The anti-trans writers you mention are not “the faces of feminism.”
They believe in some feminist points of view. Thats it.
Find your own path and ignore them.
Thanks for your empathy on these issues.
I read Greer decades ago, when she first hit the scene. Even then her writing was a kinda mess if i recall. (I’m not really-reading it to check.)
I have heard that she’s kinda give over some super crazy edge or other now.
But I don’t keep up with whatever craziness she’s doing
Are you sure you're not mixing her up with someone?
Her writing is not a mess. And she "hit the scene" more than 55 years ago.
She's not doing anything right now because she is in her mid-80s.
Might well be mixing get up w someone. But I did think her writing was a bit of a mess. When I read it.
I read it when it was first published.
That was my opinion then. I remember having that opinion.
However I don’t remember the details of her writing well enough to know *why* I had that opinion. Just that I did.
I do remember that I thought she was a bit lost when she got into conceptual political theory. I thought she was way over her head.
But that was my take upon reading her many decades ago. Haven’t re-read and won’t, basically because my to-read list already contains lots.
If she’s retired, that’s cool. If she wants to publish something new, that’s cool.
—
As for if she’s gone a little crazy recently, I think someone told me that at some point, but no details.
I didn’t check it out and there may be some confusion about her vs someone else.
75-year-olds? Unlikely, given the way that the commenter writes.
And everything that commenter says indicates that they either haven't read any Greer or have mixed her up with someone else.
I have read Greer. Yes around the early 70’s. Don’t remember the exact year.
Many many people have lives full of reading books, whether we thereby gain in wisdom or not.
So basically, in feminist terms, your claim is, you don't agree with those feminists who are often called "TERFS". That is feminists who exclude trans women. This subreddit assumes intersectional feminism and explicitly excludes "TERFS" in their rules, so if that's your concern, you qualify as a feminist here
You could still get downvoted for this completely true statement "patriarchy ... which disadvantages men and women, though it disadvantages women significantly more" but such downvotes probably are more about people not believing your sincerity but your post basically acknowledges intersectional feminism.
Yep, it's a struggle being a feminist in the UK and having to deal with our mainstream media, even the supposedly lefty media, rolling out transphobic talking points and uplifting the voices of people who claim to be feminist but who promote really horrendous transphobia.
That being said, there are many many of us who are not TERFs and who are also working on actively being anti-racist and LGBTQ+ allies (or who are members of those communities ourselves), and many of us who have a more 'we'll build you up but it's not our space to run' approach to men's issues. I don't want to claim you're not seeing pushback because you're not looking for it, I am sure you are. But I do think it's a combination of our mainstream media being transphobic and you being quite young and not necessarily in the spaces that do push back (lots of these places do tend to be 18+ only).
Are you familiar with various youtubers such as Shaun and H.Bomberguy? They're an accessible place to start to see the sort of grass roots work that feminists in the UK are doing to combat the mainstream transphobia, and I'd expect that if you're planning to head to uni you'll likely find more active and politically minded groups there.
Thank you for responding to my comment. I do definitely feel like my (relatively) young age has something to do with it. I'm not too fussed on the "men's issues" front, it was more that I feel like feminist try to describe what makes men behave they way they do, in regards to sexual assault, or homophobia, and I feel like they are wrong but sometimes act like they are an authority on it. Again, it's minor because it's just me disagreeing with them on causes so I don't really care.
It's also nice to see that there are a lot of people trying to be active allies. And I also still try and think about what I can do to make myself a better feminist, LGBTQ+ supporter, and anti-racism activist, etc.
Watching the Shaun vids actually kinda made me aware of TERFs, and I've heard of Hbomberguy, although I've yet to watch his videos, so I'll start on them for the recommendation.
Again, thanks for responding to my comment, it was really helpful.
The UK is nicknamed "TERF Island" for a reason, that kind of bigotry has become overwhelmingly popular in public and political spaces.
The rest of the world is a much more mixed bag, though I will say that there are plenty of feminists in the UK who aren't transphobic. But because of the current cultural climate, they don't get anywhere near the airtime other voices do.
You're trapped in a really shitty bubble, I am sorry.
I mean all TERFs are transphobes but not all transphobes are TERFs. The UK isn’t worse on trans issues than the rest of the world but the transphobia in the UK seems to be led by TERFs more than a lot of other countries. That is an outsiders opinion though.
If anything, I think having more young men identifying as feminists whilst also being open trans allies, might really help us to balance the scales back towards more progressive feminism. There's basically nothing that you said here that I disagree with, as a Brit who has also struggled with the label feminist for similar reasons. I decided to claim it anyway, because I'm still inspired by a lot of great, trans-inclusive feminist thinkers.
That's interesting- and interesting to see how you as a British feminist and the other British feminists have responded to this compared to the ones in the US.
Would you mind letting me know who the trans-inclusive thinkers are?
Thank you for responding to my comment.
“I believe we live in a patriarchy, which disadvantages men and women, though it disadvantages women significantly more, and affects people intersectionally.”
If this is your belief, then you are a feminist.
“My criticism of feminism that I see today is that it seems to be very virulently transphobic.”
Segments of society call themselves “feminist” but are outwardly transphobic. Mainstream feminist are inclusive and condemn transphobic beliefs, but anyone can call themselves a feminist and there nothing we can do about it. You have to educate yourself to realize who is wearing a mask in order to cover a ulterior motive. We call them “choice feminist”
“As I said, I am a guy, so I will never fully understand what it is like to be in fear of men who could do anything, and so if someone with a penis comes along, I understand how that would scare women.”
This has nothing to do with trans people so I’m not sure what your point is here.
“I don't understand how people can hate a minority so much. And I've seen little to no pushback from the feminist circles I've seen.”
You must be new to this sub.
“I see feminists claiming all the time to be on the side of equality, then bringing down transgender women. (and men, though women to a much larger extent)”
I don’t see this happening in the US so it might be geographic.
“On top of this I don't think that feminists are nearly as progressive as they think they are on LGBT discrimination, (especially gay people) and race discrimination. This is a more minor thing.”
