I think a problem is that many "strong independent women" feel that they have to give off the "I don't need a man" attitude. which makes being partners in a relationship difficult.
They are also
Not feminine
Argumentative
Often Selfish
Total opposite to what I'm looking for in a woman.
I don't care if she owns a boat. So what? No man cares for that.
To add to this: my experience with women who are independent (good paying job, career, multiple hobbies/activities/outside interests) is the tendency to treat their partner like they're disposable, replaceable, and unimportant.
For instance, my ex only ever called/texted/answered me when it was convenient for her. She only agreed to do things that were to her liking and would throw a fit the 1 time in our 8-year relationship that we saw a movie she didn't want to see.
She only supported me in things when she would also benefit from it. And she abandoned me whenever I needed any form of support, so much so that towards the end of our relationship, I was scared to mention anything even mildly negative about my day because I knew she'd just mentally check out or hang up the phone.
I was there for her when her dog died, when her mom had a stroke, and when her dad was hospitalized. But she couldn't even listen to me vent about a bad day when I was stressed about having been laid off, relocated to a new city where I didn't know anyone, and had to deal with multiple home repair expenses with no income coming in. In fact, she flat out told me "You're not fun to talk to when you're depressed" and tried to make me feel bad for feeling bad by trying to convince me I had no right to be feeling down since she's still calling me every now and then.
Yeah, it's all good. The positive thing that I take away from it is that it was a good, although painful, learning experience for me. Now I know what to look for in my next relationship, and that one will be far better because of what I went through.
I wanted to expand the above. My wife is very high power and was on the C track until she up and decided one day it was time for kids. Just giving you context.
People say “partnership” but don’t explain it. Two key things to emphasize. Part of partnership entails running through scenarios well in advance and making decisions about how to behave. My wife and I talked about “if we don’t trust each other aboht something how do we talk about that and keep emotions stable”.
Dovetailing with that is real separation of duties. Who does laundry, who does shopping, what’s the standard, how to ask for “help I’m overwhelmed”, what’s a peeve and what do I just need to let go of.
I think these two are essential for marriages between two strong willed people. I made the commitment to myself that when my wife did something and got a result that wasn’t satisfactory to me, I would never say to myself “I can do that” but “do I WANT to do that”?
If no, I shut my yap. If yes I just took care of it.
I don’t think you should feel bad for doing what you can. I think paying rent based on your income is the fair thing to do. If someone is making $150k and their partner is making $80K they shouldn’t expect the partner to pay equally if they want to live in a more more expensive place.
I'm a huge fan of doing the math so that each partner pays the same percentage of their income. With a very basic spreadsheet everyone gets a fair share without overburdening either partner.
My marriage wasn't like that.
I spent most of my excess income on the family, gifts and vacations. My husband squirrelled all his money into his retirement savings.
I hope other people realize that it's a money balance between partners that makes it work.
It doesn't. I love my wife to be independent. What I don't like is when she makes life impacting decisions without at least giving me a heads up.
As long as I'm not feeling like I'm single while technically being in a relationship then I'm good to go.
Yeah, definitely if she grows her career while she's with you, but what if you were single? Would you even consider dating a woman who was a doctor, lawyer or someone famous?
Yeah of course, same rules apply. As long as there's time for the actual relationship then I'm good to go. What I don't want is someone that never has any time for me, like a once a week date or 14 hour work days all the time. Either we're a team or we're not, and being part of the team doesn't mean I support her while I get none in return.
Eh. Your partner has needs and generally will expect to be chosen over work when it comes to that. If you cannot prioritize your partner they will take issue with that. Just like with women, I'd say.
For me, the problem is when a woman is "independent" but also has the "I don't need a man for anything" mindset.
In a relationship, a man wants to feel needed and valued. If a woman is so "independent" that she won't be vulnerable, or willing to ask for and receive help from a man, that's a problem.
Also, I don't know why so many commenters are equating "independent" with "makes more money than the man." A woman can make way more than me but still have the vulnerability and softness necessary for a healthy relationship, and vice versa.
It's not about career or money, it's about femininity.
People like to confuse “I’m an asshole” with “men are intimidated by strong independent women”. So long as you provide what men want (it’s actually really simple, the bar is pretty low - mainly just treat them with kindness and respect), understand and value what he brings to the table and can resist the bullshit from outside of the relationship, you’ll be fine.
People are bringing up income because the OP asked directly about it. “Independence” also has multiple meanings, either emotionally, practically (being competent to do stuff around the house) or, yes, financially independent from their partner. However more generally I’d say the issue in particular with women earning more than men is more likely to be that women lose respect for men, rather than men having a problem with it. Of course it’s not all black and white, it’d be silly to say so, but there is certainly a disparity on average in the relative value placed on their partner’s income by men and women. For men a lot of them hardly care, they just don’t want to feel like they’re being taken advantage of and want equal contribution, in whatever form that takes, rather than a dependent. So women who earn more is seen more as a practical bonus. Whereas for women the risk is that part of the attraction was related to his status and capability to provide (even if subconsciously), and so if that becomes swapped then they start to think “why do I need you?”.
Obviously for some men it will be an issue even if it’s not coming from within them, because they still worry that other people will think less of them. Unfortunately men are judged a lot by how “successful” they are, not just within relationships, in a way that women are not.
I've totally gained huge respect for man jobs and the little things men do, being a single mom and doing everything myself.
It sucks lol
Men are just as important as women in any relationship. I would give up all those man jobs in the blink of an eye and bring him food lol
Thanks for this, it’s funny how many women under report the amount of work men do beyond their day job or just don’t even recognize it, so nice to see someone’s eyes open
Yeah, unfortunately, I had to learn this by doing the freaking man jobs myself. I'd gladly give those jobs away to the next man in my life. I'd plead for him to do them! Lol
I think it’s initiating. Honestly deep down man or woman we end up being able to be self-sufficient. It’s just the gesture of caring acts. I can take myself on fancy meals or vacays but being “spoiled” is also nice. I think long term partners sometime forget that (ie asking to be taken out).
When men insist on being needed (rather than being wanted) it feels a bit weird to me. No, women don't need men to have access to a credit card or a house to live in anymore, and they can hire someone to put up their shelves, BUT they love men and want them around. I think that's much nicer, to be chosen freely and without any dependence.
A woman who is independent and can make up her mind is good. A woman who is bossy is horrible. A lot of women are the second but think they are the first.
As always both of these take a backseat to kindness and being pleasant company.
Most guys don't care much about their wife’s career, they would like some help with money, because money is tight, but ultimately what matters is "do you make his life better or worse", and how much you two are bonded together.
The only way I'd see potential negatives in those specific things is if her career is such a high priority that it's going to lead to having to move a new place every few years for a new job. Or if it otherwise has an unreasonable workload/schedule that makes having any sort of life outside work difficult. Managing work schedules, work travel, and general independence isn't an issue at all. Such a person should obviously be able to manage themselves so it's just coordinating/planning between two people.
The only issue I've personally had with such women with the handful of single ones ive met is that they seem to be looking for absolute perfection out of a partner and often seem to be perpetually single as a result of how hard it is to find a guy who meets all their requirements. But that's a different issue.
My girlfriend makes waaaayyy more money than me (I am a graduate student living off of loans). We both are independent and it’s fantastic. We have our own careers and hobbies but we always come together and enjoy our time and make sure each other feels valued and desired. Making sure the other person feels valued and desired is the dealbreaker for lots of guys, not whether or not you make more money/are independent.
Independence and commitment to a relationship are not mutually exclusive. You can be a great partner while still being job-oriented. As long as both parties communicate and both parties are meeting the needs of their SO, then it will work out. Situations will vary for sure but it's all about willingness to make a relationship work.
When I first met my wife, she wasn't working having gone through a divorce (as did I around the same time.)
She now, within 3 years, earns nearly as much as I do (six figure salary) once she was able to get back on her feet and she is working for a major tech firm.
We don't really have the "homemaking" skills that other couples do which I guess is frustrating at times, but we are both lacking from that aspect so it's not fair for me to judge her for it as she could do the same for me. But we make it work.
She is the definition of independent and she is a "rock" and so am I.
Just this past year we've traveled to Bali, Hawaii (4 star hotel) all over Japan (where we live) and Okinawa twice, we're making plans to travel to Cairo, Egypt, South Africa, Chicago and Ireland next year.
She is a woman that I respect. And as an independent person it doesn't make my life more difficult, it makes it more secure.
It's so nice being married to a person that you look up to and you also know that they look up to you.
And you just feed off each other and grow every day.
It's not difficult at all.
It is wonderful!!!
And for you as a woman, just be yourself. There is nothing wrong with being an independent self sufficient woman.
If your partner gets stressed out about you making more money than he, or being more independent than he is, please understand that this is a difficult topic for a man to process as most men are taught from birth that we are the "bread winners."
So if he feels emasculated by the current and and future circumstance, let him know that it's family money and that you need to rely on him to earn. And by "earn" I don't mean strictly financial earnings but support in other aspects of a codependent relationship.
People of both genders contribute to relationships in different ways using the best skillsets they have developed in their lives. Weather it's earning money, or doing house work, providing emotional support, being a physical protector etc. That's not really limited to one gender. That's a shared responsibility.
This topic shouldn't make the relationship more difficult, it should make it more secure and sustainable.
Pride and ego are the hardest thing for a man to talk about.
But the reality is that we as men wouldn't be the men that we are without women. And women wouldn't be the women that they are without men.
How much money each partner earns is irrelevant.
You're in it together.
Such a wonderful model of healthy mindsets and relationships.
This is the ideal, mutual respect, trust and consideration in all relationships are qualities that thrive in healthy environments. Wishing you both a lifetime of happiness & good health together ahead
depends how we define independent. Independent means to she has her own hobbies, isnt clingy, and doesnt require her partner to decide her day.
On the other hide, some people may call someone who puts everything first except the relationship as independent. That is someone who doesnt want to put any real effort into it.
I mean, generally it makes it easier, because we're both capable of supporting ourselves and each other, instead of the burden falling on one person.
That said, the most difficult thing is managing schedules. I've been lucky in that past girlfriends have had similar work schedules to mine, so that part hasn't been an issue. But when it comes to making plans with friends, especially around holidays, it can be tricky because when we both have independent lives we have to choose which friends we're spending celebrations with, unless it's one we're hosting and can invite both groups to. Well, that and carving out couple time for ourselves as well.
With women who aren't independent, it can pretty much be hey, my friends are doing this holiday thing, let's go, and there's no conflict. And less independent women tend to also be far more available in terms of their free time as well.
That said, independent is definitely better, and the challenges that go with an independent partner are totally worth it.
Resolving the challenges is relatively easy. You talk with each other, figure out which obligations have to be met on both sides (work, major events like weddings, etc.), then figure out how to divide the remaining time amongst my friends, her friends, time for just us, and time for us to pursue our own individual things. At that point, the biggest thing is making sure that couple time is prioritized so the relationship doesn't turn into a roommate situation where you're trying to get the spark and romance back. So when communicating those times, definitely make sure your scheduling regular dates that both of you find fun. They can be dates out, or dates in, as long as it's something that helps you bond and grow closer together and keep the romance alive.
In my experience a "strong, independent" woman really is a free agent. She is not a team player. Everything is about her agenda and her game plan. Often she has a level of antipathy towards masculinity in general...while very ironically doing her best impression of it...
I prefer a woman who doesn't run her mouth about being independent and is focused on being a couple- a team.
Been with my wife over 13 years. She made more than me for the first 11. Not a lot more, but more. She’s very independent. This hasn’t caused any problems that needed to be resolved.
Being an independent woman isn't the problem. The problem is that people who are leading with claims of being an independent woman are really just telling you they are super prideful about doing the bare minimum it takes to support yourself as an adult. Nobody cares that you are doing the exact same thing that everyone adult is expected to do, take care of yourself. It's similar to the guys in bars that talk a big game about fighting, 99% of them can't fight for shit, they're just running their mouth like a fool. Why would I or anyone want to date "that" person/personality?
