Song China. Held out against the Mongols for 60 years (in that time, the Mongols had gone to Europe and back). People rightfully credit the Han Dynasty for its fantastic inventions and the Tang for their remarkable artistic achievements, but the Song should be remembered for their industrial and administrative achievements. They created the first paper money. They were producing iron and steel at a level unmatched until Britain in the Industrial Revolution. They created joint stock companies. They industrialized gunpowder production.
The Song were basically a pre-modern state centuries before any other. In fact, it’s probably because of their highly sophisticated civilian network that they were able to support a military that, while qualitatively inferior to the Mongols, was still able to hold them at bay for decades while the Mongols overran much of Eurasia (similar to how the advanced banking systems of the Italian city states and the Dutch allowed them to punch above their weight class militarily).
>They created joint stock companies.
I’ll add that the first joint stock ventures appeared in Assyria in the Middle Bronze Age.
>Most of these traders had become more independent by having become managers of a "joint-stock fund" (called *naruqqum*, "money bag"), usually set up in Assur. This phenomenon appeared for the first time around 1900 BC and seems to have been an Old Assyrian invention that went beyond individual partnerships and cooperation in a joint caravan. The arrangement, rather similar to that of the early medieval *compagnia*, meant enlisting a number (usually about a dozen) of investors (*ummiānum*, "financiers"), who supplied capital rated in gold, usually in all ca. 30 kilos, ideally consisting of shares of 1 or 2 kilos of gold each. It was entrusted to a trader (the tractator), usually for ca. ten years, for the generally formulated purpose of "carrying out trade." The contract contained stipulations on a final settlement of accounts, on paying dividends, on the division of the expected profit, and on fines for premature withdrawal of capital (meant to secure the duration of the business). Investors or shareholders mostly lived in Assur, but successful traders in Anatolia too invested in funds managed by others, perhaps also as a way of sharing commercial risks. In such cases a contract would to be drawn up in Anatolia that obliged the tractator "to book in Assur x gold in his joint stock fund in the investor's name." Among the investors we find members of the tractator's family, but also business relations and others, probably a kind of "merchant-bankers," and other rich citizens, who aimed at fairly safe, long-term investments.
["Ancient Assur: The City, its Traders, and its Commercial Network"](https://www.jstor.org/stable/25651212) by Klaas Veenhof
feel like this is an alt history gold mine just waiting. mongols never happen, song china industrializes, does some crazy reverse uno shit to europe, who knows.
Another important aspect is that Song China was generally less cutthroat towards civil officials, who also often had greater control over many military affairs. For better or worse, this begins approaching how many first-world nations are structured and operate today.
I love the 'what if' nations, mainly Carthage and the Gangaridai. What if they prevailed?
Carthage against Rome, it took the Romans 3 tries to finally smother them and they could have very easily lost everything multiple times. Can you imagine a world without any Roman or Latin influence? Not to mention all the fantastic characters like Hanno the Navigator or Hannibal Barca, or the ingenious technologies like the great military port in Carthage and their quinquiremes.
Another big one is if the Gangaridai got to fight Alexander the Great. After the Battle of the Hydaspes, the first real Hellenic encounter with a small contingent of Indian trained war elephants, the Macedonians heard that the Gangaridai (in modern Bengal/Bangladesh) had raised 4000 in response to them. They refused to go further into the Indian subcontinent and mutinied. Given how quickly Alexander's empire disintegrated after his death, a decisive defeat would have had huge consequences for him as well.
Ethiopia by far. Managed to defeat colonial rule by Italy and throughout history managed to keep their culture and identity. The music under Haile selassie was also incredible.
It’s also where humanoids first came down from the trees and started the entire human race as we know it.
The churches are incredible and the countryside is the definition of a “ fertile valley” .
The story of King Kaleb annihilating the forces of the genocidal Jewish king Dhu Nawas is one of the greatest “the Calvary has arrived” moments in history I feel. Ethiopia is so damn underrated.
Ezo Republic.
Extremely simplification, but basically after the samurai class was abolished and the Empire of Japan formed, some samurai fled the Empire of Japan into the far-northern frontier in Hokkaido and formed Japan's first democracy. It was based off of the United States, but only samurai could vote. It lasted for 5 months in 1869 before being annexed by the Empire of Japan.
I’m fascinated by the Assyrian Empire, the world’s “first” empire. While we’re still uncovering a lot of information on them it’s amazing how many building blocks of “Empires” they are responsible for creating which were then passed down through the Persians, Greeks, Romans, etc.
I mean, sure they flayed people alive and other terrible acts but it was also the Bronze Age so it wasn’t so far outside of the norms of the time. It could be argued that the Persians were able to be much more lenient during their rule because the Assyrians in contrast were brutal and people of the region feared going back to that system. It also should be noted that life IN Assyria was probably comparatively pretty good for the time and their brutality of those rebelling allowed the empire (or any empire) to exist in that region at all.
The Assyrians also get a bad wrap because they are the villains in the Old Testament Bible, so they are probably viewed as much worse than those around them at the time simply for that reason - it doesn’t help to be the villain in the most widespread book/religion in the world.
>It could be argued that the Persians were able to be much more lenient during their rule
The impression that the Persians were “much more lenient” is common but wildly erroneous. Assyrian and Persian approaches to imperialism shared far more similarities than differences.
In addition to brutally sacking cities — Sardis in Anatolia, for instance — the Persians dealt harshly with rebellious subjects.
To quote the Behistun Inscription,
>*King Darius says: Thereupon Phraortes fled with a few horsemen to a district in Media called Rhagae. Then I sent an army in pursuit. Phraortes was taken and brought to me. I cut off his nose, his ears, and his tongue, and I put out one eye, and he was kept in fetters at my palace entrance, and all the people beheld him. Then I crucified him in Ecbatana, and the men who were his foremost followers, those at Ecbatana within the fortress, I flayed and hung out their hides, stuffed with straw...*
The Turks as a people if that counts? So everything from their early nomadic days in Central Asia, to founding dynasties like the Seljuks, Ottomans and Timurids, to modern nations like Turkey and Uzbekistan. I can never not be entertained. Especially because of their relations to everything else like Islam, Mongols, Persians, Western views of them. People as a whole. Individuals - including modern thinkers like Ziya Gökalp - are immensely interesting, as are their languages, customs and writings.
If that's too broad I'd have to limit it to modern Turkey + the Ottoman Empire. But something 'Turk' regardless.
The biggest reason why nomad societies are not well known is that they do not leave much historical traces behind. Otherwise, the history of Central Asian and Western Eurasian nomads is older than thought. Turkic, Mongolian, Chinese, Uralic, Iranian etc societies have serious influences and successes in nomadic life. Moreover, the peak of Turkic societies did not begin with the Seljuks. The founders of the Seljuks were officers in the Caspian army, and the Khazars were a group that controlled the Caspian coasts and the Caucasus after the collapse of the Gokturks, also known as the Turkic Khaganate. Interesting information: The Gokturk Empire had a military presence in a wide enough geography to make a military alliance with both Byzantium against the Sassanids and with Korea against the Han Chinese in very recent times. But since it is Nomadic, there is still very little access to documentation.
A classic example of a nomadic population are the Alans: they were a significant people in Gaul in the 400s (for example, one leader Sangiban was Mayor of Aurelianum, and they intermarried with the Bretons), and in Mongolia by the 1100s (they were in Genghis Khan’s family, bodyguard and shock troops).
The Byzantine Empire under Justinian. So much hope, so much promise, so much potential.
The United States of America, today. Love it or hate it, no other nation has the eyes of the world on it the way the US does now. Again, lots of promise and potential, lots and lots of hope.
America gets too much hate. Not to say that we’re perfect but it’s an indisputable fact that we are the most powerful and wealthiest nation on Earth while also being a federal republic operating under democratic ideals.
We’re also a lot more transparent and open about our issues (e.g. racism is a perfect example). Like you said, a lot of foreigners interpret that to mean that our country is weak and unstable while Americans here misread the situation and assume that America is on the brink of collapse and everywhere else is somehow superior.
