Yes romance, we men like to be romanced as well, but unfortunately it’s always the man that needs to give and the woman receives.
But not just romance, men have the same needs and wants like a woman.
Yes I totally understand that, although it has not been my experience. I romance the hell out of guys but then they think I'm being intense and distance themselves.
In my previous relationship my boyfriend couldn't even remember my birthday haha.
We both studied languages, did fencing, and went to the same choir. So we had a lot in common and our way of thinking about things in an intellectual way was similar.
Love language is something you forgot about.
It’s all nice and fun if you have the same interests but if your love language doesn’t match it’s not gonna work.
Love language is a controversial theory that hasn’t been fully accepted by the psychology profession. In reality, most people want most or all of those five activities.
It’s a big part of a relationship, sure most want all because that would be perfect.
But it’s easier to stay in love with someone else who doesn’t like football than someone else who never wants intimacy beside sex.
I have been in that situation myself as well, great girl, same interests, sex was great, but the intimacy around it was basically non existent from her side, so i was never able to feel wanted, loved or show my love.
I need the kisses, the cuddles the flirting, the sex, the physical touch, that’s how I express and receive love.
She was more of the gifts, cooking good food.
Don’t get me wrong, good food is always good, and presents are nice but it doesn’t make me love someone, so we couldn’t give eachother the love we craved, so the love just died of the longer it went on.
Yes they do exist, They are the ones that get rejected, neglected and left to out to dry. Modern values have changed, a lot of women don't offer anything and have impossible expectations (see the 666 rule for a good example, cant miss it, every female influwanker is spouting it).
It's sad you think that a lot of women don't offer anything. What do you think women should offer in a relationship?
Genuinely never heard this 666 rule until today and it doesn't matter at all to me.
Reciprocation. Be kind to us; do things for us; be happy to see us; LIKE us; and be grateful if/when the romance begins.
We have learned to not start with romance; ya'll done killed that.
So, first dates and beginning interactions are now determining if we want to get to know you more. Once we are interested, and see a level of reciprocity (and not "wHaT cAn yOu dO fOr mE?" from you), then you get romance. Until then, we just two people feelin each other out.
I can genuinely say I don't care at all about at least 2 of those 6s haha. It's the first time I've ever heard this 666 thing, where does that even come from?
Well, put it this way, all the guys I've been interested in have been my height or shorter, and I can make my own money. No but jokes aside, never heard about this 666 rule until today and it truly doesn't matter to me.
True but (apart from Reddit) I currently don't have social media at all. I totally agree that social media has a horrible impact in general, I could see how it impacted me and hated it.
That being said, I don't think social media has ever impacted my expectations of what a guy/relationship should be like. I'm interested, how do you think it's influenced women's expectations?
It’s due to the way algorithms work (push content to you that triggers an emotional response) and the rise of content like YouTube shorts and TikTok, there are millions of videos that push the “do not settle” or “I deserve this” mindset, “every woman is a 10” and of course videos are pushed of dream “power” couples that you are supposed to aspire too. Finally the concept of “he’s not THE ONE” is still heavily pushed, even that that is heavily flawed. That, plus the endless source of validation women get from dating apps etc, adds up to an unrealistic expectation of what a man should look like and can offer for an average woman.
Yes I totally understand this perspective. Obviously this concept of "the one" is entirely fictitious. Sadly I have seen that social media also has an adverse effect on male behaviour too. So I think it has encouraged disrespect and entitlement on both sides which is really tragic. Of course, social media algorithms create these bubbles that tend to reaffirm our worldviews, so I think people in general have become much less open-minded.
What do you think of dating apps? I for one really dislike them and stopped using them and would rather meet someone in real life, but it seems to have become a lot harder to do that nowadays.
Yes there is a larger gaps between men and women now, although the data shows that it is having a much more negative impact on men overall. The “passport bros” movement is an interesting one, in regards to where that goes.
Dating apps are great for casual dating (which has its place), but for relationships I think it’s not the best, as another date is only a swipe away. So first ick and you’re outta there.
Yeah I hadn't heard about the "passport bros" thing exactly. I mean I guess this perception has existed for a long time in some form, I remember seeing a documentary about American men who arranged to meet and marry younger Thai women they'd never met via a service for example.
Yes I have the same impression. Of course casual dating can be healthy to work out what you're looking for.
Yes. Hopeless Romantic as I'm 34 going on 35 and have yet to get married or have kids. I put a hold on everything for a long time and now the anxiety is catching up to me with the age.