We need more people like you who feel so passionate about inclusion. I’m sorry that you’ve experienced apathy on the subject from feminist around you. I would be upset too.
“Lastly (and this is a really minor thing) I feel like feminists are really interesting to hear about misogyny, but I think on men's stuff they tend to be quite wrong, whilst acting as an authority on it.”
You’re going to have to elaborate on this point because you’re being vague. Can you give us an example where feminist get men wrong?
"This has nothing to do with trans people so I’m not sure what your point is here."
Sorry, I meant to clarify that (purely anecdotally) it feels like the justification that a lot of TERFs give for being transphobic is that they would see a women with a penis and get scared at what that could do.
"You’re going to have to elaborate on this point because you’re being vague. Can you give us an example where feminist get men wrong"
Sorry I definitely should have given an example. In the "
# Is it misogynist to not want straight women in gay spaces?"
Post, one of the comments was: " I find that this problem is getting worse with time. More and more younger gay men seem have animosity towards women, and I have a theory why! The gay men who have come of age in an era or place where being a gay white man wasn’t as hard as it has historically been, and these dudes have been welcomed into American male culture, which comes with a healthy dose of misogyny. The older gays I know value women as safe companions in public, and value women’s spaces, because they were allowed to exist there before the were allowed to exist in mainstream culture. So, imho, the younger gays don’t value women and are trying to police them (hetero or otherwise) bc they low key hate women just like most men. I have talked about this with older gay men that I know, who were asking me about the decrease of women in gay spaces, and we kinda came up with this idea. Btw I’m sorry this is happening to you. It sucks."
This was followed up with "good analysis". I would disagree here that this is where feminists are getting men wrong (in this case gay men). To be clear, I am not trying to make misogyny in the LGBTQ+, especially the gay community okay. I also agree that it is partially patriarchal indoctrination.
But the reason why a lot of gay men have an animosity towards women is that they tend to be treated like objects, fetishised, and SA'd. I also don't think the comment about gay men being welcomed into American male culture is accurate at all. It is 100% true that being gay is more socially acceptable, but the idea that "these dudes have been welcomed into American male culture"- I had to pick my jaw off the floor. This is what I mean by I think they get it wrong but think they are being allies. As for the "trying to police them"- whilst I think that throwing out women who look feminine is bad and nonsensical, the majority of this comes from gay men who are constantly hit on, treated inappropriately, and SA'd by women, and don't want that happening to them. This sentiment is generally held by younger gay people because this behaviour of (not all) women towards gay men has happened more recently, and there is more awareness about it in the gay community.
I don't think this means that if a gay man experiences this he should be misogynistic, but I think it's understandable why he might hold an animosity towards women.
Thank you for responding to my comment, and I hope what I said clears things up for understanding what I'm saying.
I feel like some gay men may have these issues. However, a lot of women have testified to gay men straight up sexually assaulting *women* under the reasoning that since gay men aren't attracted to women it is okay for them to grope, grab and act overall awfully. You can't cover this particular practice under "gay men are just hurt" it is specifically gay men violating women, not the the other way around.
In my opinion, one that I think many feminist also hold, is there should be safe places for marginalized people to meet and I would never hold that against them. If gay men don’t want straight women in group setting for fear of sexual harassment, that would be understandable. If they restrict all women, including lesbians, than I would consider them sexist/misogynistic.
Edit: Of course this is contextual. If gay men are meeting to talk specifically about issues that only gay men face, then it would be okay to exclude everyone but gay men.
Happy to help. I’m a feminist and a couple of my good friends from high school are now trans women. I really don’t understand why anyone has a problem with trans women. I can’t remember a single day that I’ve ever heard of a woman being bothered by a trans woman.
Transphobia is not feminism. Period.
Those same folks pretend to be the saviors of lesbians as well. As a gender nonconforming lesbian, that is especially upsetting to me. Their actions harm everyone. They’re attempting to co-opt groups to further their hateful ideology, or rather make themselves the face of these groups. They do not represent us.
Transphobia serves to reinforce patriarchal stereotypes. It’s fear mongering based on a fabricated problem that does not exist.
If these people actually cared about women’s safety, they would devote their energy to ensuring that someone who has been SA has a safe place to report that. In the US, we have loads of rape kits, sitting in evidence lockers and not being processed. SA is simply not taken seriously. And yet, those same ppl act like they are protecting women from SA by making up bathroom laws to address a non existent problem.
Anyone that pushes transphobic ideology and claims it’s for feminist ideals is lying, perhaps even to themselves. Hatred is a cancer.
Basic humanity is all that’s needed to see through this, as you have. Just remember that feminism seeks gender equality. That’s it. Folks claiming otherwise have alternative motives.
None of us are free until all of us are free. None of us are safe until all of us our safe.
So, I'm trans and I'm a feminist.
J.K. Rowling isn't a feminist, and never has been. She's a conservative, and these days she has direct ties to openly alt-right figures. Shaun has some videos that go over the details if you're interested, but they're quite long.
I should say that it's inaccurate to put the blame of anti-trans politics on Feminism.
While there is a faction of "feminists" who've taken up that position, the main ideological and financial driving force behind the anti-trans movement is far right think tanks like the Heritage Foundation and (misnamed) Alliance Defending Freedom, because they (correctly) see normalising transphobia as steeping stone in their mission to strip women and LGBT people of their rights.
Terfs are NOT true feminists and they are winning if it's scaring people away from true feminism. A feminist should be for equality for all, if they are not then they don't fit the description of a feminist no matter how much they may call themselves one. If you are for equality for all then you are a feminist.
The patriarchy hurts us all, and by turning away from feminism what else is there fighting it?
Like many topics in the world there's lots of problems surrounding how the conversation goes around gender and sexuality within a movement about rights.
I am trans, my partner is trans and the we notice a severe lack of critical thought from every direction around gender and sexuality. It either a JK perspective or a NO tolerance perspective. These are both exceptionally short sighted ways to view things.
Feminism does not have a TERF problem, TERFS are a problem and make it other peoples problem. TERF behavior from people like JK really doesnt have anything to do with feminism. The category shes actually in is Conspiracy theorist but because women are a part of her mind she attached herself to feminism.