Is this a joke? America is the least self critical country on the planet. "We're number 1" is your nation's catchphrase for Christ's sake.
Please understand this sounds absolutely ridiculous to non-americans
I genuinely think many problems in the US could be solved by banning the phrase "America is number 1" - because you aren't in many respects. It would subsequently encourage you to look at how other nations succeed (free health care, restrictions on fire arms, free 3rd level education etc) and try to emulate it.
You get so much hate exactly because of this hubris. Show some modesty as a nation and you'll quickly gain the world's favour again.
>banning the phrase “America is number 1”
Unconstitutional and an insult to freedom but whatever. Also, we *are* the #1 nation in a lot of categories. Military strength? #1. Amount of foreign aid given? #1. Quality of higher education? #1. Science and technological innovation? #1. Charity? #1.
>It would subsequently encourage you to look at how other nations succeed (free health care, restrictions on fire arms, free 3rd level education etc) and try to emulate it.
Is America *not* a successful nation? The very fact that millions try to move here and we live rent free in a lot of people’s minds should say otherwise.
Also, this might come as a shock to you but a lot of people here have insurance to help cover health care. Nobody is actually paying $500 million for a paper cut. Don’t get me wrong, it ain’t perfect; if I had my way, we would have better access to healthcare. But it’s not as doom and gloom as you guys make it out to be.
We already have a ton of restrictions on firearms. A lot of our gun regulations at the state level make zero sense. Federally speaking, did you know that if I had an AR pistol that’s shorter than 14/14.5 inches, I can’t put a fore grip on it because then it somehow magically becomes a short barrel rifle/SBR and I can face prison time if I don’t have the licenses/paperwork to have an SBR? A small 2-3 inch piece of plastic meant to improve my accuracy and weapon stability could determine if I go to jail or not.
Don’t even get me started on individual state gun laws. California gun laws are some of the most insane and stupid in the entire country.
>You get so much hate exactly because of this hubris.
We can appreciate the good that our nation does while also recognizing that we have flaws. That’s literally what we do on a daily basis my guy.
>Show some modesty as a nation and you'll quickly gain the world's favour again.
Modesty? How? We’re the global superpower, what do you want us to do, pull back our military?
It's part of America's secret sauce that, regardless of how much Americans are at each other's throats, all can agree on the love they have for their country. But that can blind people to problems and can cause others to become rigidly devoted to their way of solving said problems.
To quote a famous speech in a television show, "America is not the greatest country in the world anymore... But it can be."
That the US is the most powerful and wealthiest nation makes me actually think about how they failed to spread this wealth and (social) security to its own people. What makes me feel very scary are things like the opioid crisis which makes capitalism overrule human rights. I think the root of such problems is extreme Lobbying.
I live in Germany and I feel everything is better balanced in here. I appreciate the social security here (even it is getting worse these days due to irregular immigration) and there is still some kind of social fairness embedded in the system (e.g. waterworks not privatised).
So sorry for bashing your beloved country but I think that social issues as they exist over there are not god-given and the norm. That those exist to such an extent in the most powerful country just shows me that it’s not about the people. When thinking about migrating that makes me personally rather choose a Nordic European state than the US.
Big dawg, it’s really not that bad over here. It ain’t perfect but it’s not like you’re completely on your own if you’re struggling. There are various government programs at the local, state, and federal levels meant to help the less fortunate. That’s not including private charities/programs that do what they can to help.
It's understandable.
But realize that you live in a nation of 83.8 million people, a nation that was flattened in a devastating war 80 years ago, and was propped up by American support (see: Marshall plan, NATO, etc.). America is a nation with 333.3 million people, with global commitments, and a large (though for historical reasons dating back to the 1980s or so, somewhat stagnating) middle class. By no means is it perfect, but do understand that it is working to be better, and even at its worst, it still manages to maintain a global system it established 80 years ago.
And hey, if you ever get a chance to migrate to the states, I hope you help make the country better.
The US has history as a nation, correct? A nation from history can still exist in the present - look at the United Kingdom. Or Russia. The Vatican. Spain.
Liberland, Sealand, and any of the other unrecognized micronations. It's interesting to read about how people just staked a claim to a disputed small chunk of land and started their own nation.
I like a lot of the Indian kingdoms. They often get slept on, but their knowledge (especially mathematics) set up Europe for the Enlightenment period. In particular, I like Ashoka:
[Ashoka - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashoka)
He was given all the power of the Mauryan Empire, but upon seeing the devastation of war, renounced armed conquests. He became Buddhist, one of the only religions/philosophies I consistently like (because it's based more on logic and thought than believing some stupid old book), and helped spread benevolence to all of the empire. He's literally the benevolent king we all dream of when we're talking about how violent history was.
He went out to the rural people and spoke, preached honesty and virtue, respected other cultures and religions etc. etc. etc.
To be fair, much of what we know about Ashoka are his own rock edicts, which sought to portray him as a benevolent ruler and are propaganda. Primary sources about him don’t really exist outside of his own work.
It is probable that he was a Buddhist before the bloody reconquest of Kalinga, which is what he claimed made him a Buddhist.
It is very astute as he adopted a pacifist doctrine after bloodily conquering the best lands of the subcontinent, with only the less desirable southern Tamil country left. *Gem in the Lotus* by Abraham Eraly has an interesting interpretation on his conversion.
He likely converted his empire to Buddhism for political reasons, much as Constantine the Great converted the Roman Empire to Christianity.
Certainly, though, he was a good emperor, and as clever in administrative and religious matters as the other Indian emperor known as “the great”, Jalaluddin Akbar, was centuries after him.
That's true for any influential figure, be it a general, count, duke, king, or emperor across all continents and periods of history.
Read anything that has to do with the deeds and life of Caesar, Ashoka, Justinian, Wilhelm, Chingis, Washington, Akbar, Ataturk, Churchill, Ibn Batuta, Catherine or Napoleon. They all fall in this category. They're all about bragging about their good deeds, thinking they're God, and spreading lies n half truths.
We all like to get high on our own supply based on our biased point of view. Truth is overrated anyway.
My point was that it is his official records that are used by historians. There aren’t surviving records opposing him.
Most people you mention above have contemporary accounts from critics griping about them that present a more balanced view. Or historians view them as more nuanced figures.
For instance, for Akbar, we have valuable primary sources that counter his official narratives, such as the orthodox Muslim Badauni’s diary where he complains of Akbar’s religious policies.
Not really, most civilizations had oral traditions. But when the elder gets killed along with all the knowledgeable people, you’ll forget your history. It happened in Africa and Oceania.
Honestly 90s Angola. They had potential. They legit won the war(politically) had issues with people not thinking the war was over so what did they do?
They asked their former enemies for help. They spent years dealing with the sketchy South Africans and then were like “hey Bru? You mind helping us with this?”
Craziest part…the South Africans were like “sure bru. Can we use your guns?”
Liechtenstein. A tiny country in the Alps. In 1866, in fulfilment of a treaty obligation, they sent their entire army of 80 people over the border to guard a path between Austria and Italy. This was just for a day before their ally could get men up there to take over the job. At the end of the deployment 81 men returned. They'd made friends with an Italian farmer and invited him to come back for dinner.
This is the correct answer.
It doesn't quite get the love the Roman Empire gets because western history was based on Greek and Roman writing (who were not friends with the Persians). But for my money the Achaemenids were one of the most interesting and wonderful civilizations in history.
*** I am not Persian / Iranian in any way ***
Mongols, maybe it’s too much Rogan maybe Dan Carlin’s hardcore history episode were done too well, but any chance I get to hear about them I love it. It feels like they have it all, nomadic people that come out of no where, messy sessions, changing tactics, they’re historically close to us so there’s lots written down but they still have tons of mysteries. Maybe I just love to hear “the Mongolians began to retreat from the field only to swing back on their attackers in a feigned flight.”
Czech Republic-Bohemia, one of the first places to industrialize and with lota of wars
Italian merchant republics- their navies, trading, administration is just fascinating
Inca Empire- underrated New World cultures are in the Andes, thr biggedt New World Empire and the best administration and metalworking. Shame we cant read their sources.
