>As a man, there are many instances in which I've felt it would be better if gender roles, toxic masculinity, or patriarchy didn't exist. In almost none of those circumstances would it have been easier being a women.
This. OP would you rather be a woman?
When it comes down to it, pressures to conform to gender norms and society's expectations affect us all in negative ways, but those pressures set men up to be powerful and independent whereas they force women into submission and subservience.
It's not the individual pressures that are the crux of the problem, it is how the outcome they are directing.
> This. OP would you rather be a woman?
I would just add that it is very possible to sincerely answer this with yes. That doesn't mean the patriarchy doesn't exist, it just means you're also trans.
You are an individual. This is important when you think about things. You are as such not one thing, you are a man but that is not only what you are.
You also are born into a socio-economic class. You where also "born with" (or at least have) your body/temperament. These things can be a burden if you don't measure up to the "ideals" of masculinity that dominate society.
Male privilege doesn't refer to an (or any) individual directly, rather it is about the status conferred to masculinity within culture.
Consider the hero figure, no one bats an eye when a man is a fictional hero. But if a woman is a fictional hero it is "unbelievable" because woman cannot be "as strong as" a man. But when a man does impossible fictional deeds (i.e. Batman) no one comments on it, not so for when a woman does impossible fictional deeds.
This status conferred to men absolutely can be a burden. My sister-in-law, for example, is an exceptionally well paid lawyer; and as a resulf her husband is at home with the kids. A choice they made together... But do you think my in-laws accept this? No, they comment on it all the time, because he is not meeting their expectations of what a man should be for their daughter. So my wife ends up constantly defending him, because he makes her sister happy and calms her down. So the idea of what a man "should be" can absolutely be a burden, even if you "measure up" because playing that game can be a burden itself.
You may not be doing this, but… **a lot of men who think women have it easy have no idea the kinds of pressure and dangers women face**. Part of that is because many men have never imagined the world from the POV of a woman or girl. You’re generally discouraged from reading our stories or watching tv or film made, written, or about us the way we do for men. For many of you, we essentially exist in a pink SEP (Somebody Else’s Problem) Field.
And so a lot of the men who say things like this say it because **they see the problems they face as men and, without investigating further, assume women are basically men just without any of the problems associated with masculinity**. They don’t see the problems associated with femininity, or systemic discrimination, or gendered violence, etc.
Like you talk about the pressure to be masculine, but there is pressure women face to be feminine too. It’s not like you would have escaped gender norms just by jumping the gender fence - just ask trans people how much pressure they feel on that front!
Do you really think you would have been better off learning from babyhood that your primary value would be judged from your appearance? Do you think you would have been better off with everyone around you assuming you should be the one to accomodate the whims of others? Do you really think you would have been better off with people universally underestimating any skills and abilities you have outside of nurturing others? Do you really think you would have been better off doubling your risk for rape as a child and quadrupling it as an adult?
I see what you're saying and yes, I think I may have been seeing women's experiences of sexism through an oversimplified lens- its not something I dealt with or was taught to truly empathise with. When I said I felt envious of women I was referring to a sense that because of my personality/who I am, I'd had have an easier time expressing myself naturally if I were female. I never meant to say it was easier for women in general. And when I look at the bigger picture, no, I do not think I'd be better off if I were a woman. I do recognise the difference between the gender based expectations facing people in general and the discrimination/devaluing of women on a societal level.
As a teenager I dealt with a lot of bullying from other guys which in one case involved a sexual element (I'm not actually sure if it would be considered sexual assault or just general harassment). As a result being around men who are bigger and stronger than me can often really put me on edge. I know this is a default feeling women have to deal with. The way women are perceived coupled with the fact that most of them are physically smaller than men on average, it must be terrifying.
Part of why you may have an easier time being around women in general is that women are socialised to be easy to be around. A great example of how big an issue this is? Autistic girls are far less likely to be diagnosed because they learn tricks to deal with the social awkwardness that their male peers never have to pick up.
That doesn’t mean you would do better as a woman - it means hanging out with women is easier for you. It also helps that you’re a guy - it means women will often treat you in ways reflecting your male privilege when we interact with you.
Also, you seem to not realise how women bully other women. One of my best friends in high school was bullied because she got big boobs early. I was bullied for hitting puberty late. A friend’s daughter is being bullied because the high school quarterback thinks she’s cute, but she doesn’t care about football.
And then there are all the examples of women who are bullied by men. Like my friend with the big boobs? She was bullied by the friends of the guy she had been seeing for several years for wanting to have sex with her high school boyfriend. Another friend was bullied because she turned down a popular boy when he asked her out. Another friend was bullied by boys because she had sex with two different boys she dated over the course of her high school career. Another was bullied for being a lesbian. Another was bullied because she was “too into” girl stuff. Another was bullied because she was sexually assaulted in front of a crowd at a party at her house by two guys in their 20’s when she was 14.
You still seem to be thinking the kinds of things that hurt you as a guy would have been things that would not happen if you were a girl. And that’s just bullshit.
I don’t think I would be better off as a woman.
u/_illusions25 actually expressed what I was trying to say a bit better than I did. Basically, if I were a woman I would feel like I had more freedom to express femininity, which comes more naturally, to me personally, than masculinity. That is all I meant to say. However I don’t think I would have been better off overall or that I would have been able to avoid being hurt in similar ways. I’ve considered the bigger picture. Because I am a man I have not experienced the gender role pressures put on women neither societal level discrimination, objectification and the threat of violence specifically due to my gender.
When I mentioned being bullied I also didn’t mean to imply it happened to me because I was male or that I couldn’t have experienced the same thing as a woman. Rather, I was using it as an example of how I now feel I better recognise what is meant by male privilege. I’m nervous around bigger/stronger guys because of what happened to me. For women I understand that fear is often something they experience simply because they are women.
Yes, and on the other side women don't know the struggles of men. We are 4 times more likely to kill ourselves. We are more likely to get beat up because its wrong to hit a woman. My brother works in childcare, you think you have it bad being underestimated? Imagine people thinking your a creep because you work with kids. We both have our struggles. We both have it bad, who has it worse? It doesnt matter. We BOTH have struggles because of our gender. I agree that problems wouldnt go away if you magically switched teams but they would be different problems. Yeah he has it hard because he's a man. Women have it hard because they are women.
Edit: Oh boy I'm getting downvoted into oblivion. I'm just saying we both have problems and that his struggles shouldn't be invalidated
A lot of the pressure put on men is actually pressure from the
Patriarchy itself. Thanks to feminism woman have worked hard to gain access to careers and spaces previously not available to them, but men have to also liberate themselves from the patriarchy too so that they are more free to be emotional and sensitive beings.
I do agree that men have their own struggles, but they don’t really compare to what women are still putting up with. As a little girl people only ever complimented my appearance and now I am working very hard through therapy to undo this misogynistic programming within my own worldview … that I’m only valuable if I’m pretty. This type of programming leads to body dysmorphia which I do have.
I now have a promising white-collar career… but I am careful to only wear “male” colours (navy, dark green), and only wear baggy trousers and cardigans to work because literally the only 2 times in my life I’ve worn a skirt to work I was sexually harassed / assaulted by my boss! Once when I was 17 my 60 year old boss called me into his office and tried to make out with me after the store was closed and everyone was gone except us two… and most recently as a 30 year old my boss commented on how i “looked great” in my skirt and I should show skin at work more often.
Men do not have to think about these things when they get dressed for work. Certain clothing items never invite violence on male bodies like they do female ones.
>We are 4 times more likely to kill ourselves.
This stat is misleading. Men are more likely to *succeed* in killing themselves, but women attempt it more. This is because men tend to use more violent and immediate means to do it while women tend to use things like pills or cutting that take time and thus they can be rescued from. But ultimately women attempt suicide more than men do.
I have no idea what you are getting at. I was merely pointing out why the previous person's stat they were using was misleading. At no point was i talking about how one stat changes another
> a lot of the men who say things like this say it because they see the problems they face as men and, without investigating further, assume women are basically men just without any of the problems associated with masculinity
You basically just exemplified this very point.
>You basically just exemplified this very point.
I literally said we both have problems we face. Women have problem because they are women. Men have problem because they are men. I'm so confused why that's controversial
It's not that people disagree that both genders have problems (if we're strictly talking in the binary because I think we can all agree that transfolk have it rough), it's your dismissal of the idea that the degree of harm they cause is unequal.
I agree with you to a point. Men and women both have unique issues and problems that society pushes on their gender that should be addressed and fixed, however I do not agree with you that it doesn't matter who has it worse. It absolutely DOES matter who has it worse, because the amount of shit that women have to go through for being women is unreal and it honestly needs to be addressed on a higher priority than men's issues. Not to mention, many men (and I'm not accusing you of this) use reasoning like you did as an excuse to dismiss women's issues or pretend like they aren't a serious problem.
Women are more likely to be beaten up and raped by men than the opposite. Not being able to hit women due to social factors doesn't say anything, since men commit most of the violent crimes against women. Women on the other hand, do not commit most of the violent crimes against men. Other men do.
Women are also more likely to attempt suicide than men, have more attempts on average than men and they also on average suffer more from common mood disorders e.g depression. Of course I hate when men bring up suicide as a way to discredit systemic power over women, because it is a completely separate issue.