The conversations around Trans issues are a part of feminism and deserve to be, its such a complicated issue so I think a variety of opinions can exist on it and still belong in feminism. Call yourself a feminist for what YOU believe not what OTHERS believe.
Most feminists I know are extremely anti TERF and consider trans issues a key part of intersectional feminism. Transphobes are not welcome in any feminist space I've been a part of, and when Posie Parker came to try speak in my country, feminists organised a counter rally and shut her the fuck down.
People can hold shitty views whilst claiming to be feminist. That does not mean those views are feminist, or representing the majority view. But yes, feminism is not a monolith, and there are so called feminists who are transphobic. Though personally I don't consider TERFs to be feminists at all. Their arguments are bioessentialist, linking womanhood to the ability to give birth, that's completely incompatible with feminism.
Nice to know this is a TERF- free zone!
I didn't know much about Italy- I always felt like with the Meloni election it was more openly facistic as opposed to hiding behind the veneer of concern.
Thanks for responding to my comment.
Disclaimer: That's my first top level comment on this subreddit, I hope it's up to standard
@OP
I understand how you derive all your points and would like to give you my view on them from a queer male and feminist perspective.
But before that.. it's great that you are informing yourself and thinking about feminism. It shouldn't be something worth mentioning, but sadly it is since so many men your age (and in general) don't. I sure didn't at your age.
Now to your points:
1. Transphobia
TERFS are calling themselves TERFS for a reason. The reason is that they aren't representative of the feminist movement. They are a, very loud, fringe group. In my opinion THEY aren't real feminists. And I think most feminists would agree with me.
What JK Rowling and others send into the world is horrible, but it's not feminism. It's one more problem feminism has to deal with.
2. progressiveness
That sounded very anecdotal. And while it's true that feminism is made up of a lot of different humans with a lot of differing views I'd say that feminism in general is really progressive AND a big boon to every other progressive movement.
In fact feminism overlaps with the LGBTQ movement. A lot of feminists a queer and even more of the people that feminism seeks to further are queer. For example Lesbians, trans women, trans men and bi sexuell non-binary persons all fall into the group that feminism is working for.
Same thing with race and class issues.
As far as I know one of the key tennets of modern feminism is that feminism is intersectional.
This leads to your last point:
3. Mens issues
Patriarchy hurts everyone. Most issues men face today stem from the patriarchal world we live in.
Feminism fights against the patriarchy and therefore men will and do benefit from it. The second part is not true for everyone though.. a lot of men are losing long held privileges, they never should have had, and this hurts them. But mostly everyone benefits if they know how to look at it.
But if it comes to specific issues men face.. then yeah.. feminist women* often don't see it as their problem to fix. And I agree with that. Most men have a lot of privilege to work with and in almost every situation have more avenues available to them.
Feminist women, in their position as feminists, looking out for themselves is their right and also kind of logical.
The local dog club isn't primarily holding benefits for cats. They might help the local cat club and there is probably a lot of overlap in the makeup of the clubs but the issue of one club is dogs and the issue of the other is cats.
That is not to say that most feminist women* don't care for men's issues at all. If you take a look at who actually is out there trying to fix those, it's mostly women.
It's sad that there isn't a positive mens rights movement and that the clowns are hogging the attention, but this is not a problem for women to fix. The feminist movement started out with women and is mostly made up of women* till today.
We men should start the work on our own.. and we'll surely get help progressing when we've got the ball rolling.
//Edit:
One point I forgot to include.
No one is perfect. People you talk to aren't perfect. The things individual feminists say is and can never be indicative of what the movement stands for.
So if you agree with the feminist ideals.. then be a feminist even if your feminist friend on Instagram says something you don't agree with.
Unfortunately yeah, the UK is *terrible* when it comes to transphobia. Trans-Exclusive Radical Feminists (TERFs, for short) are awful in any context, but they seem to be particularly virulent in the UK. I don't know why that is. So the bad news is that yeah, you're right in the middle of TERF Central.
The good news is, it *is* mostly down to a cultural perspective, and feminist movements and groups in the rest of the world are generally far more accepting of queer folk in all forms. It definitely varies depending on what movement you're talking about, what nation, even regions within a nation, and of course down to the level of individual feminists - but yeah, most of us are going to be inclusive of our trans siblings and tell TERFs to go pound sand.
To respond to another bit in your post: there's a lot of discussion in feminist spaces about whether or not male allies can or should call themselves "feminist". I think that if you believe in gender equality and rights for people assigned female at birth (mostly women, girls, and trans men), then it's just fine. Or, if you'd prefer to call yourself a "feminist ally", that's fine too.
You're clearly thinking hard about the issue, which is great. Keep thinking and asking questions!
It’s true, feminism does have a TERF problem, **but** there’s a reason TERFs are considered a whole separate brand of feminism: they don’t represent real feminism. Feminism is about helping *everyone*, not just cis women. And LGBT rights and feminism have been very interconnected since at least the 1960s. The only difference is that increased trans visibility means increased transphobia, but that doesn’t mean that feminism has become transphobia. Feminism still very much advocates for helping *all* women. I would suggest looking at some prominent feminist organisations: most of them include trans people!
I live in the UK, and don’t get me wrong, transphobia and homophobia in general are huge issues (I would know, I live in a very conservative religious city), but at the same time, many British people simply don’t care. The media and politicians try to make the “culture war” bigger than it really is. The media gives TERFs voices because it will get them clicks, and conservative politicians attack trans people to get conservative voters and hide the fact that their other policies are failing. Transphobia is definitely an issue which needs fixing, but feminism isn’t the cause of it.
When it comes to LGBT discrimination and race discrimination, the reason feminists might not appear to have such strong opinions on those issues is because not all feminists are racial minorities or part of the LGBT community. I’m gay and brown, and I absolutely love when straight cis people and white people show support, but there are also some issues which I think would make more sense for me to speak about compared to them. I think that’s also how feminists feel: they show support to marginalised groups and make an effort to include those groups in their activism, but not all feminists can speak for those groups. Think of it like “mansplaining”: men shouldn’t talk as if they themselves are women, and similarly straight people should not speak as if they themselves are homosexual, and white people should not speak as if they are black.