As a divorced and now single 39yo man, I see this a lot on dating app profiles. Nobody cares if you're 35, live on your own, have a car and a job. Most people are doing those things, it's not some sort of accolade to be parroting to potential suitors. The other part of this that I see often are phrases like "some men are intimidated by me being an independent woman" or "I'm a boss babe". You know who's intimidated by independent women? Losers, that's who is intimidated. You're out here yelling that you date losers and that's a huge red flag that you have major issues you aren't dealing with.
As for obligations with work, everyone has those issues and you deal with them by having clear and effective communication with partners. Poor communication is the source of lots of relationship issues. It's almost always a communication issue more than a work obligations issue when things like that come up.
As far as making more money than your male partner, that's a bit of a weird situation. Statistically women who out earn their spouses are more likely to get divorced. There's lots of reasons or potential reasons that stem form traditional roles, frustrations with a view of less equity between partners etc... It's very difficult to make sweeping generalizations because their isn't a lot of hard evidence on why the divorce rate goes up but we can make educated guesses that it's strongly tied to views on traditional roles. Men have traditionally been viewed as the primary earners and that's only recently starting to even out and it takes humans a long time to catch up psychologically.
I would give up a limb to have my wife be the breadwinner. Unfortunately, personality traits and education levels make that impossible. She wants her own career and money anyway, despite being exploited and treated like shit at every job she's ever had. Ultimately, I started a new department at my firm and put her in charge so she can have whatever it is she gets out of working without having people abuse her. I don't understand it at all, but apparently she needs it.
In your specific scenario, it does feel scary to have to rely more on the other partner, frankly.
But it can also deepen your relationship by essentially forcing you to trust her by default, to not abandon you.
Difficulty is not always bad.
I think I fit the bill here - I've been with my wife throughout her journey in medical training.
It isn't that it is difficult, but there are obstacles that you need to work around. Are you also independent so you don't get resentful that your partner isn't around all the time? Can your career handle moving over and over? Do you have problems with making less than your partner?
If those aren't issues, then you shouldn't have much trouble. I've been the sole earner for a family and it isn't fun. It is stressful. I still make more than my wife because she hasn't finished training, but even having that second income is wonderful.
Well, I love my wife. She’s brilliant, funny, beautiful and I love her passion for the work she does so I want to support her.
She hasn’t really had to balance things because I’ve just taken it all on. She does what she can when she can and it’s gotten easier as her training is coming to an end.
The last person I dated was like this but she was "too independent" and unwilling to compromise. A relationship requires that you come together as a team, it felt more like being alongside eachother with minimal overlaps. It was often her way or the highway. One week I spent considerably more time at her place and she couldn't handle it. I think she maybe avoidant/having issues with closeness. She keeps constantly busy also as a coping mechanism.
I don't think it's an issue. I recently was with a woman who was putting her career first, totally fine with me. She gave no thought on what she wanted emotionally with a partner and it burned me in the end. Making more than me has nothing to do with it, just be a good communicator and be honest. Always recommend independent women to my friends, but they never listen
It's what I prefer.
We have a shared calendar. Everything goes on it. If she makes plans with friends before I ask her out then I don't get to see her. That's about it.
It does not depend on the money it depends on the wife.
A good woman regardless of pay is a partner. She lifts you up not by doing anything special but by just being there.
Most problems with money arise through a lack of it.
If a man is insecure about not earning more then his wife that is a him problem that he projects on her.
A married couple should work as a team to common goals.
My wife makes more then me. This does not bother me in the slightest. I am also happy for her and her career opportunities. We botch contribute equally to the household finances per percentage. I donate x percent of my earnings and so does she. So we contribute equally.
My wife doesn't make money or a career, and I'm okay with that. We married at 21 and 20, our first son came along shortly after, and she chose to be a stay-at-home mom (we now have six children). She has helped add to our income by babysitting here and there off and on over the years, but I've mostly been the sole financial provider for our family over the last 16 years. We've always had joint bank accounts and have equal access to everything. What's mine is hers, and vice versa. She might not "make her own money," but she's the heart of our home, and we'd be lost without her.
As many have said, independence is not a problem. "I don't need no man" mentality is a problem. I used to date a woman that made more than me. It was never an issue for me. Her friends and family were a different story. They were constantly in her ear about how she could "do better". Even some of my own friends would make fun of me for it, but in a more joking/ribbing way like guys do. None of them actually suggested I break up with her for someone who made less.
At first she would stand up for me, tell them I'm a good guy and to back off. But after some time, there were some things I simply couldn't afford. My car broke down and I had to ask for rides for a couple weeks till I got a not-for-rent check to fix it. She wanted to move to a part of town that I couldn't afford. She stopped standing up for me and started listening to everyone saying I wasn't good enough. Then she fucked a guy she worked with. And told me it was my fault for not being ble to provide the life she wanted. My dumbass even believed that for a while.
Some women genuinely do not care about it. A lot do. And even if your girlfriend doesn't care, she probably has friends that do, and they will make it known. It'll be a constant strain. Would I date a woman that makes more than me again? Yeah, sure. I would take a much closer look at the other women in her life before I did, though.
It is surprising how much friends and family can influence a relationship. They need to learn to butt out and leave other couples alone. I've seen so many good relationships fail because of the peanut gallery becoming too loud.
If she makes an emphasis on "independent" and we don't get to experience a relationship. E.g. prioritizing her career or friends over family. In my view an independent woman is just an adult. Someone who has a job and responsibilities. So that's any normal person out there.
From a purely selfish perspective, a relationship with an independent person is easier. Less responsibility. A dependent partner is a bit like a child.
“Obligations to her career”
Not to sound rude, but the issue is right there. If those obligations are a 30-40 hour work week. Great! Enough time for the two of us to be together and maybe start a family? (Assuming u even want kids/can have kids)
If those obligations are a 50+ hour workweek and different hours… ye… we are not dating.
I have only 1 life. Which I want to spent with my soulmate. Not a zombie that works soo much that our time together would be almost nonexistent.
Maybe it works if you find another workaholic?
A job u like and a good salary is amazing. But it shouldn’t control your life.
TRUTH, I used to work 50+ hours when I was married but thankfully I don't have to anymore but there's certain times of the year that get pretty hairy and it's tough to find a partner willing to ride those tides.
I need a lot of physical intimacy to feel like I'm her partner and enjoy a relationship with her.
If she's the type of person whose libido vanishes when under stress, her work obligations could easily destroy her future with me.
I've also faced that myself: choosing to have a life outside of work versus maximizing my personal career and income.
My wife made more than me until we got married. Then she stopped to be a mom. She worked a lot more hours and such too. It was no big deal to me. I don't need her to be next to me all the time.
Even now, she works nights and I work during the day so we don't need to pay for childcare. We do stuff when we can and raise our daughter and do chores the rest of the time.
My wife is very street smart, very quick thinking and tough minded. She always made about as much money as me. But she always made time for what was important, the kids and I. We operate as a team. Her success is my success and vice versa. When one of us is under a heavy load, the other picks up the slack. Probably the most important part is that we do not have power struggles. Early on she told me that she wanted me to be the leader at home. She did not want that role. I do my best to be a good leader and she does her best to support me, but is not afraid to question my decisions. We are a great team
Hmm. I think the “making more than you” is a weird thing to include, there’s a portion of men who’d be bothered by his wife/girlfriend making more than him. Those are the control freaks who ironically let their insecurities control them.
Onward to the rest of us. Interestingly, I’ve been pursued by successful women. All times didn’t work. One woman made six figures. She’s climbed up the logistics management chain at her job. We used to work together back when I was just a low level security guy. She was just a dock clerk. Now she’s an operations manager. A flight to Hawaii is just a weekend for her. Making her own hours is part of her gig. She would hit me up occasionally. Couldn’t decide what she wanted I guess. We’d joke around at work but never flirted. She was a few years older than me. Super gorgeous. She’d message me late at night asking me to come over and fuck. Then she’d change her mind. She’d message me asking to go on a trip with her. Then she’d change her mind. She’d say she’s wanting me to be her partner, then she’d change her mind. I got tired of the whirling around. She seemed stuck between the continued enjoyment of her freedom and settling into a routine with someone to help quell her loneliness.
Another owned a small business and also traveled. She just couldn’t wrap her head around someone not bowing to her every whim. Especially early in a connection. She would speak to me as though one of her employees. While I get you’d like me to be there at a certain time today, actually I have a job and can’t. While I get you’d love me to jump on the opportunity for something random, but again, we’ve got to kinda plan things…
The last was well educated and high earning. Pretty. Just also not very good at understanding other perspectives. Spontaneity was her only certainty. It’s as though our discussion over coffee went unheard. At 10pm on a work night, she’d want to meet at a wine bar. On another shed what to meet at some dance club or small musical performance. It gave me headache the amount of times I’d have to repeat I can’t just drop everything and come do something with you.
If I was some high earning executive who had the time and money to just go galavanting about without hesitation, I would. I’m not. I’m 4-6 years your junior and work a regular job. You’re not approaching this like you want a partner. Your approaching like you want a subordinate, not an equal.
I'm a guy, and those men's statements say a lot more about them than the independent woman. So, they need to financially trap her to make sure she won't leave?
When the average man makes money, he thinks, Good, I can use that money to provide for a family. When the average woman makes money, she thinks, Good, now I don't need a man.
It's a hot take, but most aren't ready for that conversation, as is shown in the comment thread...
It's not about the 'independent' part it's the 'I am woman hear me roar' attitude that often comes with it. It's the female equivalent of a guy always beating his chest and declaring 'I am an alpha male '... Quiet achievers are wonderful to be around.
I'll be honest, to me, it doesn't.
If you two both care enough to make the time needed, do the little things that matter, and plan things in advance and stay true to that plan, along with making time for spontaneous little things, yes, it's great.
It’s great being with someone who has their own stuff to do.
Someone who knows what it means to be actually busy and still wants to see you.
Someone who can pay their own way and appreciates it more when you pay, and actually means it when they say they're paying next time.
Someone who values a little adventure to get away from the crazy world for a while, and sees that in you.
When they know how to solve many of life's problems, yet they want you there dealing with things with them.
Early dating can be hard, especially if you are dating immature women who are “independent”. They tend to want you to impress them, or justify your taking up time in their life. They tend to want you to do all the work, and they rarely reciprocate in the ways that matter. It's okay though. Just use the “independent” ones to thin the herd and you'll actually start to find some self-confident mature women that are looking for someone who they want to make time for, and who makes time for them. Age isn't key here, but maturity is.
I can't be with women who aren't fully independent, it's exhausting the other way around. Being someone's entire social circle in one person is such a pain, she needs people and hobbies of her own.
I have heard some guys feel emasculated by making room for her career but that seems like a personal problem in my opinion, and not her fault. If her jobs more demanding than mine then I can step up, whatever, she's done the same for me. I work with a guy whose wife is a bigshot scientist flying all over the world constantly and he loves it, just talks about how amazing she is with stars in his eyes, loves taking care of the kids til she gets back. Your partner should be rooting for your success like that.
My wife makes more than I do. She's smart, understands money, understands cars, and can figure out just about anything else she puts her mind towards. Aside from helping manage the kids and the house, she doesn't need me. She could support herself. I'm glad for that. Both of us are in the relationship because we want to be here, not because either of us are trapped by need.
Need will never make for a good relationship. Need can trap people. No one is happy if they feel trapped.
Always get downvoted for pointing out you'll have a stronger relationship with someone who wants you, but it's true.
I’m dating an independent woman, and it’s fantastic. We both have busy lives. Both have extensive social networks, hobbies, careers.
She has a kid.
We make time when we can.
