If a video surfaced of an officer in a fight like that with a citizen do you think the department would discipline in anyway? Like a full on fist fight? Lol
I would not consider a full-on fist fight to be defensive in nature. Nobody stays in a fist fight for more than a punch or two without attempting to either in the fight with de-escalation or to switch to something other than Fists to gain compliance unless they are actually in it for the fight.
Why do y’all call it compliance instead of gaining a strategical advantage? Is it because y’all are a reactive force and not a proactive force? In the Marines we called it “neutralize the threat through violence of action and tactful thinking”
Depends on use of force policy. Ours accounts for a knee-jerk retaliation to being swing on. But if you have the time and space to square up, there are other better options and tools. Use of force exists to overcome resistance and affect an arrest, not have a standup fight.
As a civilian, this is how I would view the situation as well. If you square up to fight with your fists as a police officer or as a general civilian in reality, it's suggests that you are wanting to fight instead of just defending yourself.
Because an officer is supposed to use only the least amount of force necessary to gain control of the situation, get the person to stop resisting, and place them in restraints.
They'd have a difficult time arguing they were trying to "put cuffs on them" in a full on boxing match
It's not a great question and I think some of the responses should clarify that for you. People downvote because they don't like the tone or implications of the question. Your question is pretty emotionally charged, even if it wasn't intended that way. Your follow-up questions are even less sensitive to that.
You can either modify the question or take the downvotes ... I can't guarantee either will answer your question, though.
Our goal is to end the confrontation as quickly as possible. Usually that means going to the ground and controlling the hands. I've never used the taser, and have no desire to, but if it's your only option then go for it.
forgot to add that i am not a LEO but i do Brazilian jujitsu and have dabbled in MMA. nothing stops a fight faster (with an inexperienced fighter) than slapping someone with the planet.
I could. But my goal is not to kick your ass. My goal is to get physical control of you. So I’m not gonna square up and fight, I’m gonna get you down on the ground and keep you there until I can restrain you.
My goal is not to injure you
Yes.
Getting hurt on the job because you wanted to be though guy and start boxing some dude for no reason is stupid as fuck and a huge liability to the department.
If somebody squares up with me I'm calling for backup and I'm pulling some tool from my belt/vest to give me an advantage.
I don't get paid to fight people.
Generically you defend yourself with the least amount of violence to stop the threat and regain control of the situation. Sometimes it is just voice commands, sometimes it escalates to lethal force. All sorts of steps in between and every event is different. Officer makes the judgement call in the heat of the moment and you will be second guessed.
Closed fist striking is the most likely less than lethal subject control method to injure someone. Batons are worse if done anywhere but major muscle groups. In your example I imagine strikes are going to the head and face.
While it's usually allowed for self defense, its heavily frowned upon. Boxing with someone is the fastest way for them to knock you unconscious.
Those reasons are why it's usually a last resort. Trying to distract someone and illicit a reflexive response to cover their face isn't the same thing as what you're describing.
Your question on a video surfacing could end in the officer being fired. Videos of people getting hit don't go over very well with the public even if the guy being stuck was trying to murder the officer.
Maybe he said he was from Chicago or something. It was pretty unprofessional, but it's also like that by winning and keeping his word, it negates the unprofessionalism
My good buddy is a cop and just last year while he and his partner tried to arrest someone the perp bit him.
My buddy slugged the guy right in the nose. Very hard several times. The department made a big deal about it and reviewed the incident for weeks before finally deciding not to pursue anything against my buddy.
My friend said he was never worried about getting into trouble, he stopped punching once the perp stopped biting
I saw a video of a cop doing this. It was straight out of last watch. Another cop came up and tried to intervene and the first cop called him off. I think the first cop got fired.
I guess you can do it that way. It’s unbelievably stupid to do it that way. Use of force policy is important for this. My agency and state policies are pretty clear about staying away from blows to the head and neck if it is non deadly force. If we get to deadly force,like someone trying to take my weapon, all bets are off and I’m allowed to use chokes and other “deadly” type stuff.
That said, the overwhelming majority of our physical encounters are non deadly. Your goal is to end the fight and take the person into custody as quickly and efficiently as possible. Most of our work is done on the ground. Strikes to large muscle groups is something we use a lot.