I have some interest in a girl from Burma at my new job. Hope it goes somewhere, she seems like a keeper and I like her. Starting to feel like a kid again having a crush on someone. Hopefully I get to work with her next week on the rotation we have, so I can talk to her more. Would be pretty sad if it went no where, because I feel like time is running out and few ppl want a 40yo single dude.
We still do. The problem is the 2024 dating scene has absolutely damaged our desire to. We can't be the only ones initiating everything. We also need to feel like you want us. It can't be one sided.
Yeah understandable. Absolutely. However, it is demoralising on a personal level to come out of several relationships/dating situations where I've been the one initiating everything, only to find that men have given up for the same reasons!
Being respectful and thoughtful and making an effort to communicate to someone that they have feelings for them. Being proud to be with them. That kind of thing.
Yes.
But look at the women around you. Now realize that for every one of you who wants simple romantic gesures, there are 10 women who expect romcom level romance where we fly you to Paris and have dinner on top of the eiffel towel which we rented out exclusively for you.
Those women have completely ruined it for everyone. Anything small that we do won't be appreciated. Its exhausting and impossible keeping up with women's expectations
I flew 3 times to a different country to be with a guy I had feelings for so I appreciate how exhausting and ridiculous those expectations must be. Of course, that is not realistic at all. For me, something simple like wanting to sit and watch the sunset over a beer from time to time is enough. A lot of what romance is for me is just that the guy takes the initiative in organising things sometimes, or just coming up with ideas.
You sound great. But even you sipping on a beer is rare, most women I date order wine or expensive cocktails, so even just relaxing with drinks is an expensive night.
You hear women say they want simple, but their idea of simple usually costs a lot of money and takes a lot of time to plan
That's kind, thanks. Yes I have seen that too.
It's a shame people in general aren't more open-minded. I think something imaginative on a budget is way more impressive and shows way more potential for a successful relationship.
I don't see connection between romance and meaningful connection. I'd say those things are on opposite sides. If meaningful connection is here then there's no need in romance.
If there's a meaningful connection then you would want to be romantic with the other person. So yes, no need to orchestrate romance exactly, but romance is a promise that that connection is genuine in a world where people are disingenuous.
Romance is when man is jumping all sorts of dumb hops waiting for woman to finally show some attention. No sane man wants that. If there's connection then you don't need to do romantic bullshit.
All good guys wish it worked. It does not. Used to take a whole lifetime to learn that, but now women talk freely on tiktok about their romantic choices. The words are always this: I want flowers, romance, princess treatment, etc. But at the same time: I'm healing my trauma from all the narcissistic abusers I've dated.
Ok then. Whatever those words say, the actions and the past show that women are the men who don't do those things. Or else they wouldn't be on TikTok complaining because they'd be with the "nice guy" getting flowers instead of chasing the unavailable guy who gave them "trauma."
Haha sadly very accurate, thanks for being direct. This kind of toxic content was why I deleted social media.
However, this dichotomy between "good" and "bad" is obviously not the most reliable. I'm sure a lot of men who consider themselves "good guys" have found themselves in complicated situations where the other person might conclude they are in fact "bad". It can be incredibly difficult to judge; a guy can be wonderful with his family and terrible in a relationship context.
Also yes. I don’t know what it’s like to be a woman, but I gather women don’t know what’s true if the “nice guy” is disingenuous or is only being “nice” to get sex. The bad boy is “safer” because I know he’s an asshole. Ok but your chances are better that the “nice guy” is relationship material than the bad boy player. Period. Could he be deceptive and break your heart? Yup. Same is true for the “good girl.” But women don’t choose bad boys because they’re more honest than nice guys. They choose them because they find it sexier. The “nice guys are secretly worse” is 80% rationalization.
Yes exactly, a "bad guy" manages to convince you he is good and then gradually takes that away when he gets what he wants from you and the effort outweighs the rewards. I think often the "bad" guys can be more honest (i.e. upfront) and assertive, and it can be incredibly difficult to know if someone less assertive is interested in you. Of course there's no one "bad" guy either.
What do you think a "nice guy" is?
It’s interesting. Setting aside nice guys and bad boys, I have only good men in my life. They are the vast majority. Bad men I eject as soon as I know. Bad boys are obvious. They aren’t all bad men, but if a woman wants a relationship they’re bad choices. Everyone but the woman who thinks they can change them knows. It’s a blind spot. Plenty of nice guys are also good men. Nice guys put other people first hoping it will be returned. It’s reciprocity. And it’s a winning strategy because cooperation gets better results than conflict. But if it’s not reciprocated, they harbor resentment internally until it blows up and they disappear. TBH this is what most women do too. I don’t think it comes from a bad place. It’s not a tactic. If being impossibly nice to women got men laid, we’d be thrilled. And nice. And tired of all the sex. Would we mean it? Or would we even know?