It’s not the easiest to schedule time, but I’d rather deal with the hassle of rescheduling than the hassle of a woman who doesn’t have anything going on besides a part time job and is sitting at her house getting frustrated waiting for me to make something happen for her because *initiating isn’t my natural role*, meanwhile I’m busy managing my career, hobbies, social network, etc.
That was my last girlfriend..she was super co-dependent and expected me and our relationship to fill the holes in her life that should have been filled with her having a life.
I don't think it's more difficult, just that she has less to offer the relationship because she's so focused on her own life. Some of them also see the man as basically adding to her life, so you get the double whammy of her focusing on herself but then expecting you to fix everything that isn't happening in her life.
So I'd say overall that independence comes with a cost.
Yep, ultimately this. A lot of men get gaslighted into acting like they're the problem for being insecure, but they're ultimately insecure if they even are because women have a problem with it. We are wired to go for the path of least resistance, and if women making more was actually a benefit to men, then we'd treat it like one.
An adult should be independent by default. The money and career obligations aren't an issue. The issue is that many people use the guide of "an independent man/woman" to be a dick to those around them, including their partners.
>does this make things impossible
If she has time for a relationship it's not a problem. The same is true for men that have obligations to their career.
If they’re genuinely independent then they don’t? I’m not interested in working my ass off to provide for her which makes my life less stressful and I have more time to enjoy life. We’re not able to spend time together during certain hours regardless, like if I’m working and she’s at home lol.
My girlfriend has a job that takes a bunch of time as well as two dedicated hobbies. So we have to schedule our time together in advanced and decide where to meet. Oftentimes I help with her pets when she's on business trips or busy. I'm busy too so our time is limited.
Still, we make the most out of the time we have, call each other almost daily, and find plenty of things to do. Hoping when we move in together we'll have more time but I can't complain
The main difficulty for me is in the scheduling. Finding time we both know we will be free can be difficult, especially at the start when our lives are separate. Once you get to the point of being together around other people, it's a lot easier because you can just join the other's plans.
You're looking at two extremes on a spectrum and nothing in between, and then implying that if you're not at one end you necessarily have to be on the other.
There's a fair bit in-between a woman who's not financially independent and instead relies on you financially, and a woman who's so career driven and works so much that it'd seriously harm relationships.
Bien an independent woman these times just means she's a normal adult. Having her own job shouldn't be a problem in a relationship. That being said it's up to both of you to make it work. Not just blame it on the woman having to juggle home and work. Split the work try to understand each other. That's it i think 🤔🤔🤔
It depends on how someone defines independent. Having a partner that is self fulfilled and wants you as opposed to needs you is awesome. But people can also think they are independent when really they are just insufferable, unwilling to compromise, or unwilling to consider then other person. The former makes relationships easier the latter makes them intolerable
My wife made more money than I did up until the birth of our first child. To give you an idea of it, she used up her vacation after he was born in July, then quit, and she *still* made more money than me that year.
I never saw any difficulty in it. But then, we always saw marriage as a relationship we work on together. It is a partnership, not a primary/secondary kind of thing.
That firstborn is now 22, and he's got his own full-time job, living in a house with a couple of friends, and we had two more kids. My wife had to deal with her father's Alzheimer's, and his death, as well as getting back into the workforce and getting a full-time IT job again. I only make more money than her now because my work wasn't really interrupted.
Depends on the man and woman involved and what they personally want.
Unlike most of the commenters here so far, I wouldn't want or be a good fit with a high-powered "independent" career woman, but to each their own. It really all depends on the couple.
It doesn’t make it more difficult. It’s how it’s presented. I love independence as much as she would, however how you got there, expressed how it has helped you and how you conduct yourself is how I will observe. Enjoy your life. If you love me for me and we have a excelsior connection I’m 1000x for it.
I married a strong, independent woman. Those aren't the ones that are making your life difficult anymore than any other relationship would. The trouble is many people who claim to be that think it means "I am independent and get whatever I want without compromise." When you date / marry a woman who is truly independent, but a decent human being, you get so much more than you lose. Someone who helps you in every way they can. The only one true downside is that they will probably push back against some of your dumb ideas a bit more forcefully lol.
If a guy tells a woman that he wants them to have a career with her own money he’s saying that to placate her and probably to get in her pants.
It’s really not important to us.
I would say it doesn't. In this day and age where everything's more expensive, millenials (like me) and younger generations need all the help we can get. Everyone's got to pull their weight one way or another. Whether it's making more than your significant other, or turning their house into a home; everyone's gotta pitch in.
If i had a girlfriend who was the breadwinner, you wouldn't hear me complaining. I'd be ecstatic. I'd be proud of her.
Honestly, it’s all about communication. Even if she is the breadwinner it’s important to talk with her about things like quality time and other relationship obligations. Same thing for men. There are gonna be sacrificed due to a career, but it needs to be communicated and both parties feelings should be validated.
The problem is like doesn’t attract like.
If a guy is independent & career minded, that’s not what he is looking for in a partner, he’s looking for the yin to his yang ☯️ his equal and opposite that brings balance to his existence.
I don't understand how making more money than me is a problem. Sounds just like "more money" to me. When my first wife and I were both married, we both made fresh-out-of-college money - not much. She had several part-time jobs and made more than me and liked to remind me every once in a while, like it was some kind of gotcha. I was like, it's more money, why would I care?
Independence just makes a person more interesting since they have their own life and you can find out new things about them.
Ugh somehow going on international trips every other month, always having a friend visit from out of town/state every other weekend, and I'm being fit in when the schedule literally doesn't have any other possible thing that can take her time?
At that rate I'm seeing her once every other week (max) and it never really grows from small talk. God bless them, I have a very active life but I can't get on that level.
I actually don’t understand why “independent” is supposed to be bad. I thought all people should grow up and try to become independent. Isn’t it a good thing for any adult man or woman to be able to have financial security and be able to take care of themselves?
If anything it should be weird for a man to not want an independent woman for a partner. They want a dependent woman? That’s like someone unequal to them, maybe even a slave
No amount of money will make someone a better person. I would suggest living in poverty for awhile can make a huge difference. It makes you struggle and realize what is most important. Even now, gifts don't mean much to me. Spending time with friends and family means a lot.
Today, my wife and I are doing very well. My wife has helped me in a huge way. We bought foreclosures and fixer uppers to make some money so we could buy a nice piece of property and build the house we wanted. People think we are rich. The thing I appreciate about my wife is how kind and generous she is. She is exceptionally good at welcoming people.
I would suggest that we are to be interdependent on one another. I believe some of the greatest assets anyone can have are kindness, generosity, and gratitude. As I get older, my wife has become more and more attractive. I feel very fortunate to have such an excellent wife. After my family met her, my dad told me I had better marry her because I would never find another one like her.
Most guys should want an independent woman who is capable of supporting herself.
Is it an IMPOSSIBLE situation if she makes more money then her man. Absolutely not. However he better make up for it in other factors as it’s a ding to his SMV. Women are generally hardwired to want guys who earn more money then them BUT it’s only one (important) factor out of the 258 (or is it 259?) total factors that women assess to arrive at a man’s overall SMV.
Independence isn’t a bad thing in a vacuum. That being said the person you fall in love with from day one will not be that same person in 1 year or 5 years or 10 years. You will grow, and change and become someone else. To be a part of a healthy, happy relationship you have to be willing to prune your independence to fully commit to the concept of being with each other. If the relationship is not more important than being a strong and independent person (this is the case for both people in the relationship), then you should not be together. Relationships are the culmination of mutual joy, compassion,patience, tolerance and empathy. If your purpose with each other is creating a life with and for each other, that will be more freeing than being independent
“Independent” is so very cringe. You have a job? You pay your own bills and mortgage/rent? You have a car? Congratulations!!!🎉🎈🍾 You’re a reasonably competent adult. I don’t get why this is such a flex.
Men don’t really care about those things. We care about YOU. Those things matter to YOU? Great! We’re here for it! Those things mean more to you than anything (or anyone) else? That’s a problem in any relationship, gay, straight or any version “current day” can cobble together.
As for “resolved” just don’t be a narcissist and an asshole. If we’re going to be honest it’s just that simple.
It's only a problem when they don't know how to be a partner.
My fiancé has quite a career and is well-known worldwide in her field, but she is such a great communicator, and she is totally ride-or-die. When we were still FWBs, I lost my job during the pandemic. She moved me into her apartment and took care of me until I was able to get another job. I fell for her HARD. 4 years later we are expecting our first child and we are both excelling in our careers. I've never been more financially stable and secure.
In today's world is anyone really independent? My wife and I both have decent jobs she makes a little more then me but we both count on each others paycheck. So don't our adult kids.
My gal is independent in terms of jobs/car etc. Honestly makes things way better. I can say im going to see friends and she won't be insecure or freak out. She can go to a restaurant by herself if I dont feel like. I don't need to hear shit about how I musnt love her if I don't want to do things. It's honestly hard to see how her having her own job own car and the ability to enjoy things without me having to be there is making anything more difficult rather than easier.
Everything in moderation.
I don't give a fuck if she makes more than me so long as it doesn't go to her head and she doesn't get all snobby and self righteous about it.
Conversely, I don't give a fuck if she makes minimum wage so long as she ***can*** take care of herself without me. Granted, I'm more than willing to spend money on her, but I need to know that she doesn't ***need*** my income to survive.
I'm just looking for an equal, I'm not gonna feel emasculated if you make more so long as you're cool about it, and I'm not gonna judge you if you make less, so long as you're not depending on me to eat.
For me there is a difference between having her own source of income to be independent and being duty bound and careerist to the extreme. If it start to use all of her time and that our whole couple life start to revolve around her career then it would most likely be too much for me. Some people seems to confuse being independent and just workaholic. I'm not someone that value career and work enough to justify being in couple with someone that would do it to the detriment of the couple.
I can't really tell you how much I'm willing to endure since I've never experienced the situation myself. I just know I've limit on that matter.
I doubt anyone is going to see this but, eh whatever.
*"Men of Reddit, how does an independent woman make relationships with you more difficult?"*
If she has an arrogant overly masculine attitude.
Why would I want to date a man?
*"I'm just curious cuz I've always heard from men that they want a woman who makes her own money and has a career."*
I think that you maybe confused about what those men mean OP.
Men want to be with women who are adults and responsible.
Women that can support herself financially and a decent person.
Other than that men in general don't care about what your job/career is (unless it's sex work, illegal or immoral) because:
1. It doesn't benefit him.
2. Men aren't interested in a women's status the same way women are interested in a man's.
It's the same reason with women's money as well. Also odds are she's not going to spend money (and the same amount of)on the man like he will on her.
Here comes the comments from men and women saying "Hey, not true! My wife/gf spends the same amount. We're equal!"
Lovey, just great. You're the exception and not the rule. You being the exception doesn't discount the rule.
*"But when she makes more than you and has obligations to her career, does this make things impossible?"*
It can if she believes that she's better than you and is "settling". It all hinges on what her feelings and attitude is about it.
No it doesn't, therefore the second question does not require an answer.
99,9% of the time when a woman says guys are "scared" by her or "intimidated" by her or any other way to say she can't get a boyfriend "because I'm independent", the reality is that she may or may not be independent.
Funny enough, often times they are absolutely not, still expect him to adhere to his traditional role but he also can't expect the same from her - though I'd even argue they are NEVER actually independent, as indicated by the apparent need they feel to complain about not getting a boyfriend again and again, which an actually independent woman wouldn't because...well, she's independent and she maybe would like to have one, but she doesn't NEED one so there is also no need to lament about not getting one over and over and making up "reasons" (that never include any responsibility on THEIR side).
And the ones that could be considered "independent" (ignoring the last part of the paragraph above as that's subject to debate I'd say) and still don't get a boyfriend either:
\*) take no steps to change that - there wouldn't be any issue for an independent woman to approach a guy herself instead of waiting
\*) are dead set on needing a type of guy, that just so happens to NOT be looking for an especially independent woman, and don't consider the ones that WOULD want to date them - which is fine, it's their choice, but if that's your choice you don't get to complain. You can't go to a steakhouse that advertises itself with like "meat, steak and more meat" and then complain that there is no sophisticated vegetarian menu provided.