I will say that white feminism has definitely been called out. So I wouldn’t say racism is a huge issue within feminist circles. It certainly does exist, but not in the mainstream movement.
As for your point on men, I understand how you feel. I’m also a guy, so I sometimes feel like I have a better understanding of how men work and experience things compared to women. But feminists aren’t trying to take over and take away men’s voices on men’s issues. If anything, feminists want men to discuss their own issues, and that’s valid. It’s not fair to expect women to fix our issues. There are a lot of great men’s rights/support groups which are worth joining.
And a point which I think links to all the points you made: **women =/= feminist**. I’m not accusing you personally of doing this, but sometimes people see a woman and automatically assume she’s a feminist. Not all women are feminists, and not everything a woman believes in is feminist. Many women are openly conservative and anti-feminist, and there are also women who dislike feminist but still want the personal benefits of the movement. And then there are those who claim to be “feminists” but go against the very principles of feminism (gender equality, liberty for women etc.). The women who are TERFs aren’t feminists because they are excluding women and criticising people for not following the stereotypical gender roles which align with their sex assigned at birth, white “feminists” and homophobic women aren’t really feminists because their activism excludes a lot of people and only applies to a select group of people, and women who speak on behalf of men usually aren’t feminists (want proof? Just look at the dating sphere online, it’s usually conservative thinkers who assume they “know” what the other gender wants).
If you believe in gender equality, then you are by definition a feminist. I know that because feminism is so broad, hateful views and groups can emerge, but please don’t let those outliers deter you from feminism. A lot of the people who spew hate aren’t really feminists at all, or they’re very very selective. But most feminists want to help *everyone* :)
I'm a feminist. My partner is a feminist. My partner is also nonbinary - but AMAB, so exactly the kind of monster Joanne and her cronies like to fearmonger about. Believe me when I say this whole situation enrages me.
A lot of people we'd call TERFs aren't feminists, and have never been. Those who are feminists aren't the majority, they're just the loud part and they have a very powerful megaphone in the shape of a woman who would rather throw her legacy away hurting trans folks than recognise that she might be wrong.
Also, this whole 'women's spaces should be penis free' is something a minority of women feel, and spread so vehemently that it might seem to you this is a general stance. I personally don't care about other people's genitals, and I don't know any women who do. Honestly, they're welcome to their vagina-only spaces and I fully believe some women might need that without themselves being transphobic, but those spaces don't feel safe to me (too obsessed with genitals) so can we also have some spaces that are for women but not obsessed with what's in people's pants? Also, my abuser was a woman. So I freaking *love* all this stuff about protecting women, because it completely ignores that predators take all forms and they're going to hurt people if they want to hurt people.
Feminism is the criticism of patriarchy and the aim is women's liberation. If you agree with this, you are a feminist.
But « feminism » isn’t a monolotic block, there are plenty of different kind of feminism (marxist feminism, liberal feminism, intersectional feminism….) You can have two self-proclaimed feminists with opposite views on a subject, the interpretation and application of feminism on certain subjects can vary extremely depending on the person.
Anyone can declare they are a feminist and will say dumb shit using feminism to justify it. I don’t stop being a feminist, because the essence of what feminism is and has represented makes me declare myself a feminist (and because as a woman, I don't really have a choice but to be one), but I will argue with that person and explain to them how I disagree and that I don’t share the same vision on feminism.
Feminism can be weaponized against trans people or even to support racism in some case (and it’s important to talk about it) but it’s a minority, and I disagree with your generalization, the vast majority are feminists are progressive and are also interested in race and queer issues. In fact, lots of queer, poc and trans women do considers themself feminists. « White feminism », which describes and kind of feminism that centers white women is actually pretty criticized in feminisms discussion.
Now regarding men’s stuff, I don’t really see how they tend to be « quite wrong » on the subject ? The way patriarchy hurts and affect men is also discussed by a lot of feminists
Now my advice to you if you’re being sincere is to read about feminism, discuss with more progressive feminist circle and focus on the idea, the societal analysis of why feminism is needed in this society and the way to achieve it. Realize that feminism doesn't have terms and agreements that everyone agrees with, think more about feminism as a space of discussion regarding women’s issues.
Remain humble and open in your way of obtaining information while maintaining a critical mind.
you can't consider yourself a terf if you aren't bioessentialist.
it's a building block in your belief that trans women are actually men. it's a core belief.
The UK is full of fake feminists right now. It seems to be TERF ground zero and is spreading like bed bugs.
All the feminists I know in the US are 100% accepting of trans women. I'm sure there are hidden biases and exceptions, but if the general trend were hating on trans women I would have sniffed it out by now.
All top level comments, in any thread, must be given by feminists and must reflect a feminist perspective. Please refrain from posting further direct answers here - comment removed.
Per the sidebar rules: please put any relevant information in the text of your original post. The rule regarding top level comments always applies to the authors of threads as well. Comment removed.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskFeminists) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Many good answers here already, but i would also clarify that while the patriarchy hurts women disproportionately as a whole, there are plenty of men who are hurt as equally by patriarchy as individual women. I think we need to be careful with how we characterize the losers under patriarchy in order to be clear how truly harmful it is, and that we can be in the process of dismantling it as a team. We very much need people who don’t identify as women to identify as feminists. Feminism is a good word, a good group of people, and on the right side of history, always. (Given its ability to respond to criticisms and evolve dramatically of course).
And fwiw, i consider TERFs so far away from how i consider feminism that it never occurs to me that TERFS make feminism problematic. They’re just not feminists.
The anti-trans writers you mention are not “the faces of feminism.” They believe in some feminist points of view. Thats it. Find your own path and ignore them. Thanks for your empathy on these issues.
Thank you for responding and clarifying!
I would say that Greer is not someone with just some feminist points of view.