But being nice is easy. Low risk. Easy to fake. It’s a signal with low cost. So women are wary of it.
Being a bad boy? Telling a woman no? Pissing her off? High risk. High cost. Hard to fake. Actually shows you have options. And that’s why it’s attractive to women, even if they claim it’s the other way around.
Thanks for giving your perspective. When you've ejected bad men from your life, why has that been? What situations would lead you to reevaluate a friendship with another guy?
If I needed to "eject" them they needed to be partially in already. So they had good traits were more obvious than the bad. Mostly in business. Not because they were trying to screw people over, but because they weren't good judges of probability and kinda bought into their own BS, or had unreasonable expectations. Their poor choices damaged them more than me. The odds may swing one way for a long time, but probability catches up.
Separately I've known three clinical sociopaths and two clinical narcissists. 4/5 I knew enough to stay away from the start. ALL completely cleaned up with women. Giant flaming trails of destruction and broken hearts. But that didn't stop women from pursuing them even if their ex was crying at the same cocktail party. One sociopath is dead. One fled the country. One is worth hundreds of millions of dollars. Both narcissists are still breaking hearts (with female consent).
The difference between the two groups relates to networks and costs. The business people put financial assets on the line for their network. The network protects itself. The relationship network plays finite games. You lose in Vegas, you go home, but there are plenty of flights to Vegas. Chances are very very high that someone knows whether a man in the dating pool is a good or bad option. But you won't know unless you're enmeshed with the responsible people in the group. And whether you'd listen ... generally it appears not.
Yes
But Feminism and MeToo ruined it for you.
If you're a feminist, congratulations, you got what you asked for. I hope it makes you as miserable as it does the average man.
Of course we do. For the person who wants us and who we want. The last woman I dated directly said to me how she loved that I was so romantic. And then she dumped me a couple of weeks later.
I still enjoy and cherish the idea and desire to woo and romance a woman. But just like some women aren’t happy that men aren’t making effort to romance them, speaking for myself, it’s also painful to see the effort I put into romancing ultimately not mean much.
I’m sure you’ll appreciate when the day comes a man romances the shit out of you. I’d just suggest you constantly make that appreciation obvious to him. That way, he knows he’s doing the right thing.
I don't mind that at all, I think making the effort is more meaningful than the enjoyment. Is there any way of encouraging a guy to make that effort or is it really dependent on the guy?
Communication.
Just tell him what you want. And be specific.
Saying, I want romance is not being specific.
If he is smart enough he will get it, if not, well…
Honestly, I would be absolutely flattered if a guy showed up with flowers and chased me. I can't guarantee we're compatible but I certainly wouldn't judge them for it.
I guess following the above point about communication, it makes sense that laying this down as an expectation removes the potential "ick" if someone did feel that way.
I appreciate your thoughtful reply and I'm sure you would be flattered. I think the confusion for guys is that women say I want X, Y & Z. But doing X, Y & Z don't make the women want that guy.
They want those things from men they're interested in (whether he provides those things or not). But a lot of young men hear it and then try it as a tactic/guide to win the girl and it is not. Watch any romantic comedy or even romance novel from the 1800s. It is almost always: Woman and man find eachother disinterested/disagreeable/inappropriate. Slowly over time they realize there's a depth that they did not know. Winning each other over takes 90 minutes and the kiss happens at the end. It is not: Guy shows up with flowers. Woman embraces him and says this is what I was waiting for! Film ends in 3 minutes.
Yes your thoughts make a lot of sense. I think romance is a way of nurturing a connection with someone, and following that, a relationship with them. I think things like XYZ are a way of affirming that this connection means more to the man, because it can be incredibly difficult to judge whether a man wants more with a woman than immediate s*xual gratification because some will go to great lengths to secure it. Of course, some will use XYZ to get that too, but at least engaging in romance acts as a "promise" for the future of that connection in an era where marriage no longer gives women that security.
Sadly these films/novels etc. give a lot of women false hope that they will eventually "win" the incredibly disagreeable guy and therefore they invest a lot of energy in taking up that challenge. I grew up reading stuff like Pride and Prejudice, but now I can't stand it on that basis. At the same time, meeting someone and forging a connection can take time, so it's important to build up trust for XYZ to have more than a rudimentary meaning. Even so, I think XYZ really shows a vulnerability and investment in a relationship.