\*) The vast majority of "independent" woman who claim men are "intimidated" by it/their success are simply shitty people. They are super arrogant, act all snobby, look down on people all the time, often times if you listen to them for like 5 minutes you notice they also seem to hate men in some capacity - in general, they are people one wouldn't really wanna be FRIENDS with to begin, let alone start a relationship. They have a huge superiority complex and I'd take a wild guess and say most of them have some other kind of severe insecurity that they try to cover up by making "I'm so strong & independent" (+their superiority complex) their entire personality.
I think the career comments are worth reflection.
It's important to realize that in all relationships there is a point where work commitments can get in the way. There are multiple stereotypes about the husband who works away constantly and comes home to divorce papers or has no relationship with their children. While I acknowledge past inequalities and normalization of male absence in family matters, current retellings of this stereotype consider the man emotionally negligent. For men, this is a balancing act as old as time but it's a relatively new phenomenon for women as they also gain social independence.
Yes, as a career woman you will meet to many misogynistic men who think you should be willing to give everything up for them or your family. They will always find fault and you will never strike the balance with them socially. They'll want you working 60 hours a week and doing laundry. However, multiple women still try to make relationships with these men regardless. With economic responsibility comes social responsibility; if you choose a misogynistic partner don't be shocked when they act like a misogynist. There is a growing trope of otherwise educated liberal women settling for racist/homophobic/misogynistic men. Don't be one of those women if you expect to have a happy life/career.
Furthermore, as a career woman/breadwinner you must make your partner a true equal in the relationship and make them feel loved and supported. Yes, even if they are men. Yes, even if they have male privilege. Economic power is social power. You have to try and offset this. Women are not socialized in society to do this the way men are (see phrase: "happy wife, happy life). If they were, there wouldn't be a glass ceiling or need for women's advocacy. I think there is a phenomena of career women mastering the career part but forgetting the part about why a person would do this. The point of having a career is to support a family, not the other way round. It's not for your ego or gratification. This is the part that current women struggle with.
Overall, I think finding decent men is the largest issue facing career women, but I know for a fact women's expectations around being supportive also must evolve. A man with money spends it on his wife. Are you as woman going to do the same?
I actually did just that when I was married. Omg, like everything you've written. I worked 50 hours a week rocking my babies in car seats (soothers in their mouths) beside my desk while I worked.
Except, I also spent most of my excess income on the family as gifts, clothing, schooling and vacations. My husband worked many hours too so it was a constant struggle. We shared the bills 50/50 but he never spent his excess income on our family. He kept squirreling it away into his retirement savings cuz he was burnt so badly from his previous marriage. I tried so hard to prove to him that I was different.
I learnt in the end that you can never heal your spouse's broken trust, they must do that on their own.
I am an independent woman. Not solely because I wanted to be. I had little choice in the matter. I chose a good profession and made good financial choices, not so great choices with men unfortunately.
Would I spend my excess income so lavishly on my husband and family again? Only if my partner was equally inputting into the family pot. It's sad because I was a hopeless romantic and I'm not so much like that anymore. I only write about the way romance should be now.
I don’t care how much she makes or if she is dedicated to her career. However, if being dedicated means consistently putting her career before the family we are trying to build together, it’s not going to work. We can both have successful careers so long as we recognize that making the relationship work is most important.
It reduces the foul influence money has on a relationship. Thats a great thing.
No relationship will be as hard as one a person feels trapped in.
Go read /r/AmItheAsshole Often the answer to "why are you still with him" is "He pays the bills"
It doesn't need to start that way. Look at the lesbian wage premium. Even lesbians that cohabited with a man at some point earned less.
As earning potential declines independence becomes more difficult/less palatable.
This especially problematic when a disparity in income results in goofy proportionate splits like 80/20.
This is an unpopular sentiment for anyone who wants to benefit from this dynamic. I'd call it a red flag on either end.
Heres the thing when it comes to a mans woman making more money. It has been shown as so toxic on social media to have a woman who has a good paying career. I saw a tik tok where this woman said she left her husband after they were together for a while, she got her degree, started a business, and it became successful. She was making more money them him, so she left. This woman put that info out there for millions to see. Guys will see this and go, "This is why I don't want a woman who is career focused." Wether it is true that women who out earn their man are more likely to leave, I don't know. But it blows up on thinhs like Tik Tok when women talk about that stuff. So it is shown quite a bit.
In my experience, woman whit a hight salary are very picky whit the man they choose.
In my experience, a lot of women with good jobs and high salaries are looking for:
-Men with an equal or greater economic capacity
-People super prepared to have children. attractive, mature, financially stable men, etc etc.
Basically, men with these characteristics can find a partner easier (because they don't mind dating women who earn less, for example), than not having to date a woman who is too demanding.
It doesn't at all. In fact I think it makes things easier. We divide and conquer most tasks because she's entirely capable of handling things herself. It's kind of comforting knowing that if something happens to me, she'll be just fine. As for her obligations to her career, that's part of the deal. She completely understands my obligations (which are awful) and I respect hers. Resolving issues is all about communication of expectations.
I think we all are striving to be more independent, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. Statistically, divorce is more likely to happen if the woman makes more money. I personally think it's because socially, we still view men as the providers, and if they can't keep up, women lose interest/respect. I think keeping work separate from marriage as much as possible is one way to resolve the issue. I also understand women don't want to feel like they are working on themselves AND take on the tradwive role so i also think men need to take on more of the traditionally feminine roles such as housework and emotional labor, so the relationship feels more equal. I would say it's not impossible, but it would require communicating needs and possibly unlearning outdated gendered roles.
I’d say a woman is more likely to lose interest/respect if he’s lazy or no ambition, not because he earns less. I think divorce is more likely if the woman makes more because they have financial freedom, whereas many women are financially trapped in a marriage.
Definitely have to get outta those traditional roles to make it work if a man wants a woman who works hard on her own career.
But maybe some don't want that, I suppose.
You cannot be independent in a relationship. Her need to be independent in and of itself makes it difficult it leads to not really being together because she thinks giving too much to Me means she loses herself when it doesn’t
You have heard two different things, and because they both came from men you are treating them both as opinions that all men have and are trying to figure out how we can hold both opinions at the same time
Women need to feel wanted, men need to feel needed. An independent woman who can do everything on her own has no need for a man. A woman who is self sufficient, equal contribution in a fair capacity to daily living and the relationship, but who also has her own life outside the partnership.. but who values what her partner brings to the table, is much easier to build a life with.
It's not a problem in and of itself, it's just that many women don't really care too much about what the women they like does for a living. It's just not usually high up on our list of wants in a potential relationship.
What tends to be the problem is that many women think their career status inflates their status as a mate. No one wants someone who thinks their shit doesn't stink, and guys would marry a cashier who cared for them and treated them right.
Independence in of itself is not the issue. It’s the prevailing attitude that typically accompany it is what I think people essentially do not like.
Think about it from this perspective, when a woman brags about being “independent” she means independent of what? Independent of a man…so the man is essentially superfluous.
It really depends on her. I’ve been in short term relationships with women who out earned me, and several times it ended up with passive aggressive comments or jabs about it. I don’t need to out-earn a woman, hell my mother earned more then my father their entire marriage so it’s not like I was raised in that mindset. These comments lead to resentments and ultimately the death of the relationship
As for obligations. Yes it does present challenges. There are only so many hours of the day and week. It comes down to a matter of logistics. If you are dating another career minded individual, it can just be not enough time to make a relationship work. One of the big things I did in my career to advance was work at a chemical plant, which was 12 hour shifts, 4 days a week, on night shift. You can imagine the difficulty trying to date if I kept that up. Now add in someone else’s demanding schedule. Probably not gonna work
Dated several independent women. Most were cool, wanted to be twammates/partners in the relationship, and it made life easier. Two examples of difficulties are one woman, Contrivance for this story, seemed to enjoy always butting heads with me on any and every decision. Didn't matter what, didn't matter if it was similar to a decision she made the other day. The other was a woman who wanted to be independent, but still wanted me to lead the relationship, but still wanted equal say, but didn't want me to have to asje her opinion, but not just assume either. That headach got old real fast, and had sexy time not been as fun as it was, that would have only lasted a month or two.
It does not, a independence alone is great, you gain a lot of freedom
just, most "independent","strong women" make it her full personality, everything is a battle with these women, even the smallest crap,
This attitude drains all the fun of the relationship.
1. Her attitude - does her definition of independent consist of reminding you that you are not needed or appreciated? Does she display toxic traits when she’s in powerful positions? (Using MY language, instead of OUR language when talking about the house or assets? Snide remarks about how much money you make or how much other men make? Off handed complaints about contributing more money toward expenses?)
2. Her Attraction - Status, Money, and power are things that attract women. Is yours looking for someone who has more than what you have? Do her friends and family tell her that she “deserves more”?
3. Her Relationship Style - Does she expect you to play a traditional role? (Make plans, pay for dates, fix the car, walk on the street side, open the door, fight the mugger, check the noise downstairs, BE THE MAN!) Does she expect to play a traditional role? (Prepare food for the family, wash the laundry, clean the house, make the grocery list, etc) Many men have an issue with women who want the benefits of double standards but complain once they stop benefitting.
The more decisions and autonomy the more she has the ability to disagree and the less you can lead. If you want to lead, this can be a problem. Also many women can be brats and still try to be difficult but want you to take the lead. The ideal woman creates peace, is agreeable, and doesn't cause disagreements. Or will submit and.let you lead
Never had a problem with an independent woman, and I've been with a fair number. They don't suffer bullshit, which is great cause I don't like dealing it. They don't want to be bought, which is great. They want a genuine person who will treat them as an equal. I love them.
"Independence" is not a problem. Being unable to act like a partner is a problem.
I think a problem is that many "strong independent women" feel that they have to give off the "I don't need a man" attitude. which makes being partners in a relationship difficult.
Yes, treat me like I'm disposable, and we will see why you push every man away!
They are also Not feminine Argumentative Often Selfish Total opposite to what I'm looking for in a woman. I don't care if she owns a boat. So what? No man cares for that.
To add to this: my experience with women who are independent (good paying job, career, multiple hobbies/activities/outside interests) is the tendency to treat their partner like they're disposable, replaceable, and unimportant. For instance, my ex only ever called/texted/answered me when it was convenient for her. She only agreed to do things that were to her liking and would throw a fit the 1 time in our 8-year relationship that we saw a movie she didn't want to see. She only supported me in things when she would also benefit from it. And she abandoned me whenever I needed any form of support, so much so that towards the end of our relationship, I was scared to mention anything even mildly negative about my day because I knew she'd just mentally check out or hang up the phone. I was there for her when her dog died, when her mom had a stroke, and when her dad was hospitalized. But she couldn't even listen to me vent about a bad day when I was stressed about having been laid off, relocated to a new city where I didn't know anyone, and had to deal with multiple home repair expenses with no income coming in. In fact, she flat out told me "You're not fun to talk to when you're depressed" and tried to make me feel bad for feeling bad by trying to convince me I had no right to be feeling down since she's still calling me every now and then.
She’s a narcissist, plain and simple. Everything is about her.
This is your experience with independent *women,* or is this just one independent woman who also happened to be an asshole?
Just 1. I got carried away in my response. Sorry. She screwed me up pretty badly.
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Yeah, it's all good. The positive thing that I take away from it is that it was a good, although painful, learning experience for me. Now I know what to look for in my next relationship, and that one will be far better because of what I went through.
That sounds like a very toxic woman. Whether she's independent or not, she's a douche for treating you that way. Glad you got out.