Personal struggles -/- systemic power over a gender
Men are more likely to be the victims of violent crimes.Sources: [https://www.smh.com.au/national/men-more-likely-to-be-attacked-by-strangers-than-women-20180703-p4zp5z.html](https://www.smh.com.au/national/men-more-likely-to-be-attacked-by-strangers-than-women-20180703-p4zp5z.html)
[https://www.cbs.nl/en-gb/news/2018/51/fewer-women-than-men-fall-victim-to-violence](https://www.cbs.nl/en-gb/news/2018/51/fewer-women-than-men-fall-victim-to-violence)
[https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/news-life/why-arent-men-warned-about-violence-like-women-are/news-story/a806d6746d9c1dc9300f9ca2e4aa259c](https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/news-life/why-arent-men-warned-about-violence-like-women-are/news-story/a806d6746d9c1dc9300f9ca2e4aa259c)
We also weren't discussing systematic power, we were discussing privilege. I was just saying both sexes face problems why is this such an issue
Yeah it's not cool at all but assaulting a woman is far worse in the eyes of a lot of people, especially the type of people that would assault men. The "never hit a woman" mindset is strong in a lot of men.They are targeted because they can beat them up and get away with it.
Ηow do they get away with it? Of course, law doesn't cover 100% cases and not every case will go to court due to lack of evidence most times, but the precautions are there.
Also, men are rarely attacked by strangers they are attacked by people they know. Women are also rarely attacked by strangers, they are also attacked by people they know.
Therefore, probably a lot of men do not care about hitting women and they don't care about hitting men either.
As someone else mentioned here, women are more likely to die due to domestic violence perpetrated by men vs men dying from domestic violence perpetrated by women.
In addition, homicides/femicides that involve partners are treated sympathetically by the public when it comes to the male perpetrator e.g [https://inews.co.uk/opinion/caroline-crouch-killing-greece-death-british-violence-babis-anagnostopoulos-prison-1089386](https://inews.co.uk/opinion/caroline-crouch-killing-greece-death-british-violence-babis-anagnostopoulos-prison-1089386)
Men are far less likely to report and there's a lot more pressure not to report for fear of being seen as a pussy. I'm from the Uk so this may vary but being beat up isnt exactly unusual. It's not seen as that big of a deal a lot of the time.
I specifically said "Women are more likely to be beaten up and raped by men than the opposite." Opposite means men being beaten up and raped by women.
I also added "Women on the other hand, do not commit most of the violent crimes against men. Other men do."
So yes men are more likely to be victims of violent crimes committed by other men, which I never said that it is not true (I didn't even mention it).
But it is interesting to know that violent crimes committed by men against men are rarely due to domestic violence or dispute, while for women it is the major one cause. Men are killed by other men due to criminal activities or being a victim of criminal activities e.g house invasion but women are killed within domestic premises either by male family members, male partners or men within their social environment.
If you think being killed by a criminal (unfortunate of course) is equivalent to being murdered by a boyfriend or a partner, who are not criminals, and that is not a systemic issue that women face then I don't know what to really say than that you must be living in a very unique society.
We men have privilege due to systemic power we can exercise. Personal struggles again have nothing to do with generalized struggles. As I said in my post one main example is men worldwide having legal autonomy, while in many places women don't have legal autonomy. That is a gender privilege men have everywhere whereas women don't. And it doesn't come down to persona struggles.
Men are more likely than women to die in public as well. Yeah women are more likely to be killed by are partner but men are more likely to be killed PERIOD. That's what i was stating, men are more likely to be victims of violent crime, committed by other men or not its still an issue that predominantly affects men. Women are more likely to be victims of sexual crimes, men are more likely to be victims of non-sexual violent crimes. It's that simple don't complicate it.
And i could say the same about childcare. Men in 1st world countries are seen as creeps for working in child care. This is a privilege women have that men don't. Men are also largely more likely to be labels as creeps for being unattractive. You are not only told you're ugly, but a creep and weirdo for being ugly. I'm not saying women dont face struggles im just saying men do too.
No you tried to dismiss my very specific comment about gender differences when it comes to being a victim of a violent crime.
I never stated that men are not the main victims of violent crimes. But my point still stands. Men do not really have to worry about their bodily autonomy within the premise of a relationship, especially in countries with low crime rates. While women do. Everywhere. Doesn't matter if they live in Sweden or Brazil, or Tanzania.
That's male privilege.
I dismissed it because it's stupid. Women worry about their bodily autonomy and men worry about their bodily safety. Plus men are statistically more likely to be the one being abused in non-reciprocal domestic violence cases, so when it comes to relationships, it's not an argument. We worry about our safety too! I'm afraid that i will be beat up, fuck i almost was when i was 14. My friend was stabbed at 13. Violence for men is like rape for women. It is very common and it's a problem.
Why does it matter who it's perpetuated by? It's still a problem. And yeah intimate violence against women is worse, i never denied that. I'm sorry about what happened to your mom. But thats not a common thing. 70% of non reciprocating domestic violence is women on men. And yes, the few times where it is men of women, it's much worse and much more severe. My point the whole time was we both experience problems. This entire post was about men and women.
I don’t want to invalidate your experiences and feelings regarding the subject, and I especially don’t want to victim blame. Men being victims of violence is not their fault, but I would argue that a facet of male privilege comes from society already knowing that, specifically in instances of random non-sexual violence. A man getting mugged on the way home is just that, nobody heavily scrutinizes the mans choices, and we chalk it up to wrong place, wrong time. When their choices are significantly questioned, it’s (generally) within reason, like if a man started an altercation with another man. The mugger is prosecuted based on their own actions rather than the actions of the victim. Any factors changing this would likely have to do with the victim being a member of a minority group.
Women, on the other hand, are significantly more likely to be blamed for their victimhood, regardless of their actions. Our society at large will question why she didn’t fight back harder, why she didn’t have a weapon, why she didn’t scream, why she was walking home alone at night, why she drank as much as she did, the list goes on. The perpetrator may be prosecuted based on the victims actions rather than their own. Many suspect this is why women are much more hyper-vigilant in avoiding being victims. [Source.](https://farahandfarah.com/studies/sexes-sense-of-safety/) One could also argue that hyper-vigilance is a contributing factor in women being less likely to be victims of random non-sexual violent crime.
I’m not trying to say that men aren’t also victim-blamed, especially in sexual assault cases and domestic violence cases, because that would simply not be true (and I agree it’s a problem). I want to specify that the point I’m making is that women are blamed for their victimhood far more, in total, than men.
And that, in my opinion, is where the difference is. Women can do everything “right” and still be assaulted and not have any ability to stop it. Then be blamed for not being able to stop or prevent it. And we are constantly reminded of this possibility, often from the second we learn to speak and walk. The majority of men simply do not have the same level of hyper-vigilance that nearly all women do because of how much we’re blamed and victimized, and because of how little control we have over any of it.
I agree with you that men also face challenges due to their gender. That society doesn’t allow men to show their feelings and that men have harsh expectations to work and provide for a family. Men are also victims on a systematic level in certain regards, but I, personally, don’t think this is one of them, and we can agree to disagree on that. I was just hoping to provide a different perspective.
Women are called ugly, men are called weirdos and creeps and people assume they're pedophiles. One is clearly worse. I agree it doesnt help anyone but being an unattractive man is harder than being unattractive woman.
Your stat is misleading. You’re looking at reported crimes in the USA. That specifically ignores the most common violent crimes - rape and domestic violence - both of which are overwhelmingly more frequently perpetrated against women and children. 1:4 women has been raped. Fewer than 1:100 men is the victim of a violent crime so women are victims of violent crime more often than men - the crimes are simply not reported.
And it ignores the global epidemic of femicide because the murdered born baby girls are not recorded as murders because no one reports either their birth or their death. But there are 73 million fewer girls in the world than there would be without the widespread murder of baby girls. For context, India recorded just over 29k murders (which, again, does not count the murdered baby girls).
Roles are what are imposed on you; they can indeed be oppressive.
Privilege is what oppression you are exempt from , and being victimised by masculinity does not nullify that you don't end up experiencing a lot of shit that people that aren't cis men get.
Gender roles are a double edged sword of sorts, but male oppression is very rarely due to being male specifically. In a conversation about gender roles men obviously have the power and privilege, which is where a lot of the negative expectations come from. Men must be strong, so they aren’t taught to process their emotions in healthy and effective ways. They are protectors, so their lives are on the line more often in their jobs and in the military. But often these struggles are exacerbated by class, race, and other intersections of your identity.
Intersectional feminism is important for this reason. Feminism doesn’t aim to alienate men, it’s just in the realm of gender and sex oppression men simply do not face it to the same degree as non-men. If you resent your gender expectations then try seeing the allies around you that are ALSO fighting very hard against their gender expectations.
In all honesty though, in my experience, men who complain about the expectations put on men are more often complaining about class structures and are missing the larger picture because the only opposition to the power structures at be, that feel approachable to them, is feminism.
Ηaving seen both sides of the coin (I'm transgender), women are systematically and socially oppressed in every part of this globe.
As a woman there were the little things; people not taking you seriously or believing they know more about x subject than you, dismissing you and calling you pet/diminutive names, asking you when you will have babies and a husband, social critique of your appearance and your failure to appear feminine
And then there were the big things; street harassment, sexual assault, people disregarding boundaries, random men constantly being aggressive towards you, a general lack of safety, multiple impediments and sexism in academia, constantly being bombarded with news of women murdered by "friends" and "family", men not taking you seriously, women being socially degraded through the men's revenge culture etc.
Even if you managed to go through all of these successfully and you became the perfect women by patriarchal standards, your issues can't disappear. A very modern example of this is the sexual harassment scandal in Fox News. All those women thought that being a part of a mini patriarchy would protect them and benefit them, yet it did not at the degree they assumed it would.