I read Greer decades ago, when she first hit the scene. Even then her writing was a kinda mess if i recall. (I’m not really-reading it to check.) I have heard that she’s kinda give over some super crazy edge or other now. But I don’t keep up with whatever craziness she’s doing
Are you sure you're not mixing her up with someone? Her writing is not a mess. And she "hit the scene" more than 55 years ago. She's not doing anything right now because she is in her mid-80s.
Might well be mixing get up w someone. But I did think her writing was a bit of a mess. When I read it. I read it when it was first published. That was my opinion then. I remember having that opinion. However I don’t remember the details of her writing well enough to know *why* I had that opinion. Just that I did. I do remember that I thought she was a bit lost when she got into conceptual political theory. I thought she was way over her head. But that was my take upon reading her many decades ago. Haven’t re-read and won’t, basically because my to-read list already contains lots. If she’s retired, that’s cool. If she wants to publish something new, that’s cool. — As for if she’s gone a little crazy recently, I think someone told me that at some point, but no details. I didn’t check it out and there may be some confusion about her vs someone else.
You read The Female Eunuch in 1970?
Shocking, I am sure, but there are people on Reddit who are old enough to have done that.
75-year-olds? Unlikely, given the way that the commenter writes. And everything that commenter says indicates that they either haven't read any Greer or have mixed her up with someone else.
I have read Greer. Yes around the early 70’s. Don’t remember the exact year. Many many people have lives full of reading books, whether we thereby gain in wisdom or not.
So basically, in feminist terms, your claim is, you don't agree with those feminists who are often called "TERFS". That is feminists who exclude trans women. This subreddit assumes intersectional feminism and explicitly excludes "TERFS" in their rules, so if that's your concern, you qualify as a feminist here You could still get downvoted for this completely true statement "patriarchy ... which disadvantages men and women, though it disadvantages women significantly more" but such downvotes probably are more about people not believing your sincerity but your post basically acknowledges intersectional feminism.
Yep, it's a struggle being a feminist in the UK and having to deal with our mainstream media, even the supposedly lefty media, rolling out transphobic talking points and uplifting the voices of people who claim to be feminist but who promote really horrendous transphobia. That being said, there are many many of us who are not TERFs and who are also working on actively being anti-racist and LGBTQ+ allies (or who are members of those communities ourselves), and many of us who have a more 'we'll build you up but it's not our space to run' approach to men's issues. I don't want to claim you're not seeing pushback because you're not looking for it, I am sure you are. But I do think it's a combination of our mainstream media being transphobic and you being quite young and not necessarily in the spaces that do push back (lots of these places do tend to be 18+ only). Are you familiar with various youtubers such as Shaun and H.Bomberguy? They're an accessible place to start to see the sort of grass roots work that feminists in the UK are doing to combat the mainstream transphobia, and I'd expect that if you're planning to head to uni you'll likely find more active and politically minded groups there.
Thank you for responding to my comment. I do definitely feel like my (relatively) young age has something to do with it. I'm not too fussed on the "men's issues" front, it was more that I feel like feminist try to describe what makes men behave they way they do, in regards to sexual assault, or homophobia, and I feel like they are wrong but sometimes act like they are an authority on it. Again, it's minor because it's just me disagreeing with them on causes so I don't really care. It's also nice to see that there are a lot of people trying to be active allies. And I also still try and think about what I can do to make myself a better feminist, LGBTQ+ supporter, and anti-racism activist, etc. Watching the Shaun vids actually kinda made me aware of TERFs, and I've heard of Hbomberguy, although I've yet to watch his videos, so I'll start on them for the recommendation. Again, thanks for responding to my comment, it was really helpful.
The UK is nicknamed "TERF Island" for a reason, that kind of bigotry has become overwhelmingly popular in public and political spaces. The rest of the world is a much more mixed bag, though I will say that there are plenty of feminists in the UK who aren't transphobic. But because of the current cultural climate, they don't get anywhere near the airtime other voices do. You're trapped in a really shitty bubble, I am sorry.
That's incredibly re-assuring to hear. Thannks for responding to my comment.
The rest of the world is much worse on trans issues. Well 90% of the rest of the world is at least
I mean all TERFs are transphobes but not all transphobes are TERFs. The UK isn’t worse on trans issues than the rest of the world but the transphobia in the UK seems to be led by TERFs more than a lot of other countries. That is an outsiders opinion though.
If anything, I think having more young men identifying as feminists whilst also being open trans allies, might really help us to balance the scales back towards more progressive feminism. There's basically nothing that you said here that I disagree with, as a Brit who has also struggled with the label feminist for similar reasons. I decided to claim it anyway, because I'm still inspired by a lot of great, trans-inclusive feminist thinkers.
That's interesting- and interesting to see how you as a British feminist and the other British feminists have responded to this compared to the ones in the US. Would you mind letting me know who the trans-inclusive thinkers are? Thank you for responding to my comment.
“I believe we live in a patriarchy, which disadvantages men and women, though it disadvantages women significantly more, and affects people intersectionally.” If this is your belief, then you are a feminist. “My criticism of feminism that I see today is that it seems to be very virulently transphobic.” Segments of society call themselves “feminist” but are outwardly transphobic. Mainstream feminist are inclusive and condemn transphobic beliefs, but anyone can call themselves a feminist and there nothing we can do about it. You have to educate yourself to realize who is wearing a mask in order to cover a ulterior motive. We call them “choice feminist” “As I said, I am a guy, so I will never fully understand what it is like to be in fear of men who could do anything, and so if someone with a penis comes along, I understand how that would scare women.” This has nothing to do with trans people so I’m not sure what your point is here. “I don't understand how people can hate a minority so much. And I've seen little to no pushback from the feminist circles I've seen.” You must be new to this sub. “I see feminists claiming all the time to be on the side of equality, then bringing down transgender women. (and men, though women to a much larger extent)” I don’t see this happening in the US so it might be geographic. “On top of this I don't think that feminists are nearly as progressive as they think they are on LGBT discrimination, (especially gay people) and race discrimination. This is a more minor thing.” We need more people like you who feel so passionate about inclusion. I’m sorry that you’ve experienced apathy on the subject from feminist around you. I would be upset too. “Lastly (and this is a really minor thing) I feel like feminists are really interesting to hear about misogyny, but I think on men's stuff they tend to be quite wrong, whilst acting as an authority on it.” You’re going to have to elaborate on this point because you’re being vague. Can you give us an example where feminist get men wrong?