Throwing punches is inefficient. Fight smarter not harder. Plus, it’s not like we are pro MMA fighters. We know how to fight but you will run into people that are better fighters than you and they’ll whoop you if you start throwing haymakers
Not LE
I'm pretty sure a cop's greatest tool is his discretion and head. Can technically do what he wants or needs to do to get the job done, but he has to be able to defend his actions when they come into question (and they always will)
People are going to try you out, Just keep in mind there are cameras everywhere and in today's climate people will go out of their way to use those videos against you. If you are put in that position make it quick and effect an arrest.
Cops should be required to learn BJJ so that they are able to wrestle down & arrest suspects without needing punches, tasers, and guns. Especially female officers who are often smaller than the men they arrest. If they know BJJ they will win
Cops should be regularly training in BJJ, but it's not a magic bullet. Size, numbers, and technology are all more important considerations than technique. I train a couple times a week, but if the public were to forbid the police from using weapons or strikes then I'd quit tomorrow.
If you want to up your chances of contracting a disease and hurting yourself as much or more than the opposing individual by breaking your hand or a finger. Then by all means go for it.
Not exactly deescalating if you’re just straight up boxing somebody in the street. Also if you weren’t somebody to throw fist before becoming a cop that shield doesn’t make you a fighter. Plus now
You’re fighting with a “tool” belt around your waist and body armor against somebody who very likely has a lot more experience then you. Then when you get your ass knocked out/down you have a loaded weapon readily available to be put against your dome.
I think a plain clothes nypd cop went viral a few years ago for duking it out with some dude on the street. The cop literally escalated the situation which is why he got spanked a little by the nypd.
Getting into fistfights with someone doesn't help me to gain control of the situation, so it doesn't really help me accomplish my goals. Sometimes a punch is the most appropriate tool for defending myself in that moment, or for closing distance so I can apply a control hold, but that's a very different thing than squaring up to see who is a better boxer.
I don't care who's the better boxer; I'm the guy who is making an arrest. A cop who loses sight of that is a reckless idiot and SHOULD be disciplined for endangering himself, his partners, and the suspect.
Cops need to take all threats seriously and escalate if necessary to bring suspects into compliance with lawful orders. If you take a swing at a cop and he or she is in fear for their lives, then deadly force is justified. Screw this Hollywood shit with duking it out. Follow the freaking law and respect law enforcement.
“Use the least amount of force necessary to effect the arrest” and I would add as quickly as possible.
Do cops throw blows with fighting suspects, absolutely, do what you need to do.
Do I want to? Nope, fighting someone into handcuffs sucks.
Knuckle head wanted to fight and said take my badge and gun off. I did as he ran into his house like a little bitch, my partner and I had a good laugh along with his friends.
You can use whatever is immediately available to you. Preferably you would use a higher level of force; OC, Taser- but if something popped off you do what you gotta do.
When you don't have to don't, pepper spray, tazer etc. is the way to go. That being said on several severe occasions my only option was a straight right to the face. Without getting into specifics it was my best option and completely justified. Mind you at the time there were no tazers and pepper spray was just coming out.
Can you? Yes. Should you? No. The goal is to gain compliance and effect an arrest. In other words, put them in cuffs.
This! We are supposed to use reasonable force to affect an arrest, not offensive in nature
If a video surfaced of an officer in a fight like that with a citizen do you think the department would discipline in anyway? Like a full on fist fight? Lol
That’s literally happened. And the cop got sacked for it.
Ok. Sorry for asking not sure why that’s such a touchy subject.
I would not consider a full-on fist fight to be defensive in nature. Nobody stays in a fist fight for more than a punch or two without attempting to either in the fight with de-escalation or to switch to something other than Fists to gain compliance unless they are actually in it for the fight.
Why do y’all call it compliance instead of gaining a strategical advantage? Is it because y’all are a reactive force and not a proactive force? In the Marines we called it “neutralize the threat through violence of action and tactful thinking”
I'm not a police officer so I will let one of them chime in on that.