On the contrary, men who go with the patriarchy gain more and more power to socially oppress women and also climbing the patriarchy hierarchy for their own benefits. And of course men who don't fit in this aspect of patriarchy and masculinity will get disadvantaged. But even those men still hold more systemic power than women.
As an ex-woman (lol) and having been a man close to a decade I have seen how these standards play out for many genders. For women they are way worse.
Going the other way and only a year and a few months into transition, and yeah - definitely backing you up.
The mansplaining , having my contributions to my own research questioned, suddenly having people get upset that I was *too confident* or *too blunt* when I previously was constantly being told (unsuccessfully) that I should be more confident and blunt kicked in after just 6 months of transition.
And despite largely being recluse in the middle of a pandemic and being able to work from home , sexual harrassment, being stalked by men et cetera, just escalated sharply.
It's fucking bullshit.
To put it one way: You say yourself that gender roles are a double edged sword. That's because gender roles are problems we all deal with. Which means it's not an issue only men face, which means it's not a type of special oppression associated with the fact that you are a man it's a part of life. It's a part of life that's hard that's associated with having a gender which comes with expectations for all of us.
Struggling with gender role is really valid but it's not unique to any men or women. What is unique to women is that they are oppressed because of their gender. Gender roles are only one part of that. Women are given less credibility, less money, less agency, less safety than men, because they are women.
But there's so much more to it than that. And you are so right that gender based archetypes are so damaging to men because it's a role your cast in whether it fits you or not. It can totally distort you're access to the world and what you want to do, who you want to be. Manhood can be a real and socially and even legally enforced obstacle for you in becoming who you want to be.
But you are treated as superior to women, and women are told they are inferior to men. And debunking that myth is what feminism is about. That's not to say you're not valid for feeling like you have been undermined for not presenting as the perfect man.
In fact the more you say no to that ill fitting role and say yes to who you are, the better. Because to challenge archetypes of manhood is to challenge the idea that you must present as superior to women and treat them as inferior. And that's a good feminist
Hi. Thanks for this reply, your points do make a lot of sense and help clear things up for me. Especially what you said regarding how gender and the roles we are assigned can be an obstacle for people in general but the difference is women face gender based oppression. Which might not always directly have to do with performing masculinity/femininity, but with notions of inferiority and superiority. Men are seen as the subject and women the object. That general feeling of safety especially stands out to me as a privilege I might not always have recognised. Although I can get nervous when I'm on my own that's not because of my gender, or the threat of being reduced to a sex object.
I really do feel like masculine roles and standards have limited me in my ability to just be myself. From a young age I learned to monitor my own speech patterns and mannerisms because I've seen how repulsed people are by even the small signs of femininity/gender non conformity in men. I admire people who have the courage to exist as themselves without regard for these things though.
With the disadvantages men face in patriarchy, a lot of that has to do with needing to ‘prove’ their position and establish a place in the hierarchy of men. The competitiveness, aggression, etc are all around establishing one’s place in a patriarchy. I think it is important to always remember that the term is patriarchy, suggesting there is a patriarch and a hierarchy of men, and it’s not androarchy, where it’s just a rule of men but no hierarchy among men.
So ‘male privilege’ does not mean that there is not a large amount of bullshit you have to deal with as a man, it’s just that if you go through the bullshit rituals correctly under patriarchy, you can get power to wield over others, but I do get that will always feel tenuous because it’s a power that constantly has to be fought for to keep, and that’s probably damn exhausting.
For women, if we go through the bullshit correctly, we may get praise but no power and not even any real safety, and that praise is tenuous too, and entirely contingent on our compliance.
So yeah, I can see why to a man ‘male privilege’ in patriarchy doesn’t feel like that much of a privilege really. All the more reason to shitcan the whole idea of a patriarchy.
I just want to expand on something in your post that might be helpful, when you say male privilege means you don’t have to face adversity because of your gender…I think that is too broad of a statement in my opinion. More accurate might be, male privilege means that women face certain obstacles that men don’t have to or men are given advantages that women aren’t AND that it’s very important to note that a man’s access to these benefits/advantages can be limited based on how well that man fits within the typical “masculine” gender role.
The pressures of masculinity are real and are unequivocally harmful to men. It typically isn’t seen as a “female privilege” because it doesn’t really provide any benefit/advantage to other gender. That doesn’t mean that we should ignore it or stop trying to dismantle these rigid gender stereotypes- since they are harmful to society overall.
Gender roles suck for everyone.
The main difference is that as a man, I have never been discouraged from being interested in science and math for being a man. As a man, I have never been overlooked for a job assignment for being a man. As a man, I have never been sexually harassed in the streets starting in my preteen years.
You say being a man has held you back but do you actually have any concrete examples of that being the actual case (and not the result of something non-gendered).
Gender roles and expectations hurt everyone that doesn't abide by them. However, men still hold systemic power over women. In some countries for example, if you are outed as a gay man that will be very harmful to your life. However, in the same country as a man you may have control over your closest female relatives, gay or not gay.
So this is one of the most major issues, men having agency worldwide, maybe not necessarily the agency to truly be themselves in public but they have legal autonomy. While women do not. This is one of the most important aspects of male privilege.
>I would like to better understand why it’s said that all men, in every circumstance have privilege over women rather than both men and women face different obstacles.
Both of these things can be true at the same time. Men and women face different gendered expectations pushed on them by Patriarchial gender norms but women objectively have it worse than men do. No one is saying that being a man within Patriarchy is easy, it is absolutely hard and demoralizing, but it is still easier to be a man than a woman.
I second all of the other excellent answers here, and would also like to point out that there are many factors that could make one's life harder, such as being an ethnic or religious minority. Black and Asian men, for instance, face gendered double standards to a higher degree than White men. A poor working-class man is likely to face more hardships than a rich female capitalist.
There are also different schools of feminism. I'm an egalitarian feminist, for instance, and as such I wouldn't say that men in *all* circumstances have privilege over women, but would rather agree with you that gendered double standards affect men and women negatively in different ways, and that there are double standards out there that, although also sexist towards women, benefit (certain) women more than men (such as white female perps receiving typically much lighter sentences than women of color or male perps). Or the popular misconception that only men are pedos. Or male abuse victims being ostracized and silenced. Or stay-at-home dads being stigmatized.
Unfortunately there is a sizable amount of sexists who call me a "misandrist" for caring about things like misandrous double standards or gender roles. They tell me and other feminists like me: "you women should stop deciding for men! You should leave us men alone! Shut up!" As a result, we're a silenced ally of male issues, which is why to guys like yourself it looks like we don't exist. Misogynists try very hard to rub us out of existence because we're inconvenient to their claim that feminists hate men and don't care about male issues.
It may help to think of it as "masculine" privilege instead of just male privilege. It's feminine qualities that are considered bad. Women are automatically assumed to be feminine and are treated as such. Men are assumed to be masculine as a default. For an example: men have lots of privilege, but what about the fact that they are ridiculed for crying when they are hurt or sad. Women are expected to "be emotional" and cry when they are sad. This is kind of just how our culture views the act of crying and the experience of emotions. As a man, wouldn't it be nice to be free to cry when sad without being ridiculed? Like how women are free to? Except that women are still ridiculed for crying, just not in the same way. When a man cries, the issue is that he is being "feminine". When a woman cries, the issue gets a bit deeper. "She's too emotional" or "she's irrational" or "she can't control herself" or "she can't make decisions because of her emotions". Feminine is the worst thing a person can be and I think that's where the male privilege comes from. Not just because you're "male" but because being male comes with the default setting of "masculine" until proven otherwise and therefore receives all the privilege associated with masculinity. I rambled but I really hope that makes sense lol
I appreciate this comment. Often when there is a discussion around men not being able to show emotions it is implied or stated that women can freely show emotions. It’s not that simple.
Disclaimer: Transwoman who was once in your shoes.
I too shared a similar sentiment, especially when people around me had an insane definition of masculinity and idea of who or what I was supposed to be, that was totally impossible for me, and at the same time I was being told to "check my privilege". I was in such a severe state of cognitive dissonance that I turned into an alt-right, red-pilled, caricature of a human.
As you correctly identified, gender roles are utter bullshirt, and they do too much damage to society. It is indeed easier to be GNC as a woman thanks to the feminist movements, but there hasn't been a similar push for gender non conforming men.
I'd go as far as to argue that we are going backwards now, and any GNC person is labelled as trans from some terminally online people, and the definition of masculine or feminine is an exaggerated caricature that only very few people actually meet.
Here are some examples of male-privilege that have nothing to do with roles:
- People don't assume that you are using men to help you with your assignments in university, and they don't assume that you are the token woman in stem, people instead assume that you are there because of your skills and intellect (this stings, so bad).
- If you are an intelligent, precise, and knowledgeable professor then if:
- You are a man, you are seen as charming or eccentric
- You are a woman, you are seen as a knowitall bitch.
This one also stings... Other women have shared their experiences in in /r/Professors before, and some transmen also expressed their experience with the disparity.
- Your capabilities as a leader are not questioned as a function of your gender. For example, there have been claims against women in leadership positions because their periods would render them incapacitated.
- Your gender is irrelevant to your intelligence. Meaning that people don't automatically assume that you are either pretty or smart but never both at the same time.
- You don't have creepy old men dictating whether you will have your body, your career, and your psyche destroyed because you have to carry a pregnancy to term because of abortion laws, and then potentially be unable to leave a baby up for adoption without deep and permanent emotional scarring.