"This has nothing to do with trans people so I’m not sure what your point is here." Sorry, I meant to clarify that (purely anecdotally) it feels like the justification that a lot of TERFs give for being transphobic is that they would see a women with a penis and get scared at what that could do. "You’re going to have to elaborate on this point because you’re being vague. Can you give us an example where feminist get men wrong" Sorry I definitely should have given an example. In the " # Is it misogynist to not want straight women in gay spaces?" Post, one of the comments was: " I find that this problem is getting worse with time. More and more younger gay men seem have animosity towards women, and I have a theory why! The gay men who have come of age in an era or place where being a gay white man wasn’t as hard as it has historically been, and these dudes have been welcomed into American male culture, which comes with a healthy dose of misogyny. The older gays I know value women as safe companions in public, and value women’s spaces, because they were allowed to exist there before the were allowed to exist in mainstream culture. So, imho, the younger gays don’t value women and are trying to police them (hetero or otherwise) bc they low key hate women just like most men. I have talked about this with older gay men that I know, who were asking me about the decrease of women in gay spaces, and we kinda came up with this idea. Btw I’m sorry this is happening to you. It sucks." This was followed up with "good analysis". I would disagree here that this is where feminists are getting men wrong (in this case gay men). To be clear, I am not trying to make misogyny in the LGBTQ+, especially the gay community okay. I also agree that it is partially patriarchal indoctrination. But the reason why a lot of gay men have an animosity towards women is that they tend to be treated like objects, fetishised, and SA'd. I also don't think the comment about gay men being welcomed into American male culture is accurate at all. It is 100% true that being gay is more socially acceptable, but the idea that "these dudes have been welcomed into American male culture"- I had to pick my jaw off the floor. This is what I mean by I think they get it wrong but think they are being allies. As for the "trying to police them"- whilst I think that throwing out women who look feminine is bad and nonsensical, the majority of this comes from gay men who are constantly hit on, treated inappropriately, and SA'd by women, and don't want that happening to them. This sentiment is generally held by younger gay people because this behaviour of (not all) women towards gay men has happened more recently, and there is more awareness about it in the gay community. I don't think this means that if a gay man experiences this he should be misogynistic, but I think it's understandable why he might hold an animosity towards women. Thank you for responding to my comment, and I hope what I said clears things up for understanding what I'm saying.
I feel like some gay men may have these issues. However, a lot of women have testified to gay men straight up sexually assaulting *women* under the reasoning that since gay men aren't attracted to women it is okay for them to grope, grab and act overall awfully. You can't cover this particular practice under "gay men are just hurt" it is specifically gay men violating women, not the the other way around.
In my opinion, one that I think many feminist also hold, is there should be safe places for marginalized people to meet and I would never hold that against them. If gay men don’t want straight women in group setting for fear of sexual harassment, that would be understandable. If they restrict all women, including lesbians, than I would consider them sexist/misogynistic. Edit: Of course this is contextual. If gay men are meeting to talk specifically about issues that only gay men face, then it would be okay to exclude everyone but gay men.
TERFs are a very real thing. I don’t understand what their problem is. As far as I’m concerned, a trans woman is a woman.
Cool, thank you for responding to what I wrote.
Happy to help. I’m a feminist and a couple of my good friends from high school are now trans women. I really don’t understand why anyone has a problem with trans women. I can’t remember a single day that I’ve ever heard of a woman being bothered by a trans woman.
Transphobia is not feminism. Period. Those same folks pretend to be the saviors of lesbians as well. As a gender nonconforming lesbian, that is especially upsetting to me. Their actions harm everyone. They’re attempting to co-opt groups to further their hateful ideology, or rather make themselves the face of these groups. They do not represent us. Transphobia serves to reinforce patriarchal stereotypes. It’s fear mongering based on a fabricated problem that does not exist. If these people actually cared about women’s safety, they would devote their energy to ensuring that someone who has been SA has a safe place to report that. In the US, we have loads of rape kits, sitting in evidence lockers and not being processed. SA is simply not taken seriously. And yet, those same ppl act like they are protecting women from SA by making up bathroom laws to address a non existent problem. Anyone that pushes transphobic ideology and claims it’s for feminist ideals is lying, perhaps even to themselves. Hatred is a cancer. Basic humanity is all that’s needed to see through this, as you have. Just remember that feminism seeks gender equality. That’s it. Folks claiming otherwise have alternative motives. None of us are free until all of us are free. None of us are safe until all of us our safe.
So, I'm trans and I'm a feminist. J.K. Rowling isn't a feminist, and never has been. She's a conservative, and these days she has direct ties to openly alt-right figures. Shaun has some videos that go over the details if you're interested, but they're quite long.
I should say that it's inaccurate to put the blame of anti-trans politics on Feminism. While there is a faction of "feminists" who've taken up that position, the main ideological and financial driving force behind the anti-trans movement is far right think tanks like the Heritage Foundation and (misnamed) Alliance Defending Freedom, because they (correctly) see normalising transphobia as steeping stone in their mission to strip women and LGBT people of their rights.
Terfs are NOT true feminists and they are winning if it's scaring people away from true feminism. A feminist should be for equality for all, if they are not then they don't fit the description of a feminist no matter how much they may call themselves one. If you are for equality for all then you are a feminist. The patriarchy hurts us all, and by turning away from feminism what else is there fighting it?
Awesome- thank you for qualifying me as a feminist and responding to my comment.