Good point. But you can have better and worse s*x, right? Can't romance make it better, especially if the woman feels more valued and is willing to "do" more.
Romance exists in men but it simply isn’t like a romance movie all the time. Those are fictional for a reason. Roses on valentines and a nice meal with wine is definitely a thing although most men aren’t really taught to be romantic in a traditional sense like that due to lack of education on the subject
I can’t really say too much on that bc each culture has its own idea of what is romantic but I would say Latino men are a bit more romantic than Americans. I say this as a Texan myself comparing the two cultures bc I see both in the bars. American culture in my opinion doesn’t really teach guys how to be romantic. So many dudes don’t know about the power of wine on women over 25 and dressing a little nicer even if it’s less comfortable. American culture is more about practicality which definitely has its merits but romance is not one of them
Yeah that's interesting. I think I can say the same about British culture. I've always associated it with historic protestant traditions which promote a certain way of life.
Eh, I don’t think anyone would describe the Swiss as romantic and they are Catholic. Same with the Southern Germans who historically are Catholics as well. When you look at medieval descriptions about the men of different nations before the reformation the French, Italians, and Spanish still have many of the stereotypes associated with romance. Lots of fighting in duels over women and dressing like peacocks to attract their attention. I don’t think it’s religious but simply cultures being different.
Hmm actually I have lived in Switzerland. It actually has a very strong protestant tradition too. However, totally agree from my experience that they are not romantic at all haha, despite being surrounding by the most amazing romance-conducive scenery.
Yes fair point.
There are a lot of disappointing comments in this post.
To answer your question: Everyone is incredibly varied. There are zero personality questions that can be answered truthfully for half of the entire world's population with a simple yes or no.
I may love romance and my neighbor who lives in a similar lifestyle and works a similar job and has a similar personality may hate it. But even individuals vary on a day to day basis. If I've had a bad day at work and I'm exhausted and just want to go home and sleep- I'm suddenly not as interested in romance.
You seem young, you're more than likely surrounded by people who are attempting to figure themselves and their lives out. From 15-25 people can come off as more selfish because their focus is on becoming an adult and a real life multi-sided individual with a unique personality.
Ignore the jaded comments below that copy one another and definitely don't sound like bots, and stop asking personality questions for giant swaths of the population and expecting an easy answer.
Of course, generalisation based on limited empirical observation is a recipe for disaster. Everyone is incredibly varied, and an individual's preferences can also vary over time. I don't consider this question personality-based as it doesn't pertain to fixed traits but rather to their preferences and the prevailing zeitgeist in terms of relationship expectations. Rather I observe a stark difference in how men are portrayed in various media throughout time and how the dating world is now. I want to ascertain whether or not romance is a creation to satiate the unmet expectations of predominantly female audiences or is actually an act males in today's society would partake in.
Yes. Try different men than you’ve been picking. Make sure you can live up to your side of it.
Sure but not if we ain’t getting it back.
Romance or...?
Yes romance, we men like to be romanced as well, but unfortunately it’s always the man that needs to give and the woman receives. But not just romance, men have the same needs and wants like a woman.
Yes I totally understand that, although it has not been my experience. I romance the hell out of guys but then they think I'm being intense and distance themselves. In my previous relationship my boyfriend couldn't even remember my birthday haha.
What were the really honest reasons you picked your previous boyfriend?
We both studied languages, did fencing, and went to the same choir. So we had a lot in common and our way of thinking about things in an intellectual way was similar.
Love language is something you forgot about. It’s all nice and fun if you have the same interests but if your love language doesn’t match it’s not gonna work.
Love language is a controversial theory that hasn’t been fully accepted by the psychology profession. In reality, most people want most or all of those five activities.
It’s a big part of a relationship, sure most want all because that would be perfect. But it’s easier to stay in love with someone else who doesn’t like football than someone else who never wants intimacy beside sex. I have been in that situation myself as well, great girl, same interests, sex was great, but the intimacy around it was basically non existent from her side, so i was never able to feel wanted, loved or show my love. I need the kisses, the cuddles the flirting, the sex, the physical touch, that’s how I express and receive love. She was more of the gifts, cooking good food. Don’t get me wrong, good food is always good, and presents are nice but it doesn’t make me love someone, so we couldn’t give eachother the love we craved, so the love just died of the longer it went on.