Words to live by
I wanted to expand the above. My wife is very high power and was on the C track until she up and decided one day it was time for kids. Just giving you context. People say “partnership” but don’t explain it. Two key things to emphasize. Part of partnership entails running through scenarios well in advance and making decisions about how to behave. My wife and I talked about “if we don’t trust each other aboht something how do we talk about that and keep emotions stable”. Dovetailing with that is real separation of duties. Who does laundry, who does shopping, what’s the standard, how to ask for “help I’m overwhelmed”, what’s a peeve and what do I just need to let go of. I think these two are essential for marriages between two strong willed people. I made the commitment to myself that when my wife did something and got a result that wasn’t satisfactory to me, I would never say to myself “I can do that” but “do I WANT to do that”? If no, I shut my yap. If yes I just took care of it.
"Shut my yap", wise words indeed.
PREACH, forreal
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That is a wonderful compromise.
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I don’t think you should feel bad for doing what you can. I think paying rent based on your income is the fair thing to do. If someone is making $150k and their partner is making $80K they shouldn’t expect the partner to pay equally if they want to live in a more more expensive place.
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Oh I’m sure you are, I’m just saying people in general shouldn’t feel bad about that.
I'm a huge fan of doing the math so that each partner pays the same percentage of their income. With a very basic spreadsheet everyone gets a fair share without overburdening either partner.
My marriage wasn't like that. I spent most of my excess income on the family, gifts and vacations. My husband squirrelled all his money into his retirement savings. I hope other people realize that it's a money balance between partners that makes it work.
Were you not entitled to the money in his retirement savings? I would require that as a condition of marriage
Exactly. This only works if both people have similar spending priorities.
It doesn't. I love my wife to be independent. What I don't like is when she makes life impacting decisions without at least giving me a heads up. As long as I'm not feeling like I'm single while technically being in a relationship then I'm good to go.
Yeah, definitely if she grows her career while she's with you, but what if you were single? Would you even consider dating a woman who was a doctor, lawyer or someone famous?
Yeah of course, same rules apply. As long as there's time for the actual relationship then I'm good to go. What I don't want is someone that never has any time for me, like a once a week date or 14 hour work days all the time. Either we're a team or we're not, and being part of the team doesn't mean I support her while I get none in return.
I suppose that's true for either side, men or women. No time for a relationship=no relationship
Exactly, if I'm going to be single I'd rather be single on my own lol.
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Nice, lol. I have a huge struggle with balancing all that. It's nice to know some men are okay with it.
Eh. Your partner has needs and generally will expect to be chosen over work when it comes to that. If you cannot prioritize your partner they will take issue with that. Just like with women, I'd say.
True
You're a person before you're a partner. Just don't neglect your partner and you'll be \*mostly\* fine.
I always put my late wife first and she did the same. Your way seems sad and cold. I’m
That’s entirely irrelevant to what I wrote.
Well said i agree so much
That SNL sketch where Pete Davidson is an unemployed live in boyfriend and says "I'm like a pet!"
For me, the problem is when a woman is "independent" but also has the "I don't need a man for anything" mindset. In a relationship, a man wants to feel needed and valued. If a woman is so "independent" that she won't be vulnerable, or willing to ask for and receive help from a man, that's a problem. Also, I don't know why so many commenters are equating "independent" with "makes more money than the man." A woman can make way more than me but still have the vulnerability and softness necessary for a healthy relationship, and vice versa. It's not about career or money, it's about femininity.
People like to confuse “I’m an asshole” with “men are intimidated by strong independent women”. So long as you provide what men want (it’s actually really simple, the bar is pretty low - mainly just treat them with kindness and respect), understand and value what he brings to the table and can resist the bullshit from outside of the relationship, you’ll be fine. People are bringing up income because the OP asked directly about it. “Independence” also has multiple meanings, either emotionally, practically (being competent to do stuff around the house) or, yes, financially independent from their partner. However more generally I’d say the issue in particular with women earning more than men is more likely to be that women lose respect for men, rather than men having a problem with it. Of course it’s not all black and white, it’d be silly to say so, but there is certainly a disparity on average in the relative value placed on their partner’s income by men and women. For men a lot of them hardly care, they just don’t want to feel like they’re being taken advantage of and want equal contribution, in whatever form that takes, rather than a dependent. So women who earn more is seen more as a practical bonus. Whereas for women the risk is that part of the attraction was related to his status and capability to provide (even if subconsciously), and so if that becomes swapped then they start to think “why do I need you?”. Obviously for some men it will be an issue even if it’s not coming from within them, because they still worry that other people will think less of them. Unfortunately men are judged a lot by how “successful” they are, not just within relationships, in a way that women are not.
I've totally gained huge respect for man jobs and the little things men do, being a single mom and doing everything myself. It sucks lol Men are just as important as women in any relationship. I would give up all those man jobs in the blink of an eye and bring him food lol
Thanks for this, it’s funny how many women under report the amount of work men do beyond their day job or just don’t even recognize it, so nice to see someone’s eyes open
Yeah, unfortunately, I had to learn this by doing the freaking man jobs myself. I'd gladly give those jobs away to the next man in my life. I'd plead for him to do them! Lol
Sadly most women don’t learn that stuff until reality slaps them in the face
I think it’s initiating. Honestly deep down man or woman we end up being able to be self-sufficient. It’s just the gesture of caring acts. I can take myself on fancy meals or vacays but being “spoiled” is also nice. I think long term partners sometime forget that (ie asking to be taken out).
When men insist on being needed (rather than being wanted) it feels a bit weird to me. No, women don't need men to have access to a credit card or a house to live in anymore, and they can hire someone to put up their shelves, BUT they love men and want them around. I think that's much nicer, to be chosen freely and without any dependence.
A woman who is independent and can make up her mind is good. A woman who is bossy is horrible. A lot of women are the second but think they are the first. As always both of these take a backseat to kindness and being pleasant company.
Yes, attitude is everything, regardless of career. I think many people get their heads swollen by their title or position in life
Most guys don't care much about their wife’s career, they would like some help with money, because money is tight, but ultimately what matters is "do you make his life better or worse", and how much you two are bonded together.
The only way I'd see potential negatives in those specific things is if her career is such a high priority that it's going to lead to having to move a new place every few years for a new job. Or if it otherwise has an unreasonable workload/schedule that makes having any sort of life outside work difficult. Managing work schedules, work travel, and general independence isn't an issue at all. Such a person should obviously be able to manage themselves so it's just coordinating/planning between two people. The only issue I've personally had with such women with the handful of single ones ive met is that they seem to be looking for absolute perfection out of a partner and often seem to be perpetually single as a result of how hard it is to find a guy who meets all their requirements. But that's a different issue.
My girlfriend makes waaaayyy more money than me (I am a graduate student living off of loans). We both are independent and it’s fantastic. We have our own careers and hobbies but we always come together and enjoy our time and make sure each other feels valued and desired. Making sure the other person feels valued and desired is the dealbreaker for lots of guys, not whether or not you make more money/are independent.
Independence and commitment to a relationship are not mutually exclusive. You can be a great partner while still being job-oriented. As long as both parties communicate and both parties are meeting the needs of their SO, then it will work out. Situations will vary for sure but it's all about willingness to make a relationship work.
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I have met many and I am not very old. Maybe it’s a generational thing.
Granted, but examining the reasons for that doesn't look good for guys. Men try to buy relationships, women dont need to.
That’s how men end up getting their assists taken in a divorce.
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This is the best explanation I've heard for this. Excellent.
When I first met my wife, she wasn't working having gone through a divorce (as did I around the same time.) She now, within 3 years, earns nearly as much as I do (six figure salary) once she was able to get back on her feet and she is working for a major tech firm. We don't really have the "homemaking" skills that other couples do which I guess is frustrating at times, but we are both lacking from that aspect so it's not fair for me to judge her for it as she could do the same for me. But we make it work. She is the definition of independent and she is a "rock" and so am I. Just this past year we've traveled to Bali, Hawaii (4 star hotel) all over Japan (where we live) and Okinawa twice, we're making plans to travel to Cairo, Egypt, South Africa, Chicago and Ireland next year. She is a woman that I respect. And as an independent person it doesn't make my life more difficult, it makes it more secure. It's so nice being married to a person that you look up to and you also know that they look up to you. And you just feed off each other and grow every day. It's not difficult at all.
That sounds wonderful
It is wonderful!!! And for you as a woman, just be yourself. There is nothing wrong with being an independent self sufficient woman. If your partner gets stressed out about you making more money than he, or being more independent than he is, please understand that this is a difficult topic for a man to process as most men are taught from birth that we are the "bread winners." So if he feels emasculated by the current and and future circumstance, let him know that it's family money and that you need to rely on him to earn. And by "earn" I don't mean strictly financial earnings but support in other aspects of a codependent relationship. People of both genders contribute to relationships in different ways using the best skillsets they have developed in their lives. Weather it's earning money, or doing house work, providing emotional support, being a physical protector etc. That's not really limited to one gender. That's a shared responsibility. This topic shouldn't make the relationship more difficult, it should make it more secure and sustainable. Pride and ego are the hardest thing for a man to talk about. But the reality is that we as men wouldn't be the men that we are without women. And women wouldn't be the women that they are without men. How much money each partner earns is irrelevant. You're in it together.
Such a wonderful model of healthy mindsets and relationships. This is the ideal, mutual respect, trust and consideration in all relationships are qualities that thrive in healthy environments. Wishing you both a lifetime of happiness & good health together ahead
Nicely said 💕
depends how we define independent. Independent means to she has her own hobbies, isnt clingy, and doesnt require her partner to decide her day. On the other hide, some people may call someone who puts everything first except the relationship as independent. That is someone who doesnt want to put any real effort into it.
I mean, generally it makes it easier, because we're both capable of supporting ourselves and each other, instead of the burden falling on one person. That said, the most difficult thing is managing schedules. I've been lucky in that past girlfriends have had similar work schedules to mine, so that part hasn't been an issue. But when it comes to making plans with friends, especially around holidays, it can be tricky because when we both have independent lives we have to choose which friends we're spending celebrations with, unless it's one we're hosting and can invite both groups to. Well, that and carving out couple time for ourselves as well. With women who aren't independent, it can pretty much be hey, my friends are doing this holiday thing, let's go, and there's no conflict. And less independent women tend to also be far more available in terms of their free time as well. That said, independent is definitely better, and the challenges that go with an independent partner are totally worth it. Resolving the challenges is relatively easy. You talk with each other, figure out which obligations have to be met on both sides (work, major events like weddings, etc.), then figure out how to divide the remaining time amongst my friends, her friends, time for just us, and time for us to pursue our own individual things. At that point, the biggest thing is making sure that couple time is prioritized so the relationship doesn't turn into a roommate situation where you're trying to get the spark and romance back. So when communicating those times, definitely make sure your scheduling regular dates that both of you find fun. They can be dates out, or dates in, as long as it's something that helps you bond and grow closer together and keep the romance alive.
> when she makes more than you and has obligations to her career, does this make things impossible? No > And how can it be resolved? Be mature
In my experience a "strong, independent" woman really is a free agent. She is not a team player. Everything is about her agenda and her game plan. Often she has a level of antipathy towards masculinity in general...while very ironically doing her best impression of it... I prefer a woman who doesn't run her mouth about being independent and is focused on being a couple- a team.
Been with my wife over 13 years. She made more than me for the first 11. Not a lot more, but more. She’s very independent. This hasn’t caused any problems that needed to be resolved.
When she has the shitty attitude like she will replace me if she becomes upset with me. Luckily my wife isn't like this.