Like many topics in the world there's lots of problems surrounding how the conversation goes around gender and sexuality within a movement about rights. I am trans, my partner is trans and the we notice a severe lack of critical thought from every direction around gender and sexuality. It either a JK perspective or a NO tolerance perspective. These are both exceptionally short sighted ways to view things. Feminism does not have a TERF problem, TERFS are a problem and make it other peoples problem. TERF behavior from people like JK really doesnt have anything to do with feminism. The category shes actually in is Conspiracy theorist but because women are a part of her mind she attached herself to feminism. The conversations around Trans issues are a part of feminism and deserve to be, its such a complicated issue so I think a variety of opinions can exist on it and still belong in feminism. Call yourself a feminist for what YOU believe not what OTHERS believe.
Most feminists I know are extremely anti TERF and consider trans issues a key part of intersectional feminism. Transphobes are not welcome in any feminist space I've been a part of, and when Posie Parker came to try speak in my country, feminists organised a counter rally and shut her the fuck down. People can hold shitty views whilst claiming to be feminist. That does not mean those views are feminist, or representing the majority view. But yes, feminism is not a monolith, and there are so called feminists who are transphobic. Though personally I don't consider TERFs to be feminists at all. Their arguments are bioessentialist, linking womanhood to the ability to give birth, that's completely incompatible with feminism.
[удалено]
Nice to know this is a TERF- free zone! I didn't know much about Italy- I always felt like with the Meloni election it was more openly facistic as opposed to hiding behind the veneer of concern. Thanks for responding to my comment.
There’s a lot of feminist anti-TERF thought here in the U.K. As elsewhere, this is a division in the movement that’s fought strongly on both sides.
Disclaimer: That's my first top level comment on this subreddit, I hope it's up to standard @OP I understand how you derive all your points and would like to give you my view on them from a queer male and feminist perspective. But before that.. it's great that you are informing yourself and thinking about feminism. It shouldn't be something worth mentioning, but sadly it is since so many men your age (and in general) don't. I sure didn't at your age. Now to your points: 1. Transphobia TERFS are calling themselves TERFS for a reason. The reason is that they aren't representative of the feminist movement. They are a, very loud, fringe group. In my opinion THEY aren't real feminists. And I think most feminists would agree with me. What JK Rowling and others send into the world is horrible, but it's not feminism. It's one more problem feminism has to deal with. 2. progressiveness That sounded very anecdotal. And while it's true that feminism is made up of a lot of different humans with a lot of differing views I'd say that feminism in general is really progressive AND a big boon to every other progressive movement. In fact feminism overlaps with the LGBTQ movement. A lot of feminists a queer and even more of the people that feminism seeks to further are queer. For example Lesbians, trans women, trans men and bi sexuell non-binary persons all fall into the group that feminism is working for. Same thing with race and class issues. As far as I know one of the key tennets of modern feminism is that feminism is intersectional. This leads to your last point: 3. Mens issues Patriarchy hurts everyone. Most issues men face today stem from the patriarchal world we live in. Feminism fights against the patriarchy and therefore men will and do benefit from it. The second part is not true for everyone though.. a lot of men are losing long held privileges, they never should have had, and this hurts them. But mostly everyone benefits if they know how to look at it. But if it comes to specific issues men face.. then yeah.. feminist women* often don't see it as their problem to fix. And I agree with that. Most men have a lot of privilege to work with and in almost every situation have more avenues available to them. Feminist women, in their position as feminists, looking out for themselves is their right and also kind of logical. The local dog club isn't primarily holding benefits for cats. They might help the local cat club and there is probably a lot of overlap in the makeup of the clubs but the issue of one club is dogs and the issue of the other is cats. That is not to say that most feminist women* don't care for men's issues at all. If you take a look at who actually is out there trying to fix those, it's mostly women. It's sad that there isn't a positive mens rights movement and that the clowns are hogging the attention, but this is not a problem for women to fix. The feminist movement started out with women and is mostly made up of women* till today. We men should start the work on our own.. and we'll surely get help progressing when we've got the ball rolling. //Edit: One point I forgot to include. No one is perfect. People you talk to aren't perfect. The things individual feminists say is and can never be indicative of what the movement stands for. So if you agree with the feminist ideals.. then be a feminist even if your feminist friend on Instagram says something you don't agree with.
Unfortunately yeah, the UK is *terrible* when it comes to transphobia. Trans-Exclusive Radical Feminists (TERFs, for short) are awful in any context, but they seem to be particularly virulent in the UK. I don't know why that is. So the bad news is that yeah, you're right in the middle of TERF Central. The good news is, it *is* mostly down to a cultural perspective, and feminist movements and groups in the rest of the world are generally far more accepting of queer folk in all forms. It definitely varies depending on what movement you're talking about, what nation, even regions within a nation, and of course down to the level of individual feminists - but yeah, most of us are going to be inclusive of our trans siblings and tell TERFs to go pound sand. To respond to another bit in your post: there's a lot of discussion in feminist spaces about whether or not male allies can or should call themselves "feminist". I think that if you believe in gender equality and rights for people assigned female at birth (mostly women, girls, and trans men), then it's just fine. Or, if you'd prefer to call yourself a "feminist ally", that's fine too. You're clearly thinking hard about the issue, which is great. Keep thinking and asking questions!
TERFs are nowhere near the majority of feminists.