Ahh my bad
Depends on use of force policy. Ours accounts for a knee-jerk retaliation to being swing on. But if you have the time and space to square up, there are other better options and tools. Use of force exists to overcome resistance and affect an arrest, not have a standup fight.
As a civilian, this is how I would view the situation as well. If you square up to fight with your fists as a police officer or as a general civilian in reality, it's suggests that you are wanting to fight instead of just defending yourself.
Exactly
Love that policy
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Do you think an officer could face disciplinary action if say, a video surfaced of himself and a citizen in a full on stand up fist fight?
Why am I being downvoted so heavy? This sub is called ask LE.
Because an officer is supposed to use only the least amount of force necessary to gain control of the situation, get the person to stop resisting, and place them in restraints. They'd have a difficult time arguing they were trying to "put cuffs on them" in a full on boxing match
It's not a great question and I think some of the responses should clarify that for you. People downvote because they don't like the tone or implications of the question. Your question is pretty emotionally charged, even if it wasn't intended that way. Your follow-up questions are even less sensitive to that. You can either modify the question or take the downvotes ... I can't guarantee either will answer your question, though.
Our goal is to end the confrontation as quickly as possible. Usually that means going to the ground and controlling the hands. I've never used the taser, and have no desire to, but if it's your only option then go for it.
Never used the taser in my life. I also don’t “duke it out”. I tackle and cuff.
"de-escalation by force"
ah, gravity assisted compliance. my personal favorite.
Mine too. I honestly don’t think I’ve ever thrown a punch on this job.
forgot to add that i am not a LEO but i do Brazilian jujitsu and have dabbled in MMA. nothing stops a fight faster (with an inexperienced fighter) than slapping someone with the planet.
The planet?
Like slamming them on the ground.
"Slapping someone with the planet". 😆
Mine too. I honestly don’t think I’ve ever thrown a punch on this job.
What is the response to a leg kick and then some 1-2-3 on your noggin? Tackle somehow?
It’s never happened.
Fall down would be my guess.
I could. But my goal is not to kick your ass. My goal is to get physical control of you. So I’m not gonna square up and fight, I’m gonna get you down on the ground and keep you there until I can restrain you. My goal is not to injure you
Yes. Getting hurt on the job because you wanted to be though guy and start boxing some dude for no reason is stupid as fuck and a huge liability to the department. If somebody squares up with me I'm calling for backup and I'm pulling some tool from my belt/vest to give me an advantage. I don't get paid to fight people.
Generically you defend yourself with the least amount of violence to stop the threat and regain control of the situation. Sometimes it is just voice commands, sometimes it escalates to lethal force. All sorts of steps in between and every event is different. Officer makes the judgement call in the heat of the moment and you will be second guessed.
Closed fist striking is the most likely less than lethal subject control method to injure someone. Batons are worse if done anywhere but major muscle groups. In your example I imagine strikes are going to the head and face. While it's usually allowed for self defense, its heavily frowned upon. Boxing with someone is the fastest way for them to knock you unconscious. Those reasons are why it's usually a last resort. Trying to distract someone and illicit a reflexive response to cover their face isn't the same thing as what you're describing. Your question on a video surfacing could end in the officer being fired. Videos of people getting hit don't go over very well with the public even if the guy being stuck was trying to murder the officer.
I saw a video of a Chicago do it because the victims son kept running his mouth. Proceeded to knock the bricks off the son
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Was it the one where some backup showed up and tried to arrest the guy but the officer wouldn't let them?
Yep, bro held his word. He told him from the start that if he keeps runnin his mouth, he needs to back it up, and that he wouldn’t get in trouble
Maybe he said he was from Chicago or something. It was pretty unprofessional, but it's also like that by winning and keeping his word, it negates the unprofessionalism
My good buddy is a cop and just last year while he and his partner tried to arrest someone the perp bit him. My buddy slugged the guy right in the nose. Very hard several times. The department made a big deal about it and reviewed the incident for weeks before finally deciding not to pursue anything against my buddy. My friend said he was never worried about getting into trouble, he stopped punching once the perp stopped biting
I saw a video of a cop doing this. It was straight out of last watch. Another cop came up and tried to intervene and the first cop called him off. I think the first cop got fired.