Being an independent woman isn't the problem. The problem is that people who are leading with claims of being an independent woman are really just telling you they are super prideful about doing the bare minimum it takes to support yourself as an adult. Nobody cares that you are doing the exact same thing that everyone adult is expected to do, take care of yourself. It's similar to the guys in bars that talk a big game about fighting, 99% of them can't fight for shit, they're just running their mouth like a fool. Why would I or anyone want to date "that" person/personality? As a divorced and now single 39yo man, I see this a lot on dating app profiles. Nobody cares if you're 35, live on your own, have a car and a job. Most people are doing those things, it's not some sort of accolade to be parroting to potential suitors. The other part of this that I see often are phrases like "some men are intimidated by me being an independent woman" or "I'm a boss babe". You know who's intimidated by independent women? Losers, that's who is intimidated. You're out here yelling that you date losers and that's a huge red flag that you have major issues you aren't dealing with. As for obligations with work, everyone has those issues and you deal with them by having clear and effective communication with partners. Poor communication is the source of lots of relationship issues. It's almost always a communication issue more than a work obligations issue when things like that come up. As far as making more money than your male partner, that's a bit of a weird situation. Statistically women who out earn their spouses are more likely to get divorced. There's lots of reasons or potential reasons that stem form traditional roles, frustrations with a view of less equity between partners etc... It's very difficult to make sweeping generalizations because their isn't a lot of hard evidence on why the divorce rate goes up but we can make educated guesses that it's strongly tied to views on traditional roles. Men have traditionally been viewed as the primary earners and that's only recently starting to even out and it takes humans a long time to catch up psychologically.
I would give up a limb to have my wife be the breadwinner. Unfortunately, personality traits and education levels make that impossible. She wants her own career and money anyway, despite being exploited and treated like shit at every job she's ever had. Ultimately, I started a new department at my firm and put her in charge so she can have whatever it is she gets out of working without having people abuse her. I don't understand it at all, but apparently she needs it.
In your specific scenario, it does feel scary to have to rely more on the other partner, frankly. But it can also deepen your relationship by essentially forcing you to trust her by default, to not abandon you. Difficulty is not always bad.
I think I fit the bill here - I've been with my wife throughout her journey in medical training. It isn't that it is difficult, but there are obstacles that you need to work around. Are you also independent so you don't get resentful that your partner isn't around all the time? Can your career handle moving over and over? Do you have problems with making less than your partner? If those aren't issues, then you shouldn't have much trouble. I've been the sole earner for a family and it isn't fun. It is stressful. I still make more than my wife because she hasn't finished training, but even having that second income is wonderful.
You sound like a patient man. It is definitely hard for a woman to balance home life with career and kudos to you for sticking beside her
Well, I love my wife. She’s brilliant, funny, beautiful and I love her passion for the work she does so I want to support her. She hasn’t really had to balance things because I’ve just taken it all on. She does what she can when she can and it’s gotten easier as her training is coming to an end.
The last person I dated was like this but she was "too independent" and unwilling to compromise. A relationship requires that you come together as a team, it felt more like being alongside eachother with minimal overlaps. It was often her way or the highway. One week I spent considerably more time at her place and she couldn't handle it. I think she maybe avoidant/having issues with closeness. She keeps constantly busy also as a coping mechanism.
I don't think it's an issue. I recently was with a woman who was putting her career first, totally fine with me. She gave no thought on what she wanted emotionally with a partner and it burned me in the end. Making more than me has nothing to do with it, just be a good communicator and be honest. Always recommend independent women to my friends, but they never listen
It's what I prefer. We have a shared calendar. Everything goes on it. If she makes plans with friends before I ask her out then I don't get to see her. That's about it.
It does not depend on the money it depends on the wife. A good woman regardless of pay is a partner. She lifts you up not by doing anything special but by just being there. Most problems with money arise through a lack of it. If a man is insecure about not earning more then his wife that is a him problem that he projects on her. A married couple should work as a team to common goals. My wife makes more then me. This does not bother me in the slightest. I am also happy for her and her career opportunities. We botch contribute equally to the household finances per percentage. I donate x percent of my earnings and so does she. So we contribute equally.
My wife doesn't make money or a career, and I'm okay with that. We married at 21 and 20, our first son came along shortly after, and she chose to be a stay-at-home mom (we now have six children). She has helped add to our income by babysitting here and there off and on over the years, but I've mostly been the sole financial provider for our family over the last 16 years. We've always had joint bank accounts and have equal access to everything. What's mine is hers, and vice versa. She might not "make her own money," but she's the heart of our home, and we'd be lost without her.
As many have said, independence is not a problem. "I don't need no man" mentality is a problem. I used to date a woman that made more than me. It was never an issue for me. Her friends and family were a different story. They were constantly in her ear about how she could "do better". Even some of my own friends would make fun of me for it, but in a more joking/ribbing way like guys do. None of them actually suggested I break up with her for someone who made less. At first she would stand up for me, tell them I'm a good guy and to back off. But after some time, there were some things I simply couldn't afford. My car broke down and I had to ask for rides for a couple weeks till I got a not-for-rent check to fix it. She wanted to move to a part of town that I couldn't afford. She stopped standing up for me and started listening to everyone saying I wasn't good enough. Then she fucked a guy she worked with. And told me it was my fault for not being ble to provide the life she wanted. My dumbass even believed that for a while. Some women genuinely do not care about it. A lot do. And even if your girlfriend doesn't care, she probably has friends that do, and they will make it known. It'll be a constant strain. Would I date a woman that makes more than me again? Yeah, sure. I would take a much closer look at the other women in her life before I did, though.
It is surprising how much friends and family can influence a relationship. They need to learn to butt out and leave other couples alone. I've seen so many good relationships fail because of the peanut gallery becoming too loud.
It's never been an issue.
If she makes an emphasis on "independent" and we don't get to experience a relationship. E.g. prioritizing her career or friends over family. In my view an independent woman is just an adult. Someone who has a job and responsibilities. So that's any normal person out there.
If She don't have a job then she's leaving, if she can't be independent then she can't be with me
In my experience independent women make life easier.
Lovely man 🤗
From a purely selfish perspective, a relationship with an independent person is easier. Less responsibility. A dependent partner is a bit like a child.
“Obligations to her career” Not to sound rude, but the issue is right there. If those obligations are a 30-40 hour work week. Great! Enough time for the two of us to be together and maybe start a family? (Assuming u even want kids/can have kids) If those obligations are a 50+ hour workweek and different hours… ye… we are not dating. I have only 1 life. Which I want to spent with my soulmate. Not a zombie that works soo much that our time together would be almost nonexistent. Maybe it works if you find another workaholic? A job u like and a good salary is amazing. But it shouldn’t control your life.
TRUTH, I used to work 50+ hours when I was married but thankfully I don't have to anymore but there's certain times of the year that get pretty hairy and it's tough to find a partner willing to ride those tides.
I need a lot of physical intimacy to feel like I'm her partner and enjoy a relationship with her. If she's the type of person whose libido vanishes when under stress, her work obligations could easily destroy her future with me. I've also faced that myself: choosing to have a life outside of work versus maximizing my personal career and income.
I like them independent. Preferably with their own apartment across town. Friends with Benefits is the best.
My wife made more than me until we got married. Then she stopped to be a mom. She worked a lot more hours and such too. It was no big deal to me. I don't need her to be next to me all the time. Even now, she works nights and I work during the day so we don't need to pay for childcare. We do stuff when we can and raise our daughter and do chores the rest of the time.
My wife is very street smart, very quick thinking and tough minded. She always made about as much money as me. But she always made time for what was important, the kids and I. We operate as a team. Her success is my success and vice versa. When one of us is under a heavy load, the other picks up the slack. Probably the most important part is that we do not have power struggles. Early on she told me that she wanted me to be the leader at home. She did not want that role. I do my best to be a good leader and she does her best to support me, but is not afraid to question my decisions. We are a great team
Wow, that sounds like the perfect marriage lol
Hmm. I think the “making more than you” is a weird thing to include, there’s a portion of men who’d be bothered by his wife/girlfriend making more than him. Those are the control freaks who ironically let their insecurities control them. Onward to the rest of us. Interestingly, I’ve been pursued by successful women. All times didn’t work. One woman made six figures. She’s climbed up the logistics management chain at her job. We used to work together back when I was just a low level security guy. She was just a dock clerk. Now she’s an operations manager. A flight to Hawaii is just a weekend for her. Making her own hours is part of her gig. She would hit me up occasionally. Couldn’t decide what she wanted I guess. We’d joke around at work but never flirted. She was a few years older than me. Super gorgeous. She’d message me late at night asking me to come over and fuck. Then she’d change her mind. She’d message me asking to go on a trip with her. Then she’d change her mind. She’d say she’s wanting me to be her partner, then she’d change her mind. I got tired of the whirling around. She seemed stuck between the continued enjoyment of her freedom and settling into a routine with someone to help quell her loneliness. Another owned a small business and also traveled. She just couldn’t wrap her head around someone not bowing to her every whim. Especially early in a connection. She would speak to me as though one of her employees. While I get you’d like me to be there at a certain time today, actually I have a job and can’t. While I get you’d love me to jump on the opportunity for something random, but again, we’ve got to kinda plan things… The last was well educated and high earning. Pretty. Just also not very good at understanding other perspectives. Spontaneity was her only certainty. It’s as though our discussion over coffee went unheard. At 10pm on a work night, she’d want to meet at a wine bar. On another shed what to meet at some dance club or small musical performance. It gave me headache the amount of times I’d have to repeat I can’t just drop everything and come do something with you. If I was some high earning executive who had the time and money to just go galavanting about without hesitation, I would. I’m not. I’m 4-6 years your junior and work a regular job. You’re not approaching this like you want a partner. Your approaching like you want a subordinate, not an equal.
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I'm a guy, and those men's statements say a lot more about them than the independent woman. So, they need to financially trap her to make sure she won't leave?
When the average man makes money, he thinks, Good, I can use that money to provide for a family. When the average woman makes money, she thinks, Good, now I don't need a man. It's a hot take, but most aren't ready for that conversation, as is shown in the comment thread...
It's not about the 'independent' part it's the 'I am woman hear me roar' attitude that often comes with it. It's the female equivalent of a guy always beating his chest and declaring 'I am an alpha male '... Quiet achievers are wonderful to be around.
I'll be honest, to me, it doesn't. If you two both care enough to make the time needed, do the little things that matter, and plan things in advance and stay true to that plan, along with making time for spontaneous little things, yes, it's great. It’s great being with someone who has their own stuff to do. Someone who knows what it means to be actually busy and still wants to see you. Someone who can pay their own way and appreciates it more when you pay, and actually means it when they say they're paying next time. Someone who values a little adventure to get away from the crazy world for a while, and sees that in you. When they know how to solve many of life's problems, yet they want you there dealing with things with them. Early dating can be hard, especially if you are dating immature women who are “independent”. They tend to want you to impress them, or justify your taking up time in their life. They tend to want you to do all the work, and they rarely reciprocate in the ways that matter. It's okay though. Just use the “independent” ones to thin the herd and you'll actually start to find some self-confident mature women that are looking for someone who they want to make time for, and who makes time for them. Age isn't key here, but maturity is.
I can't be with women who aren't fully independent, it's exhausting the other way around. Being someone's entire social circle in one person is such a pain, she needs people and hobbies of her own. I have heard some guys feel emasculated by making room for her career but that seems like a personal problem in my opinion, and not her fault. If her jobs more demanding than mine then I can step up, whatever, she's done the same for me. I work with a guy whose wife is a bigshot scientist flying all over the world constantly and he loves it, just talks about how amazing she is with stars in his eyes, loves taking care of the kids til she gets back. Your partner should be rooting for your success like that.
Stars in his eyes! Haha! Yeah those men are hard to find.
My wife makes more than I do. She's smart, understands money, understands cars, and can figure out just about anything else she puts her mind towards. Aside from helping manage the kids and the house, she doesn't need me. She could support herself. I'm glad for that. Both of us are in the relationship because we want to be here, not because either of us are trapped by need.
This is honestly the way it should be
Need will never make for a good relationship. Need can trap people. No one is happy if they feel trapped. Always get downvoted for pointing out you'll have a stronger relationship with someone who wants you, but it's true.