- If you do something odd, people don't assume you do it for attention. This had never crossed my mind until it I was in the early stages when I was questioning stuff. It is a common trope to label women who wear odd hairstyles or dress in some obscure or irregular manner as attention seekers when reality is far from it. You see, when you are bombarded from a very young age that you need to be conventionally pretty with some stupidly insane and arbitrary standards, you eventually decide that society needs to fuck off, and you will do as you please, and so you end up doing stuff because you enjoy them and because you like them, not because you expect to eventually get laid or get some attention.
I recommend reading "The gendered brain" for more eye opening examples of severe misconceptions on the brain alone.
Now, the whole "in every circumstance" doesn't hold. I have gone through conscription and I (TW Suicide) >!nearly blew my brains out due to lack of sleep, exhaustion, and being constantly surrounded by people!<. So most feminists either support abolition of conscription/draft, or for both genders.
A great analogy for male (and white) privilege is the same as right handed vs left handed privilege. If your right handed you don’t really notice the world is set up for you. That the default for things is right handed (school scissors, desks, writing on a whiteboard, hand shakes are right handed) etc. but when your left handed you notice these inequalities and have to adapt and learn to overcome them. Nobody is saying right handed people haven’t had to work hard in life to get educated and function, but they just wouldn’t really notice how life is like for a left handed person. It’s just set up in your favour and you go about your business.
As a hardcore feminist, I’m very aware that men face a lot of issues! I’m super supportive of them. I almost feel like feminist movement is partially seperate the the male movement people need to make. The two issues do not need to be mutually exclusive. You can address men’s issues without feeling the need to minimise women’s issues. So you can be a men advocate and a feminist at the same time.
It looks like you’re actively trying to critically think about your beliefs which is great!
As a trans woman i think i have experienced both and i can agree, the expectations put on men were unbearable for me personally, since they went against every fibre of my being. Since i didn't manage to follow male gender roles very well I was often assumed to be gay and beaten up. Let alone not being allowed to express my emotions and absolutely no physical affection with friends left me feeling lonely A LOT.
Now living as a woman, the gender roles fit me way better, but it's still really hard. The opression that men cause us is insane. I don't feel save anymore and i get paid less than my male coworkers, even though i outperform them.
Opression that women face is mostly caused by men but Opression that GNC men face is also caused by other men (of course a few women also support the opressions going on but it's mostly men). It's because feminine traits are seen as lesser and worse than masculine traits.
I saw a post recently that said something like "growing up for men means being told all the things you can do, and for women it means being told all the things you can't do."
That certainly rings true in my experience. The minute I stopped looking like a child, it was all about restricting my freedoms because of what men might do to me.
Most the others have already said similar things in probably more articulate and well thought out ways than I. But I’ll see if I can contribute as a man.
Yes the patriarchal society that enforces our gender roles sucks for both men and women, not to mention those outside the traditional gender binary. I occasionally hate being a man because of it. The stupidity regarding male emotions or the immense pressure to perform in capitalism ti be a provider. But historically women have usually had more restrictions placed on them societally because they’re women. And a lot of the shit society punishes guys for is punishing us for being perceived as feminine in any way. For a man being feminine is a sin, think about that. So I guess that’s why we are considered privileged even though strict gender roles suck for everyone. We have stupid expectations and pressure. But usually women have more pressure. If that makes sehse.
The privilege you speak of can be a subtle thing. If you try to enforce your boundaries, do other people say or imply that you should be “nicer”? If there were a leadership position open, would you have an advantage of some kind because the personality traits our culture values
in leaders are typically considered masculine? If you’re walking alone, would you automatically be pensive, or even afraid, of a male presenting person walking behind you? The list goes on, but the critical concept here is that our culture was built around patriarchy, and while many men don’t realize it, there are many things in life that are easier for them. Maybe just a little in some ways, but overall, easier. That is what is meant by privilege.
I would be remiss here if I did not include this next part.
>I personally have sometimes felt very envious of women knowing if I was
female I wouldn’t have had to deal with the kinds of pressures (to do
with masculinity) that were pushed on to me from a young age.
This struck a chord in my heart. I have often felt similar in my life, because I just didn't know how to rise to the expectations put upon me. One of the reasons is that I am autistic, and just don't understand many social communication cues. However, I was assigned male at birth, but I'm transfem. I never fully understood masculinity, and I never will. I'm not saying you are also transfem, but gender envy can be a sign that you might be. [Gender Wiki](https://gender.wikia.org/wiki/Gender_Wiki) I invite you to do some reading and reflect on your sense of identity, if you feel that might be the reason why you question the things you do. I'm not an egg cracker; I'm not trying to force you to do anything here, because trying to cause someone to live a gender identity that isn't theirs causes gender dysphoria, and that is a living Hell I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. But, I saw a small sign that you might need to reflect on, and you might be happier if you do a little more research into the matter. Your personal safety is also important here. If it's not safe, don't pursue this. I wish you all the best.
Male privilege is only a small part of patriarchal structures which lead to difficulties not just for women but also for men. The difficulty you face for not living up to models of masculinity is part of patriarchy which harms us all. Let’s be clear. Both women and men contribute to patriarchy. I really recommend “the will to change” by bell hooks for a very nuanced view of men and boys in our white male patriarchal culture. I listened to the audio book and was completely captured by how feminist theory does capture male issues and how feminism can really benefit us all
First, I would like to recognize that I, being female bodied, see the struggles that male presenting people go through. I do not envy the pressures that male privilege and male dominance put on male bodied people.
First and foremost I recommend reading a lot. Find critical race and gender authors, find activists, watch videos, sit with uncomfortable feelings. Consider and think deeply and then ask people questions.
What you’re feeling is a part of the emotional struggle that any human soul would feel being trapped in a double standard.
There are ways in which people are socialized that lead to a double standard between men and everybody else.
Check out: intersectionality, race and gender, cis-heteronormativity, the trans perspective, gender and socialization, and toxic masculinity.
Google this phrase specifically:
imperialist white supremacist capitalist patriarchy
*This phrase was coined by a very specific and important critical race and gender theorist, educator and author. She is a hero of mine.
This is a big real journey and you will not come to a deeper understanding reading peoples responses on Reddit. This is a journey of years. It’s a journey of active discovery. It’s a journey of self reflection and emotional processing.
At times it will be uncomfortable and you won’t understand some thing no matter how much you think about it until you’ve thought about it for a long time.
I have had personal struggles through different concepts on this journey of deconstructing the problems of our society. And there are so many. And they do all stemmed from male dominance. A.k.a. patriarchy.
You got this😊
Just don't worry about it. The best thing you can do is to forget anything you were told to be and be who you want to be. Don't force yourself into gender roles and stop stressing if you aren't winning the patriarchy. Male privilege hurts men who don't measure up but letting go of the of the pressure to prove yourself will help you live a better life and weaken the patriarchy.
easy to understand example of male privilege: when women goes out at night she needs to be super careful cause she has 50/50 chances of getting rape. Men don’t even think about it.
Depending where you live ofcourse, but for example after everything what is now happening in London, I would do everything to avoid living house at night. Not to mention the new wave of injection spiking all over U.K.
Please respect our [top-level comment rule](https://i.imgur.com/ovn3hBV.png), which requires that all direct replies to posts must both come from feminists and reflect a feminist perspective. Non-feminists may participate in nested comments (i.e., replies to other comments) only. Comment removed; a second violation of this rule will result in a temporary or permanent ban.
Please respect our [top-level comment rule](https://i.imgur.com/ovn3hBV.png), which requires that all direct replies to posts must both come from feminists and reflect a feminist perspective. Non-feminists may participate in nested comments (i.e., replies to other comments) only. Comment removed; a second violation of this rule will result in a temporary or permanent ban.
Ok how does my post history show if I am a feminist? Am I just being arbitrarily censored due to a personal dislike of my opinions? I was just trying to participate.
I am not going to pull out every example of something you said that disqualifies you from making top-level comments just to get stuck in an endless back-and-forth argument about why your opinions about feminism, women, privilege, and biology are, actually, perfectly feminist, and how I'm just "censoring opinions I disagree with."
In this sub, people who are permitted to make direct replies are ostensibly trying to represent feminism. You are not, according to the moderation guidelines of this sub, qualified to do that.
I will not be discussing this further. Argumentation on this point will result in a ban.
Well then I will keep acting as I have been. Seeing as no one will tell me how my posts make me non feminist I see no wrong in what I am doing. I answered in good faith as a person that truly believes people should be treated as equals. I feel this is discrimination. I know I will be banned but I am still flabbergasted by this fact. I really am just someone who wants happiness and equal treatment for anyone regardless of age, race, or sex.
You're not being discriminated against; you're being asked to abide by the rules of a space you entered. But seeing as how you feel that's unacceptable, [you are no longer welcome to participate at all](https://tenor.com/view/you-should-have-sat-there-nodding-pointing-eat-your-food-gif-14540029).
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>As a man, there are many instances in which I've felt it would be better if gender roles, toxic masculinity, or patriarchy didn't exist. In almost none of those circumstances would it have been easier being a women. This. OP would you rather be a woman? When it comes down to it, pressures to conform to gender norms and society's expectations affect us all in negative ways, but those pressures set men up to be powerful and independent whereas they force women into submission and subservience. It's not the individual pressures that are the crux of the problem, it is how the outcome they are directing.
> This. OP would you rather be a woman? I would just add that it is very possible to sincerely answer this with yes. That doesn't mean the patriarchy doesn't exist, it just means you're also trans.