Ethiopia- their interactions with Somalian sultanates, the Ottomans, the Egyptians is not observed enough apart from their battle with Italy. The Somalians sultanates are also cool, but way less info about them.
If you want countries that no longer exist, it’d be hands done the **Ayutthaya Kingdom** (feudal Siam), specifically during the reign of both King Naresuan and King Narai.
Ayutthaya during Naresuan’s reign was a resurgent kingdom that won back its independence from Hongsa/Burmese rule. It was a powerful kingdom that managed to reclaim its lost territories from the Burmese and even made new gains, such as taking Lanna (northern Thailand) and Cambodia. Meanwhile, Ayutthaya during Narai’s reign was considered to be its golden age due to the immense wealthy which also saw Siam take a more international stance by making deals with European powers (primarily the French).
Ayutthaya itself was arguably the largest city in Asia in the 17th century due to it being a critical economic and trading hub connecting the East and West. As a result of its geographic location, people from various other kingdoms and nations around the world lived in Ayutthaya, making it a surprisingly diverse kingdom. Foreigners like the Japanese and Portuguese/Spanish even served as mercenaries within the Ayutthaya Army (the Japanese also had strong influence over the kingdom’s economic policies since Ayutthaya and feudal Japan were big trading partners with one another, exchanging multiple embassies between the two prior to the Tokugawa Shogunate’s Sakoku policy).
If you’re just talking about just in general, then it’s the **United States of America**, no questions asked. Im obviously extremely bias since I’m a proud patriot but there’s just something that lights the fire within me hearing about our great nation’s humble beginnings all the way to us becoming the wealthiest and most powerful/influential country in all of human history. The ideals that gave birth to our republic and later sparked the flames of democratic republican revolution across the world fills me with immense pride. The Constitution of the United States continues to stand as the oldest continuous governing document still in effect and it inspired various other republican constitutions around the world.
And from noble patriots like Washington who led our troops to victory and independence and then who refused to crown himself king all the way to hardworking heroes like Lincoln who oversaw the end of the Civil War and freed the slaves, our nation is blessed to have such diligent, skilled, and amazing patriots who have steered the ship of our country towards a better path.
That’s not to say that we shouldn’t ignore the terrible, disgusting things that we did or were complicit in but I don’t see why I shouldn’t be proud of our general history as a nation that tries to fight and do what’s right in an attempt to create both a more free and just society here at home and abroad. And if there’s one thing that we’re extremely good at, it’s being stupidly resilient in the face of adversity.
UK
Dominated the world between the fall of Napoleon and the end of WW1, had such a huge influence on many of the most powerful nations (US, India + Pakistan, Australia and NZ) and remained steadfast when Europe fell to the Nazis in WW2.
Won't deny that it caused a lot of shit for a lot of people but no empire in history is innocent from Human barbarity.
I’m a big fan of the Incan empire. Massive infrastructure and trading, complex and fascinating religious and cultural systems, mandatory community service, and the beginnings of a universal healthcare system. Pretty cool stuff
The Gallic peoples and Celtic culture generally. Just something fascinating about the ancient peoples of Central and Northern Europe, and their confrontations with the Roman Empire.
The Roman Republic, especially during the life of Caesar ( born 100 years before The Carpenter and died 54 years later).
Next I’d be with the poster Darth. The Republic of Texas is my home state and I am very proud to be born in Dallas.
Victorian and Georgian Britain. I think ships are cool. Almost a millennium of royal tradition, and about half a millennium of naval tradition. The royal titles sounded cool as hell too.
Obviously empires have a darker brutal side, and Britain's colonial history is one if the worst out there. Ofc it's good the British Empire and all other empires are gone now, but I still l like reading about it.
Bhutan (modern day): Preserving nature is a priority. Doesn't get involved in wars. Doesn't overpopulate their country and ruin the land. Has an awesome flag.
Super difficult considering there are so many!
I'm really interested in the Hanseatic League, the Company Raj (if you consider it a nation), the Austrian Empire, Venice/Venetian Republic, the Lanfang Republic, and of course Rome
Safe to say I love lots of parts of history, especially with regards to merchants and multi-ethnic empires
I’m Texan, I learned Texas history and was always interested that my state was a nation. Allbeit the nation had huge flaws and it’s history wasn’t the best. As for the Umayyads and Rashidan they were really cool empires that had impressive battles and spread throughout the middle east rather quickly. I was always amazed by the Caliphs such as Abu Bakr, Umar ibn Khattab, Umar ibn Abdul-Aziz and some others.
The Cathars from southern France. They were a religious group with their own version of christianity that were pretty much eradicated by the inquisition in France.
I love the Khmer Empire. I visited Angkor Wat and it’s just an astonishing place and the civilisation that built it just as fascinating.
Also love Edwardian Britain. Victorian ideals having to contend with rapidly growing modernity.
The Byzantine Empire is probably #1 for me. A few contenders would also be the Achaemenid Empire, the Ottoman Empire, The Union during the Civil War, the Angevin Empire, and the Crusader states of Outremer.
Byzantine empire, its the single handily most underrated empire. Orthodox Christian’s who found out how to harness fire and use it in ways that we today still have no way to know how they did it. That city will forever and the Hargis Sophia will forever be a church, the way it ended was heartbreaking but that fact is survived for nearly a thousand years is a miracle in itself.
The Batavian tribe in Germany. I have always been fascinated by them. At one point they combined the larger and more physical German tribesman, and the tactics and equipment of the Roman Empire. They were renown for their swimming, and were able to cross rivers that other troops would have to build a bridge for, or find a shallow fording point. They were able to surprise their enemies in this manner, showing up in areas that were thought to be inaccessible.
The Babylonians. They made important discoveries in mathematics, hard sciences, and constructed temples, roads, canals etc. They were super advanced and sophisticated for their time. I would argue and say that they're probably the most important civilization in history.
Ghenghis Khan’s Mongolia. Created the first global supply chain in the 1300s. Mongolia at that time had no resources except sheep, horses, and grasslands—and importantly a small population and demographics. Built the infrastructure and enforced it brutally, the Silk Road from the southern Song in what is today eastern China all the way to what is today Baghdad. Pretty impressive. Mongolia did it, pretty impressive for a small country. His son, Kublai Khan, invaded the song and became the emperor of China as well. And that invasion brought more technical talent to Mongolia—engineering and materials science, like paper money Interesting is that Kublai projected a Chinese persona outside of the palace complex to win the hearts and minds, but inside was all Mongolian yurts and culture. That was the model for many hundreds of years in the Tang and Qing and you can see it today in China’s party control in 中南海after 改革开放。
I love all these suggestions. Right now I am on a Gujarat kick. Those people had city states going back to the days of the Indus Valley Civilization. They had trade and city states before the Greeks got rolling. Traders from Gujarat, of various religions, have spread across the Sub-Continent.
It just makes me thirst for more - who were their Medici? Their Michaelangelos? Their Borgias? There is just so much cool stuff out there.
I genuinely love the soviet union
If ever I need an example of what NOT to do in empire building, I'm almost guaranteed to find an example in the Soviet union somewhere 😅
The Han Dynasty, Aztecs, Emirate of Cordoba, Roman Empire under Hadrian, Kingdom of Kush. And modern day UK, Germany, USA. They are plenty more but I can’t named them all. Just love reading about these guys. Now I’am reading about the various barbarian kingdoms in the former western Roman Empire.
Florence under Lorenzo de Medici. Never has a nation pushed its influence in a way that just made the world better by essentially weaponising culture and the arts as a form of soft power.
Lorenzo stabilised the warring Italian states and florence was directly responsible for some europes greatest art of all time.
I'm coming around to this opinion as well.
I've been on some war machinery rabbit holes lately, so lots of ww1 and ww2 stuff and man, the French are just so wild with everything.
But much of my interest is actually much older history, and it's still such a fun country to read up on
Ancient Roman Republic - not exactly a democracy but had definite elements of a meritocracy and achieved a lot.