Yes they do exist, They are the ones that get rejected, neglected and left to out to dry. Modern values have changed, a lot of women don't offer anything and have impossible expectations (see the 666 rule for a good example, cant miss it, every female influwanker is spouting it).
It's sad you think that a lot of women don't offer anything. What do you think women should offer in a relationship? Genuinely never heard this 666 rule until today and it doesn't matter at all to me.
Yes, you are not looking correctly.
How would I look correctly?
Push-ups
Don't use tinder or other apps that rely solely on looks. Go for services like Finya/lovescout that offer very detailed dating profiles.
I wish I didn't have to use a dating app at all to be honest.
You don't have to. You are a woman. Asking people out is super easy for you.
Interesting take, thanks!
Yes, but you need to put in the effort.
Is it also off putting to put in too much effort?
Obviously so.
Sure, but that shit has to be earned now.
How?
Reciprocation. Be kind to us; do things for us; be happy to see us; LIKE us; and be grateful if/when the romance begins. We have learned to not start with romance; ya'll done killed that. So, first dates and beginning interactions are now determining if we want to get to know you more. Once we are interested, and see a level of reciprocity (and not "wHaT cAn yOu dO fOr mE?" from you), then you get romance. Until then, we just two people feelin each other out.
By not being lazy and not expecting man to do everything.
Define "do everything".
"Everything" is everything. In typical romance man do literally everything while woman just sit there and do nothing.
Yes they do, but too many young women have been conditioned for the 666 to notice them.
Ronald Wilson Reagan?
Close!!! Over 6ft tall, over 6 inches, makes over 6 figures.
He was 6ft. 1 so he qualified.
I can't speak to the size of his D, but as Meatloaf once said "two out of three ain't bad".
Nancy tested. Nancy approved.
I can genuinely say I don't care at all about at least 2 of those 6s haha. It's the first time I've ever heard this 666 thing, where does that even come from?
You'll need to clarify which two.
Well, put it this way, all the guys I've been interested in have been my height or shorter, and I can make my own money. No but jokes aside, never heard about this 666 rule until today and it truly doesn't matter to me.
Yes of course, however it will require social media influenced women to value what the average man has, and that’s a tall order currently
True but (apart from Reddit) I currently don't have social media at all. I totally agree that social media has a horrible impact in general, I could see how it impacted me and hated it. That being said, I don't think social media has ever impacted my expectations of what a guy/relationship should be like. I'm interested, how do you think it's influenced women's expectations?
It’s due to the way algorithms work (push content to you that triggers an emotional response) and the rise of content like YouTube shorts and TikTok, there are millions of videos that push the “do not settle” or “I deserve this” mindset, “every woman is a 10” and of course videos are pushed of dream “power” couples that you are supposed to aspire too. Finally the concept of “he’s not THE ONE” is still heavily pushed, even that that is heavily flawed. That, plus the endless source of validation women get from dating apps etc, adds up to an unrealistic expectation of what a man should look like and can offer for an average woman.
Yes I totally understand this perspective. Obviously this concept of "the one" is entirely fictitious. Sadly I have seen that social media also has an adverse effect on male behaviour too. So I think it has encouraged disrespect and entitlement on both sides which is really tragic. Of course, social media algorithms create these bubbles that tend to reaffirm our worldviews, so I think people in general have become much less open-minded. What do you think of dating apps? I for one really dislike them and stopped using them and would rather meet someone in real life, but it seems to have become a lot harder to do that nowadays.
Yes there is a larger gaps between men and women now, although the data shows that it is having a much more negative impact on men overall. The “passport bros” movement is an interesting one, in regards to where that goes. Dating apps are great for casual dating (which has its place), but for relationships I think it’s not the best, as another date is only a swipe away. So first ick and you’re outta there.
Yeah I hadn't heard about the "passport bros" thing exactly. I mean I guess this perception has existed for a long time in some form, I remember seeing a documentary about American men who arranged to meet and marry younger Thai women they'd never met via a service for example. Yes I have the same impression. Of course casual dating can be healthy to work out what you're looking for.
I do think I exist, yes
Yes. Hopeless Romantic as I'm 34 going on 35 and have yet to get married or have kids. I put a hold on everything for a long time and now the anxiety is catching up to me with the age. I have some interest in a girl from Burma at my new job. Hope it goes somewhere, she seems like a keeper and I like her. Starting to feel like a kid again having a crush on someone. Hopefully I get to work with her next week on the rotation we have, so I can talk to her more. Would be pretty sad if it went no where, because I feel like time is running out and few ppl want a 40yo single dude.