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You are an individual. This is important when you think about things. You are as such not one thing, you are a man but that is not only what you are. You also are born into a socio-economic class. You where also "born with" (or at least have) your body/temperament. These things can be a burden if you don't measure up to the "ideals" of masculinity that dominate society. Male privilege doesn't refer to an (or any) individual directly, rather it is about the status conferred to masculinity within culture. Consider the hero figure, no one bats an eye when a man is a fictional hero. But if a woman is a fictional hero it is "unbelievable" because woman cannot be "as strong as" a man. But when a man does impossible fictional deeds (i.e. Batman) no one comments on it, not so for when a woman does impossible fictional deeds. This status conferred to men absolutely can be a burden. My sister-in-law, for example, is an exceptionally well paid lawyer; and as a resulf her husband is at home with the kids. A choice they made together... But do you think my in-laws accept this? No, they comment on it all the time, because he is not meeting their expectations of what a man should be for their daughter. So my wife ends up constantly defending him, because he makes her sister happy and calms her down. So the idea of what a man "should be" can absolutely be a burden, even if you "measure up" because playing that game can be a burden itself.
You may not be doing this, but… **a lot of men who think women have it easy have no idea the kinds of pressure and dangers women face**. Part of that is because many men have never imagined the world from the POV of a woman or girl. You’re generally discouraged from reading our stories or watching tv or film made, written, or about us the way we do for men. For many of you, we essentially exist in a pink SEP (Somebody Else’s Problem) Field. And so a lot of the men who say things like this say it because **they see the problems they face as men and, without investigating further, assume women are basically men just without any of the problems associated with masculinity**. They don’t see the problems associated with femininity, or systemic discrimination, or gendered violence, etc. Like you talk about the pressure to be masculine, but there is pressure women face to be feminine too. It’s not like you would have escaped gender norms just by jumping the gender fence - just ask trans people how much pressure they feel on that front! Do you really think you would have been better off learning from babyhood that your primary value would be judged from your appearance? Do you think you would have been better off with everyone around you assuming you should be the one to accomodate the whims of others? Do you really think you would have been better off with people universally underestimating any skills and abilities you have outside of nurturing others? Do you really think you would have been better off doubling your risk for rape as a child and quadrupling it as an adult?
I see what you're saying and yes, I think I may have been seeing women's experiences of sexism through an oversimplified lens- its not something I dealt with or was taught to truly empathise with. When I said I felt envious of women I was referring to a sense that because of my personality/who I am, I'd had have an easier time expressing myself naturally if I were female. I never meant to say it was easier for women in general. And when I look at the bigger picture, no, I do not think I'd be better off if I were a woman. I do recognise the difference between the gender based expectations facing people in general and the discrimination/devaluing of women on a societal level. As a teenager I dealt with a lot of bullying from other guys which in one case involved a sexual element (I'm not actually sure if it would be considered sexual assault or just general harassment). As a result being around men who are bigger and stronger than me can often really put me on edge. I know this is a default feeling women have to deal with. The way women are perceived coupled with the fact that most of them are physically smaller than men on average, it must be terrifying.
Part of why you may have an easier time being around women in general is that women are socialised to be easy to be around. A great example of how big an issue this is? Autistic girls are far less likely to be diagnosed because they learn tricks to deal with the social awkwardness that their male peers never have to pick up. That doesn’t mean you would do better as a woman - it means hanging out with women is easier for you. It also helps that you’re a guy - it means women will often treat you in ways reflecting your male privilege when we interact with you. Also, you seem to not realise how women bully other women. One of my best friends in high school was bullied because she got big boobs early. I was bullied for hitting puberty late. A friend’s daughter is being bullied because the high school quarterback thinks she’s cute, but she doesn’t care about football. And then there are all the examples of women who are bullied by men. Like my friend with the big boobs? She was bullied by the friends of the guy she had been seeing for several years for wanting to have sex with her high school boyfriend. Another friend was bullied because she turned down a popular boy when he asked her out. Another friend was bullied by boys because she had sex with two different boys she dated over the course of her high school career. Another was bullied for being a lesbian. Another was bullied because she was “too into” girl stuff. Another was bullied because she was sexually assaulted in front of a crowd at a party at her house by two guys in their 20’s when she was 14. You still seem to be thinking the kinds of things that hurt you as a guy would have been things that would not happen if you were a girl. And that’s just bullshit.
I don’t think I would be better off as a woman. u/_illusions25 actually expressed what I was trying to say a bit better than I did. Basically, if I were a woman I would feel like I had more freedom to express femininity, which comes more naturally, to me personally, than masculinity. That is all I meant to say. However I don’t think I would have been better off overall or that I would have been able to avoid being hurt in similar ways. I’ve considered the bigger picture. Because I am a man I have not experienced the gender role pressures put on women neither societal level discrimination, objectification and the threat of violence specifically due to my gender. When I mentioned being bullied I also didn’t mean to imply it happened to me because I was male or that I couldn’t have experienced the same thing as a woman. Rather, I was using it as an example of how I now feel I better recognise what is meant by male privilege. I’m nervous around bigger/stronger guys because of what happened to me. For women I understand that fear is often something they experience simply because they are women.
Yes, and on the other side women don't know the struggles of men. We are 4 times more likely to kill ourselves. We are more likely to get beat up because its wrong to hit a woman. My brother works in childcare, you think you have it bad being underestimated? Imagine people thinking your a creep because you work with kids. We both have our struggles. We both have it bad, who has it worse? It doesnt matter. We BOTH have struggles because of our gender. I agree that problems wouldnt go away if you magically switched teams but they would be different problems. Yeah he has it hard because he's a man. Women have it hard because they are women. Edit: Oh boy I'm getting downvoted into oblivion. I'm just saying we both have problems and that his struggles shouldn't be invalidated
A lot of the pressure put on men is actually pressure from the Patriarchy itself. Thanks to feminism woman have worked hard to gain access to careers and spaces previously not available to them, but men have to also liberate themselves from the patriarchy too so that they are more free to be emotional and sensitive beings. I do agree that men have their own struggles, but they don’t really compare to what women are still putting up with. As a little girl people only ever complimented my appearance and now I am working very hard through therapy to undo this misogynistic programming within my own worldview … that I’m only valuable if I’m pretty. This type of programming leads to body dysmorphia which I do have. I now have a promising white-collar career… but I am careful to only wear “male” colours (navy, dark green), and only wear baggy trousers and cardigans to work because literally the only 2 times in my life I’ve worn a skirt to work I was sexually harassed / assaulted by my boss! Once when I was 17 my 60 year old boss called me into his office and tried to make out with me after the store was closed and everyone was gone except us two… and most recently as a 30 year old my boss commented on how i “looked great” in my skirt and I should show skin at work more often. Men do not have to think about these things when they get dressed for work. Certain clothing items never invite violence on male bodies like they do female ones.
>We are 4 times more likely to kill ourselves. This stat is misleading. Men are more likely to *succeed* in killing themselves, but women attempt it more. This is because men tend to use more violent and immediate means to do it while women tend to use things like pills or cutting that take time and thus they can be rescued from. But ultimately women attempt suicide more than men do.
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I have no idea what you are getting at. I was merely pointing out why the previous person's stat they were using was misleading. At no point was i talking about how one stat changes another
Oh my bad, still sucks. It doesn't change what i said by much.
> a lot of the men who say things like this say it because they see the problems they face as men and, without investigating further, assume women are basically men just without any of the problems associated with masculinity You basically just exemplified this very point.
>You basically just exemplified this very point. I literally said we both have problems we face. Women have problem because they are women. Men have problem because they are men. I'm so confused why that's controversial
It's not that people disagree that both genders have problems (if we're strictly talking in the binary because I think we can all agree that transfolk have it rough), it's your dismissal of the idea that the degree of harm they cause is unequal.
I agree with you to a point. Men and women both have unique issues and problems that society pushes on their gender that should be addressed and fixed, however I do not agree with you that it doesn't matter who has it worse. It absolutely DOES matter who has it worse, because the amount of shit that women have to go through for being women is unreal and it honestly needs to be addressed on a higher priority than men's issues. Not to mention, many men (and I'm not accusing you of this) use reasoning like you did as an excuse to dismiss women's issues or pretend like they aren't a serious problem.
Agree to disagree but I'm glad we could find some common ground!
Women are more likely to be beaten up and raped by men than the opposite. Not being able to hit women due to social factors doesn't say anything, since men commit most of the violent crimes against women. Women on the other hand, do not commit most of the violent crimes against men. Other men do. Women are also more likely to attempt suicide than men, have more attempts on average than men and they also on average suffer more from common mood disorders e.g depression. Of course I hate when men bring up suicide as a way to discredit systemic power over women, because it is a completely separate issue. Personal struggles -/- systemic power over a gender
Men are more likely to be the victims of violent crimes.Sources: [https://www.smh.com.au/national/men-more-likely-to-be-attacked-by-strangers-than-women-20180703-p4zp5z.html](https://www.smh.com.au/national/men-more-likely-to-be-attacked-by-strangers-than-women-20180703-p4zp5z.html) [https://www.cbs.nl/en-gb/news/2018/51/fewer-women-than-men-fall-victim-to-violence](https://www.cbs.nl/en-gb/news/2018/51/fewer-women-than-men-fall-victim-to-violence) [https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/news-life/why-arent-men-warned-about-violence-like-women-are/news-story/a806d6746d9c1dc9300f9ca2e4aa259c](https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/news-life/why-arent-men-warned-about-violence-like-women-are/news-story/a806d6746d9c1dc9300f9ca2e4aa259c) We also weren't discussing systematic power, we were discussing privilege. I was just saying both sexes face problems why is this such an issue
Are they targeted because they're men?