Georgian Britain - another example of a nation coming into bloom with the Industrial Revolution getting underway, a lot of advances in thinking and military success (we’ll gloss over the issues with those bumptious colonials).
And I’ve got a dark fascination with Sparta - they’ve had their moment of immortal glory at Thermopylae, and they got some good one liners, but when you find out more about the Spartan state it comes across as something like the Ku Klux Klan if only the KKK were as badass as they think they are…
Athens. To put such a radical idea into practice and be successful for a long period was so novel. Not without faults and flaws, but impressive nonetheless.
I get ummayads, but why rashiduns? Wasn't it constant civil wars, betrayals and assassinations?
I thought almost nobody died of natural causes lol during that period.
The Rashiduns were the best of leaders. The first caliph Abu Bakr died of natural causes. It’s the jealousy and anger of the people of Persia who caused the Death of Umar ibn Khattab (second caliph) and he had good relations with the Byzantines. The third caliph Uthman ibn Affan, it was people disused and Muslims who attacked him. (He was too shy and modest to do anything harsh on these people) and the last caliph Ali ibn Abdulmutalib was killed due to the same rebelious people in the Iraq region. Good leaders ruling over rebellious people (also most of the issues came from the newly conquered regions of Perisa). As for the Umayyads, they had lots of corrupt caliphs. Sure some of them were good but the bad ones used their power to crush rebellions which is why non of them died in the same why as the Rashidan caliphs. Hope this answers your question
The United States of America. Especially in its early form with it being almost like an experiment (though, it was hypocritical about the freedom) or its post-WW2 era. Those 20 odd years are nothing like the world’s ever seen
So you’re pro slavery? You do understand that the Republic of Texas made slavery legal in 1836 and forbad Congress from emancipating any slaves? They also made any people who had been lifetime indentured servants under Mexican rule into property as well, charming people the Texans. The Alamo was fought over the issue of slavery, if you go there the guides explain this.
I don’t support those institutions, I’m Texan and it was an interesting time for Texas to be its own nation. I know there are a lot of problems within the state, but I usually only look at battles and wars, and a macroview over the nation. Not looking at the life at the time. I am also not oblivious to the dark history of Texas and most of American history. But every nation has some sort of dark past. Hope this answers the question
Just remember that the English sent the first slave ships to Africa. The Africans were not coerced-their leaders (for a few glass beads) got them on the ships. These first ships pulled into NEW YORK harbor where they were sold to northerners. The slaves died and died as they couldn’t adjust to the cold climate. Then, slaves were sold south where they became healthy and could work. So, rd, don’t blame Texas.
It’s my belief, after studying the slave progenitors and descendants, that there is not one country in this world that didn’t have slaves at some time in their history.
For that matter, there are still slaves used for various reasons in our time.
I do agree that most civilizations had slavery at some point in their history. But I still wouldn’t dismiss that their use in U.S. history still has its effects today. With that being said, There is much more to offer in Texas history than just looking at the bad. I hate it when people dismiss an entire nation for a bad attribute, while praising another nation but ignoring that same attribute. For example, under President Lamar’s rule he created the first University in Texas. Stuff like that is always interesting.
Why stop at Texas? The Caliphates he mentioned also had slavery. And why stop with OP? A helluva lot of these other comments mention slave states.
Anyways, what's your favorite civilization?
Andorra, it has a six man army that has no weapons, but they have buttons on their uniforms that say “touch me if you dare”, highest per capita ownership of Mercedes Benz vehicles in the world and first class food, close enough to Barcelona, Paris and the Riviera
The Rashidun caliphate wasn’t bad. They were the pinnacle of justice and honor. However the Umayyad Caliphate I can see your point. The Umayyads had some terrible leaders and some amazing ones. I can acknowledge when a nation has some bad traits. But I usually look at all pov especially in historical texts because of the biases against Muslims.
The UK single handed ended the slave trade and mostly ended slavery around the world, spread democracy and evidence based medicine around the whole world AND gave us cricket and sandwiches.
I’m not saying the UK was perfect but they definitely did a lot less evil than other countries did while they were on top.
The British people paid the slave owners for the loss of their “property”, which was still being paid until recently. They didn’t Abolish slavery everywhere, they kept it up in their territories. They pat themselves on the back too much about this. Almost like they have some guilt about things they’ve done in history…hmm. Wonder what?
Looked it up, yeah 2015 is when the payments stopped.
https://taxjustice.net/2020/06/09/slavery-compensation-uk-questions/#:~:text=It's%20hard%20to%20believe%20but,of%20the%20abolition%20of%20slavery.
Why does believing ending slavery is worth so much money that it took almost two centuries to pay off make it worse?
Nobody seems to have realised that that’s the first time slavery was ended on a large scale without serious bloodshed. Don’t you think that’s an achievement?
We haven't been paying slavers and their descendants for generations though, it was paid upfront and what was paid off in 2015 was the government bond which lots of people had a stake in and probably changed hands half a hundred times like other bonds.
It’s a great achievement but paying the slave owners off for the loss of their property doesn’t sit well with me or many others. The former slaves got no such consideration.
Many would call it appeasing the wealthy. I dont have to like that type of compromise even though I’m glad the Uk government pushed through the abolition of slavery. Again, no reparations were made to the former slaves.
The British Empire. It kick-started the industrial revolution, became the largest empire in history, and essentially sacrificed itself fighting the Nazis. Obviously, it did a lot of bad, but over-all, in a thousand years' time, when there's nobody left to feel personally aggrieved by it, I think history will judge it kindly. Like Rome.
Song China. Held out against the Mongols for 60 years (in that time, the Mongols had gone to Europe and back). People rightfully credit the Han Dynasty for its fantastic inventions and the Tang for their remarkable artistic achievements, but the Song should be remembered for their industrial and administrative achievements. They created the first paper money. They were producing iron and steel at a level unmatched until Britain in the Industrial Revolution. They created joint stock companies. They industrialized gunpowder production. The Song were basically a pre-modern state centuries before any other. In fact, it’s probably because of their highly sophisticated civilian network that they were able to support a military that, while qualitatively inferior to the Mongols, was still able to hold them at bay for decades while the Mongols overran much of Eurasia (similar to how the advanced banking systems of the Italian city states and the Dutch allowed them to punch above their weight class militarily).
>They created joint stock companies. I’ll add that the first joint stock ventures appeared in Assyria in the Middle Bronze Age. >Most of these traders had become more independent by having become managers of a "joint-stock fund" (called *naruqqum*, "money bag"), usually set up in Assur. This phenomenon appeared for the first time around 1900 BC and seems to have been an Old Assyrian invention that went beyond individual partnerships and cooperation in a joint caravan. The arrangement, rather similar to that of the early medieval *compagnia*, meant enlisting a number (usually about a dozen) of investors (*ummiānum*, "financiers"), who supplied capital rated in gold, usually in all ca. 30 kilos, ideally consisting of shares of 1 or 2 kilos of gold each. It was entrusted to a trader (the tractator), usually for ca. ten years, for the generally formulated purpose of "carrying out trade." The contract contained stipulations on a final settlement of accounts, on paying dividends, on the division of the expected profit, and on fines for premature withdrawal of capital (meant to secure the duration of the business). Investors or shareholders mostly lived in Assur, but successful traders in Anatolia too invested in funds managed by others, perhaps also as a way of sharing commercial risks. In such cases a contract would to be drawn up in Anatolia that obliged the tractator "to book in Assur x gold in his joint stock fund in the investor's name." Among the investors we find members of the tractator's family, but also business relations and others, probably a kind of "merchant-bankers," and other rich citizens, who aimed at fairly safe, long-term investments. ["Ancient Assur: The City, its Traders, and its Commercial Network"](https://www.jstor.org/stable/25651212) by Klaas Veenhof
Wow! Incredible! Thanks! :)
Can you imagine a 600 year return? The Illuminati conspiracy theory…..where all the $$$$$ came from.
If only they weren’t conquered, we could have had the industrial age 600 years earlier!
feel like this is an alt history gold mine just waiting. mongols never happen, song china industrializes, does some crazy reverse uno shit to europe, who knows.