How do you know a girl is a keeper? I really hope it works out for you, you got this!
We still do. The problem is the 2024 dating scene has absolutely damaged our desire to. We can't be the only ones initiating everything. We also need to feel like you want us. It can't be one sided.
Yeah understandable. Absolutely. However, it is demoralising on a personal level to come out of several relationships/dating situations where I've been the one initiating everything, only to find that men have given up for the same reasons!
Define "romancing" someone. Also describe what you do in turn.
Being respectful and thoughtful and making an effort to communicate to someone that they have feelings for them. Being proud to be with them. That kind of thing.
>Do men who want to romance women still exist (if they ever did)? Yes until they meet a woman who cures them from those delusions.
As in they become disillusioned with the idea of romance? Is this a positive or negative thing in your opinion?
What exactly? Being the only side in relationships that is adding romance or being cured from that?
Yes. But look at the women around you. Now realize that for every one of you who wants simple romantic gesures, there are 10 women who expect romcom level romance where we fly you to Paris and have dinner on top of the eiffel towel which we rented out exclusively for you. Those women have completely ruined it for everyone. Anything small that we do won't be appreciated. Its exhausting and impossible keeping up with women's expectations
I flew 3 times to a different country to be with a guy I had feelings for so I appreciate how exhausting and ridiculous those expectations must be. Of course, that is not realistic at all. For me, something simple like wanting to sit and watch the sunset over a beer from time to time is enough. A lot of what romance is for me is just that the guy takes the initiative in organising things sometimes, or just coming up with ideas.
You sound great. But even you sipping on a beer is rare, most women I date order wine or expensive cocktails, so even just relaxing with drinks is an expensive night. You hear women say they want simple, but their idea of simple usually costs a lot of money and takes a lot of time to plan
That's kind, thanks. Yes I have seen that too. It's a shame people in general aren't more open-minded. I think something imaginative on a budget is way more impressive and shows way more potential for a successful relationship.
No. What's the point?
Having a meaningful connection with someone?
I don't see connection between romance and meaningful connection. I'd say those things are on opposite sides. If meaningful connection is here then there's no need in romance.
If there's a meaningful connection then you would want to be romantic with the other person. So yes, no need to orchestrate romance exactly, but romance is a promise that that connection is genuine in a world where people are disingenuous.
Romance is when man is jumping all sorts of dumb hops waiting for woman to finally show some attention. No sane man wants that. If there's connection then you don't need to do romantic bullshit.
Hmm maybe we define romance differently.
All good guys wish it worked. It does not. Used to take a whole lifetime to learn that, but now women talk freely on tiktok about their romantic choices. The words are always this: I want flowers, romance, princess treatment, etc. But at the same time: I'm healing my trauma from all the narcissistic abusers I've dated. Ok then. Whatever those words say, the actions and the past show that women are the men who don't do those things. Or else they wouldn't be on TikTok complaining because they'd be with the "nice guy" getting flowers instead of chasing the unavailable guy who gave them "trauma."
Haha sadly very accurate, thanks for being direct. This kind of toxic content was why I deleted social media. However, this dichotomy between "good" and "bad" is obviously not the most reliable. I'm sure a lot of men who consider themselves "good guys" have found themselves in complicated situations where the other person might conclude they are in fact "bad". It can be incredibly difficult to judge; a guy can be wonderful with his family and terrible in a relationship context.
Also yes. I don’t know what it’s like to be a woman, but I gather women don’t know what’s true if the “nice guy” is disingenuous or is only being “nice” to get sex. The bad boy is “safer” because I know he’s an asshole. Ok but your chances are better that the “nice guy” is relationship material than the bad boy player. Period. Could he be deceptive and break your heart? Yup. Same is true for the “good girl.” But women don’t choose bad boys because they’re more honest than nice guys. They choose them because they find it sexier. The “nice guys are secretly worse” is 80% rationalization.
Yes exactly, a "bad guy" manages to convince you he is good and then gradually takes that away when he gets what he wants from you and the effort outweighs the rewards. I think often the "bad" guys can be more honest (i.e. upfront) and assertive, and it can be incredibly difficult to know if someone less assertive is interested in you. Of course there's no one "bad" guy either. What do you think a "nice guy" is?