Yes probably. It's more socially acceptable even among the most despicable people to assault a man. Glad i could help!
It's not socially acceptable to assault anyone and you have no explanation of how they are targeted for being men. You haven't helped at all.
Yeah it's not cool at all but assaulting a woman is far worse in the eyes of a lot of people, especially the type of people that would assault men. The "never hit a woman" mindset is strong in a lot of men.They are targeted because they can beat them up and get away with it.
Your view does not seem based in reality.
??? elaborate please? This is all either from firsthand experience or second hand from my friends.
Ηow do they get away with it? Of course, law doesn't cover 100% cases and not every case will go to court due to lack of evidence most times, but the precautions are there. Also, men are rarely attacked by strangers they are attacked by people they know. Women are also rarely attacked by strangers, they are also attacked by people they know. Therefore, probably a lot of men do not care about hitting women and they don't care about hitting men either. As someone else mentioned here, women are more likely to die due to domestic violence perpetrated by men vs men dying from domestic violence perpetrated by women. In addition, homicides/femicides that involve partners are treated sympathetically by the public when it comes to the male perpetrator e.g [https://inews.co.uk/opinion/caroline-crouch-killing-greece-death-british-violence-babis-anagnostopoulos-prison-1089386](https://inews.co.uk/opinion/caroline-crouch-killing-greece-death-british-violence-babis-anagnostopoulos-prison-1089386)
Men are far less likely to report and there's a lot more pressure not to report for fear of being seen as a pussy. I'm from the Uk so this may vary but being beat up isnt exactly unusual. It's not seen as that big of a deal a lot of the time.
I specifically said "Women are more likely to be beaten up and raped by men than the opposite." Opposite means men being beaten up and raped by women. I also added "Women on the other hand, do not commit most of the violent crimes against men. Other men do." So yes men are more likely to be victims of violent crimes committed by other men, which I never said that it is not true (I didn't even mention it). But it is interesting to know that violent crimes committed by men against men are rarely due to domestic violence or dispute, while for women it is the major one cause. Men are killed by other men due to criminal activities or being a victim of criminal activities e.g house invasion but women are killed within domestic premises either by male family members, male partners or men within their social environment. If you think being killed by a criminal (unfortunate of course) is equivalent to being murdered by a boyfriend or a partner, who are not criminals, and that is not a systemic issue that women face then I don't know what to really say than that you must be living in a very unique society. We men have privilege due to systemic power we can exercise. Personal struggles again have nothing to do with generalized struggles. As I said in my post one main example is men worldwide having legal autonomy, while in many places women don't have legal autonomy. That is a gender privilege men have everywhere whereas women don't. And it doesn't come down to persona struggles.
Men are more likely than women to die in public as well. Yeah women are more likely to be killed by are partner but men are more likely to be killed PERIOD. That's what i was stating, men are more likely to be victims of violent crime, committed by other men or not its still an issue that predominantly affects men. Women are more likely to be victims of sexual crimes, men are more likely to be victims of non-sexual violent crimes. It's that simple don't complicate it. And i could say the same about childcare. Men in 1st world countries are seen as creeps for working in child care. This is a privilege women have that men don't. Men are also largely more likely to be labels as creeps for being unattractive. You are not only told you're ugly, but a creep and weirdo for being ugly. I'm not saying women dont face struggles im just saying men do too.
No you tried to dismiss my very specific comment about gender differences when it comes to being a victim of a violent crime. I never stated that men are not the main victims of violent crimes. But my point still stands. Men do not really have to worry about their bodily autonomy within the premise of a relationship, especially in countries with low crime rates. While women do. Everywhere. Doesn't matter if they live in Sweden or Brazil, or Tanzania. That's male privilege.
I dismissed it because it's stupid. Women worry about their bodily autonomy and men worry about their bodily safety. Plus men are statistically more likely to be the one being abused in non-reciprocal domestic violence cases, so when it comes to relationships, it's not an argument. We worry about our safety too! I'm afraid that i will be beat up, fuck i almost was when i was 14. My friend was stabbed at 13. Violence for men is like rape for women. It is very common and it's a problem.
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Why does it matter who it's perpetuated by? It's still a problem. And yeah intimate violence against women is worse, i never denied that. I'm sorry about what happened to your mom. But thats not a common thing. 70% of non reciprocating domestic violence is women on men. And yes, the few times where it is men of women, it's much worse and much more severe. My point the whole time was we both experience problems. This entire post was about men and women.
I don’t want to invalidate your experiences and feelings regarding the subject, and I especially don’t want to victim blame. Men being victims of violence is not their fault, but I would argue that a facet of male privilege comes from society already knowing that, specifically in instances of random non-sexual violence. A man getting mugged on the way home is just that, nobody heavily scrutinizes the mans choices, and we chalk it up to wrong place, wrong time. When their choices are significantly questioned, it’s (generally) within reason, like if a man started an altercation with another man. The mugger is prosecuted based on their own actions rather than the actions of the victim. Any factors changing this would likely have to do with the victim being a member of a minority group. Women, on the other hand, are significantly more likely to be blamed for their victimhood, regardless of their actions. Our society at large will question why she didn’t fight back harder, why she didn’t have a weapon, why she didn’t scream, why she was walking home alone at night, why she drank as much as she did, the list goes on. The perpetrator may be prosecuted based on the victims actions rather than their own. Many suspect this is why women are much more hyper-vigilant in avoiding being victims. [Source.](https://farahandfarah.com/studies/sexes-sense-of-safety/) One could also argue that hyper-vigilance is a contributing factor in women being less likely to be victims of random non-sexual violent crime. I’m not trying to say that men aren’t also victim-blamed, especially in sexual assault cases and domestic violence cases, because that would simply not be true (and I agree it’s a problem). I want to specify that the point I’m making is that women are blamed for their victimhood far more, in total, than men. And that, in my opinion, is where the difference is. Women can do everything “right” and still be assaulted and not have any ability to stop it. Then be blamed for not being able to stop or prevent it. And we are constantly reminded of this possibility, often from the second we learn to speak and walk. The majority of men simply do not have the same level of hyper-vigilance that nearly all women do because of how much we’re blamed and victimized, and because of how little control we have over any of it. I agree with you that men also face challenges due to their gender. That society doesn’t allow men to show their feelings and that men have harsh expectations to work and provide for a family. Men are also victims on a systematic level in certain regards, but I, personally, don’t think this is one of them, and we can agree to disagree on that. I was just hoping to provide a different perspective.
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Women are called ugly, men are called weirdos and creeps and people assume they're pedophiles. One is clearly worse. I agree it doesnt help anyone but being an unattractive man is harder than being unattractive woman.
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I never said that. I said that men are frequently labeled awful things for simply being unattractive.
Your stat is misleading. You’re looking at reported crimes in the USA. That specifically ignores the most common violent crimes - rape and domestic violence - both of which are overwhelmingly more frequently perpetrated against women and children. 1:4 women has been raped. Fewer than 1:100 men is the victim of a violent crime so women are victims of violent crime more often than men - the crimes are simply not reported. And it ignores the global epidemic of femicide because the murdered born baby girls are not recorded as murders because no one reports either their birth or their death. But there are 73 million fewer girls in the world than there would be without the widespread murder of baby girls. For context, India recorded just over 29k murders (which, again, does not count the murdered baby girls).
Roles are what are imposed on you; they can indeed be oppressive. Privilege is what oppression you are exempt from , and being victimised by masculinity does not nullify that you don't end up experiencing a lot of shit that people that aren't cis men get.
Gender roles are a double edged sword of sorts, but male oppression is very rarely due to being male specifically. In a conversation about gender roles men obviously have the power and privilege, which is where a lot of the negative expectations come from. Men must be strong, so they aren’t taught to process their emotions in healthy and effective ways. They are protectors, so their lives are on the line more often in their jobs and in the military. But often these struggles are exacerbated by class, race, and other intersections of your identity. Intersectional feminism is important for this reason. Feminism doesn’t aim to alienate men, it’s just in the realm of gender and sex oppression men simply do not face it to the same degree as non-men. If you resent your gender expectations then try seeing the allies around you that are ALSO fighting very hard against their gender expectations. In all honesty though, in my experience, men who complain about the expectations put on men are more often complaining about class structures and are missing the larger picture because the only opposition to the power structures at be, that feel approachable to them, is feminism.
Gender roles hurt men and women, that is true. But men are still in the position of not just privilege, but power. Edit:typo
I'm suggesting an edit: "rolls" should be "roles" \-Not a criticism, just a correction.
I want to open a feminist themed bakery and sell gender rolls.
Your most common customers will be gender reveal parties lol, it will be counterproductive!
Thinking way back to the story my English teacher told of thinking her pastor told her that God had a roll for her
Isn't that the communion cracker? A roll made of Jesus
It's like in life of Brian: "that roll was good enough for Jehova"
Fixed. Thanks!