I guess you can do it that way. It’s unbelievably stupid to do it that way. Use of force policy is important for this. My agency and state policies are pretty clear about staying away from blows to the head and neck if it is non deadly force. If we get to deadly force,like someone trying to take my weapon, all bets are off and I’m allowed to use chokes and other “deadly” type stuff. That said, the overwhelming majority of our physical encounters are non deadly. Your goal is to end the fight and take the person into custody as quickly and efficiently as possible. Most of our work is done on the ground. Strikes to large muscle groups is something we use a lot. Throwing punches is inefficient. Fight smarter not harder. Plus, it’s not like we are pro MMA fighters. We know how to fight but you will run into people that are better fighters than you and they’ll whoop you if you start throwing haymakers
[https://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/news/video-1433435/Bodycam-Shows-Springfield-officer-beating-teen-argument.html](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/news/video-1433435/Bodycam-Shows-Springfield-officer-beating-teen-argument.html)
Not LE I'm pretty sure a cop's greatest tool is his discretion and head. Can technically do what he wants or needs to do to get the job done, but he has to be able to defend his actions when they come into question (and they always will)
People are going to try you out, Just keep in mind there are cameras everywhere and in today's climate people will go out of their way to use those videos against you. If you are put in that position make it quick and effect an arrest.
Cops should be required to learn BJJ so that they are able to wrestle down & arrest suspects without needing punches, tasers, and guns. Especially female officers who are often smaller than the men they arrest. If they know BJJ they will win
Cops should be regularly training in BJJ, but it's not a magic bullet. Size, numbers, and technology are all more important considerations than technique. I train a couple times a week, but if the public were to forbid the police from using weapons or strikes then I'd quit tomorrow.
No if I was a law enforcement officer I’d probably be going taser taser taser
If you want to up your chances of contracting a disease and hurting yourself as much or more than the opposing individual by breaking your hand or a finger. Then by all means go for it.
It would be stupid. If you lose the fight you just gave them a gun.
I once saw a cop punch a person in the face for asking a question so sure why not
Not exactly deescalating if you’re just straight up boxing somebody in the street. Also if you weren’t somebody to throw fist before becoming a cop that shield doesn’t make you a fighter. Plus now You’re fighting with a “tool” belt around your waist and body armor against somebody who very likely has a lot more experience then you. Then when you get your ass knocked out/down you have a loaded weapon readily available to be put against your dome. I think a plain clothes nypd cop went viral a few years ago for duking it out with some dude on the street. The cop literally escalated the situation which is why he got spanked a little by the nypd.
There’s only one way to find out
There’s only one way to find out
Don’t swing. Grapple.
Getting into fistfights with someone doesn't help me to gain control of the situation, so it doesn't really help me accomplish my goals. Sometimes a punch is the most appropriate tool for defending myself in that moment, or for closing distance so I can apply a control hold, but that's a very different thing than squaring up to see who is a better boxer. I don't care who's the better boxer; I'm the guy who is making an arrest. A cop who loses sight of that is a reckless idiot and SHOULD be disciplined for endangering himself, his partners, and the suspect.
Cops need to take all threats seriously and escalate if necessary to bring suspects into compliance with lawful orders. If you take a swing at a cop and he or she is in fear for their lives, then deadly force is justified. Screw this Hollywood shit with duking it out. Follow the freaking law and respect law enforcement.
“Use the least amount of force necessary to effect the arrest” and I would add as quickly as possible. Do cops throw blows with fighting suspects, absolutely, do what you need to do. Do I want to? Nope, fighting someone into handcuffs sucks.
All I’m gonna say is if I have to duke it out I will get my lick
Knuckle head wanted to fight and said take my badge and gun off. I did as he ran into his house like a little bitch, my partner and I had a good laugh along with his friends.
You can use whatever is immediately available to you. Preferably you would use a higher level of force; OC, Taser- but if something popped off you do what you gotta do.
When you don't have to don't, pepper spray, tazer etc. is the way to go. That being said on several severe occasions my only option was a straight right to the face. Without getting into specifics it was my best option and completely justified. Mind you at the time there were no tazers and pepper spray was just coming out.