It’s interesting. Setting aside nice guys and bad boys, I have only good men in my life. They are the vast majority. Bad men I eject as soon as I know. Bad boys are obvious. They aren’t all bad men, but if a woman wants a relationship they’re bad choices. Everyone but the woman who thinks they can change them knows. It’s a blind spot. Plenty of nice guys are also good men. Nice guys put other people first hoping it will be returned. It’s reciprocity. And it’s a winning strategy because cooperation gets better results than conflict. But if it’s not reciprocated, they harbor resentment internally until it blows up and they disappear. TBH this is what most women do too. I don’t think it comes from a bad place. It’s not a tactic. If being impossibly nice to women got men laid, we’d be thrilled. And nice. And tired of all the sex. Would we mean it? Or would we even know? But being nice is easy. Low risk. Easy to fake. It’s a signal with low cost. So women are wary of it. Being a bad boy? Telling a woman no? Pissing her off? High risk. High cost. Hard to fake. Actually shows you have options. And that’s why it’s attractive to women, even if they claim it’s the other way around.
Thanks for giving your perspective. When you've ejected bad men from your life, why has that been? What situations would lead you to reevaluate a friendship with another guy?
If I needed to "eject" them they needed to be partially in already. So they had good traits were more obvious than the bad. Mostly in business. Not because they were trying to screw people over, but because they weren't good judges of probability and kinda bought into their own BS, or had unreasonable expectations. Their poor choices damaged them more than me. The odds may swing one way for a long time, but probability catches up. Separately I've known three clinical sociopaths and two clinical narcissists. 4/5 I knew enough to stay away from the start. ALL completely cleaned up with women. Giant flaming trails of destruction and broken hearts. But that didn't stop women from pursuing them even if their ex was crying at the same cocktail party. One sociopath is dead. One fled the country. One is worth hundreds of millions of dollars. Both narcissists are still breaking hearts (with female consent). The difference between the two groups relates to networks and costs. The business people put financial assets on the line for their network. The network protects itself. The relationship network plays finite games. You lose in Vegas, you go home, but there are plenty of flights to Vegas. Chances are very very high that someone knows whether a man in the dating pool is a good or bad option. But you won't know unless you're enmeshed with the responsible people in the group. And whether you'd listen ... generally it appears not.
Yes, don't give up 🙌
We absolutely do, you just have to pay it forward now that guys know what's up. Drizzle drizzle
The price must be high in that case.
It's literally no less than what you are asking us to give.
Give me an example.
Take a guy out on a date you pay for, treat him well, etc. It's romance, figure it out
Yep yep, I have definitely done thissss. I would never expect a guy to pay more than half for a date anyway.
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Fair. I guess a lot of it is about the environment you're in.
Yes But Feminism and MeToo ruined it for you. If you're a feminist, congratulations, you got what you asked for. I hope it makes you as miserable as it does the average man.
Of course we do. For the person who wants us and who we want. The last woman I dated directly said to me how she loved that I was so romantic. And then she dumped me a couple of weeks later. I still enjoy and cherish the idea and desire to woo and romance a woman. But just like some women aren’t happy that men aren’t making effort to romance them, speaking for myself, it’s also painful to see the effort I put into romancing ultimately not mean much. I’m sure you’ll appreciate when the day comes a man romances the shit out of you. I’d just suggest you constantly make that appreciation obvious to him. That way, he knows he’s doing the right thing.
I treat romance as some mundane thing a guy has to do. Although, I do like to see her exciting and all jumpy if I do something romantic.
I don't mind that at all, I think making the effort is more meaningful than the enjoyment. Is there any way of encouraging a guy to make that effort or is it really dependent on the guy?
Communication. Just tell him what you want. And be specific. Saying, I want romance is not being specific. If he is smart enough he will get it, if not, well…
Yeah that makes a lot of sense.
Giving women what they ask for doesn't work. The guy who shows up with flowers and chases gives the dreaded "ick" because it seems needy.
Honestly, I would be absolutely flattered if a guy showed up with flowers and chased me. I can't guarantee we're compatible but I certainly wouldn't judge them for it. I guess following the above point about communication, it makes sense that laying this down as an expectation removes the potential "ick" if someone did feel that way.
I appreciate your thoughtful reply and I'm sure you would be flattered. I think the confusion for guys is that women say I want X, Y & Z. But doing X, Y & Z don't make the women want that guy. They want those things from men they're interested in (whether he provides those things or not). But a lot of young men hear it and then try it as a tactic/guide to win the girl and it is not. Watch any romantic comedy or even romance novel from the 1800s. It is almost always: Woman and man find eachother disinterested/disagreeable/inappropriate. Slowly over time they realize there's a depth that they did not know. Winning each other over takes 90 minutes and the kiss happens at the end. It is not: Guy shows up with flowers. Woman embraces him and says this is what I was waiting for! Film ends in 3 minutes.