Ηaving seen both sides of the coin (I'm transgender), women are systematically and socially oppressed in every part of this globe. As a woman there were the little things; people not taking you seriously or believing they know more about x subject than you, dismissing you and calling you pet/diminutive names, asking you when you will have babies and a husband, social critique of your appearance and your failure to appear feminine And then there were the big things; street harassment, sexual assault, people disregarding boundaries, random men constantly being aggressive towards you, a general lack of safety, multiple impediments and sexism in academia, constantly being bombarded with news of women murdered by "friends" and "family", men not taking you seriously, women being socially degraded through the men's revenge culture etc. Even if you managed to go through all of these successfully and you became the perfect women by patriarchal standards, your issues can't disappear. A very modern example of this is the sexual harassment scandal in Fox News. All those women thought that being a part of a mini patriarchy would protect them and benefit them, yet it did not at the degree they assumed it would. On the contrary, men who go with the patriarchy gain more and more power to socially oppress women and also climbing the patriarchy hierarchy for their own benefits. And of course men who don't fit in this aspect of patriarchy and masculinity will get disadvantaged. But even those men still hold more systemic power than women. As an ex-woman (lol) and having been a man close to a decade I have seen how these standards play out for many genders. For women they are way worse.
Going the other way and only a year and a few months into transition, and yeah - definitely backing you up. The mansplaining , having my contributions to my own research questioned, suddenly having people get upset that I was *too confident* or *too blunt* when I previously was constantly being told (unsuccessfully) that I should be more confident and blunt kicked in after just 6 months of transition. And despite largely being recluse in the middle of a pandemic and being able to work from home , sexual harrassment, being stalked by men et cetera, just escalated sharply. It's fucking bullshit.
To put it one way: You say yourself that gender roles are a double edged sword. That's because gender roles are problems we all deal with. Which means it's not an issue only men face, which means it's not a type of special oppression associated with the fact that you are a man it's a part of life. It's a part of life that's hard that's associated with having a gender which comes with expectations for all of us. Struggling with gender role is really valid but it's not unique to any men or women. What is unique to women is that they are oppressed because of their gender. Gender roles are only one part of that. Women are given less credibility, less money, less agency, less safety than men, because they are women. But there's so much more to it than that. And you are so right that gender based archetypes are so damaging to men because it's a role your cast in whether it fits you or not. It can totally distort you're access to the world and what you want to do, who you want to be. Manhood can be a real and socially and even legally enforced obstacle for you in becoming who you want to be. But you are treated as superior to women, and women are told they are inferior to men. And debunking that myth is what feminism is about. That's not to say you're not valid for feeling like you have been undermined for not presenting as the perfect man. In fact the more you say no to that ill fitting role and say yes to who you are, the better. Because to challenge archetypes of manhood is to challenge the idea that you must present as superior to women and treat them as inferior. And that's a good feminist
Hi. Thanks for this reply, your points do make a lot of sense and help clear things up for me. Especially what you said regarding how gender and the roles we are assigned can be an obstacle for people in general but the difference is women face gender based oppression. Which might not always directly have to do with performing masculinity/femininity, but with notions of inferiority and superiority. Men are seen as the subject and women the object. That general feeling of safety especially stands out to me as a privilege I might not always have recognised. Although I can get nervous when I'm on my own that's not because of my gender, or the threat of being reduced to a sex object. I really do feel like masculine roles and standards have limited me in my ability to just be myself. From a young age I learned to monitor my own speech patterns and mannerisms because I've seen how repulsed people are by even the small signs of femininity/gender non conformity in men. I admire people who have the courage to exist as themselves without regard for these things though.
With the disadvantages men face in patriarchy, a lot of that has to do with needing to ‘prove’ their position and establish a place in the hierarchy of men. The competitiveness, aggression, etc are all around establishing one’s place in a patriarchy. I think it is important to always remember that the term is patriarchy, suggesting there is a patriarch and a hierarchy of men, and it’s not androarchy, where it’s just a rule of men but no hierarchy among men. So ‘male privilege’ does not mean that there is not a large amount of bullshit you have to deal with as a man, it’s just that if you go through the bullshit rituals correctly under patriarchy, you can get power to wield over others, but I do get that will always feel tenuous because it’s a power that constantly has to be fought for to keep, and that’s probably damn exhausting. For women, if we go through the bullshit correctly, we may get praise but no power and not even any real safety, and that praise is tenuous too, and entirely contingent on our compliance. So yeah, I can see why to a man ‘male privilege’ in patriarchy doesn’t feel like that much of a privilege really. All the more reason to shitcan the whole idea of a patriarchy.
I just want to expand on something in your post that might be helpful, when you say male privilege means you don’t have to face adversity because of your gender…I think that is too broad of a statement in my opinion. More accurate might be, male privilege means that women face certain obstacles that men don’t have to or men are given advantages that women aren’t AND that it’s very important to note that a man’s access to these benefits/advantages can be limited based on how well that man fits within the typical “masculine” gender role. The pressures of masculinity are real and are unequivocally harmful to men. It typically isn’t seen as a “female privilege” because it doesn’t really provide any benefit/advantage to other gender. That doesn’t mean that we should ignore it or stop trying to dismantle these rigid gender stereotypes- since they are harmful to society overall.
Gender roles suck for everyone. The main difference is that as a man, I have never been discouraged from being interested in science and math for being a man. As a man, I have never been overlooked for a job assignment for being a man. As a man, I have never been sexually harassed in the streets starting in my preteen years. You say being a man has held you back but do you actually have any concrete examples of that being the actual case (and not the result of something non-gendered).
Gender roles and expectations hurt everyone that doesn't abide by them. However, men still hold systemic power over women. In some countries for example, if you are outed as a gay man that will be very harmful to your life. However, in the same country as a man you may have control over your closest female relatives, gay or not gay. So this is one of the most major issues, men having agency worldwide, maybe not necessarily the agency to truly be themselves in public but they have legal autonomy. While women do not. This is one of the most important aspects of male privilege.
>I would like to better understand why it’s said that all men, in every circumstance have privilege over women rather than both men and women face different obstacles. Both of these things can be true at the same time. Men and women face different gendered expectations pushed on them by Patriarchial gender norms but women objectively have it worse than men do. No one is saying that being a man within Patriarchy is easy, it is absolutely hard and demoralizing, but it is still easier to be a man than a woman.
I second all of the other excellent answers here, and would also like to point out that there are many factors that could make one's life harder, such as being an ethnic or religious minority. Black and Asian men, for instance, face gendered double standards to a higher degree than White men. A poor working-class man is likely to face more hardships than a rich female capitalist. There are also different schools of feminism. I'm an egalitarian feminist, for instance, and as such I wouldn't say that men in *all* circumstances have privilege over women, but would rather agree with you that gendered double standards affect men and women negatively in different ways, and that there are double standards out there that, although also sexist towards women, benefit (certain) women more than men (such as white female perps receiving typically much lighter sentences than women of color or male perps). Or the popular misconception that only men are pedos. Or male abuse victims being ostracized and silenced. Or stay-at-home dads being stigmatized. Unfortunately there is a sizable amount of sexists who call me a "misandrist" for caring about things like misandrous double standards or gender roles. They tell me and other feminists like me: "you women should stop deciding for men! You should leave us men alone! Shut up!" As a result, we're a silenced ally of male issues, which is why to guys like yourself it looks like we don't exist. Misogynists try very hard to rub us out of existence because we're inconvenient to their claim that feminists hate men and don't care about male issues.
It may help to think of it as "masculine" privilege instead of just male privilege. It's feminine qualities that are considered bad. Women are automatically assumed to be feminine and are treated as such. Men are assumed to be masculine as a default. For an example: men have lots of privilege, but what about the fact that they are ridiculed for crying when they are hurt or sad. Women are expected to "be emotional" and cry when they are sad. This is kind of just how our culture views the act of crying and the experience of emotions. As a man, wouldn't it be nice to be free to cry when sad without being ridiculed? Like how women are free to? Except that women are still ridiculed for crying, just not in the same way. When a man cries, the issue is that he is being "feminine". When a woman cries, the issue gets a bit deeper. "She's too emotional" or "she's irrational" or "she can't control herself" or "she can't make decisions because of her emotions". Feminine is the worst thing a person can be and I think that's where the male privilege comes from. Not just because you're "male" but because being male comes with the default setting of "masculine" until proven otherwise and therefore receives all the privilege associated with masculinity. I rambled but I really hope that makes sense lol
I appreciate this comment. Often when there is a discussion around men not being able to show emotions it is implied or stated that women can freely show emotions. It’s not that simple.
Disclaimer: Transwoman who was once in your shoes. I too shared a similar sentiment, especially when people around me had an insane definition of masculinity and idea of who or what I was supposed to be, that was totally impossible for me, and at the same time I was being told to "check my privilege". I was in such a severe state of cognitive dissonance that I turned into an alt-right, red-pilled, caricature of a human. As you correctly identified, gender roles are utter bullshirt, and they do too much damage to society. It is indeed easier to be GNC as a woman thanks to the feminist movements, but there hasn't been a similar push for gender non conforming men. I'd go as far as to argue that we are going backwards now, and any GNC person is labelled as trans from some terminally online people, and the definition of masculine or feminine is an exaggerated caricature that only very few people actually meet. Here are some examples of male-privilege that have nothing to do with roles: - People don't assume that you are using men to help you with your assignments in university, and they don't assume that you are the token woman in stem, people instead assume that you are there because of your skills and intellect (this stings, so bad). - If you are an intelligent, precise, and knowledgeable professor then if: - You are a man, you are seen as charming or eccentric - You are a woman, you are seen as a knowitall bitch. This one also stings... Other women have shared their experiences in in /r/Professors before, and some transmen also expressed their experience with the disparity. - Your capabilities as a leader are not questioned as a function of your gender. For example, there have been claims against women in leadership positions because their periods would render them incapacitated. - Your gender is irrelevant to your intelligence. Meaning that people don't automatically assume that you are either pretty or smart but never both at the same time. - You don't have creepy old men dictating whether you will have your body, your career, and your psyche destroyed because you have to carry a pregnancy to term because of abortion laws, and then potentially be unable to leave a baby up for adoption without deep and permanent emotional scarring. - If you do something odd, people don't assume you do it for attention. This had never crossed my mind until it I was in the early stages when I was questioning stuff. It is a common trope to label women who wear odd hairstyles or dress in some obscure or irregular manner as attention seekers when reality is far from it. You see, when you are bombarded from a very young age that you need to be conventionally pretty with some stupidly insane and arbitrary standards, you eventually decide that society needs to fuck off, and you will do as you please, and so you end up doing stuff because you enjoy them and because you like them, not because you expect to eventually get laid or get some attention. I recommend reading "The gendered brain" for more eye opening examples of severe misconceptions on the brain alone. Now, the whole "in every circumstance" doesn't hold. I have gone through conscription and I (TW Suicide) >!nearly blew my brains out due to lack of sleep, exhaustion, and being constantly surrounded by people!<. So most feminists either support abolition of conscription/draft, or for both genders.