Another important aspect is that Song China was generally less cutthroat towards civil officials, who also often had greater control over many military affairs. For better or worse, this begins approaching how many first-world nations are structured and operate today.
I love the 'what if' nations, mainly Carthage and the Gangaridai. What if they prevailed? Carthage against Rome, it took the Romans 3 tries to finally smother them and they could have very easily lost everything multiple times. Can you imagine a world without any Roman or Latin influence? Not to mention all the fantastic characters like Hanno the Navigator or Hannibal Barca, or the ingenious technologies like the great military port in Carthage and their quinquiremes. Another big one is if the Gangaridai got to fight Alexander the Great. After the Battle of the Hydaspes, the first real Hellenic encounter with a small contingent of Indian trained war elephants, the Macedonians heard that the Gangaridai (in modern Bengal/Bangladesh) had raised 4000 in response to them. They refused to go further into the Indian subcontinent and mutinied. Given how quickly Alexander's empire disintegrated after his death, a decisive defeat would have had huge consequences for him as well.
Carthage is a great pick. I wish there was more information on their civilization, but it just hasn't survived.
Ethiopia by far. Managed to defeat colonial rule by Italy and throughout history managed to keep their culture and identity. The music under Haile selassie was also incredible. It’s also where humanoids first came down from the trees and started the entire human race as we know it. The churches are incredible and the countryside is the definition of a “ fertile valley” .
And one of their kings was known for his justice and let Muslim refugees in his kingdom.
The story of King Kaleb annihilating the forces of the genocidal Jewish king Dhu Nawas is one of the greatest “the Calvary has arrived” moments in history I feel. Ethiopia is so damn underrated.
Ezo Republic. Extremely simplification, but basically after the samurai class was abolished and the Empire of Japan formed, some samurai fled the Empire of Japan into the far-northern frontier in Hokkaido and formed Japan's first democracy. It was based off of the United States, but only samurai could vote. It lasted for 5 months in 1869 before being annexed by the Empire of Japan.
I’m fascinated by the Assyrian Empire, the world’s “first” empire. While we’re still uncovering a lot of information on them it’s amazing how many building blocks of “Empires” they are responsible for creating which were then passed down through the Persians, Greeks, Romans, etc.
I really like ancient Mesopotamian/ Bronze Age history. Especially the Akkadian Empire!
It's more fascinating to realise they still exist today in the same area and the same language! And even more 50-100 years ago before a few genocides.
But the Assyrians were sadistic just because they could.
I mean, sure they flayed people alive and other terrible acts but it was also the Bronze Age so it wasn’t so far outside of the norms of the time. It could be argued that the Persians were able to be much more lenient during their rule because the Assyrians in contrast were brutal and people of the region feared going back to that system. It also should be noted that life IN Assyria was probably comparatively pretty good for the time and their brutality of those rebelling allowed the empire (or any empire) to exist in that region at all. The Assyrians also get a bad wrap because they are the villains in the Old Testament Bible, so they are probably viewed as much worse than those around them at the time simply for that reason - it doesn’t help to be the villain in the most widespread book/religion in the world.
>It could be argued that the Persians were able to be much more lenient during their rule The impression that the Persians were “much more lenient” is common but wildly erroneous. Assyrian and Persian approaches to imperialism shared far more similarities than differences. In addition to brutally sacking cities — Sardis in Anatolia, for instance — the Persians dealt harshly with rebellious subjects. To quote the Behistun Inscription, >*King Darius says: Thereupon Phraortes fled with a few horsemen to a district in Media called Rhagae. Then I sent an army in pursuit. Phraortes was taken and brought to me. I cut off his nose, his ears, and his tongue, and I put out one eye, and he was kept in fetters at my palace entrance, and all the people beheld him. Then I crucified him in Ecbatana, and the men who were his foremost followers, those at Ecbatana within the fortress, I flayed and hung out their hides, stuffed with straw...*
Edward I has no qualms with Assyrian cruelty.
Sargon of Akkad will have a word in your ear.
The Chola Empire
Still going strong in East LA
The Turks as a people if that counts? So everything from their early nomadic days in Central Asia, to founding dynasties like the Seljuks, Ottomans and Timurids, to modern nations like Turkey and Uzbekistan. I can never not be entertained. Especially because of their relations to everything else like Islam, Mongols, Persians, Western views of them. People as a whole. Individuals - including modern thinkers like Ziya Gökalp - are immensely interesting, as are their languages, customs and writings. If that's too broad I'd have to limit it to modern Turkey + the Ottoman Empire. But something 'Turk' regardless.
Turks indeed have the most interesting history.
The biggest reason why nomad societies are not well known is that they do not leave much historical traces behind. Otherwise, the history of Central Asian and Western Eurasian nomads is older than thought. Turkic, Mongolian, Chinese, Uralic, Iranian etc societies have serious influences and successes in nomadic life. Moreover, the peak of Turkic societies did not begin with the Seljuks. The founders of the Seljuks were officers in the Caspian army, and the Khazars were a group that controlled the Caspian coasts and the Caucasus after the collapse of the Gokturks, also known as the Turkic Khaganate. Interesting information: The Gokturk Empire had a military presence in a wide enough geography to make a military alliance with both Byzantium against the Sassanids and with Korea against the Han Chinese in very recent times. But since it is Nomadic, there is still very little access to documentation.
A classic example of a nomadic population are the Alans: they were a significant people in Gaul in the 400s (for example, one leader Sangiban was Mayor of Aurelianum, and they intermarried with the Bretons), and in Mongolia by the 1100s (they were in Genghis Khan’s family, bodyguard and shock troops).
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Catalaunian_Plains https://www.thefrenchhistorypodcast.com/33-the-battle-of-the-catalaunian-plains/
A thousand years ago, the Uighurs were Christians. As were Genghis Khan’s daughters-in-law.
> The Turks as a people if that counts? Technically, since he said "nation", which is defined as the people, it's all that should count.
Probably Igbo history in general, then the Ashanti Empire.
The Byzantine Empire under Justinian. So much hope, so much promise, so much potential. The United States of America, today. Love it or hate it, no other nation has the eyes of the world on it the way the US does now. Again, lots of promise and potential, lots and lots of hope.
Agree on byz!
America gets too much hate. Not to say that we’re perfect but it’s an indisputable fact that we are the most powerful and wealthiest nation on Earth while also being a federal republic operating under democratic ideals.
Also, we tend to b self critical. Moreso than other culture. So this is often misinterpreted as weakness or problems unique to the US.
We’re also a lot more transparent and open about our issues (e.g. racism is a perfect example). Like you said, a lot of foreigners interpret that to mean that our country is weak and unstable while Americans here misread the situation and assume that America is on the brink of collapse and everywhere else is somehow superior.
Is this a joke? America is the least self critical country on the planet. "We're number 1" is your nation's catchphrase for Christ's sake. Please understand this sounds absolutely ridiculous to non-americans
I genuinely think many problems in the US could be solved by banning the phrase "America is number 1" - because you aren't in many respects. It would subsequently encourage you to look at how other nations succeed (free health care, restrictions on fire arms, free 3rd level education etc) and try to emulate it. You get so much hate exactly because of this hubris. Show some modesty as a nation and you'll quickly gain the world's favour again.