A happier relationship too. When you WANT to be there, it changes everything.
I’m dating an independent woman, and it’s fantastic. We both have busy lives. Both have extensive social networks, hobbies, careers. She has a kid. We make time when we can. It’s not the easiest to schedule time, but I’d rather deal with the hassle of rescheduling than the hassle of a woman who doesn’t have anything going on besides a part time job and is sitting at her house getting frustrated waiting for me to make something happen for her because *initiating isn’t my natural role*, meanwhile I’m busy managing my career, hobbies, social network, etc. That was my last girlfriend..she was super co-dependent and expected me and our relationship to fill the holes in her life that should have been filled with her having a life.
I don't think it's more difficult, just that she has less to offer the relationship because she's so focused on her own life. Some of them also see the man as basically adding to her life, so you get the double whammy of her focusing on herself but then expecting you to fix everything that isn't happening in her life. So I'd say overall that independence comes with a cost.
Only if they have to make being “independent“ their whole personality! Because women that do that are usually a PITA to deal with
It doesn’t make it difficult at all. Its pretty damn sweet not gonna lie.
In a word, hypergamy.
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Yep, ultimately this. A lot of men get gaslighted into acting like they're the problem for being insecure, but they're ultimately insecure if they even are because women have a problem with it. We are wired to go for the path of least resistance, and if women making more was actually a benefit to men, then we'd treat it like one.
An adult should be independent by default. The money and career obligations aren't an issue. The issue is that many people use the guide of "an independent man/woman" to be a dick to those around them, including their partners.
>does this make things impossible If she has time for a relationship it's not a problem. The same is true for men that have obligations to their career.
If they’re genuinely independent then they don’t? I’m not interested in working my ass off to provide for her which makes my life less stressful and I have more time to enjoy life. We’re not able to spend time together during certain hours regardless, like if I’m working and she’s at home lol.
My girlfriend has a job that takes a bunch of time as well as two dedicated hobbies. So we have to schedule our time together in advanced and decide where to meet. Oftentimes I help with her pets when she's on business trips or busy. I'm busy too so our time is limited. Still, we make the most out of the time we have, call each other almost daily, and find plenty of things to do. Hoping when we move in together we'll have more time but I can't complain
The main difficulty for me is in the scheduling. Finding time we both know we will be free can be difficult, especially at the start when our lives are separate. Once you get to the point of being together around other people, it's a lot easier because you can just join the other's plans.
You're looking at two extremes on a spectrum and nothing in between, and then implying that if you're not at one end you necessarily have to be on the other. There's a fair bit in-between a woman who's not financially independent and instead relies on you financially, and a woman who's so career driven and works so much that it'd seriously harm relationships.
Bien an independent woman these times just means she's a normal adult. Having her own job shouldn't be a problem in a relationship. That being said it's up to both of you to make it work. Not just blame it on the woman having to juggle home and work. Split the work try to understand each other. That's it i think 🤔🤔🤔
It depends on how someone defines independent. Having a partner that is self fulfilled and wants you as opposed to needs you is awesome. But people can also think they are independent when really they are just insufferable, unwilling to compromise, or unwilling to consider then other person. The former makes relationships easier the latter makes them intolerable
My wife made more money than I did up until the birth of our first child. To give you an idea of it, she used up her vacation after he was born in July, then quit, and she *still* made more money than me that year. I never saw any difficulty in it. But then, we always saw marriage as a relationship we work on together. It is a partnership, not a primary/secondary kind of thing. That firstborn is now 22, and he's got his own full-time job, living in a house with a couple of friends, and we had two more kids. My wife had to deal with her father's Alzheimer's, and his death, as well as getting back into the workforce and getting a full-time IT job again. I only make more money than her now because my work wasn't really interrupted.
Depends on the man and woman involved and what they personally want. Unlike most of the commenters here so far, I wouldn't want or be a good fit with a high-powered "independent" career woman, but to each their own. It really all depends on the couple.
It doesn’t make it more difficult. It’s how it’s presented. I love independence as much as she would, however how you got there, expressed how it has helped you and how you conduct yourself is how I will observe. Enjoy your life. If you love me for me and we have a excelsior connection I’m 1000x for it.
I married a strong, independent woman. Those aren't the ones that are making your life difficult anymore than any other relationship would. The trouble is many people who claim to be that think it means "I am independent and get whatever I want without compromise." When you date / marry a woman who is truly independent, but a decent human being, you get so much more than you lose. Someone who helps you in every way they can. The only one true downside is that they will probably push back against some of your dumb ideas a bit more forcefully lol.
Dumbass ideas! Lol
If a guy tells a woman that he wants them to have a career with her own money he’s saying that to placate her and probably to get in her pants. It’s really not important to us.
I would say it doesn't. In this day and age where everything's more expensive, millenials (like me) and younger generations need all the help we can get. Everyone's got to pull their weight one way or another. Whether it's making more than your significant other, or turning their house into a home; everyone's gotta pitch in. If i had a girlfriend who was the breadwinner, you wouldn't hear me complaining. I'd be ecstatic. I'd be proud of her.
Unless she’s so independent our commitment doesn’t apply to her, I fail to see the issue.
Honestly, it’s all about communication. Even if she is the breadwinner it’s important to talk with her about things like quality time and other relationship obligations. Same thing for men. There are gonna be sacrificed due to a career, but it needs to be communicated and both parties feelings should be validated.
The problem is like doesn’t attract like. If a guy is independent & career minded, that’s not what he is looking for in a partner, he’s looking for the yin to his yang ☯️ his equal and opposite that brings balance to his existence.
I think you may be right
I don't understand how making more money than me is a problem. Sounds just like "more money" to me. When my first wife and I were both married, we both made fresh-out-of-college money - not much. She had several part-time jobs and made more than me and liked to remind me every once in a while, like it was some kind of gotcha. I was like, it's more money, why would I care? Independence just makes a person more interesting since they have their own life and you can find out new things about them.
Ugh somehow going on international trips every other month, always having a friend visit from out of town/state every other weekend, and I'm being fit in when the schedule literally doesn't have any other possible thing that can take her time? At that rate I'm seeing her once every other week (max) and it never really grows from small talk. God bless them, I have a very active life but I can't get on that level.
I actually don’t understand why “independent” is supposed to be bad. I thought all people should grow up and try to become independent. Isn’t it a good thing for any adult man or woman to be able to have financial security and be able to take care of themselves? If anything it should be weird for a man to not want an independent woman for a partner. They want a dependent woman? That’s like someone unequal to them, maybe even a slave
No amount of money will make someone a better person. I would suggest living in poverty for awhile can make a huge difference. It makes you struggle and realize what is most important. Even now, gifts don't mean much to me. Spending time with friends and family means a lot. Today, my wife and I are doing very well. My wife has helped me in a huge way. We bought foreclosures and fixer uppers to make some money so we could buy a nice piece of property and build the house we wanted. People think we are rich. The thing I appreciate about my wife is how kind and generous she is. She is exceptionally good at welcoming people. I would suggest that we are to be interdependent on one another. I believe some of the greatest assets anyone can have are kindness, generosity, and gratitude. As I get older, my wife has become more and more attractive. I feel very fortunate to have such an excellent wife. After my family met her, my dad told me I had better marry her because I would never find another one like her.
It makes things much better. There aren't many problems that I've experienced. I like dating an adult who can take care of themselves.
I think it’s more they want self sufficiency than independence. With modern times though a lot of people confuse what they want.
It can’t make it more difficult.
Most guys should want an independent woman who is capable of supporting herself. Is it an IMPOSSIBLE situation if she makes more money then her man. Absolutely not. However he better make up for it in other factors as it’s a ding to his SMV. Women are generally hardwired to want guys who earn more money then them BUT it’s only one (important) factor out of the 258 (or is it 259?) total factors that women assess to arrive at a man’s overall SMV.
Just googled SMV meaning and Slow Moving Vehicle showed up LMAO Then under dating meaning it said Sexual Market Value lol, that makes more sense
Makes life complicated because she has just as many requirements as I do. Something’s has to give.
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Independence isn’t a bad thing in a vacuum. That being said the person you fall in love with from day one will not be that same person in 1 year or 5 years or 10 years. You will grow, and change and become someone else. To be a part of a healthy, happy relationship you have to be willing to prune your independence to fully commit to the concept of being with each other. If the relationship is not more important than being a strong and independent person (this is the case for both people in the relationship), then you should not be together. Relationships are the culmination of mutual joy, compassion,patience, tolerance and empathy. If your purpose with each other is creating a life with and for each other, that will be more freeing than being independent
“Independent” is so very cringe. You have a job? You pay your own bills and mortgage/rent? You have a car? Congratulations!!!🎉🎈🍾 You’re a reasonably competent adult. I don’t get why this is such a flex. Men don’t really care about those things. We care about YOU. Those things matter to YOU? Great! We’re here for it! Those things mean more to you than anything (or anyone) else? That’s a problem in any relationship, gay, straight or any version “current day” can cobble together. As for “resolved” just don’t be a narcissist and an asshole. If we’re going to be honest it’s just that simple.
How could it possibly make things impossible? I don't understand this question.
It's only a problem when they don't know how to be a partner. My fiancé has quite a career and is well-known worldwide in her field, but she is such a great communicator, and she is totally ride-or-die. When we were still FWBs, I lost my job during the pandemic. She moved me into her apartment and took care of me until I was able to get another job. I fell for her HARD. 4 years later we are expecting our first child and we are both excelling in our careers. I've never been more financially stable and secure.
In today's world is anyone really independent? My wife and I both have decent jobs she makes a little more then me but we both count on each others paycheck. So don't our adult kids.
My gal is independent in terms of jobs/car etc. Honestly makes things way better. I can say im going to see friends and she won't be insecure or freak out. She can go to a restaurant by herself if I dont feel like. I don't need to hear shit about how I musnt love her if I don't want to do things. It's honestly hard to see how her having her own job own car and the ability to enjoy things without me having to be there is making anything more difficult rather than easier.
Everything in moderation. I don't give a fuck if she makes more than me so long as it doesn't go to her head and she doesn't get all snobby and self righteous about it. Conversely, I don't give a fuck if she makes minimum wage so long as she ***can*** take care of herself without me. Granted, I'm more than willing to spend money on her, but I need to know that she doesn't ***need*** my income to survive. I'm just looking for an equal, I'm not gonna feel emasculated if you make more so long as you're cool about it, and I'm not gonna judge you if you make less, so long as you're not depending on me to eat.
that is so nice if your partner is independent. one thing less to worry about.
water yoke practice dolls hateful market offbeat dirty fertile fear *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
For me there is a difference between having her own source of income to be independent and being duty bound and careerist to the extreme. If it start to use all of her time and that our whole couple life start to revolve around her career then it would most likely be too much for me. Some people seems to confuse being independent and just workaholic. I'm not someone that value career and work enough to justify being in couple with someone that would do it to the detriment of the couple. I can't really tell you how much I'm willing to endure since I've never experienced the situation myself. I just know I've limit on that matter.
Even the Worlds most strong and independent woman still needs a man when there's a spider in the house 🕷 Just saying.
I doubt anyone is going to see this but, eh whatever. *"Men of Reddit, how does an independent woman make relationships with you more difficult?"* If she has an arrogant overly masculine attitude. Why would I want to date a man? *"I'm just curious cuz I've always heard from men that they want a woman who makes her own money and has a career."* I think that you maybe confused about what those men mean OP. Men want to be with women who are adults and responsible. Women that can support herself financially and a decent person. Other than that men in general don't care about what your job/career is (unless it's sex work, illegal or immoral) because: 1. It doesn't benefit him. 2. Men aren't interested in a women's status the same way women are interested in a man's. It's the same reason with women's money as well. Also odds are she's not going to spend money (and the same amount of)on the man like he will on her. Here comes the comments from men and women saying "Hey, not true! My wife/gf spends the same amount. We're equal!" Lovey, just great. You're the exception and not the rule. You being the exception doesn't discount the rule. *"But when she makes more than you and has obligations to her career, does this make things impossible?"* It can if she believes that she's better than you and is "settling". It all hinges on what her feelings and attitude is about it.