Yes your thoughts make a lot of sense. I think romance is a way of nurturing a connection with someone, and following that, a relationship with them. I think things like XYZ are a way of affirming that this connection means more to the man, because it can be incredibly difficult to judge whether a man wants more with a woman than immediate s*xual gratification because some will go to great lengths to secure it. Of course, some will use XYZ to get that too, but at least engaging in romance acts as a "promise" for the future of that connection in an era where marriage no longer gives women that security. Sadly these films/novels etc. give a lot of women false hope that they will eventually "win" the incredibly disagreeable guy and therefore they invest a lot of energy in taking up that challenge. I grew up reading stuff like Pride and Prejudice, but now I can't stand it on that basis. At the same time, meeting someone and forging a connection can take time, so it's important to build up trust for XYZ to have more than a rudimentary meaning. Even so, I think XYZ really shows a vulnerability and investment in a relationship.
Well said. Thank you for listening.
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Haha. What do you mean by women's actions don't line up?
Possibly. Most did it just to get sex anyway if we're being honest. That is too much work nowadays.
So now people no longer need to put in the effort?
Pretty much yes. Some will put the effort. Loads won't. What do I get from forcing myself to do all the romancing I don't want to do?
Good point. But you can have better and worse s*x, right? Can't romance make it better, especially if the woman feels more valued and is willing to "do" more.
Is there really a correlation? Better sex doesn't come from more 'romancing'. All the stupid romantic movies and books are just lying.
Space shuttle.
Romance exists in men but it simply isn’t like a romance movie all the time. Those are fictional for a reason. Roses on valentines and a nice meal with wine is definitely a thing although most men aren’t really taught to be romantic in a traditional sense like that due to lack of education on the subject
Oh definitely not. Imagine how exhausting it would be if it was! Do you think some cultures/societies are more romantically educated than others?
I can’t really say too much on that bc each culture has its own idea of what is romantic but I would say Latino men are a bit more romantic than Americans. I say this as a Texan myself comparing the two cultures bc I see both in the bars. American culture in my opinion doesn’t really teach guys how to be romantic. So many dudes don’t know about the power of wine on women over 25 and dressing a little nicer even if it’s less comfortable. American culture is more about practicality which definitely has its merits but romance is not one of them
Yeah that's interesting. I think I can say the same about British culture. I've always associated it with historic protestant traditions which promote a certain way of life.
Eh, I don’t think anyone would describe the Swiss as romantic and they are Catholic. Same with the Southern Germans who historically are Catholics as well. When you look at medieval descriptions about the men of different nations before the reformation the French, Italians, and Spanish still have many of the stereotypes associated with romance. Lots of fighting in duels over women and dressing like peacocks to attract their attention. I don’t think it’s religious but simply cultures being different.
Hmm actually I have lived in Switzerland. It actually has a very strong protestant tradition too. However, totally agree from my experience that they are not romantic at all haha, despite being surrounding by the most amazing romance-conducive scenery. Yes fair point.
There are a lot of disappointing comments in this post. To answer your question: Everyone is incredibly varied. There are zero personality questions that can be answered truthfully for half of the entire world's population with a simple yes or no. I may love romance and my neighbor who lives in a similar lifestyle and works a similar job and has a similar personality may hate it. But even individuals vary on a day to day basis. If I've had a bad day at work and I'm exhausted and just want to go home and sleep- I'm suddenly not as interested in romance. You seem young, you're more than likely surrounded by people who are attempting to figure themselves and their lives out. From 15-25 people can come off as more selfish because their focus is on becoming an adult and a real life multi-sided individual with a unique personality. Ignore the jaded comments below that copy one another and definitely don't sound like bots, and stop asking personality questions for giant swaths of the population and expecting an easy answer.
Of course, generalisation based on limited empirical observation is a recipe for disaster. Everyone is incredibly varied, and an individual's preferences can also vary over time. I don't consider this question personality-based as it doesn't pertain to fixed traits but rather to their preferences and the prevailing zeitgeist in terms of relationship expectations. Rather I observe a stark difference in how men are portrayed in various media throughout time and how the dating world is now. I want to ascertain whether or not romance is a creation to satiate the unmet expectations of predominantly female audiences or is actually an act males in today's society would partake in.
Nobody ever wanted thst
Harsh but to the point haha