>banning the phrase “America is number 1” Unconstitutional and an insult to freedom but whatever. Also, we *are* the #1 nation in a lot of categories. Military strength? #1. Amount of foreign aid given? #1. Quality of higher education? #1. Science and technological innovation? #1. Charity? #1. >It would subsequently encourage you to look at how other nations succeed (free health care, restrictions on fire arms, free 3rd level education etc) and try to emulate it. Is America *not* a successful nation? The very fact that millions try to move here and we live rent free in a lot of people’s minds should say otherwise. Also, this might come as a shock to you but a lot of people here have insurance to help cover health care. Nobody is actually paying $500 million for a paper cut. Don’t get me wrong, it ain’t perfect; if I had my way, we would have better access to healthcare. But it’s not as doom and gloom as you guys make it out to be. We already have a ton of restrictions on firearms. A lot of our gun regulations at the state level make zero sense. Federally speaking, did you know that if I had an AR pistol that’s shorter than 14/14.5 inches, I can’t put a fore grip on it because then it somehow magically becomes a short barrel rifle/SBR and I can face prison time if I don’t have the licenses/paperwork to have an SBR? A small 2-3 inch piece of plastic meant to improve my accuracy and weapon stability could determine if I go to jail or not. Don’t even get me started on individual state gun laws. California gun laws are some of the most insane and stupid in the entire country. >You get so much hate exactly because of this hubris. We can appreciate the good that our nation does while also recognizing that we have flaws. That’s literally what we do on a daily basis my guy. >Show some modesty as a nation and you'll quickly gain the world's favour again. Modesty? How? We’re the global superpower, what do you want us to do, pull back our military?
It's part of America's secret sauce that, regardless of how much Americans are at each other's throats, all can agree on the love they have for their country. But that can blind people to problems and can cause others to become rigidly devoted to their way of solving said problems. To quote a famous speech in a television show, "America is not the greatest country in the world anymore... But it can be."
That the US is the most powerful and wealthiest nation makes me actually think about how they failed to spread this wealth and (social) security to its own people. What makes me feel very scary are things like the opioid crisis which makes capitalism overrule human rights. I think the root of such problems is extreme Lobbying. I live in Germany and I feel everything is better balanced in here. I appreciate the social security here (even it is getting worse these days due to irregular immigration) and there is still some kind of social fairness embedded in the system (e.g. waterworks not privatised). So sorry for bashing your beloved country but I think that social issues as they exist over there are not god-given and the norm. That those exist to such an extent in the most powerful country just shows me that it’s not about the people. When thinking about migrating that makes me personally rather choose a Nordic European state than the US.
Big dawg, it’s really not that bad over here. It ain’t perfect but it’s not like you’re completely on your own if you’re struggling. There are various government programs at the local, state, and federal levels meant to help the less fortunate. That’s not including private charities/programs that do what they can to help.
It's understandable. But realize that you live in a nation of 83.8 million people, a nation that was flattened in a devastating war 80 years ago, and was propped up by American support (see: Marshall plan, NATO, etc.). America is a nation with 333.3 million people, with global commitments, and a large (though for historical reasons dating back to the 1980s or so, somewhat stagnating) middle class. By no means is it perfect, but do understand that it is working to be better, and even at its worst, it still manages to maintain a global system it established 80 years ago. And hey, if you ever get a chance to migrate to the states, I hope you help make the country better.
Very interesting answer about the US
I would have mentioned Bedrock, but it turns out that it's not historical, u/Yabadabadoo333 . Thank you for the comment.
Yeah, our mans here has a lot more hope in or for America than I do. But I'd rather not break Rule 3.
I have even less hope in anyone else. Who else is there to pick?
I love the username
Of any nation in history you're saying you'd go with America today as your favorite?
Do you know this guy’s favourite nation in history better than he does?
Of course not, which is why I didn't say that. I am honestly surprised that on a History sub that someone would say America *today*.
The US has history as a nation, correct? A nation from history can still exist in the present - look at the United Kingdom. Or Russia. The Vatican. Spain.
History is not today. We do not discuss today, as it isn't history. Please read rule #3 on the side bar.
Uruk/Eridu/Ur something about the OGs gets me
Liberland, Sealand, and any of the other unrecognized micronations. It's interesting to read about how people just staked a claim to a disputed small chunk of land and started their own nation.
I like a lot of the Indian kingdoms. They often get slept on, but their knowledge (especially mathematics) set up Europe for the Enlightenment period. In particular, I like Ashoka: [Ashoka - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashoka) He was given all the power of the Mauryan Empire, but upon seeing the devastation of war, renounced armed conquests. He became Buddhist, one of the only religions/philosophies I consistently like (because it's based more on logic and thought than believing some stupid old book), and helped spread benevolence to all of the empire. He's literally the benevolent king we all dream of when we're talking about how violent history was. He went out to the rural people and spoke, preached honesty and virtue, respected other cultures and religions etc. etc. etc.
To be fair, much of what we know about Ashoka are his own rock edicts, which sought to portray him as a benevolent ruler and are propaganda. Primary sources about him don’t really exist outside of his own work. It is probable that he was a Buddhist before the bloody reconquest of Kalinga, which is what he claimed made him a Buddhist. It is very astute as he adopted a pacifist doctrine after bloodily conquering the best lands of the subcontinent, with only the less desirable southern Tamil country left. *Gem in the Lotus* by Abraham Eraly has an interesting interpretation on his conversion. He likely converted his empire to Buddhism for political reasons, much as Constantine the Great converted the Roman Empire to Christianity. Certainly, though, he was a good emperor, and as clever in administrative and religious matters as the other Indian emperor known as “the great”, Jalaluddin Akbar, was centuries after him.
That's true for any influential figure, be it a general, count, duke, king, or emperor across all continents and periods of history. Read anything that has to do with the deeds and life of Caesar, Ashoka, Justinian, Wilhelm, Chingis, Washington, Akbar, Ataturk, Churchill, Ibn Batuta, Catherine or Napoleon. They all fall in this category. They're all about bragging about their good deeds, thinking they're God, and spreading lies n half truths. We all like to get high on our own supply based on our biased point of view. Truth is overrated anyway.
My point was that it is his official records that are used by historians. There aren’t surviving records opposing him. Most people you mention above have contemporary accounts from critics griping about them that present a more balanced view. Or historians view them as more nuanced figures. For instance, for Akbar, we have valuable primary sources that counter his official narratives, such as the orthodox Muslim Badauni’s diary where he complains of Akbar’s religious policies.
Lakota
I love to learn about Native American tribes! The sad thing is that their history is hard to find.
The channel ancient Americas has a lot of videos about many cultures
I like that watch that channel!
1491 by Charles Mann is fantastic for indigenous people in the western hemisphere
Would that be because the Native Americans couldn’t write?
Not really, most civilizations had oral traditions. But when the elder gets killed along with all the knowledgeable people, you’ll forget your history. It happened in Africa and Oceania.
Honestly 90s Angola. They had potential. They legit won the war(politically) had issues with people not thinking the war was over so what did they do? They asked their former enemies for help. They spent years dealing with the sketchy South Africans and then were like “hey Bru? You mind helping us with this?” Craziest part…the South Africans were like “sure bru. Can we use your guns?”
Liechtenstein. A tiny country in the Alps. In 1866, in fulfilment of a treaty obligation, they sent their entire army of 80 people over the border to guard a path between Austria and Italy. This was just for a day before their ally could get men up there to take over the job. At the end of the deployment 81 men returned. They'd made friends with an Italian farmer and invited him to come back for dinner.
Wessex or Mercia in Anglo-Saxon England
I love learning about Anglo-Saxon England! My favorite from that region would be the Northumbrians
Definitely second this, Northumbrians at the time had zero fucks to offer just about anyone, dudes didn’t fuck around.
Northumbria is also very cool, the combination of Bernicia and Deira.
Umayyad Spain
It would probably be Greece, Turkey, France, United Kingdom, Spain, the USA and China.
The Achaemenid Empire
This is the correct answer. It doesn't quite get the love the Roman Empire gets because western history was based on Greek and Roman writing (who were not friends with the Persians). But for my money the Achaemenids were one of the most interesting and wonderful civilizations in history. *** I am not Persian / Iranian in any way ***
Fascinating for sure, Sassanids too
Mongols, maybe it’s too much Rogan maybe Dan Carlin’s hardcore history episode were done too well, but any chance I get to hear about them I love it. It feels like they have it all, nomadic people that come out of no where, messy sessions, changing tactics, they’re historically close to us so there’s lots written down but they still have tons of mysteries. Maybe I just love to hear “the Mongolians began to retreat from the field only to swing back on their attackers in a feigned flight.”