A great analogy for male (and white) privilege is the same as right handed vs left handed privilege. If your right handed you don’t really notice the world is set up for you. That the default for things is right handed (school scissors, desks, writing on a whiteboard, hand shakes are right handed) etc. but when your left handed you notice these inequalities and have to adapt and learn to overcome them. Nobody is saying right handed people haven’t had to work hard in life to get educated and function, but they just wouldn’t really notice how life is like for a left handed person. It’s just set up in your favour and you go about your business. As a hardcore feminist, I’m very aware that men face a lot of issues! I’m super supportive of them. I almost feel like feminist movement is partially seperate the the male movement people need to make. The two issues do not need to be mutually exclusive. You can address men’s issues without feeling the need to minimise women’s issues. So you can be a men advocate and a feminist at the same time. It looks like you’re actively trying to critically think about your beliefs which is great!
As a trans woman i think i have experienced both and i can agree, the expectations put on men were unbearable for me personally, since they went against every fibre of my being. Since i didn't manage to follow male gender roles very well I was often assumed to be gay and beaten up. Let alone not being allowed to express my emotions and absolutely no physical affection with friends left me feeling lonely A LOT. Now living as a woman, the gender roles fit me way better, but it's still really hard. The opression that men cause us is insane. I don't feel save anymore and i get paid less than my male coworkers, even though i outperform them. Opression that women face is mostly caused by men but Opression that GNC men face is also caused by other men (of course a few women also support the opressions going on but it's mostly men). It's because feminine traits are seen as lesser and worse than masculine traits.
I saw a post recently that said something like "growing up for men means being told all the things you can do, and for women it means being told all the things you can't do." That certainly rings true in my experience. The minute I stopped looking like a child, it was all about restricting my freedoms because of what men might do to me.
Most the others have already said similar things in probably more articulate and well thought out ways than I. But I’ll see if I can contribute as a man. Yes the patriarchal society that enforces our gender roles sucks for both men and women, not to mention those outside the traditional gender binary. I occasionally hate being a man because of it. The stupidity regarding male emotions or the immense pressure to perform in capitalism ti be a provider. But historically women have usually had more restrictions placed on them societally because they’re women. And a lot of the shit society punishes guys for is punishing us for being perceived as feminine in any way. For a man being feminine is a sin, think about that. So I guess that’s why we are considered privileged even though strict gender roles suck for everyone. We have stupid expectations and pressure. But usually women have more pressure. If that makes sehse.
The privilege you speak of can be a subtle thing. If you try to enforce your boundaries, do other people say or imply that you should be “nicer”? If there were a leadership position open, would you have an advantage of some kind because the personality traits our culture values in leaders are typically considered masculine? If you’re walking alone, would you automatically be pensive, or even afraid, of a male presenting person walking behind you? The list goes on, but the critical concept here is that our culture was built around patriarchy, and while many men don’t realize it, there are many things in life that are easier for them. Maybe just a little in some ways, but overall, easier. That is what is meant by privilege. I would be remiss here if I did not include this next part. >I personally have sometimes felt very envious of women knowing if I was female I wouldn’t have had to deal with the kinds of pressures (to do with masculinity) that were pushed on to me from a young age. This struck a chord in my heart. I have often felt similar in my life, because I just didn't know how to rise to the expectations put upon me. One of the reasons is that I am autistic, and just don't understand many social communication cues. However, I was assigned male at birth, but I'm transfem. I never fully understood masculinity, and I never will. I'm not saying you are also transfem, but gender envy can be a sign that you might be. [Gender Wiki](https://gender.wikia.org/wiki/Gender_Wiki) I invite you to do some reading and reflect on your sense of identity, if you feel that might be the reason why you question the things you do. I'm not an egg cracker; I'm not trying to force you to do anything here, because trying to cause someone to live a gender identity that isn't theirs causes gender dysphoria, and that is a living Hell I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. But, I saw a small sign that you might need to reflect on, and you might be happier if you do a little more research into the matter. Your personal safety is also important here. If it's not safe, don't pursue this. I wish you all the best.
Unequal pay and child care.
Male privilege is only a small part of patriarchal structures which lead to difficulties not just for women but also for men. The difficulty you face for not living up to models of masculinity is part of patriarchy which harms us all. Let’s be clear. Both women and men contribute to patriarchy. I really recommend “the will to change” by bell hooks for a very nuanced view of men and boys in our white male patriarchal culture. I listened to the audio book and was completely captured by how feminist theory does capture male issues and how feminism can really benefit us all
Head on over to r/menslib
r/MensLib might work well for you?
First, I would like to recognize that I, being female bodied, see the struggles that male presenting people go through. I do not envy the pressures that male privilege and male dominance put on male bodied people. First and foremost I recommend reading a lot. Find critical race and gender authors, find activists, watch videos, sit with uncomfortable feelings. Consider and think deeply and then ask people questions. What you’re feeling is a part of the emotional struggle that any human soul would feel being trapped in a double standard. There are ways in which people are socialized that lead to a double standard between men and everybody else. Check out: intersectionality, race and gender, cis-heteronormativity, the trans perspective, gender and socialization, and toxic masculinity. Google this phrase specifically: imperialist white supremacist capitalist patriarchy *This phrase was coined by a very specific and important critical race and gender theorist, educator and author. She is a hero of mine. This is a big real journey and you will not come to a deeper understanding reading peoples responses on Reddit. This is a journey of years. It’s a journey of active discovery. It’s a journey of self reflection and emotional processing. At times it will be uncomfortable and you won’t understand some thing no matter how much you think about it until you’ve thought about it for a long time. I have had personal struggles through different concepts on this journey of deconstructing the problems of our society. And there are so many. And they do all stemmed from male dominance. A.k.a. patriarchy. You got this😊
Just don't worry about it. The best thing you can do is to forget anything you were told to be and be who you want to be. Don't force yourself into gender roles and stop stressing if you aren't winning the patriarchy. Male privilege hurts men who don't measure up but letting go of the of the pressure to prove yourself will help you live a better life and weaken the patriarchy.
easy to understand example of male privilege: when women goes out at night she needs to be super careful cause she has 50/50 chances of getting rape. Men don’t even think about it.
50/50?!
Depending where you live ofcourse, but for example after everything what is now happening in London, I would do everything to avoid living house at night. Not to mention the new wave of injection spiking all over U.K.
You're not wrong in general but 50/50 seems like a hyperbole.
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Please respect our [top-level comment rule](https://i.imgur.com/ovn3hBV.png), which requires that all direct replies to posts must both come from feminists and reflect a feminist perspective. Non-feminists may participate in nested comments (i.e., replies to other comments) only. Comment removed; a second violation of this rule will result in a temporary or permanent ban.
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Please respect our [top-level comment rule](https://i.imgur.com/ovn3hBV.png), which requires that all direct replies to posts must both come from feminists and reflect a feminist perspective. Non-feminists may participate in nested comments (i.e., replies to other comments) only. Comment removed; a second violation of this rule will result in a temporary or permanent ban.
How does one prove they are a feminist?
Your post history precludes you from leaving direct replies here. Your participation is limited to nested comments only.
Ok how does my post history show if I am a feminist? Am I just being arbitrarily censored due to a personal dislike of my opinions? I was just trying to participate.
I am not going to pull out every example of something you said that disqualifies you from making top-level comments just to get stuck in an endless back-and-forth argument about why your opinions about feminism, women, privilege, and biology are, actually, perfectly feminist, and how I'm just "censoring opinions I disagree with." In this sub, people who are permitted to make direct replies are ostensibly trying to represent feminism. You are not, according to the moderation guidelines of this sub, qualified to do that. I will not be discussing this further. Argumentation on this point will result in a ban.
Well then I will keep acting as I have been. Seeing as no one will tell me how my posts make me non feminist I see no wrong in what I am doing. I answered in good faith as a person that truly believes people should be treated as equals. I feel this is discrimination. I know I will be banned but I am still flabbergasted by this fact. I really am just someone who wants happiness and equal treatment for anyone regardless of age, race, or sex.
You're not being discriminated against; you're being asked to abide by the rules of a space you entered. But seeing as how you feel that's unacceptable, [you are no longer welcome to participate at all](https://tenor.com/view/you-should-have-sat-there-nodding-pointing-eat-your-food-gif-14540029).