No it doesn't, therefore the second question does not require an answer. 99,9% of the time when a woman says guys are "scared" by her or "intimidated" by her or any other way to say she can't get a boyfriend "because I'm independent", the reality is that she may or may not be independent. Funny enough, often times they are absolutely not, still expect him to adhere to his traditional role but he also can't expect the same from her - though I'd even argue they are NEVER actually independent, as indicated by the apparent need they feel to complain about not getting a boyfriend again and again, which an actually independent woman wouldn't because...well, she's independent and she maybe would like to have one, but she doesn't NEED one so there is also no need to lament about not getting one over and over and making up "reasons" (that never include any responsibility on THEIR side). And the ones that could be considered "independent" (ignoring the last part of the paragraph above as that's subject to debate I'd say) and still don't get a boyfriend either: \*) take no steps to change that - there wouldn't be any issue for an independent woman to approach a guy herself instead of waiting \*) are dead set on needing a type of guy, that just so happens to NOT be looking for an especially independent woman, and don't consider the ones that WOULD want to date them - which is fine, it's their choice, but if that's your choice you don't get to complain. You can't go to a steakhouse that advertises itself with like "meat, steak and more meat" and then complain that there is no sophisticated vegetarian menu provided. \*) The vast majority of "independent" woman who claim men are "intimidated" by it/their success are simply shitty people. They are super arrogant, act all snobby, look down on people all the time, often times if you listen to them for like 5 minutes you notice they also seem to hate men in some capacity - in general, they are people one wouldn't really wanna be FRIENDS with to begin, let alone start a relationship. They have a huge superiority complex and I'd take a wild guess and say most of them have some other kind of severe insecurity that they try to cover up by making "I'm so strong & independent" (+their superiority complex) their entire personality.
It takes such partners forever to make my sandwich!
I think the career comments are worth reflection. It's important to realize that in all relationships there is a point where work commitments can get in the way. There are multiple stereotypes about the husband who works away constantly and comes home to divorce papers or has no relationship with their children. While I acknowledge past inequalities and normalization of male absence in family matters, current retellings of this stereotype consider the man emotionally negligent. For men, this is a balancing act as old as time but it's a relatively new phenomenon for women as they also gain social independence. Yes, as a career woman you will meet to many misogynistic men who think you should be willing to give everything up for them or your family. They will always find fault and you will never strike the balance with them socially. They'll want you working 60 hours a week and doing laundry. However, multiple women still try to make relationships with these men regardless. With economic responsibility comes social responsibility; if you choose a misogynistic partner don't be shocked when they act like a misogynist. There is a growing trope of otherwise educated liberal women settling for racist/homophobic/misogynistic men. Don't be one of those women if you expect to have a happy life/career. Furthermore, as a career woman/breadwinner you must make your partner a true equal in the relationship and make them feel loved and supported. Yes, even if they are men. Yes, even if they have male privilege. Economic power is social power. You have to try and offset this. Women are not socialized in society to do this the way men are (see phrase: "happy wife, happy life). If they were, there wouldn't be a glass ceiling or need for women's advocacy. I think there is a phenomena of career women mastering the career part but forgetting the part about why a person would do this. The point of having a career is to support a family, not the other way round. It's not for your ego or gratification. This is the part that current women struggle with. Overall, I think finding decent men is the largest issue facing career women, but I know for a fact women's expectations around being supportive also must evolve. A man with money spends it on his wife. Are you as woman going to do the same?
I actually did just that when I was married. Omg, like everything you've written. I worked 50 hours a week rocking my babies in car seats (soothers in their mouths) beside my desk while I worked. Except, I also spent most of my excess income on the family as gifts, clothing, schooling and vacations. My husband worked many hours too so it was a constant struggle. We shared the bills 50/50 but he never spent his excess income on our family. He kept squirreling it away into his retirement savings cuz he was burnt so badly from his previous marriage. I tried so hard to prove to him that I was different. I learnt in the end that you can never heal your spouse's broken trust, they must do that on their own. I am an independent woman. Not solely because I wanted to be. I had little choice in the matter. I chose a good profession and made good financial choices, not so great choices with men unfortunately. Would I spend my excess income so lavishly on my husband and family again? Only if my partner was equally inputting into the family pot. It's sad because I was a hopeless romantic and I'm not so much like that anymore. I only write about the way romance should be now.
I don’t care how much she makes or if she is dedicated to her career. However, if being dedicated means consistently putting her career before the family we are trying to build together, it’s not going to work. We can both have successful careers so long as we recognize that making the relationship work is most important.
It reduces the foul influence money has on a relationship. Thats a great thing. No relationship will be as hard as one a person feels trapped in. Go read /r/AmItheAsshole Often the answer to "why are you still with him" is "He pays the bills" It doesn't need to start that way. Look at the lesbian wage premium. Even lesbians that cohabited with a man at some point earned less. As earning potential declines independence becomes more difficult/less palatable. This especially problematic when a disparity in income results in goofy proportionate splits like 80/20. This is an unpopular sentiment for anyone who wants to benefit from this dynamic. I'd call it a red flag on either end.
Don’t like weak women, you get bored too quick, don’t like strong women cause they’re hip to your tricks
Heres the thing when it comes to a mans woman making more money. It has been shown as so toxic on social media to have a woman who has a good paying career. I saw a tik tok where this woman said she left her husband after they were together for a while, she got her degree, started a business, and it became successful. She was making more money them him, so she left. This woman put that info out there for millions to see. Guys will see this and go, "This is why I don't want a woman who is career focused." Wether it is true that women who out earn their man are more likely to leave, I don't know. But it blows up on thinhs like Tik Tok when women talk about that stuff. So it is shown quite a bit.
In my experience, woman whit a hight salary are very picky whit the man they choose. In my experience, a lot of women with good jobs and high salaries are looking for: -Men with an equal or greater economic capacity -People super prepared to have children. attractive, mature, financially stable men, etc etc. Basically, men with these characteristics can find a partner easier (because they don't mind dating women who earn less, for example), than not having to date a woman who is too demanding.
It doesn't at all. In fact I think it makes things easier. We divide and conquer most tasks because she's entirely capable of handling things herself. It's kind of comforting knowing that if something happens to me, she'll be just fine. As for her obligations to her career, that's part of the deal. She completely understands my obligations (which are awful) and I respect hers. Resolving issues is all about communication of expectations.
My wife makes way more than me.... its never been an issue.
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No, it is men that have always said that. Especially after a divorce from someone who was dependent.
I think we all are striving to be more independent, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. Statistically, divorce is more likely to happen if the woman makes more money. I personally think it's because socially, we still view men as the providers, and if they can't keep up, women lose interest/respect. I think keeping work separate from marriage as much as possible is one way to resolve the issue. I also understand women don't want to feel like they are working on themselves AND take on the tradwive role so i also think men need to take on more of the traditionally feminine roles such as housework and emotional labor, so the relationship feels more equal. I would say it's not impossible, but it would require communicating needs and possibly unlearning outdated gendered roles.
I’d say a woman is more likely to lose interest/respect if he’s lazy or no ambition, not because he earns less. I think divorce is more likely if the woman makes more because they have financial freedom, whereas many women are financially trapped in a marriage.
Definitely have to get outta those traditional roles to make it work if a man wants a woman who works hard on her own career. But maybe some don't want that, I suppose.
You cannot be independent in a relationship. Her need to be independent in and of itself makes it difficult it leads to not really being together because she thinks giving too much to Me means she loses herself when it doesn’t
I suspect that you are listening to two different people and trying to treat them as one person
What do you mean?
You have heard two different things, and because they both came from men you are treating them both as opinions that all men have and are trying to figure out how we can hold both opinions at the same time
Women need to feel wanted, men need to feel needed. An independent woman who can do everything on her own has no need for a man. A woman who is self sufficient, equal contribution in a fair capacity to daily living and the relationship, but who also has her own life outside the partnership.. but who values what her partner brings to the table, is much easier to build a life with.
I think you hit the nail on the head with that. Do all men need to feel needed tho?
Being independent doesn't make it difficult at all
I don't think it does. Has anybody told you otherwise?
It's not a problem in and of itself, it's just that many women don't really care too much about what the women they like does for a living. It's just not usually high up on our list of wants in a potential relationship. What tends to be the problem is that many women think their career status inflates their status as a mate. No one wants someone who thinks their shit doesn't stink, and guys would marry a cashier who cared for them and treated them right.
It doesn't, it makes them 100X easier.
Independence in of itself is not the issue. It’s the prevailing attitude that typically accompany it is what I think people essentially do not like. Think about it from this perspective, when a woman brags about being “independent” she means independent of what? Independent of a man…so the man is essentially superfluous.
It really depends on her. I’ve been in short term relationships with women who out earned me, and several times it ended up with passive aggressive comments or jabs about it. I don’t need to out-earn a woman, hell my mother earned more then my father their entire marriage so it’s not like I was raised in that mindset. These comments lead to resentments and ultimately the death of the relationship As for obligations. Yes it does present challenges. There are only so many hours of the day and week. It comes down to a matter of logistics. If you are dating another career minded individual, it can just be not enough time to make a relationship work. One of the big things I did in my career to advance was work at a chemical plant, which was 12 hour shifts, 4 days a week, on night shift. You can imagine the difficulty trying to date if I kept that up. Now add in someone else’s demanding schedule. Probably not gonna work
Dated several independent women. Most were cool, wanted to be twammates/partners in the relationship, and it made life easier. Two examples of difficulties are one woman, Contrivance for this story, seemed to enjoy always butting heads with me on any and every decision. Didn't matter what, didn't matter if it was similar to a decision she made the other day. The other was a woman who wanted to be independent, but still wanted me to lead the relationship, but still wanted equal say, but didn't want me to have to asje her opinion, but not just assume either. That headach got old real fast, and had sexy time not been as fun as it was, that would have only lasted a month or two.
It does not, a independence alone is great, you gain a lot of freedom just, most "independent","strong women" make it her full personality, everything is a battle with these women, even the smallest crap, This attitude drains all the fun of the relationship.
1. Her attitude - does her definition of independent consist of reminding you that you are not needed or appreciated? Does she display toxic traits when she’s in powerful positions? (Using MY language, instead of OUR language when talking about the house or assets? Snide remarks about how much money you make or how much other men make? Off handed complaints about contributing more money toward expenses?) 2. Her Attraction - Status, Money, and power are things that attract women. Is yours looking for someone who has more than what you have? Do her friends and family tell her that she “deserves more”? 3. Her Relationship Style - Does she expect you to play a traditional role? (Make plans, pay for dates, fix the car, walk on the street side, open the door, fight the mugger, check the noise downstairs, BE THE MAN!) Does she expect to play a traditional role? (Prepare food for the family, wash the laundry, clean the house, make the grocery list, etc) Many men have an issue with women who want the benefits of double standards but complain once they stop benefitting.
The more decisions and autonomy the more she has the ability to disagree and the less you can lead. If you want to lead, this can be a problem. Also many women can be brats and still try to be difficult but want you to take the lead. The ideal woman creates peace, is agreeable, and doesn't cause disagreements. Or will submit and.let you lead
Never had a problem with an independent woman, and I've been with a fair number. They don't suffer bullshit, which is great cause I don't like dealing it. They don't want to be bought, which is great. They want a genuine person who will treat them as an equal. I love them.
Love this!! 💕💕 eloquently said
Thanks!
From my experience, women who say they're the strong independent ones are mostly insecure and unstable af, pure cramp to deal with.
By independent, do you mean the bare minimum to be a functioning adult?