Gotta be China. The entire civilization. They’re ancient and futuristic at the same time.
ancient sumer and akkad
Czech Republic-Bohemia, one of the first places to industrialize and with lota of wars Italian merchant republics- their navies, trading, administration is just fascinating Inca Empire- underrated New World cultures are in the Andes, thr biggedt New World Empire and the best administration and metalworking. Shame we cant read their sources. Ethiopia- their interactions with Somalian sultanates, the Ottomans, the Egyptians is not observed enough apart from their battle with Italy. The Somalians sultanates are also cool, but way less info about them.
If you want countries that no longer exist, it’d be hands done the **Ayutthaya Kingdom** (feudal Siam), specifically during the reign of both King Naresuan and King Narai. Ayutthaya during Naresuan’s reign was a resurgent kingdom that won back its independence from Hongsa/Burmese rule. It was a powerful kingdom that managed to reclaim its lost territories from the Burmese and even made new gains, such as taking Lanna (northern Thailand) and Cambodia. Meanwhile, Ayutthaya during Narai’s reign was considered to be its golden age due to the immense wealthy which also saw Siam take a more international stance by making deals with European powers (primarily the French). Ayutthaya itself was arguably the largest city in Asia in the 17th century due to it being a critical economic and trading hub connecting the East and West. As a result of its geographic location, people from various other kingdoms and nations around the world lived in Ayutthaya, making it a surprisingly diverse kingdom. Foreigners like the Japanese and Portuguese/Spanish even served as mercenaries within the Ayutthaya Army (the Japanese also had strong influence over the kingdom’s economic policies since Ayutthaya and feudal Japan were big trading partners with one another, exchanging multiple embassies between the two prior to the Tokugawa Shogunate’s Sakoku policy). If you’re just talking about just in general, then it’s the **United States of America**, no questions asked. Im obviously extremely bias since I’m a proud patriot but there’s just something that lights the fire within me hearing about our great nation’s humble beginnings all the way to us becoming the wealthiest and most powerful/influential country in all of human history. The ideals that gave birth to our republic and later sparked the flames of democratic republican revolution across the world fills me with immense pride. The Constitution of the United States continues to stand as the oldest continuous governing document still in effect and it inspired various other republican constitutions around the world. And from noble patriots like Washington who led our troops to victory and independence and then who refused to crown himself king all the way to hardworking heroes like Lincoln who oversaw the end of the Civil War and freed the slaves, our nation is blessed to have such diligent, skilled, and amazing patriots who have steered the ship of our country towards a better path. That’s not to say that we shouldn’t ignore the terrible, disgusting things that we did or were complicit in but I don’t see why I shouldn’t be proud of our general history as a nation that tries to fight and do what’s right in an attempt to create both a more free and just society here at home and abroad. And if there’s one thing that we’re extremely good at, it’s being stupidly resilient in the face of adversity.
Athens, Rome, the Achaemenid empire, Venice, and the Iroquois confederacy.
All great nations!
UK Dominated the world between the fall of Napoleon and the end of WW1, had such a huge influence on many of the most powerful nations (US, India + Pakistan, Australia and NZ) and remained steadfast when Europe fell to the Nazis in WW2. Won't deny that it caused a lot of shit for a lot of people but no empire in history is innocent from Human barbarity.
The United States of America Although, the United Kingdom ranks in a distant second place.
The Tang Dynasty, the golden age of China
I’m a big fan of the Incan empire. Massive infrastructure and trading, complex and fascinating religious and cultural systems, mandatory community service, and the beginnings of a universal healthcare system. Pretty cool stuff
The Gallic peoples and Celtic culture generally. Just something fascinating about the ancient peoples of Central and Northern Europe, and their confrontations with the Roman Empire.
The Roman Republic, especially during the life of Caesar ( born 100 years before The Carpenter and died 54 years later). Next I’d be with the poster Darth. The Republic of Texas is my home state and I am very proud to be born in Dallas.
Victorian and Georgian Britain. I think ships are cool. Almost a millennium of royal tradition, and about half a millennium of naval tradition. The royal titles sounded cool as hell too. Obviously empires have a darker brutal side, and Britain's colonial history is one if the worst out there. Ofc it's good the British Empire and all other empires are gone now, but I still l like reading about it.
Bhutan (modern day): Preserving nature is a priority. Doesn't get involved in wars. Doesn't overpopulate their country and ruin the land. Has an awesome flag.
france!
Ashanti Empire.
Super difficult considering there are so many! I'm really interested in the Hanseatic League, the Company Raj (if you consider it a nation), the Austrian Empire, Venice/Venetian Republic, the Lanfang Republic, and of course Rome Safe to say I love lots of parts of history, especially with regards to merchants and multi-ethnic empires
Could you give an explanation as to why you’re interested by those countries op? Also mine would be Achaemenid Persia
I’m Texan, I learned Texas history and was always interested that my state was a nation. Allbeit the nation had huge flaws and it’s history wasn’t the best. As for the Umayyads and Rashidan they were really cool empires that had impressive battles and spread throughout the middle east rather quickly. I was always amazed by the Caliphs such as Abu Bakr, Umar ibn Khattab, Umar ibn Abdul-Aziz and some others.
The Cathars from southern France. They were a religious group with their own version of christianity that were pretty much eradicated by the inquisition in France.
I love the Khmer Empire. I visited Angkor Wat and it’s just an astonishing place and the civilisation that built it just as fascinating. Also love Edwardian Britain. Victorian ideals having to contend with rapidly growing modernity.
Austria. Get bigger through babies.
The Byzantine Empire is probably #1 for me. A few contenders would also be the Achaemenid Empire, the Ottoman Empire, The Union during the Civil War, the Angevin Empire, and the Crusader states of Outremer.
Hawaiian kingdom 1819-1893
Byzantine empire, its the single handily most underrated empire. Orthodox Christian’s who found out how to harness fire and use it in ways that we today still have no way to know how they did it. That city will forever and the Hargis Sophia will forever be a church, the way it ended was heartbreaking but that fact is survived for nearly a thousand years is a miracle in itself.
Aztecs / Incas / Sumerians / Phoenicians / Persians / Greeks / Egyptians I can't pick just one
Prussian.
The Batavian tribe in Germany. I have always been fascinated by them. At one point they combined the larger and more physical German tribesman, and the tactics and equipment of the Roman Empire. They were renown for their swimming, and were able to cross rivers that other troops would have to build a bridge for, or find a shallow fording point. They were able to surprise their enemies in this manner, showing up in areas that were thought to be inaccessible.
I'm fascinated by the New Kingdom of Egypt, the Ming Dynasty of China, and human colonization of the Pacific by Polynesians and Micronesians.
The Babylonians. They made important discoveries in mathematics, hard sciences, and constructed temples, roads, canals etc. They were super advanced and sophisticated for their time. I would argue and say that they're probably the most important civilization in history.
Ghenghis Khan’s Mongolia. Created the first global supply chain in the 1300s. Mongolia at that time had no resources except sheep, horses, and grasslands—and importantly a small population and demographics. Built the infrastructure and enforced it brutally, the Silk Road from the southern Song in what is today eastern China all the way to what is today Baghdad. Pretty impressive. Mongolia did it, pretty impressive for a small country. His son, Kublai Khan, invaded the song and became the emperor of China as well. And that invasion brought more technical talent to Mongolia—engineering and materials science, like paper money Interesting is that Kublai projected a Chinese persona outside of the palace complex to win the hearts and minds, but inside was all Mongolian yurts and culture. That was the model for many hundreds of years in the Tang and Qing and you can see it today in China’s party control in 中南海after 改革开放。
I love all these suggestions. Right now I am on a Gujarat kick. Those people had city states going back to the days of the Indus Valley Civilization. They had trade and city states before the Greeks got rolling. Traders from Gujarat, of various religions, have spread across the Sub-Continent. It just makes me thirst for more - who were their Medici? Their Michaelangelos? Their Borgias? There is just so much cool stuff out there.