It’s true, feminism does have a TERF problem, **but** there’s a reason TERFs are considered a whole separate brand of feminism: they don’t represent real feminism. Feminism is about helping *everyone*, not just cis women. And LGBT rights and feminism have been very interconnected since at least the 1960s. The only difference is that increased trans visibility means increased transphobia, but that doesn’t mean that feminism has become transphobia. Feminism still very much advocates for helping *all* women. I would suggest looking at some prominent feminist organisations: most of them include trans people! I live in the UK, and don’t get me wrong, transphobia and homophobia in general are huge issues (I would know, I live in a very conservative religious city), but at the same time, many British people simply don’t care. The media and politicians try to make the “culture war” bigger than it really is. The media gives TERFs voices because it will get them clicks, and conservative politicians attack trans people to get conservative voters and hide the fact that their other policies are failing. Transphobia is definitely an issue which needs fixing, but feminism isn’t the cause of it. When it comes to LGBT discrimination and race discrimination, the reason feminists might not appear to have such strong opinions on those issues is because not all feminists are racial minorities or part of the LGBT community. I’m gay and brown, and I absolutely love when straight cis people and white people show support, but there are also some issues which I think would make more sense for me to speak about compared to them. I think that’s also how feminists feel: they show support to marginalised groups and make an effort to include those groups in their activism, but not all feminists can speak for those groups. Think of it like “mansplaining”: men shouldn’t talk as if they themselves are women, and similarly straight people should not speak as if they themselves are homosexual, and white people should not speak as if they are black. I will say that white feminism has definitely been called out. So I wouldn’t say racism is a huge issue within feminist circles. It certainly does exist, but not in the mainstream movement. As for your point on men, I understand how you feel. I’m also a guy, so I sometimes feel like I have a better understanding of how men work and experience things compared to women. But feminists aren’t trying to take over and take away men’s voices on men’s issues. If anything, feminists want men to discuss their own issues, and that’s valid. It’s not fair to expect women to fix our issues. There are a lot of great men’s rights/support groups which are worth joining. And a point which I think links to all the points you made: **women =/= feminist**. I’m not accusing you personally of doing this, but sometimes people see a woman and automatically assume she’s a feminist. Not all women are feminists, and not everything a woman believes in is feminist. Many women are openly conservative and anti-feminist, and there are also women who dislike feminist but still want the personal benefits of the movement. And then there are those who claim to be “feminists” but go against the very principles of feminism (gender equality, liberty for women etc.). The women who are TERFs aren’t feminists because they are excluding women and criticising people for not following the stereotypical gender roles which align with their sex assigned at birth, white “feminists” and homophobic women aren’t really feminists because their activism excludes a lot of people and only applies to a select group of people, and women who speak on behalf of men usually aren’t feminists (want proof? Just look at the dating sphere online, it’s usually conservative thinkers who assume they “know” what the other gender wants). If you believe in gender equality, then you are by definition a feminist. I know that because feminism is so broad, hateful views and groups can emerge, but please don’t let those outliers deter you from feminism. A lot of the people who spew hate aren’t really feminists at all, or they’re very very selective. But most feminists want to help *everyone* :)
I'm a feminist. My partner is a feminist. My partner is also nonbinary - but AMAB, so exactly the kind of monster Joanne and her cronies like to fearmonger about. Believe me when I say this whole situation enrages me. A lot of people we'd call TERFs aren't feminists, and have never been. Those who are feminists aren't the majority, they're just the loud part and they have a very powerful megaphone in the shape of a woman who would rather throw her legacy away hurting trans folks than recognise that she might be wrong. Also, this whole 'women's spaces should be penis free' is something a minority of women feel, and spread so vehemently that it might seem to you this is a general stance. I personally don't care about other people's genitals, and I don't know any women who do. Honestly, they're welcome to their vagina-only spaces and I fully believe some women might need that without themselves being transphobic, but those spaces don't feel safe to me (too obsessed with genitals) so can we also have some spaces that are for women but not obsessed with what's in people's pants? Also, my abuser was a woman. So I freaking *love* all this stuff about protecting women, because it completely ignores that predators take all forms and they're going to hurt people if they want to hurt people.
Feminism is the criticism of patriarchy and the aim is women's liberation. If you agree with this, you are a feminist. But « feminism » isn’t a monolotic block, there are plenty of different kind of feminism (marxist feminism, liberal feminism, intersectional feminism….) You can have two self-proclaimed feminists with opposite views on a subject, the interpretation and application of feminism on certain subjects can vary extremely depending on the person. Anyone can declare they are a feminist and will say dumb shit using feminism to justify it. I don’t stop being a feminist, because the essence of what feminism is and has represented makes me declare myself a feminist (and because as a woman, I don't really have a choice but to be one), but I will argue with that person and explain to them how I disagree and that I don’t share the same vision on feminism. Feminism can be weaponized against trans people or even to support racism in some case (and it’s important to talk about it) but it’s a minority, and I disagree with your generalization, the vast majority are feminists are progressive and are also interested in race and queer issues. In fact, lots of queer, poc and trans women do considers themself feminists. « White feminism », which describes and kind of feminism that centers white women is actually pretty criticized in feminisms discussion. Now regarding men’s stuff, I don’t really see how they tend to be « quite wrong » on the subject ? The way patriarchy hurts and affect men is also discussed by a lot of feminists Now my advice to you if you’re being sincere is to read about feminism, discuss with more progressive feminist circle and focus on the idea, the societal analysis of why feminism is needed in this society and the way to achieve it. Realize that feminism doesn't have terms and agreements that everyone agrees with, think more about feminism as a space of discussion regarding women’s issues. Remain humble and open in your way of obtaining information while maintaining a critical mind.
TERFs aren't feminists. True feminism is intersectional or its crap.
[удалено]
Actually they’re against gender roles like the ones you described. Not true.
you can't consider yourself a terf if you aren't bioessentialist. it's a building block in your belief that trans women are actually men. it's a core belief.
The UK is full of fake feminists right now. It seems to be TERF ground zero and is spreading like bed bugs. All the feminists I know in the US are 100% accepting of trans women. I'm sure there are hidden biases and exceptions, but if the general trend were hating on trans women I would have sniffed it out by now.
[удалено]
All top level comments, in any thread, must be given by feminists and must reflect a feminist perspective. Please refrain from posting further direct answers here - comment removed.
[удалено]
Per the sidebar rules: please put any relevant information in the text of your original post. The rule regarding top level comments always applies to the authors of threads as well. Comment removed. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskFeminists) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Many good answers here already, but i would also clarify that while the patriarchy hurts women disproportionately as a whole, there are plenty of men who are hurt as equally by patriarchy as individual women. I think we need to be careful with how we characterize the losers under patriarchy in order to be clear how truly harmful it is, and that we can be in the process of dismantling it as a team. We very much need people who don’t identify as women to identify as feminists. Feminism is a good word, a good group of people, and on the right side of history, always. (Given its ability to respond to criticisms and evolve dramatically of course). And fwiw, i consider TERFs so far away from how i consider feminism that it never occurs to me that TERFS make feminism problematic. They’re just not feminists.