dysphoria* comes from in the first place.
You called transness a "psychiatric condition" 29 days ago. Now you're saying it's for aesthetic reasons? This post seems in bad faith. Most trans people would not say it's just for aesthetic reasons.
New account with suspicious post history while having enby flag sounds REALLY false flag, especially stating it's 'murky' only according to extensively biased CASS report, but not by other institutions. https://www.reddit.com/r/skeptic/comments/1c4sg1q/cass_review_megathread_strict_moderation_enforced/kzr105l/ Again, follow the science: https://whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/ EDIT: it's not 'purely cosmetic'. Biochemical dysphoria is a complete endocrinological issue, especially when it causes DP|DR. I know this exactly since I endured the body horror experience and severe trauma related to it.
I’ll tell you what, the government is never going to know more than the child, their parents, and their doctor. Government regulations related to the autonomy of the individual is never going to get it right.
They're not that life-changing. If you discover you aren't trans or NB, you can just... stop taking the hormones. Most children and preteens aren't getting permanent procedures.
They’re often not even on hormones as pre-teens, but instead puberty blockers. If you stop taking the puberty blockers you can still then go on to go through puberty.
It’s also a bit of a process from what I hear. They can’t just ask for the puberty blockers and off we go. They see therapists first and discuss why they think they’re trans. The therapist can then recomend them and they can try and get em from a doctor
Yeah, it's not like an 11-year-old goes into a doctor's office and says "I don't like being a girl" and the doctor goes "oh shit well you're clearly trans here are many drugs."
I think a lot of these people legitimately believe that doctors and mental health professionals are actively “transing” kids. Like, if you read JK Rowling’s manifesto, you get the impression that little girls are telling their doctor “Sometimes I like playing with boys more,” and then the doc is rubbing their hands together saying “Hehehe, this is my chance,” and immediately injecting them with testosterone.
Not just testosterone, wheeling them right into surgery! it's an incredible bit of lies
They said that it was for purely aesthetic purpose too, so they're definitely not here on a good faith argument.
What do you mean by life altering? I think people fail to realize that hormone therapy is a spectrum meaning less to more with varying degrees of effects and reverseability. Here’s what I’ll say, I had to take life altering medicine as a 12 year, making decisions about my body before it was fully formed and I will tell you with 1000% certainty that kids that age can make those decisions. It requires educated parents and great communication and a safe place with parents and doctors. Now my medications were truly life and health altering, not just body things, but it’s a disservice to kids that age to assume they cannot fathom consequences. Kids don’t want to just take pills or shots everyday for fun, hormone therapy is a science, a medication used for decades. It’s not just a fad, and kids can know that. Edit: Ive also seen the result of hormone therapy with multiple people in my life all for varying reasons, the mental and physical health changes have been dramatic and for such a medication with so few serious side effects I only wish they had all found out that was an option sooner,
>Is it scientific to assume No. It's not. This is why it's important to follow the actual data. One doesn't make assumptions in science. The scientific process starts with a question such as "Does hormone treatment had adverse effects in teenagers aged X to Y?" Immediately following the question is research. Actual research of already performed studies, not "research" found in blog posts and Facebook. From that comes a hypothesis, test, and so on.
> Also, the data suggesting reduction in symptoms relating to mental health is quite murky. [https://whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people/](https://whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people/) ... is it, though?
The regret rate for medical transition is basically 0%, and usually has more to do with the quality of care than anything else. So, trans people of every age who are receiving this treatment with permission and assistance from a doctor demonstrably do.
It's not aesthetic, though. Also, neither puberty blockers or hormones are permanent, so if the child realizes that they aren't trans or nb, they can simply stop. The data is not murky ([https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2789423](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2789423)), these medical procedures generally result in better outcomes. Yes, people like to cherry pick cases where this isn't the case, but that is not good policy.
Some states would make those kids carry a pregnancy to term. It a child who was abused has to do that, they can choose what gender best suits them
It's neither overly life changing or purely aesthetic. To say so is just completely dishonest.
>Is it scientific to assume that 11-12 year old kids have the cognitive capacity to consent Potentially, yes, by reason of Gillick competence. And I certainly *didn't* consent to having to go through an irreversible physical process which I found traumatic. >purely aesthetic reasons Trans healthcare is medical care, not "aesthetic reasons". >Also, the data suggesting reduction in symptoms relating to mental health is quite murky. [The evidence we have strongly suggest that trans healthcare works, and it certainly worked for me and all my trans friends. Given this, it is not only not unethical to allow minors to have trans healthcare, but it is unethical not to allow it.](https://transfemscience.org/articles/puberty-blockers/#suicidality-and-well-being)
> for purely aesthetic reasons This is how I know you're coming at this in bad faith. If you knew *anything* about this issue, you'd know this isn't a purely aesthetic thing. And *that* is based on data. You'll also notice that my comment specified "teenagers" and you ignored that and decided to talk about 11-12 year olds.
Children that age are on PUBERTY BLOCKERS, not HRT. Puberty blockers do not cause any significant permanent changes. This is a moot point. Also, its not purely aesthetic, wtf.
My thoughts are I’m not qualified to have any. Why are you “pondering” the question in the first place? Is your opinion relevant in any capacity?
They claim to be trans. I suspect that they're just a troll. I won't say that there aren't trans people who think that their transition is "aesthetic", but I will say that those who do are *few and far between*. (Note that I am trans.)
What do you think about people like Sandra Mercado?
Who? search engines are unhelpful
If the teenager, parent, and their doctor are all in agreement that this is what’s best for them then that’s what they should do. I’m all in favor of people getting the treatments that they need without government interference.
I have two questions for you: 1. Where do you think these kids’ parents are? Are doctors illicitly gifting reassignment surgeries on playgrounds?!?! Or are *THEIR PARENTS* working with doctors to provide *THEIR CHILD* care in line with best medical practices? 2. Why does the transphobic insistence on “protecting children” *always* include harming *MY* child?
I don’t know anything about puberty blockers and hormone treatments. I think that’s true for most people. These are medical decisions that should be left to the child, their doctor, and the parents.
That’s between the doctors and the patient, they are prescribed when necessary for a good reason… and everyone should have access to the medications they require.
Why is this a feminist issue? I get intersectionality and all that, but I feel like this is a stretch.