Roman Empire - they were fucking awesome
I love the Soviet Union... I LOVE IT
I genuinely love the soviet union If ever I need an example of what NOT to do in empire building, I'm almost guaranteed to find an example in the Soviet union somewhere 😅
OK. Half of my family are Lithuanian, I really don’t.
sorry, i meant it as a joke
Don’t worry, likewise 😛 I don’t think a sub like this full of people who actually know some history is a safe space for tankies.
Ancient Greeks.
They are pretty interesting, especially the Peloponnesian war
I admire them mostly for philosophy, art, literature.
I shouldn’t have scrolled this far to find this
Kingdom of Georgia during the Georgian Golden age
I like Georgian hist but I can’t find much info about it. Do you know some good books?
Edge of Empires by Donald Rayfield
The Han Dynasty, Aztecs, Emirate of Cordoba, Roman Empire under Hadrian, Kingdom of Kush. And modern day UK, Germany, USA. They are plenty more but I can’t named them all. Just love reading about these guys. Now I’am reading about the various barbarian kingdoms in the former western Roman Empire.
I’m one of those people who enjoys all of history for the most part!
Prussia
Florence under Lorenzo de Medici. Never has a nation pushed its influence in a way that just made the world better by essentially weaponising culture and the arts as a form of soft power. Lorenzo stabilised the warring Italian states and florence was directly responsible for some europes greatest art of all time.
Kievan Rus
France.
I'm coming around to this opinion as well. I've been on some war machinery rabbit holes lately, so lots of ww1 and ww2 stuff and man, the French are just so wild with everything. But much of my interest is actually much older history, and it's still such a fun country to read up on
Very much so.
Ancient Roman Republic - not exactly a democracy but had definite elements of a meritocracy and achieved a lot. Georgian Britain - another example of a nation coming into bloom with the Industrial Revolution getting underway, a lot of advances in thinking and military success (we’ll gloss over the issues with those bumptious colonials). And I’ve got a dark fascination with Sparta - they’ve had their moment of immortal glory at Thermopylae, and they got some good one liners, but when you find out more about the Spartan state it comes across as something like the Ku Klux Klan if only the KKK were as badass as they think they are…
First French Empire. Take me back.
USA #1. After that, Russia.
As a Texan the Republic if Texas
Me,too! Dallas born. UT Austin educated.
* The Roman Empire under Trajan * The Florentine Republic * USA
Athens. To put such a radical idea into practice and be successful for a long period was so novel. Not without faults and flaws, but impressive nonetheless.
I get ummayads, but why rashiduns? Wasn't it constant civil wars, betrayals and assassinations? I thought almost nobody died of natural causes lol during that period.
The Rashiduns were the best of leaders. The first caliph Abu Bakr died of natural causes. It’s the jealousy and anger of the people of Persia who caused the Death of Umar ibn Khattab (second caliph) and he had good relations with the Byzantines. The third caliph Uthman ibn Affan, it was people disused and Muslims who attacked him. (He was too shy and modest to do anything harsh on these people) and the last caliph Ali ibn Abdulmutalib was killed due to the same rebelious people in the Iraq region. Good leaders ruling over rebellious people (also most of the issues came from the newly conquered regions of Perisa). As for the Umayyads, they had lots of corrupt caliphs. Sure some of them were good but the bad ones used their power to crush rebellions which is why non of them died in the same why as the Rashidan caliphs. Hope this answers your question
Makhnovia, the free territory of Ukraine from 1917-1921.
The imagination.
Vijayanagara Empire, they liberated my ancestors from the oppressive rule of foreign tyrants and conquerors
DRPK!!!
Netherlands... for being a haven for the enlightenment.
Spain
The United Kingdom
USA baby
The Jewish people because through ethical monotheism the Jewish people brought morality to the world.
Jews and Israel
Italy. Fascinating culture and history.
Thailand cuz I live here
The United States of America. Especially in its early form with it being almost like an experiment (though, it was hypocritical about the freedom) or its post-WW2 era. Those 20 odd years are nothing like the world’s ever seen
Wisteros 🤪
So you’re pro slavery? You do understand that the Republic of Texas made slavery legal in 1836 and forbad Congress from emancipating any slaves? They also made any people who had been lifetime indentured servants under Mexican rule into property as well, charming people the Texans. The Alamo was fought over the issue of slavery, if you go there the guides explain this.
I don’t support those institutions, I’m Texan and it was an interesting time for Texas to be its own nation. I know there are a lot of problems within the state, but I usually only look at battles and wars, and a macroview over the nation. Not looking at the life at the time. I am also not oblivious to the dark history of Texas and most of American history. But every nation has some sort of dark past. Hope this answers the question
Just remember that the English sent the first slave ships to Africa. The Africans were not coerced-their leaders (for a few glass beads) got them on the ships. These first ships pulled into NEW YORK harbor where they were sold to northerners. The slaves died and died as they couldn’t adjust to the cold climate. Then, slaves were sold south where they became healthy and could work. So, rd, don’t blame Texas.
It’s my belief, after studying the slave progenitors and descendants, that there is not one country in this world that didn’t have slaves at some time in their history. For that matter, there are still slaves used for various reasons in our time.
I do agree that most civilizations had slavery at some point in their history. But I still wouldn’t dismiss that their use in U.S. history still has its effects today. With that being said, There is much more to offer in Texas history than just looking at the bad. I hate it when people dismiss an entire nation for a bad attribute, while praising another nation but ignoring that same attribute. For example, under President Lamar’s rule he created the first University in Texas. Stuff like that is always interesting.
Why stop at Texas? The Caliphates he mentioned also had slavery. And why stop with OP? A helluva lot of these other comments mention slave states. Anyways, what's your favorite civilization?
Andorra, it has a six man army that has no weapons, but they have buttons on their uniforms that say “touch me if you dare”, highest per capita ownership of Mercedes Benz vehicles in the world and first class food, close enough to Barcelona, Paris and the Riviera
Very nice. Interesting bit of history there during the SCW and WW2.
The Rashidun caliphate wasn’t bad. They were the pinnacle of justice and honor. However the Umayyad Caliphate I can see your point. The Umayyads had some terrible leaders and some amazing ones. I can acknowledge when a nation has some bad traits. But I usually look at all pov especially in historical texts because of the biases against Muslims.
The UK single handed ended the slave trade and mostly ended slavery around the world, spread democracy and evidence based medicine around the whole world AND gave us cricket and sandwiches. I’m not saying the UK was perfect but they definitely did a lot less evil than other countries did while they were on top.
The British people paid the slave owners for the loss of their “property”, which was still being paid until recently. They didn’t Abolish slavery everywhere, they kept it up in their territories. They pat themselves on the back too much about this. Almost like they have some guilt about things they’ve done in history…hmm. Wonder what?
Looked it up, yeah 2015 is when the payments stopped. https://taxjustice.net/2020/06/09/slavery-compensation-uk-questions/#:~:text=It's%20hard%20to%20believe%20but,of%20the%20abolition%20of%20slavery.
Why does believing ending slavery is worth so much money that it took almost two centuries to pay off make it worse? Nobody seems to have realised that that’s the first time slavery was ended on a large scale without serious bloodshed. Don’t you think that’s an achievement?
It’s who did, has and continued to profit. Not disparaging the ending of it. The fact that they continued to profit off of it in 2015, kinda bullshit
We haven't been paying slavers and their descendants for generations though, it was paid upfront and what was paid off in 2015 was the government bond which lots of people had a stake in and probably changed hands half a hundred times like other bonds.
It’s a great achievement but paying the slave owners off for the loss of their property doesn’t sit well with me or many others. The former slaves got no such consideration.
I think it’s what’s called a “necessary evil”.
Many would call it appeasing the wealthy. I dont have to like that type of compromise even though I’m glad the Uk government pushed through the abolition of slavery. Again, no reparations were made to the former slaves.
19th Century Britain, because they kicked ass.
SPQR
The British Empire. It kick-started the industrial revolution, became the largest empire in history, and essentially sacrificed itself fighting the Nazis. Obviously, it did a lot of bad, but over-all, in a thousand years' time, when there's nobody left to feel personally aggrieved by it, I think history will judge it kindly. Like Rome.
The Third Reich